With The Perrys - Is Jesus God?

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

Why does it matter that we fully understand the deity of Jesus? Because if we don’t, we run the risk of worshiping the wrong God. Preston and Jackie walk through the apologetics of this important element of the Christian faith, examining scripture people often point to when questioning if Jesus is God.  Check out the Greek/English Interlinear New Testament here. Take our brief listener survey.  Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's the Saints and the Aids It's not the name of the show It's the saints and me ain't Not the name of the show It's the Saints and the Aides You know I snap It's the Saints and the Aides I'm in my 30s

A lot of snap Let me see If you grow on you should know I'm gonna stop Let me see One number four I don't know how to do it Dave Let me just see What was that?

Oh okay Do it again No I want to hear it You're such a kid. I don't hear it. I do. Oh.

Oh my gosh. This is all proper. You think you's smart. Anyway, so let's just jump right into it. Like, we ain't got to do all that whole weird intro stuff because I don't even have nothing to say other than my lips are dry. So some people, I think people, especially on YouTube, because it is interesting how we have people that listen to us on Spotify, iTunes,

that kind of some of them are like crossover into the YouTube but we have also a distinct audience on YouTube that don't listen to them. I was very fascinated when I found out they're like YouTube listeners and podcast listeners are two very distinct audience. They are. I have a theory. I think some of it is it really is your chosen form of media.

So I'm a podcast listener, right? Because I'm always in the car, dropping the kids off, going to meetings, all the things. And so I'm listening to the podcast. I don't have the time to watch a YouTube video. So you're trying to say people who watch YouTube, don't have no life and they have jobs? No, I think if I'm a...

That's why they're so mean in the comments sections because they just bored. No, I'm saying when I'm at home, I don't have the time, but if I am going to watch something, it won't be YouTube. It'll be a documentary. to be

I do be feeling like there's a lot of kids on YouTube your beard is ugly Preston FYI When are you going

to get a line up It's like whoa You have to be 12 I think YouTube is more critical Oh yeah But it's more critical Because people have more space

To share Yeah yeah On podcast Where they're gonna say it Yeah You know what I'm saying Like They just can

They just got to keep It to themselves Yeah they should be criticizing us On a bike LA fitness I think pressing line People encourage

just too. All I'm saying, I don't know how I got there. Oh, so also depending on the medium by which people listen, it might also determine what they know about us. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because you keep, you've been running into people who don't know

we're married, which is, because they were introduced to you through Bold TV. Yeah, yeah. And they're like, oh, you got a wife. That's so strange when it happens to me because it rarely happens because either people know me from my poetry, but if they know me from my poetry, they know you. We started off doing poetry together. And then, you know, I'm always in like, you know, white evangelical spaces when it's

like, you need to do ministry too, Preston. I actually, they think you're not doing nothing. Yeah. Yeah. That's the Christian community. We often feel like our community is the only community that exists. But, but, and then I meet people on the street and, you know, who are both TV fans. And those are just theology heads. And it's just like, man, you're, you. dope, bro. Are you married, bro? Like, man, your videos rock, man. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, my wife, she actually, she's a ministry too.

She does apologetics too? Yeah, she sort of kind of does apologetics too. It's more like in this sexuality field. Oh, that's amazing, man. What can I find our content at? Yeah, she has books. It's hilarious. It's so strange.

It's just when you tell me that you met people that don't know we're married, it's like, oh, that's the thing. But it's also been funny in the past when people like, this one girl was like, yes, somebody sent me your poem and then somebody sent me a Jackie poem and then like three weeks later, I found out that y'all was married. That's cute.

That's crazy. Last name, they must start with your siblings. Right. But the reason I say that is because it is possible that some of our watchers and some of our listeners don't know that you are an apologist. Yeah.

They don't know that you be going out in the streets and talking to people of other faiths, other systems of belief about Jesus. And so I just wanted to reintroduce everybody to Preston Perry the Apologist. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Can you stop clapping? Can you stop clapping?

Okay, you hear encore. Can you stop clapping? Thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks. You're not to receive it. No, it's not, you don't have to clap for that. It's like, what are you doing? It's kind of weird. Me and you got into a conversation at a coffee shop

and I put it on my Instagram. I started recording you because you just say really profound things in very simple and matter of fact, matter of fact ways to me in the most mundane spaces such as the coffee shop. And you were talking about how anytime you post something about the deity of Jesus, how you get responses from people who don't either

believe that or struggle with it? Can you talk more about just kind of the consensus that you've heard from people that follow you or whatever about what they think about the subject of Jesus being God? Yeah, so from early on in my Christian walk, I think it was very obvious

that God wanted me to like focus on Chris Howl that you liked to help people to understand how Jesus exists and to help people understand that Jesus is God because I think it's, a really big deal for us to understand how God has come to reveal himself through the person of Jesus Christ, right? But early on, I thought that the Lord really just wanted me to reach other faiths, you know, like Joseph's witnesses, Muslims, Mormons, Hebrew, Israelites, who all deny,

who all will say that Jesus existed, but would deny his deity. But in that as time, started to go on, I started to realize that, man, like, there's a lot of Christians who go to Orthodox Christian churches who don't really believe that Jesus is God or who really don't understand him being God. And it started to be, you know, evident to me when I started to post videos of me engaging with Jehovah's witnesses. And it was like, no, I present. I go to such and such Baptist church and Jesus is the son of God. And it's like, huh. And so I began to pray about it. And it has started to be a bigger burden on me than ever to really just help Christians to see no Jesus actually came to reveal himself, not as a good teacher, not as a prophet, mere prophet. But, no, he's God in the flesh.

Yeah. And so, yeah. The question is, why does it matter? So, for example, isn't it sufficient that someone just recognizes, oh, he is God's son, he came to the earth to die and he died for sin, he rose from the dead, and all who believe in him have eternal life? Is that a sufficient belief for someone to have or must they also believe that he is God? Well, I do think I'm not going to speak authoritative in a way and saying that like God cannot do something in a person's heart if they don't fully grasp how he exists.

I think that God, I think it's possible for God to do a work and then I think that if he has done a work, he will finish a work. And so I think that he will eventually reveal to you how he exists, right? I've seen people like that who've come to faith and don't really understand who Jesus is. And then after a while it's like, you know, the Holy Spirit reveals him. And this man is God.

Can I say something real quick to that point? I was listening to a podcast the other day that was talking about just that kind of dynamic of being a new believer and being ignorant of some doctrines but having a sincere faith. And how they were describing how in the early church they would do catechisms, where they would teach through fundamental, you know, doctrines of the Christian faith

and that it is one thing to say, I don't, I didn't know that, and I want to continue to learn that. And it's another thing to say, I don't believe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So is, and he said, like, ignorance is not heresy. Denial is. Yes. For somebody to reveal it and say, no, this is what the words says, da, da, da, you're like, you know, I don't believe it. But that's kind of what I'm...

That's another thing. That's kind of where I was going next, you know, because I think... That if we deny or if we don't grasp with truth, I think we run the risk of essentially worshiping the wrong God. I think that's right. What Jesus, Jesus being God lets us know something very, very important. It lets us know that Jesus is authoritative. He's the ultimate authority.

And so a lot of times when these other religions comes and, you know, when a young black boy got hurt by the church and then he'd go outside and walk down the street and run into a Hebrew Israelite and then the Hebrew Israel come to him and say, man, you are the lost child of Israel, yada, yada, yada, yada. And Jesus isn't actually God. It's like, okay, now I'm able to look at you guys as truth

because I deny how Jesus exists from the junk. But if Jesus is the authoritative figure here, we know that his word is authority, right? And so I think Jesus, I think the thing about Jesus, Jesus came and he brought everybody to decision, not because She was merely sent by God because he was God.

Does Jesus, I'm going to just ask a bunch of questions. Does Jesus, I do this to you all the time, actually. Yeah, yeah, you do. Does it strengthen your faith? No. It don't. It's just good conversation. Wow.

It's not edifying at all for me to ask you questions that you could be asked on the street. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. I didn't understand. Forget it. I didn't understand the question. I'll never ask the question again.

Curious George is gone. You loser. Does it Does Jesus have to be God to be authoritative? Because Moses was authoritative. Not in the same way. Paul was authoritative. He wrote the scriptures.

What makes him different? Well, Jesus, well, God is the ultimate authority, right? And so Moses didn't have the ability to forgive sins. Right? Jesus did. Right? And so Moses couldn't, do half of the things that Jesus could, right?

He couldn't say things that God said. He couldn't say before Abraham was, I am, right? And so Jesus is literally speaking to his eternal nature, right? He's not limited. Moses was limited. And so when Jesus says things like before Abraham was, I am, and they was like, what, you're not even 50 years old. We have to understand that he wasn't merely claiming to be old.

When we look up in the Greek, I am, it literally means ego am. It means forever ago. Huh? Ego A me. Uh-huh. Ego A-Me. It literally means I existed forever ago. Ego A-Me.

Ego-A-me. Right? I existed into eternity's past, right? I have no beginning. What chapter is that? John 17, I think. It's John 8. Oh, John 8.

And so Jesus is, he's not merely claiming to have a, authority given to him by God, he's literally claiming to be God. Right. And so I think that's, I think that's the difference. And so I would imagine that what also makes Jesus distinguished from the likes of a Moses or a Paul is that they both were vessels in the sense that they received what they were able to give. Yeah. Versus Jesus himself is the source of life power. Death, resurrection, not death, but stuff like that.

Yeah, but also, too, I think the main thing is if we don't recognize Jesus as God, we don't see him as one to be worshipped, right? You know, when Jesus rose from the dead and he appeared to the Pharisees, but to the disciples, one of the disciples, Thomas wasn't there. And, you know, when he came back and appeared to him the second time, and he, you know, appeared to, quote unquote, doubting Thomas. He walked up to Thomas and showed Thomas, you know, the holes in his hands and the holes in his feet. And it says that Thomas fell down and worshipped him as God.

And Jesus says, you believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who have not seen and still believe. And so Jesus is saying, man, you worship me because you've seen. But Jesus is desiring for those who have not seen the nails in his hands or the holes in his feet to still read his word and to worship him as such, right? And so if you do not recognize Jesus as God, you essentially do not worship the right God, right? If you don't understand all the ways in which God has come to reveal themselves to the world, you run the risk of putting your faith in a God that cannot save you.

And so I think that's the reason why, you know, knowing that Jesus is God is important. It's really important, you know. So let's prove it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's back this up with facts. Give me one scripture. We'll go through a few,

but what is one of the simpler texts that we could walk through that proves the deity of Jesus? Well, I think one scripture that a lot of religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and even some Hebrew Israelites go to as Philippians 2, verse 5, where it talks about the great humility of Jesus. And I think this text has been misinterpreted a lot by other religions and not fully interpreted

by, quote unquote, like Bible-believing Christians. Because is it the, would they say he was not, he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, emptied himself? Is that the pushback? The emptying himself part is one, but also, too, we look at that word equality and it, let's just go, let's go to it, right? Philippians 2, verse 5, says this. It says, have this mind amongst yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, who though being in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be Christ.

grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of man, and being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death of the cross. Therefore, God is highly exalted him and bestowed upon him the name that is above every name. Every name. That under the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow in heaven on earth and under earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is the glory to God, the Father. It's Lord to the Lord of God. Now, let's look at the, let's look at five, right?

it says have this mind amongst yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus right and so it's saying the same mind that Jesus had you have right right what mind that Jesus has it says who though being in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped but empty themselves right and so I think some people may look at this and say see even Jesus here didn't then count equality with a father a thing to be grasped as to say almost almost trying to say that Jesus knew his place. Right? But what is this passage pointing to?

This passage is pointing to great humility. Humility is not merely knowing your place. Humility is recognizing you have a right to something but being able to let it go to serve someone else. Right? If I did not count equality with God a thing to be grass, it's not humility. It's common sense because I never had equality to begin with.

Right. And so Jesus not counting equality. with God of things to be grass is humble because he did have equality with the father right and so this is the reason why it's great humility and so jesus is so the to the writer here saying let this mind being being you which was also in christ jesus who had something who had privileges but let these privileges to go to serve the same people he created and so i think when you when you when you talk to other religions like the hebrew Israelites or even the jehovah's witnesses is they almost look at it as I think they fundamentally misunderstand humility.

They don't understand what humility is. Because if you did, you would say, man, if the writer said, he didn't count equality with God a thing to be grasped, which means he had to let it go. Which means he had it. Yeah. He had it, but he didn't count it the thing to be grasped. He let it go.

Why did he let it go? That's a great sermon text. He had it. He had it. He had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? But look, look what it says.

It says, although being in the form of God, did not count equality with God. of things to be grasped. But, right? How did he let it go? By emptying himself by taking all the form of a servant, right?

And being born in the likeness of men and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedience to the point of death. And so this is the reason why he how he let it go. He let it go because he was eternally God, but he became a man.

And so when he became a man, it does not mean that he, stopped being God, but he did become a man. So he was 100% man, 100% God. And so in his human nature, he was limited. This is the reason why we see scriptures in other scriptures, like, how did Jesus not know the time that the father, that he would return or, you know, questions like this, you know, because he was limited in his human nature.

This is the reason why it was great humility because the God who created us condescending and became like us while still remaining God. Right. And so he was limited in his human nature, right? I'll look at it like this, right? You are an amazing poet, right? Not anymore, but thank you. Well, you were an amazing poet. And because you were a world-known poet, you had privileges that some poets didn't have, right? You had special privileges. And so if you go to a big poetry event and you walk into a room, people are going to say, oh, Jackie O' Perry's here. We're going to give her the big green room. We're going to give her all the juices. We're going to give her all the fruit snacks or whatever, right? You have privileges because of what you've accomplished, right? And there might be poets there who don't have the privileges you have

because they're just starting out, right? If you let go of some of these privileges, right? And give these privileges away to poets that are, that don't have the same privileges as you. You don't stop being Jackie Hill Perry. Yeah. And so when Jesus let go of his privileges, he didn't stop being God. Yeah, yeah.

He didn't stop being God. Uh-huh. Right? he still, and so a lot of, this is another thing, a lot of people say, well, how did God stop being God if he let go of his divine nature? No, he didn't let go of his divine

nature. He let go of his privileges as God. Where do they get the assumption that he let go of his divine nature? Because it says that he emptied himself and became a man. And so I think that some people don't grasp the fact that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

They think if he became man, He wasn't God anymore. Like his divinity was partial. Yeah. And so when it says he let it go, it's important to know that he did not let go of his divinity. He let go of some of his rights as God in order to serve the same people he created. That's crazy. This is the reason why it's great humility, right?

And so in the same way, if we let go of some of our privileges, we don't stop being who we are. You're still Jackie O' Perry, right? but you're letting go of your privileges to serve the same, you know, to serve people who are beneath you in a sense, right? And then it says by being found in a form of a servant by being born in the likeness of man in a human form, he humbled himself

by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death of the cross. This is the thing that I think points to Jesus being God more than anything, right? No, like if we are created, were already held subject to death, meaning no one can become obedient to death because every single person

or every single being that is created is already held subject to death. The only one who had to become obedient to death is the one who never knew death, and that was Jesus. Yikes. Right? And so Jesus had to humble himself to the point of death because he was always superior

over death for all of eternity. Yeah, yeah. And so this is what really made Jesus' humility amazing. Think about it for all of eternity. Death never knew you. Like, death never had any hold

over you and you became subject to the thing that you've always been superior for all of eternity. Right? Because you are not a creative being. Right? And so some people may say, well, angels, right? They will always live.

But they can die. Yeah, the final judgment. Right? Yeah, we see this with Satan, right? who was originally an angel. He going to die one day, right? Because death means, you know, separation from God. He still is an angel.

He still is an angel. He still is an angel, right? And so, yeah, I just think that understanding Jesus' great humility here points us to how he is God. And I've seen this past to use over and over and over again by other religions of Jesus,

knowing his humility, and it's almost used to put Christus in his place. It's saying that Jesus knew his place, you should know Jesus' place as well. And it's like, no, that's not what humility is. That's interesting. Humility is not knowing your place. Humility is knowing that you have rights to something,

but being able to let it go to serve others. That's excellent. Yeah. Now, I would be intrigued to talk about John 1. Because... In the beginning? Yeah, like, I don't be venturing in the whole other religion sphere. I just be, you know, I've been dealing with

demon worship and music and stuff like that lately. And, you know, sexuality, gay people. That's where I be at. So when I come across texts that feel obviously affirming of the deity of Christ, you always have to say, you have to like help me understand how it's understood, right? So like, for example, John 1.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him. And without him was not anything made that was made. Then it goes on to verse 14. And the word became flesh. And dwelt among us.

And we have seen his glory, glory as of the only son from the father full of grace and truth. To me, that's such a... Clear. Yeah. It's like, yeah. In the beginning was a word. And the word was with God and the word was God. And the word became flesh.

Who became flesh. Jesus or Jesus is God. Yeah. How was that understood in these different faiths? And how do we, yeah, how do we affirm what John is trying to tell us? I love this passage because all the other three gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called the synoptic gospels because they're very similar in the point that they're trying to get across.

They're basically explaining Jesus as this good, either moral teacher, prophet, this good man. Right. John is distinct in how he talks about Jesus. because he, from the onset, he wants you to understand one thing, which is the deity of Jesus. In the beginning, was the word,

and the word was God, and the word was God. Now, everybody, well, every religion that will deny that Jesus is God, they will use his passage to interpret what they want to interpret, right? So the, you know, the Hebrew Israelites, what some Hebrew Israelite camps would say, well, in the beginning,

means that when Jesus was created, right? It speaks to his creation, right? He speaks to Genesis 1-1. It is, yeah, but that's what I'll point them back to Genesis 1-1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And so one thing I always tell them, no, this beginning is not speaking to God's creation because if God created this world to fit within a time frame,

he created the earth. and then in the beginning is when he established time for the earth to fit within a time frame. Before he created matter and the earth and all of the things that he created, there was no need for time, right? Because God was eternal. He didn't need time to exist.

And so when he created this earth in the beginning, he had to establish time as well for the earth to fit within the time frame. And so if Jesus was there in the beginning, if he was there in the beginning, that means he existed before the beginning. Mm-hmm. Right?

And so... Teach this text, sir. And so when it says, and so what John is doing, John is using the same language in Genesis. He says, remember in the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth? Right?

Remember in the beginning? In the beginning was also Jesus, right? In the beginning was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God. He was in the beginning with God. Through him, all things were made. And without him, nothing was made that was made.

What about verse three? Right. Because to me, that's... So verse three is... Yeah, verse three. Verse three is, you know, it's basically saying that Jesus made all things. I'll read it. Through him.

All things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made. Now, now, now. Now the Hebrew Israelites will tell you that, like I say, in the beginning, it's when God was, Jesus was created. That's a heresy. But I think the people who, the religion that has made most sense of this is Jehovah's Witness. because in order for you to make this text mean that Jesus is not God, you have to change the text.

You literally have to change it. And so if you know anything about the Jehovah's Witnesses, they have, I don't even want to call it a Bible, because it isn't a Bible. It's called the New World Translation. And it was published in 1950. And so it's not even, you know, 100 years old yet. It's my mom age.

Right. And it says, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God. and the word was a god. And then it goes through him all other things were created. Right. And so it doesn't say that Jesus created all things. It said he's created

all other things. And it says that he's a god and not the God. So what's interesting about that is that to make that in type, to write that kind of text means you have abandoned the original language.

Yes. So I want you to zoom in here, Kim. You see that? So this is a really good book I think y'all should have. It's the new Greek slash interlinear New Testament. So it has English and Greek. And so I'll read it in, I'll read the English as translate into Greek. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word. This one was in beginning with God.

All things through him came to be and without him came to be not even one thing. Not even one thing. And so, and so if, if, like, let's not talk about Jehovah's Witnesses. Let's talk about, you know, people who just don't believe that Jesus is God. This will mean that Jesus created himself. Yeah. It literally means if you don't believe that Jesus is God, you literally believe that Jesus created himself. Because this has not one thing came into being.

And so most people believe that Jesus being God, he was the first and greatest creation. of the Father. That's just not true. We see in Hebrews, Hebrews 1, verse 10, it says the Father, the Father says that Jesus created the heavens and the earth

by himself. It was the work of his hands. And so all things came into being through Jesus. And so it's consistently pointing to the fact that Jesus is God. Now, how do you deal with I don't think that's

And John, Garden of Gassimity. When Jesus is praying, people will say, so you're trying to tell me that Jesus prayed to himself? Yeah. What is the response? Well, no. Well, I think the Bible, and I think, I know the Bible talks about one God who exists in three

co-equal persons, right? The Bible in the beginning, it says, in the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth, and it says, let us make man in our own image. And so even there, the father was not, speaking to himself. He was speaking to other persons in the Trinity. And so we see that God is one God who exists in three co-equal persons. And so, no, Jesus is not praying to his divine side. And Jesus, like we talked about modalism on the podcast before. This is not this thing called modalism.

Well, you know, Jesus is the father. And then he stops being the father and he acts as the son. And then he stops seeing the son and acts as the Holy Spirit. No, in Genesis, we see one God created the earth, but it is expressed through three co-equal persons. The father initiates, the son creates, the spirit hovers over the face of the deep, solidifying all that God has made. And so in the Garden of Gitsemite, we see the same thing. We see, no, an actual son praying to his father who is also eternally God. And so, you know, the father is not the son, the son is not the Holy Spirit and vice versa. And so we see, and I think over and over it's very hard to grasp the fact that God doesn't exist like us.

right, who God is. And the best way I can explain it, because I think it's hard to talk about the deity of Jesus and not talked about the trium God of Scripture. Yeah. Right? Because Jesus is essentially who came to reveal the trium God of Scripture, right? So, you know, one thing that I like to explain to people

when I'm talking to other religions or even trying to explain this to Christians is we all exist in a what and a who, right? what I am is a human being. And so if I die, right, somebody comes to the scene, the Amber Lambs comes to the scene to say, they're going to identify me in my what, before they look at my wallet

and open my wallet and say who I am. What am I? They're going to say what I am. This is not a dog that's dead. This is not a rabbit that's dead. They're going to identify the what. Right? What I am in essence is a human, right?

And then they're going to identify. They're going to identify the, who they're going to say this this human person is Preston Perry he lives X, Y, Z, right? And so what God is in nature is God. He is one God, but how he exists in three co-equal persons. And so I think understanding the nature of God is first grappling with the fact that God doesn't exist like us. He exists distinct from us, right? And so I think we have to understand that, right? And so when we see Jesus praying to his father, we should

not confuse this thing that Jesus is praying to himself. Or Jesus is praying, you know what I'm like? No, he's praying to his father who is also God. They share one nature, but they exist in three co-equal persons. And so I think we have to grasp that. And I think that when we grasp that, we see that no, the father and the son and the Holy Spirit have this close intimate relationship with one another that helps us, you know, see God better. There's another text where Jesus says that the Father is greater than I.

And I've heard you say that that is also used as a reason for why Jesus can't possibly be God. Yeah, yeah. And John, you know, Jesus is basically encouraging the disciples. not to, you know, be afraid of his leaving. You know, he's saying, you know, if I, you know, I'm going to return to my father for my father is greater than I. And Jehovah's Witnesses, Hebrew Israelites, they all kind of ask me the same question. You know, why did Jesus say that the father is greater than I? And one of the things that I like to ask them is like, what context?

Like if I walk up to you and say, my friend is greater than I, don't think that you will automatically assume that he's a greater human being than me. You wouldn't say, oh, he's a greater human being to you. You would say, no, in which way are you saying that he's greater? Is he a greater father? Is he a greater husband? Is he a greater friend? And I think we just don't ask ourselves those questions

and we don't interrogate the text because we want the text to mean what we want it to mean. And so I think two things, two reasons why Jesus says that the father is written and nine. One reason is that I believe that the father has authority over the son. And, you know, he says that when I, the father, sent me into the world, right, to die for the sins of the world, right?

He says, I came to do my father's will, not my will. And so when Jesus humbled himself, go back to Philippians 2-5, it says he humbled himself and he became obedient to the point of death. And so we have to understand that when Jesus let go a lot of his privileges, he was submitted to the will of the father in ways that he wasn't submitted to the will of the father in heaven, right? And so that's what humility did. Jesus submitted himself to, and it even,

It even says that Jesus for a little while was made a little Lord and angels. And so we have to understand that that's great humility that Jesus is displaying here, that when he humbled himself and became a man, that he was submitted to his father's will in a way that he wasn't submitted to in heaven. But then someone even argued the fact, I mean, this has been an argument in Christian spaces for generations, actually, that some people believe that the father has always had an authoritative role over the son and some Christians believe that the father only had an authoritative role over the son when Jesus became a man and humbled himself. That's debatable. I lean more towards the fact of order of the

trium God for all of eternity. I lean more towards that. I don't think that that's a salvific thing if you believe one or the other. You still believe that Jesus is God almighty either way. But some people would say, no, Jesus had to, Jesus humbled himself, and that's why the father, that's why the father was greater than he was on earth. And some people would say, no, the father has always been greater than the son in role, but he has always been equal with the son in essence. And so I lean towards that more, that interpretation more than the other. I want to actually find the term if people wanted to research more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The term. Because it's long.

Yeah, the eternal subordination of the son. So if you want to dig into that theological debate, you can. Yeah. But in a nutshell, basically, I think Jesus is displaying there with the disciples, don't the father, is greater than I, but we should not automatically assume that he is talking about essence, right? In the same way, if we talk about role, my role is greater than yours. Right, as a husband, as a leader of our home.

But I'm not a greater human being than you. Right. And so what I am in essence, we're equal. Yeah. We're equal. We deserve the same amount of respect. We deserve the same amount of honor. And if somebody comes in my house and try to treat you less than because I'm the leader,

I'm not having a problem with that. And you are too. Right. And so I think we should look at God the same way. Is that no, the father and the son deserve the same amount of respect because they're equally God, even though their roles might be different. Is there a sense in which? not believing, like, that Jesus is God affects our grasp of the gospel.

Like, and what I mean is, like, I guess what is the significance of God, the incarnate God, so the God man dying for sin? Yes, because you really cannot understand the fullness of God's grace if you don't understand that no, God himself came to die for me. Like, like, not only do you not understand the sin? significance of God's grace, but you also don't understand the significance of your sin. Okay. How offensive your sin was to a holy and a righteous God and how no one else can do it. How no one else could have took your sin away, right? It's a God to come because he is the only perfect one.

He is the only one that can come to live as a man, to live a perfect life, and to literally like take your sins and in exchange give you his right. righteousness. It was the righteousness of God that we needed. Right? And so it's not that Jesus used a mere, it's not that the Father used a mere man to make us righteous. No, God used Him. God Himself died to give us His righteousness, right? And that was the exchange. It was like, no, we were so jacked up that the Father had to send someone who was also God to live a perfect life, to live a life that we could live and to die a death that we deserve so at the end he can exchange our sin for his righteousness. That's good.

And that's the gospel. And so for people who don't understand the significance of Jesus dying, no wonder why they work so much. Because if you don't understand the fullness of God's grace, you're going to work. If you don't understand the fullness of what God has done for you, you're going to look to works because every religion in the world has found something to work for to please God, Christianity. is the only one that says the God who finished the work found me. God himself condescended and became a man to die for you. And so if we don't understand that,

we really don't understand the love of God, how he came to express his love, and how he came to display his love to the world. And so I think it's a huge, I think it's a huge deal. That's big. It is. It's real big. Yeah, I think I was reading, I think it's the cross of Christ,

because somebody had asked me the question of like, why, why God? like, why couldn't he send an angel? And I guess I'm going to ask you that. You might actually just repeat the same thing. But why not an angel? Because angels, I'm not, they don't have sin either, right? So why couldn't they die for us? Like, why was it, why did it have to be God?

Yeah, because angels are inherently good. Right? They are created in the image. Not in the image of God. We're creating an image of God, but they are created beings. And so, um,

they, God didn't only send someone who was perfect. He sent someone who can remain perfect. Right? An angel can sin if they wanted to. We see this in heaven, right? That's deep. We see this in heaven, right?

And so when, when, when, um, even though he was, well, what, what, you're going to say something. What, what? That's so deep. Because it made me think about Christ's intercession

and how he stands in heaven at the right hand of the Father interceding for us. And it's like what you just said is major. Like because he can remain perfect because he's God, that means that our intercession is secure. Yes. Like if we would always low-key kind of be angsty if we had a quote-unquote savior who always had the possibility of being at odds. with God.

Absolutely. Oh my God. Absolutely. I've never thought of that. Yeah, yeah. And also, too, the father sent someone who, who, yeah, like, who he has always been in perfect relationship with, always been in close intimate relationship with. It says no one has seen the father at any time except the only begotten son who is in

the bosom of the father. When I studied the bosom part, it means in close, intimate, close proximity with the father for all of eternity, right? And so, like, the father, like, loved us so much that he sent his son, who he has eternally known for all of, all of, for all of, you know, not often to say all for all of the creation, but forever, right?

To come into the world, to dwell as a man, why? Because he loved us that much. You know, that's the great love of God, that God is not going to send a created being. But he's going to send himself to come into the world to dwell as a man, and to live a life amongst his own creation so at the end he can die for us.

He loves us. It's amazing. Oh, how he loves us. Oh, how he loves us. Oh, how he loves. He is jealous for me. Oh, my gosh. You're so irk.

I am a tree. You irk. It'd be funny how the different. churches change the one lyric. Like, we ain't singing no sloppy wet kiss around here. It's unforeseen. Unforeseen kiss. It's an unforeseen kiss. And he's

sanctified parts. Okay. No, I mean, I love this. I really think it's a big deal, you know. And I think that I think that, yeah, we have to understand that God loved us so much that he sent his son.

But understanding, like, what that meant, right? God himself came. Jesus was Emmanuel God with us. And that's the reason why I love Hebrews 414 so much where it says, seeing now, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens. It says, let us therefore hold firm to our confessions. For we do not have a high priest who was unable to sympathize with our weakness,

but one who was tempted in every respect just as we are yet without sin. Right? I love that scripture so much because it explains how Jesus became a man, like us, but he remained perfect. And so because he was perfect, right? Because he was a man, he was, he's able to empathize with my weakness. He's able to empathize when I get frustrated, when I get tired, when I get weak, right? Because like no other religion can say that God knows what it feels like to be human.

No other religion. Like, no Jehovah's Witnesses can't say that. You don't have a, you, you, you certainly. of a God who can never empathize with your humanity. Never. Right? And so understanding that Jesus is God, we understand that Jesus' compassion, God's compassion with us, it runs deep,

not because he's not merely because he's a creator, but because he became like us to empathize with our humanity. Right? And so this is the reason why, you know, the Bible says that we can come to the throne of confidence with boldness. I'm sorry, I said, I said, thrown to confidence. This is the reason why the scripture says we should come to the throne of grace with confidence, right?

Because we don't have a high priest, we don't have a God who doesn't know what it feels like to be human. And so I think understanding that Jesus is God, I think will allow us to worship God in ways that we probably don't even realize. That's good. You know, and so I think it's huge.

Do you have any, I guess, additional resources that if people wanted to go deeper into this or just some texts, do you think that those texts that you brought up today are some pretty, because I know you got to go get girls. Do you think that those texts that we went through today, John 1, Philippians,

two, John, the High Priestley Prayer, like, what's that, John 17? Yeah, John 17. Yeah, I would say study the book of John in depth. when you read the Bible, I think that you should get a Greek into litur to study what these words mean. You don't have to study the word all the time in the Greek,

but when you come across a word referring to the sun or referring to God and you're confused, don't automatically assume that it means human or God. Like, no, look at the original language. Anytime you want to know what something means, look at the original language that was written in. And so get that read with cross references. And so see what scholars throughout history have said about.

So commentaries and cross references. Yeah, commentaries, cross references. And, yeah, and pray. Like, pray and ask God to reveal to you how he exists. That's good. Because it's big. I mean, if God wants us to know that he came in this world to exist as a Jew, right every single detail about Jesus that he revealed in his word matters so how much more does he

want you to know then no i wasn't just somebody who died for your sins i was god how much more does he want you to know that that he is god and so um pray you know and ask god um to to reveal it to you that's good well thank you for doing the work sir all right peace bye with the paris is produced by the paris with support from amanda reed and channing b mcbride Editing by Xavier Fairley, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, artwork by hop, and music by swoop. If you'd like to support The Perry's, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is With the Perrys. Thank you for listening.

Now go with God.