With The Perrys - I Believe, But Help My Unbelief

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

Scripture tells us that the righteous shall live by faith, but what does that actually look like and how can we grow in faith? In this episode, the Perrys explore how unbelief sits at the root of sin, why spiritual fruit reveals what we truly believe about God, and how maturity in Christ leads to deeper, more specific repentance. Rather than striving for acceptance through good works, faithful obedience flows from the acceptance that is already ours in Jesus. Scripture references: Hebrews 11:1-4 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://meetfabric.com/perry — Help protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. You could be offered coverage instantly with NO health exam required! https://timtebow.com/tree-perry/ — Get your copy of If the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow on Amazon today! https://weekendtoremember.com — Save $100 with code Perry! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right. Hey. Hey, bud. Greetings. Got how that hat? Nope. They worked last time. What you got on?

Oh, Atlanta. Because you got on the Bears hat last time. Oh, fit. You said what? What's crazy is the last time I did that I said, I said, yeah. And then the next time I wore it, so many people in the comments was like, oh, that's the head Jackie King, you are the podcast.

I'm like, y'all be watching this spot. Y'all only like the colors. have like an affinity for the team. So it just felt like, go ahead. Like, it's like personal for you. I kind of feel like, this is what I feel, babe, because I'm starting to get offended

how you kind of diss my team. But this is what I feel. Do you own them? No, this is what, no, this is, let me, submit. This is what I feel. I feel like because I'm from Chicago, you're from St. Louis,

and y'all ain't got no teams. y'all ain't got no football team y'all ain't got no basketball team the fact that you we both midwest babies and your husband is from Chicago I just kind of feel like you should be fans of the bears and the bulls

just off GP so then what happens when I start throwing your hats in the trash like what happens when I just start throwing them trash why would you ever do such a thing because I feel like you're talking crazy to me I'm saying I'm saying you ain't got new teeth

is that a reality I'm sorry that we are of low economic power. I'm saying, is that a reality that you're not having to keep the Rams? I'm so sorry. Y'all had the Rams. We returned it into East St. Louis by the day. I don't know. I don't know what to do.

I don't know what to do. And y'all, L.A. Rams knocked my Chicago Beds out of the playoffs and your mama down here talking about some, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like they're not even St. Louis no more. So you need to take that out on her. You understand? That's because I was up. Just because the Ram has a horn.

Don't mean it's about the loop. I was upstairs feeding your. four children while you are yelling to a screen for some people that don't pay your rent. I don't know. First of all, we don't have rent. We have mortgages. I don't know. We're owners, Bucco.

I don't know what to tell you. They don't know you. They don't have no ads on here. They ain't sent you no jerseys. You're just wearing a hat and you're proud for what? First of all, do I? The Bible says all that's going to burn up. That's going to burn up.

No, do I say that when you be all investing in Big Brother? Like, why would you make that move? That's such a dumb move. That is such a done move. Why would you go that? Why would you tell that to him? I want to know. I want to know.

Next time when we have prayer. Big brother. Next time we have prayer in church, I want you to be just as loud for the Lord as you were for the bears. I would love to see it. Because you are charismatic when the bears are playing. You are Pentecostal when the Bears are blamed. And church, not quite.

So we can keep going. The Lord. We can keep going. First of all, the Lord, know my heart. He does. He sees the difference. Look, look, do I, I don't do. You need to say, unite my heart to feel your fear, your name. First of all, I don't do for the bears that I do the things that are going for the Lord.

I don't do for the bears. Do I evangelize for the bears? Do I teach the Bible for the bears? That's what the last 10 minutes. Have I committed a podcast for the bears? The last 10 minutes was evangelism for the bears. You said you would buy French tip for the quarterback. That's a tithe. That's sad

You're such a jerk I'm saying You cover me I'm a cup of you back Anywho You just make it You just make it I can't get a team

Don't care I am on Underlay Underlay Mama I Eia Eia Uh oh

What's pop At least our rappers Our rappers Stay alive Okay The thing Nellie is alive And well

Him and Ashanti Are doing it Why would you say Such a thing Your rappers My God I hit you like this and you go, ugh. I'm just saying.

Teardrops everywhere on everybody's faces. Hey, man, shaw's the chief keep. He's the only one. He got the one nigger. You got the one nigger. First of all, I'm the one nigger who pulling down oranges. He's like, I am so scared that let me like, he turned into comment.

First of all, our legends are alive. Kanye is alive. Twista, Twista is alive. Lupe Fiasco is alive. Are they? Are they? Are they? Kanye.

Are you sure? He is amongst the land of the living. He is in the sunken place. He's not here, Preston. He's not here. Lupe, you don't know one Lupe song except the skateboard one. That man be on social media with a sword. Kick push.

Have you looked at his social media? Kick push was a hit. He has a samurai sword. on his social media. That's what your legends is doing. But you don't even have a list. We got Nelly, that's it. Are you sure?

Some say I'm wrong with messing them gone. If you ain't about money would best be gone because I'm flashy. Why you walk past me? I drive past me. Call me Jeff Gron on. You know what songs, though.

You know what songs. You got one legend. I want you to sing one Clark sister song. Maverick City. Andre Crouch, let's try it. I can sing them. I'll wait. Receive me, oh, Lord.

Who is that? Receive me, oh, Lord? You don't know. None of us do. Any of us know that song? None of us. He's just making it up. Some say I'm wrong.

I'm messing. I know, you know every bare statistic, don't you? No 17 scriptures. What are we talking about? Faith. In the Lord. You got my flesh up Like I just want to

Some say I'm wrong I'm messing them gone I want to come for your neck I really do But I'm dying What we're talking about Back Talked about her little louis

Because you feel You're open Hey but y'all got some good Fried rice Okay Y'all got some good fried rice with the gravy Little egg fujong

Y'all do that real good The Bible says That love doesn't rejoice In evil Or wrongdoing But love Rejoices in the truth Why did you

just say that. That's how you get your heart right is you quote scripture. Why are you laughing? Because I got like five jokes about St. Louis, but I know it's going to make you mad. No, I'm actually perturbed. But I want to do it. Let's not do that. I want to I want to jump. No. Okay, I'm going to stop. Because I want to walk by the spirit. No, can you? And not by the flesh. Okay.

All right. Before we move on with the archman. The archman? I just want to know. That's a real question. I can't explain to you to being. Preston. All right, Hebrews chapter 13 talks about faith. Okay, turn to this. I'm gonna stop. Because we can cut these cameras right now.

I can go pick up the kids. Okay, okay, I'm gonna stop. They are out of school. I'm gonna stop, babe. I'm a stop, I'm a stop. Y'all, y'all can have a 10 minute with the parents. It is fine with me. As long as we got four ads, bracketing the whole thing.

Oh, man. To pay our mortgages. You keep making me laugh. I'll keep going. All right. Hebrews 11 says, now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, and then you get on your phone. No, I'm turning to Hebrews 11 on my app. Okay.

You couldn't find it? I can't find it. I just want to do it on my phone. Okay. Now faith is the insurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it, the people of old receive their commendation. By faith, we understand that the universe is created by the Word of God so that what is seen was not made out of things that are being. visible by faith, able, offered to God more except.

Yeah, we just want to talk about faith because the thing the Bible says, the righteous shall live by faith. And so it seems important to figure out how to grow in faith. That's the specific question that I want us to answer is how does one grow in faith? I'll let you start Chicago boy. Southside. Greatest city in the world. How I grew in faith initially was getting.

under good leadership who taught me how to read the scriptures and under good leadership was good discipleship and reading his word. How does that produce faith though? Because you have a lot of people who are under good leadership who read his word but don't necessarily have faith.

Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So yeah. The reality is this life is a vapor, meaning one day we will all die. And a lot of times we leave our families with nothing, not because we don't love our families, but because we're just not educated on the importance of life insurance and how it important it is to leave your family with something where you're gone.

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Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com slash Perry. That's meetfabric.com slash Perry. That's meet M-E-E-T fabric.com slash Perry. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company, not available in certain states, prices subject to underwriting and health questions. So I think for me,

the Lord had to allow me to, to, to, to, to, and do stuff on my own to really trust him. That's my story. I think for me, when I first became a Christian, the Lord saved me. He did a work in my heart, you know, converted me all the things. But I still wanted to do a lot of things on my own.

I still trusted in my own wisdom. I still trusted I was very proudful, very hearty. And I think God allowed things in my life to happen to show me that I can do it on my own. and that I can actually trust him to be the God that I need and not myself. How do you... I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

How did you know, even as a new believer, how do you know when you have a faith issue? Because is the presence of faith a feeling? Is it a conviction? Is it a... Like, how do you know? Yeah, yeah. I think for me, I can only speak for myself. I realize that, especially early on in my walk, I feel like,

When I think about my faith journey, it's in seasons. Early on in my walk, I didn't really believe that God saved me holistically. I believed that I didn't have faith that God was the God who could save me from anything. And so I often trusted in my own self. I often fell in sin or whatever. And God had to show me, no, I present. I didn't save you in portions. I saved you holistically.

And so what it looked like for me when I were falling in sin. I would condemn myself so much because I didn't believe that God actually, I didn't have faith that God actually defeated the sin for me. And so I think I struggled with a lot of self condemnation because I really didn't, my faith wasn't really rooted in the Lord, like how he wanted it to be. And so I condemn myself instead of just running to the, I believe that when you truly believe that you have, like your faith is rooted in Jesus. when you fail, you will run to him and not run to shame, run to guilt, run to pity, run to all the things. And so for me, I think my confidence started to grow and my faith started to grow when I realized, no, I'm actually been forgiven. It's just me not exercising that faith, not me not exercising that forgiveness, me not exercising that power. And so I think that's one of the first lessons the Lord kind of show me.

He's like, Preston, no, I've saved you. You can actually trust me with your life more. Yeah. What about you? Well, I kind of want to speak to like how people can assume that faith is just the acknowledgement or awareness of a biblical doctrine or truth. Where, you know, that is a part of developing faith. Faith, like what does the Bible say? Faith coming by hearing and by hearing of the word of God. And so you need to know truth to develop and grow in and walk by faith. But faith isn't just, I got a bunch of ideas that are true in my head.

If when I do things, I reveal that I actually don't trust what I know. I don't believe what I know. Like, I can have biblical truths and ideas in my mind, but my faith is put into practice when my reliance and yielding and surrendering to that truth manifests itself in the things that I do. Faith without works is dead, right? So if I believe that God is a provider, then that should inform my hustle or the lack thereof, right?

Because you have people who got like major hustle energy and when you interrogate the reason why they are so ambitious, or the reason why they work so hard underneath that is an unbelief that God will actually provide daily manner. That's good. You have those who may idolize fame, you know what I'm saying? And the reason why they idolize fame is because underneath that is unbelief that God sees you and loves you and delights in you and knows you.

So the way that manifests is you want attention from other people when if you dealt with that faith, then it actually would help you relinquish control. And so I just, I don't know, I don't want people hearing us talk about faith and think just stuff that stays up here. It's like, no, it has to be stuff that moves out into the way we live our lives. When you said that, though, I often think about, because I think that's true, you know, if we have faith, I think it should, that faith should reflect. Yeah. Right. Or you don't have faith. It should be evident. But I think that also can play a part of why people do a whole bunch of works to try to mimic faith. Explain.

Because it's like how the Bible tells us that our works are filthy rags, doodoo rags, scuba, right? Wow. Like, you know, that's what he meant. It's like rags, they used to wipe their bow with. That's our works to the Lord without faith, right? And so I think a lot of times people be working. Like when you see the Hebrew Israelites out there,

it's like they're trying to pretend that they have faith by their works. Right? And so what is the difference? Well, the difference is the object because they don't have faith in Christ. Yeah. They have faith in some other thing. Yeah, but what I'm saying? So they have faith.

They just don't have faith in the right object. And so because you don't have faith in the right object, the right person, then that faith doesn't justify, sanctify, save, or deliver. I guess a better question is, how can the Christian know that their faith, that their works is produced by faith and not by themselves? fruit. So in Galatians 5, it tells us that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, self-control kindness, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. If I have faith in Christ in His Word, then it's going to produce spiritual fruit. Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? And so if I'm not producing spiritual fruit in different areas of components in my life, then that actually reveals to me the areas where I don't actually have. have faith. That's good. And so I think that's why Jesus, God says, you worship me with your lips, but your heart is far from me. The reason why there's a disconnect between the lips and the heart is because there's unbelief there. You know what I'm saying? And so it is much easier for me to praise God by singing a song than it is to identify the parts of that song that I actually need to believe Monday through Friday. You know what I'm saying? So I'm like, God is good all the time,

but every week, every day I'm complaining, I don't actually believe it's good because if I believed good. I probably wouldn't be complaining. I would be rejoicing. And so I think I'm always kind of thinking through processing and interrogating the places in my life where there is unbelief or even where there is increasing and growing phase so that I'm not always discouraged. Because I think it's important. And I'm going to say this. I remember I was listening to Paul Washer when I was a new believer. And he was the first person for me that made the connection between unbelief and sin. Because he was basically saying at the root of all sin is unbelief. I had been taught, and it's true,

I have been taught at the root of all sin is pride, which is true, but pride is a manifestation of unbelief. That's good. You know what I'm saying? And so I think a lot of times people are attempting to be holy without dealing with the faith component that keeps them from growing in holiness. Does it make sense?

It makes a lot of sense. Like, because what makes, because I think God wants all his kids to have faith in him. But the reality is even the strongest Christian, sometimes your faith is going to. A fact. Waiver. For sure.

Struggle. What does it look like for your faith to waver and in those seasons, how do you cling to the Lord? My brain is so specific that I'm thinking about what wavering looks like rather than. or struggling. Struggling. I'm being too literal.

I think, one, faith is, there's a struggle for faith every day. I don't think there, I think there are seasons where faith is a little harder, particularly seasons where they're suffering, seasons where there's difficulty, seasons where there's an intensity and increase in trials. Like surely the faith of Jesus was being particularly tested in the wilderness, versus when he was being baptized by John. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a different level in which his faith was being practiced.

And so I think the biggest thing is, again, what is it about God that I am struggling to believe? That has to be the question. Because our faith is in a person, not just these doctrinal beliefs, but how these doctrinal beliefs inform what I believe about him. And so, for example, I've been saying this for like a long time, but I feel like it's important.

In Genesis 3, before that, God told Adam, hey, eat from every tree in the garden. The day you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die. What is that? That's God's word. That's a manifestation of his character. He is truth-telling.

he is wise, he is good. Satan comes to Eve, says, you will not surely die. The day you eat of it, you will be like God knowing good and evil. Now we have two supposed truths. We have God's word and we have Satan's word. At that point, she has to believe somebody.

At that point, what she does is she relies, trusts, and surrenders to the word of Satan, which implies that she does not believe that God is telling the truth. She does not believe that God is just. She does not believe either that God is for her. And so when we are struggling with unbelief, when we are tempted to believe the words of the evil one, it is he is causing us to doubt something about God's word and God's nature.

So for me, if I am struggling with, Lord, we have two mortgages. You know what I'm saying? I would love for us to be able to get this or that and pay for this or that or be generous in this. Like if the issue is a financial anxiety, which I think a lot of people can relate to, then the question is, do I believe him when he says that the birds neither so nor reap, nor gather into borns, but your heavenly father, like he, he, what does it say? Provides for them. He provides for them. How much more value are you? Do I believe I'm valuable to God to the point that he actually is going to supply all of my needs? You know what I'm saying? And the

reason I'm able to stir up faith is because I've identified the area of unbelief as it relates to God's nature and I found something in the scripture to replace my doubt with. You know what I'm saying? And so what am I doubting? Let me search the scriptures. Let me get in there because I think some people think the way I grow in faith is by just talking about my unbelieving. It's like, no, you got to get in the book. You got to read the book. You got to meditate in the book. You got to be around friends and people and family and music and TV. Not TV. Well, chosen. It's like, no. helpful that helps start up. Yeah. That's good. I have another

question for you. I said a lot. I know you said a lot. I think about faith a lot. I know and that's the reason why I got so many questions for you. Some stories are so familiar. We almost forget what they cost. Have you ever wondered what it would be like if the cross itself could tell its story? That's exactly what? If the tree could speak written by Tim Tebow does. This beautifully written narrative walks you through Jesus' crucifixion for the perspective of the wooden cross, the closest witness to that. day. And this isn't the kind of book you rush through. It's one that makes you pause to feel the weight

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could speak available on Amazon. I really encourage you to check it out. If the tree could speak by Tim Tebow available on Amazon or see the link in the show notes. Because I do think that the reality is you taught on Genesis so much, right? That, right, that Satan did kind of make E doubt what the Lord said. Make? Not make, but like, like, tempt. Right? But I guess my question is how much of our lack of faith is able to be tempted by Satan

due to our desires. Huh. Uh-huh. And the things that we really want. Because Satan had something to work with. Uh-huh. Right? And so I think that like when it comes to our lack of faith.

Does that make sense? Yeah, like, I understand. If you feel like you got to. No, no, no. If you got me. No, because with Jesus, one thing that always ministers to me about him is that when he says that the God of this world is coming, but he has no claim on me. Right? And so we say that Jesus was tempted in all respects, yet without sin, and Jesus was in fact tempted, but his temptation was external, not internal.

Yeah, because you studied Genesis, well, Genesis 3 more than me, because you taught on it a bunch. But what was in Eve that even wanted her to be like God? Well, at that point, she was sinless. Nothing was in her. I'm saying that curiosity, though. I'm just wondering, like because look God gave you the command he didn't give you the command he gave you he gave Adam the command right and he entrusted Adam to uphold

the integrity of his family right and so he they you know what God said yes right and here comes a serpent yes telling you God don't want you eat from the tree knowledge of good eat because he didn't know if you

be eating you'll become like God knowing good and evil Mm-hmm. Like, what is that? That knows the Word of God, knows what God said, and what is that in her? I don't know if it's sin. What is Satan able to work with?

Does it make sense? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if we could parse through all the different elements of what was happening in her internally. Yeah. just because we know that sin enters into their condition when Adam eats the fruit. Yes. But there is obviously unbelief and doubt and a untethered curiosity at play in her interaction with the devil. And I was comparing us and Jesus because there was nothing in him that would be,

because even the word temptation, it has this idea of being drawn away from. We see that in James. being enticed, being dragged away. And there's nothing in him that can be enticed or dragged away towards a sin. And that's why I say there's a distinction between his temptation and ours because his was external. Ours is external and internal. Like the devil can tell us something and entice us in a way where it came from outside of

us, man, you should do this or you should do that. But it also appeals to something inside us. And I think that's why the Lord tells us to put to death that, what is earthly in us. That's why he tells us to guard ourselves from those passions that wage war against our soul. And so what was happening in her?

I'm not sure. What is happening in us? We know from the scriptures. Yeah. Which is that we, our natural disposition now is not to trust God. Yeah.

That's, we're born not trusting him. We're born trusting everything else but him. Yeah. Yeah. And I know she, wasn't born in sin. I know they were their condition was way different but it's just, it is always

fascinates me how she was like she was able to be deceived to believe that God was withholding a good thing from her. Yeah. Which is scary. Yeah. But it's, but it's us and now we live in this

condition because of, you know, that. Because I want people to understand when you are tempted you are literally being tempted to distrust something about the nature of God. And so it was revolutionary for me when I heard Paul Washer make the connection

between unbelief and sin because now I knew how to fight sin better because it's like if you don't make that connection then you're going to be punching the wind instead of punching the right enemy. You know what I'm saying? And so for her to be like, God is holding something back from me.

That's how much stuff do we get into? Because we ultimately believe that God is not for us. Like, you ain't for me. Yeah. You ain't, you ain't on my side. You know what I'm saying? And so you go into that relationship because you think that human being is more for you than God. Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? You, you, we get into all kinds of practices because we look at God with these really skeptical eyes. Yeah. And it's Jesus that has to undo that. And the reason why we look at them with those skeptical eyes, because this is the less of the eye. A lot of times we doubt. God's goodness for us because we're lusting after so many other things.

It's like we lusting out to that marriage or that job. And it's like you've not even meditated on what God has already given you. And so now you start looking at God with Asada because you've been looking at so many other things with the Buckeye. Covetiness. You know? And so, yeah, that's where idolatry and doubt kind of starts. It's like, God, you don't love me because you're not blessing me like this. And it's like, I'm blessing you in a way that I'm not blessing anybody, but you can't see it because you got to

lusty eye, the lust of the flesh. And that was at play in the garden. You know, it says that she looks at the tree and she sees that it's a delight to the eyes, that it's desired to make one wise, and that it's good for food. And in Genesis chapter one, it tells us that the tree was a delight to the eyes, that it was good for food. And so there's a sense in which her perception of the tree is accurate, yet inordinate. Yeah.

And it becomes inordinate because she sees good qualities. qualities, but then she exaggerates their benefits for her. And that's Romans 1, where it's like, yeah, food is good. Food does taste good. But at the point that we turn into glutton, we've made food a good, like we've made a good thing into a God thing. You know what I'm saying? Like friendship is good, but at the point that we exaggerate that friendship where it fills us

and sustains us and quenches a thirst, we made a good thing into a God thing. Yeah. Which, again, faith is. the reason that's not. Yeah. I think when it relates to faith, I think two things that we obviously need, it's actually in the scripture, one of the most famous scriptures about faith. When it says faith, it's the substance of things hopeful and the evidence of things not seen.

I think that a lot of times when we think about faith, we need to meditate on their word hope. And we also need to meditate on their word evidence. That's good. And that's the reason why I love apologetics so much because I think people look at apologetics like this intellectual or deep theological thing that Christian nerds do. And I hope that kind of narrative changed because the evidence that God has given us is supposed to increase our faith. I have a question.

Yeah. So when you, like on Boe TV, we're having conversations with a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon, how does your argumentation, like how does that lead to faith? Like what's the strategy to get them? from just understanding the argument into believing the Lord. Yeah. So when I talk to like, okay, so before we even get there, I'll answer that. But let me just say this.

I think primarily God wants, like when he says faith, this is a substance of things, hopeful, and evidence of things I've seen. He was talking, referring to believers. He wants us to have that evidence for ourselves. I think the mistake that people make with apologetics, they want to tear down somebody else's faith before they actually have real faith in their own. Interesting. Right. And so I think God wants us to have faith first. And I think apologetics is ultimately meant to increase our faith because we, like, we study the evidence because, one, this book is a divine book, but it's also a historical record that can be proven with so many outside sources, right? And so there's a reason why they found chariots and, you know, horses, bones at the bottom of the Red Sea.

because it was actually a flood. It's a reason why, you know what I'm saying, there's over 3,000 scrolls of physical evidence of the scriptures, and none of them contradict one another because of God is given evidence. And so this historical work is supposed to increase our faith. That's good. Right?

Before we go out and defend our faith with anybody. And so it starts with us first. But I think then when we have those apologetic arguments with Hebrew Israelites or Jehovah's Witnesses or even atheists or agnostics, I think the evidence, is ultimately geared towards praying that they will come to faith. I know people don't like debates, but healthy debates is necessary and I also think it's biblical, right?

He says Paul sat outside the synagogue and debated them for hours. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, I think what he was doing was he was providing the evidence that he has, because he was a brilliant man even before he came to faith. And so he knew their poetry. He knew their literature. He knew their history. And so now as a Christian, what he was doing was he was providing evidence and hope that

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Register now and save $100 using CodePerry at Weekend toremember.com. That's Weekend toremember.com, code pair. I have a question. If my concern in conversation with somebody that I ministering to who's an unbeliever doesn't have faith, if my primary concern is that they would believe, is there a particular strategy to how you argue because you have faith in mind? Does that make sense? Because I have faith in mind. Yes. Because if it's just transmission of knowledge, your argumentation will be curated a certain way. but if it's to get at such a good question thank you if it's the i'm setting you up for your book

if it's to get at the heart and faith how do you you know what you know what bothers me when when i know a whole bunch of evangelists around the country right and a lot of apologies and the more people learn you know what they talk about less what the holy spirit the leading of the Holy Spirit. It's, it's fascinating that the more you learn, the less you stop talking about the third member of the Triangium Godhead. God literally says he's our helper. Good. Keep going. Right. And so even when Jesus, you say helper. Even when Jesus commissioned the mountain twos, or even when Jesus was about to, you know, be crucified and ascend to heaven, he told Peter, Peter, he says, don't worry about what you will say. But in the moment, the Holy Spirit will give you

utterance. He will give you the words. And I think a lot of times when we're trying to bring somebody to faith, sometimes we can either be two sides of the extreme. We can, we can be so like, faith, faith, faith, God is going to do a work, but we don't explain nothing. That's good. And then we can be so intellectual, well, we actually don't even hear the Holy Spirit saying, be quiet and hug her. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so I think. And so I think. And so, I think it's a balance. And I think the Lord wants us to move in this balance of saying, no, like, I want to bring people in faith.

It is not your words. But I can use your knowledge and wisdom. That's good. You know what I'm saying? So I think it has to be a balance. Yeah, I think it's helpful to talk to, because the reason I ask that is because we not only have to stir a faith in ourselves, but that's actually the job of a disciple maker and an evangelist.

is to cultivate, stir up faith in each other, even in Hebrews. It says, exhort one another every day while today is still today. So you will not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. And around that same area, it says that unbelief is evil. And so when I'm teaching, for example, I think a very particular strategy I have, and that strategy comes out of my temperament

and how I deal with myself, which is I am always trying to, to help you see your heart, see the stuff that's in there, and then replace it with Christ. And so the way I do that is I usually will get to the bottom of stuff. Yeah. You know, I never just talk about what you do. I'm talking about all the possibilities of why you do it.

And in talking about why you do it, I'm also dealing with the belief systems that are underneath the behavior and then replacing that belief system with Christ. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so, for example, when I talk about, it could be like sexuality, you know what I'm saying? One of the belief systems is, yes, you have this passion, you have these desires, you have these affections, you have these attractions.

But there are belief systems under that that govern the reason why you think you can walk in it, right? And so you think you can walk in it most likely because you believe you're Lord of your body. You think you can walk in it maybe because you're despairing. You try to stop. You try to think differently. You tried to be attracted to something else and it didn't work. So your weariness, your discouragement has affected your faith in God's ability to help you obey him. Like there's all kinds of reasons for why we don't trust God.

And so I think a reasonable way to disciple people and to evangelize with people is to have a discerning eye for why they do what they do and not just what. Didn't I encourage you about your preaching that you do that really well? The last time you talked, because I think that you do a really good job of getting underneath the behavior of people. Yeah. And I think a lot of times, especially apologists, not all. I know some great apologies. But like we focus so much on argumentation. You said this, but this is what the scripture says.

And it's like, okay, telling people mere information a lot of times just won't cut it. if you don't explain to them why they're doing what they're doing. Yes. Because that's what Jesus did. See, but Jesus did it because he was God, he knew. Yes. Right? So you met the woman at the well.

Where's your husband? He said five. Yeah. Right. And so one, we're not even investigative enough to actually know people enough. Yeah. And so I think that studying, like studying people behavior, studying why they do what they do, not just knowing information,

but truly seeking to know people will help you, help other people in their face. Because I think that's what you do. You do it very well in your teaching. It's like you read a scripture, you talk about us, and then you get underneath our behavior. Yes. Bring it up to the surface and then give a solution with Jesus.

And I think that's what teaching it. Because we have to see people have reasons for their disobedience. Yes. There are reasons. Right. We're not robots. Right. We are very logical, logical reasoning people.

Yeah. And so when you look at Jesus, he is always telling the Pharisees, yeah, you do that because you think this, or you do that because you want that. And it's like he's exposing the heart. If a person wants the Lord, that exposure will draw them into repentance and faith. Right.

If that person wants to love themselves and maintain their own idolatry, they will suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, therefore coming up with more reasons not to believe. Absolutely, absolutely. And that's why I love when you, taught on false teaching,

the Timothy, the Timothy sermon. Itching ears. The itching ears sermon because one thing you talked about how people, they run to false teaching and sometimes people would just park there.

You just want to listen to false teachers and that's why the scripture says you accumulated teachers for yourself. But then you got underneath that. One of the things you told them, you said, man, one of the reasons why we run the false teaching is because we're trying to restore our dignity.

Correct. We want our dignity to be restored. Now, if you just shame people, the scriptures say, as you run as a fault, and you just stay there and not get underneath, no, you want to be dignified. Do you know why? I love this conversation. Now you don't know how to minister to that in a proper way. I'm so glad your thigh isn't juicy. That would have made me feel away.

If when I touched it and it like went in, I wouldn't be like, ooh, you need to do some. Every day I'm around you, I understand why I 11 year old thing she thinks just like you what do you mean eating is just like you the fact that you touched my knee and you thought that because it was firm and i was like oh that's dope if it went like and i've been doing my squats i just went like we could you're like you're on like juicy men no dude no did it we got changed subject uh what i was going to say what was I was I Oh, one of the potential consequences and disadvantages of only dealing with the what and not dealing with the why is that you don't actually help people to repent on a deep level.

And so what happens is people listen to your messages and they have superficial fixes because they don't realize how deep the lie goes. So you have to get to the bottom of the thing so you can uproot it and then replace it with a truth that goes deep into the soil. Yeah. Like I'm dealing with soil. I'm not dealing with surface. Yeah. And so I think when you say, you know, I think that's what legalism is. Legalism is dealing with surface level righteousness.

You're doing this. Stop doing this. Yes. But if I don't know why I'm doing it, I really cannot repent. Especially when you understand the comprehensive nature of sin. sin is so deeply rooted in who we are that it will manifest itself and me finding like how do I say it? Because John Owen talks about this in his book. If I tell you to just stop lying and I don't deal with the idolatry to people pleasing that keeps you from being honest, you will just find like the people pleasing isn't fixed.

For example, Tim Keller talks about surface idols. and root idols. The surface idol is lying. The root idol is people pleasing. If I deal with the surface idol when you stop lying, but you're still a people pleaser, you're still not righteous. It's going to manifest itself in the area too.

So it's just going to, it's going to, you took out that flower pedal, but it's going to grow in a whole bunch of other ways. So you might not be a liar, but you're a manipulator. You might not be a liar, but you don't want to be honest and be bold. You might not be a liar, but you're not courageous. Why? Because the root issue hasn't been dealt with. That's so good.

And so in our communication, and our discipleship, getting to the soil and replacing the lie with faith is necessary for people to have deep and lasting sanctification. Absolutely. Because what I essentially hear you saying,

and I think this is the reality, I think all good spirit-led teaching, all good spirit-led evangelism, helps people with their faith. Because what it really does, it gives people the right language to learn about themselves to repent to God. Yes.

It's saying, like, I'm not just going to show you what you're doing. I'm going to explain to you the manifestations, like the root manifestations of why you're doing it. And so now you can actually go with the right language and say, Lord, I'm doing this because I have a unbelief problem. Yeah. Or I'm insecure. Yeah. Or I'm not just merely a liar. I'm liar because I have a fear of man.

Correct. Deliver me from that. Your repentance becomes very specific. Yeah. That's so good. It becomes very specific. And in it becoming specific, then you, your neediness and your dependent. Because really, truly, faith is us coming in alignment with reality.

Right. So for me to believe that God is good is for me to actually agree with reality. And so unbelief is disagreeing with what's true. And for you to come in agreement of reality, you have to come into agreement of reality about the state of your heart. About you. About you. Yes. It's like, okay, yeah, I'm going to stop doing this.

And this is the reason why a lot of you. people walking around thinking they're righteous because they stop doing a whole much of behavior things. Yes. And it's like, no, it's your heart change. Yeah. Wide-washed tombs. Yeah, because Christianity is not about behavior modification.

It's about, it's about a heart change. And so I think God is, he's always after the heart. He's not merely after behavior. Yes. He wants behavior to flow from a heart that has been changed. Yes. Because if it was, yeah, yeah, he wants behavior that's rooted in faith. Faith.

That's the reason why it says that anything not done from faith is sin. So what? You are nice to that homeless person. That is beautiful. That was a good work, but it was a good work that will be burned up because it wasn't rooted in faith. So that is why the argument where people look at non-Christians who are really moral and really ethical and say, like, why wouldn't they get into heaven? because everything they did had nothing about Christ at the center of it in their affections. And so how can he be ignored, be blasphemed, be unloved?

And not only was God not at the center of their affections in their so-called good work, but also they were at the center of their affections because they want you to see that they did some good. Because when you read the book of John, for example, when God is talking about hypocrites, they pray because they want people to see them. They fast because they want people to see them. They do this because they want people to see them. Their Lord is people, not God. So even though they did these outwardly, moral, ethical, religious works,

God was not pleased because it had nothing to do with him in the first place. I think that's offensive to the Lord. For you to be over here patting yourself on the back for doing something good that ain't godly. But that's so good. But another, yeah, that's so, who, that's so good. But another reason why I feel like faith done apart, like works done apart from faith is extremely disrespectful for the Lord because the Bible tells us, that faith, that were saved by grace through Jesus Christ by faith,

not of our works these any man can boast. Because when we do things for the Lord that is not done in faith, it's actually a spit in the face of the finished work that he did for us on our behalf. Explain. And so Jesus finished the works for us. Like he came to do a work that we cannot do and to live a life that we cannot live. He did that for us. And so this is why the scripture, Paul tells us,

so that any works that's added on to the works of Christ, let that works be a cursed. He said, I don't want that works. Your works and God works together, I don't want. I want you to trust in the finished works of my son alone. When you place your faith in the work that he did for you, now you are saved and forgiven through the work that he did. Now your works is not because you're trying to work to please God,

but it's really done out of what you said, faith. And I think any time we try to add on to, to the works that God completed, it's kind of like, no, I came to work for y'all. Yeah. And I actually completed that work for y'all. Like, why are you working on your own? You know what I'm saying?

I would be very frustrated if I did a work for my son out of sacrifice. And instead of him just resting in what I did for him, he's trying to, like, add on to what I did. It's like, no, just accept what I'm giving you. I feel like you've had this discussion with Hebrew, Israelites often, and I kind of want to touch on it here because it feels, like on brand which is like how do you respond to the person who was like okay Jesus Christ finish a work he wants me to have faith in him are you saying that I

shouldn't work because I have faith what I said it again some people could hear you say Jesus finished the work and so just rest in his work and hear you saying so are you saying I shouldn't work? Yes. I should do nothing because I have faith? That's a good question. No. What I'm not saying is that the Christians should not work.

I think what the scripture says that, you know, we're saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is not about works at least any man can boast. I think God wants every Christian to have good works. Our works is not the thing that justifies us in the eyes of God. That's the difference. When we do a work and to be justified on our own, trusted in our works alone to justify us in the out of God. And so when the Bible says that

faith with our works is dead, it's not saying that if we don't work, our faith dies. It's saying that if we actually don't have good work, we probably never had faith to begin with. It's evidence you were never alive in Christ. And so our good works is not what justifies us in the house of God. Our good works is evidence that we have been justified in the house of God. That's good. And it's a complete different. That's good. And so now our works is done out of faith.

Our works is evidence. Our work is an outporn of the finished work that has been done in us through the person of Jesus Christ. And so when you look at it that way, you know, oh, I'm not working to be accepted by God. This work is actually worship. That's good. That's what real work is supposed to be for the Christian, not evidence, not to justify us, not to say, okay, you did this for me today. We're good.

It's to say, You saved me. You finished the work on my behalf, and now I'm good. I can worship you with good works. I think a very practical example of this is devotions. Break that out. You wake up in the morning,

let's say you got an hour of time before you got to do something. And you're like, okay, I'm going to pray and I'm going to get in my word. Works would say, I'm going to pray and I'm going to get in my word to make sure that God knows I love him,

to make sure that God is good with me, to know that God has a smile on his face and gives me a thumbs up like, good job, you spent 45 minutes in Leviticus. You are my favorite. That works. Faith says, I'm going to get up, and when I got up, I was accepted.

I was accepted before I prayed. I was accepted before I worshipped. I was accepted before I read this book. I am in Christ, the righteousness of Christ. I am united with him. So I am fully accepted before I do anything. I am much like Jesus when he was baptized. Before his ministry started, he said,

this is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. Before he fought the devil, he was well pleasing. Before he did anything, he was well. So when you woke up, he was already loving you and accepting you. So that means that when I open up the scriptures, I open up the scriptures from a place of rest and not retribution. I'm not trying to pay God back. I'm not trying to prove anything.

I'm just here because I love you. Yeah, yeah. That's the difference is I'm engaging with my spirit. So that means I don't have to feel bad if I only did it for 10 minutes. I don't have to feel great if I did it for 45. Either way, I'm accepted. That's so good. That's so good.

Speaking of Hebrew Israelites, I had a conversation with them one day, and we were talking about this same topic because you know Hebrew Israel, they believe that we can keep the law perfectly. That's what they truly believe. Even though the scripture says that if you break one law, you've broken them all. You know what I'm saying? But they think they can keep the law perfectly. And so I was trying to explain this concept to them and they just couldn't hear me.

I believe that the Lord gave me this analogy. We was outside little five points and it was a soda bottle right there. And I felt like the Lord gave this to me. I was like, no, God does want our works, but he wants our works like this. And so I told him, I said, imagine that you are this soda bottle. It was empty. I picked it up, you know, whatever. And I said, imagine that the soda in and out of here is good works.

And God wants those good works to come out. And I said, I said, and that's how your faith, he wants you to display your faith. Now, the way you're trying to display good works is you're manually pouring this thing over and allowing good works to flow out that way. God said that works is a curse. Any good work done on your own power or your own strength? He said, I don't want to. Those works are filthy rags to me.

So then he said, well, how are we supposed to get good works? I said, have you ever seen these YouTube videos where they put like this mento toast candy inside this soda thing and shake it up? And then all of the soda kind of just pours out. And he was like, yeah. And I was like, I think that's what the Holy Spirit does to us. The Holy Spirit comes inside of us. So he's mento. He's mentos.

How y'all don't buy you, shit a bag, shut up. That was the only thing that I can think of. I was like, notice that nobody manually poured the soda out. But when this menthol's dropped down in this soda bottle, something changed on the inside. And I was like, that candy, whatever's in that candy, start messing with this little suds. And I said, and when that thing opened, it just poured out. And I said, that's what the Holy Spirit does with us when he comes inside of us. Something changes on the inside.

And so now our works is not done because we're trying to be justified by God. Our works is a natural response of the work that has been done inside of us. And he was like, I was like, the Lord like literally gave me that. That's excellent. Like right in and there. I think that's what it is. God wants good works to flow out of us. But when good works flow out of us through the accepting his son, Jesus Christ and the Holy

Spirit coming inside of us and changing us, he says, wow, those good works, I can delight. in because they're through my son and not your own work. Because God, I said this before, God is very much after removing every opportunity for boasting. Yeah. When we do anything apart from faith, we are creating space for us to boast in ourselves instead of in the Lord. And so that is one of the problems with legalism in all of its forms,

whether that's with false religions or whether that's with Christian versions. of Pharisees is that we are, because Pharisees are alive and well, we are doing things that give us room to take pride in ourselves. And that's why we love, we want to rely on our good works because we want to pat ourselves on the back. But to walk by faith is to say, I didn't save myself. I'm not saving myself. I'm not going to glorify myself so that when we get to heaven, it's all glory to you. Worthy is the lamb who was slain to receive all glory and honor and praise and wealth. Why?

Because you did it. That's so good. You did it. I also want to add, I want to ask the question and then we can end. How do spiritual disciplines help you grow in faith? Man, I think in the most practical way, we were talking about this. I was with one of my discipleses in Alabama last night. This event I had, and after dinner, we was at dinner literally talking about this, about reps,

about like getting, like disciplining yourself to sit in the presence of God. Like what I've been doing lately, I've been going in the basement, working out, and then getting in my word, working out, getting in my word, working out, getting in my word, working out, doing things when you don't feel like it. because even if you don't feel like it, you can't tell me that if you read a word that is alive, it is not going to change you. And so like I don't be feeling like reading my Bible, but every time I read my Bible, I see something in that scripture that helps me.

And so I think disciplining yourself and saying, if you could discipline yourself to go to the gym four days a week, you could discipline yourself to read the scriptures five days a day. Right? And so I think that that discipline just, reminds you of the goodness of God. Like at the core of our unbelief and our lack of faith, it's not mere sin, but it's also we have a memory problem.

And because we have a memory problem, we need to consistently be reminded of God's word. And so we have to train ourselves. Yeah, that's good. The scripture tells us to train ourselves. For godliness. For godliness. And so it doesn't say,

I'm going to wake up every morning with you and give you the desire to read my word. It does not say that. Yeah. It says, no, you need to. train yourself to have a discipline to read my scriptures. But also, you need to run to community. I don't think that God wants us to be on the island. I think that amongst the saints, amongst the brothers and the sisters, we'll be reminded of his goodness through hugs, through reminders, through care,

through, you know, all the things. Yeah, I agree. I think prayer, Bible reading, fasting, fellowship, these spiritual disciplines, some would add even communion as a sacrament, all of it serves to grow you in the faith. And some came in my mind, didn't it went when you started talking about reps and working out. Oh, it's that God is a rewarder of those

who diligently seek him. Yeah. And I think we all tend to move towards anything based on feeling. That's kind of how we function. I want a snicker, so I'm going to have it. I want this friendship, so I'm going to have it.

I want this man, so I'm going to have them. I want, I want, I want. And it confuses us when that same degree of affection wanes with the Lord. And so because we don't feel like reading or feel like praying, we don't do it. And I would argue that even underneath that affection or lack thereof is unbelief, unbelief in your dependence. there is the presence of self-sufficiency that is driving how you move. Because if I genuinely, genuinely believe that there is no good apart from you,

if I genuinely believe that I can do no good thing apart for it. If I genuinely believe that if I abide in him, if I believe that, I will bear much fruit, then there's an impulse to be like, I can't do anything if I don't pray. It becomes like a, yeah, I got. You know what I'm saying? And so I think identifying that part of us that feels like we are good without God every day is necessary. And I'm going to say this. John Piper has this clip where he talks about why our tanks are empty every day.

Because I think that's irritating too. I think for me, I just, I don't want to be that reliant. Why not? I don't want to. Like, I don't want to be so needy. You get what I'm saying? So if I feel like, like, I got to pray before. I got to do the podcast.

I got to have this conversation. I need wisdom. I got to answer these emails. I got to go meet with this person. I don't really like them like that. Like, I would rather not have to depend on God to be godly. I would rather want to just do it myself because that just feels easier and more convenient. But every time I do it myself, it's just never, it's never pleasing.

So I think that's the reliant thing is a thing. But so what Piper talks about is like, we would rather be able to run on last week's gas. I had a good prayer time with the Lord and Bible study with the Lord. And we don't like that on that Tuesday did not carry into Wednesday. You woke up Wednesday morning. You're like, dang, I still feel empty. And he was like, the reason our tanks get empty is because every day now you have to to the station.

Yeah. And he's like, that's, that is what God is up to, is that he wants us in the station every day so that at any point we don't think

that we are running on our own fuel. Yeah. And I, I think that's what spiritual disciplines and faith and all of that. You know what that just reminded me of,

it reminded me of our daughter Eden, you know, oftentimes she wants to please me, but she doesn't want to ask me to help her. Right. And it's like,

she wants, she wants to please Daddy. And it's like, Why you didn't ask me? I want to do it by myself. And I think a lot of that is me. It's like I want like, but the reality is we need God's help to please God. Correct.

Right. And so we just need his help. You know what I'm saying? That could be a humbling thing. Yeah. Because you can't please him and pat yourself on the back at the same time. And that's what we want. Just surrender to your helplessness and your neediness.

I think we get it with that. And right there is where. Faith grows. Yeah, we need God. Bye. And it was convicted. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Libly. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.