With The Perrys - Jesus and Therapy

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

The concept of Christians getting therapy shouldn't be a big deal but for some, it is. Sometimes it is said that "If Jesus is enough, then we don't need therapy." But what if therapy is a gift from Jesus? What if it's a means to help all people heal mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Listen as Jackie and Preston discuss their own experiences with therapy and why they believe every Christian should get some. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome Saints and Ains to the third season of 30 Minutes with the Barry. What's up, y'all? It's been such a long time. Yeah, man. Welcome back, Jackie. Hey, Preston. We're not in a closet anymore. We're not in a closet anymore.

Sitting on the floor, Indian style. Smelling our old drocks. Who? Jocks. What is that? That's what I've heard people say, I've heard people say, refer to draws his jocks. oh i don't i can't relate to that uh but at your time you're you're yorks i suppose so um it's been a it's been a lot that has happened since our last episode for one we've had an entire baby you know go it sneaks it went away okay we've had an entire baby because the last episode you know my my feet were going dead they was getting all tingling because i i i just didn't

just couldn't stretch them out because the stomach was so big. We're inside of a panorama. She means pandemic. I don't know why she keeps calling a panorama. No, I mean, we're going through a panchetta. You know, like, this has been a long paedia light, but we finally are getting, like, vaccines and things like that. Yeah, man.

And so I'm so glad that this proselytitis is about to be over. Oh, my goodness, you was a hot mess. See, here's the thing. People have been on us about, we're going to the next 30 minutes. Paris. When is the next podcast? When do you got? And we literally went through so much. I think the main thing was the baby.

Yeah. You're tired. When I tell you Jackie back was breaking down. She couldn't get off the couch right. And then when we had our, you know, our last baby, Sagey Pagey, she came and she cried more than every

human being in the world. Combined. And so she's a very needy baby. And so, I was sorry for allowing y'all me i'm not sorry at all well i'm kind of sorry they they waited a long time but oh yeah we did i had to i had to write a whole book yeah it's just been a lot but we're here yeah you know and so i that's why we want to you know start this first episode with by talking about a thing that's kind of a thing which is jesus and therapy i want my putty today jesus and therapy

yeah because you know we we've we've tried to communicate the necessity of therapy and the goodness of therapy you did but it's a black man permission to feel but like therapy is still like a topic that has a lot of questions around it what like you know people think it's it's weird or some people think it's ungodly like you don't you're not trusting god if you you go to therapy so yeah I was in um Lennox mall and I was walking out and I had this this hoodie on actually and um some you know older men saw me and uh he was like hey let me hey hey Hey, come here, you're man. He was like, if you got Jesus, you don't need therapy.

Yeah, he thought that was profound. He said it like, like he dropped the mic, like, boom. You know what I'm saying? Jesus is enough. Jesus is enough. And I was real tired of day. And I came home and told you this, but I was real tired of the day. I said, I bet it's five people in your life that wish you went to therapy.

Peach. That's how you get back at people in a godly way. And maybe I should have talked to him more. No, but it's true. Yeah, but it is true. And so a lot of people do have, yeah, a problem with Jesus in therapy or Jesus plus therapy or whatever. A lot of people have a problem with it. I think that the idea for a lot of people is they think that therapy is a replacement for Jesus.

Yes. Which, but I think the irony in that is that we don't look at any other like, like, mental health or even bodily health, like help in that way. You know, like, I don't think Jesus is less than when I take a Tylenol. Right. I don't think Jesus is my doctor. I don't think Jesus is less than when I eat breakfast. I don't think Jesus is less than when I got married.

Yeah. Like, like, just because, I don't know what I'm saying. Like, Jesus is our all in all. Jesus is everything. But Jesus is also giving us good gifts to. enjoy and to assist us to love him better. Yeah. And so I need food just as much as I need Jesus.

Yeah, but also I don't think that we, I don't think that people who have that framework or this, that type of ideology has truly processed that we're thinking because I think that if you look at it, Jesus is essentially all we need. But for, since the beginning of the time, he's always used people. Correct. To communicate his, his, his, his, his, his, his, his will to communicate. his purpose for one another. So, like, for example, let me just say this for quick.

You know, Jesus is the great shepherd. Right. We don't go to church and say, Pastor, Jesus is my shepherd. I don't need no pastor. I don't need a pastor. I got my God. It's like, so in the same way, you know, why can't he use therapists in the same way did he use pastor?

I agree, you know. Of course, they, you know, a pastor is an officer. a position in the church, but you get what I'm trying to say. Like at the same time, God can use. Well, they might say, you know, the Bible establishes a precedent for you needing to be submitted to,

like a local church, right? They might say, you know, the Bible doesn't say that we have to or need counseling. But I do think that when the scripture says, like, in a multitude of counselors, there is safety. Proverbs 1114. There's a real sense in which that can apply to therapy.

Yeah. Because it's saying, you know, my brain and my trauma is causing me to think in ways that are unhealthy. And I need somebody who is trained in the area of mental health to help me process this stuff in a healthy way and redirect me to the place that I need to go, you know? And so I think ultimately that's what therapy, good therapy should do is make you aware. of the places that you low-key need Jesus. And like therapists don't replace the Lord. A good therapist pushes you to the Lord. Absolutely.

That's a word. Let me ask you this. When did you, when, before you started going to therapy, what did you think about it? Like, did you have some hang-ups? Did you have off-flight perceptions? Were you afraid of it? Yeah, so for years, I got to give kudos to you

because you're the one who said, Preston, you need therapy. Amen. Preston. You need therapy. Amen. You need therapy. Amen. Babe, what are we going to eat today?

We're going to eat at such and such, but guess what? You need therapy. And it's like, okay. I guess you just think that I'm broken. You are. You are. And so we're all broken, but I was like, I was just tired of you saying that I need therapy. And so I think what I thought about therapy was sitting down in a room and letting someone

pick apart your brain to dissect your life and tell you how messed up you are. Got it. And I also thought that it was low-key, kind of before I married you, for crazy people. Well, yeah, a lot of people think that. Yeah. I think people are beginning to see that it's actually for everybody. Yeah, it is.

Yeah. But then when I, you know, as I started to grow just in my maturity and whatever, I still didn't think it was crazy people, but I also thought it was just, oh, let me just, you know, sit and help somebody, you know, pick apart my brain. And when I went to therapy, I realized, no, it's a lot more than that. Yeah. It definitely is. And so I just, you know, I had my hesitation of going to therapy just because I just, like, I don't, one, I don't trust people easily.

And so to sit down with a stranger and to tell them my deepest fears, it was just, it wasn't appealing to me. Yeah, I think I didn't, I didn't, um, really. realized my need for therapy until me and you started to date because what was happening was when you started to pursue me I started to respond to you in ways that were mean that were crass yeah they were but it it felt like it felt like I was responding to you in a way that I did not try to you know what I'm saying and didn't have a you didn't have a voice for you didn't I always said why you responded and I didn't know I just I just was emotionally shut down I didn't know I was emotionally shut down I didn't know why I was emotionally shut down and I didn't know how not to

be yeah and so to me it was like oh I need somebody to to talk me through this and so like my first experience with therapy I was we started dating when I was what 22 yeah and my therapist started to to show me it's just like no Preston's pursuit of you feel it feels like something you can't control and so your body and your emotions and your brain is in like fight or flight mode so that's what's happening is you're you're terrified and you don't know anything else but to do you don't know what else to do except to fight and that's what therapy like did for me where I was like oh I'm scared I now know what's happening here and I now know what to give to to help me not be afraid anymore.

Yeah, so what you're saying is the therapist didn't help, you know, fix the situation. Oh, no. She just made you aware of the situation. Yeah. And because she was aware of the situation, you know how to deal with me. Yeah. I think for me, you went to therapy way before. Way, way, way.

Way. Way before I did. And so you were, yeah, you were a believer of it way before I was. And I was like, man, it's helping her. And I think a lot of times we can be a little just self-righteous in our. assessment of ourselves especially when somebody else is getting therapy oh yeah she yeah she yeah she definitely need therapy it's going to help us it's like yeah and it's just like it was a humbling it was a humbling experience for you to come back to from therapy and you to tell me oh i'm getting better but you need it too

mm-hmm um and so i think one of the things that i i had to realize is that man this therapist like you just said was it's it's god isn't going to use this this therapy to help fix me essentially he is the one is going to bring the healing. He is the one of, you know what I'm saying? But he's just going to use this person to allow me to be aware of the things that I need. But I think to that point, I was aware. I think what therapy has helped me to do is also be aware of other people's brokenness. Yeah.

Like going through therapy has really helped me in ministry a ton where I see, I see, I'm able to, like, see the root of people's behavior. That it's, it's usually not just sinful. is that this person is responding out of a trauma that's manifesting in a sinful way. Absolutely. And so even with you, it was I was seeing certain behavior in certain patterns that was like, huh, something happened. Something is with that. Yeah.

That Preston is unaware of and so used to that he doesn't even see it as problematic anymore. Yeah. And so to me it was like, I can't fix that as your wife. You need a doctor. You know? Yeah, yeah. And that was a scary thing because I think in a lot of ways what we're talking about is a thing in therapy called triggers that they teach you about. Yeah.

And my therapist helped me to identify the things in my life that triggered me that I didn't even realize that triggered me. You give us an example. And so, for example, you know, I grew up in a very hostile environment where cats was just always fighting, shooting at each other, you know, going to jail. I witnessed a lot of stuff And so when I was in sixth grade I witnessed my first murder And I witnessed it Me and my friend Nick

We were on our bike and we witnessed a man Shoot his wife and then kill himself And I just remember When I was Yeah like in the He did it right across the street from my house And so when the police and everybody came The ambulance came or whatever

Everybody kind of sat in my yard stood in my yard or whatever to watch, you know, the forensic people would be out there and all of that. And I remember it was a summer day. It was in June, and it was really sunny outside. And all of a sudden it kind of got dark. Clouds came and started raining. And this lady that lived a couple of houses down for me,

and she said, look at that. It wasn't even supposed to rain today. God is crying for what had happened. And all of these people started crying when she said that. And it was deep because when I first saw, the murder, my brain didn't even know how to process what happened. Right. And so I was...

Trauma? It was trauma, right? And so I don't necessarily recall being scared. I don't necessarily recall being, like, I had to run. Like, I wrote in a poem, A Beautiful Hoodtail, like, I literally couldn't move when it happened. And so my mind was trying to process what happened. And so when I saw all of these adults started to show emotion, that clicked, something clicked inside of me that I'm like I should be emotional.

They didn't even see the murder a lot of them. Me and Nick saw the murder. Right. And and you know, and so what what I saw throughout the years was when I went to, you know, so backtrack, when I went to therapy, she began to just walk through all the trauma that I experienced in my life because when I first went to therapy, she noticed that I had, you know, PTSD. Which you thought was like an Italian. dish or something.

I was like, what? What I got? I got pepperoni. Right. What? What? Am I going to die? What is this?

No, she said, you have, you know, post-traumatic stress, you know? And so she begins to start walking me through my trauma or whatever. And we got to this moment in sixth grade when I saw this murder. And she said, what happens when you think about the murder? or what happens that make you think about that murder? And I was like, for some reason, I realized that every time it's sunny outside and it starts to rain just randomly,

like that day, I immediately get depressed. And I immediately feel this same sadness. And I remember one day I was, you were gone, and I was with Eden in autumn, this is way before we had sage, and I was, you know, with the kids. And it started to rain. I just got depressed and I was just in this stupor and I couldn't identify why or whatever.

And she helped me to see like, no, that's a trigger. Right. You know, you have things that happen in your life that pops up that make you feel a certain way. And it affects your physical health. It affects your mental health. And if it does, it's going to affect how you parent. It's going to affect how you love your wife. And so one of the things that she showed me is that, no, we want you to be emotionally aware of these triggers.

so you could be emotionally healthy, not just for yourself, but for your family, and then thirdly, for your ministry. Amen. And so I had to realize that, like, this woman, God is going to use this woman to help me recognize the things that I need to be aware of so I can be a better Christian. Yeah. I've had about, I think, four therapists over the years, just because we've moved, you know, to different cities. And I remember talking to, one, about the content of my counseling and things. is usually centered around, you know, my sexual trauma in particular. And I remember my therapist asking the question of, she said, do you remember your dad

hugging you? Like in your, like when, when you can recall like the first time being touched by a man, is it your father? And I was like, nah, I don't, I don't remember him hugging me. And she was like, but you can remember, you know, your molestation. when you were like five or six. And I said, yeah. And she was like, don't you think that you've been impacted by the fact

that the first man to touch you was your abuser? Wow. That's deep. I was like, dad. So then when Preston touches me, my response, it doesn't feel safe because I wasn't introduced to like physical touch by a man that was safe. Yeah.

And so those types of things is like, whoa, I'm over here thinking I'm just weird. you know and that like touches make me feel strange but it's like no my body is responding to the fact that like touch was abusive at the hands of a man and this is the reason why therapy is so important is because I think if we know that there's so much spiritual implications of you know to speak into how we love one another as brothers and sisters in Christ but there is a psychological aspect of us loving one another right and Because one of the things I learned in therapy is that not only does a man teach a woman what to expect from other men in the world, this is your first representation of what manhood is in a lot of ways. It's vice versa for women. For, you know, women. Women are the first representation to a young boy or a young girl of how to engage with other women. Women, yeah. You know, and so a lot of my mommy hurt played a factor in, you know, how I see, you know, I think we're going to talk about that on another podcast or whatever.

But just, man, like, I think that if we realize that therapy helps us to see how society in our life has taught us to view the world. And sometimes, you know, we can't even love our brothers and sisters in Christ because of our trauma. Yeah. It just helps us be better by the brothers and sisters in Christ. Yeah. Like, for me, therapy has not made me whole. Yeah. But it's definitely made me aware.

And I feel like it's God has used it as a conduit of healing. Yeah. Because being aware of your brokenness essentially can make you whole. Yeah. I mean, you can't. Because there's a kind of blindness that I think we all live with where we don't. know why we do the things we do we don't know why we think the things we think you you have you have you got cats that are like you know uh super insecure or always dealing with comparison and you think it's just a sin

problem and it is yeah there's a there's an element of you know uh pride associated with that but it's also you might have been uh raised in a family where you and your sister's gifts were always compared and so now you go through life having a field day on instagram because you can't seem to just enjoy what other people have what other people have without comparing it to what you have why because now we need to uproot the fact that your identity was always set against someone else's uh things and giftings and so this so is so much yeah i knew i knew a person who who in chicago who couldn't really flourish in church community because they were always so defensive and a lot of the church leaders tried to help this person walk through and it wasn't that this person was a therapy but

this person realized that like, no, I was attacked in my home so much. Yeah. The only time I can really, really function or feel safe is to defend myself. Yeah. Even when people are not attacking me, you know what I'm saying? And so like, yeah, like. Now what would you say, though, because I feel like it's easier to convince a woman that she should go to therapy?

Me? Like, y'all are the different breed. And so I guess what do you say to me? men who are like, nah, bro. Like, I'm not fend to sit on no couch with my, like, legs crossed telling this lady about when I was six and my daddy didn't say, I love you. That's a good question. I think that in a lot of ways, men are afraid to feel. I think that.

Where'd you hear that? My poem, who gives a black man permission to feel. I think, yeah, I think that men are afraid to feel. I think that to process our emotions is essentially saying you want me to be weak. Right? So therapy feels like you want to tap into some weaknesses.

Yeah, or you want me to be vulnerable. I remember the first time that I sat down and talked to a therapist, I was just really afraid. And I think jokingly I said to her, I was like, you're probably going to try to make me cry doing these sessions, but I'm not. And she was just like, well,

that's something that you got to rest of doing your own, And I feel she was like I find it very funny That's the first thing you thought about And I was like ooh Don't be coming at my head You know what I'm saying And so I had this I had this fear in the back of my mind

That man she wants me to be You know She wants me to be broken You know She wants me to be open and vulnerable And I think that that That you know Makes a lot of men afraid

Yeah Yeah and I also think that Especially for men that have families, I think they're really afraid of looking weak before their wives and their children. They want us, they want to be viewed. We want to be viewed like superhero. But yeah, we can't be superheroes if we don't deal with our trauma. You can't because, you know, pride is never healthy. And so I feel like the better route is always, what do I need to do to make sure that I can show up in the way that God wants me to?

and I think our mental health is a part of that. Our mental health really does matter because we have pastors and leaders of church. Church is committing suicide all because they don't have somewhere to go and say, you know what, I'm sad. I'm in a really dark place. I have a lot of burdens.

Like there is something godly and good about being able to say, I just need help. Yeah, and I wish people understood that because I think for people who don't like therapy it if you if you really look at it it goes and it speaks to so it speaks so much to how we were created we were created to express ourselves like having all of this trauma and having all of this stuff inside of us was not how God intended intended for to be but also to express yourself to people who don't know what to do with what you

express can also be a lot of ways just as damaging. Explain that. So I think a lot of times people don't want to express their trauma because they don't know how they're afraid of how you're going to deal with what they express. Oh yeah. The shame of things. Yeah. Or are you going to handle what I say with care?

Yeah. And so I think the church plays a role in supporting and, you know, but a lot of times things in our lives are nuanced and complicated. And so to talk to somebody who's trained, you know, and trustworthy. And trustworthy. Yeah, because I think that just that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's the question of where do I go to find good therapists and good counselors. And I, for me, it's always been going to counselors and therapists that are recommended. Yeah.

You know, like my friends that are in therapy who I see, you know, are becoming better and all that type of stuff. It's like, where do you go? You know, and for me, I've always preferred, it's not a law, but I've preferred therapists with the spirit that are Christians. Yeah. Because there is something unique about sitting across the room from somebody who not only has the education about mental health, but who has the spirit. And so they're led by the spirit in how they apply what they know. Yeah. And that's just different.

Because that was our experience with our therapist. Oh, all of my therapists. Yeah. It's like, oh, the Lord is here. Well, I've only had one. Oh, yeah. You know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, well versed in this therapy. All of my therapists.

All nine of them. They were great. I mean, they spoke to this and. I got issues, child. You know, but yeah, that, that was, you know, because the therapist that we have, you know, that we went to together, you know, she was an older lady, been serving the Lord for 40 years. Yeah. And she was just so motherly. Yeah, she was.

And caring, you know what I'm saying, and discerning. But at the same time, she was like, you know, I remember one time I was sitting there on a chair, she said, pressing your posture has changed. Mm-hmm. You're closing up. Mm-hmm. Like, you see that? You see me.

You see everything. You see me. I sat down at my therapist office in Chicago, and she was like, she said, are you okay? I said why she said your leg is shaking your jaws clenched your hands aren't relaxed she was like your your body is telling on you

and it made me mad no that's what she said it made me mad because it's like I ain't even said nothing and you know I'm going through something you know what I was just like oh you're not supposed to know all that that was back in the day and I remember you being more

more open yes our marriage went on and how it helped us It really did help. I've been getting to like praise the Lord for therapy. Thank you for therapy, Lord. It's really helping Jackie. We're going to be better. And God was like, you need it too, you know.

Hello. Well, I guess this is my question for you, but how has therapy helped you as a wife, a mother, Christian, holistically? Looking back from when you first started to go to therapy. I'm nicer. You are. I'm way nicer. Oh, bless you.

Oh, we bless you on today. Wow. I'm a nicer person. And that's because I don't have as many defenses, you know. I was, I was, I was, I was mean because I've been, I've been abused emotionally. I was, in third grade, I was bullied. I was made fun of. I was abandoned my, my dad.

I was rejected. And so I had to walk through life with my guard up as a way to protect myself. And does that mean that I still don't have my guard up? I definitely do. But I don't depend on that to protect me as much as I used to. I depend on the Lord. And so I think that's one is I'm just a nicer person. I think another thing is I'm more perceptive of like, I guess, myself and the things that

bother me. I don't know. I just, I feel all around just a, I'm just more lovely. I guess that's the best way I could put it. And also what I hear you saying is you're more free. Yes. That's what it is. Yeah, you're just more free to be the person that God means you to be. Because the thing is, I have this theory. I might have shared this on the podcast before. And my theory is, is that this, God has given us our personalities, right? Like, that's, that's who we all. And, you know, that's who we and who we always always will be. A part of the problem with sin is that sin has manipulated our personalities and the traumas and the sins against us has caused us to kind of like be these people

that God never intended. But sometimes we need to sift through who, like what is, like who is the person that God made me to be and who is the person that sin has made me to be. And I think, I think a part of therapy is, like getting all that nastiness off of us so we could just be ourselves. And by being ourselves, I don't mean the sinful us. I mean the sanctified free us, you know? Yeah, like a filtering system.

Like, man, it's so much trauma because, you know, God originally never intended for us to live in this fallen world. No. And I tell people all the time that if you have lived in this fallen world, you are a victim of trauma. Absolutely. We've all been traumatized. in one way or another.

And so sin is traumatic. Yeah, sin is traumatic. And so like, of course, you know, you're seen as a real thing, but it's because of, you know, our trauma that causes a lot of our sin. You know what I'm saying? It helps us respond to people in certain ways that we shouldn't. And so, yeah, I'm a great, you know, witness of your growth in that because in the beginning it was rough. Yeah. But when you are a free person and you're not mean or defensive, you're a very pleasant person to be around.

Thank you. In therapy, you know, I'm so glad that. I'm getting better. I'm so glad you were to therapy. I'm not all the way there. I want to shout right now. You don't know how. But that's okay.

You didn't have to put me out there like that. But I did. And guess what? You're safe in Christ. Right, I'm saying. You're seen in your love. My non shout himself. Hello.

So, yeah. Man y'all like we got we got problems go to therapy and that don't be ashamed of that Be proud of it to say like in my weaknesses I am made strong I will boast about my weaknesses and that is all right because one day Guess what we gonna be in glory all glorified and all free from all this nastiness But in the meantime in between time God has provided his church with cats and resources to help us think and renew our minds in a way that glorifies God so that we can love him and love our neighbor well.

And for the person out there, like I said, who has their concerns about therapy, the questions about therapy, I think my encouragement and my challenge to Christians is to not limit God. I think that a lot of times when we hear people say they're going to therapy, we can think that they're limiting God because they're using us quote-unquote outside source to get better hold, you know. But I think in a lot of ways, we're the ones who are limiting God

when we think that God can not use anything. Well. To help us, you know what I'm saying? And so a lot of our pastors are able to be the pastors that they are because they have a person that they can sit down and process their emotions and their feelings with. So God uses, he can use anything. And I think God has used and will continue to use therapy for the sanctification of his body.

So he encouraged, saints. Amen. Go get some help. Go get some help now. Bye. Peace.