With The Perrys - Imprecatory Prayers, Friendship, and Jesus with Nona Jones

Episode Date: October 19, 2026

What do you do with the pain that remains after you’ve forgiven someone? If we look to the Bible for guidance, we see that one-third of the Psalms are “imprecatory prayers,” or prayers for justice or vengeance. It’s in those prayers that we can find some helpful language for handing over that grief and anger to God, trusting Him with the outcome. Nona Jones joins Jackie and Preston to talk about her new book, “The Power of Petty Prayers.” They discuss why we can’t always wait for resentment to disappear before choosing to love, and how bitterness can become a debt we unknowingly hold against others. Check out Nona’s new book, “The Power of Petty Prayers: How to Heal Your Hurt When You're Wounded, Weary, and Just Plain Mad” – https://www.amazon.com/Power-Petty-Prayers-Youre-Wounded/dp/0310368308/ Connect with Nona www.instagram.com/nonanotnora www.nonajones.com Scripture references Psalm 35 Matthew 11:28 This Episode is Sponsored by: https://fieldofgreens.com - Get 20% off with promo code PERRY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The new 2027 Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid. Consumer Reports top rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. How are you? Hope you all right. Hey man, calm down. What's up with y'all?

I was just talking about how this morning when I was dropping off, I was dropping off the kids and autumn. I took them to Starbucks and she was eating a little cake or whatever. I don't be, I don't care what they eat for breakfast, honestly, some days. It's just you could have a lollipop, whatever. Not a lollipop. She was eating a little limelope. And she was like, I think I'm going to throw up.

And I was like, aren't you? And then like, I don't know. I don't think it was throw up. It was like spit or whatever. And I was like, how you feel? And she was like, I feel sick. I said, was you sick before you got in this car? She said, no.

I said, so I think you're okay. I think you're okay. I think you just got going to have to push through. You got to go in there. And, you know, I wanted to say you need some ginger real. I don't think they got that at private schools. And then, yeah, because it's like, we got to do podcasts. Yeah, I'd be afraid, though, because you'd be trying to send them to school when they, like, halfway sick.

But I'd be afraid of getting that call. They come and pick them up, and I got, like, ruin. I would rather risk you pushing through and actually seeing that you are whole than having you stay home. home and because what would have happened, she would have came here and she would have been just fine. Yeah, that's, that's good. You was, you was raised by Linda Ann. I had to be near death. I know. To stay home. Yeah. And I couldn't stay home. I would have to go to work with her. But that's typically black mamas. You're not that sick. You're not dying. Yeah. Yeah. Black mama's like, you got to push through. Your ankle could be broke. Because my mom used to tell me,

Preston, if I got to go up to the school. It's going to be worse. No, she used to say, if I got to go to the school and pick you up, you cannot come out of your room for two days. Correct. Because if you're sick, you're going to be sick at home too. Correct. I said, I'll fight through. Hi, Nona. How are you?

We got Nona Jones on the couch. How are you doing, girl? Oh, good. You were saying earlier, you was close to an asthma attack, and your mama was just like, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I know. Breathe through it.

I know. Like, now that I have language for it, I believe I was having a true asthma attack. And my mom literally just took some Vicks. Vapel rug. That's insane. Rub it on my chest. She said,

I opened you up. Where's your lunchbox? Let's be honest, though. Was that abuse, guys? Like the way we were raised? No. You know what I'm saying? It builds character.

It was the hard life as opposed to the soft life. You know what I'm saying? I grew up in the hood. Like, you know what I'm saying? My mama had to be like, but I'd be telling stories sometimes in the body of Christ depending on what kind of circle I'm laying. And I'd be like, I think y'all are judging my mama.

My mama was a loving mama. But we are parenting by people who live through Jim Crow. they are over here walking to school with the threat of lynching. And you're talking about you got a comment. Because the people will be talking about gentle parenting, your mama still probably take the edges off

the corners of your bread still and you 28. You know what I'm saying? My mama loved me. My mama couldn't drink from certain fountain. And you're talking about you got a headache. Yeah. You ain't never had to walk through the clan. I'll never forget one time.

My mom, and I don't know if y'all ever done this, but she was giving me a spank. She went to give me a spank of my chair. She pulled the belt up with a woman. I said spanking it be PC. But she, the belt came down and I caught it. Ooh, why would you do that? And we met eyes.

Why would you do that? And I counted down. That's rebellion. I said, three, two. And I took off, right? That's where I ran and run. Out the door, out the door. And I knew, I was like, I got her.

You just made it worse. I literally just looked over my shoulder. My mom was right there. She beat me in the neighbors, on the neighbor's lawn. Yeah. Yeah. Good for mama. Since we talked about one, one story, one time my mom was whipping me with a shoe.

And I was about beyond the age of whooping. I'm actually at the age of conversation. Right, right, right, right. I promise I was like in sixth grade. And it wasn't hurting. So I like looked at her like, what are you doing? It made her so, man, you think you, da, dot, dot. It's just like, yeah, because we.

We're supposed to dialogue about what's going on. Oh, so you're grown now. Yeah, I'm not grown. It just don't hurt. But what she do, though? What? You told me this story. What's she do that got you?

Is this when she... Oh. Oh, yeah, she basically took away... Like, she decided... I had a bad report card. I feel like this is a separate situation, but I had a bad report car, and she said,

you will not get new shoes or new clothes until next semester. Mind you, next semester was the beginning of the school year. So the end of the school year I didn't have clothes or new clothes, which meant I had to start school with the same clothes. I wore the previous semester. I said, you will never get an attitude from me ever again.

Because I am going to school with the same Air Force ones that's no longer white. That's embarrassing. I start making clothes, though. Yeah, you got creative. I did. Anywho, they ain't got nothing to do what time. No one has a book called The Power of Petty Prayers. I like the alliteration.

When I first heard of the title, I thought petty prayers, I thought you meant like prayers that are measly. Right, right. But that's not what you mean. Oh, no, no, no. No, that's the dictionary definition is trivial or insignificant. I mean the way the streets use the word. So we talk about petty as someone who can't let an offense go until they get their lick back. And the inspiration for the book actually came after my last book.

which was the gift of rejection. I'm one of those authors. I love to hear from people, so I put my email in the book, right? And I got thousands of emails from people. And there was like this common thread in the emails where people were like, this was such a blessing. I can now see how God can use rejection for purpose. Thank you so much.

I have forgiven the person who rejected me, but I'm still angry. How do I deal with my anger? And that really raised a question for me. because, you know, I've been in the church for decades, and I think we have ascribed a power to forgiveness that it doesn't have. So when someone's like, I'm hurting, this thing happened to me, I'm angry, we're like, well, just forgive. Yeah. Just forgive. Yeah.

But like, forgiveness and healing are not the same thing. So the book came out of that, which was like, Lord, show me biblically how do we heal the pain that remains after forgiveness so that we're not trying to take things into our own. hands. That's good. Because it's, pain has an emotional consequence. Absolutely. That, you know, lives in your body actually literally changes your wiring and all the things. And so it's like, I do think that it can come across as, and I think that's why a lot of people are prone to think that they haven't forgiven because they still feel.

Oh, yeah. Well, it's, so I like to use the metaphor. So imagine that you're riding down the street in a bike lane. You're on a bike. You're riding down in the bike lane. somebody swerves into the bike lane and they hit you and they break your leg, right? But the person hops out of the car and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. My mother was just hospitalized.

I was distracted. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry for what I did. And let's just say that you forgive them because you're like, man, it was a mistake. It was an accident. They were penned for it. But you still have to deal with a broken leg. And it's the injury that we don't equip people to deal with, right?

And so, like, I think you can forgive. and still be bitter because bitterness is about the injury. And that's what has to be healed. That's good. You've been talking about bitterness a lot. Yeah, I'm really curious of the pairing of the word power and petty. Yeah. What makes the, what makes the petty, like the prayer is powerful.

Yeah. When I first started to look into this subject. You know, and in the book. Got to get to the book. So there's 150 Psalms of that. David wrote maybe, I don't know, 70 or so, right? Of that number, a third of them are what are called imprecatory prayers, prayers for vindication, prayers for justice, prayers for vengeance.

Yeah, he was like, kill him, Lord. Man, he was like slap him across the face, break their teeth, like all the things, right? Well, after I initially started to think about this subject, the Lord took me to Second Samuel chapter one. And this is right after Saul dies. Saul dies. He's killed the whole thing. What chapter? Second Samuel chapter one. So this is when David hears of Saul's death. Now mind you, Saul has literally been trying to kill this man. He's slandered this man's name. And he never apologized. He never repented for it. Right. But David learns of his death. And in verse 11, it says after hearing of his death, then David and all the men with him took hold of their clothes and tore them.

They mourned and wept and fasted till evening for salt. Like are you, like, wait a minute. Let me understand. David mourned a man who made it his business to take him out. A man who betrayed him in every way possible and never apologized for it. And so that made me curious because I was like, well, what happened? that he could be so healed, that in the absence of an apology, he mourned a man. And that's when the Lord took me to Psalm 35. And Psalm 35 is a prayer that David was literally praying in the midst of

Saul trying to take him out. And David says, contend Lord with those who contend with me. Fight against those who fight against me. Take up shield and armor. Arise and come to my aid. Brandish spear and javeling against those who pursue me. Say to me, I am your salvation. David said, those who seek my life be disgraced and put to shame. May those who plot my ruin be turned back in dismay. May they be like chaff before the wind with the angel of the Lord driving them away. This is my favorite verse. He says in verse six, may their path be dark and slippery with the angel of the Lord pursuing them. David said, I want this to be like Friday the 13th, like nightmare on Elm Street. Like I believe the power here is in his honesty. David didn't go before.

God and be like, Lord bless them. God enlarge their territory. God, I just pray your favorite partner, no, David, was like, I need you to take them out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I believe that he gave God his anger and his pain so that God could be the one who could do the work of healing.

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promo code Perry. That's Fieldofgreens.com promo code Perry. I actually really enjoy the imprecatory songs. And I didn't start to, enjoy them until I was up against betrayal, slander, injustice, and I didn't know what to do with that. You know what I'm saying? And I had to like, I was like, okay, let me Google like if it's holy to pray these. You understand what I'm saying? Because it can come across like, are we cursing people? Come on. Yeah. You understand what I'm saying? And so, but it, for me, it gave me, it kind of opened up

lament. Yes. And it actually quenched vengeance. because it gave me language for how to pray, but putting all of the things in God's hands. But I guess what would you say to people, because I do think it's a motive thing, how do you discern if you're praying these from a place? Because the Bible also says love and bless your enemies. Absolutely.

So how do you work through that? Yeah. So I actually believe that healing is sequential. I think that what we do, and I know it's coming from a good place, but I think what we do is we try to rush people to a place they're not at, right? And it's graded.

So let's just say you get cut off in traffic, all right? So yeah, you're upset about it, but an hour later you're not thinking about it. But somebody murders your child. Yeah. We're not getting over that an hour, right? And so my hurt and my pain has to be dealt with for a longer duration

than if somebody cuts me off in traffic. And so I think that we have to allow the Word of God to give us permission to invite the Holy Spirit in for however long it requires. And so for me, as long as our motive is based on trusting God for justice, I think that's what makes it pure. And I actually spend a whole chapter talking about God's character as the God of Justice because when I was writing this book, I struggled to find biblical scholarship on that aspect

of God's nature. There's a lot of scholarship on God as loving and merciful and compassionate and gracious, and we thank God for that. what the Lord had to show me though is God can't be a God of love if he's not a God of justice. They're two sides of the same coin. And so I do think that there's a process required and I actually call it the petty framework.

Okay. You're going to tell us. Okay. So it's sequential. The P stands for process the offense. That's where we have to start. Like don't rush to somebody hurts you and you're just like, all right, I forgive, I forgive, I forgive. No, take a minute to process what happened.

And like I actually provide a tool in the book based on a psychologist named Dr. Robert Plutcheek, he did a lot of pioneering work in emotional language. I provide a tool in the book that will give you language, precise language, for how you're feeling. Sometimes we say, oh, I'm just, I'm just angry. When the real word is I'm distraught. Right? Like, once you apply the right word, now the next step is express your anger to God. God, I am distraught over this thing. That's why the impregatory songs are so important. It is, yeah. They give precise language. And I actually, put a petty prayers directory in the book that, like, provides psalms that match the situation.

But after you express anger to God, then you have to trust God for justice. But how can you trust God for justice if you don't even know that he's the God of justice? That's good. So I spend a lot of time looking at both the Old Testament and the New Testament ways that God shows up as the God of justice. Yeah, for the person, though, and I want to ask both of you guys this question, because this is one thing that I've thought about in the past. For the person who is going through a particular type of pain and grief, how do they separate when they should pray for love for the enemies and who should pray for justice? Like how do we not base that merely on our emotion?

Yeah. Does that make sense? Go ahead. Well, I will tell you, that part for me comes at the end of the process. Because you can't even get to love until you've actually been able to come to the Lord with honesty. this is how I feel. After you trust God for justice, the second tea is you trade your resentment for rest. Matthew 1128, very familiar verse.

Jesus actually says, like he gives us the option and the opportunity. I'm going to find it. He says, come to me. If you are weary and you are heavy laden, he said, I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and humble and heart, and you will find rest for yourself. souls. You can't even get to love until you've traded the resentment and the why is yield to love. Now that I've trusted God, I've expressed my anger, I've processed what I've actually experienced.

Now I can love you with the love of the Lord because I'm no longer carrying it anymore. Yeah, and I'm wondering, like, once that healing process and that resentment and all of that stuff is out of there, I think then your prayers are actually very spirit-led. And I think I think I prayers being, because I notice it's spirit led because it's scripture. It's God brief. Right. And so I think that's the first thing I thought about. Like, I think that when we get all that junk out of the way, then we can probably properly be led by the Lord to pray to pray. So something that the Lord convicted me of. And I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts on this. But we know the Word of God tells us, these people they honor me with their mouths, they worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far

from me. The Lord convicted me because he said, Nona, you are praying prayers that you don't even believe. Like you're asking me to bless somebody when your heart is so hurt that you want to, you want them to die, basically, right? And so his question to me, his challenge to me was, what do you think I'm listening to? What you're saying with your lips or what you believe in your heart? And I think this is what makes petty prayers powerful because what I'm doing is I'm actually admitting what I believe and I'm bringing it to the Lord so that I can trade it and then I can allow the Holy Spirit to change my heart. But that can't happen if I'm praying a lie. Yeah. Yeah. What came to my mind and then I have a question is, I actually don't know where this

text is. I was listening to this sermon this morning on Ephesians and how Jesus is our peace. And Tim Keller says something like, you know, we can't, I don't know if he said we can't, but it's almost impossible to love if you don't know you're loved. Absolutely. And I actually think that's a part of the underlying work of the Holy Spirit that when we are honest with God, we also give him space to love us. Like we give him space to comfort us. We give him space to reorient us.

We give him space to change us in such a way where it's like, now that I'm loved, I actually, I have capacity and even empathy and grace to be able to love. Doesn't mean boundaries and all that type of stuff. Because I think what's difficult is like sometimes you're going to be wounded a lot of times, especially if you're in church, you're going to be wounded by people that you still got to do life with. And so it's like, I can't wait for the resentment to leave to love you. Exactly.

I still got to show up to work. I still got to sleep next to you in the bed. I still got a, you know what I'm saying? Sit up under your teaching. Like there's, I'm still in your way. Yeah. And you're still around. Yeah.

You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. My question, who hurt you? Oh. Because we don't even get to these places without experience. Oh, yeah. So. Hey, there's, right in, babe.

I mean, yeah. No, it's real. Like there's, she said, she wrote a book about Precatory Psalms. She been through things. Oh, yeah. Chucky looked at you and said, who did it? Yeah. Well, so I, I actually provide a bunch of different examples.

examples in the book, from like relational to professional, et cetera. But I would say the situation that I had to pray through the longest actually involves my mom. And we're estranged. I've told my story in many books. So this isn't anything I'm just like revealing now. But I grew up in a situation where I'm an only child. And between the ages of five and 11, my mother knew her boyfriend was abusing me and actually had him arrested for it, brought him back home. And the abuse resumed. She was also physically abusive and verbally abusive. And we weren't like a church going home. But in middle school, I had a classmate invite me to church.

And I started going to church, place my faith in Jesus at the age of 12. And I've been saved since then. But my mom, like, she was still abusive. Her boyfriend was abusive until I was 11. And I remember, you know, in my early 20s, because we didn't have a good relationship. I said to her, I want to have a healthy relationship. I said, but we got to talk about what happened in my childhood. And the abuse started when I was five.

until 11 and she said to me, well, it wouldn't have happened if you would have just kept your legs closed. What do you do with that? You can't. Right. Yeah. And I would tell people like about the pain because people would ask like, why don't you talk to your mom? I said, look, we don't have a good relationship. It's just not healthy. And they would be like, well, you only only get one mom. You only get one mom. You got to forgive. Whatever she did, you got to forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive. And I did. I made the decision to forgive her, to release her from the dead of what she did. But that pain was still there. And I know now in retrospect from writing this book in the process, I know that it was praying honestly before the Lord. God, this is how I feel. This hurt me. I would love to have a

mother, but I don't. Like praying honestly, expressing my anger to God, and then trusting God to this situation, trading my resentment for his rest so that I could show up with love. I knew I was healed when about 10 years ago, my mom was in, she was hospitalized and I got a call from the hospital and I went to go see her, and she was actually in a coma, and I was standing at the doorway. This was after years of prayer and being honest with God. I was standing at the doorway, looking at her. She was laying in the bed, frail, and as I looked at her, instead of anger, I felt compassion. I saw her the way God saw her.

I saw her as someone who was so deeply hurt and wounded herself that there was no way that she could love me, the way that I needed to. to be loved. And that's when I knew I was healed because it was no longer like, oh, I don't want to be around her. No, I don't want to. It was like, God, I'm so sorry for her. Man, I'm so sorry. Because hurt people, hurt people. And we forget that. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Well, I have a lot of thoughts. But when I just want to say, I'm sorry did that that happen to you. You know, I think that's really hard and difficult to go through, especially as a child, you know. And I think about prayers like this in the Psalms, I think somebody can hear these prayers and be like, that sounds evil. But I think what I see in prayers like this is also like a form of intimacy in the writer.

Because I think what intimacy does, it just doesn't allow us to know God as a loving God, but also a God who's angry at the wicked. And a God who's a God of love, but also a God of war, that he desires justice. you know and I think in situations like that I guess my question I know God allow you to see your mother how he sees your mother but were there ever times where in that situation you pray for God to I don't know if it was the shaker or you know or and then he answered those prayers and even when we're praying for God not to necessarily get the people back in our life who have hurt us But sometimes God does have to discipline people.

I mean, he disciplined Pharaoh. Yes. I mean, he disciplined him greatly because of his sin. And so what does that look like? And what does that look like in your story? Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low, No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month.

Learn more at nofrills.ca. The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel-efficient cross-track yet. That means less time filling your tank and more time filling your day. More court time. More ride time. More lake time. More camp time. More go time.

The new 2027 Subaru Cross-Trek hybrid. Consumer Reports top-rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Man, yeah, I prayed. I was like, God, I want her to experience the hurt that she gave me. Because in my mind, I was thinking, man, if she experiences the hurt, then she will regret. Because here's another thing I learned. When we offend, when we hurt, when we betray, we actually create a debt in the spirit realm. And what people don't realize is offense, it creates a debt in the spirit. That's why God said, look, I will

repay. Like, you don't have to do that. It creates a debt in the spirit, and that debt has to be paid in one of two ways. The preferred way is repentance. Right? We go before the Lord, we repent, we say the wrong, the error of our ways, we completely turn around and we don't do it again. But if we don't repent, judgment, retribution. It's one or the other, right? And so my prayer was, God, that your, that your conviction would lead to repentance on her part, because I wanted my mom. I wanted her to be in my life. I wanted to have a healthy relationship. But I did.

I prayed. I was like, God, get her. I want her to hurt the way that she hurt me. But see, again, this is how I know I was healed. And this is why I look at what happened with David in 2nd Samuel 1, that he mourned Saul's death. My mom is still alive. But I mourned for my mom. I recently got a call from the hospital.

This was maybe two months ago. She was hospitalized again. And they said to me, they said, hey, you know, can you come? And I was like, of course, I'll come. But the nurse went to ask, can I share information with your daughter? And my mom said, no, don't tell her anything. She put them hip-a-laws in effect. Listen, she was like, oh, no, I don't have a daughter.

That's what she said. And I felt so bad and I felt, again, abandoned. But then I remembered, I was like, that's her hurt, that's her wounding talking. I don't have to receive that. That's her wounding talking. Well, come to find out, my mom had nobody. Like they were trying to call family, friends, somebody to come be with her. She had nobody.

And I realized then I was like, this is God's justice, where God is basically saying, I'm going to strip you down to nothing. So that, number one, you have me and you have your daughter and you got to choose and she's chosen neither. That hurts me. I don't like that. That's how I know my heart changed. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, one thing that has kind of, what's the word, put restrictions on offense for me, is, you know, when you pray, you really do want people to change.

Absolutely. You want to resolve, right? Like, it's like, if you repent, at least it's like, okay, bad. Like, at least you're good with God. And there's this hope, like, well, when the Holy Spirit feels you, you might have more capacity to be different. but it's like if they don't then wanting some type of you want to visualize the vengeance you want to see the justice like I want your leg to break or I want your car to shut down and stuff like that and I start to think about the sermon on the mount and one sins on something not all of it is

ease me up but blessed are the merciful yes and putting that alongside is uh God's kindness leads us to repentance and it was this idea that God is actually more merciful than you. And so he's not even enacting justice at the pace that will make you comfortable out of love for them. Exactly. He's being merciful to them. You know what I'm saying? Like in the same way that he's been merciful to me. And I'm like, oh, okay, like you're just patient. I'm not. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. God is so patient with us. Extremely. What? I don't we I hear it on socials not for real for real I do want to talk about friendship wounds

sure sure because it's significant and it's deep it actually I think it affects us more than we even realize have you experienced that what did that look like how did you work through that because people be besties and did not besties people be a part of weddings and then not a part of women, especially among the female species. Yeah. So. Yeah. Man, listen, last year, and see, I'm the kind of, so since I'm an only child, and because of the trauma that I went through as a child, like, I'm one of those people that,

like, I can be close to you, but not be close to you, right? So it's like I'm open, but I'm kind of guarded in some ways just because I don't know what's going to happen. But I opened my heart to someone. We became best friends. We're calling each other best friends publicly, like together. And this was like over, I don't know, almost a decade. And then last year, just out of the blue.

Out of the blue. We hadn't had an argument. Nothing crazy happened. She was like, we're not best friends. Nothing happened. And I was like... That you can't trace it. Right.

Okay. I was just like... That's confusing. What? And it hurt me so deeply because she was literally the one that I opened up to. Like, I was fully vulnerable. And, you know, transparency is I'll let you see what I want you to see. see. Vulnerability is I will let you see what you can use to hurt me. And I was vulnerable with her.

And that relationship literally dissolved for what I would consider to be almost no reason. But what the Lord showed me, because I also went through a wilderness season last year, that's a whole other story. What the Lord showed me is he said, no, and I had to strip that away because she became your idol to the point where if I was having an issue, she was the first person I called. if I needed advice, she was the first person I called, I didn't even pray about things. I was like, hey, what do you think about this? And so in some ways, while it wounded me, it also became the ground that God used to bring me back to him. And I think that's where we have to be very discerning. It's like, okay, when this relationship is removed, what is it that God is trying to build in me as opposed to taking it personally?

Yes. God is always working in everything, including our losses. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have to come to that same conclusion or I won't be okay. Where I'm having the process. Because I think self-reflection is important. You know what I'm saying? Like we have to be asking the question, God, what is it that you're trying to prune,

bring out of me, cultivating me through the pain? And you won't always have answers, really. The clearest answer usually would be trust me. But if he decides to provide wisdom, you'll see things in yourself. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. It almost feels like you're saying in a lot of ways that God would honor,

like what he would honor our petty prayers if the end goal is peace. Yes. Yes. And in healing. Like what I believe is that that's why the process I say is sequential. After you go through that process, your heart will be so changed. Like, I don't want vengeance, you know, like I don't want to see my enemy hurt, right? At the beginning, oh, take them out.

Listen, take them all the way out. As a matter of fact, take them out publicly. Okay? Let everybody see it. Let it go viral. But now, no, God, I just want them to know you. Even if they never apologize to me. I just want them to know you.

That's a heart change. That's so dope. because I think that's the heart of God. I think God does everything for the good of those who love him, but he does everything for good, ultimately. And so even if he's destroying cats, he's doing it for a good purpose. And I think if our end goal is peace and just unity, sometimes bad things have to happen for people to be repenting, unified,

and that's just the reality. Yeah. Earlier you mentioned bitterness, and we had a conversation with Tony Collier, what we talked about, bitterness, and just kind of what that looks like, how that feels, how it manifests. And I think we looked at the definition of bitterness, which is feelings that are the result of an injustice. And I think that that can make bitterness hard to let go of and even discern because it's usually some legitimate reason for the feeling. And so I guess how would a person discern what this is is actually bitterness?

Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up because anger and bitterness are two different things. Anger is episodic, right? Like this thing happened. I expressed the emotion of anger because this thing happened. Bitterness is like a lingering, seething resentment that, and the Bible speaks very clearly about it, that if you don't uproot it, many will be defiled. It creates a debt.

Like bitterness literally creates a debt. And what's funny is you think, oh, well, if that person just a person just a person. apologize and everything would be good. But because bitterness creates a debt, you end up making everybody else pay for what they did. Because it changes your personality. You need it to be repaid. I need this to be repaid. So I think you know you're carrying bitterness when it's almost like the people around you, you're actually making them repay it. I was convicted with my children, this was some years ago. I really needed their like love. I needed their attention. And I remember there were times when I felt like, like, y'all aren't loving me the way that you should as a mom.

And God convicted me and he showed me that I was still bitter and I was actually holding them responsible for the love my mom didn't give me. And so that's what bitterness does is you now start to expect from other people repayment for the person's debt. Because chances are they're not going to apologize. I think that's how you know the difference. That's really deep because I've always considered bitterness towards one person that hurts you. But it can, I'm thinking about that, I think it can trinkle down to other relationships because, yeah, it just festeres and grows like wildflower.

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Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. One thing I've processed with Preston the line, and me, like, working through this book on sanctification is how I think it's really hard to deal with sins that are emotional. Because it's not tangible in a sense. Like, on some level, if we don't get underneath the surface, drunkenness, okay, remove the bottle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't go to the bar. Like, that's practical. Sex. Just don't go over to house and watch Netflix. Right. Like, it's a tangible activity. Bitterness, covetousness, envy.

I can't grab it and remove it. Right? And so what is like the, how do you practically remove an emotion? Yeah. What do you do? Well, I think first we have to make a, I believe that we have to live a life of consecration. A life of consecration is one where we literally on a daily moment by moment basis. We're asking God examine me, show me what's in me. Because he's faithful.

He will. Like if you invite the Lord. And there's always what you didn't expect. Listen, be like, what? But I didn't. I would. He will show you what's in you. And I do think that that's when we have to bring it to the Lord as an offering.

Because you're right. Like emotional, emotional sins? Yeah. I don't even know, because that's a soul issue. Yes. It's not even a flesh issue. It's a soul issue. Yeah.

We need the fruit of the spirit to actually uproop that in our soul. Yeah. I think there's a connection because I'm processing all that. I'm taking this in. I think there's. a connection between sinful emotions and lies we've believed.

Where doing the work of seeing the lie, so God's saying, like, even recently, I'm like, okay, Lord, I don't want to be ignorant of the enemy schemes. Like, show me all the lies I'm believing. So you become aware of the lie

that's producing the emotion. And so it's like dealing with the lie, exchanging it for truth, putting it before the Lord and saying, I actually don't believe that. Yeah. I'm actually struggling with that idea. but I want to believe it.

I think that starts to loosen the emotional hold. I kind of feel like that might be a part of it. It has been for me. Yeah, yeah. And I think also too, I think it can be very hard emotionally for somebody who is actively being wounded or who has been wounded for you to take that to the Lord and the first thing he showed you with you. Yeah.

It's like God. Yeah. He heard, you know, but oftentimes I think God wants to get some resolve by showing you, you first. Because if we don't see ourselves properly, it's even going to taint how we process trauma and offense. And I guess the question, my question is, how do we, I don't even know if it's a, yeah, I guess the question is, how do we, how do we deal with that? Like, emotionally. like, is it dishonesty with the Lord? Like, how do we deal with that?

Man, so what just came to me, and I'm going to tie both of your thoughts together because I think they're very profound, is emotions in many ways in the spirit realm, it's an altar. And the emotion is strengthened by the offerings that we make. And so when you think about bitterness, right? And like, let's just say, you're like,

man, I don't want to feel this way. I don't want to feel this way anymore. The question becomes, well, what offerings are you making to bitterness. You know, are you, are you talking about this with people? Are you meditating on it when Philippians 4 and I think it's 8 tells us, you know, whatever things are true and noble and admirable, like that's what you're supposed to be thinking on. But I'm thinking on what they did. And so every, and this is where it gets really challenging. That's why I said we got to live a life of consecration. Every ounce of energy that we give to a thing is literally an offering. Wow.

And so I would say that if you know that your emotions are in a form of sin, okay, you really have to consider what offerings are I making. And stop. Stop. I am going to literally take this thought captive. I'm going to make it obedient to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Like I'm going to do that. I'm going to, in the moment, say, get thee behind me, Satan.

That is a lie. Like, I'm going to take authority over it. You have to exercise. And I think perhaps that's the challenge is we don't use the authority that we have. We just assume that we're basically victims of our circumstances. Like, no, no, no, we have authority to take some things captive. More than conquerors. Yeah.

We're more than conquerors. Yeah. But I was just, me and Jackie was having a conversation the other day, too. And I think a lot of times it's very hard, because one, Jesus was the model for all of this. Correct. You know, I think we know that theoretically, like, through scripture. Everybody offends him all the time. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. But it's like, but it's like you were God. And so I'm not even going to front with y'all to be like, you know, you were, you were man. I know you condescended and took on human flesh and dwelt amongst your own creation. But at the same time, you was God, bro. Yeah, right. Can I challenge? No, no, no.

I was about to say. Round it out. The challenge. I think the challenge is, for me, is, though he was God, he was also man. Yeah. He was also human. And so I'm thinking about just what Jesus endured.

Like, I just couldn't imagine me washing somebody's feet who I knew was going to portray me. Yeah. Like, I knew it. Yeah. Like, we'd be having a hard time forgiving people who portrayed us. Listen, I won't even like your post. Right. Right.

You understand what I'm saying? I ain't even want to follow you're just going to be muted. Yeah. Like it gets that. You know what I'm saying? And so like it's just like And so I think when me and Jackie was talking about this

because we both writing books where we're processing kind of the same things in a couple chapters and just our own trauma, our own portrayal, our own, you know, things that we went through. It's like, man, Jesus really does leave us without an excuse. You know what I'm saying? But he shows us how to be fully human. And not only did he not leave us with no excuse, he left us with the power to actually live a life where there's no excuses.

And I think that's the missing link. It's like we don't have to, it may seem that way, right? Like we just have to go with the flow. It's like, no, you don't have to do that. In a moment, in an instant, you can literally decide through the Holy Spirit, I'm going to live a different way in a moment. Yeah, that's powerful. It's very powerful. I wasn't going to challenge you for not.

Maybe challenges the hard work, because you know the men in our comments, but more so the hearing, like how people were here. Because I remember being in a class about Christology, and they were talking about how, you know, Christ has two natures, you know, God and man, but how he laid aside his rights, Philippians too, not his deity, but his rights. and therefore his life on earth was lived as a man by the power of the Holy Spirit. And so it's like I think sometimes I think we have a high view of his deity and a low view of his humanity. So we think that it wasn't hard.

It was. Right. It's like, no, he was walking by faith. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's why Philippians too is one of my favorite passages because, and Hebrews 14. I think they're connected because it shows us that we, It highlights Jesus' condescension in his incarnation, but it lets us know that he laid aside a lot of those rights so that, and so like even in Hebrews 414, when it says we have a great high priest who was passed

through the heavens, for we didn't have our high priest who was unable to impetus without weakness. It says, come to the throne of grace because we actually have a high priest who knows how to help us because he went through the hard thing of being here. And so like we can find grace. We can find help in our time of need because he's. God, but he can find grace and understanding because he knows how hard it is. And so there's grace and help at the throne. And so I think I have to consistently remember that because I think even people who understand Jesus' incarnation and how it relates to human, you know, humanity, we all can still

get lost in the fact that you're God. Yeah. I think you have to, I think, I think that you have to actively meditate on God man, God man. Yeah. And that he laid. And that he laid. And that he lay. a laid aside his rights as God. Like, you know, because I think sometimes we can think a God as a judge and not a God who actually became like us to empathize with us. And can we also just, and I was just thinking about this, like, this does not catalog a moment by moment of Jesus's life. That's true.

And so we know that before he even publicly launched his ministry, the devil was like, hey, let me holl at you for a minute, right? Imagine how many other times that happened. that isn't chronicled here. I can imagine Jesus, like the whole kingdom of darkness was just like,

get him, get him, get him, get him, get him. And that's not, like, we don't see it all here. So I do believe that Jesus walked through so much more than we even see. So we have to know that. Like whatever temptations come your way, whatever challenges come your way,

I need you to like raise it to like the thousandth power because they knew who they knew who they were dealing with. So they weren't just like, I'm just sprinkle a little temptation. No, no, no, no. It was everything you can imagine

and then some. And it's not all in this book. We have to know that. Yeah, yeah. I got it. Go ahead. I was just going to say, too. You got a question,

man. I can wait. I have a text. In 2nd Corinthians, 4, 7, Paul says, but we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the surpassing power

belongs to God and not to us. we are afflicted in every way but not crushed perplexed but not driven to despair, despair persecuted but not forsaken, struck down, but not destroy. Here's the key. Always carrying in the body the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our bodies for we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake. So mind you, he's describing despair and persecution and being struck down and being perplexed our experiences of death.

we are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake so that the life is resurrection power so that the life of Jesus also made me manifest in our motor flesh. And so it's like even our difficult circumstances are giving us two opportunities to share in the death of Jesus and share in the life of Jesus.

And how do you share in the resurrection life of Jesus if you have not also died with him? And so I think we underestimate how pain produces intimacy and knowledge of God. It's the book, primarily. It's life experience. And you get what I'm saying? You get to see him and know him differently

when you go through the things that he also went through. Yeah. That's so good. I love Romans 8. I read Romans 8 almost every day, just as a reminder. For sure. Verse 3,

for what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did, by sending his own son in the likeness. of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. So he condemns sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us

who do not live according to the flesh but according to the spirit. Like to me that is a constant reminder that I, through the spirit, can live as Jesus lived. That's good. It's just a constant reminder. It's like in Jesus, through the flesh,

lived as I live, right? It's just a constant reminder that like, yeah, there's two sides of the coin here. Fully God, fully man. There's nothing I've experienced that he didn't overcome. Yeah. But he had to experience it to overcome it. Yeah, that's good.

As it pertains to, oh, sorry. As it pertains to, like, God listening to our prayers when it comes to, like, getting people. Yeah. I want to talk about faith. Sure. Because one thing I, when we talk about Jesus, the thing that I've been thinking about consistently is the relationship that he had with his father. Even though he was a man and he struggled with thoughts and stuff like that,

I think the relationship that he had with his father kind of informed how he moved with people because he was secure this way. Yes. Right? And I think a lot of times, even in my life, I think I've doubted, is God going to protect me? Or does he see me?

How much, yeah, speak to that fear of feeling like God, you ain't going to, like, you just got me out here. You just got me out here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is like, this is the crux of bitterness.

The reason why so many of us are stuck in that place is because, and I think you might have mentioned it earlier, we doubt the depth of God's love for us. Right. And so it's kind of like, yeah, I know he loves me in like the like abstract sense of like, yeah, he's my father. But it's like, no, he's like really on my side. He is for me. I think that's what made David such a powerful example. He was able to be brutally honest because he completely trusted that God loved him. And like he was able to be completely himself because he knew that God loved him.

I think when you know somebody loves you, there, you know, there's no fear. There's no fear there, right? perfect love, cast out fear. So it's like, I know that I'm loved perfectly. So I can come to the Lord honestly. And I don't have to worry about judgment, condemnation. I don't have to worry about that because he already knows. Yeah. Yeah. That's the part we forget. God literally already knows how you feel and what you think. The only person that you are fooling is yourself. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Because it can feel like, you know, God not punishing people who's hurting you now feels like the father that was absent. Yeah. It feels like the big brother didn't come to your aid.

It feels like men not protecting you throughout your life. I think because God is a patient God, he's also patient with our enemies. And I think that's the hard thing. It's like, God, you ain't have to be patient with me. Don't be patient with them. They're evil, you know. And so he just slows to repentance with everybody. But that's, that's, that's, we slow the raft to everybody.

Man, that's just the beauty of God. I think you might mention it earlier, Jackie, about just the pace. God's pace is not our pace. It's different. It ain't. because he is merciful. He is long suffering. I read through the Old Testament.

And when I read through the Old Testament, why I begin so angry? Because I'm just like, well, they tried Him. They tried God over and over and over and over again. And then I'm convicted. Yeah. I tried Him over and over and over again. I think it's what you said in a sermon.

One of your best quotes. I'm probably going to jack it up. But you said, God is so loving that when he finally displace his wrath, it shocks us. Yeah. I said we're so. used to God's forbearance that when he does exact justice, we're more surprised by his judgment

than we are by his mercy. And it's because he's so gracious that when he said that I was in the front row like, sheesh. It's like when he does decide to give us what we deserve, it's like, oh my gosh, why would you do that? It's like, oh, you don't got too comfortable. Yeah. And aside note, a lot of people who try to like say the God is a moral monster, try to like say the Bible is, it's like, y'all only saying that is because like when he did display his rive it was rare yeah like he was merciful for a hundredths of years and y'all talking about these two times yeah yeah yeah yeah you um have been through a lot you know with your family and in your friendships but i see like you and naomi are cool like y'all are close how how do you trust again like how do you because that that's

scary. Yeah. You know, it's so funny, like even my relationship with her. Who is Naomi? Naomi Rain. Yeah, that's my, that's my sis. I, sing now. That's wild. I feel like there's a calling. Don't you worry. I can see you doing like an unplug. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can sing just like her. Yeah, unplugging. Wow. He was offended by that. He just knew he had a golden pocket. He just knew he had a golden I'll repent. I'll repent. That friendship is so interesting because it came out of like nowhere.

Like it wasn't something that I think either of us were really working on. And it's so funny. We actually laugh about it because we met the thing at Jen's house. Remember some years ago, right? Yeah, during COVID. During COVID. Did you get COVID? I did not get COVID praise you.

Because somebody came up in there with the COVID. Oh, quick story. Somebody came up in there with the COVID and you know everybody was mindful. And they kept coughing. And I said, I said, I don't know, it's not COVID job. She said bronchitis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I got a call.

This person got cold with this. I said, you just wanted to be a part of the party. Listen, no. But we, so we met at that gathering. And what's really funny, because I'm the kind of person, like, I don't be knowing people. I just don't. Because I'm not on social media like that. I don't know who people are.

So when I met her, we just met as just individuals. And then a few years later, Because we kind of running into each other, just speaking that thing, she's singing at things. It was like, we need to hang out. And our first hang out, we laughed about this now. We went to Vegas for like three days to just like hang out. And we laugh about it. That's Sin City.

We laugh. Well, the funny part, though, is we didn't just like go to lunch. It's like, why did we go on a trip? We hadn't even spent time. And we just went on a three-day trip. Oh, that's, but it was. That's risky. It was so risky.

And I think we both, like the day we were flying there, we both were like, wait, what did we just do? But it was such a blessing. And I think what makes that relationship for me so healthy is like there's just no expectation, right? It's like I show up for her. She shows up for me. It's just, it's something that there's just no, there's no expectation for it. And God through her, I haven't even told her this. So if she watches it, she can hear it.

God healed parts of me through her that I didn't even know were wounded. when the whole thing happened with my former best friend, I think a few months later it was my birthday. And I was going to go away for a few days to the beach just by myself. And she asked me, she was like, what do you know if your birthday? I was like, oh, I'm just going to the beach and just like pray and be with the Lord. And she was like, I'm going too. And she showed up.

And that was literally, I think, the weekend, she was like releasing a song. So she needed to go do stuff. And she came to be with me. Not even knowing what I have been going through. So that was such a blessing. Yeah. Can I ask both of you guys a question? Yeah.

Okay, so this is kind of off-top subject a little bit, but I, like, so I'm writing this book, right? And in the chapter, I feel like the Lord is. I thought you studying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am studying. I feel like the Lord wants me to address male loneliness as a relates to friendship. And I think, I think what I've been seeing really dealing. I like where you're going. really what I'm dealing with men,

I think there's an epidemic of just men who are wounded but lonely. Yeah. And I think in the body of Christ, we see a lot of men and women who are just struggling in the area of friendship and just being known and being seen. And how the Bible says it's not good for us to be. Like, we need multiple community.

And so how do we combat that? Because I think we see a lot of unhealthy Christians because they don't have true friendship. You know what I'm saying? And so like, but as we get older, it becomes so harder. Yeah, way harder. Just be friends for folks. You know, life happens.

People change people. And then it's like, I feel like the older, because I have a men's Patreon. And what I've seen, the older that they got, the more life they live, the more they've been wounded. And I think that's what all of us, the more we get wounded, the harder it is to connect with people. How do we combat that as Christian?

I know you have some Facebook statistics or something. I actually don't have none right now, but yeah, it's a big epidemic for sure. I'm just the believer, to have a friend, you got to be a friend, you know? But I will say this, and specifically in circles that I'm in, I think that we have to be very careful that we don't target friends based on what we think we can get from them. them. And I think that what I've seen is people get into like these clicks where it's just like, I don't want to be that person's friend because of what they can do for me. I think, no, like, you need to show up. Like if my friends are having a conference, I'm buying a ticket. But I'm not going

to just like, hey, put me into VIP. No, no, no, I'm buying a ticket because you're my friend. I'm going to support what you're doing. I think that's what it means to be a friend. And so before you can even make a demand on someone, I think you need to show up. To me, that's just part of what it needs to be a friend. Quick question. I plan on writing something along the lines that I feel like it's harder for men to have friends than women. And I want to be careful. I want to know, do you guys think that's true? Because I think men, I think men, we've been a man and we would talk about LeBron and Mike and sports immediately, but it don't seem like we go as deep as fast as women. Yeah, I don't, I personally, I don't think it's harder for men to have friends. I actually think

it's easier. I think it's harder for men to have depth. Okay. I think that's the difference. Because even in Daniel, I don't know her, she has this book on friendship where she talks about with women, they go deep because they're transparent, parent, and they're vulnerable. And that's also why they fall out quicker. Men, y'all are kind of fine, staying on the surface talking about New York City and LeBron and Nix and the thing and da-da-da-da-da. But when you really going through something, there's a fear of that. So like the connection isn't as deep. And therefore, the friendship lasts longer, but there's less intimacy. Yeah. And I want to, and I want to say, but that's also why I feel like the enemy is taking a lot of men out. Because I do think

that when you go through life, not being fully known, it is way easy for you to drift. And I think, and so I think that's, I'm sorry. This is, I'm talking about something totally that I've been processing. But I'm, yeah, I think, you got to pray, prayer. I think, I think this is good because I actually just reflected on there's a pastor friend of mine who has a best friend that I know of a best friend. He's a man.

Yes. But I remember like he was going through something like significant. It was like a health challenge or something. And he didn't even tell his best friend. I know. I know. And mind you, a girl, if I find out you going to do something and you tell me, I'm questioning things.

Because like why didn't you? Why didn't you tell me? What do that mean about us? Are we not friends anymore? Correct. Men are so different than women because, like, you know, like, I know so many men like that. Yeah. Yeah.

And I've gotten mad at my friends for not telling me certain stuff. Yeah. But that's not like a thing amongst men. But it should be, actually. It actually should be. I think women are more healthy than men in some ways. It gets back to, I think you hit the nail in the head, Jackie. It's like, and I said it kind of earlier, but transparency and vulnerability are two different things.

I think men do well at transparency. to where it's like, I'm going to make you feel like you're in. But I'm not going to invite you in in a way that you could actually hurt me. Yes. With what I show you. Us, we're like, girl, let me tell you by such and such. And that's why we fall out and it just, it just, it blows up because you know all my stuff. Yeah, y'all fall out because y'all went so deep.

Yes. The pain is deeper. Yeah. And the expectation is higher. Yeah. That's the difference. I know we need to get back to petty prayers. I know.

I just want to say this. I feel what also is coming to my mind, I'm not saying it's right, but I think processing how fatherlessness plays a part in how men relate to other men. Because that may be the undercurrent of fear is that I can't trust a man to love me. Oh, absolutely.

So it isn't as surface. I feel like you might have talked about that before. We haven't. We should, though. I'm talking about like in our personal time, not on a podcast, but... Yeah, I don't remember. Okay, yeah, maybe. And the other side of that is if your relationship with your father, the type of love that you've experienced has been very transactional.

Like, you basically understand the model of male relationships based on that. So it's like, oh, yeah, this is what it means to be in a relationship with a man. It's like, we hang out. When are we talk that much? How you doing? I'm good. You good? I'm good.

I'm good. All right, we're good. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Wow. Okay, I'm sorry for change the subject. Boundaries.

Yeah. I think that's an important conversation, especially for when you're dealing with pain, injustice, abuse, forgiveness, offense. And I think boundaries are discussed a lot nowadays, and I'm always wondering if people are processing the concept wisely, because you have some people who are placing boundaries when it actually is bitterness or not long-suffering, but you also have some people. was like, okay, I got to forgive. So let me let you back in the house and let me text you.

Like, what are boundaries? Yeah. And how do you know when you need them and how do you do it wisely? Oh, boy. So in order to discuss boundaries, I have to also discuss standards and rules because I think that we use those words wrong. So we will say I have a boundary when what we actually mean is we have a rule. A rule is something that I apply to you.

Like, you can't do this. That's my boundary. No, no, no. a boundary is what I apply to me. A boundary is, I don't do this. So to give you an example, I don't, you know, if you don't want to take calls after 10 p.m., you don't have to place that rule on somebody.

You could just say, I don't take calls after 10, period. And if they call you after 10 p.m., they're not breaking your rule. You just have to hold your boundary. A standard is this is the minimum expectation. This is what I expect at minimum. And I think that we conflate those terms. And I do think that we think boundaries are somehow negative. when really all boundaries do is they delineate what's mine and what's yours to own.

That's good. And it's very simple. It's like, look, on this side of the fence, offense, let's just say it's an offense. On this side of the offense, I own whatever it is that I did, whatever it is that I caused, I own that. You own the other side. I can't take responsibility for what you own. You can't take responsibility for what I own. And that's okay.

I'm not bitter because you're not taking responsibility for what you own. I'm just taking responsibility for me. That's the boundary. That's good. That's good. that's a very great distinction. Lisa Turquhart has a great book on the subject of boundaries that I think is helpful. I have to ask, how have you placed boundaries if you have around your relationship with your mom?

I have. Is that too personal? No, I was good. Listen, I talk openly about this stuff. Because my mom's not in a healthy place, what I've had to do is, like, I know what she needs. I take care of her financially. I actually have friends in her life that keep up with her

and she doesn't even know they're in her life because of me. So I make sure that she's taken care of but I can't have interaction with her. Like we don't sit on the phone and talk all day long. It's just not healthy for me. And so that's a boundary that I've had to set

is how I show up with my mom but I do make sure that she's taken care of. Yeah, yeah. Wow. You got word for the people? I'm going to close with something. Me? Me?

Mm-hmm. Man. I think the thing I want people to take away from this book specifically is like, God can handle your truth. He can handle your honesty. You don't have to pray pretty prayers and make it seem like you're in a place that you're not. I think as long as you do that, denial actually becomes a stronghold. And so strongholds keep us stuck in a place that God wants to deliver us out of. And so I think it starts with honesty.

I mean, that's my prayer. It's just like I even have in the back of this book a prayer for deliverance because it's like, y'all, we got to to renounce bitterness. We got to renounce anger, fear, all of that. It has a stronghold in our lives. And I think once we do that, we invite the Holy Spirit in to do the work that the fruit of the spirit can do. I think that's very powerful. Because I think essentially what you're encouraging people to do is to feel, whatever they feel, was just fill it with God. Absolutely. Yeah, because I think when we fill it with God, we develop more intimacy. But we also, our prayers become right in his presence. And I think apart from him, it's just,

It's bitterness, it's hatred, it's envy, it's all the things. So feel what you feel. Just feel it with me. Absolutely. I got one like, quick. Did you get straight A's? Can you communicate like you got straight A's?

Like you was part of the like honor society. I used in AP classes. You were? I can tell. I love that. All right, y'all. Bye. Peace.

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