With The Perrys - Let’s Talk Gospel, CCM, and Why it Matters With Erica Cambell

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Jackie and Preston are joined on the podcast by Gospel music legend Erica Campbell for a conversation on Christian genres and the role of music in our walks as Christ followers. They discuss how race and different cultural experiences factor into the music played in our churches, and how the social media algorithm influences our perception of Christian music too. Is one genre more theologically sound than another? Why is it important for us to not cut ourselves off from how we could experience God in a genre we’re not used to? And how can songwriters resist division, keep Jesus at the center, and seek to write music that will actually disciple people?  Scripture references: Ephesians 5:18-19   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys. What up with y'all? Hope you're blessed. Hope you highly favored. Hope you love the Lord today. I hope when you took a shower today, you cleaned your ears out. Because people will be forgetting about the little ears situation. Why are you always going to hygiene?

Because I'm always thinking. I'm always thinking that this is like in the early of the morning and it's fresh on people's mine. So people are like, oh, let me pause this. So watch my little ears out real quick. See the logic there? A little earwax build up. Honestly, I kind of just want to get straight into it. I don't even want to do all the humdrum.

Yeah, man. We ain't got a banner today. You feel me? I don't even want to do all that. Like, just like, we got Erica Campbell. Erica Campbell. It's the God in me. Yes, it is.

Shackles off my feet so I can dance. I just want to praise you. I just can't give up now. Yeah, I can't. I come too far. What about yesterday? From where I started from... Did you look at your calendar and figure out yesterday?

Nobody told me. Huh? The... What is it? The road? The road will be easy, but I won't... Don't? Don't believe he brought me this far to leave.

We love to see it. I used to say it. I used to cry. I'd be like, man, that's true. True. Do you know, but do you know... I'll post it. I don't know.

Do you know that my favorite album was the sound? Was it? that I don't know if it's I don't because some albums I think might be favorites for people because of the season because I just got saved when

the album came out really and so I just used to listen to it all the time and I just got saved and all we could do was go to I hop and go to the skating rink and the way they was playing that album out at that skating rink

and it just was so good sonically it was just great. And I feel like, I don't know. I just feel like people don't be talking about the sound enough. You know what I'm saying? I agree. Talk about the sound. They don't be talking about the sound enough for me.

Y'all some, like, real, I'm not even trying to gas. You're all some gospel legends. I want to tell a really quick story real quick. Okay. Because one, my mama, my mama still thought I was a bum until like four years ago. Like, I'm not even lying. No, you solidified.

Y'all solidified. Not him preaching the gospel. Not him having four kids. Not me going around the world doing poetry. Not him growing in Africa. It was, it was, it was, listen, listen. Erica and Tina. Erica and Tina, because my mama is, she like Kirk Franklin and y'all.

So she, I mean, she's, y'all had a show. She used to watch a show. She's talked about your mama. I'm like, you know their mama? Like, she know everybody. And so you had, like, it was like two reels I had posted. And she was like, did you know Erica Campbell reposted your re-posted your reals on her page? I'm like, mama, you're not even on social.

media. I said, I know Erica. And she was like, you don't know them. So look, so look, my grandma, I was on a PIA tour. My grandmother passed. And this is the Lord. My grandmother had died. And I had to leave the tour to fly to Chicago to bury my mom's mom. And I fly back to L.A. And when I fly back to L.A. to do the show, Tina is in the front row. And I'm like, oh, that's Tina Camel. And so afterwards, she came back. in the green room. And the whole time, the only person that I can think about is my mom

because she loves y'all so much. And I'm texting my mom all doing the show because she just buried her mom that day. And I texted her and I was like, how are you doing? She was just like, I don't think I'm going to make it. So I told, I told Tim, I'm getting emotional now thinking about it. I told Tina that and Tina was like,

call your mama right now. No, FaceTime her. And I FaceTime my mama with Tina Cam. what she looked like. And Tina talked a long time, huh? And she was like, your son is that fruit and you raised a kid

and you just buried your mama but God is with you and she just menaced it to my mama and when I tell you my mama talk about that to this day, she was like literally that was the Lord.

She's like the Lord literally spoke to me through one of my favorite gospel singers. That's beautiful. And so, yeah, tell Tina, I love it forever for that.

I will. We love y'all. We appreciate y'all too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, I don't take any of this stuff for granted. Yeah. Because, like, I remember pre-Mary Mary, Mary, Erica that just wanted and dreamed and went to events and prayed for an opportunity. Lord, I want to sing for you too.

I feel like I could say something for you, too. It was never about stardom. It really was always about people seeing Jesus and getting closer to Jesus. And so when I hear those stories, it's like, man, you answered my request. Like, seriously, I was at a choir rehearsal, and we were doing the guys. gospel version of I want to run to you. Why were we doing that? I don't know. But I was singing it, but I closed my eyes and I imagined myself singing it to Jesus, like literally.

And when I opened my eyes, people were in the floor, like worshiping. And I said, Lord, I want to do that for the rest of my life. And so that's always kind of been my goal. How can I direct people to Jesus? How can I get them to see you in a different light? Like, I feel like I'm all about the new Christian, the kind of on the fence. I don't know if I could do this Jesus thing and I can articulate it in a way

where you get it in your own language, not Christianese, not mad at Christianese because there's some people who speak that well. But everybody doesn't understand it. So I'm always honored. That's a group. Christianese, you know, praise the Lord, blessed and highly favored.

Oh, gotcha, gotcha, got you. I love you so much. He didn't know what Christian. It's a, it's the, it was being sarcastic. Yes, the colloquialisms of. I had a slow moment. I see it, colloquialism. It's not, you just.

I'm just praying. It's okay. Christianese. You would, because you, it's all right. You from the hood. And people think I speak Christianese. Like whenever we do mainstream stuff, they always want to say praise the Lord and God is good. I mean like, it's just high.

It's all right. Why are you still laughing at me, Ben? Why are you still laughing at me? He was like, is that a group? Because I want to tell a story, but it might take this conversation real loud. Can I tell it? It might take this conversation. Well, what?

I'll tell it off line. No, no, what kind of story is it? It don't matter. Say it. You gotta say it now, babe. She's still laughing. It's going to embarrass me in front of Mrs. Campbell. No, it's just, it's rated R with that lady in Radio Shack.

I don't think I could tell that. You have to, you have to. No, I can't. So I made a thread. I'll tell you. I'll tell you after that. No, you got to tell her now. I can't.

No, I really do think it's inappropriate. It's just, it's, Preston is just so sincere in his. his questions sometimes. And I just think the way you said, is that a group of something? It was awesome. On July 7th, 2025. Yes.

I made this thread. Okay. I said question. At some predominantly black conferences and churches, why do you think CCM, CCM is acronym for contemporary Christian music? Because some people is like, what is that? Right.

They thought I was speaking in a tongue. So why do you think CCM? takes up more space in the worship set than gospel. I'm really intrigued by that dynamic. I said, I love both drawn rows, but I find myself really missing the sound and experience that only gospel can evoke in a worship service. Miss, I'm America, I'm America, America Camel responds.

Such a great question and I got answers. I put three ear emojis. She didn't respond. I said, you know, I got her number. Let me text her. I text you because I got this. sense like I think this is a bigger conversation. Yes.

And I said, what do you think about coming on the podcast to talk about it? And here we are. Here we are. So we're all ears, Ms. Erica. I don't have nothing to say. I'm just listening. We're just going to listen to you. No, it's a dialogue.

The reason I responded is because, one, I know and believe in my heart that God is never in heaven going, I didn't mean for that to happen. I think he knew that this season would be here. I think that this can open the door for us to see us ourselves differently and the differences that we have. Sometimes the sound that is resonating in the earth doesn't come from us. And I think as it relates to music, especially with black music, gospel and R&B, and it's always a phenomenon when we rise to the top because we are still a minority in this country, right? And so when we understand that we are minority in this country, when our music does rise to the top,

We know that it is excellent. It is, you know, what God is called for in that season. And sometimes it is other music, you know. I don't want to say that we have egos, but we got egos. And so when we feel like our song is pop and we feel like, you know, we're writing and going, oh, everybody's going to sing this. And then we're singing it. Ooh, they're going to sing this in everybody's church.

And when they don't sing it in everybody's church, you got to come up with a reason. Sometimes it's easier to blame somebody else, some of the genre. It's easy, you know what I mean? Maybe that's just not what he's calling for. Listen, I put out a record that I thought was amazing and I called I love you. I was like, Lord, I'm going to sing about your love.

I'm going to make love deposits everywhere. I mean, it did good. It got nominated for a Grammy and, you know, Stellars didn't win but two. I don't want to say it didn't win too, but some people didn't win any. But I was nominated for like six, right? but sometimes it's just someone else's time

and that's okay I can't hear oceans and say God isn't in that it may not be somebody else's style I can't hear those you can't hear Jira and say there's something wrong with that song you may be upset about whatever you're upset about but then you've got to check your heart

because if if this music is supposed to connect us to God then the vessel is the vessel you know what I mean it's like when I pour the juice I don't think the container. Yeah. We think what comes out of it. That's what we want. So what is coming out of these songs?

What is it doing for you is more important? I think from the business side, from being an artist and a writer and, you know, my husband having a label, you want your music to reach as many places as it can. The enemy is in the middle of all of this, and we've got to understand that as well. He don't want none of this to get out. So let's make sure that they fight each other. Let's make sure that they're in competition. Let's make sure that they're accusing each other.

Now, some of the stuff you accuse them of, they are actually doing it. Sometimes people don't want your song play. I can't do nothing about that. But what I do believe from my nose to my toes, if God has called me something, can't no devil or no gatekeeper stop me from getting there. Come on, he coming into Hyundai. That was a fake tongue, by the way. Before we began, you said that this has actually always been a thing.

Oh, it's always been a thing. This conversation around contemporary Christian music, which you said, that is a new term. No. And gospel. And then you mentioned Andre Crouch. Like, give us even some of the history with this conversation. So when Andre Crouch was the thing and the wine is was the thing, they were all crossing lines and singing in different places.

If you go back to P.T.L. Praise the Lord singer. I think this was before TBN. B.B. and C.C. were praise the Lord singers. Even Carlton Pierce was a praise the Lord singer. And it was the more contemporary, more white sound of gospel music. I don't know who decided that gospel was black and Christian is white, but those are the terms that we know. But again, I think that the enemy uses that to divide us. But also, we don't all like the same thing.

And that's okay, you know what I mean? And it doesn't mean that it's not good. It's just not for you. And it's a such thing as culture. Culture, yeah, culturally we sing different songs. We have a different experience. What we've been through. know, the oppression, the slavery, all those things.

So God don't make a way out of no way is a big message in black church. Not so much in Christian churches. You know what I mean? Even though he will, but they just don't sing the same song from the same place as we do. And I think that's why even when we sing their songs, it feels and looks different. Like Tamila Man's, I can only imagine. It's different. That's a, yes.

Some soul. That's a great explanation. Or Cece's goodness of God is different. I won't say better. I'll just say different. Different. You know what I mean? It reaches people in a different place because there's something that she evokes.

And I think that's God designed. He didn't make us all the same on purpose. Yes, right. I think that when we sing each other's song, it's not a bad thing. It allows the song to reach more people. Like I have a song called A Little More Jesus. And I sang it on The Devil Words. I sang it with the Isaacs and Aaron Crab.

And, yeah, I think that's it. And so I sang it on the show is good, you know. And then after that, they still didn't play it on. radio station for whatever reason but then I go to Apple Music and there's like four or five Christian artists that cover the song I don't know I still get credit as a writer

I wrote the song but maybe they just didn't want it it's okay for them not to want it yeah yeah you know what I mean and I don't have to take that personal yeah because I feel like I'm assigned to who I'm assigned to sometimes we have to check our aspirations and see if they are in line with what God's plan is for us you know

it's really easy to see somebody else and say, oh, I want to do that. I've done that many times. I've gone to a movie, and I'll hear a gospel artist's song at the end of the movie, and I'll be like, oh, man, why didn't we get that call? But I'll still celebrate you.

I'm not mad. I don't want nothing to yours. I believe what's mine is mine and no one can take it from me. But I do think that we have to be smart and wise, and there are some conversations that we need to have about us coming together because how do we reach the world

with all this stuff that's in the middle. Yeah, I love what you said, though, about how, like, because black people are the minority, When we do something, it really has to be excellent to be counterported to the top. Absolutely. The reason why I want to ask you this question, because you're a logical woman. And I know a lot of times when we talk about the whole race thing, some people are just so sensitive about it, but it's a thing, right? And so we're not trying to make everything racist, but at the same time, there is a reality that we are the minorities in this country.

And so from your perspective, how much does race play into all of this? you know, when you have songs that don't sound historically African American or black. You know, we've heard the term crossing over in music for so long. And so can we just be real and honest about that? And truthfully, to even bring it back to the original question, that was the baseline of the question. That's the presupposition behind my question is. It's a very big word. Pre what?

Presupposition. I like that. She's smart. That's the, like, frame behind my question is black churches, black conferences, not singing gospel songs anymore. I think that's interesting. It's like, what happened to Fred Hammond, what happened to Dieter Caden, what happened to Clark Sisters, what happened to Ricky Diller, what happened to, like, Daryl Coley, Walter Hawkins, all those things that we don't hear. none of their songs no more in none of our spaces.

And this is what I'll say. Okay, you go. You go. I will say this. So some of it is those churches don't stream. You know what I mean? The churches that stream the loudest are those crossover churches.

So those are the ones that sometimes make it into the feed. What do you mean by that? Like, there are some traditional black churches that are not streaming their worship services. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or if they are, they don't have a.

big audience. And so if you have a big audience, then they kind of pop, the algorithms have a play in this too, I believe. And so the ones that are more popular and have like a big developed digital team, the way they're pumping out their content reaches more people. So they may hear a song the Elevation did or Mike Todd's church because they got a like a digital ministry is killing it, right? No, content. Whereas some churches, even mine, we. just put it on YouTube, right? We don't extract the worship clips and put them on. We don't, you know what I mean?

So sometimes it's a matter of that. I think people are still singing, thank you Lord on Sundays. And people are still singing, I will trust in the Lord. That makes sense. You know, people are still singing total praise. Yeah. You're just not seeing it. Wow.

You're just not seeing it a lot on social media. And then that older generation, they still barely figuring out on Facebook. You know what I mean? And that's part of people like in my era trying to translate this message to this younger audience, you know. I'm trying to be on TikTok. I don't know how good I am at it. Somewhere in the middle.

So would you say that churches that have like the larger, more mega churches are the ones that might are getting the more, like they have more attention. And therefore those are the ones that it seems like they are the ones like. That makes sense. It's an assumption. Yeah. Okay. Because I mean, I've seen Miranda Curtis kill around. She'd be killing it.

That the way she worships and the way she integrates. traditional and current and then this insane vocal ability while being anointed articulates the heart of God in a beautiful way. There are some people who are just singing. There are some people articulating the heart of God. Some people you could tell they want the platform. You could just, you can see it that it's really about them. And so no matter what song you sing, that's going to get in the way.

But there are people that still sing Jesus on the main line. Tell them what you want. Callie Worship. Listen, we're going to sing the traditional, the blood that Jesus shares from me. We're going to do that at communion. How do you feel about the assessment that CCM is more theologically sound than gospel?

Why? Oh, my God. I just what I'm going to ask next. Yeah. We was in the spirit. I like it because you're married. The two shall become. Yeah.

One. Come on. I disagree. Okay. Because when I first. heard, thank you, Lord, and choir rehearsal at 14 years old, it built nothing but gratitude in my heart.

You know what I mean? Even though they were saying, thank you for your love, thank you for your power. When they said it could have been me outdoors, that's a reflection of God's goodness taking care of me. There was a deep thank you in my soul.

That's why we wanted to marry, Mary, we did the song because it connected me straight to Jesus. From Ron Canoli, there was so many people. I mean, even karma, Do y'all remember Carmen?

I'm a market to you. Lord, I'm the old lady in here. No. I'll say aunt to you. What's her name, Karma? Carmen. You're introducing us to history. I'm sorry.

I didn't hear what you said, miss. Carmen. Carmen. Yes. He was like an Italian Christian singer. It was supposed to be like hip hop and pop. But he was very much the big thing, right? And it was kids of all colors in the audience.

And I think that there's always a time when there's certain things that we listen to for certain reasons, but I don't think that our gospel voices and gospel songs have not been biblical. They have been relative to our experience. You know, lots of worship songs from Milton Brunson. There's a song called

Jesus, we worship, and we praise your name. That was a worship song. John P. Key, I do worship you. Fred Hammer used to sing the Bible. He got a whole Psalm album. Absolutely. I had somebody unbiblical and they sing the Bible. Most of their songs, the one is most of their songs was a scripture.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, uphold me by the wine and see it's scripture. So it does speak to our struggle just because that is the language a lot of times in our black churches. But I think that the Bible is always underneath it undergirding and lifting to direct you to him being the answer and the solution. It's never like we just sing our problems and we just in our problems all together, rocking what was me. Where do you think that? Because that's an assumption that has always frustrated me and irritated me. and I've always wondered if it's come from a particular sect of the Christian faith

that wants to demonize black culture in particular and frame that as right doctrine. But where do you think that comes from? Because it's just so, it's easy to prove as as anisone. Does it make sense? Yes. And I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I do mean to say it's easy to prove that that's not true. Right.

But so where is that coming from? Is it that people have been introduced to forms of gospel that are self-centered, that are prosperity gospel-driven, that are my blessing, my this, that they have generalized all of gospel because they might have only heard forms of it that aren't biblical. Do you think that's what it is? I think that there's misinformation out there. And I think people love saying, ain't nobody singing about just. Jesus.

There are. And unless you've taken a survey of all the singers, you'll say, I haven't heard it. And if you haven't heard it, then start looking for it because it really is out there. People who have written songs that were directly to Jesus. You know what I mean? Like how I was when I imagined myself singing to Jesus, period, and said, I want to do that forever. For some reason, God gave me a different platform. And so people may see it as different.

That don't bother me. I stand before him, they're not going to be there. But I think that the enemy is in there too, because if I make them misdiagnose it, then they'll fight and try to figure out what the problem is instead of realizing, just take this lie off of it, that they're not actually singing Bible, singing God's truth, just their style from their experience. When people absolutely are, but that narrative just allows us to have the conversation about the differences as opposed to just saying, well, that ain't true. People are singing it. I think having a one, just an objective view that says, I want to love the Lord, I want to love his people, I want to understand truth,

and I want to take in music and use Scripture as a grid to discern all of it and not demonize any one sound based on its sound. Right. Right. So if it sounds like gospel, then it's automatically unbiblical. But if it sounds like gospel, sounds like CCM, then it's automatically solid. And I was telling Press and I said, when people put it the sound, when they think the sound

is solid, instead of putting the lyrics up next to a grid, then you deceive yourself. I was like, because there are some parts of CCM that if you listen to it, it's actually more new age than Bible. Truthfully. There are some ways in which some songs, the way we talk about the Lord and the way we talk about the spirit. Right. Buddhists could sing this. Yes. Like when you study new age, it's giving.

It's giving. It's a little God and also a little mean. Not all of CCM, but some of it. But some of it is giving. It's giving y'all probably microdose before you wrote that song. That's actually very good. That's what I'm saying. And so I'm saying, I'm simply saying don't demonize sounds put all of it next to scripture. That's good. That's what I'm saying. That's good. And what I was going to say is, I love that you said that because I think people do judge sounds and they make

sounds unbiblical, which is crazy. But at the end of the day, I think there's healthy critiques on both sides. I think that's a healthy critique for the CCM. And there might be a healthy critique in gospel is to say, man, some of the gospel can be more vertical thinking. Vertical, we could think about, you know,

but at the same time, we could say CCM can learn from gospel because I do think that the Bible gives us a healthy place to Amen. Absolutely. Correct. And to, and to, and to more, and that's what gospel does.

And so I don't think all of our songs should be absent of lament, right? And so, like, the reason why I want to talk about working together, because if the two work together, we actually will make a better picture of the holistic scripture. Absolutely. Something like the Psalms. Some like the Psalms. You see, you see praise and you see lament. Yes. And so there's something that the African American community can teach to the, some of our white.

brothers and this is just about lament and about embracing it and not running from it. Yeah. And vice versa. Our community is diverse. All black people aren't created equal. Everybody didn't grow up in the ghetto and everybody didn't have two parents. Everybody didn't go to college. You know what I mean?

So we've all had different experiences. And I remember when that hit me in the face, I was me and Tina were singing for a group of young people. And we're going, you know, you have to listen to your parents and, you know, go to church. And this young girl said that her mom molested her. So how do I tell this child? Wow. You know what I mean? Yeah.

How do we tell the people, you know, if you just listen, I know a lot of older saints, that's, you know, just listen to your parents. Well, my father's an alcoholic and abusive. So direct me to Jesus. Yeah. And so when I realize that some of our lives are different, how do I just direct you to Jesus? There are some common things that we all, everybody wants to feel loved, everybody wants to feel protected. Everybody wants to feel like they're good enough. So those are some, like, those subjects make our way in the music a lot.

And sometimes we can talk about us so much. Yeah. And what he's doing for us so much that it's almost like you put God in a waiter's uniform. That's good. Like, you know, I know so many people who I left the church because God didn't give me what I wanted. As if I went to a restaurant and didn't like the entree. so I left and said I'm never going back. Wow.

And that's, you know, I understand that living for Jesus and singing for Jesus won't be easy. That everybody's not going to want it because I want people to be saved, right? And so the enemy don't want that. And frankly, a lot of people that, they want Jesus to fix stuff, but fix me but don't change me too much. It's like when people say stuff like, I just want to be like my real self. Is that the ungodly version of you or what's the real? Yes. Jackie with your hand up.

Yes. We can't clap. Jackie's really enjoying this podcast. She enjoys all the podcasts, but she's really... I talk about this all the time. I'm enjoying this too. Because one, I love, I love music. I don't think people understand that.

And I love all music. So I don't, I don't, I think it's just so. so unfair when we're like doing the whole this is bad this is good like it it just like when you look at my playlist that thing will go from brandon lake to rickie to dangone chicago mass choir right to uh p j morton the daddy yes bishop you know what i'm saying it's all but i'm i'm experiencing god yes and it's the same god but i'm experiencing him differently because i'm accessing all different parts of the body. And I think that's what I want this to create space for.

But as songwriters, I guess I want you to speak to how to practice. I don't want to say what I want to say. Help a Lord. How do you practice the self-control and the humility to not just write songs that will make you money? but write songs that will also disciple people, right? Because if I write songs that make God out to be a waiter, I know that might get me the streams. Yeah.

Right? But I might need to write the song. Like, I don't hear a lot of Psalms 51 songs. But that's in the book. That's in the book. Right? Yeah. And so how do you, how do you counsel people into that kind of perspective as a songwriter?

So I think a song should be a song and a message is a message and I think they are different. I think a song can prepare your heart for the word. I'm not necessarily a fan of, you know, a song written from Leviticus. You know, I just don't think that's a fun song, you know. Or even, you know, you think Deuteronomy 28, you like the first half, you know, blessing the city, blessing the fifth, that bottom half, that's not real singable. You know, I'm going to destroy everything and, you know, it's not real singable. And so I think learning how to sing a song that will direct.

you to Jesus or even give you a desire to want to know more is a good song. That comes in many different forms. Our practice, me Tina and Warren, when we write together, we write it, we sit with it, we critique, you know, we'll say that don't make sense or that's not a good singable word, you know, just different ways. And who you are trying to reach is important. If you are singing for the church, you can speak Christianese. You know what I mean? Knowing your audience. Knowing your audience. You can use all the Jesus-E biblical words and they'll get it. example, we were writing a song, and it was a song called The Anointing. And so we had given it to our publisher, Big John, at Sony, Sony ATV, our publishing company.

And when we had given them the song, he was like, so this is cool. Like, so what is it about? Like, goosebumps? Like, he didn't even get it. So if you're trying to reach the world, you have to speak to them in a language that they understand. It's like if I went into a group of rappers, but I was a doctor and I'm trying to articulate, they're not going to get it. So you have to write from where you are, one.

And then whatever you write, allow the Holy Spirit to have his way. My husband always says, I don't write songs. I just take, God writes the songs. I just take dictation. He ascribe. Yeah, he always say that. But I get that. Like, when I started writing, still my child, I was on the freeway.

And I had to pull over and write the song. Because the first lyric I got was, could you tell him that I really need him? I really want to change. The next time you talk to God, could you please mention my name? I got that from having a conversation with Heavy D who we would call me Sister Ebo Shal. He was like, man, you just save his chick I know, right? And so he was like, he said,

and I ask you a question? I said, sure. He said, I want to talk to God, but I just don't know what to say. And he was like, I got a Bible next to my bed and everything. His friend had committed suicide and he was just dealing with a lot. And he wanted to get to faith, but it was this barrier. So I told him I would pray for him.

And I wrote that song because of him. his request and I realize there are some people who want to get to God and don't know how. You have the ability. A songwriter has the ability to give them something that literally gives them the language to speak to Jesus. Even if it isn't Psalms 1. You know what I mean? Could you tell them I really need them?

You know what I mean? I really want to change. The next time you talk to God, could you please mention my name? I love the second part of that song. I sent a message in the wind. I sent a message in the wind when the birds sang a song. And when you went to sleep last night, I told the moonshine all night long, just wanted you to talk to me.

And I know it's been a while. But to answer your question, you are still my child. That's not scripture. That's God. Wow. And when you think of writing songs that way, it's going to reach its mark. I don't know what the mark is. Is it CCM radio?

Is it gospel radio? Is it somebody randomly finding it? However, it lands. It'll land when it's supposed to. Maybe it even, like, when you think of certain songs, maybe it's for somebody 10 years from now to randomly hear it and come to Jesus. We want the awards and we want the stage,

but that's not the real gauge for a song or gospel music doing what is supposed to do. It's a life changed. It's your playlist. It's, you know, your mom loving Mary Mary. That's what it's supposed to do. do. So you won't always win.

It won't be the highest streamed. If it's not the highest stream, does somebody get saved? Yeah. That I help somebody get to Jesus from my song. And if that is at the forefront of your songwriting, you're always going to write the right song. If it is, how do I get on this? I know they, I know they're going to play this one. If that's all you want, that's all you're going to get.

Yeah. That's the reward. You know what I mean? If I do this, then maybe they'll ask me to go on tour. Then that tour, that's your reward. Wow. And is that the reward you really want? Or is it God being pleased?

Is it people saying your song changed my life? Yeah. The thing I love about the sound record you mentioned it earlier, me and Tina were doing something called Women of Faith. We were the only two black girls on it, and that whole experience was wild because just the way they did service is difficult. It was huge. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then it changed.

But they told us we had 20 minutes, and we were like, well, what if we want to flow? We was like, yeah, let the Holy Spirit flow in your 20 minutes. And we took that 20 minutes. We did a meet and greet after This girl came up Tears, tears, tears She was like, please don't stop writing The gospel music that you write

She said I was in the club And I heard God and me And she said, and I was dancing my butt off She's crying, crying, crying She was like, so I went and got the record She said, and I realized I was talking about God And she was like, this is bleep bleep

Gospel? She was like, I didn't I didn't want to listen to gospel But I couldn't stop listening to it She said, but I kept listening And then I went to church and that gave my life to Jesus all from here

and God had me in a club so she was like please please keep writing for people like me who didn't grow up in church that's why I write I love the awards they're great I got a lot of them

but if ain't nobody coming to Jesus if there's nobody coming to Jesus if we're just arguing about who at the top of the charts if we're just arguing about who's streaming if we just arguing about who's more connected to God well how's God getting the glory out of that like we love people love pointing out the problem

And so if you don't have a solution, then what are you even talking about it for in the first place? Yeah, yeah. And I know, like, I think CCM does give us the ability to kind of sing corporate work. Like, we can sing together, like with a lot of CCM music. But I think to go back to my mom, I think when I showed our Tina, you know, the only thing she can think about was, I just can't give up now. Sing it. I can't sing it.

But it just reminded her of a time. Yeah. Where God encouraged her in her lowest moments. Yeah, man. And we need that too. We need to come together and sing as a local church. Oh, man. But we also need those songs that will remind us of God's goodness

that would take us back to when we first heard it. When we experience God's freshness and newness for the first time, like we need all of that. And so I just think that if we abandon one for the sake of the other, I think that we just do ourselves a disservice. For sure. You know what I'm saying? Like we're not holistic human beings with multiple needs in the Christian community.

Absolutely. The thing I love about gospel music, especially when you talk about how you touch you, you can make me emotional because I remember just wanting to sing so bad. My 1990 Toyota Tertsale, I was in hair school. My parents didn't have any money. My parents just got divorced for the second time. time. And I was like, Lord, I just want to sing for you, right? And so my lunch was a boiled egg because I didn't have no money, had barely enough gas to go to hair school. And I was

sitting in my car and I was saying stand. And I was like, man, my life is going to matter for something one day. And songs like that and songs like he's preparing me, I knew God was providing me with what I needed for later in life. I didn't see it. I didn't know where it was coming from. I didn't even know that meeting Warren would turn into this, but it was was those songs that would hold me and encourage me and sometimes rock me to sleep. I was sitting under the table in my mom's dining room singing, he's preparing me. I knew God was preparing me for something. I just didn't know what the heck it was.

And so gospel music that can do that is what I want to sing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like just give people hope and give people Jesus. And that's what it does. And so we can't abandon that. We can't abandon what Andra Crouch and,

Halea Jackson, even though I didn't really listen to it, that's like more of my grandma. We can't abandon what they did. She got Martin through. Right. You know what I mean? Like, it was a point where everybody was only calling Donnie McClurkin to sing stand. You know what I mean? Or we fall down.

You know what I'm saying? And there are seasons of that. There was a time when they was only calling Yolanda Adams, you know, to sing through the storm or open my heart. I went to a prison and they were singing, open my heart and shackles. I was like, y'all don't, don't just long way. I'm coming from a little bit of prison. But they were so free in there. Shackles.

It's the way it took me five seconds to understand what you just said. They sung shackles at the prison. Okay. And they was jamming. They were so joy-filled. I was gospel music. Because Shackles is about being free. Who in prison doesn't want to sing about being free?

That's so weird. But wonderful. Yeah. Every time I experience and I'm like, man, God. I think one thing about this conversation is that, especially on social media, we are speaking about it as these kind of big entities when its entities ran driven by people. And, you know, so for you to talk about what the enemy is up to as far as division is concerned, I guess I want you to speak into, speak more into how do we resist that division? How do we fight against it? How do we come to get?

Like, what does that look like? Because these people, these execs, these consumers, these songwriters, these producers, like these are all people. Yeah. It means take the meeting anyway. It means have the conversation again and again. It means keep knocking at the door. It means sometimes going around the back door to have access. It means collaboration.

it means forgiveness It means confrontation sometime And I don't mean that In like in a fighting kind of way But it means confront the issue Have the conversation I remember being at the Dev Awards And it was a panel

And it was like third day And Toby Mac And some other people on there And my crazy self Why y'all play black artists on CGM Radio? And you sawed

Oh, that's what you said Yeah I mean she was I was like, I'm here. I was like, what does that mean? Y'all sing about Jesus? We sing about Jesus. Sometimes you just have to have the conversation.

Yeah, yeah. You have to be bold enough, but it has to come from a place of love. And here's where I think the enemy manipulates us. When it comes from a place of you already carry the spirit of offense, you're already angry because you want to be more than you are. You're not going to ask that question based in love. You feel like somebody took something from you. And maybe they did in some ways. And maybe it was intentional in some places.

it absolutely is intentional. But the only thing that I can go back to is ain't no way God gave me something but not a way to get it to people. So that's my resolve when it comes to... You ain't got to defend a gift that God gave you. Those places and spaces where I feel like they won't open the door from me.

I'll say, okay, Lord, well, show me my door because clearly that isn't it. And a lot of times people feel like, if I, if I'm on CCM radio, I'm bigger, do they have more stations? Yes. Have they been around longer? Yes.

Are they more FM stations? Yes, there's a lot of those things that come into play as well. That's practical. Yeah, I've been in gospel radio with Reach and Radio 1 for 10 years now. Yeah. And now I have a weekend show. So there are people who still listen to the radio and still listen to gospel music. And we're playing Luther Barnes.

We're playing Mississippi Mass. You know, all of that. We're playing La Cray. We're playing a little bit of everything. And so it is diverse, but a lot of people now listen on their own. They create their own place. list, whether Spotify or Pandora, some people still do that. My mama going to listen to everything on YouTube.

She sends so many YouTube reels. I love you, Mommy, so much. You know, that's the new streaming series. It is, it is. If you had to give an encouragement and a challenge to up-income CCM and gospel artists, what would that be? How do we collaborate not for the sake of personal elevation as an artist? that we not collaborate just so we can get on the tour

but a divine collaboration pray for divine collaboration that allows the gospel to go out to the world I think all artists Christian gospel all of us everybody struggles with certain things because we're artists we're fickle, we're emotional

you know we want our artists to be our creativity and our music to be out there. What does that mean? And so we have to wrestle with the insecure side of ourselves, me included, and not get offended by things. Just a lot of things that I believe how we should comb over our hearts a little bit more.

That's good. Like, imagine like if I'm trying to untangle this, I'm going to have to start down here first because if I start here, it's just going to not. And a lot of times we won't start at the top. So Lord, take us to where the bottom of this is and then help me. just slowly climb and understand for me first and then once I have a good picture of what you want me to do then I can have a conversation with somebody else

but while I'm still angry might not be the best time to have that conversation if I struggle with my ego and my pride I probably shouldn't have the conversation especially if I'm just going to tell you all that I've done you know? Yeah yeah yeah because I don't know nobody that won a Grammy and that they won souls because they won a Grammy

you didn't. We weren't called to that. That is a benefit. That's the business side. That's the natural side. We do need to take business serious. We do need real managers. We do, you know, need to have real structure. A lot of times we're putting prayer where we should have put planning. We're putting, you know what I mean? God will make a way. There should have been strategy. You know what I mean? And I think once we take those things seriously and not just over spiritualize at all, because sometimes we do that, just because you're anointed, you don't take care of business, right? You know? You're trying to figure out why you're not invited nowhere, but... Yeah, wow. Wow. I got... You're not on time, nowhere. You're not nice. You don't speak to nobody.

You're annoyingly. You can kill it. Yeah, you can. But off the stage. Yeah. I got another question for you. Like, you know, a lot of us have been listening to you for years, you know, since we've been little. You know what I'm saying?

And so you is like an auntie to a lot of people out there. And with all of this stuff, you know, popping up in our culture on social media, It can start unnecessary arguments, fights, and stuff like that. And so I guess what would your word be for the consumer? Who feels like when they see these things, they have to choose? That's a great question. What would your, you know, advice be to them? The consumer, I would say, you don't have to join the reindeer games.

You know, I've been really busy in this season. So some of the things I see online and some of the things. Sometimes I really don't have capacity, the mental or emotional capacity, to even consume it all. So I just say fix it, Jesus. You know what I mean? Like when you're more, my focus is my husband, my kids, and what God has called me to do. But the reason why I'm asking is, because I know people might hear certain things and they might be offended. Like, I love Mary Mary.

They take offense because they love you so much. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's personal. It's personal. Like, what would you say to that person who grew up on God's? music, hear certain things. Gospel music isn't geologically sound.

Gospel music is got, you know, and they take it personal and they don't want to listen to CCM because they're taking it person because they love Mary Mary so much. If you say you're not going to listen to it, who wins? Huh? Who wins?

How do you grow? I felt that. Y'all ain't felt that? Yes. And I think that's what I always kind of, that's how I govern my heart. If you say I'm going to cut this off, who wins?

Wow. That's good. Because is there somebody you were assigned to? Is there something that the Lord wants you to hear in that song in whatever season you are in your life? You know what I mean? Just keep Jesus at the center. Yeah. Not anything else.

That's such a good, golly perspective. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's such a good, gaudy perspective because you're a gospel artist. And so you can be on here being, you know what I'm saying? But it's obvious that you want people to know Jesus. I do. I really do.

More than anything. And that's, I feel like everybody should be that way. And he'll reach you where you are. Listen, there's people that love my guy who be online saying, Jesus Christ, like, that's their dude. I love him. Mike's serving. I follow him on social media. But then there's some people who don't get it, the tattoos, the pop lock and it's not for them.

Whatever's for you. The pop lock, it's kind of awesome. Jesus Christ. He'd be killing it, right? And there's somebody who's from the street, somebody who grew up in that culture, who sees him and go, oh, I can serve the Lord with how I look. Yeah. There's some churches you can't come in with tattoos everywhere. They're not going to receive you.

You know what I'm saying? There's some if you come too dressed up, they're going to be like, where are you going? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I would never wear pants growing up to church. Everybody has a different thing. So if you connect with somebody and you feel offended, don't let that offense block you you anyway.

My aunt would say this to me. The enemy will start in January to destroy you by December. So he'll plant a little seed of, oh, I don't like this part. person. And then you meet that person because you're supposed to work with that person, but you're mad and offended because of something that they said that you saw online or comment or whatever. You know what I'm saying? What have God called you to that person, to that genre? Yeah. What you're going to do? If you've been running your mouth, then you look crazy because you've been talking about them, but now you got a song with them. So just be careful of the enemy

planting seeds to make sure that sometimes God has an assignment. Maybe it's a few years away. you don't want to miss it because you entertained foolishness too much. That's good. That's good. You know what I mean? I've been to the Dev Awards. I've hosted. I've been to the Stella Awards. I've hosted. The business is the business and it is what it is. I don't ascribe that to God did something to me.

You know what I mean? I've been invited. I've been uninvited. I've won. I've lost much more than I've won. But I don't vilify or demonize. The same way I don't praise it. You know what I mean? It is something that we do to celebrate each other, right? And so we have these different genres because people are different. And what the enemy wants to do is let me make sure they don't get together because if they get together, they're going to tear my kingdom down. And that's what we have to realize. It is okay to be different. Whether you're seeing Jesus on the line or shackles

in your church. Is it getting people to Jesus? Is it getting you closer? Is it breaking down that hard thing in your heart that makes you addicted to yourself? You know what I mean? That's good. Is it making you more like Christ? Is it giving you the ability to go through the tough stuff? You know what I mean? like the churches that you come to when they don't have your money or, you know what I mean? The places to go there and the sound system is wrong. Do you still sing, right? Me and Tina had that they literally had chairs with dollars on it.

We're going to count this money out. I said, it's okay. We go out here and sing anyway. Now, you knew I was coming, but I didn't make that about my ego. I didn't make that about my money. God, I'm here for some reason. Somebody in the audience needs what I have. Let me just do that.

And I think that we've focused on us and what I need and our boundaries. and I'm not minimizing that because, yes, you do need healthy boundaries and borders around doing things. But sometimes God calls you to the difficult, uncomfortable, unfluffy. Y'all barely like me, but I'm here for a reason. Listen, I had a whole pastor invite me and Tina. After we finished singing, we sat on the front row only for him to say, it was here in Atlanta. I'm scared. Only for him to say, well, that was cute.

Wow. Is my singer here? Who? Absolutely. Yeah. We didn't stop singing. I didn't say I'm never going to church again. Yeah.

That guy was just crazy. The disrespect. God needed, I needed to be tough. We ain't tough. We sometimes spiritual whims. Everything can't hurt your feelings. That's a fact. You know what I mean?

Especially if you called to the mainstream. We were called to places where the audience was full of people who was ready to hear somebody else. Yeah. Wow. We sang in a club in London. And before we came on, they were singing the thong song. And at that time, Cisco.

Cisco. At that time, me and Tina were coming. and out singing, thank you. Well, the way he was riffing and running at the end of that song, he kind of He sounded, he sounded like to say it. I've never heard a man sing about a thong. When you listen to Drewil,

I said Sisko want to lead worship so bad. Oh, Lord. He wants to lead worship. Bad. I'm like, bro. Yes, no, it was, it was, it was, this man wanted to be a quartet. He wanted to be a quartet.

Yes, he does. For real. I have two main thoughts, and then we can all go home. Okay, real quick thought. One, for, again, I think one of my hearts for this conversation is just the idea of diversity in the sense of how musical diversity gives us different experiences of God. Same God, just different avenues by which we can experience him. When you read the Psalms, you see there is lament.

There is praise, there's different levels to praise. There's different levels to lament. You know what I'm saying? You got Psalm 51. You got Psalm 88. You got Psalm 136 where it's just the same refrain. Like some of y'all be like, some songs are too basic. Have you ever read Psalm 136?

You know what I'm saying? Thanks to the Lord for a steadfast love endures forever. He just said that over and over and over. Like repetition is not manipulation. Ooh, I like that. It's a mechanism of meditation. That's how you get stuff in your life. system.

Yes. And so I think some of my heart is being willing to consider that opening ourselves up to different genres, different songs, different artists, allows us to, and I'm talking to worship leaders and people that curate worship experience and pastors gives our people just access to the Lord in different ways. I ain't saying you got to introduce country. I'm just saying like if there's certain biases, deal with that. I think that's my thing.

If there's a bias driving how you choose your worship set, deal with that. Yeah. But I also want to speak to Ephesians 5 verse 19 says, do not get drunk with wine for that is this is NSB. This ain't CSB because it would have said, Yeah, it's a dispensation. I don't know. But be filled with the spirit.

Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord. Some commentators believe that that portion about spiritual songs is distinguished between psalms and hymns, meaning the Psalms and the Hems are songs that have already been written. The spiritual songs are songs that will be produced by the spirit. And I think one time I read an article about how in America in particular, 80 to 90% of the songs that are being sung in our churches are songs that are produced by five churches. And that scares me. That scares me. Because that means that most of our congregational theology is being shaped by the theology and the experiences and the culture of only a handful of churches. but what is the culture of your church?

What is the theology of your church? What is the vision of your church? What is the giftedness in your church? And so I just, I guess I want to empower and embolden the songwriters in your church to write, create. What are the, like, the musicians, y'all can come together and y'all can make music for y'all churches. You don't have, like, yeah, we love elevation.

I love, like, we can sing their songs, but y'all can make your songs too. Yeah. And imagine the power of that. And I want to. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Imagine the power of like your congregation,

creating songs that rose up. Yeah. From your congregation. You understand what? And it ain't even like your congregation got to make a worship album for your church. That ain't got to be the thing. Yes. This is just our family making our family song.

Yes. Yeah. That's all. I think that's great. Speaking of Ty, we were on a panel and he gave this a. that I thought was brilliant. And he talked about the magnificent nature of creation. What it must have looked like that first seven days.

What it must have looked like when he made a whale? Did it come up and splash and do this big thing like a show? What did it look like when he put the stars in the skies? How did the rest of the earth respond? We weren't there yet. Was the earth applauding God's greatness? That's a crazy amazing show. So why do we present gospel in this docile, humble, meek and lowly when God does these crazy fantastical things like the Red Sea?

Yeah. Or make an arc and it hasn't rain. What is? We don't even know what rain is yet. Make an arc. It's too big. You sound crazy. Yeah.

So when they say you sound crazy, it might be God saying, this just has never been done. And it needs to be done in such a way till everybody is like, what? What? What, girl, you're singing about how you, how did you put those chords together? Because sometimes he wants to amaze us just because he's a magnificent. That's great. God, everything else in the earth obeys God. That's it.

There is no season that says, you know, I just don't want to be spring anymore. You know what I mean? No fish has ever walked out of the ocean. He says, you know, I just really feel like a dog today. And I'm just going to, you know what I mean? Only humans. We're the only ones that he gave the beauty of choice. He wants us to choose him and see him as this magnificent God.

But even in church sometimes we don't. You know what I mean? I'm churchy, but I'm not like that. What does that mean? I'm gospeled. I'm not like that. You less godly than I don't, what are you really saying? If we serve this big and magnificent God does these great things, why wouldn't you just seek him and say, Lord, what am I?

What are we singing today? What are we singing today? What are we doing today? That's good. That has been my prayer many days in the studio. What we're writing? What we're singing today? And I don't gauge his voice to me, whether it was right or wrong or whether I heard right or wrong on did the

song make it on the charts. That's not the gauge. That's good. You know what I mean? How many people, that's not the gauge. Because the enemy manipulates stuff too. Keep them right here. This is comfortable enough to not. I want just enough Jesus to get what I want, but not enough Jesus to change me because I like myself. I think that's what I mean. I think a lot of times we can, I think multiple genres can be so fixated on a formula that we don't even see the, the length of our creativity. Yeah. And how God can stretch our media. because we're so catered to what we think people want to hear. Yeah, we're scared of people.

We want to do what works. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And so I do think both genres do it. All genres do it to a certain extent. Everyone does it. Podcasters do it. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I want to do what works.

Yeah, yeah. When the spirit might be leading me to do what he wants. Yes. And then we struggle with the spirit of intimidation too. I'm intimidated by the people. God, I know I'm serving you, but they might not like it. they might not like it. So Lord, we're going to have to do something different because I need their acceptance and approval. Okay. I got a question for both of y'all. Okay. And then,

is Eric God, go. I'm sorry. Where is the balance, though? Because I'm a creative. I'm a writer, right? I've heard both CCM and I've heard both gospel. I'm like, this could have been, this could have been way more creative, but I feel like y'all trying to cater to a crowd. But at the same time, you still got to write to what people like. Where is the balance? everybody's not a good songwriter This song worked I'm gonna make another song just like this Because I know this works

But God may be calling you to do something else But it's different and uncomfortable I guess the nature of my whole thing No one liked any of my songs Or Mary Mary songs No one liked them at first Not God and me, not yesterday They're like yesterday?

They were like yesterday? No shit, no Shackles was on mainstream radio then they started playing it. Oh, the song, Yesterday? Mm-hmm. How didn't you like that song? I don't know.

How do you know they didn't like that song? That song was everywhere. Oh, they said it. They wouldn't play it on radio. Now, whether it was because they wanted to play somebody else's song, I don't know. You know, there's people mixed in that stuff too. But you can't do it based on just what people. You have to do what God has called you to do.

Because if you're doing just what people like, then that's your God. You know what I mean? If you're doing it just because the label said, then the label is your God. I thank God that we had a publishing deal and a production deal with Warren so no one ever told us what to write and the album we have freedom we have freedom

that's good so we can say hey here's the album they didn't tell us you have to work with this one or you have to work with that one that's it you know what I mean if there was only one record that we did because they said if you do this we're gonna push it mainstream

they ain't push it nowhere that's it okay it still was a good record it still went gold we still you know one award it's still straight walking is on that album, the something big album. And, you know, what God calls for and what people are calling for ain't always the same thing. So we have to be sensitive to what he's saying and sensitive to what we're seeing.

And if you want to see something different, say, God, am I the avenue for change? Am I the one to change it? But you'll never change it just complaining. That's good. You'll never complain it just fussing. You'll never complain it. You'll never fix it with a comment on social media. That ain't going to fix it.

I don't care how good your post is. I don't think there's any executive that sees your post and go, you know, we should change our practices. That's what I said, take the meeting, offer a different suggestion. I love when people in the structure of the business give me a call and say, hey, we'd love to know your thoughts. That's a huge compliment to me, but I know my voice has influence. So I'm not just going to throw it out there because I saw something that made me mad. I'm not just going to throw it out there. I want to be wise even with the influence that I have.

And that's really, if I could say something to the artist, the argument. artists that have influence on social media, you got to be a little bit more careful. That's good. Why did he give you this platform just so people can see you and now you can say whatever you want? Be responsible with the platform. Wow. You know how many times I have to take stuff down?

I'd be like, well, Lord, everybody else is saying. He'd be like, mm-mm. Can't do it. Yeah. So I'm like, all right, I'd rather please you than them. Amen. I've had people unfollow because I've posted certain things. Yeah.

Wow. Okay. I'm not going to get in heaven by my followers on social media. That's a fact. So real random fact before we leave because it just came to my mind. Okay. The first time I seen Shackles video, y'all remember the box? The box is you had to pay 50 cents to watch a video.

And I never had, it was like a channel where they played videos, but people had to call in to pay like 50 cents to watch the video. And I ain't had no money, obviously, because I'm like six or seven. So you just, you watch it. You're like, oh, somebody pay. And I was like in the back of my mom's job because you was at Wendy's in like the video. and the video came on while I was in the back. And I was like, I like this song. I don't know what it came to my mouth.

I was like, oh, I saw it on the box. I just remember in the old church I used to go to. They used to play, I can't give up now every. They was going through it. I said, are we always at? Are we always? It's like, listen, one of my friends' mom said, can you do another record?

Because I don't want to hear yesterday again. I want to hear something. Got you. Go get it. Got it got to get me on the way. Well, thank you. But before we go, I got to say what you got to say something. I don't know if you don't like this.

I probably will. So I had this song that I thought Jackie would be perfect on. Oh. And I asked you to be on the song. You asked me to do poetry. Is that, that's when you're talking about? No.

I asked you, I asked you to, I was like, I just need 16 bars on a song. You asked me to rap? Yeah, you said no. Several times. You gave me a strong no. It could have been a collaboration, y'all. I remember she's, I remember.

I remember she said, I remember she told me, she was like, Eric, it came on when we do poetry? I don't do poetry no more. When was this? No, I think you thought it was poetry. But it was a song that I did. And I was like, man, it would be dope if she was like right here in the song. You were like, no, no, I don't do that.

I was like, I think I thought you wanted me to do poetry. Oh. I think that's what it was. Because I- People still ask us to do poetry, and we do not do poetry anymore. Why don't you talk to poetry no more? You're so good at it. I don't write.

I'm just so, that's just another part of, my brain doesn't even function in that, like I'm in the rapping, writing space where it's like I would have to retrain my brain to write that way and I don't care to do that. And so I think when you asked me, I was like, yeah, I don't even write, I don't even think in that way.

I think if I knew it was rap, it would have been a yes. Really? I need to find that text. Noted. So I am so sorry. The text did say poetry, I remember. Did it? Yeah.

I don't think. It said poetry. Did it? Because didn't I suggest Jeanette to do it? Because I suggested another poet. I think you did. Yeah, I thought it was poetry. Because Jeanette don't rap.

Okay. Yeah, I take that one personal. But I don't let it go. I was like, it's fine. Wasn't supposed to be it. Yeah, if it was, if it was music, that would have been automatic. But I'm going to send you something. I'm so.

I got you with the rap. I'm a song. I'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad we talked to. See, that's why people got to talk through stuff. Right. Like, I did know, girl. Well, we thank you, Ms. Erica Campbell, for coming through. I hope I answered something.

No, you answered a lot. I really believe that this is helpful. I want y'all to listen, process, talk to your people through this. Because to us, all of us, this is bigger than, this is just about the Lord made music. The Lord made music. He didn't make these industries. but they do exist. And so we want to live within these industries,

benefit from the music that is being produced by these people that God has gifted, these people that God has positioned, these people that God has exalted and favored and all the things. And that like, hey, we don't want to be divisive. And by we, I mean, all of us in the body of Christ,

we want to be wise stewards of our words. We want to be wise stewards of how we lead our churches and all the stuff. And so this is a discipleship conversation. conversation to me and a worship conversation to me and a love conversation to me. And so I think it's important. Like this is important. Especially we listen to more music than we listen to Bible. So this is important. It's important. And I think that we can't pick and choose who God calls. Yeah. And sometimes we, you know, gauge and judge because we may know some of their mistakes, you know. And so

we try to decide whether God can use them or not the same way they didn't think Paul should be one of the disciples because he was just killing Christians. Why do you want to use him? All through scriptures, people that other people didn't think should be used. You know, we don't know why God uses certain people. Some of your favorite singers who have struggled out loud and said that they were struggling out loud and are still anointed and still get invited places. I think we should have a little bit more grace and understanding, but we should have accountable conversations. And, you know, not ignoring that there is mess in the industry, not ignoring that there's still racism here.

But God can still get glory out of our lives and out of our song. Whether you sing it this way or that way, whether you have more chords and more harmonies, whether you holler and do runs, God can still use you for his glory. We just have to make sure our heart is right. And that's the thing that bothers me the most. I don't want you to be arrogant because you think you're more connected to God. Because now you've allowed the enemy. Just a little, the Bible doesn't make no space.

No foothole. I imagine that to be the front tip of my shoe, just enough. For the devil to wiggle his way in and just whisper in your ear. They don't got it. You got it. That's why I always hate it when church was to go, because over here. The implication is they're not doing it over there?

We ain't even better that church. Why are you judging that church? Leave that church alone. Sing your song to your God in a way that brings him glory and makes other people come to him. And you don't have to beat up other people if they don't sing the same style as you. Wow.

I feel like the First lady and you just came out. That's what that was. First lady. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, you, you're welcome. Bye y'all.

With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by hop and music by swoop. Thank you for listening.

Now go with God.