With The Perrys - Is Seventh Day Adventism a Cult?

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

A few months back, Dr. Eric Mason joined Jackie and Preston to talk about church dynamics and denominations, and it got some pushback from members of the SDA (Seventh Day Adventism) community. As a follow-up, Dr. Mason is back to have a conversation with Elce “Thunder” Lauriston, who used to be a conference evangelist and defender of the Adventist faith… until he says “in good consciousness and integrity” he had no choice but to leave. This episode covers the key SDA doctrines that are contradictory to Biblical truth.   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up with y'all? My name's Preston Perry. So this episode is going to be a little different. We're not going to come in with the usual intro of it's the Saints and Nians, only because this is kind of like, you know, Bo TV is shish. You know what I'm saying? Have you ever watched my YouTube channel, Bo TV, or my apologetic channel, why engage with other religions, other faith background groups or whatever,

this is going to be one of those episodes. To give you a little context and background of why we're doing this episode, So, man, we had somebody that we respect in the faith. I believe one of the Giants in the faith, Pastor Dr. Eric Mason on talking about his latest book, Urban Apologetics. And in that conversation, Dr. Eric Mason, he, you know, he mentioned the SDA church. And some of the things that he felt like was problematic in their theology, when he did that, you know, there was a bunch of response videos.

And rightfully so, you know, the SDA church. a lot of them wasn't happy about what he said, but we didn't take time in the episode to kind of dig deeper and go deeper in what we feel like our theological differences are. And so before we even get started, I just want to first start off saying that if you ever watch my channel,

watch me engage with other religions, which is the reason why I just wrote a book, it's not to plug it, but to say, man, the way we give and when we talk about our differences matters to the Lord. So this is by no means a way to bash or to try to tear down somebody's faith

to be mean or to be cruel in any way, but this is an attempt to try to figure out truth, right, for the sake of the gospel. And so we have Dr. Eric Mason back with us. We have my beautiful wife back with us. She's probably the most quiet. Y'all will ever see Jackie on this podcast. I'm just here. Christ is my savage.

And so Jackie has questions. She'll. That's why. She'll. she'll she'll ask questions but we also have a special guest we call him brother thunder he is coming to us by way of jamaica right now um and i'll kind of pass the mic to dr eric mason now he'll probably teach you more about dr um me brother thunder and give you a little more back history well thank you all for having the boldness to do this

I think it's important to have, based on the pushback, I get it. And so I think that not only do SDAs deserve a response, but I think other believers deserve a response to kind of the brief part of the video that you all posted that was in the real and on your channels. So in light of that, I'm in a group with a group of people that are former SDAs. and in various, like, in various forms. So just to give you some background, like a few years ago, I didn't know the S, I didn't know anything about SDA beyond Saturday worship and food, dietary restrictions.

And so when we was doing the first urban apologetics had a young lady, no disrespect, because she's passed away at this time. Her name was Nefer. and she was in the urban apologetic community. And so her stuff on the comedic community engaged in Hebrew Israelites, plus her being like a lawyer. She's an animal. Like her stuff was like legit unreal,

like her ability to do apologetics. And so I didn't know anything. And so to make a long story short, some people was like, you know she's SD out. I'm like, no, but so? And they was like, what you mean? So do you know? And so I got a call.

And I started, they started saying, sending me information. I'm like, what? And so I'm like, I call or I talk to her. It was respectful, but it was clear that there was heterodoxy and heresy that was literally within the framework of our conversation. And so what ended up happening is this is what we felt, right? We felt that based on now and Reverend Elsie will let you know some of that stuff, right? Thunder, Brother Thunder, is like their philosophy is to come in by stealth. And so literally, we would have never known that she,

that we would have never known until some of the stuff came out. And then once it came out, then he started doing a bunch of videos on their fundamental doctrines, which is on her page still. And so Elsie has, three volumes on his theology, understanding, and framework for Seventh Day of Venice. He also just recently brought out a SDA for Dummies, and that's not a way to call anybody a dummies, just in the Dummies kind of series. You know what I'm saying?

And so I wanted to give him a chance just to give a brief kind of overview of who he is, his background, and what led him to come out of the SDA church. Then from there, if y'all don't mind, I would love for us to kind of do. dig into his chapter a little bit. And that doesn't mean we're reading a chapter. But what I want to do is just go over some of the doctrines and just have you respond. And it'd be dope is as y'all hear stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Or haven't heard to like jump in with some questions. Yeah, yeah. And before he say something, I just say one thing, too, I would imagine that there are a bunch of people who would look at this and say, man, why aren't there any SDA people here representing the SDA position? because that was one of the things that we saw over and over, get some SDA people, get some SDA people on, just to let you guys know that me and Eric Mason,

we reached out to multiple SDA people and asked them to come on this platform to talk about the differences. Some of the most popular ones when they did response videos to our video, if you go back on the Instagram, you will see me commenting, like in the comments saying, come on with the pairs, we'll love to have a respectful conversation with you, and all of them declined. And so this is the- Or didn't respond.

Or didn't respond. Either decline or response. So this is the reason why we kind of went with this method. And so just letting you know. So if it's somebody out there who want to come back on here, we can have a part three later on. So just like y'all know that. So, yeah, Brother Thunder. Blessings to all of you, Dr. Mason.

Thank you again for the opportunity to have written the chapter in your book, as well as the paris for inviting me to be here with them to discuss some of the differences. and the conclusions we draw on Seventh-Day Adventism. I was a Seventh-day Adventist for 10 years, and out of those 10, I was a conference evangelist for four years, and a conference evangelist in Seventh-day Adventism is a big deal. It's not like I was an insignificant small fry, a regular average Joe Schmole.

I was a conference evangelist employed by the conference that I lived in, to do crusades, preachings, teachings all over the island, and wherever I'm invited overseas as well, to preach, bring people into Adventism, defend the Adventist faith. I was also a theology student studying at their flagship institution here in Jamaica, Northern Caribbean University. I was in my third year of pastoral studies when I began to discover fatal flaws with SDA theology. And I was not an average student either. I was one of the best students they had straight A student, know the doctrines in and out, was preaching them every weekend and the whole nine yards. And so just to put that out there where my SDA credentials are concerned,

and anybody who wants to look more into my experience into Adventism, I have tons of materials, interviews, written, and video that I was. have done online that they can watch, they can read, and ascertain the facts for themselves. And so Adventism is different from mainstream Protestant Christianity in a variety of ways. And when one reads the chapter that I wrote in Dr. Eric Mason's book, you will actually see that. of the Adventism, we see clearly the way it came about was not in the best lighted. Oroes out of the Millerite movement of the 1800s, the Great Awakening in America, influenced by his preaching that Christ was coming between 1843 through to 1844

after multiple failed prophecies that did not happen. and so October 22, 1844, when the great disappointment occurred, there was a group that continued to believe that something did happen, but they simply had the wrong event. And the following day, October 23, an Adventist by the name of Hiram Edson, claimed that while they were walking through a cornfield, that he saw a vision in which heaven was open and instead of Jesus coming to earth as they had believed,

he moved from the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to the most holy place to begin a work of investigative judgment. And so that was a face-saving vision that salvaged the Adventist Church. And then when two months after the disappointment in December 1844, Ellen White, who became the central figure that united them, became their prophet, endorsed Hiram Edson's vision and then began this. system we now know today are simply Adventism. There's a whole lot that I'm not able to get into, but just to give you a brief backdrop with regards to how this movement started. And then we can discuss the various theological differences that they have with the wider body of Christ.

Yeah, so that's very important. What sparked you to leave, though? What was like the thing that kind of was the linchpin for you? Yeah. So while I was studying up there, I began to study. I studied biblical hermeneutics and New Testament Greek and aspects of church history. And I became very proficient in those. And so the more I started to apply the hermeneutical principles I was learning,

like contextual reading of scripture, taking into account the author, the audience, the grammar, the language, the socioeconomic context and all of that, instead of the widely used SDA method of interpretation, which is while proof texting, where context is ignored and proof texts are employed indiscriminately to formulate and defend their doctrines. And so when I started to do that, as well as became very proficient in New Testament Greek, then I started to realize that the doctrines could not stand to biblical and historical scrutiny. And I then began to ask pressing questions in class to the lecturer. and the professors and they were uncomfortable answering.

I began to raise certain objections to the teachings until it became a huge problem with me being there because prior to that, I was, again, the conference evangelist and Adventist defender. But now, as I learn all of these different things, I started to challenge the teachings based on what hermeneutics was unveiling, what New Testament Greek was unveiling. And as a result of that, I had no longer. choice but to leave the system because when I asked about these things and I had various meetings with the lectures and the entire school of religion and theology board, they were simply trying to get me to ignore these things that I was seeing. Don't share my doubts of finance with anyone

and just focus on having a good career in the Adventist church. They would tell me things like, just preach with the church teachers. The church is going to pay you well. You have such a great future ahead of you, so many of the guys here wish they were in your position. So just ignore these things and just continue to preach and teach the Adventist doctrines because that's what you're going to be paid for. And I, in good conscience and integrity, could not do that. And so six months after that, this began September 2015. By February to April, I had no choice but to leave. And by the way, people from the church worse than in me to school, from them to get my degree to become an ordained SDA pastor.

So I had to eventually part ways with all of that, have various talks and discussions and interviews with leaders, presidents, secretaries, big wigs in the NSA church here in Jamaica. And everyone I went to, every meeting, every discussion, it is the same thing. Just focus on the financial benefits, the social status and social aspect of things

and ignore all that you're seeing and I in good conscience could not do that and so that's why I left. Yeah. So, I mean, you had a question past? I'm going to lead into this. What is your podcast? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have some experience, quite a bit of experience, you know, giving the gospel and having conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses,

some LDS and stuff like that. And one of the things that I've seen while engaging in a conversation with them is that the doctrine seems very close to Orthodox Christianity. When you sought to ask the right questions, you see that there is some clear differences in the fundamental beliefs and principles of, you know, Orthodox Christianity. And so I guess my question with the SDAs, I'm not as familiar with even talking and having conversations with seven-day events is, what are the key foundational essential? differences between Orthodox Christianity and the SDA church that, you know, a lot of people might not be aware of. Yeah, there are a lot of them. Adventists use the same lingo, the same terminology, but they generally

mean different things in Adventism. And so they have beliefs that are similar to the Trinity, Salvation by Grace through faith, and a lot of other things. But When you get into their overarching worldview, they filter everything through what they call the great controversy worldview. And a number of their scholars, the GC president and the wide spectrum of Adventism, this is how they see the world, the great controversy worldview. And that is defined it, define it. The writings of LNG white. Elsie, real quick, before we get there, I want you to define it. because that'll help.

And so if you could backtrack just a little bit and define why, to lead an oppressive question real well, what would you, how did LNG white authority get established? That's number one. Number two, does, because we hear in a lot of comments, right, that nobody goes by that and we've evolved since then.

how would you connect their historic connection to LNG White in the beginning to now? Is it still effective? And then let's go into, because that's really important. The great controversy is, to me, it's crazy. And it really goes against everything at Nasea. You know what I'm saying? It's fundamentally against the Nassian Council. So if you could, and the fourthly, if you can remember this,

I'll ask it over. Do they still hold to the great controversy as a standardized doctrine that all SDA churches must believe? You got those four? Got you. Yeah, good questions. So Ellen White is seen as the Adventist

prophetist. As I said, it started from October, November 1844, 17 years old, and she began to have dreams and vision. and she was the central figure that unified this band of disillusioned Millerites, who later became the Seventh-Achrist Church. And from that time, throughout her life, they claimed that she would have had over 2,000 visions and dreams. Her writings are authoritative for them.

They still officially hold to her writings as speaking with prophetic authority. her she was used her visions and explanations of doctrines and cultural way of life, etc. were what cemented Adventist doctrines, life, theology, etc. And so Ellen White is the Joseph Smith of Mormonism, the Muhammad of Islam and the Charles Russell of the Jewish Witnesses. what those guys are for their religion, that's what Ellen White is for Seventh-day Adventism. When they were studying something, she was totally ignorant and clueless of scripture and its teaching.

She could not understand scripture, but she would be listening from a distance. And when they came out on a pass where they just could not go further, they were confused about something, she would break off into vision. And she claims that clear explanation of whatever it is they were studying were given to her. She then would explain it to them,

and those explanations would become cemented Adventist doctrines and teachings. And she claims that this was given not only for that time, but as it were in a cosmic sweep, from that time straight through to the Second Advent of Christ, and they inhabit the New Jerusalem. From their very beginning,

through to today, Ellen White continues to be the voice. She continues to be the center around which Adventism revolves. So their doctrines, their church policy, their practices, university courses dealing with the Adventist Church and its doctrines, their Sabbath school study guides the whole nine yards, their health message, their global evangelism. Through and through, everything is grounded on Ellen White and her rights. Let me ask you this. Yes, Doc? Yeah, based on that, based on what you're saying,

do all Adventists know and understand that LNG White still influences the framework of their doctrinal foundation to this day? All of them should. And those who claim that she does not be and not being truthful. Adventists have a 28 fundamental beliefs book that explain and justify their doctrines. And fundamental belief number 18 of that is based on Ellen White. The gift of prophecy, the spirit of prophecy, is a reference to Ellen White. And in that, they make it absolutely clear that they believe she had the gift of prophecy

and her writings speak with prophetic authority, and they provide for the church comfort, guidance, correction, etc. Every five years when there's a general conference session, and that is the highest body in their church, they issue a statement of confidence in the writings of Ellen White. Wow. And they make it clear that they continue to have confidence in her writings,

and her writings correct inaccurate intents, interpretations of scripture. So she's a divine interpreter of scripture. Also, before one is baptized a Seventh-day Adventist member, there are 12 vows that one have to take in front of the church in the form of questions. And one of those vows is to pledge of faith and belief in Ellen White's prophetic ministry and her writings and pledging to read them, et cetera. So in the comments, because this is very important, because I bet you, Presta,

you experienced it too. Is the Bible here and LNG White's writings here? Is LNG white's writings here, the Bible here, or are they here? When you look at what they have to say about her,

when they teach about her, she would be above the Bible. Because she is the interpreter of the Bible. Now hold on, bro. You know these comments going to be lit up. you got to prove that.

So give us some proof. Give us one quick proof because I got to get, I want to move one to these other doctrines, but I think the foundation of LNG White is important, don't you agree? Yes. And so give us a solid example across the entire global denomination

or movement, faith movement, because it's not a denomination. But like that proves that. Because I'm telling you in the comments, people are going to say you're not in our church, that's not true here. Because you know that, right? You know they're going to say that. So from your perspective, how would you encourage you?

Let me read their official doctrinal statement on Ellen White, and then I'll read the statement of confidence that is said about Ellen White. And there are tons of other statements and quotes from their official sources across Adventism that I have documented in my books. Hiding in Plainside, Volume 1, and Adventism made easy, the one I recently published. Yeah. The scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the Roman Church, and we believe it was manifested in the Ministry of Ellen G. White.

Her writing speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is. is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Now catch this doc. The writing speak with prophetic authority in the same way that Isaiah speak with prophetic authority, the entirety of scripture speak with prophetic authority. In fact, when you see the exposition of Ellen White's writings, as well as what she said about herself, how she conceptualized her gift and calling,

She makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is both the author of scripture as well as of her writings. She makes that clear through and through. And Seventh-day Adventist scholarship leaders continue to argue this for her. So basically you're saying that officially they would include her writings as theopinutas as 2nd Timothy 316. all scripture is inspired by God. And so because it's funny, when you read that statement, it's the same language of 2nd Timothy 316. Absolutely.

That's what they use and borrow and apply to Ellen White and her writings. Now, here's another quote from their highest decision-making body. And this was in 2015. And if you go on their website, it is still there. And the 2021 is the same reaffirmation. This was at the 2015 General Conference session. And here's what the delegates said. We, and I quote, we reaffirm our conviction.

Speaking of Ellen White and her writings, that her writings are divinely inspired, fully Christ-centered and Bible-based. Rather than replacing the Bible, they uplift the normative character of scripture and correct, inaccurate interpretations of it derived from tradition, human reason, personal experience, and modern culture. And this here, you can go on the Adventist.org website and just look up statement of confidence,

and you will see that it is still there. This is what they believe about Ellen White. That's crazy. And so the reason that I said, and anyone who is reading this, can conclude that she's above scripture, is that. Scripture is divinely inspired. They say her writings are divinely inspired. Scripture should be interpreted with proper biblical hermeneutics.

But if we notice here, they make it clear that she corrects inaccurate interpretations of doctrines from scripture. And by the way, those inaccurate interpretations of doctrines are whatever disagrees with Seventh-day Adventist doctrines and theology. So that correction is done by not Hermitius. to exegesis, little grammatical, historical, historical, historical, canonical, crystallological, redemptive historical and interpretation of the text. No, it's done by her prophetic visions that interpret the Bible directly based on her being under the spirit's influence, right? Yes.

Okay. So in light of that, right? Because we got to move, I want to move to the next one because I know, you know, your time and all of that, but we wanted to get through these few things. I want to please jump in. Because this is so important, Christology. That's what I was about to act next. Yeah, like the great controversy, fundamentally, is about Christology, the study of understanding who Jesus is.

So can you succinctly walk us through the great controversy? And then let us know whether or not the great controversy is still applied to the person of Christ today. Absolutely. through and through the great controversy, worldview, and teachings is what defines Adventism. One of their scholars, Herbert W. Douglas, but several others as well, makes it clear that it is the center around which everything resolved. It's what the theory of everything, that explains everything and pulls all the doctrines, their lifestyle, their mission, everything together. The Adventist pioneers were not Trinitarians. They were Aryans and semi-Aerians.

they profusely rejected the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ. And so in the Greek controversy motive, when you study Ellen White's writings and what the Adventist Church believes, is that Jesus was Michael the archangel, leader of the angels of heaven, Satan or Lucifer, was also an archangel and also a leader of the angels in heaven. And so eventually God promoted, that is God the Father, promoted Jesus to be equal with himself to deity status and invited him into his counsel and fellowship and purposes. Now Satan or Lucifer who was also a co-equal archangel with Jesus, but jealous of Jesus' promotion because he thought that he was deserving of that promotion more of. better than Jesus. And so being jealous of Jesus' promotion to deity and God status, he then began to travel the heaven and the unfallen worlds, as Adventist teach and believe, and begin to slander and challenge God's character and authority, stating that his laws are unjust, they can't be kept in the whole nine yards. He was able to deceive one third of the angels with him, and this

now began this great controversy between Christ and Satan. This is also one of their fundamental doctrinal beliefs. One line type of the great controversy and you will see it. Go on to Adminus website. So, Brother Thunder, can I ask you a question? Just before you ask the question requested. Let me just. You got my mind going. You got my mind going. But be that as

as it may. So now God and Christ are engaged in an arm wrestling match with Satan. This great controversy where God now has to prove that he is just, that he is loving, and that his law can be kept. And at the center of this great controversy is the Ten Commandment Law. And when you go further into that, it is the Sabbath. And so God and Satan are in an arm wrestling match so that God can prove his

justice, the justness of his law and its sovereignty. And this now will ultimately be done through Seventh-day Adventists, ultimately keeping the law perfectly to vindicate the character of God. Within this great controversy paradigm, the main reason Jesus came to earth, to be a man and subjected to all of this and to die, et cetera, is to actually vindicate and defend the law of God from the accusations of Satan. He was the perfect example. He proved that the law can be kept. So now Adventists, empowered by the Holy Spirit,

can do the same and ultimately vindicate God's law and his character from the attacks and the accusations of Satan. Wow. So this is in a nutshell what the great controversy is, and this continues to be the overarching worldview that defines Adventists. this theology. It explains their Sabbath doctrine, their fixation on the 10th commandment law, their health message, soul sleep, the nature of humans, evangelism,

their view of Roman Catholicism and Protestant Christianity, their eschatology, their doctrine of being the sole and exclusive a remnant church, the only true church on earth. Everything is defined and explained through this great controversy lens and the worldview. Man, you just said a mouthful, bro. Thank you for the background and the education, man. A lot of this stuff is even new to me. Okay, a lot of what you just said sounds a lot like the Jehovah's Witness faith that I'm pretty familiar with, right?

They also believe that Jesus is reincarnated as Michael the Archangel. and when I had conversations with them, they clearly believe that Jesus is not the eternal God, right, that he is a creative being, Michael the Archangel, right? But when we put this online and it was all in the comments, there were multiple people who said they believe that, who at SDA, they said they believe that Jesus was the eternal God and that he was not, that he was referred to as Michael the Archangel,

but at the same time, like, that was just one of his names, but he is the eternal God, the same thing that Orthodox Christians believe. And so can you explain, like, is it them just clearly having a misunderstanding of the historical background of the, of the SDAA church that you just gave? Like, why do you think, to me, it seems like so many Christians don't, I mean, so many SDAs don't believe that or don't understand the church history in that way. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, a lot of what the Adventist Church does is that because for them subconsciously,

Ellen White is infallible, there are those back in the day who's to be straight up and say she's infallible. But these days, especially since the 1950s with the evangelical dialogues with Dr. Walter Martin, they're more shy to just embrace what they actually believe. And so they cover up a lot of these teachings with proof text from scripture and verbiage of orthodoxy. And so they believe that exact theology about Michael the Archangel. In fact, the Jehovah's Witnesses, when they came around in 1879, they got that theology from Seventh-A Adventists. Wow, I didn't know that. Witnesses founder was influenced by Seventh-Dade. Adventism.

So Soul Sleep and Michael the Archangel and a number of other things, Jova's Witnesses got from Seventh-day Adventists, and they continue to be faithful to the original teaching. But because Adventism now start to get a lot of flack and that they want to appear to be more orthodox, just like everybody else, they have piled on a lot of verbiage and proof-text of orthodoxy to make it look like we are orthodox and we've always been that way.

And so that is why you see they'll run through scripture to prove that the angel of the Lord and the Old Testament is Michael the Archangel and all of these different things, that Michael is the only archangel and it simply means chief of the angels and the list goes on. So what they've done, they still have the original teaching, but they pile on a lot of things that make it look orthodox. And they're awesome as these who don't seem to know that. So let me ask you this. I know one of the reasons, well, one of the ways in which the Jehovah's Witnesses tried to justify

that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, because in 1950, they published the New World Translation, right, that changed the original Greek text, like John 1, it says, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the world was a God, not the God. He was in the beginning of God through him all other things were created, right? And so they changed the person of Christ there. They also highly, I know, misinterpreted scriptures where it says that, you know, in Thessalonians, I think, it says that Jesus will descend with the voice of an archangel and the sound of a trumpet. Doesn't say he is an organ, you say he would have the voice of an archangel, right?

And so these are passages that I talk to Jehovah's Witnesses about. But the seven-day events is, they don't have another translators. of the Bible, or I wouldn't even call it, I wouldn't call the New World Translation, respectfully a translation. I think it's another, I think it's a perverted version of the Bible. But the SDA people, they, you know, the SDAH church they had, they read the Bible.

And so how do they justify Jesus, not being the eternal God, but a created being, Michael the Archangel? How do they, well, how did they come to that, to their understanding? Although most Adventists don't use their version of the Bible, Adventists do have a version of the Bible they've created. Whoa. Okay.

The clear word Bible. You can look it up online. Wow. The clear word Bible. I'm going to look it up now. Written and published by a Seventh Adventist professor. It is published by an official organ of the Seventh Adventist Church, the Review and Herald Publishing Association. And it is also used in the Seventh Amendmentist Church, although not widely.

It is sold in Adventist bookstores all over the world as a Bible. under the section of Bibles. Wow. And when you read the Clare Word version, the Clare Word Bible of Adventists, they do the very same things that Jova's Witnesses do in their Bible. And so scripture is butchered, reinterpreted, distorted, to agree with Seventh-Fay Adventist, doctrines, and teachings in their Clare Word Bible.

Are you saying that they minimize Jesus for being the eternal God and make him a God? Because I think people will hear you say that and be like, what do you mean we do the same thing as Jehovah's Witnesses? Because in the Bible, when it refers to Jesus being God Almighty, it clearly says that he is not God Almighty, right? And when you talk to Jehovah's Witness, they would clearly say, no, we don't believe that Jesus is God Almighty.

We believe that he is Michael the Archangel, the son of God, that God was the first person, the first being that God created as a master worker to create the heavens and earth and all of the things. And so when you said it does the same, thing in which way does it do the same thing? I just want to, for clarity, say. For example, if you read and declare a Bible of Jude 9, Michael Archangel is referring to Jesus. Ellen White has a lot of statements in which she say, for example, the Lord,

Jesus Christ is not the Lord God Almighty, and this is sacrosan teaching force and the Adventist. However, you have to understand the way their mind work in terms of of cognitive dissonance and the doctrine and theology, whatever it is, is very contradictory based on Ellen White's writing. So you can always find quotes and statements and teachings from their prophet's writings that support any position that you want to hold. There's a growing movement in Adventism right now, a growing Aryan anti-trinitarian movement in Seventh-the Adventism who are trying to bring the Adventist Church back to the historical

roots based on what LNY teaches and what the pioneers of the administrative church teaches. And so while you have some who are trying to present themselves as being orthodox because they have

adopted orthodox language on Trinitarian language and the whole nine yards, recall that LN white's writings are authoritative. They are used to to filter scripture, to interpret scripture, to understand scripture.

And they are pushed at every level of Adventism. So as you read scripture and as you read Ellen White's writings, you're going to end up in this sort of confusing mess that you have. And so, yes, you will see on their website and in a lot of their publications, they speak highly of Jesus. They have high Christology. When you actually go down the rabbit hole and read Ellen White's writings and look at their publications and were they also

who will equally authoritative. You're going to find a confused mess is to who Jesus is in Adventism. That's crazy. That's crazy. So, man, you pretty much did an amazing job establishing this whole idea of the great controversy.

So the next thing we want to dive into is investigative judgment. And that was a really, really, so you saw the guy on Twitter, right? and so he got like all these responses. Didn't I send it to you? And I put it in the feed, but the guy that was on Twitter.

Yeah, I saw him. Did you read it? I saw them. Dr. Eric Mason, what, you had to question you on the ex. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the guy is a guy on X that did a response to me just asking questions about different things, particularly Archangel Michael, but then also investigative judgment. Number one, do you believe the investigative judgment?

What is investigative judgment, number one, and why is it heretical? And number three, how does it undermine justification by faith? Okay, wonderful. So the guy who did that response is Pastor Ty Gibson. He's an Adventist pastor. We would refer to him as a neo-adventist. Answering Adventism as Christian on YouTube. He has a lot of videos.

reaction and response videos to him. So he's not a small fry. He's one of the big shots of Adventism. You watch on TV and that kind of thing. So when I read his response, he did not even begin to scratch the surface or to touch with the investigative judgment. All he did was to pull some judgment texts of scripture.

Scripture talks about judgment as if Christians don't believe in judgment. We believe in judgment. and tried to make it appear that this is the investigative judgment. So what is the investigative judgment of Adventism? Well, let's go back to the beginning. October 23, 1844, their disillusioned, Quastatai Gibson was the one who responded to Dr. Eric Mason, and he pulled a lot of judgment texts from scripture

and tried to argue and defend that this is what the investigative judgment was. He did not go into the... the history of the doctrine, how it was created, why it was created to save the face of the movement, and how it is explained and defined and defended in Adventism. He did not do any of that. So let's go back to October 23, 1844. They're bitterly disappointed. Some of them are committing suicide, all kind of crazy things going on. Haremidson, and another one is walking through the cornfield, and he claims that instead of Jesus come in to the earth to cleanse it by fire, he moved from the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to the most holy place

to begin a work of investigative judgment. Ellen White then claims to have a same vision, endorses what he says, and then develops an entire system around this investigative judgment doctrine. This doctrine, by the way, is not held by, by any other Christian church on earth. Neither from the first century nor through to the day. Jews who would have read scripture, the Old Testament, for hundreds of years, Daniel 814,

where this doctrine is based from. They never, never seen it. So no other Christian church subscribes to nor derives the investigative judgment teaching from scripture. This is uniquely Adventist, and it is based on the, initial vision of Hiram Edson and then expanded and cemented by LNG White, their prophetess. So this is what, and so defending it, understanding it, and explaining it can only be done with

her writings. What they have done, though, is that now that they believe it, they hunt down proof text of scripture. It talks about judgment and that kind of thing to prove. See, this is the investigative judgment when that is not the case at all. So here's a quote from her as to what that is and how it started. She says, and I quote, attended by heavenly angels, our great high priest, enters the Holy of Holies, and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of his administration in behalf of man to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment, the only case is considered are those of the professed people of God.

The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work done at a later time, period. So here's essentially what this is. In 1844, Jesus started this work of investigative judgment. He starts with the generation of Adam. He starts with all of those who would have died, who had faith in God. And beginning with Adam's generation, he minutely, with piercing, scrutinizing eyes, go through all of their lives and details and splitting ears to see if they are safe to save. If they have one known or unconfessed sin, they can't be saved.

And he goes from Adam's generation through to the last dead sin. and then after that he moves on to the living. Now, during this time period, no one knows if they are saved. Adventists do not know if they are saved. Wow. Or will be saved until they pass the investigative judgment when Jesus returns.

Here's another quote from her about this, explaining what this is. She says, as the books of record are open in the judgment, the lives of all who are believed, on Jesus, they come and review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our advocate presents the cases of each successive generation

and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted. This is supposedly those who should be saved. Names are accepted and names are rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names are blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. She also goes on to say that every record or every sin is dealt with with terrible exactness and scrutiny. God minutely filters the lives of everyone who claims to believe in him

to determine if he can eventually save them. So in this doctrine, no one is really saved. You come into self of the Adventism. Wow. And then you now are in line to be processed through the investigative judgment. So while this is going on now, they also tie with this their doctrine of sinless perfectionism. where you have to work to become sinlessly perfect through obeying the hordes and the myriads of Adventist rules, Ellen White rules, Sabbath keeping, selling her books, paying your tithe, and becoming a vegan and the whole nine yards so that you may potentially pass the investigative judgment.

As you can already hear, this already contradicts the doctrine of justification by faith. Because where they are concerned, you aren't really saved. You can't be sure that you are saved right now. And the blood of Christ does not cancel your sin. That's another thing she says as well. Wow. They stand there to witness against you. And it's when Christ processes you through the investigative judgment.

And he finishes. That's when you may possibly be saved. The first round five of 11 through 13, you know what I'm saying? These things I've written to you who believe in the name of the son of God that you may know you have eternal life. He who has the son has a life. He who does not have the son does not have the life. So basically there's no sense of eternal security, correct? No, none at all.

And this belief, by the way, is fundamental belief number 24 in their official doctrinal statements. That's crazy. And when you read it, they go through proof text of scripture. And quotes from Ellen White to defend this doctrine. Yeah, I have a couple of, just a couple more questions. Yeah. So what would you say to the people who say, you know, I've ran into, I'm keeping, you know, examples of other faith groups that I've talked to

just because I've just heard a lot of questions and a lot of pushback or whatever that, you know, what Charles Tays, Russell's tall in the 1800s, he was just a man, right? you know what Joseph Smith taught in the 1800s he was just a man what LNG like for the people who don't believe that LNG white's writing or whatever it's authoritative and they don't necessarily believe in the things that you're talking about right now how is still being a part of the SDA church problematic and dangerous to Christians who feel like they hold to the true foundational beliefs of the Orthodox Christian faith. It's a very good question. Some of them, especially those who are liberal SDAIs and those who are evangelical Linen SDAs try to do that, but it is still problematic

because even though they may claim they don't believe in Ellen White, they don't read her writings, they don't care about what she has to say, at the same time, the very foundational which they stand is Ellen White, whether it's directly or indirect. You cannot escape Ellen White in Adventist theology, worldview, demomination, and lifestyle.

Yeah. So even though they may claim to reject her and don't pay any attention to her, what they are embracing about the Sabbath is Ellen White. Their view of Christ of the Trinity is Ellen White. Their view of dietary matters is Ellen White. their view of Christian churches that worship on Sunday are doing something wrong and are sinful and are in the life of the mark of the beast is Ellen White.

Yeah, what's crazy is... Everything is Ellen White. Yeah, what's crazy is I see like an ongoing thing, especially, you know, quote unquote prophets who raised up in the 1800s, like Joseph Smith of the LDS and, you know, Charles Taze Russell of Jehovah's Witnesses and even William Conley of Hebrew Israelism,

you know, when you, when you, when you research these leaders, because they were these faith leaders, well, religious leaders, back then it seemed that people held to their writings and their prophecies a little more than their followers do today, or the followers of these religions today.

But it seems as if time went on, you talk to Jehovah's Witnesses, they would say, man, you know, Charles Taze Russell isn't our leader. He's just a man that God used to actually start the Wash Tower and Track Society organization, which later on became the Jehovah's Witnesses

after he died. same thing with the LDS yada yada yada and it seems as if you know my my LDS friends kind of do the same thing with LNG white that that that that in a lot of ways they kind of me SDAA that's what I meant to say SDAA I'm sorry I meant to say that it seems as if they don't really ascribe to her being a true a true profit you know or they might think that she's a true prophet, but they don't really like, they say they believe in the Bible more than her writings, right? But my question, my next question is,

when I, when I research other religions or whatever, I can, you can, you can Google or you can, like, find, like, original copies of Charles Taze Russell's monthly journals when he first started to publish his monthly journals. And so for an SDA person say, well, where are you getting all this information from? Like, how can we, how can we obtain some of these things that you're saying right now, what resources can you point them to to show them, you know,

all of the stuff that you said? Yeah, it's all there. There's some free Ellen White Ritance apps. There's the LNG white estate or the white estate. So these are still there. There are tons of website, the SDA archives, again, literature that they currently use and study from. In fact, do a quick web search right now and look at their. current Sabbath school study guide. And these are booklets that teach on a particular doctrine or teaching, Adventist teaching, or whatever, for a quarter. So in a three months period. And you'll see right now they are currently studying the Great Controversy.

And this is not just one church here, one church there. This is the global church of Adventism. And they are in almost every country on earth. Everyone is uniformly studying the same thing. So even those who claim that we don't make much of her, their church. And if they are a pastor, they are using the SDA Sabbath school study guide to great controversy to teach their church this stuff. Wow. Yes, interesting.

I just pulled. That's what they currently study in the Greek controversy. Wow. Yeah, I pulled it up just now. It's crazy. And they have a conference call, hit the mark Sabbath school, pun intended. Hit the mark. Wow.

the beast. But last thing, man, I wanted to discuss because I think this is, this was disturbing to me. It was very, very disturbing. And that is the scapegoat theology. Can you give us a brief synopsis of a person? I'd love to hear you interact with it as he brings it out to see like what you think of it. Once you hear, hear it. I know you said, you know, we was talking a few weeks ago. Maybe a month ago, you was like, man, I've been just going to bed every night and I'm just, I got stuff on the phone. Yeah, he'd be sending me stuff. He'd be, he, he, he, uh, Pastor Eric Mason, he'd be sending me stuff. And I'd be, I'd be, Jack, you're like, you still read. I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm, one night I read for like four hours straight. And I was like, man, I'm learning.

And I know some people who probably see me interact in an apologetic space, you know what I'm, I'm talking. But right now I'm asking questions because, you know, right now you're seeing me as a learner. Because I, I, I didn't know a lot of this stuff. And so, yeah, yeah, I would love to hear about the scapegoat. So their scapegoat theology tries in with the investigative judgment. So they believe that

when the price would have finished his intercessory work in heaven, he is going to be returning. And at that time now, he's going to cease into Seed for Adventist so they have to stand before God without a mediator while he's on his way and they would have to have been sent to the perfect bend. And so when he comes, he's actually going to take all of the sins of God's people that Satan would have caused him to commit.

And then he places them on Satan who is going to bear them. And so let me read a quote from her where she says exactly this. And what they do after this now is just rework it in scripture. So they go to Leviticus chapter 16 and they say, see, one goat is for the law that was killed and sacrificed, the other goat that bears the sins away, Azazel, it is Satan. So Satan is the scapegoat. He is the sin bearer. So let me read a quote from her. And of course, they adhere to a lot of the Jewish folk law and myth around Azazel in the ancient Neri's period and some reformers who would have made statements along that line to try to justify. it. But if you notice today, though, as scholars, Christian scholars continue to study, you will not find any Christian church that holds to

Satan being the scapegoat. When they understand the typology in Leviticus chapter 16 and then what scripture says in Isaiah 53, Peter and many other places about Jesus and the whole process of atonement, the day of atonement, one goat died for the sins and the other

on which the sins were was placed was for expiation, the removal of the sins from among the people. And this is a beautiful picture of what Jesus did as the sinless sacrifice. He vicariously dies for us and he's the one who bears our sins. But because of what Ellen White says

and what she says is infallible, it is sacrosanct. They cannot embrace that Jesus is the scapegoat. So they have to hold on to Satan being the scapegoat. Here's what she says. This is from the great controversy. It was seen also that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator,

the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will be finally placed. When the high priest by virtue of the blood of the sin offering removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of his own blood, removes the sins of his people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, He will place him upon Satan, who in the execution of the judgment must bear the final penalty. The schedule was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel.

So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and his people. And he will be blotted out from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners. And this is coming from the Greek controversy page 422 paragraph 2. And throughout their theology, up to 8.000. 1897, Ellen White was saying Satan is the scapegoat. But interestingly, in 1897, as she would have read more, Christian authors and Orthodox authors, because she did a lot of plagiarizing too.

She flip-flops on this and say it's actually Jesus, who's the scapegoat. The Adventist Church cannot and will not accept that later statement because the prior Satan is the scapegoat is everywhere else. And so she contradicts herself on it, by the way. But they continue to argue it because it does still in well with their investigative judgment doctrine and theory. So what are you saying? Are you saying that SDAs today wildly accept that Jesus is, Jesus is not the scapeboat, but they stick to LNG's original statement by Satan being the scapegoat? Is that what you're saying? Absolutely.

Absolutely. Wow. It does not matter how many evidence you present that Jesus is the scapegoat. He's the send bearer, the day of atonement. It was one sin offering. Both animals have to be spotless and unblemished. And both goats represent one sacrifice. One died and one took away the sins.

It's different sides at the same point. It doesn't matter how much you present that. Even Colossians 2, 16, and 17, is, it's, crystal clear when it says, don't let anyone judge you on Christable, New Mon or Sabbath. These are a shadow of things that come with the substance is Christ.

Festival, New Monon and Sabbath is referring to the Old Testament feast days. And the Day of Atonement is a festival. Yeah. And the text makes it clear that it's a shadow of Christ. Yeah.

Everything about it is a shadow of Christ. But they will reject that. When you look at what the scapegoat is. It was an innocent victim that suffered for the guilty. That took the blame of punishment of the guilty. And that's what Jesus is.

They reject everything. And they would go on for hours. Pastor Iver Myers who declined joining the conversation. He did a video. That took a long ago. And he's going about hours trying to justify the scapego is Satan and not Jesus. Wow. They'll go

through whatever hoops they have to. Because again, They have to be true to what Ellen White says that Satan is the scapegoat and not Jesus, and they ignore the implications of it. That it's blasphemous, it's heretical. It puts Satan again like Michael the Archangel and Lucifer the Archangel on equal footing. Just as how you need Jesus to die for the sins on the day of the tournament, the scapegoat has to take them away. If one die and the other doesn't take it away, there is no forgiveness of sin. There's no salvation.

They don't understand that. they will not accept it. Well, you study scripture. Lamedicus 16. And the rest of scripture, that's what it is. That's crazy because it seems like across the board. They will go through hoops. Yeah, it seems like across the board.

They just undermine Christology. Yeah. And it's funny, you know, I was thinking about as you was even talking about the Sabbath and, you know, Sunday worship, you know, the first will be last and the last will be first, you know. Probably, I'm pretty sure somebody in the history, SDA, applied the first day of the week being last, and the last people who celebrate the last day of the week being first. But anyway, I'm good, man. Yeah, that's good. That's good. I think, I think the things that I walked away with,

you know, I know sometimes people can think, like, things like this is majoring over minors, but it's really the key foundational essentials of the gospel. Who is the person of Christ? And so if he's a creative being, that's a, that's a complete contradiction of, you know, of what the Bible teaches and how God has revealed himself to his creation and scripture. And so if he is Michael the Archangel, that means he hasn't eternally existed, right? So that's problematic. If Jesus, if Satan is a scapegoat, right, it didn't take an innocent, pure life to die for the sins of the world or to take the sins of the world. But to say Satan did it is off. And also, how do we obtain salvation? Is it by grace through faith alone, not about works, right? And so essentially

if things that you're saying has some legitimacy and sadly I think it does you know that's a work-based salvation and so key fundamental you know essentials of the gospel I see like clear contradictions in the stuff that you presented in the Christian faith and I just want to just say to those who might be watching who might be you know a part of the SDA religion we don't want to you know just do an unfair podcast video or whatever we're seeing you guys who responds video of the video that we did and we would love to have you on and have a conversation with us. If there are SDA pastors, SDA, you know, apologists who want to defend the SDA worldview, we can, you know, we can fly a brother Thunderdown, you know, from Jamaica, get past a Dr.

Eric Mason in the room and fly a couple of you guys down and we can have like a real respectful, dignifying conversation. So you can have a proper chance to defend your work. worldview, I want to extend that invitation to you. And so, like I said, this wasn't to tear anybody's faith down, you know, Jesus is not Michael the archangel. He brews one, you know, it says, for which of God's angels did he ever say, you are my son? Today, I have begotten you. And again, I should be to him a father and he should be to him a son. And again, when he brings his first born into the world, he says, let all God's angels worship him. He gives his menaces, he gives his angels wins and

his menaces of a flame of fire. But of the son, he says, your throne, oh, God is forever or never. and the sceptor of your rightness is the sceptor of your kingdom. Later on in verse 10 in that passage, he says, then the Father says that Jesus created the heavens and the earth by the work of his hands. And so we see there clearly that Jesus is not Michael the archangel, but he's the eternal son of God.

He eternally existed with his father. He has no beginning. Revelation 22, verse 12 says he's coming son, breaking the recompense to repay all those for what they have done, for he is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. And so if you believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel, in any way you don't believe in the true God of Scripture.

And because of that, we want to love you. We want to point you to truth and lead you to the right doctrine. So if you want to have a conversation with us, let us know. We will love, love to have a conversation with y'all. Yeah. Anything you want to add? Man, again, this was done in love. And, you know, I know, I don't know when this is going to post,

but, you know, I would just love to really, I would, I would employ you to not, just get defensive because I think that's a natural tendency with something, particularly those of you who grew up in SDA as a faith. And I would encourage you to investigate what Brother Elsie is saying, Brother Thunder is doing in the documentation that he said, because I've seen some people in the comments said, this is what we believe. And so I would, this is too big in my mind to just act like it's not real. And so my encouragement would be dig into it for yourself, go back through this video,

ask your leaders some very pointed questions, and don't let anyone get away with brushing it off, but dealing with it head on. Because, again, the whole reason why Preston put this on and asked me to come on, was to be able to have a viable dialogue based on the pushback that happened through the video. So much love to you and hope this is helpful for you.

And I just want to quickly say, you know, like I said, you've probably seen me, probably not, you've probably seen me, you know, engaging with other religions. And when other religions, you know, come against the Christian faith, I don't get angry. I don't get mad. I don't get offended because I know what I believe is true. And I know it can be disheartening,

especially if you follow Dr. Eric Mason or me and Jackie and you think that all they think our religion is, wrong. I know it can be offensive, but I don't think that we should be offended. I think that we should all want to be humble in trying to figure out what the truth is. And so that's what we're trying to do. We're not trying to pick on anybody. We're just trying to get to the bottom of what we feel like the truth is. And so we more than likely it would be other videos on this. And so hopefully, you know, you guys to tune in and keep watching the channel. So thank you. Brother Thunder. Thank you for all the information. And we'll see y'all at a lot of time. Peace.

With the Parrys is produced by the Pears with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, Abishai Perez, and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop and Music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.