With The Perrys - Infertility and Finding God After Unanswered Prayer with Jennifer Lucy Tyler

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Every one of us will, at some point in our lives, come to realize that our faith alone can’t produce everything we want, when we want it. It’s hard to trust the Lord when we’re praying prayers that haven’t been answered.   Jennifer Lucy Tyler joins the Perrys to talk about what she’s learned about God’s sovereignty through her journey of infertility. She shares about experiencing the joy of the Lord – even when He’s not given you the thing you desperately want – and why through our lament, we can still have hope that what He has for us is good.   Check out Jennifer’s new book, When Dreams Fall Apart: How Unanswered Prayers Can Deepen Your Intimacy with God https://www.amazon.com/When-Dreams-Fall-Apart-Unanswered/dp/0802435521   Scripture references Lamentations 3:21-24 Exodus 17:10-13 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Okay, hi guys. What up? We just had a very brief conversation about Preston having a pillow on his lap. Oh, wow. To cover his... He'd be inviting people into all our little conversations. But it's funny because... It's just comfortable because sometimes I get the Bible and then I can set it on.

You want a desk. Yeah, that'd be actually dope if we buy like little desks. What, Brianna? Brianna. Desis. I know that's not proper English, but sometimes, you know what I'm saying? Can I just be a representation of where I came from? I just want people to know.

You know what? In the hood, we say desis. There are people in the desk. That actually pronounce words correctly. That's a you problem. Yeah. Don't you not blame your demographic for choosing to say stuff the wrong way. That has been such a test in our marriage sometimes when, like, we've been on public platform.

Let me not say it because then people will start watching it. It's just, Preston will just say stuff. And in my mind, I in the moment, want to correct it not to correct it. not to correct him, but so that he don't end up being embarrassed. I'll be, I'll be looking at, for you. You can go ahead and correct me, and it is what it is. I'd be saying a lot of stuff right. Like desses.

Desk. Desk. Desk. Say act. Act. Say it in a sentence. See, I be, I know how to say the words right. I just, you know what I'm saying?

I just be loose when I'm comfortable, but she'd be trying to expose me. It's all good. You like my shirt. Say Valentine's Day. Valentine. Valentine. She, I'll be saying. It's another word you say that it just, it got a strong hold on you.

I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is either. Anyway. You like my shirt? It got my name on it. Yeah. I'm sorry, Jennifer, for inviting you into this. She's over here looking like, she's so sorry.

She was looking like Jackie's so judgmental. I saw it. Nope. I saw it, Jennifer. I saw any eyes. She was judging me. You was judgment. No, I wasn't.

I get it. I just, you know, it's just a, it's just a thing in the manner. I'll just be like, ooh, that sentence was something right there. But let me not say nothing because I got to respect it. You know, I got to just hold that on. Anyway, Jennifer Lucy Tyler is joining us. You are one of those people, you know, everybody calls me by my whole name. Yeah.

You are one of them people where when I think, even this week, people are like, who you recording with? Jennifer Lucy Tyler. And I'm like, why I keep saying her whole name? But to say Jennifer don't sound sufficient because, you know, you come from an era where there was a bunch of Jennifer's, was Brittany's Jessica's, Ashley's Amanda's. But Jennifer Tyler's like, ah, the Lucy. Yeah. Just works.

And I think, I used to hate my middle name growing up. But as I got older, I was like, let me embrace this. Oh, so that was your, so I was going to ask. I didn't know if Lucy was your maid name and you want to keep it. Kind of how Jackie Hill, Perry. Right. Okay, cool. Because Jackie didn't want to keep my name at first when we first came out.

We're here to talk to Jen about Jen. She was like, no, I want to be Jackie Hill. And I was like, uh, that's not the way Coveney works. We're here to talk to you about you. So the Lord, the Lord used your parents and named you Lucy.

Yes, because I have two grandmothers who had that name. Okay. Oh, that's dope. That's beautiful. That is a beautiful. That's like your middle name. Babe,

you bet not. Jen has a book called When Dream. See, she on one a day. Ha! This is what happens when you start podcasted at 2. Because we usually shoot at 10. It's 2 p.m.

I'm winding down. When dreams fall apart, how unanswered prayers can deepen your intimacy with God. When did you know that you should write a book about something that was actually hard to go through? I knew that what I was walking through needed to be shared with others because other people were walking through similar things. And I realize that this is not just a me problem, but every believer experiences this. I mean, we do know that God answers prayer. But every believer, every Christian, if you ask them, there's something that they are praying for or trust in the Lord for that has not yet been answered. And so there's attention there.

There's that, I call it the messy middle that can get a little crazy at times if you don't know who God is. And so I just wrote that to really walk with people, not necessarily. I don't believe my book is a solution, like a self-help kind of book, but it's like, all right, let's help you to be able to see God in all of this as you are wrestling and as you're walking through and as you're waiting for God to answer or perhaps he does answer and you don't like the answer. Yeah.

You know, that part. And that happens frequent. And it's what I have walked through and what I am continuing to walk through. Yeah. Yeah. So I know your, I don't know all of you. your story. I know a lot of it. Me and Jennifer met a couple years ago, I think, at Jew three. But I feel like we followed each other for a minute. And I know a big feature in your story

was dealing with years of infertility. We have women who are watching, who are listening, who are probably going through that, have been through that. And some people deal with it quietly, especially because I just know in the church where being a parent, being a mother, being pregnant comes with a lot of high esteem and gladness. And you could feel shame. Like, I'm always even careful when people been married for a year. Like, when y'all having a baby? It's like, you don't, you don't know what they're doing. Like, even those questions can provoke some type of something. So I guess I just want us to walk through that using your story. as a means to do it.

Yeah. Gosh, so my husband and I got married in 2011, and we ended up getting pregnant our first year of marriage, and then I had a miscarriage. And after that miscarriage, you go and you're trying again. And I always say year one passed, year two, three, four, five. And the years continue to pass. And at the time, I thought, what am I doing? wrong, you know. Am I not saying the right things? Am I not praying the right prayers? And I

started to look at myself. And that, a lot of shame came with that, a lot of sorrow, a lot of anger came with it. Why anger? Because there was a time where I did not view God. in the right light. I thought that I'm doing all the right things. I am checking the boxes. You know, I got with my husband and I waited. We waited until we got married. We did everything right.

I'm serving you, you know. And my husband is an educator. Kids love him. And so every- I got a good baby daddy. Yes. I got a good baby daddy. daddy, all the things. And so, and then I would see other people. And I started comparing myself.

I would see, you know, let me, let me, I'm not even going to say who I would see. I almost did. But I would see different people be blessed that I thought maybe didn't deserve to be blessed in that way. Yeah. Because maybe they didn't honor God in my eyes the way that I thought they should. Yeah. And so I should. I should. And so I should. there was a season of struggling with disappointment, anger, shame, all of those things. And the Lord had to do some work on me in that time. And so we ended up a few years ago going through IVF and then having another miscarriage, even in that. And it was painful, you know.

And so through that process, we did end up conceiving. It wasn't, it didn't look like how I thought. What does that mean? Meaning I thought, well, I wanted to have a child when I first got married. I was married at 29. My husband was 30. You know, we were young now. I'm chasing, today I'm chasing a two-year-old around at I'll be 44 next week.

Yeah. You know, and... People think you lying, but she just looked... Yeah, you look at all. Thank you, Lord. But I didn't expect that. That wasn't what was in my life plan or, you know, back in the back-in-a-day vision board, you know. And so, yeah, but God needed to do some work on my heart, I guess, through that process.

And I had to unlearn some unhound some unhound. healthy views and theology about how I view God at the time. Give me one of them. Believe in that my faith is able to produce everything that I want. You know? Somebody would say, now what you're saying now, Jen? When we look at the Gospels, we got Jesus saying, and your faith made you well.

Yes. Right. And so how did you work? through the tension of, I see you doing all the things for people because of faith. Yes. And I have faith. Right. But it ain't working for me.

Yeah. I had to understand and learn about the sovereignty of God. And also that he wants us to have faith, but also it is his will be done, not my will. That's good. And so I had to learn that. that piece. Like, okay, God, you want me to have faith in who you are and know, and we know that you can do this. I know that you can open my womb. I know that you can give me a child, but I needed to get to the place of, but God, what is your perfect will? And to be okay with his perfect will,

not looking like what I expected for it to look like. And that was hard. And in my book, I talk about, and I try to give space and room for people to lament the heart. That's good. To know that it's okay to go through a season of, you know, this is hard and sorrow with it, but I'm going to hope in who you are and trust that whatever you have for me is good. Yeah. That's great. I was looking up a scripture, and I'm trying to find it, but it's a, it's a,

scripture that I'm gonna keep looking for it but before I get there I some years ago like five years ago I did a conference with this with this lady who struggled with infant infatility right and she talked about like her struggles and all the things but what blessed me she ended up talking about what her husband went through do that process yes and I think a lot of times you know we focus on the woman which we should I think men don't go through their bodies don't go through nothing that women go through, right? But I think a lot of times, you know, people forget that the husband struggles too doing that process. He struggles with law, struggles with doubt, struggles with frustration, and he's caring for you, you know what I'm saying? And so talk about the stress and the

mental strain that your husband probably went through in that process. The stress and the mental strain that he went through, he did not show me. And I wish that he did at times. but he processed that with his community of men. And I realized through our conversations that he was hurting, because I would wonder was he hurting as much as I was because he didn't necessarily show that to me. But that was just because of his desire to protect me, his desire to care for me,

and him knowing, that by me seeing him stressed or upset about it, that would also be even more painful for me. But he did experience and have to process his own way of dealing with the infertility and therapy and with his brothers as well. Yeah, because I've often heard that, you know, that when a woman is going through that type of men who wrestle with her body, the frustration of not. being able to conceive a husband also carrying the emotional weight of his wife. Yes.

But just being very careful to not show disappointment because we don't want to invoke any other more shame on our wives. You know what I'm saying? It might be theirs because like you are already dealing with your own shame. Yeah. But it's like y'all in this together. So if you bring forth a baby, it's his baby too. Yes.

And so I think, you know, a lot of times men don't have an outlet to, to, to, to, actually show that expression in their house. And so he has to have brothers. That's good that he had brothers to, like, confide in. I'm so grateful he does, you know, because I realized that he needed to process all of that as well. Yeah. I found the scripture real quick.

I'm going to just read it because I love the fact that you talked about the will. You know what I'm saying? Before you read that, can I just ask a question that is in the lane, y'all are in real quick. Because I think I would love if both of you could speak to, men about how to love their wives well in seasons of grief, especially as it relates to infertility, because me and you have also experienced a situation with a friend who miscarried and the husband felt like because it wasn't a full-grown baby, because she wasn't 38 weeks

or 37 weeks, that it wasn't. That was a rough time. Rock, how could even do that? It wasn't a big deal. And so she was grieving the death of this child. Wow. And he was treating it like it wasn't the death of a child. Yeah.

And it really wasn't. You could tell he really didn't see it as it was. And so to me, you have the great husbands who are caring and who are loving and who are thoughtful. You have the other ones who might be leaning on the sociopathic scale. They just don't understand. And so how do we do this well? Yeah. You go first.

I think first understanding that a woman's experience is going to be different from yours and how it's different. The moment we get that positive pregnancy test, we are pregnant with child and we begin in our hearts and minds. We start to dream. We start to plan. We understand that, you know, we have conceived. And so an attachment starts from the moment we find out that, you know, we're pregnant. And so the husband may not, you may not necessarily have that attachment because it's not you carrying. And so a lot of times the husband's attachment tends to grow more so when they see.

They can feel the baby. They can feel the baby. they can see and then it's like, oh no, there really is a human in the air. That's good. So just understanding for us, it just starts from that moment. And to just really treat your wife with, you know, with honor and care, understanding that. That's good. Yeah.

That's great. I know the script it tells us to love our wives as our own bodies, as ourselves. And a lot of times it's kind of hard because our experiences are so different. Yeah. Like a friend that he was talking, that Jackie was talking about, because he doesn't experientially know what it, what it feels like to have a human being growing inside of you.

I often think about that. Like when my wife was pregnant, it's like, you got a whole person inside of your body. That's why you eat all the chicken. It's like, she used to be bash and food. But there was also a sense where the fullness of the revelation, just to use spiritual language, didn't happen until labor.

Yeah. It was like, oh, it isn't like you didn't know, but it's just, I think it's a different experience. So I can, I think speaking to what Jen is, like the detachment and attachment thing is a thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think men have to consistently communicate with their wives, not to just know theoretically, be like, no, like,

you have to truly understand what she's going through mentally, spiritually. And I think a big part of this is prayer because the conversation that I had with the friend that you're talking about, like he didn't start to see until he started to pray. I was like, I don't think that your mind is going to understand until the Lord shows you that you are so emotionally disconnected to your wife in a way that's really hurting her, bro. And so I think like you got to pray. Like, Lord, show me how to minister to my wife. show me the depth of how much my wife is hurting. Give me the patience. Give me the tenderness. Give me the kindness. Give me the wisdom to listen and not talk. Like you got to ask God for things. That's great. Because if you go, if you go, especially with these life horror situations in it,

on your own strength, with your own wisdom, you're going to mess up. Yeah. And it's not, he wasn't a bad guy. Yeah. He was just, he was just hurt. hurting her because he was just like, bro, you got to take it to the Lord. Can I also add that miscarriages are traumatic? Yes. You know, our body goes through different things, whether you have to go to the hospital to get what's called a DNC or if you miscarry at home or another place.

Like, it is a traumatic experience. And so loving your wife well is understanding that her body is went through some trauma, you know, and I need to care for her. Yeah. I wanted to read the scripture because you talked about God allowing things according to his will. And I know sometimes in the church we can have this harmful theology that says if something didn't happen to you is because of your faith. You're not believing. You're not tearing it enough. And I think it's harmful theology in a lot of ways. And first, first John five, starting at the 14 verse, it says, and this is and this is the confidence that we. have towards him that if we act anything according to his will he hears us he hears us and i think people don't like they they they they have the faith part but they often leave out the according to his will he hears us because i think the truth is that that god knew like jacky has this amazing sermon about um hannah who struggled with

would, you know, not being able to get pregnant. And it said that the Lord closed her wound, right? And so God knew your situation. And so you not getting pregnant wasn't because you didn't have enough faith. It's because God was trying to produce something in you. And if he would have gave you a baby back then, like his perfect will in your life probably wouldn't be fulfilled in that time. And that's what people don't realize.

I think sometimes he put such a high emphasis on faith that we don't see that we're actually He's serving a sovereign God who knows all things. And more than anything, he's trying to produce fruit in you. Yes. And so I guess my question with that is... That was a servant. That was good. I'm like, okay.

Yeah, I guess my question is, what did God produce in you? Like, what kind of fruit did he produce in you as you were waiting? Yeah. That's great. I think, well, some of the fruit he produced in me was joy. like joy in and not in a thing that he gives me. I had to learn how to walk in the joy of the Lord

even though this thing wasn't happening for me. Wow. That was something that it took time to really experience. I also, he produced, there was a, a time where I realized that I had made this thing that I desired that I was praying for an idol in my life. And I think a lot of us do that, whether it's, you know, we're praying for a husband, you know, or anything else. And so I had made, and I didn't realize it at the time, but I had made

that an idol in my life. Like the desire consumed me instead of the desire for God in his will, perfect will. And so, yeah, that's some of what was produced. That's amazing. While y'all were talking, I just kept thinking about Abraham and how, you know, the Lord promises Abraham and Sarah, Sarai, whichever I want to go with, a child. And it's just years and just years and just years that go by. But then, you know, they got the baby.

They have Isaac, all the stuff. And the God is like, yeah, I want you to sacrifice. the baby. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, they've been waiting for decades for the son. And now you want him to give the son up. Wow. And then, you know, Abraham was like, bed, okay.

So it gets the wood, goes to the mountain and all the stuff, then sacrifice the boy. Then the Lord's like, ah, ah, you ain't got to do it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Because I know that you love me. Yeah. And I remember when I was studying that text, I'm like, Lord, you know everything.

Yeah. Like, you already knew he loved you. but in that test it was words to affirm Abraham's love for him to know it. Yeah. And so test, that's what they do, is they reveal the contents of your heart that you may not even see.

And so at the same time that the Lord was producing things in you, I think the Lord was also confirming that you're his. Yes. Like, no, she loves me. She's struggling. She got the stuff. But she's staying because you got a lot of people. people that go through hard stuff and they don't stay put.

Right. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. So to me, that's encouraging to be like, oh, you don't, you kept me. Yeah. And I love you because you love me first. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

You have chapters in your book that are written in like these short words that also can produce a lot of thought, you know? And so chapter one, baron, chapter two, lament, chapter three, exile. I think off topic, it'd be like, ooh, shit. you're going to take me there. It's giving wilderness. I want to talk about lament. Okay.

Because I do think that as Christians, and I think even in, I don't think it's specific to a demographic, but I even think sometimes in black church spaces, we have a lot of places for lament. And yet victory, joy, press forward, you know, where it can feel like you're forced out of grief prematurely, or you're walking an unbelief because you shouldn't be sad that long. Yeah. And so I guess talk to us about what you want us to know about lament. Lament is a gift that the Lord has, he wrote a, it's a whole book called lamentations, you know, and that book is in there for a reason is to show us that the power of lament.

And lament is simply sorrow with hope. Wow. And I believe that there is space for that. It's healing, you know, to take time to process, to grieve. Sometimes you got to grieve, you got to cry it out. And you can't rush through that. The Lord does things in that. That's good.

And we find comfort in that. And in our limit, in our grief, we will come to that, what I call the call to mind moment. But we can't rush people. We can't rush people to get to that call to my moment. But that call to my moment happens in Lamentations, 320, I believe. where the writer calls to mind. He talks about before that, he talks about how he was depressed

and all of these horrible things, but then he calls to mind. You know, and then he says, therefore I have hope. And he begins to call to mine. I don't have the scripture up, but he calls to mind. You want me to read it?

Yes. Okay. But this I call to mind, and therefore I have hope, the steadfast love of the Lord, never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning, great is your faithfulness. The Lord is my portion, says my soul, therefore I will hope in him. And that's biblical lament. That is being at a place where I can grieve, I can have sorrow, but yet I'm able to call to mine

his staff as love in the midst of it. Can I ask maybe both of y'all a question? I love this conversation right here. You know, I am so melancholy. I love talking about sad sorrow. I'm melancholy too. This is a question. This is a question I'm going to throw to y'all. And this is a genuine question.

And I think a lot of my questions be formed because I grew up in church. So, you know what I'm saying? And so, like, I've seen people kind of, I love how you phrase that lament is sadness with hope. What makes people believe? that there's a lack of hope when there is sadness. You mean like people on the outside looking at? Yeah, like what makes a person not see the hope? Mm-hmm.

When there's sadness. And then because I've literally seen people in the church shame people. Like, God is a healer. What are you talking about? It's like no. But I think what you're essentially saying is, you know, grief is a gift. In the same way that God gives us the ability to have joy, he also gives us the ability to grief.

I wrote a poem in 2019 called Who Gives a Black Man Permission to Feel? And one of the lines I said, when grief comes out, it makes room for life to come in. And so grief has to come out. And so like if God did not give us the grieving process, like even when Lazarus died, he allowed them to grieve. Yeah. Right? Because that's a gift too. And so what makes people not recognize that as a gift and not see the hope?

I wonder what that is. What is underneath that? I think people are just uncomfortable seeing other people grieve and other people sad. I think there may be something in us that is uncomfortable with watching someone cry, watching someone in pain. And I think some people struggle with it. There could be an awkwardness that they feel with it, so they want to hurry up and get you over to the other side. Instead of sitting.

Exactly. Yeah. Instead of knowing how to sit with grief themselves and sit with someone else who is grieving without rushing to offer them a solution. You know, there's times that, and this, I'm so grateful for my husband because even as I walked through those grievous moments of infertility, he was able to just sit with me and just hold me while I grieve. instead of rushing to the next thing,

rushing to the solution, rushing me to joy. Yeah. You know, I knew that joy would come, you know, and it just didn't always come the next morning. Sometimes it came a few mornings after that. Yeah, that's good. Because if you were to rush you out of it,

it probably wouldn't have been good for you. You needed that. I needed that release. You needed that gift of grief. Yeah. I think she's right. I think people are uncomfortable. I think it's awkwardness.

I think on one level there's some selfishness because weeping with those who weep requires empathy, which requires humility, to not consider yourself, but to actually show up for this other person in the way that they need it, right? And so I think that's one. I also think sometimes it's fear.

Sometimes it's, I'm afraid of where this grief could take you. And so let me give the advice, let me give the instruction, let me get you on into victory, not because I'm trying to rush you, but because I'm afraid for you. Especially, you know, people who are pastoral or people who love you a lot. I think as parents, I think when our children get a certain age, we're going to deal with that. Whereas like, we want to fix it because I don't want you to fall. I don't want you to, I don't want you to get into some addictions. I don't want you to get into some bad habits.

So let me do all that. So I think it can be selfishness, but I think it can be fear. For lack of trust, yeah. Yeah. Because you got to, I think to show up well with people, there's a level of trust in God. You got to have. You know what I'm saying? Like I've had times when I'm on the phone with somebody and they are expressing some really hard stuff. And in that moment, I can lean into all the Bible I know.

Or I can pray and say, God, what do you want me to do? Yeah. You want me to be quiet? You want me to give advice? I've had times where God is like, just crack a joke. Yeah. I'm like, okay, I'll just be funny. Yeah.

But that takes me trusting him in how to love my neighbor. Yeah. And so I think that's just important. That's good. That's good. That's real good. You talk about exile. Yeah.

I am very curious on what you mean by that. It's very different. I struggled with the title. I struggled with naming that chapter, exile at first, because, you know, there's many different exiles, you know, throughout scripture. And we as Christians, we also are to, we're exiles. We're sojourners, right? But I talked about how when you're walking in unanswered prayer, the church or people around you can unknowingly exile you.

Meaning there are times, for example, when let's say someone gets married, right? And there's all of a sudden this new community that that person gets. But then the single friend is exiled, essentially, like on the outskirts. And so that chapter is really an encouragement to seeing maybe the different seasons of life other people may be in and bringing them in and understanding that as a church, as other believers, no one should feel exiled, right? That we have a responsibility to bring others in and lovingly still walk. with them. That's good. Because I started really processing me having a child at this ripe age.

There were a lot of friends that had their children in their 20s and things like that. And I remember I wouldn't get invited to the parties, the birthday parties, the mom's day out, all that. They just assumed I wasn't, you know, interested in it. And I remember feeling like, man, like, where's my community? Like I lost my community with that instead of just saying, just extending that invitation, still bringing me in if I wanted to be brought in. But walking with me, even though I'm in this messy middle still praying and waiting and trusting the Lord for him to do something in my own life.

I'm not going to ask you, did you? I'm going to broaden it because one thing I have heard is when people are dealing. with infertility, for example, it could be with singleness, it could be with, I am praying for my husband to get a better job, and the friend,

husband does get a better job, and they're afraid to tell the friend who's actually been praying for that for a long time. I guess, I don't even know how to frame it, the question, but like, how do we navigate knowing that your friend is praying for something for a long time

and dealing with the fear of how to even like when you get the thing that they're praying for and you don't even know how to bring that to them because that can communicate some exile to you because it's like no we're friends I love you and that would happen all the time to me that's a thing I actually yeah it is I'm so I'm let you up but I don't think I've ever told you that but you know the person

but I was so afraid to tell a particular friend that I was about to propose to you yeah because he was waiting for marriage and he wanted to marry his friend a friend or whatever and like I was like I don't know how to not do this and not feel like I'm rubbing it in your face. Yes. But then it creates this breach in the relationship where it's like... It's this distance now.

It's a sense where I love you. Tell me. You know what I'm saying? Like it's cool. Yeah. I just want to talk about that. I'm so glad because I talk about how we have to push past our own awkwardness or feelings of, you know, this feels awkward for the.

sake of loving our friends well, for the sake of loving others well. And I believe the best way, I used to just want people to be honest with me, you know. And if I have some complicated feelings, allow me to wrestle with that and understand, you know, that the feelings may be complicated. I think when people were transparent and honest with me, I could still find a way to be happy and joyful for what God did for that person while still saying, okay, Lord, I'm still waiting, you know, and I think it's awkward, but it can feel awkward, but both things can be true. And to just understand that that's how life is sometimes. We kind of walk between like a dichotomy of two emotions and feelings.

And so just being honest, I think, with your friends. Yeah. And I also, too, think that a lot of it kind of falls and hinges on both parties hoping the best in one another. Yes. Because I think essentially what I do, I have to do is I have to hope the best that he will be happy for me. Yeah.

Like my friend, I had to hope the best that he would just be happy for me. And if they're not, we're just going to work through it. We work through it. And he got to hope the best that I'm not telling him this information to rub it in his face. Right. But he has a hope of the best that I'm just telling the information, you know, because I'm happy. You know what I'm happy?

You know what I'm saying? And so like I think you got to hope the best and not live in fear. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like sometimes when it comes to praying consistently, mm-hmm. There's a, there's like a,

there's a season where you are really hopeful. Yeah. And full of like, faith. Yeah. It's just like, yeah, God, like, I want better, give me bad a. And then I talk about this in the sermon I did on Hannah and First Samuel. It says that she, one of the reasons we know she struggled with infertility for a long time is because it says that year after year they would go to Shiloh and sacrifice.

And that's when Panetta would provoke her in light of her barrenness. And so it's year after year after year. And it's like, it's one thing to wait a year. It's another thing to wait two years. There's another way thing to work. And by like, it can start to be like, okay now, I'm knocking a lot. If I knock on your door, I don't like if you don't answer my call after three rings. So it's talking to you.

So the fact that's why I want to get you an Apple Watch. I'm like, I don't understand why you don't see me calling. She'd be so mad at me about, like, jeez, I didn't see it. I literally didn't see the- What if I was dying? You know when you go to the doctor and they say emergency contact, you're not on it. You're not on it. Not going to pick up.

Bay, that's not. First of all, you don't be picking up with people. People for you, I do You do Anyway, I'm sorry We need marriage counsel At what point in your story Did you start to realize

I may not actually have faith in you anymore Because of how long I've been asking And it feels like you're not responding That's a real question, wow Wow At what point in my story Probably the second miscarriage and after that I was just like, I really struggled with that.

And I needed to be encouraged. And I'm grateful for the church that encouraged me, other believers, community, because there are times that we will experience where our dreams feel so shattered that we need the encouragement of others to speak into us and to hear us and to pray for us and to walk with us. And I think by that point it had been over, it had been 10 years that... That's a long time. Yeah, it is.

And we got to paint the picture because y'all keep looking on the face and thinking she's about 33. By the time this airs, I'll probably be 44. We praise the Lord. Because women, in this subject, women have a different set of battles they got to fight. Because they're like, all right, my body, my ovaries, my fallopian tubes. Yes. You have designed our bodies in such a way where they start to not work according to, you know. So you're wrestling with that too.

So 10 years. is a absolute test. 10 years is an absolute test. I was turning 40. I had, and I shared that I went through the IVF as an option. I didn't have a lot of eggs. I hardly know nothing. I got two embryos out of that and miscarried the first.

So here I was like this one embryo is here. After this, we don't. And then what happened? Then what? You know, if I miscarry this, then God, I have to be okay with knowing that you love me and that this is your will. And that was something that I had to wrestle with and work through. Like, if this does not happen, can I still trust you?

And can I still trust that you are good even in this? And that was hard. You know, so it took wrestling. It took honesty with God. It took going through lament and grief, but, you know, and crying it out and saying, you know, God, like, I don't understand this, but I hope in you. I love you. And it took time. Wow.

I want to read something and then I want to talk about your baby. It's Exodus 17. Yes. Exodus 17, I'm a read it. Because one thing you said I think is really key and really important is that when we are struggling with faith, whether that's because of unanswered prayers or whatever, we need people. Yeah. We just need people. It says Exodus 17, verse 10, so Joshua did as Moses told him and fought with Amalek while Moses Aaron and heard. went up to the top of the hill. Whenever Moses held up his hand, Israel prevailed. And whenever he lowered

his hand, Amalek prevailed. But Moses' hands grew weary. So they took a stone and put it under him. And he sat on it while Aaron and her held up his hands one on one side and the other on the other side. So his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. And Joshua overwhelmed Amalek and his people with the sword. I just want to point out two things. One, I just noticed a week ago reading this text, we always talk about Aaron and her holding up Moses's hands so that Israel can win this battle.

But what I didn't notice is that before they held up his hand, they put him on top of a rock. And to me, I'm like, oh, when we come and support people in community, I can't just hold up your hands. I just can't make sure that you all good. I also got to

put the rock up under you. And so there's something about the rock being up under him that stabilized him. so that as community supported him, he could also do what God told him to do. And I think that is how we help people get through difficult seasons of faith is, yes, I'm a, I'm a take you out to eat. Yes, I'm going to crack some jokes. Yes, I'm going to do whatever I need to do to make sure that you do not grow weary and well-doing. But I also need to do due diligence of making sure you're sitting on that rock.

Yes. Because it was the rock that helped you sustain. Yes. It's the rock that helps you have stamina. It's the rock that helped you endure so that you can actually love. God as you wait. Amen. Yes.

That's good. That encouraged me. That's it. That's the word. That's it. You preach the whole sermon right there. Tell us about when the dream you had came true. So that final little embryo, I got the courage to say, all right, let's try.

And she was born August 15th, 2023. Her name is Justice Joy. She is a baby, baby. You got a baby. Yes, I am running around with the two-year-old, y'all. But no, it's a lot of joy. She literally is her name. Like I could see, like, ooh, there's some justice there.

And that joy that she brings. We call her just joy for short. And I talk about her in my epilogue because I want to, I want people to know, like, even though my subtitle is, how unanswered prayers can deepen your intimacy with God. We know that God does. He does answer prayers. But with that, there's things that come with that.

Now that the answered prayer is here, there were things that I needed to understand. And I remember sitting holding her when she was cluster feeding at like three in the morning, tired and crying and all the things. And I'm like, okay, this is what I wanted. This is what I asked for? Like, I hadn't had good late sleep for 42 years of my life. And now, you know, I'm having sleepless nights. And it just made me think of the stewardship that comes with the answered prayers that God gives us.

There's stewardship. There's responsibility. There's also a temptation to not be satisfied. or to, there's temptation even to idolize the answered prayer. You know, and so that's something that we have to look at and wrestle with and understand that when God gives you and says that yes for whatever it is, that there's some other things that need to take place. We still have to be rooted in him.

Yeah. This is kind of a two-part question. I would imagine that it's some people watching who might be going to the same thing that you're going through and they might have this question. Like, why should my expectation be that God is going to do this thing for me if he did it for you? Like if he allowed you to get pregnant, why should my expectation be the same? What would you say to that girl? But also for the one who's still struggling, just in general, who might not have that thought. But what would you? you say to the woman who still, you know, because your story's beautiful, you know, like God, you know, ended up giving you your beautiful baby and all the things. But there's so many people, so many girls that are still waiting. Yeah. What would you say? What would your message? I don't know a lot of that they can find it in the book, but we want to know on podcast. For sure. Well, I would say for those that are still waiting first, that every person, every person that God has created has a different path, has a different story. And I say this, like, your story may not necessarily be my story, but there are still things

that I am waiting for. You know, I am walking through my mother has stage four cancer, you know, and we are praying and trusting and going before the Lord to heal her body, right? And so there's always going to be, I think all of us have to understand that our journey is our journey, our path is our path. You know, I share my story to encourage hope, but what I want you to have hope in is not in my story, not in my testimony, but in God and the fact that we know that he can, you know. And so you want to hope in the God who can do and be and make happen the perfect will for your life. And because it's for your life, it is something that I pray that that person will have joy in. I really hope people understand the significance of what you just said because it was really deep.

It was, no, it was super deep because I think a lot of times we lose sight on what God want us to focus on. Yeah. God doesn't merely want us to focus on answering every prayer we have. Right. But he wants us to focus on, do you believe I am the God that can do all things? Yes. Like the God that can.

I am that I am. I can do it. Yes. And if I don't do something in your life, it's for your good. Right. But can you still believe I can do it? Yeah. Even if I don't.

Yeah. That's really powerful. Yeah. Yeah, super powerful. I feel like there's so many scriptures coming to my mind. And I think it's because this has been a constant for me in many ways, praying for stuff and feeling like, you heard me, but you're just not responding. And it's not that he's not responding. That's a part of the lie.

He is, in fact, responding. he just may not be responding in the way that I want or in the way that I prefer. And because he's wise, he's giving me what I actually need. But not only that, the Bible talks about how the Holy Spirit also intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words when we don't know what to pray or how to pray. And so I think there's also a sense that what you're praying, the Holy Spirit is reinterpreting that thing and God is responding to that prayer. You know what I'm saying?

And so it could be, yeah, you pray for this door to open in business. And the Lord is like, no, she don't, she don't actually need that father. What she needs is, you know, humility to understand that you're actually going to provide for her circumstances in another way. So like the Holy Spirit is also praying. Because we don't know ourselves. Yeah. But think about, think of, think of, God knows us way more. We forget.

We're banking on our prayers too much. Yeah. We're thinking about our prayers too much. And that's important. but I'm saying even alongside your prayers is the spirit. And so how much hope do we actually have that the Lord is like, you literally don't even pray well enough to know how to pray. So I'm going to have the Holy Spirit pray too.

Yes. Yes. You know what I? Help us. We are receiving grace. We are receiving answers. We are receiving something like John Piper said, he said, God is always probably doing 10 million things.

You're aware of two of them. Mm. Mm. I don't know. But it's deep. Thinking about the Holy Ghost prayer, for me, it's just something. Yeah. Yeah, because I think even the scripture that I read earlier,

it talks about God answering prayers according to his will and he hears. And a lot of times when we tap into the Holy Spirit, like when we seek the Lord, how we're supposed to, how he wants us to in a particular season, we see that our prayers start to align with the Holy Spirit. Like wills change. Delight yourself. Yeah.

Like, like, yo, yo, like, wheels literally do change when you, when you, when you tap into God in a way that you, you know what I'm saying. What you finish. Yeah. You literally spoke what I was thinking, delighting yourself in the Lord. That scripture is often used like, oh, if I just delight myself in the Lord and serve him. He's going to give me every day. Yes. He's going to give me every desire.

But you just spoke to that. Yeah, yeah. You're a Bible teacher. I guess. You are. You're a Bible teacher. talk about the role of scripture as we deal with unanswered prayer because I don't want people to walk away from this thinking okay community bet oh yeah hope bet but like you're not working through

them texts yeah like let's talk about that oh you got to stay rooted and you got to study and the thing about it I share with transparency that there were moments in my journey where I wasn't studying as a Bible teacher, as I should have. Because of that time I said I was wrestling with the anger. And it was like, or I would read a devotional, I would read scripture, but it wasn't out of, it was out of routine instead of really sitting with the text and allowing the Holy Spirit to minister to me. And so when you're sitting with the text and allowing the whole,

Holy Spirit to minister to you as you study, healing comes in that. You know, grace comes in that. That gives you the power to endure and to really be able to walk out that time of that season, that wilderness, that valley that you are in. And so that's the role of scripture to be able to wash myself with the word, hear from God, be able to be able to be able to. encouraged and to allow the Holy Spirit to do the work in me through the studying of scripture. And so when you get off from that, that's when you find yourself in some things that you may not need to be in. Like you find yourself coping with the fact that your prayers aren't answered in unhealthy ways.

You may find yourself uncoping by mindless scrolling, you know, or alcohol or whatever it is, you know, whatever you are using to cope. And so my encouragement for anyone is, you know, to use the scriptures to cope, you know, and that's how we learn about God and we also see ourselves in that. Yeah, that's good. I just want to add to that, I think, of Jesus in Luke 4. you know, and how he's hungry. He's suffering. That's suffering. You ain't eaten for 40 days.

You're tired. You're in the wilderness. You ain't got no community. I don't know if he had a tarp. I have no idea. I need the chosen to go to that scene for us or something. But, you know, you're in the wilderness and Satan comes and it's like, hey, man, turn these stones to bread because the bread will make the pain stop.

But he's like, man shall not live by bread alone, but by everywhere that proceeds from the mouth of God. So even reminding ourselves that there are opportunities to turn stones into bread, but that won't sustain you. Yeah. That won't actually feed you. Yeah. That won't be the thing, you know. I'm encouraged just by this because one of my favorite passages is in 2nd Corinthians, one, where Paul talks about how he's been afflicted and in all his afflictions, he's been comforted. And the same comfort by which he was comforted, he comforts others. Yes. And it's like this book is that this book is you were afflicted and you were comforted and that same comfort has actually been written down into these pages and so I just appreciate you for one enduring it was the Holy Spirit but it

was also you leaning into him you know so I appreciate that I appreciate you writing the stuff and talking about the stuff I appreciate you loving the Bible because you could have just encouraged the saints and I had no Bible right I was over there like she got a lot of Bible in this Bible I see something about Ebenezer I said okay Raising Ebenezer So just thank you I just appreciate you

Thank you I would show people the book Oh yeah So yes Even Jennifer texts me When she was looking at the cover Because they got you a few covers girl Yeah

When dreams fall apart How unanswered prayers Can deep your intimacy with God You can look in the show notes To get the book To follow Jennifer Her ministry All the stuff

And you will grow If you do So thank you, Jen. Thanks, Jen. Thank you. Thank you all for having me. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys,

with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.