With The Perrys - Let’s Talk About Deconstruction

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Nobody “deconstructs” from Christianity in a day. Deconstruction is not an immediate decision but a process in which someone questions, dissects and assesses what they believe. But what some people are calling deconstruction is actually heresy and false teaching. There’s a thoughtful and Biblical way to evaluate your faith, so let’s talk about it. Pastor Jerome Gay, Jr. joins the Perrys to discuss the seven reasons people deconstruct, the importance of critical thinking and apologetics, and the compassion required for walking with someone who is deconstructing. Connect with Pastor Jerome Gay, Jr. https://www.instagram.com/jeromegay https://jeromegayjr.com/ Check out Pastor Jerome’s book, “Church Hurt: Holding the Church Accountable and Helping Hurt People Heal” – https://www.amazon.com/Church-Hurt-Holding-Accountable-Helping/dp/1952602548 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://meetfabric.com/perry — Help protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. You could be offered coverage instantly with NO health exam required! https://weekendtoremember.com — Register now with code PERRY to save $100 on any getaway! Https://fieldofgreens.com — Get 20% off with promo code PERRY Scripture References: Romans 3:15 Romans 1:22 1 John 4:7-8 John 14:15 1 Corinthians 6:18 Matthew 16:24 Ephesians 6 Exodus 21:16 Genesis 3 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey St. Tena. How are you? Let's hope you all stuff. I'm getting tired. What up? What up with y'all? I'm getting tired. Because, you know, something's been happy.

I'm going to be real, honest, be real transparent. So life has been just stressful on many levels. And so I've been taking sleep medicine to go to sleep and to stay sleep. And I was like, you know, I don't want to be them like sleep medicine addicts. So I was like, let me like get off of it. And now. I need them sleep medicines. Every day.

I've been waking up at like four or five, but here's the crazy part. Every time I wake up, it's people and things to pray for. And I'm not even trying to think about it. It's just like I'm just seeing and hearing. And I was driving the kids' school. I was like, Lord, I wonder if you accept those prayers. Because it'd be on some help them, God. And then I fall asleep and give them vision, father.

Holy Spirit would be like, um, cinch you up. Yeah, but I was like, like, do you want me to get up? Or like, is it acceptable in your sight to kind of like toss it your way and then, like, those off again? Do you think that? Do you think he accepts that? Absolutely. I don't know if he does. No, seriously, like, literally Hebrews 4 lets us know that we have a great high priest who sympathizes our weakness. I mean, like, we have a high priest who, like, literally became human.

He said watching pray, too. Like, why y'all phone sleep? But what I'm saying is we serve a God who knows what it feels like to be sleepy. Like, if you really think about that, like, Buddha can't say that. Like the Mormons can't say that. Like we serve a God who got sleepy. So he empathizes with the fact that you was like, all I got is help him, Lord.

He's so holy. When you look at the priesthood, just the way they was doing the incense, it was like perfect and stuff. I mean, he did rebuke the disciples and the guard for falling asleep. I mean, but he was about to die. He was like, yo, they're about to come get me.

Passed Jerome Gate. You tell me, does God accept our little raggedy in between sleep prayers? I would say he does. Why? Give us a theology. Romans 8 walks through three types of groanings. First are the groans of creation.

Then secondly are the groans of God's children. Then it's the groans of the comforter. And so the Holy Spirit is able to interpret even I jack the prayers by the time it gets to the Lord's ears, which is an anthropomorphism ascribing humanity, human aspects to the Lord. So he still heard it. He still heard your Lord help and pray. I think he did. Oh, okay.

I think he did. I don't got to get up then. Yeah. That's what you say to me. I can just. Because the way you sounding, you sounded like you didn't even have the ability to get up. When I literally, I'm literally,

I wake up and stuff is on my heart. And so I'm just like, it literally could, it's like, it could be a person. And it's like sin they need to repent of and pride they got that they don't know about. And I'm like, okay, so Lord helped them to see their pride and their sin.

And I literally turn over it because I want to go to sleep. now and then I'm woken back up with another scenario. Like, it's... And so, I don't know. Maybe Lord would you get up and walk around. I'm not doing that. And so I just, I want to say to everything... You ain't doing what you got to do.

Everybody who's being woken up in the middle of the night and you're tired by 2 p.m., I empathize. Jerome Gay. Welcome. Master Jerome Gay. I'll feel to call you doctor, but I was like, do you got PhD? No, no, no, do not. You look like you got a PhD. There's a lot going on in these doctors.

I do have a master's degree. What do you got a master's degree? You know, some people saying they're doctors. They're a doctor. Exactly. Exactly. So I am not a doctor at all. No, but just Christian, Christian theology and ethics.

Christian studies. That's dope, man. Pastor Jerome Gay has been, you know, a person that we've done ministry with. And you've done such great work the last, what, five, seven years I've known you. I actually just left your conference the other day. and Raleigh His Urban Reformation

Conference If you want a solid theological conference to go to next year go to the Urban Reformation

Conference at his church it was one of the most the most theologically dense but also

helpful and intentional conferences I've been a part of so thank you for being a part of it and what's the name

church vision church vision church we're in Raleigh North Carolina yeah Vision Church in Raleley

it was tight I think I I spoke at y'all Women's Sunday. You did. And what was like, I told you this in the office. I was like, I have never heard of a church that gives room

for the gifts, but in such an orderly way. Because you were expressing how y'all was going to have a worship night. And like y'all created a panthlet on some, like, if you have a word of knowledge, then this is how you go about it. We meet with the elders.

We're testing that prophecy. I love that. And I said, I'm actually they're doing the opposite of First Corinthians. It's right there in First Corinthians 14. Let's just do what it says. I love that. Do what it says. I just was like, you need to do a podcast about how to function in the, like, because y'all

aren't quenching the gifts. No. Because that seems to be the extremes. It's either we are like letting all of the gifts roam free, including their perversions. Right. Or we're quishing them, where the Holy Spirit has no room to do what he does. And so I just, I don't know. If y'all need a church, that's just orderly.

And y'all got a lot of men in there, too. If you're single, I'm playing. I'm not. No, no, I'm not. We want godly relationships. Amen. Yeah, there's a lot of men in your church. That's not a common.

Yeah, man. One of my closest disciples back in the day from years ago, I used to the disciple in Chicago, he ended up moving a rally, and he popped up, and I'm like, where you going? He's like, I'm going to this church. I was like, thank you, Lord, because he needed a good church and good, you know what I'm saying?

And so I'm just saying so, so many people who have found your church and how much it's been a blessing to them. It's really dope. So what are we talking about today, though? Okay. So deconstruction is like, I think it's a word or a phrase. It's not, I feel like the last five, six years is kind of been in the Christian lexicon. And so we want to define it.

We want to talk through it. And primarily we want to disciple y'all through it, you know, because there's a lot of people, particularly online are books that are being written, that what they're calling deconstruction is heresy and it's false teaching and it's leading you to hell. But then there is a thoughtful, I think, biblical, godly way to parse through what you should and shouldn't believe, what you should and shouldn't do. And if you want to call that deconstruction, okay. But let's define it according to the Bible so that we can actually walk wisely. So that's ultimately what we're trying. to do. So what, I guess, when were you introduced to the term and how, like, what meaning was

communicated with it? So to your point about five to six years ago, I saw the term being used a lot during the pandemic. So during the pandemic, people were confronted with not is God real, but the question became, is God good? My grandmother died and I had to do her funeral on Zoom. Wow. How is he good? Yeah. And so people begin to go through this process of assessing their faith.

And that's essentially what deconstruction is. It's not something that's immediate. It's a process to when you begin to dissect, question, and then assess your faith. And then from there, you determine if do you believe the scriptures or not. Now, if you read like Elisa Childers' book on Christian Deconstruction or what is deconstruction, they connected to postmodernism because, because people are not using the scriptures to your point. When they're not using the scriptures as part of their assessment,

then they're going to deconstruct to either atheism where they no longer believe, agnosticism, now they're saying they don't know if God is a he or she or an it, but they believe in spirituality. Or what we're seeing more now is a form of godliness, that Second Timothy, where I'm going to pick and choose what scriptures, I believe, but I'm going to use an esoteric hermeneutic, where I look within, and if it feels harmful, then I reject it, but if it makes me feel good, I accept it.

That's good. I have a question, though, what you just said, because I do think people did start to deconstruct their faith when things got hard, when things hit the fan, and how much of, how much is it that we as a church kind of teach people the theology of suffering that can help with them not even go through the process. Because what I hear, like, people deconstructing their faith because they had to do their grandmother's funeral on Zoom. It's like, do they not have an accurate depiction of suffering?

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And we can talk about the seven reasons people are deconstructing. But yeah, so, you know, we have to, for believers, we got to ask. you know, like, what Bible are you reading, right? And I don't want to say it in a pejorative way, but seriously. Like Jesus says, in this world you will have trouble. That proceeds, but I have overcome the world. Those who choose to live a godly lifestyle must endure persecution. If we suffer with him, we will reign with him.

Christ suffered. He endured the cross, scorning its shame. And so the founder of our faith suffered. So an aspect of Christ's likeness is suffering. So we have to get a biblical theology of suffering. Not that celebrates it, but Romans gives us a framework, Romans 3, where it says, you know, hey, not that we rejoice in, you don't rejoice in a miscarriage. Yeah.

Right? You don't rejoice in the suffering, but it says what does suffering produce. It tells us character, endurance, and hope. That's what we've rejoiced. And so we have to tell people, yes, you're going to go through. But the difference between the Christian and the atheist when they suffer is, is we know that our suffering is producing a deeper appreciation of the fruit of the spirit in us. Yeah, I yada, what are the sever?

I didn't know there were more, like, I didn't know there were all these reasons for deconstruction. Yeah, and so when you listen to what's being said, it pretty much boils down to seven, and then I'll follow your lead on how deep you want to go into these. And they all begin with us. I'm a pastor, so I love alliteration, right? So with Satan, how much power does he have? Suffering. Why did God allow it? And how could he send people who suffer to hell? Slavery does God side with the oppressor? Sexuality, does God hate LGBTQIA plus people? Sexism, does God hate or dislike women? Is Paul a misogynist? Spiritual abuse. Why do we keep platform?

tyrannical leaders, and then syncretism, why is there only one way? So those are the seven Ss when you begin to examine. If you listen to different people, it's going to fall under one of those seven categories as to why people are deconstructing. Oh, man. It's so much. I want to tackle four them. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm about three to four. Yeah, I'm about three to four, too.

I mean, you want to talk about secretism? Let's go. Because. Define it. Yeah, it's just this. Emerging of ideologies, ideas, world views that we feel like we can take this, take that, take that, and make our worldview almost. And I do think that a lot of heretics have popped up on the scene. And I think with the emergence of TikTok and threads and Instagram, of course, and Facebook, you have so many different ideologies out there.

Are there so many? Are thereetics on Facebook? Yes. There are? Yes. I don't be on there. Yeah. I didn't know.

It was my aunties now. Yeah. And so that's what syncretism is. It's just merging of so many ideas. And it's like we're trying to, and the gospel just doesn't work that way. And so talk about that. Talk about the danger of that. And talk about how we're led astray by really just false teachers who just want to, don't want to submit to it.

Yeah. So I like to use the analogy of a spiritual smoothie. That's what syncretism is. So I want the love of Christianity, but I don't want the lordship of Christ. So I'm going to leave that there. So I do want the love. So God is love and I put that in my smoothie. But I also want some sage because I want to smudge these spirits out.

So I want to put that in my smoothie. Then I want some African spirituality because Christianity is a white man religion. So I need to go back to my roots. So I want that in my spiritual smoothie. And so we begin to pick and choose these aspects. Let me throw my horoscope in there because I'm a Pisces. That's nasty. So you get all of these different aspects and you make this spiritual smoothie.

But if you just think critically, and this is why I, apologetics is so important, right? Because when we read 1st Peter 315, it lets us know, it says give a reason for the hope that lies within you. That's the what, yet do it with gentleness and respect. That's the how. So it lets us know that faith and reason can and should coexist. So if we do that as Christians, and we just begin to examine, we say, well, how are they leading to the same place when they're not on the same path? The Mormons believe in something known as progressive exaltation, that a man can become God. That's a different path. Is there is no assurance. So when you stand before Allah, you still don't know if you're getting in

or not. You have to hope that your good outweighs your bad. That's a different path. Christianity, we have assurance and we have eternal security. The Jehovah's Witness does not believe in the personhood of the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus uses masking and pronouns in John 14 and John 16, right? The Buddhist is trying to reach nirvana, and they want you to live without desire and reach this place of nothingness. So if you just put those four together, how can those be leading to the same place when they don't even have the same destination. So when people say that we want to bring these, how could there only be one way? I let people know that Jesus does not do spiritual polyamory. He is not doing an open relationship. So my wife and I can't agree celebrate 25 years.

It's me and her. There is not an open relationship. And most people aren't into polyamorous relationship, yet they want to tell the God of all creation that he can't be exclusive in a relationship with him. So it's actually duplicitous and hypocritical, but it's not, those paths do not all lead the same way. Wow. Even if we just look at it critically, it does not make logical sense, even if you're not a Christian.

That's so good. So how would syncretism and deconstruction relate? Well, because we're making the claim, and we got to own it, and we don't run from it, we're making a claim that there's only one way. And so I tell Christians all the time, if we're going to make the claim that there's one way, there's one book,

and there's one path for 9 billion people, we need to be able to defend it. And so the issue with deconstructing is to say, well, who they think of relativism. Well, truth should change. Truth cannot be absolute. They use the example of, well, what about that person that lives in the boondocks in this place? What about that person? How could they go to hell?

Or how could they, they, they're only a Christian because of America? And so they have all these different views. And so they say, well, because Christians claim exclusivity, this cannot be a faith because it's not tolerant or inclusive enough. So I'm going to deconstruct away from Christianity because I don't like the idea of exclusivity. Yeah. That's good.

I've often talked about that at your conference. It's a pluralistic society. This society that says every worldview, every ideology is equally valid just as long as you respect one another. Yeah. But it's just like, no, like for the person who stands on their worldview, what they're essentially saying is that the Christian worldview is wrong. And so you can now properly refute the Christian worldview if you don't do to the Christian,

which you claim the Christian is doing it. into you say, you're wrong and I'm right. And so that just also points that there is an absolute truth. And that's the reason why I love that you said, we have to be able to defend it. Yeah. Because if we don't, if we don't know how to defend it, we make these heretics who is trying to preach that we can have this smoothie with all these world views. Yeah, yeah. It makes it, makes them seem, seem right. Yeah, and that's what I call deconstructionist duplicity is they, the claim they're against Christian supremacy, right? because we claim exclusivity and we claim eternal security and we claim to have absolute truth,

which, again, we own and we don't run away from. But they're presenting their view saying their view is better. So the duplicitous aspect of their view is you're claiming to see more clear than we do. So you're actually claiming the same supremacy that you're accusing us up. And you just think your view is more inclusive and tolerant. But you're doing the very thing that you complain about Christians doing. You're doing that to us. That reminds me at one time.

I don't know who was sharing about this, where they were talking about people who said that they won't teach their children any particular religion because they don't want to indoctrinate their children. The world will. And it's like, no, but even that position is an indoctrination. Exactly.

So, like, you're still creating a framework and a perspective for how you believe your child should move through life, which is like free form or whatever. And I was just like, oh, like, we. That's so good. We all are kind of innately hypocrites. Yeah. Yeah.

It's such, like, every time somebody attack the Christian worldview online, I'm like, they don't see how hypocritical they're being. No. You know what I'm saying? Because to attack the Christian worldview is to say, y'all are wrong and I'm right. And so if there is no absolute truth, if all truth is subjective, you have no real reason to be mad at anybody. Exactly.

Right. It's Romans one. It's this, where is it at? Yeah, somewhere in Romans one where he talks about how they exchange the truth for a lie and they think themselves wise. It's like it is this belief that my perception of how life should be lived and how God should exist is in fact wisdom. And it's only through scripture the revelation of the Holy Spirit that one realizes that it's other foolishness. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

And I say that sympathetically. Okay. You want to talk about any other, other assets, spiritual abuse? I think. What should you say to your back? I think. It was really dope to see so many married couples from around the country coming together to talk about their problems, but also the different age groups.

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Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I think there's a lot of people who tried to be straight or tried not to lust or tried to be holy. Like even Paul goes as far as to put to death whatever's earthly in you. And you're like, well, how do I take out the feelings and the temptations and the desires? And I think the attempt to do so feels like a failure where it's like, oh, I have to do away with this faith because it did not give me what it promised, was freedom. And so I think, I don't know, I think shame is an underlying thing that should be explored more. That could be another, that's shame. I agree. I definitely agree with that because

we have to admit that the church has allowed the heterosexual fornicating drummer because of his talent, but then shunned the homosexual unless he could sing and exploited his talent. And so when you have that type of environment. And I say this, like, there are some aspects of the deconstructionist critique of Christianity that are accurate. But they have to stop broad-stroking the entire church and saying all churches that are that way as opposed to willing it down to their particular experience in the church. So that is something we need to, which is, again, which is why spiritual abuse is one of those

essence. Those usually go hand in hand. Like I do want to wrestle. I am, hey, I have these desires. Help me figure this out as opposed to immediately sending me to hell and not having a discussion with me. Yeah, that's good. I guess what is your, like even as a pastor, have you had experience with people deconstructing because of that one category? And what did that look like?

Yeah, it looked like a lot. Sometimes, you know, I have to keep anonymity, but, you know, parents coming to me, you know, about their children. And so we go right at it in terms of having the discussion about it. And I have some success, well, what I'll call success stories as well. So our approach has been we are welcoming but not affirming. So what does that mean? It's like, can a gay couple come to our church? Absolutely.

Because they're going to get the gospel at our church. They're going to get community. They're going to see the fruit of the spirit display, not perfectly. But so we're like, hey, you're welcome. You're welcome to come here. but we're not affirming of the lifestyle of any heterosexual or homosexual sin, and we want to equally give the smoke on both and not be heavy-handed on one. Now, back to your question, I'm sorry, what it looks like is we want to enter into that person's pain and ask some questions.

And we want to explain that your feelings are real, but they're not always right. Your feelings are engaged, but they're not a good guide. Our feelings, even heterosexual, we've had feelings for toxic people because they look good or because they have a way, they're charismatic. And so I wanted to help people to go through that. But then what does it mean to cast down imaginations and thoughts? To if you're claiming to be a Christian, this is an aspect of spiritual warfare. So now how do we fight?

And then coming back to how are we defining love? That's good. So like the culture is saying, this is the phrase that's been out recently is, I'm choosing to lead with love. And so the question for us is what's love and how are we defining it? And so I want to tell people, for the Christian, love is three things. Number one, love is a person. First John 4, 7 and 8, God is love.

Number two, love is a choice. Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commands, John 14, 15. And third, this gets us back to the gospel. You know all the addresses. And then the third thing, love is in action, which gets us back. to the gospel. God demonstrated his love and why we were yet sinners Christ died for us, Romans 5'8. Because the world tells us love is a feeling. Exactly. And if you notice, in that definition, it's not a feeling because our feelings are fickle. Love is a person,

love is a choice, love is an action. So for the Christian, since God is love, then he defines love and he determines how and who we love. That's beautiful. And that's the issue is, which is why they have to demean the word of God, because there are certain scriptures, they just can't wrestle with. So they'll say either they don't like Paul or they want to question the veracity of the scriptures. So we got to have a biblical definition of love. But I do think it's important that we present this and approach people with curiosity and

compassion, not assumption. That's really good. Folks like, I don't know if you're actually. No, I would just affirm it with my brother said. I felt in my spirit. Folks like Matthew Binds and others have attempted to make the argument that to consider homosexual activity as sin

is in it of itself unloving therefore proving that even that theology must be wrong or false and it's this idea that if what I'm communicating is harmful then what I'm communicating isn't Christian I have a response but I'm curious to know what you would say to that

yeah so this is one of the things about so it's again more alliteration right So deconstruction has four things. Number one is assessment. So they assess what they believe. The second A is they then adapt. Now the question is how that adaptation is taking place. Am I adapting the scriptures to me or am I adapting to the scriptures?

That leads to the third A. They're going to adopt. And so what you find with a lot of deconstructions Christians is they started off engaging other deconstructionists, but then they begin to indulge in. into the ideology, right? And so after you go from that adoption, you're going to then abolish the scriptures. When you abolish the scriptures, which is that fourth A, now it's, we're going to redefine sin as harm. And so they're going to say, what's really harmful is thinking that something is wrong with you. That's what's harmful. And so because that's the premise, so we

disagree with their premise and their presupposition, we got to first unpack that and say, well, what about you harming me with your position? See, we have to show them the harm only goes one way from their perspective. It's only the Christian doing the harm. The Christians aren't being harmed. And so we got to put a mirror because their presupposition is not defining sin or harm biblically, but defining it emotionally. Does that make sense, Jeff?

Yeah. You're seeing a lot of that now. That Christian theology, Christian ideology is harmful, right? I've seen this one particular guy on the internet saying, is the homosexual community doing anything harmful to anybody? So aren't Christians the one harming? And I'm like, that logic is so flawed. But it is this notion being kind of like taught

that Christians are just, the Christian worldview is the most harmful worldview out there. And it's just like, no. Like actually religion has added. it weighed into the world, then it's taken away. Taking away on atheism or agnosticism, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, it made me think about pressing First Corinthians 6, right? Which is addressing primarily heterosexual.

That's what she just turned to. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. First Corinthians 6. Just because just because it's consensual does not mean it's not harmful. Yes. See, they are equating, conflating consent with comfort and consent with it being good.

But what Paul is saying... Or just being happy. Exactly. Like Romans 1, because they'll say, well, it was really about pederasty. It was about abusing male young boys. But Romans 1, Paul is saying, no, they exchanged natural relations for each other. That's consensual. Yeah.

And he's calling it harmful. First Corinthians 6. Exactly. Yep. And 1st Corinthians 6, he's saying it's consensual, but it's still harmful. Yeah. And so, again, because we're not letting God define it, and the deconstructionist that is deconstructed away from Christianity,

anything that goes against this idea, what Jesus told us to do? Because if any man would be my disciple, Matthew 1624, we must first, what, deny ourselves? So self-denial is harmful because it gets in the way of sex actualization, and they believe that God exists to cater to them, not to counsel them. Wow. I'm going to read what is being referenced.

First, Corinthians, 6, 18, flee from, sexual immorality, every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. So in essence, sin harms you. But also, I think in this conversation, what's always so interesting to me is that the nature of even that position is revealed when all you could, like, you're not even considering that God is offended. We're not harming anybody. God is offended. Like he made heaven and earth. He's the create.

And he sent his son to die for that same thing. And so if there is any harm being done, it's to God's glory. And that's why it's a problem. That's so deep. Because what you're saying is sometimes from the people who make these complaints, they could just be so people focused, them focus, Christians focus. Because I have you considered God. God don't matter. And that tells you everything you need to know.

Yeah, that's good. Well, but they're spiritual, and some of them are admitting it now, which I appreciate, they're spiritual humanists. So humanism centers humanity. It's anthropocentric. It's man-centered. So the focus, and some of you even said, I'm not trying to be a great Christian. I'm trying to be a great human.

Yeah. So they're saying, look, any way I can center humanity, so it is not Christocentric. And that's why they operate the way they do. I actually appreciate that. I really hope y'all are making time for your annual checkups, get your blood work, your lab work, stuff like that. You know, some of y'all are around 40. You need to get your prostate check, things like that. Why you have to look at me when you say a prostate check?

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That's fieldofgreens.com promo code Perry. I appreciate some of them. I value honesty. Like, if you say I hate God, bet. Let's go. That's why I like going to Portland, them. I can work with that. It's y'all liars in South Carolina that I don't, that I be having.

You know what I'm saying? I think I think the tricky part. The tricky part comes in is when you have syncretism, you have people who actually try to do both, try to be humanist, but also try to be Christian. Because the guy who just, the guy who criticized me, we was talking about it. Like, he tries to be both. It was like you really can't do both successfully and serve the Lord. You know what I mean?

And so, like, I think he tries to focus on human dignity. And then, but at the same time, he's called himself a pastor. And so, like, it's just, it's confusing. I do want to move on to another S, but if y'all still on this S, we can, we can wait. I'm following y'all leave. I just want to, I think I wanted to say something. I think, again, I just, I think God's glory is the thing that our human nature despises. And I think a lot of people attempted to live a Christian life without the power that animates it.

And so I think some of the shame and some of the despair could be not merely just that you love your sin more than you love God. That's a thing. But it's also that you try to stop love and sin without power. And so I think people have to interrogate. It's like, I tried to be a Christian. that's the problem. Like you try to be a Christian. Jesus makes people Christian.

And so I just, I don't know. I just feel like there's some frustration sometimes. It was like, I tried that. I did that. And I was like, yeah, I think you was trying to live and you was still dead. And you frustrated by that. And it's like, you get mad at me when I'm like, no, like, he actually made me alive. So, I mean, I have power.

And I am frustrated and I do struggle, but I have power. And so that's always the difference. But also we also kind of talked about this last podcast that we, that we recorded. It was the first podcast we recorded today. But, you know, I do think that's what the Christian has to have some type of empathy. Yeah. To say, you know what? Because they try to do something on their own power, it's probably a reason why they think I'm a liar.

It's probably a reason why they think I'm a liar. I've experienced something that they haven't. And so because they try to experience it and didn't get to that, destination, I probably just look like a huge counterfeit to them because the Bible tells that a natural man doesn't understand spiritual things for they are spiritually discerned. And so I do think that it's frustrating. Yeah. I totally understand that.

Or they will lie too. Like if you're under a prosperity gospel type leadership and they're telling you, you can speak things into existence. Yeah. Or you can sow a seed and spend around three times and your husband is coming or your deliverance is coming. Yeah. And that you can buy this.

and you literally believe it and you do it. And it doesn't happen. They're like, well, I've been lied to. So we got to realize that some people, which again, which is why spiritual abuse and church hurt is, again, one of those reasons we need to be empathetic and ask questions. What was your experience?

And I just assume that everyone's not deconstructing because they just want to have sex. Like there are some legitimate church hurt, spiritual abuse, concerns. People aren't encouraged to ask questions in certain churches. So these are things we need to explore. So I do want us to keep a loving disposition, even if they throw the smoke at us. Jesus says, Jesus, when he was reviled, he didn't revile in return.

So now we're not afraid of the smoke, but we need to make sure, again, First Peter 315, that we're gentle and respectful, even as we rebuke some of the things that are coming at us. Yeah. I want to talk about this next S, right? So I know that me and you can nerd out about this next S. Probably not so much my wife. I just did your podcast and we talked about it. We don't have to talk about it in depth.

Sure, I'll be intrigued. But, you know, we talked about it in the podcast. I've just recorded with Hugh and Raleigh. Because I want to talk about it because I don't think the Christian church understands how much people are leaving the faith because of it. And I think because we sometimes so in-house, us apologists and evangelists, we know, like, slavery is a huge thing. Absolutely.

How much is a huge thing. Yeah. And so I just want to talk about this idea that Christianity is the white man's religion. Yeah, yeah. And slavery. And I also want you to talk about your book, The White Washington of Christianity. Yeah. You got it with you?

Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, right here. Right here. Yeah, it's one of the white washing of Christianity. Yeah. It's a really good book. Talk about that. What are your initial thoughts?

So one of the things when we talk about Deacon's, construction. So a couple of books I also want to suggest, I want to suggest the Great Dechurching because it gives us the sociological data as to who's leaving and why, and then church refugees. All right, both of those books aren't, so that way pastors aren't just making up stats. It's like, all right, here's who's leaving. And it's primarily from the Great Dechurching, white women close to 50 leaving, right? There is a resurgence of young, young men, in general, of all races coming back for the first time, young men are coming back to church more than women.

So more women are leaving than men are coming in a sense. Now, the connection there is more have left in the last 25 years than all of the awakenings combined. And when you dig into that, one of the reasons for why black and brown people primarily is slavery. Because of Ephesians 6'5 and the way some reformed theologians have not really presented providence in slavery properly and presented like, well, God wanted this, so y'all should just accept it because that's how y'all found Christ. And it's like, no, we have to dig into that.

So deconstructionists are looking at and saying, your God affirmed slavery. And so it appears that God is on the side of the oppressor and is contributing to oppression. And so some have concluded that Christ is on the side of the oppressor and they have determined, hey, this is a white man's religion, so I'm leaving the faith. And that's why I wanted to write it. I wanted to say, hey, you're right about white washing because they did paint all the church theologians, all the African theologians white. All the angels. They painted, man, they made all the angels white. They made David White, Moses's white, all these African, they made the Egyptians white. We might get Samson because he had locks. But other than that, we ain't getting up.

I said, why are they speaking British? Yeah. So white, so I wanted to, affirm their concern, but disagree with their conclusion. Because the conclusion was to walk away from the faith. So there's a difference between white washing and white man's religion. So that's why I wrote it. Now, when it gets to slavery, we have to deal with, hey, Fetian 65, slaves obey your masters, right? Paul uses the term due laws, which he's talking about a servant.

So Paul has indentured servitude in mind. He wrote this around 60 AD in a Roman prison, long before the transatlantic slave trade of 1619. Paul does not have race-based chattel slavery in mind at the time the Holy Spirit has given him this revelation. He also talks about a different form in this letter to Timothy, where he calls the ungodly who won't inherit the kingdom of God within that category are enslavers. So that should let us know that there are two different ways that word is used.

So if we don't dig into biblical etymology, then we're now making an eternal decision to walk from Jesus based on misinformation. And I wanted to address that in this book. That sounds like Genesis 3, don't it? That's what it sounds like sound. Back to the, back to the book. And so that's what I wanted to do is kind of dig into that and say, hey, that's what's actually happening there.

And last thing, why don't they get to verse 9? Ephesians 6'5, they stop there, slaves to obey your masters. But then he has something to the master. And he's like, there's a master over everybody, right? So he's making it clear that when you understand indentious servitude, some people actually sold themselves to pay off a day. debt. So he's not talking about beating, he's not talking about the Transatlantic slave trade. Exodus 2116 says kidnapping is punishable by death. A lot of the transatlantic, while some

Africans did sell each other out, it also involved kidnapping, which Jesus does not, God does not, Yahweh does not affirm. Yeah. So we have to dig into that. So I want to dig into that. I'm digging that with people. Yeah, but oftentimes when people say that what Christian humanity is a white man's slavery, they have very poor history. And so they try to point back to, you know, 325 AD, the council of Nassia. They try to point back to these times in history and they just get the history just all wrong. But it's just like, and then when they want to talk about,

you know, white church fathers, they go back to the 1700s, John Calvin. But this is like, but if you, yeah, Marluta, but if you pay attention to a lot of the people that they were quote, they were quoting African church fathers. You know what I'm saying? And so even in 325 AD, you know, like, like,

doing the council of Nassia, like it was a debate of like, you know, is Jesus eternal? Is God Jesus eternal or not? And it's like, these were Africans. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like Tertullian,

the one who coined the word Trinity, was an African, Clement was an African. Athanasius was in North African. And so I do think that they critique like the 17, 1800s, but then if you just go back to 325 AD, these were African men who helped lay the foundation of what we believe and why we believe it

and even fall for at the council not seeing in 325 AD. And so... Yeah, so a couple things on that. One of the things, and this is my challenge to black deconstructionist is you can't oppose white supremacy and use their hermeneutics at the same time.

So if you believe that Paul did have the had the enslavement and degradation of black people in mind, you're now agreeing and affirming how white enslavers use that verse against black people. So now you're actually siding with their hermeneutic on the text. You can't have it both ways. So if you just did a little homework on it,

then you will now find yourself siding with the white supremacist based on their view of the text, which is why we got to know. The slave Bible, they removed 38 chapters from the book of Exodus. I wonder why,

because it's something about freedom and walking through a red sea. So if you just do a little homework, write quick on the councils, three councils that people need to know about. All right, the council of Jabna in 90 AD. Yeah, 980D. That was a Jewish council to get us the 39 books of the Old Testament.

All right. So this is before the council of Nassia, because they say Nassia. They created Jesus at Nassia. They created Christianity. No. Nassia was powerful. So now 325A.D. What happened there was the essence of Jesus was debated between Athanasius and areas, the primary voices.

So Christianity was not created there. And then the council of Carthage, 390s. was the closed canon for the 66 books that we have. These councils did not create anything. The councils were about debates, not creation. And that's a very important distinction that people need to know historically because when they think that things were created,

they're ignoring all that rich African history that preceded it and the African voices that were present at the council. Yeah, yeah, because it's like saying, saying that's when doctrine was created. It's like saying the murder happened at the trial. trials happen to figure out who murdered. That's a great analysis.

You know what I'm saying? And so like you fundamentally misrepresent why the council was even held if you believe that the Trinitarian doctrine or Jesus being God happened at the council of Nassia is just not. It's just so far from the truth. Also, just one last thing. A lot of people have this idea that, why does his name just. Constantine. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Constantine was the one who kind of like pushed Christianity for it. But it was like, no, he's the one who gathered the bishops. Right. To come to the council of Nassia to vote on this debate between Athanasia's and areas. And so he was not even a theologian. He didn't care. He was an opportunist. He was an opportunist.

And if you look at, you know, Constantine's words, he's like, y'all just decide. I don't care. You know what I'm saying? And so people, like, I've heard people use that argument too, that Constantine is the one who made Christianity popular. And that's us. Or created it. And again, that's what's called

an anachronism, which is a timeline error. So I just always ask people, when they say, man, Christianity was created in 325. Okay, so what about the Edict of Milan? The Edict of Milan was 313

where they legalized Christianity, right? So how can you legalize something you ain't invented yet? Oh. So we just, again, we as believers, we need to know some history.

We do need to know more than just our scriptures because a soul is worth it. Yeah. And so we got to be able to make historical arguments, not just biblical arguments. Again, I'm a pat.

I'm not demeaning the word of God, all right? So don't nobody put something crazy in the comments. But I'm saying a soul is worth knowing history. And I've seen, I've done a lot of evangelism at the barbershop because I was able to debunk some of these assumptions because I knew history. And again, a lot of these deconstructions, while some are educated because they went to seminaries and things like that, a lot are using Google and TikTok for their research. And that's just not scholar.

Yeah. And what you're just saying is basically just, no outside sources so that you can help prove your primary source, which is the scriptures. And so, yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. While y'all were having a great discussion, I was thinking. It's a good discussion.

I got to study this stuff in class. I'm like, okay. But I think when it gets into dates and history, I'm like, all right, whatever, whatever. But all I could think of mainly is the, I'm always considering the emotional human motive underneath our research, you know, because. I do think we're people who are prone to confirmation bias. And so even when it comes to people who are deconstructing because of white supremacy or because of slavery, I think underneath is the desire for their dignity to be affirmed. And I think that has to be highlighted. And so I guess,

yeah, you be talking to the Black Hebrew Israelites and all that. Yeah, I mean. Let me say that. Because somebody could hear this and all of this is legitimate and necessary information, but they think that the information is sufficient to save their brother. Yeah. And so it's like we need to get underneath how that information is actually disproving the lie that you're not worth it. Yeah, that's good, babe. Good way to bring it back to the heart.

No, I think that's really good. One of the things that my brother, Pastor Jerome just said, is affirming fears. And not affirming, but like, like, concerns. Concerns. And, like, not ignoring the fact that Christianity has been whitewashed. And so I think that, one, that acknowledgment is great. In my time of talking to Hebrew, Israelites, the nation of Islam, I mean, you saw in our old neighborhood just, I was able to build with the nation of Islam. It's because I just wasn't a liar about what this country has done with Christianity.

Absolutely. And so because I was able to sit in the tension of what they were frustrated with, they were able to hear me out more. And I was able to reach them and talk to them because I'm like, no, you know. And when they ask me questions like, so why are you still a Christian? I'm then able to then explain this is the reason why I'm a Christian. It's because when I open up the scriptures, I don't see the scriptures that has been whitewashed. I don't see that, you know, I don't like, I'm not a part of a religion or faith that has been whitewashed. And so what America has done has not tainted how I view God.

And so then I'm able to point them to the real scriptures because I'm able to identify with their struggle. was that pain. So I think owning it is... No, absolutely. And I think we have to... Now, again, I'm not... Before I say my... Let me preface my statement, right? So I'm not against reformed theology. I don't consider myself that. I don't embrace all five points of Calvinism. But I think one of the damaging things about a lot of kind of neo-Calvinists and stuff is they start with Genesis 3. So they start with the downfall of humanity. And When we're talking to deconstructionists, I'm talking, I'm starting with Genesis 1 that you're made in his image.

That's good. And because you're made in his image, you deserve dignity, value and respect, even if you don't trust him. So I'm going to give that to you, whether you, if the Holy Spirit converts you, because I don't convert John 6th, a man is not saving unless the Spirit draws him. So I want to start with, I'm having this conversation because you have value. And that's an allure for the gospel. And so while you may disagree and you may think that calling sin sin, sin is harmful. the beautiful thing about our God is that he took on the harm that we did deserve himself by going on the cross and becoming sin, 2nd Corinthians 521, for us to give us redemption.

Then he sends us out on mission to do the same to tell people about him. So what you see as harmful, I see as beautiful, because I start with Chapter 1, where we all deserve dignity, honor and respect, including the homosexual, deserves dignity, and respect, including the atheists, right? And so we have to start there. When we start just here and we don't say there was some brokenness, that's what sin brought in, brokenness from God's original intent for us. If we start with chapter three and not chapter one, then it affirms this idea of degradation of humanity and not the dignity of humanity.

That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. Me and Preston went on a cruise two weeks ago and we were talking about. It was late.

we were talking I'm trying to yeah we were because I was about to get my review we were talking about a church that I was disciplined in when I was a new Christian and how I think as far as

members were concerned probably three to five hundred people as far as like people that would attend in the close that thousand since that that church was disbanded because the leadership was revealed to be sinful, just super legalistic, dare I say spiritually abusive.

And I was telling Preston, I was like, I think me and maybe one other person is still a Christian. Nobody else is that I know of. They might be out there and they just like not on social media. I know two of them might. So probably I could think a four. But I was talking about how I think some of it is we weren't, we were getting a gospel but not discipleship. not grace, not leaning on the Holy Spirit, all this stuff. But I also think the way everything came out,

it's just like, because even for me for two years, I was like, yeah, I'm pretty good on church. Like, we can just have gonadena at the grill, you know what I'm saying, drink coffee and spark and stuff. And I think spiritual abuse and even just unhealthy churches plays such a significant part on how people process the Lord. Yes. Like, it just, it's, it does something to our psyche.

I think I hear about that more than anything. No, thank you so much, Jack. I was hoping we could talk about that because we have believers denying that church hurt is a thing. And I saw one guy who was like, well, if you go to gym, it's just Jim hurt. It's like, well, the church is a people. Bricks your muscles. What are you talking about? Right, right?

Yeah, you got Jim hurt, right? But the church is made of a people. And so I'm reminded of Psalm 55, right, where it says it's not an enemy who hurts me. but it's a friend that we used to go to the congregation. Psalm 55, 12 through 14. We used to go together. That's good. And that's what the hurt was.

And so church hurt is hurt inflicted on members and attenders by leaders or the members of their church. And sometimes it distances people from God. That's how they feel. Because that's for my fellowship. That's where I get to, I'm known and I get to know people. And so we have to deal with the fact that the church, The church refugee book deals with the dunes.

And we have to go at this and say spiritual abuse is real. I mean, I'm getting stories at my church. Man, a pastor tried to holl at my wife. I was on vacation. He brought a cake to the house. He knew I wasn't there. I'm getting these stories. I shake hands in the lobby.

We did a series in Second Peter, exposing false teachers. Did you have like a spiritual abuse night or? Well, no, so we have church hurt small groups. And I was going to say one of the ways we can go at this, which can help. And we've had a waiting list where we have a count. counselor leading that. We believe in Christ in counseling. We have counseling firms. We work with our

church. And we're not demeaning the scriptures in any way. But we have to get at the reason that some people don't want to go is because they went. And they had a terrible experience when they went. And so, but what I want to say to the person teetering on deconstruction is don't blame Christ for what Christians do. Christians don't always represent him well, but he will never fail you. So I think it's important. And that was the other book. I wrote a book called Church Heard. And the subtype was holding the church accountable and helping hurt people heal. And that's essential because I wanted to own it and say, unfortunately, I've been on both sides. As a pastor, I have hurt people.

And we got to admit this for those of us in leadership because one of the best things we can do as pastors is repent in front of our people and say, hey, I'm wrong and apologize to people. And I've had to do that. So I've experienced it, but I've also caused it. And we need to also recognize that pastors get hurt too. Yeah. Because we're put on a pedestal and we don't know we didn't meet your standard until we fail you. And we didn't even know you was looking at us to do something like that. So it's just important that we do not deny that people have legitimate hurt.

Pastor Jerome, what do you say to the person who just heard you say? The church failed me, yada, yada, yada, but all I need is like Christ and not the church. What do you say to the person that says, yeah, that's the reason why I don't go to church. Amen, pastor. That's the reason why I don't rock with the church no more. and I just deal with Jesus in my crib. You know, I have service by myself. I don't think that Christ hurt me.

The church hurt me. That's the reason I'll mess with his people. Right. I want to first, again, I want to affirm their hurt. And I think one of, one of, we do two things. Either we dismiss church hurt or we deny the hurt, deny the abuse. So I want to first acknowledge that person. Like, hey, let me get your story.

Like, what happened? before I just invite you to my church because that's what a lot of people do. My church's different. Hold on, this person just shares some deep stuff and you went straight to, we got a nine and we got an 11. Hold on.

Slow your role and let's hear the person's stories. I want to first do that. And then I want to say, hey, how long are you and Jackie been married? 12 years. 12 years. So something tells me, Preston, that a person cannot walk up to you

and say, Preston, I'm good with you, but I can't stand your wife. Yeah. And Jesus, Jesus says the church is his bride. I just told you that. You can't say, I'm cool with you, but I can't stand your wife. And his wife, because it's us, the church, she jacked up. She got some issues.

But that's still his boo. And so we are called and we're told not to forsake the congregation of the brethren. And so I want to enter that pain. For us at our church, hey, when I ask you to hop and do a whole bunch of stuff, hey let's get in one of our church group or get in one of our trauma groups and let's process your pain but you cannot separate

Christ from his breath as imperfect as she is the church is Jesus is plan A and he don't need a plan B Yeah we have to know the Lord in that way because like I was just telling Pastor Jerome at the church there was he was asking about a friend

that I used to have and this friend didn't like Jackie anymore and because they deconstructed They deconstructed it It ain't like Jackie no more. And the last thing I heard from multiple people, he was like, I love Preston. I just know I'm not even going to have a conversation with him. Because I already know if I'm not rocking with Jackie.

He's not rocking with me. And I'm like, you, you're asking. Exactly. Like, you know what I'm saying? But like, because he knew me, he already knew that he don't come to me trying to have a conversation about my wife. How much more the Lord? Exactly. You know what I'm saying?

Like, we really got to understand that the Lord is like, yeah, you can't be It's in my bride if you think that you're cool with me. And so, yeah. Deconstructions are adept at compartmentalizing. Yeah. I think one thing about pain and trauma, even when I was listening to Dan Allender this weekend, and he was saying how through trauma we experienced shame

and a fruit of shame is contempt. And I think with pain and contempt and shame, we actually experience a degree of hopelessness. and I think post my situation with that church, it was the scriptures that reaffirmed the hope that I should have in this body because it's his body. You know what I'm saying? But also the what's like because it's his body led by him,

empowered by him, there's also like, I'll read it. Second Corinthians three, Paul is talking. He says, Blessed be the God and Father by Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort. I think it's easy to stay there because it's like I'm hurt,

all I need is God. But then verse four, who comforts us in all our afflictions so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves have been comforted. And when I read that, I was like,

oh, some of this pain won't be mended if I don't get back in the church. Because it's the church that God then use it. as a means, as a conduit of the comfort that he has available to me. And it's that same comfort that he's then going to use me to comfort somebody else. And so I just think, I think it takes hope to believe that it's possible to be healed in the places that hurt you.

I like to use the analogy, Jackie. We're all parents. And I remember when my son had to get his shots, right? He had to get his shots. And I'm trying to distract him. So I got the little airplane flying around and he's looking at the airplane. And while they're looking at the airplane. at the plane, wow, they got him.

Then when they got him, before he cried, he looked at me like, you set me up. Then he started crying. But so I allowed the pain, but he reached for me to be healed from the pain he was feeling. That's good. And so the same one who allowed it, I was also the answer for his healing. And that's how God, our father, we're not God, but we go through him, but he uses people. So even though certain things have happened, you will find your healing through God. It's the Holy Spirit through God's people.

So the poke hurts, but that same place can be a place of healing. Yeah, that's the hard thing, though, when it comes to just deconstruction, but even just being church and church hurt, like, God want to use flawed human beings to help heal you. And flawed human beings was the one who hurt you. That's difficult. And once I, you was talking about how the scripture says, do what it's hard or do what is difficult. It's like that is a difficult thing to do. but it's when we do it

It's actually, you know, when we receive the healing. It's scary. And I think pray. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, tell the Lord that. Like, I don't like these people. I don't trust them. I'm mad.

I'm angry. I'm sad. Weep. And I just have consistently found that when I am really, really broken before God about whatever the thing is, clarity comes, wisdom comes, but also power. You know what I'm saying? And I think we got. we got to be like Hannah, go on to that temple and let them emotions out.

You know what I'm saying? And she left the temple and her face was no longer sad. Now, for some of us, that might take two years to get to that place where joy is so evident and so prominent in our heart. But at the same time, don't neglect him as you grieve. And I think it's in that intimacy and it's in that place that gives you the ability to show up in ways that are altogether strange. You should not want to return back to a church after they hurt you.

You should not want to get married after that man cheated on you. You should not want to love your children. Like, you shouldn't want to, but God, that's what resurrection power does. It does impossible things. That's good. And so I just, I don't know, I just want to be, I want this to be a place where we actually believe again. Because if there's any scheme of the devil, he don't want us to believe again.

Yeah, that's good. I do have a question that made me think about something, just talking about community. Like, what, like, what is a healthy proximity that someone who is deconstruction should still have with believers in the church? Because when you're deconstructing from the church, it can be this temptation. How can I properly deconstruct if I'm just immersed around Christians and the Christian worldview? But if we destroy away from Christians, we can be led astray. So what does a healthy deconstruction look like for?

No, yeah. I did a video called Five Mistakes Christians Make with Deconstruction. You've done a lot of thought. And one of them, one of them, though, I'm just going to talk about one of them was, not admitting our own crisis of faith. And so let's be real, like, you telling me it never crossed your mind, man, what if I die and it's just black?

Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. What a waste. Like, do you, it never crossed your mind. Like, man, what, what if? So I could have started. I could have been. Yeah.

I could have. I missed out of you. I missed out of you. I gave up. Right. You know, so. I gave up that weed and that good weed. for blackness?

Not glory? I point them to the imprecatory psalms. That's great. Where it's like, these people are being uncensored. There's a question you, a two-word question you see frequently in the Old Testament.

How long? How long are you going to allow this? Habakkuk asks. How long David asks, right? And so I want them to be around people who are real, who are authentic. And we're able to say,

yeah, sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't feel like going and I'm the pastor. Yeah, yeah. So I say this in my pulpit. Like most of the time, 95% of the time, I do genuinely love the people of God. Some days I'm tired. Some days I just, because this is a calling. I didn't choose this.

No one in their right mind wants to do this. Right, right. It is a calling. So I think I want them around people. who are real and authentic. That's good. And that's what they need to, because that's what you're seeing in the scriptures.

That's tight. Like, yo, I'm struggling with you God. Psalm, it's a Psalm, think of Psalm 77. He says, Jackie, to God, he says, I think of you and I groan. He's telling God that I think about you and I get depressed. And God don't strike them down. And so we just got to get back to the book. Like, if you know your Bible.

I can be uncut with God, and he ain't trying to cut me in a bad way. The beautiful thing about Jesus is he's a surgeon, not a butcher. Both cut, but the surgeon cuts to heal you. Yeah. And that's what he does. So, yeah, I want to bring back. I want them around authentic real people. That's fire.

Can you close with reminding us of what, you gave a bunch of A's with all the A's work. Oh, for deconstruction? The A's of deconstruction and just a closing, I guess, exhortation. about anybody in that process how to do this well? Yeah, so the four A's, the first one is assessing, and there's nothing wrong with assessing the version of Christianity perhaps you were presented with, because it could have been a legalistic one

where you're going to hell as a woman for wearing hands. It could have been a prosperity one where you pray for your mom to get healed, but she still died, and then they told you you didn't have enough faith. That's hurtful. So there's nothing wrong with the air. of assessment. The second A is adaptation. The question is, how are you adapting from which you've

assessed? Are you using the scriptures as part of your adaptation? Because if you're not using the scriptures, when you go to the third A, which is adoption, you're going to adopt a version of Christianity that is not biblically orthodox. That's good. And then it leads to that fourth a abolish. Now, there's nothing wrong with abolishing aspects of fundamentalism that are legalistic and not Christian. We should abolish those things. There's nothing wrong with abolishing the Republican Jesus or the Democrat Jesus. There's nothing wrong with that conflation of conservatism and Christianity. Again, liberalism and Christianity, because both sides, neither side has a true kingdom agenda. There's nothing wrong with abolishing that. But once you abolish the scriptures,

well, now you're now cherry-picking to where, again, you want his love, but you don't want his lordship. So I just want to encourage people to come back to him. He went through all this. The reason he didn't just fast forward to the cross is because he had to live in our place to say yes when we said no and to say no when we said yes. He lived and through him now you get that imputed righteousness. So I want to encourage you this

rather than deconstruct, let's renovate and stay in the house. Stay in the church and let's renovate it as opposed to deconstructing and leaving. That's beautiful. And through the Holy Spirit and the community of faith that can happen because salvation is personal, but it's not individual.

You need community. That boy, good. That's the doxology right there. Yeah. Well, we're going to have all the resources in the show notes. Thank you, pastor, master's degree, bishop, posse, doctorate, theologian, Jerome Gay. Apologists. All the things.

Appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye, y'all. With the Perry's is produced by the Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Libly. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.