With The Perrys - How to Help the Church be Sacred, Soft, and Safe with Pricelis Dominguez

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Many of us have experienced hurt within the church or have had seasons of disconnection from a local faith community. Even if we haven’t, we probably see areas where our current church context could be improved. So what does a healthy church look like and how can we be a part of its flourishing?   Pricelis Dominguez talks with the Perrys about her own church experience, discussing things like pastoral red flags, how Scripture ought to be used, discerning church preferences versus priorities, and remaining hopeful in seasons of despair.   Check out Pricelis’ new book, Being a Sanctuary: The Radical Way for the Body of Christ to Be Sacred, Soft, and Safe – https://www.pricelispd.com/basbook And there’s still time to grab tickets to Sowers Summit 2024, happening September 26-28 in New York City (and available via livestream). With The Perrys listeners get $45 off in-person registration (use code PERRYS) or $25 off virtual tickets (use code PERRYSPOD). https://www.sowerssummit.com/ Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, St. Nantes, how art thou? What up with y'all? How are you, Bucco? I'm doing good. You got you little knees out? I do. I ain't put no lotion on or nothing. But you don't look ashy, though. I appreciate that.

It can use some lotion. Yeah. But it ain't ashy. You know, I was actually thrown off or taking the back, rather. I say something crazy. No, I had given the kids a bath and you, you know, wanted to help or whatever, and you start putting clothes on stage. And I said, she needs lotion.

You got to put lotion on the body. And he was like, you put lotion on your body every time you take a bath. And I said, yeah, like, that's not a, that's not a thing. Like, people just be getting out the tub and just putting the clothes on raw dog like that. Raw dog. Not raw dog. Like, you just be raw in your skin. You be raw on your skin like that.

And so I think we should talk about that for a second. No. You don't be putting lotion on your body? I do when I go outside. I put lotion on the places that people can see. That don't feel dry? Because it would feel dry. No, I put lotion on sometimes when I feel like it.

I'd be putting lotion on. You know, it's crazy. I've never seen you put on lotion. We've been married for 10 years. No, I've never seen you lotion your body. I got natural, I got natural, like, soft, oily skin. How long you think that's going to last? My skin, like, produced, like, natural, like, moisture.

You know what I'm not being needing it like that. What's funny is... You know what I... You know what I... Okay, so you don't know why I don't put on lotion. It's the feeling. Like, sometimes I get out the shower. I don't like still feeling wet.

I think like the lotion still kind of makes your body. And so when you put, you know, I like to dry, like my body to be dry. That's the best time because it absorbs into your skin. I know, but I just kind of like my body to be dry with the dry towel. And then I like to put my clothes on. It's dry, all right. And then I don't like to feel like, oh, it's like my... clothes sticking to my body because the lotion is with lotion on.

I don't like that feeling. So, yeah. Anyways. I just, I just personally think it's a matter of preference. It's not whatever feels good to your conscience. But I just think like lotion and oils, it makes your body feel better. That's all. Okay.

How long does your body feel good? We're here with the Selleys, the author of. That's what really matters. Being a sanctuary. What's subtitle? The Radical Way for the Body. of Christ to be sacred, soft, and safe. You made that sound so like welcoming.

I did. They don't realize it's some swords in here. Come on, author. Is this your first book? Yes. First traditionally published book. Is it your first published book? Yeah.

Yeah. Because I know you got some other works out there. Why is this the first published one? Of all the other books that you've created, all the resources you could create, why is this the one you chose to go with with a publisher? So the other one was like a private house and it was the children's book, which I gave you. And then the other one is just through my ministry. So a lot of people do like self-publishing like through their ministry.

So yeah, I just did it through my ministry. And originally this book was only about healing like from church. And then I realized there's a lot of books about that. Maybe maybe not a lot, but a few. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to write about something else. That's dope. That's dope. So we met Ms.

Sosely's here last year. Yes. In New York. Yes. Soar Summit, her conference in New York. When is the next one? September 26 to 28th. And registration is still open?

What's the website? SowerSummer.com. Okay. And we got virtual options. Okay. Because some people are scared New York, you know? I don't know why. It was a good conference to be a part of.

But let me say, like, I went with Preston because Preston was speaking on a panel. And I think I randomly decided to go, because I really don't go with Preston to his. events. Like it just is not a thing. But I randomly decided to go. And I was just so impressed. It wasn't random. We wanted to do a photo shoot together in New York. We did a photo shoot together. No, but the photo shoot came from me saying

let me leverage that time. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. And it becomes a business thing. That's how you save money on the hotel. So it's like, I was like, let me do that. But I was impressed not because of like you had the bomb speakers, or like it wasn't antics. It wasn't pretentious. And that was the thing.

I think I told you that. I was like, this is so unpretentious. It's just authentically sincere and thoughtful and mindful and godly and diverse and like beautiful and all this stuff. And all this stuff. And y'all was doing worship songs and like Asian languages. I said, I don't know what they're saying, but it's ministered to my spirit. It was just like all the stuff. A conference had had a lot of intentionality.

Yes. It was very intentional, very thoughtful. And so I think that like when getting to know you more, you can just tell you're a very thoughtful woman. And your conference is a reflection of your thoughtfulness. And so it's what we saw. I have a lot of questions. Would you say, because this is what I thought, that even some of the intentionality is correcting ways that you've seen conferences done wrong. Talk about that.

Because you talked about green rooms and all this stuff, like talk about that. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard because it's like I don't want it to be like seeming like critiquing, right? Like, oh, everything I'm doing. It's like it's the better way, something like that. But it's just like, yeah, I'm just trying to create an example because I think sometimes too, like we critique and then we don't give people examples. Or we critique and then we don't actually show another way. We're just like out here pointing fingers. So it's also like kind of showing a different way and showing a different version of things. So yeah, kind of like not don't pay attention, you know, so much to the speakers.

literally even on the website, on the page of the speakers that says, we know what speakers you love on and stuff don't come for who you're going to listen to, right? Come to know that the Lord will speak to you and you will be edified and the church will be edified. And so I try to just do that in a way that by example versus just like directly, even though it does include like critiquing, but just really living by example, but also doing by example. Do you like green rooms?

I think. So I've worked at churches. I never plan on working at churches, but I've worked at churches. And I think I understand the purpose in some way. But I also think in some spaces, in a lot of spaces, it can create division. It can create a separation. It can create, honestly, even levels of dignity of how people are treated. It can create room for othering.

And so specifically, for example, in a conference, conferences, for example, that I've been to, it's just like, it's only for like these two people. Now, do I get that a speaker needs a moment before they go on stage, all that kind of stuff? Absolutely. But I do think it creates room for people both to hide, but also for people to just not interact with one another. And we're the body of Christ. Like, we're not, you know, different levels of that.

So I think the green room can do that. So for example, at Solar Summit, the green room is for speakers, but it's also for volunteers. It's also for nursing moms. It's also for the team, right? Like, it's just for several people. And then if the speaker wants a room, there is a room in the green room. So that's kind of like what I feel maybe we can reprogram when it comes to green rooms. Yeah.

And is your reasoning behind that to like kind of cultivate like community, you know, relationships. Yeah. You know, I think that's dope. Yeah. At last year, so it was just really beautiful at last year's sort of summit to see people connect. Also what I really loved and was really healing for me is that it was people from different parts of my world. And also people who had been. in the previous churches that I had worked for and were part of that were pretty abusive and unhealthy.

And they came together to a space with a really yes to me because some of them were over church things. And they said just even being in the green room with one another and being in that space was healing, was edifying, was refreshing. So I think it's also like it can be that kind of space, right? Like I haven't heard a green room to do that. But I think it can be that too. Yeah. I have some questions. I mean, I have some thoughts about that.

One more random question. then we're going to get into the book. Because your post are coming to my mind. I feel like you made a post one time about lights. Lights. Yeah, like, so lights at church. During the service. Yeah.

Talk to us about that. What do you think about it? Because you be calling out stuff, you be calling attention stuff and I be going to church like, huh. Yeah, you be thinking about things that the normal Christian don't even talk. Because it's stuff that's normative in church culture that we don't question. And so talk. to us about how you feel about lights. Yeah.

And I think it's like, it's okay that we like don't necessarily notice these things too much, but it's just an invitation from the Holy Spirit to notice more, right? To pay attention more. So for me, I think I first noticed because I grew up going to church and I grew up not with a whole bunch of light stuff. So when then I returned to church and as a adult, I was like, oh, this is kind of lit. Okay. I like this.

But then I realized, oh, I like this darkness because it may. makes me worship privately and individually. I like this darkness because it makes me feel like no one is looking at me. I like this darkness because it makes church about me. And so that's one part of it. I think it creates individualism. Also, I was like, I can't even write notes. It's mad darky here. That's crazy. That's part two. And then three, there's actually people like people in wheelchairs, people who have certain disabilities that flashing lights or certain lights or certain levels of darkness or light can affect them. People with epilepsy. Like there's just it's just a mindfulness of like, wow, we want the church to be a place. We literally say,

most churches say come as you are, but that's just not true. If we're actually saying, well, if you have maybe a disability or something that triggers is triggered by lights, then no, don't come as you are. Like, come sit over here in this section. So I think there's different levels and elements to it, but it is something, it's an invitation to be thinking about like, wow, what am I so used to at church or in the Christian world that perhaps isn't welcoming to all people? That's great. Yeah. I remember going to church. I think I had a conversation with Kirsten about this.

And I might be merging stories, but she was just sharing how she was in a service where somebody was crying, but because it was dark, she didn't necessarily, like it was like the darkness, the darkness didn't create room for her to actually come alongside someone who's emotional

because you don't see that they're emotional, right? And so I've also been mindful of that. It's like, make sure even, because our church, It's dark. It's like make sure you're paying attention to people so that even in the darkness, you could still be of service. Yeah.

But it's like, I wouldn't have thought about that. I'm not saying I want a hospital lights bright room either. So it's just like it's even considering that. But it's just, yeah. So it's like that kind of thing. It's like, well, don't go to church and like if they have lights. Well, I'm never going to come here again. Like it's not that deep.

Right. But like consider that kind of thing and just being mindful. And if you do, let's say, see one day someone is trying to come in in a wheelchair and they are having trouble trying to like those are just things to pay attention to. Like maybe the whole light situation. you can't address in your church, but you can't address that. Right? So I think it's such a, it's a step towards being more mindful.

Yeah, mindfulness. Yeah. He's going to say something. I figured out what I was going to say. I'm sorry. Church heard. I'm sure it was good. Tell us your story.

Ooh. Tell you my story. Okay. Well, I grew up going to church. I grew up going to a prostitution church in New York. Go about here. Yeah. And then just did a whole 360 and ended up in a penitenti.

Mechastal church because a friend of mine invited me. So I grew up going to church. My dad passed away when I was 11. Then we moved from New York. We moved across the water to New Jersey. And we just, I don't know. I don't know what stopped us from going to church. Maybe just my mom mindset or driving to New York.

So we stopped going to church for like a year or two. And then I made a friend in school who invited me to this penthouseal church. And I was like, oh, y'all doing flips in here. This is, this is lit. And like, I'm a teenager. I'm like, this is lit, you know? And so I give my life to Jesus, you know, being a Christian. And then I'm 17.

I'm going to college. And I just decide, I'm like, oh, I don't think I believe in any of this anymore. Like, I just don't think this is real. And it really came from a place of I had a lot of questions and no one was willing to answer them. And so I went to college, did all the things, a lot of things. I was like into philosophy and thought I was Erica Badu was like my mentor and all these different kinds of journey. and directions that I went in, really looking for the truth. And then I came back to Jesus at 23 at Hillsong, New York City.

I didn't have any bad experiences there. You know, I understand that people do, but we didn't get connected enough to experience anything because it was so big and we just couldn't connect with anyone. And so we then moved to a small church plant in Harlem. And I was in grad school. Like, I did not foresee myself working. And are you married at this time? Yes.

Yes. So my husband and I were going to that church together. I don't foresee myself working at a church. I'm like, oh, I'm going my master's to get to social work. I'm going to be a social worker. And then the church, the church plan that we're part of says, hey, we want to hire you. And I'm like, oh, okay. I'm like, dream country.

I get to work for my church. So I start working there. And it seems okay at first. Actually, the first meeting I had with a pastor, who was my boss, he said, hey, you might experience some things here that are maybe not ideal or, won't be, I don't remember his specific words, but it's just like you won't have, there'll be some bad experiences here because that's just what happens in any job or any place, but we don't want you to share it with your husband so it doesn't affect his faith. If that's not the biggest red flag

that could be flagging red. And I was a baby Christian 24 and I'm like, okay, you're right, pastor. And I said, okay. So for nine months, I was like going through a lot of things there and I never tell my husband. Wow. Also, he was going through things, but he would tell me, yeah. As a servant leader, he would go through certain things and he would see some things. And I guess he didn't see him as bad because I wasn't sharing. So he was just like, oh, maybe this is like my experience.

And so one day, I don't know what triggered it, but I just was just like, I need to tell him everything. And I tell him everything that's happened. And he said, girl, what? Man. And he said, so we out? And I'm like, oh, I guess. He's like, no, yes, we're out. Yeah, because I don't promote fighting.

Right. But that might make even the holiest man want to put some pauls on somebody. For sure. Yeah. It was crazy. It was wild. And I think, yeah, that fact that it was the pastor. And so both his wife and him were co-pastors, but it was like a meeting with him, which was so interesting.

So we have the conversation. We leave. They're like, y'all are offended. I'm like, okay, no. But we leave. And then we are looking for a new church. We didn't really know what we had experienced really. I mean, particularly me.

So I didn't know I had to like heal. I was just like, oh, that was a bad experience. Yeah. Yeah. And so we go look for another church and I end up working there again. I'm like, what is with these churches harrowing me? And so we start working again. And good about a year and a half in, I realized I fasted for like a whole month.

And Holy Spirit was like, you need to leave here. And I was like, oh, but nothing has happened. something's about to happen. Oh, wow. And I'm like, oh, got it. So we had experienced some, some, like, things there, but not any kind of, like, spiritual abuse, but just like, oh, like, that's not right. Or, like, oh, that's weird or, like, you know, things like that.

So I tell my husband, and he's like, okay, like, I understand, I believe you. So I quit, like, it's my job. So I have to quit. And then the pandemic begins. So we're kind of, like, somewhat part of it a little bit, like, on the social, on online on Sundays. But then we, like, officially leave after a few months. And so then I was like, I realized, oh, I really need to heal. Like, we can't just move on to the next church.

We need to heal. So that's what we did for a few years. While we were searching in New York City for a church, we just found one last year. I was literally, I was like, the beginning of last year, I was like, Lord, I'm going to give up because this is just crazy. And it was like such a random. It wasn't even like in a point of me searching. It was like randomly on a Zoom. I found like a woman who was like a pastor.

who was planting a church in the Bronx were her husband. And I said, oh, amazing. Hazleton at first. I was like, oh, another church plant. Which is why I think it's always so mindful for us to like, you know, I could have been like, oh, another church plant. So immediately say no. And in my head I kind of did that.

But the Holy Spirit was like, girl, you've been looking for three and a half years. You're going to immediately say no because of one, like one structure thing that you don't maybe want to be a part of. And I'll thank God that I didn't say no. Because, yeah, it's been a healthy and really beautiful and healing. experience, obviously not perfect, but just completely different from our past experiences. I'm curious about if when you were experiencing certain things within that church, was it that you knew it was often weird and you just didn't trust your own discernment or was it an environment

where it was explained away? and so you just kind of conceded to their perspective on what you just experienced. Yeah, I think, honestly, I think I was confused. So the first church, so like I said, I had given my life back to Jesus 23. I was working there at 25. Like, I didn't know much of anything. And like, yeah, I grew up going to church, but I just didn't know a lot. And so I feel like I was just in the place of like, well, what is Christianity?

What does the Bible say about pastoral care, pastors, people who are under that leadership? church style. I just didn't know what was happening. And then I also just saw them for who they were, which are like sinners. I'm just like, these are just a couple. They were my age, a couple of kids who were sent from Florida to New York to plan a church. And so there was just like a deep level of grace extended. But I didn't realize the grace was harming me, but also them.

Because because they weren't being held accountable, then they were harming other people. They weren't growing well as pastors. So it was really, I think, out of a place of like, I'm confused. And I don't know if like this is abuse or this is bad or this is biblical. Like I just wasn't a very confused place. And because I couldn't share with my husband, my confusion stayed in my head because I literally didn't share it with anyone. Right.

So it's like if you're confused about something, you likely like check with someone or you are in community. But it was like a confused secret that I was keeping while, you know, some staff were experiencing similar things. But it still didn't feel like it was a place that like I can connect with someone, which I would in that case would have been my husband or maybe even. other friends. That's very, that's very unfortunate because I think, you know, that's one of the things that the enemy try to do, like, try to do, try to isolate. Yeah. Isolate people, divide, you know,

the unity in the marriage. Even when you have the person. Yes. Right? Which is even crazier, I think. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, you're just trying to be faithful to, like, you know, obey your leaders. At the same time, your husband doesn't know all this. I'm glad you guys broke away from that. For sure. I think one of the questions that I have is, you know, a lot of couples have went through what you guys went through with, you know, not only you were offended or you were hurt, which your husband also went through the same hurt, you know, and so what was some things that you guys had to agree on together, you know, because, you know, trying to find a church can be difficult because the way your husband process his hurting pains is probably different

to how you process your hurting pain. And so I guess in y'all search for a new church and figuring out what you're going to worship. What are some things? things that you all had to agree on together to be on the same page to find another place to worship. Yeah, that's great. What we mainly talked about was priorities and preferences. I think sometimes we confuse them, right? So, for example, the lights thing, people can make that a priority. I'm like, that's a preference.

Yeah. Right? Theology should be a priority, right? Like, certain things should be a priority. So that's what we mainly, like, looked at and considered. And then we also looked at kind of just like our past experiences and try to see maybe like where, where. whether we're blindsided or most weak or what things even might trigger us.

For example, the church plan thing. We were like, oh, another church plan. Like, we were quick to kind of say no to that. But noticing that in us, right? Like, we're not just saying quick to just say no to anything, but it's like, oh, we know that we're being quick to say no to a church plan because of our two church planning experiences. Yeah.

So it's knowing and accepting and realistically looking at the past, but then also knowing like what we can do moving forward. Yeah. But really looking at those priorities and preferences. Our preferences matter. I think sometimes we make people feel like, oh, like, it doesn't matter if, like, you prefer this or this night. Like, they do matter.

They matter to God. They matter to our church church. But they can't be like, you're just, then you're never going to find a church. If your preference is the priority or if it's in top tier, like, you're just never going to find a church. Yeah. Yeah. So we had to think about those two things and together.

That's good. That's really good. Would you say that there were things that you noticed and saw that in hindsight you recognize as red flags that you could share to help people recognize as red flags. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the main things was how people use scripture.

Okay. So for example, in that conversation about not talking to my husband, he mentioned the scripture about to not make a brother to stumble. And that's crazy. That's really, like that. That's crazy. Oh, so that's what he said. in relationship.

Right. To keep stuff from your husband. Right. To keep stuff from yours. But in my, like I'm, let's literally say I'm a two-year-old Christian, right? I'm just like, okay. You know, like I don't know. And then as time passed, I had noticed more and more how scripture was used for certain things,

for communicating certain lessons or structures or just how we are as a culture, how we do things. And when I look back, I'm like, that's just, that's just, that's just, really wild that that would be used that way. And then at our second church, it was actually the same thing, which is, you know, why that's what's kind of like the spiritual, the basis of spiritual abuses is that someone uses spiritual things or the Bible against you or timidability you. And so that was what I, when I look back, I'm just like, you know, y'all, y'all did a lot of wild things. But the fact that y'all try to use scripture against people and not just me, right? Like against people is huge. And so I think, again, to like the mindful thing, it was just like,

really paying attention. It's not that we're like clocking everyone on what they're saying around scripture, but just being mindful of how people are using scripture. Because, yeah, it can tell, I think someone's heart. And it can show like their mindset and their mission and what they're trying to do. That's good. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember a church experience I've talked about kind of lightly, which was a very cultish, spiritually abusive type of situation in L.A. that was a thing is that scripture was used not just to edify but to control and to manipulate and to make you say things that you don't want to say or cross boundaries and stuff like that and I remember talking to someone who had a situation with one of the leaders and he used the text in Timothy where it says like add to your life brotherly love add to that affection add to that. And he used that

to basically coerce her and to give him oral sex. I can't explain how. But it was just like, I remember when she said it, I said that's the craziest way to use that scripture, but it's also slow because he didn't bring that up until two years of grooming.

Where now, like, you've considered everything that this person says is true, or even if I fill away, I don't want the wrath of the person either. So I'm not even going to push back. So it's just, it's all given Luke for. with the devil is over here, quote the Psalms to get Jesus to jump off the thing. That's so sad.

It's satanic. That's basically what I'm saying. What was why you said is the beginning of what you said is scripture wasn't just used to edify, but to me. So it's like that's why we even need discernment because it won't that they, not every time. It ain't always. Yeah. It's like, dang. Like, I don't know.

Like was that to anybody believe me? Was that to edify? Like to encourage, it can be so confusing. Right. So we need deep discernment. And we need people and we need the whole spirit. Yeah, we do. Because when Jesus was tempted, I mean, Satan.

and Jesus used scripture. One was using it falsely, but one was using it to combat like false theology. How is scripture used in a church that your book would describe as sacred? I would say exactly that. That it's considering it first sacred

because that is what scripture is, right? And then secondly, I would say it's for edification. Right? Edification is for encouragement. It's for rebuking, right? Because sometimes we can confuse church wounds we're rebuking, it's not the same thing, right? What's the difference?

I would say the difference is the motivation behind it, right? Like, are you actually trying to rebuke someone because you love them and you want them to like no longer walk in that sin? You want them to walk in flourishing to be closer to God or do you want to rebuke them to control them, right? Or to make them feel bad or to other them or to belittle them or to be racist towards them or to be sexist towards them, right? Like, what's your motivation?

And people won't say their motivation. out loud, but you'll hear in their tone, you'll see it in their presence, like, you know, kind of thing. But I think that's, yeah, that's like a component of it of really just acknowledging like scripture is being used well also in context, right? Like, it's not just like, oh, we can do all things through Christ's strength. Like it's just, let me encourage you and let me just put a random scripture out there, right? Like it's really seeing that like even the people communicating the scripture, it loves scripture.

Right? Because I think, you know, we know, especially being in seminary, you could just know scripture. Yeah. But do you love scripture? And that's seen in how you talk and how you live and how you just like communicating you scripture. So I think those are components. There's such deep discernment needed, right, in all of this.

And I think sometimes we rely too much our own discernment. It's just like, yo, we got the Holy Spirit. That's good. Like, we good, right? Like, be aware of his presence and like live that way. That's good. I would ask like, how does one guard their heart from not becoming cynical? angry.

And I think you touched on it a little bit. But, you know, there might be some people who listen to me like, man, like, I never went back to a church and I don't think that I will. You know, and we have a whole generation of just Christians who are, quote, unquote, deconstructing or just divesting, whatever they want to call it from the church. And so how did your heart not become hard? And, like, what drove you to just, like, remember that you still need community? Yeah, that's good.

I think I remembered that I'm in the body of Christ. And we've talked about this before. Like, I'm not an, I am an individual human being, but I am a part of the body of Christ. So when I say, I hate the church, I'm saying I hate myself. Yeah. Hello. Like I'm, because you're in, in him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so when I say I have, when I, when I just speak about the body of Christ in a certain way, I'm also speaking about myself, which is, why when I'm talking about edifying the church and helping the church, I'm talking about I am talking about myself too. Like I am not the one perfect or righteous person in it and everyone else is doing it wrong. Like my contribution has to be a part of it. So when I realize that I'm a part of the church, I'm part of the body of Christ, then I can stay hopeful, right? Because I'm like, oh, okay, then if I'm not the only one like this, there are other people in the church who want her to change, who want her to be healthy, who want her to be holy, right? And so I think it's remembering the bigger part. One of my, I guess you could say, kind of like weaknesses in

life is that sometimes when things are happening, like hard things are happening, I see that and that's all I can see. Like there is no good. There has never been anything blessing in my life. That's all I can see. I can be so blinded by that. And I think a lot of us are that way. And the only way I get out of that is people. It's people to remind me that, well, no, it's bigger than what you see. I also, we're talking about like reflecting and journaling. I have this journal where I write praise reports at the end of every month. And sometimes I have to go to that to remember what good is in my life and how God has been good, right? And so I think we have to set up structures in our life that actually prepare us for hopeless and seasons of despair.

Yeah, right. We can't, we can just, I'll never be hopeless. I'll never be heard by the church. I'll never this. And I'm okay when it shows up. How are you equipped? How are you prepared, right? So it's not to be pessimistic.

and just assume that's going to happen. Maybe it'll never happen. Praise the Lord if it doesn't. But if it does, you have been prepared, right? So finding different ways to prepare yourself, both mind and heart and soul, to know, like, oh, okay, if this ever comes up, I know how to respond to it. I know what to do. Yeah, that's good.

And also, too, I think, yeah, that's very beautiful. And it's just to add to that a little, a little bit. Like, I think that, like, the enemy's plan and scheme is to make us, is to make us to despise the very thing that we're, we're supposed to be a part of because he also wants us to hurt people. That's right. Because the saying that hurt people actually end up hurting people. It's a fact. It becomes, it literally becomes a cycle. Yeah. It's like because of your hurt, you, you, you, now you're operating in this wounded way that's actually even contributing more hurt to the church, right?

That's right. But then even if you become disconnected from the body, it's like, that's not a help to the body. Right. If one of my members of my body become hurt, like, like, like, it's still, it's still, it's still beneficial for it still to remain connected. That's right. Right. And wound and heal from the wounds and not just be disconnected, right? And I think the enemy wants to disconnect it. Once you sland in the church because you're disconnected now and that still just hurts

the body. Yep. And so that's good. I talk about that in my book. I give an example of like, well, when you're sick, what do you need to do to get better? Like let's say you have like a cold. You need to do several things. Like your whole body has to contribute to your recovery.

You need to lay down. You need to take medicine. You need to let people support you, let people help you. Your whole body is a part of maybe like one component. Like, you know, our cold is mainly around here, but our whole body has to contribute to that. Right. And so we, I think sometimes we just consider it to be like an individualistic thing. Or like you said, it's like, oh, I'm going to critique or I'm going to slander.

I'm like, but again, you're critiquing and slandering yourself. Yeah. So if you're doing that of yourself, sure, critique. Don't slander. Critique. but also provide examples, provide a way, provide resources and tools for things to be different. But we can just claim that something is wrong, something is trash, and then not like provide a different way. Then we're just like wasting time.

That's good. That's not waste time. Did you ever feel guilty for taking an extended amount of time to join a church? Yeah. I felt both guilty and just like sad. I was getting to a point that I was just like really sad that like it just, taking so long? I was like, are we with our priorities and preferences, are we wrong? Like, maybe we're placing some priorities that should be a preference. Like, it was just taking such a

long time. And I know when people like would ask me like, oh, what church you're part of and I wouldn't have like an answer. Like those are mainly the moments that I would feel like, dang, you know, like, well, I'm part of the body, but I just don't belong to currently an organized church. And so it was, it was a feeling of that for a while. And that's why I think I was kind of getting to a point of like giving up. And my giving up wasn't that I wouldn't find a church. It was that I was kind of giving up like the search. I was like, Lord. I'm like, I've done what I can, but I got to raise his child. I got to work. Like, you know, like, this is a lot of time just searching. And he was faithful and he responded in the most unexpected way. So I think too, like there's people who are

just searching. And I think you can also just like surrender that to the Lord. I don't think it's giving up. I think we'll know the difference between giving up and surrendering. And so I just surrender. Because I've, I've heard that. And that's why I like people feeling tired of looking. Yeah. And feeling this kind of guilt or shame. Like maybe my standards are too high. I mean, our experience wasn't at long.

I was tired. Yeah. Yeah. But I could also, I could see how you'll be tempted to even believe that there isn't one for you. Yeah. I was at the cusp of that. Because also when we were searching, it's not that we visited a few churches too. So I think it's like there's a difference between searching.

and visiting and searching and not visiting, because then I think you're too, you're telling yourself, well, I'm trying. Yeah. I went and it's not working out, you know? So it is, it can definitely get to that point. I was at the cusp. That's good.

Yeah, that's good. What would you say a soft church looks like? Because you know, black people, we got, we got, we have, we don't like the word soft. You know what I'm saying? It makes us feel a little strange. Yeah, we're strong. We hear weak.

Yeah. Right? We hear vulnerable. What do you? mean by the words off. Yeah. So I mean a trauma-informed church, a church that is consider, so what is trauma? Trauma is usually the response to emotional response to something that has happened in our life that is maybe pretty crazy. And people have different responses to trauma, right? So for example, I mentioned my dad passed away when I was 11. It was actually a plane crash in New York going to

Dominican Republic, which is where we're from. And me, I was 11, my brother was 15, my other brother was 19. We responded to that very differently. Our trauma responses were very differently. Also, God met us very differently in that. And that's what I would say is a trauma informed that God himself meant my 19-year-old brother, my 15-year-old brother, and my 11-year-old self. Also, a girl losing a dad versus boys losing their dad in just very different ways, but in committed ways, in mindful ways. Like, that's how he met us. And that is what a soft church is, a church that is mindful of the things that people have been through, of the things that people are experiencing in their day to day, of the things that maybe even people have experienced collectively, like, oh, for example,

in America, like the black community has experienced things collectively. Immigrants have experienced things collectively. Women have. So being trauma-informed is simply just to be a mindful church of those different kinds of things. The thing I mentioned about lights, that would be a trauma-informed way to have church because you're being mindful of the different kinds of people you are saying are welcome in this. space. So that's what it means to like be soft. Not like you're not even like you're nice. Like I mean, you should be nice. Right. But it's not even about that. I think people often

associate the word soft to like be nice or gentle, which yes, we should be gentle. But being soft, what I mean is really to be a trauma-informed Christian. And not just in church, but like in our day today, in our interactions, in our discipleship, in every single interaction relationship, really considering the people's experiences and what they've been to and how you can meet them in that. Because what I hear is have an ear and eye to suffering. That's right. To human suffering. I wonder, this might be touchy, but it's something that I think about often.

When I remember listening to the difference between many of the hymns that certain institutions would sing and hymns that came from the Black experience and how different they were. Yeah. Very different. Some were more doctrinal, doctrinally forward. others were more lament, you know, God's going to get me over, all the things. Do you think that certain theological traditions? You're being trauma-informed. You're being mindful of how you're talking.

That's good. Would you say that certain theological spaces actually need to lean into being more trauma-informed because of the institution and the tradition that they are a part of? Does that make sense? I'm being very vague, but I feel like you're picking up when I'm putting down. I am. I think so we love the Bible. We got it.

We understand. We love the Bible. The Bible is important. Scripture is important. And also people are in scripture. Right? It's not like people. Oh, it's the Bible and people.

No, Pete, the story of people is in the Bible. That's great. So when we are trying to be sound, then that has to include the story of people. That has to include. being thinking about being mindful of people. You know, Israel was, they just went through it. They just was going through it all the time. So if you're being doctrinal and mindful,

and you're not thinking of that, then are you being doctrinal? You know, like that's the question to think about. So it kind of just connects to just like saying, okay, the greatest commandment is to love God and love others, right? When you're being trauma form, you're loving others. And that means you're also including those kinds of things. So for example, and we didn't do it this year, last year,

but we're doing it this year. our summit, we're having a time in worship where it's actually a time of lament in worship, right? Because y'all, like, people are going through things. Also, the world, there's a lot going on in the world. And there's so much to lament. And I think God honors that. And when we take time to acknowledge also how we just feel about things, right? Like, we worship you. You are good. You are kind. And it's not a but, but it's an end. Also, yo, we out here trying to survive. And it's a lot. Right? And so I think that's a part of it. It's a part of it. acknowledging that like that's not just something we're doing because of feelings, but also we

see it in the Bible. That's excellent. Yeah. I was, I had a conversation with like this seminary cohort and they were talking about just kind of my teaching preaching method. And I gave this example about when I taught through the story of Hagar and how, because somebody was saying that they can be very heady, very intellectual and it comes through in their preaching. And I said, I think we have to realize that when we're dealing with texts and involve people, we need to consider the people. That's right. And so you won't over intellectualize Hagar's story when you consider her.

Yeah. She's a human being. So how does it feel for a woman to give birth to a baby and have sex with someone that she did not give consent to? Yeah. As a woman, you could feel that and the feeling will come through in how you craft your manuscript, right? And so I do, I think what you just said is, like, key, like, think about the people. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Not just the ideas. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that we have to just realize that if God created is all different, I think even different people groups, you know, experience God differently, right? The African-American people, like, it's not individualizing us and separating us from other ethnic groups, other people groups. But even traditionally, we have a different experience with God because our experience on this earth has been different.

And so even the way we show up, you know, in our world. worship because of our mother and our grandmother is going to be different. And so if you have a church that's in, you know, a predominantly white community and now it's growing with black people, it isn't changing your whole, you know, service. But it's like, no, how can we think about this demographic of people? So I'm not a fan of, I do think a church should be a reflection of the community that is in, right? but I do think that if it's 70, 30, right? You need to think about the 30.

Yeah. Right. And so, you know. And it's in the Bible, right? Like, I mean, think about the people from Samaria, like, they were a group going through it. And often when Jesus is talking about, he says the Samaritan woman, the Samaritan person. Yeah.

Because he's like, I want you to know I'm talking about this group of people. And I know how y'all, you know, talking to the Jews, how y'all feel about them, right? But like, he's talking about them. He's not just saying this woman, this man, this group. but he's saying who they are, right? And so it's realizing that like, well, this is, God formed us and who we are matters, including our ethnicity, including our race, including our gender, right? Like, all those things matter and how we worship God.

It reflects that. Like in the church that I grew up in that I was saying Presbyterian, we had actually an English service and a Spanish service. Like my family went to the Spanish service because Spanish was my first language. That's what we grew up knowing. And that's how we connected most to God, right, in that season. And so it's realizing like it's not even creating a division, which sometimes people think it is.

It's actually creating room for people to worship God and be with God in an even more like safe and comfortable way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you say to people who would say that having too much of an emphasis on culture and church can cause the vision or kind of steer us the wrong way? So I actually agree. I would agree. I think that could be a thing. I think especially having my own experiences growing up. So that church that I grew up in Spanish service,

it was pretty diverse Latino-wise. But then the Pentecostal church was 99% Dominican. And I always thought when I was that age, I was like, I actually can't, can I invite people who are not Dominican to this church? Yeah. Because, and like maybe the answer would be yes, but I was like, but would they be comfortable? Yeah.

They would be the only one. And yes, the neighborhood was predominantly Dominican. But like, it was a 99% Dominican. Like that church was full of Dominicans, right? So I think it can get to a certain point that it creates like barriers and divisions. But like you said, it should also reflect like the community, which is also why people are like, oh, your church is not diverse. I'm like, if your church is in North Dakota.

Like, I don't know why. What a week. What are you going to find some black people in North Dakota? You don't like stop looking for something that's not there. Right. And I've been to North Dakota. So I can say like that's when the diversity is age. That's right.

economics, like stuff like that. Which we don't address. Like there's so many different levels of diversity. Right? So, yeah, I think it can cause a division. I think it can be a beautiful thing to embrace the cultures. For example, that first church plant I was in in Harlem, it didn't acknowledge the African American experience for culture at all, right?

So then there's that extreme at all. So just like not included at all. But then there's the extreme to like only make it about that and then to maybe exclude people that wouldn't be a part of that community. So I think it's being mindful of like what is healthy, right in this circumstance and situation. Yeah. One question that came to my mind is because when I'm thinking,

I'm thinking about pushback and what people might hear. I remember reading, this is when I was on Twitter, where people were pushing back against the idea to a certain degree of empathy. What do you mean? I can't explain what I mean because I don't remember. But it was like I think sometimes people can, feel like empathy and stepping into the suffering of another person might create more room for coddling or like, let me back up. At the end of the day, I think sometimes it feels easier

to just say you are in Christ. You have victory, which in some cases could actually mean get over it. I don't have space or time or energy to walk with you through this pain. So if people hear you saying we need a soft trauma informed church, but they actually take it to me. Like, we're in Christ. Like, we don't need to address all of that. We don't need to create space for all of that. At some point, people need to just be victorious. They got resurrection power. What, what are you going say today? I think that's the easy way out. It is. I think that's super easy. I think that's the most non-Christlike way to do things. So I actually just saw a real yesterday that someone said, was talking about this. And they said that empathy is manmade. And I said, that's crazy.

That's deep. What was Christ doing? Right. I'm just like, that's... He's a high priest. That's crazy. Because when we think about even one of the fruits of the spirit is gentleness, right? But then also, Jesus himself says, I am humble and I am lowly, which other translations say, I am gentle and lowly at heart. Like, I don't know. That sounds like empathy to me, right? Like, he's saying, like, well, come rest and I will, like, give it to you. Like, that's empathy, right? Like, come and get healing, and I will provide that for you. Like that, I don't, I don't know where people are missing the part that Jesus is not empathetic, right?

So it's considering that like when we're trying to not enter into someone's suffering, it's because it's the easy way out. Because it is uncomfortable to sit with someone while they're crying and you're not crying and you don't know what to do and you're like, okay, I love you. Yeah. Like, can I pray for you? Like, you don't know what to do, which is an invitation to remind you that you don't need to know what to do. and you don't need to be a savior. You can just sit there, but it's uncomfortable. What's easy is Jesus loves you, move on.

Let's go to church, right? So it's realizing that like nothing about the Christian life is the easy way out. So if you're choosing that to be the easy way out thing, then you're just wrong. Like you're confusing the yes you gave to Jesus, right? Nothing is the easy way out. That's good. Yeah, that's really good. That's good.

I think about Jesus a lot when it comes to being empathetic because doing doing like street evangelism, talking to people. Like I always have to remind myself of the person of Christ and not necessarily just like theological principles or ideas. And I think a lot of times we get so caught up and I don't even know if this is going make sense. We get so caught up. It makes sense the whole thing.

So it's fun. We get so caught up in like the information we know and not the God that we know. And if we just meditate on the person of Jesus and just pay attention to how you function. I remember a couple months ago, I remember a couple months ago, I read. read a story in the Bible that I used to love when Jesus body gets anointed by Mary in Bethany. And when she anointed Jesus' body with the oil, you know, they start hating on her. They were very empathetic. And what did Jesus say, knowing, well, mainly Judas, because he was a hater and loved money, right? Like, he said, why do you trouble her? For she has done

a beautiful thing for me. She has anointed my body beforehand for burial. And truly, I say, whatever the gospel was told throughout the whole earth, what she has done what we told in memory of her. And it was like Jesus was empathetic of the slander that she was getting, the ridiculed that she was getting. But also, too, Jesus just cared about the little things. And even go back to the whole culture thing, like Jesus used this woman's worship to anoint his body for burial,

a Jewish burial, right? And so it was important for Jesus to have a proper Jewish burial before he went to the cross, because the Jews, they were not, you know, they didn't, they didn't, they didn't embalm the dead. They buried their dead on the same day. And so Jesus knew he wasn't going to have a proper burial, right? And so, like, he used this woman's worship. And so God, Jesus, he just, I think what I'm trying to say is he just cares about the little things that we just forget about because we're just doing church.

And we just so used to programs. We're so used to, like, this systematic. And we just forget to like look at the person of Jesus. And we forget to look at people. I think, I don't say that seeing people. And you, and I've seen your, like, like, you. You do that very well, right? So it's just like it's seeing people.

It's like, I know doctrine. I know all this. And also you are an image bearer of God who like holds a story and feelings and emotions. It's like, yeah, I think that's a huge thing. It's actually seeing people. And I think we also need to be okay or do the work of seeing ourselves. Yes. Because as someone who does not like feeling feelings, that is actually one of the things

that hinders my empathy. Yeah. It's because to feel with you, I have to feel. So it's not even that I'm uncomfortable even being with you. I'm uncomfortable with myself. Wow. And so the more I name my own pain and lament my own suffering and like say like, hey, I'm mad at you, God.

I'm frustrated with this. The more I do somebody at work, then I'm able to like actually step into your own suffering. You know what I'm saying? So I think some people who want to stay in the mind and stay intellectual to a certain degree, it's another way to numb out. Yeah. Even Jesus said that. He's like to be empathetic with others, he could be honest with God.

Because isn't it, isn't it crazy how theology, we got limitations for a reason. How theology, like, like, which is the knowledge of God can actually make us less human. Yes. Talk about it. Yeah. Say it. Isn't that deep? Say more.

Like the more and more we learn information. Yeah. We, about God, who became man. We, as humans, start to be less human. and more robotic. Because it is one thing to learn it, it's another thing to believe it. Yes.

To ingest it, to eat the bread, to drink the wine. Honestly, this was one of my hesitations of going to seminary. I was like, Lord,

I'm going to stop loving you. That's real. I'm dead serious because I've known people who graduated, walked graduation, and walked away from Jesus that same week, right? Like, I'm like,

Lord, I want to still like, keep me. And he has, but it's like, keep me. And I think part of it is too is like even, and this was a bad assumption or judgment from my end, but like thinking my professors would be like that, like, oh, it's going to be all theology and no heart.

Like, my professors have been pastoral. Yes, good. And I'm just like, this is beautiful. I was like, Lord, this is an answer prayer, right? Because I was just so hesitant about that because of that very thing. And that's a, I think we can ignore that, but that's a very real thing to try to like notice. Like, yes, learn theology and systematic and all that stuff, but like keep your heart close to the Lord. And I just want to say this just because what we're not saying is don't learn.

What we're not saying is don't study. What we're not saying is don't. Like we want you. But we're saying also like ingest it, believe it, apply it, obey it, be human. You know what I'm saying? Which means my body's all the type of stuff. Now, safe church. What, like I think a church that's soft and a church that's sacred just naturally makes it safe.

So is safe to conclude you like that? Is safe the conclusion to being sacred and soft? Yes. Okay. So I was so safe. When I talk about safe, it's to be justice-centered. And I think we've made justice to be too much of a department in Christianity. And we see justice from Genesis to Revelation.

So I don't know who invented the department. I don't know why is the department. But it's not a component of the faith, but it is who Jesus was, who is who God is a God. of justice. So yes, if you are trauma-in-form, if you're mindful of people, and if you are in the word, then you will naturally be a person who is living justly. And this doesn't necessarily, I think we've created an image of what living justly means. Like maybe like you're at protests all the time and all this different stuff. Like living justly is your day-to-day. How are you treating the people in your house? How are you treating your neighbors? How are you treating your

home that you've been given? Do you recycle? Like literally, it's simple things like that to live justly while you're in home and then outside you will do it as well. So if you are safe. If you are soft and you are sacred, then yes, you will naturally live that way. But then we miss the soft part or we're partially sacred. So then that we're just, we completely miss and don't go forth and live out a world of being safe people, which is to be a sanctuary, to be justice-centered, right? It's not going to make sense. Because I'm saying things that are in my brain that I haven't completely thought through. But I think we are part of an era where there is a lot of justice.

Okay, not even just politically and legislatively and all this type of stuff, but like people caring for, like even the pronoun conversation is a justice conversation. Yes. It's, you know, this person wants to identify as this. I want to honor the way they want to identify. Right. But it seems like there are people who are attempting to live justly independent of what God calls just. What would you say? Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah. Like it's like you're living justly or so-called righteously. or like you're being good, but you're not being godly. Yeah, yeah. Which is when you're being just soft and not sacred. Yes. Which is why this is a combination, right? A combination of things.

Because, yeah, we can go that as true. And praise God for the people who are wanting to do justice work. But then it's when it's outside of being biblical justice, I don't often like to add the word biblical justice in front of it because I think if justice is justice, then it's biblical. But, you know, there's other forms of justice that people are doing. And so let's just to clarify, if you're living out biblical justice, then it has to be derived from the Bible.

It's not what you think Jesus is. It's not what you think he's done or how he is or even the little components of how you want to take him in as his tidbits of him. His fullness. In his fullness, he is a God of justice. Therefore, all the ways he does that and how he did it and rescued people in Exodus, how it looks throughout the Old Testament, how he corrected people in their justice work in Isaiah, consistently telling the Jews that y'all are doing this, but what about the poor people? Right. It's consistently seeing his character and then living. that out. So it's not trying to think like, oh, I'm going to do it this way because this is what I think is important. Because then actually it's about you and you're actually probably not living

justly. You're living centered around what you think is righteous. And that just ain't it. Right. So it has to be about people. It has to be about God and has to be about what he has said and how he has shown justice to be. I love it. I love that. That's from the source of the one who's just. That's right. I love that. That's really good. That's really good. I don't have no more questions. I mean, I could go in. How do you do that how do you practice justice yeah i always i think about it on a day today uh thinking about it like in my home right how do i treat my son how do i treat my husband um how does how do i function in my home even let's say like um of use of food and use of resources um when people are in my home how do i treat them um how do i treat my neighborhood i often like walk around my neighborhood and

pray for my neighborhood right prayer walks so it's considering those kinds of of things. And then it's the day-to-day in New York. I mean, I think people, depending on where you live, like, maybe, like, you don't walk in the street because you always drive or like you wouldn't experience or see someone experiencing homelessness, right? So I think it's applying it to your situation and circumstance. But in New York, for example, I do often see people experiencing homelessness, right? So it's like, it's not ignoring them. It's giving them dignity. I know back in the day, I used to be like, well, I don't know what they're going to spend the money on, right? And I'm like, I mean, it's not up to me. Right? Like, I need.

need to see like them as an image bear and just give it to them and and also pray that like they wouldn't use it for something that they don't need right but that they do need um and this also goes to the soft i remember i gave i was i gave someone experiencing homelessness food one day um and he couldn't like bite like he couldn't chew food and so i'm like i'm thinking i'm living justly when i could have actually first asked him jesus like what do you need like he needed something he needed a liquid instead of a solid food wow and so sometimes we think we're living justly and we're not paying attention to actually what the person needs. We actually just want to do what we think is just a thing, which I don't think like is a sin or not just a bad thing, but it's just another thing to like be mindful of, right?

So that's the kind of the things that I do. And then even just I worked as a social worker with human trafficking survivors for seven years. And that just helped me also see like the things, the kinds of things of like how what I what I contribute to, like what companies I buy from, how I'm ethical in my decision making, right? like all those different kinds of things that maybe we consider are small, but that if we have access to and we know about something, well, you can't unknown now. So now that you know, how will you live justly according to the information that you have.

So that's kind of how I do it. What intrigues me about you, and this just intrigues me about people in general, is I'm going to ask the question. Well, let me set it up. You have a degree in social work and you're in seminary. How has your previous degree, how is it showing up in the degree,

agree that you're pursuing, like in the papers you write, in the books you read, and the topics you pick. Yeah. So, I mean, social work particularly is a lot of trauma-informed training. So I think that helped me in now even applying what that looks like in the church, but also teaching people how to do this well. It's like it's beyond being nice, right? So I think it's in that component.

And then with seminary, I'm in a cohort group. And it's very interesting because they come from a lot of different backgrounds. And I think being even a voice and a presence that has that lens and that perspective, is different because no one else has that lens and perspective. Most people in the group are like speakers and Bible teachers, but haven't done necessarily anything different outside of that. And so it's ensuring that I'm a contribution. Like the information that I learn is not just information.

That's good. Like it's not just living in my head. And also it was not just pertaining to that season of being social worker. Like it pertains to right now. Much of what I wrote in my book is like from a biblical perspective of like what I've learned in the Bible. but also what I learned being a social worker. I love that.

Yeah. How do you maintain the balance, though, of doing social work and not being so empathetic where you kind of compromise truth? Because I think some people struggle with that. You know, when you see the struggles and the pains of people, but at the same time, being one who believes in the Bible and kind of like the balance between the two. Yeah, I think it's really hard.

What I, how I discern it is through relationship. So is this a relationship where I can, where there is empathy and where there's a trauma informed, but that I can also be more truthful and I can edify and I can perhaps rebuke versus like there isn't a relationship here. So maybe my presence of empathy will be a better witness to that person than wherever their relationships are, close relationships are. They can experience edification with those people. But I think I've learned that kind of like line of being like, well, if I'm too truthful with this person right now, like, I can't, I can't do the next step with them. I can't take them further than this. And so it's kind of a little

irresponsible, right? So I kind, not that I'm never truthful with people that I don't have relationship with, but there's more empathy in that. And so with relationship, there is empathy, but also much more truth. That's great. Yeah. That's good. Yeah, what I love about your previous answer is I think sometimes people also compartmentalize their seats. seasons and the investments that they made. So even when I would talk to Dr. Sarita about how she had, you know, she went to school to be a lawyer and a counselor, right? But the lawyer was like, no, I want you to work in the local church.

And she's thinking because I have to die to this thing that I actually spend a lot of money and time to get a degree for like that's dead. But it's like all of that actually shows up in her preaching. It shows up in our leadership. It shows up in our counseling, right? And so to see how the Lord has taken. everything that you've done and everything that you went through and learned and it's still working. It's not like you had to like pick and choose. It's like, no, that's just who you are.

Yeah, nothing's wasted. And I think we need to see that. Right. And noticing either both our experiences, education, I'm literally, I just started working for my current church again. I don't know. I mean, you got, you got the oil, man. Amen. Amen. But, you know, like, and I'm bringing in that perspective because the church is also just very community and justice center, right? So just being able to. to give that lens and that experience, but also coming from like working at churches, right? So it's important to always like remember, yeah,

that nothing is wasted. Also, even if like it was painful or if like I realized like I probably wouldn't have been able to write this book if I didn't have those experiences because all of it would be an external perspective versus like a personal. And I don't, it doesn't have a whole bunch of stories in it,

but even the things that I'm teaching on, even if it's not story based, it is witness based. Yeah. It's experiential versus just like, oh, I heard somebody once. And this is why I know this is true kind of thing. So we got to, you know, praise the Lord for all the things. Even that's hard. It's given Joseph.

Being a sanctuary. What's the release date? September 10th. September 10th. You got a website. On a corner. Yes, prescellies PD.com. The radical way for the body of Christ to be sacred.

I just want to say congratulations. You know. A lot of this feels. Yeah. Let me see how it. The being sanctuary is like. It's a really nice way. It's like.

Yeah. It's a really nice. Nice, well, well done. Because I'm not going to lie to you. When books got nasty filling pages, I'm, I'm just, it's a thing for me.

Like, every book I've published, I've had to pick the texture of the page. Wow. You need to give me a book that you don't like, because I don't know what. It feels like gritty. Like,

it's not a good page turning experience. And so it's like, oh, this is going to have to be a PDF. Because I'm a texture part. It's just, it's really strange. Like,

I used to cry growing up when my socks didn't feel I would weep. I like the diversity on the of the hands. I just let you all into my weirdness. There's a purpose behind, I mean,

I don't know how much how we have. But the tattoo hand is for people who feel othered and different in the church, because at least when I grew up, tattoos were like a whole thing, like, you know, in church. Then the hand with the band-ae

for those who feel wounded and have experienced wound in the church. The hand with the dove is that we all have the Holy Spirit within the body of Christ. the hand with the growing that there's always room for us to grow the hand with the Bible

obviously we all have the Bible and then the hand to remember that we're supposed to be the light I love that wow dope dope and there's a guy there because this book is also

not just for women that part just want to because I know when women come out they always like oh there must be a book for women that's why it's not pink

we're gonna be in the sanctuary it'll be in the show notes as well as a link to Sower Summit so that y'all can go yeah writing the book is not an easy easy task so congratulations thank you for coming sitting on our couch peace all right y'all with the paris is produced

by the paris with support from amanda reed and channing mcbride video recording and audio production by matthew baxter and zavier fairly edited by the team at tread lively artwork by hop and music by swoop thank you for listening now go with god