With The Perrys - Let's Talk Headship: A Conversation (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 24, 2022

Let’s be clear— headship and dominance are not the same thing. Christ-like headship requires two things that may be difficult for some husbands: sacrifice and vulnerability. We chat about what real headship is, what it isn’t, and why it can be scary. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, welcome to season five of 30 minutes with the airs. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Yeah. Welcome back. What's up with y'all? How y'all doing out there? Beautiful people? That wasn't a good intro. I mean, it was better than what Kimberra-Rale did because she wouldn't have called nobody beautiful. But, you know, not sneak to hear nor anything. You don't know what she did? You see? Yeah, I know what she did. That's what. Why we got to talk about that? Because you started it. No, you started it.

You call these people you can't see beautiful. And it made me think of it. If you made. I should call people that she could see ugly. That's what happened. She said, y'all ugly. If you made it an image of God, you're beautiful. Silence.

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I like to use the word that some people just aren't universally attracted. Okay. So it's not calling them ugly. That's just another way to say people ugly. No. It's saying you might not be attractive to everybody, but you are attractive to somebody.

There's somebody for everybody. Oh, my goodness. No. All right. Yeah, I understand what you're talking about today. Goodness gracious. I'm not doing an intro no more. I mean, because even, you know, in the Bible, like Rachel and Leah, like one of them was cut than another one.

So even the Bible makes distinctions between your faces. That's true. And I'm not out here saying, you know, I'll just say, I think most of us are regular-faced. What are you talking? No, I remember I used to watch America's Next-Tal model, and I'm like, I feel like this is the 1% of the 1% of the world. Like, I don't think everybody is actually like top-notch beautiful. I think most of us get by.

Like, it's like, oh, like, we're just cute. But who's the, who's the, who's the term of that? Like, I mean, I see the term. But, yeah. Obviously culture. Because, I mean, in the early 90s, you could walk around with a pencil. pencil eyebrow and that was considered beautiful. Yeah.

Now you look a little Yeah and so like even body types It's kind of like in the 90s you can be a skeletor It's like oh she's so beautiful like she's gonna die Walk around Just a little shoulder blade popping out So that she's so gorgeous And it's like now you know what I'm saying

Everybody got little BBLs You know what I mean? You like BBLs? Do you want me to get one to them? Absolutely not Why not? Because I don't want one I think it's I'm not gonna yeah I don't want one. No, you don't need to get a BVL because you're beautiful just the way you are.

Oh, so I'm specifically attractive to you. Absolutely. You ain't got four years for nothing. Wow. We'll be talking about the day. Anyway, I don't even know the title of this, but it's something around headship, masculinity, maybe complementarianism. We don't even really know.

Most of these podcasts, we have a general idea of what we want to talk about. And then it just kind of goes where it goes. And it's always stuff that we talked about in the house. Oh, yeah. This is always a, what do you call that? Like, this is a pouring over, a rehashing of what we've already discussed. And so that's probably why it's not as nuanced as it could be. One, we got 30 minutes, too.

We just out here just really just talking. Yeah, we're talking. So the thing we're going to hit all this. the bullet points it's crazy yeah so what so what do you want to touch on first okay so the bible in ephesians 5 says that men uh is the head of the wife like christ is the head of the church that don't that don't make nobody feel good why doesn't it make men feel good huh why doesn't it make people feel good because i think that the the the idea or the picture of a man being a head is like a man is in a position of authority over me.

Yeah. Period. And so one, that ain't cute. Like, I don't want a man to be in a position of authority over me, one. Because it's some women that like that. Oh, I can't wait to my king come home so I could submit to him tonight. Do they, though? Because I am very skeptical of every.

It's some women out there like that. Listen, let me explain. I am very skeptical of anybody that's like, oh, I just can't wait to be. submissive oh my god like submissus is the best thing in the world because the sinful nature is deceptive okay because to me if you're excited about submission you probably don't actually know what it is because if submission it's just cooking brownies and cooking cookies that's not that's not submission that's just you're just a chef like that's just not that's not what that is like so let's talk about it you get i'm saying like submission is going to come against what you want and what you want to do

oftentimes so anyway I don't know how we got there. So, yeah, I think the idea of headship in a marriage is off-putting and anxiety-inducing. And I think, for one, is that because of the sinful nature, everybody wants to be an authority over everybody. That's one. Two, some of us, not all of us, have not had good history with men, whether it's our fathers, whether it's with past relationships, even, you know, friendships that have made that seem like a safe choice to be in, you know, be under the authority of a other man.

And then three, y'all got issues. You know what I'm saying? Like it's easy to say, oh, I'm going to trust God as an authority figure. He's perfect. He's sinless. Y'all aren't. And so let's talk about it. Yeah, I think a lot of times when people think about headship, they can automatically have

like this negative, this negative thought. And I think, I think it's because of a couple of reasons. I think, like you said, I think because of the abuse of so many men in the past or just seeing so many relationships and so many marriages being modeled in the wrong way. But also culture. Culture teaches us that headship is dominance. And it's really not. Like I think for us to really look at Heship in the most biblical way, I think we have to go back to the beginning of creation, which is Genesis when God created man and woman. And when he creates a man and woman, we see that before he created Eve, he created Adam. And then he gave Adam the authority to name all of these animals. Right. And so he begins to name all of the animals and all

of this. And so when Eve joins him later on, you know, God says, I have given you dominion over the earth. The word dominion, the word dominance, the rise from the word dominion. And so we see creation having dominance over a particular thing in creation, but not with each other, not with man and woman, right? Right. And so we see like Adam and Eve, like, like Adam is the one who first names all the animals before Eve is even created. He's given the mandate to watch over this garden. He's given a mandate not to eat from this tree. He doesn't repeat these commands back to Eve.

But when Eve comes on later on and join him, God trusts Adam to uphold the integrity of what he originally, the command that he originally gave them in a garden. But the whole dominance thing, we don't see that God gave Adam dominance over Eve. we see that God gave humanity dominance over creation, right? And so men, so when it comes to dominance, I think I want to just set a tone for just what dominance is for humanity.

Someone would argue, we're going to get back to your point, but someone would argue that Genesis 3, when it says that a part of the curse that God gives to Adam and Eve, that your desire will be for your husband and he will run. rule over you. Some would argue that that is actually the beginning of patriarchy so that when we get to Ephesians 5, the headship is more so a consequence of, or the notion that a man is supposed to be an authority figure over a woman is a part of the fall and not endemic to creation. I've heard that argument before. But before we even get to the argument, what I want to focus on is the original. The original. The original.

the design that God. To show the antagonistic point of view. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I think it's important for us to get there. But I think it's important for us to focus on the original, the design of, of the, in the order of creation, of God, creating this man and creating, you know, the animals, giving them the authority to name the animals. And so, like, look at, I want us to look at, you know, like, when, when Adam looked at. that all the animals was like, man, like I have all of these animals that I named and all of these animals have, you know, a helper suitable for him and I still don't have anybody, right?

And that was the first time in the Bible that God said it's not something that's not good. When he said, it's not good for man to be alone. And then so when he creates Eve, the first human words we see recorded was a poem, was Adam looking at this woman and spitting the poem and saying, this is bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. She should be called woman because she was taken out of a man. And so we see Adam, he doesn't see somebody that he can dominate and he can rule or he can control, but he sees somebody that he can love. He's somebody that would help and fulfill the will of God for his life.

And so I do think that it's important for us when men, and particularly think about headship, we have to think about headship in this way, in this way of looking at our wives as somebody who can come alongside of. us and help us complete the will of God for our lives. So I think what sin did, you know, to go back to your point was sin messed everything up. It didn't just disconnect us from the father, but it disconnected us from right relationship with one another. And so everything got messed up. And so a man became more dominant, men became more domineering in their pride. women became less submissive in helping a man complete that that you know but like i think what real headship is is christlike sacrifice for your spouse and i think uh what submission is is a it's a

woman coming along side of man not not becoming less than a man not becoming less thanificate in a man but helping that man and i think vice versa help man helping that woman fulfill the will that God has for her life. And so I don't, I don't think that we should think about headship in a sense of dominance because the Bible doesn't, um, painted that way. I think what's so hard is how what you're saying is so inconsistent with what we see. Yeah. And so it can be hard to believe that headship is actually a good thing when all you, not all, but a lot of times throughout here, history. All you seeing is men in positions of power abusing it so that women are less than they are treated as less valuable. Less valuable. Their intellect is not honored. Their positions

are not privileged like their bodies are taking advantage of and used for their own sexual, perverted purposes. Like, all you see is ninjas taking headship and using it for demonic means. Yeah. What are we supposed to do with that? I think that we're supposed to correct it with modeling true Christ-like headship into mission. And what is that?

I think that it looks like a man. Because I think that they're, I think it's all jacked up. I think human relationships are all jacked up. because of the fall, right? And so the way we see God and the way we see each other is just jacked up since the beginning, right, of the fall of humanity. And so because of that, I think that you're always going to have women who abuse men, but you're always going to see more of an abuse from the other side because men historically have been the more, you know, dominant, you know, you know, sex throughout history. And so I think that modeling Christ-like headship is showing,

you know, that real Christ-like leadership is sacrificial. It is not necessarily making all the decisions. I did a podcast with this guy a couple of weeks ago, and it was a podcast. This guy has a majority of like men following. And we were doing this podcast, and they really wanted to know in this podcast what is you know Christ like headship like you know like one of the guys on the podcast was like I feel like I should just make majority of the decisions and I pushed back on that and I was just like I don't think that's I don't think that's what red flag I don't think that's what I don't think that's necessarily what headship is because like because one I'm not saying that a man and I'm not saying I'm not the leader of my home but what I think a good leader does right of a home is

recognizing the strengths of those who he's who he's leading and so if someone that i'm leading is stronger than in an area than me right um i'm going to trust them to to to drive the boat sometimes right i would be a bad leader right and i would be an arrogant and errant and egotistical and a stupid leader to be quite frank if i if i if i if i if i try to uh to to to suffocate someone's uh strengths for the sake of my leadership, right? Or your ego, really? And my ego, right? And so, like, that's what a real leader does.

And so we kind of went back in this banter. Some of you guys might hate this podcast. But no, seriously, in the podcast, we went on this banter. And it wasn't there. We were disagreeing, but we just kind of saw things differently. And I gave him this example of, you know, basically he wanted to know what is, like, What does leadership mean then if I can't make the decision? Like to him, it didn't make sense, right?

And I, you know, and I gave him this example of when I worked at Radio Shack before I started doing poetry heavy. And I was really close with my boss, the manager. Her name was Martha. She was a great, great leader, you know what I'm saying? And I just had strengths that she just didn't have. You know, we sold majority cell phones. I was better at interacting with people on the floor.

And so when a lot of people came inside the store, a lot of people thought that I was the manager. You know what I'm saying? And that's because I didn't try to like take over her job, take over her role. But she gave me the freedom to do what I was strong at for the benefit of the store. Long story sure, what I told him was I said, even though I was kind of like, you know, making a lot of the decisions and telling her we should do this, telling her she should do that. when the district manager came and checked on the store, I didn't have to answer to the district manager. She did.

Right. And it always showed me, and it always put me back in right perspective that even though I'm, you know, she's letting me drive the boat sometimes. Like when the district manager comes, I have to, she has to answer to the district manager and I don't. And I say that to say this, that a leadership for a husband kind of looks the same. It doesn't look like we have to dominate every. single decision because the reality is our wives are going to be gifted in areas that we're not gifted

in our wife's going to have strengths in areas that we're not strong in but i think that sometimes christ like leadership you know looks like recognizing the strengths of your wife and allowing her to you know to make moves because not only do you trust god but you trust the woman that god is giving you and so what would you say because i'm only anticipating a objective of and even fears. What would you say to a man that hears you say that? And they fear that giving their wife too much room will eliminate their own authority or control over their household and their marriage.

Does it make sense? I think that's what trust has to come. Okay. That's good. It's just not only do you have to trust God, but I don't say this to trying to sound mushy. I completely trust you. I trust your wisdom You don't try to boobo on my

My headship You don't And if you did You know what kind of person I am You know I'll get angry Or She said I'm getting a little

Spicy No but I'm saying though Like it would cause friction between us And it has And we've had to work through that But it should Because I feel like In the same way

If I demean or try to like undermine who you are as a woman, I feel like you should push back at it. It has to be a mutual respect. And so I think that you've given me the confidence to say, man, I trust your leadership in this way. And I'm also giving you the confidence to say, man, I trust your leadership in this way because you are a leader. Like even though I'm the leader of my home, you still are a great leader in your own respect. And so for me to muffle that does not serve my home. And so that's why I try to tell men when I, when I mentor them, when I talk to them, for you to muffle the leadership of your what?

You mean muscle? Muscle or muffle? I don't know. Oh, muzzle. Muzzle. No, no, see, that's, this is a perfect example. Okay. Like, do I know.

Or being a helper? Or do I wait? Do I submit now or later? Maybe saying muffle, like, don't speak. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Muzzle. Muzzle. Yes.

Muzzle. You said it's so strongly. Yeah, yeah. If you muzzle, like, if you try to, like, like, let's say taint. Or, like, you know, restrict. Yeah, like the natural leadership qualities in your wife, I think it just doesn't serve your home. And I've seen our home be benefited when I allow you to operate. Like, because I can easily like, be like, oh, who are you to come and say?

I'm the leader. And it's like. It would make for a really terrible marriage. It would. It would. But I don't even do it. I don't even do it because I'm trying to keep peace in our marriage because I think that's what passivity comes.

Okay, explain that. Because I think that a lot of people don't, a lot of men don't, don't speak up because they're trying to keep peace or they're trying to like, or they don't want to like make their wives mad or they, you know, or letting their wives kind of like just take control or run over them. I don't think that we should do that either. Do you want to mention your conversation with Brian? Absolutely. Absolutely. Not even my conversation with Brian, but, what conversation you're talking about? Because I think passivity is interesting.

I know what you're talking about. Because we usually, I think passivity is a kind of certain personality. So it's a timid, mild man. You don't come off as a passive man. But Brian, our old pastor, actually called you out for passivity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He called me out. And it was the first time somebody called me out being passive.

He was like, you're not passive because you don't let people talk to you any kind of way. You're not a quiet, timid man. But sometimes you can fall. you can get into this relaxed mode where you just want Jackie to make all the decisions because you don't feel like it. That's still a form of passivity. And I was like, oh, that is. And so I had to, I had, you know what I'm saying? And I thank him for that because I was like, okay, because it kind of got easy for me not to think about things at times. And I was like, okay, let me, let me, let me, let me step up in the area. But also, too, we went to church with a guy at the time

who, who a lot of people looked at because he was complete opposite from me. You know, when people came to the church, people didn't see you talking. People saw me leading the evangelism team. People saw me yada yada yada yada yada like talking and you know, you know, and all this stuff and like teaching in the church. But this particular person that was going to our church, he was very quiet. He seemed timid at times. And a lot of people looked at him as a passive man. But then when I got the chance to know him, I was like, no, he's actually not passive. And I think a lot of times we equate passivity to people's personality types. When it's just not, I don't think it's fair.

And so I think that even the way, even the way we see, even the way I think we kind of like misjudged like headship, I think that the way we look at passivity is off. Because what's interesting about this conversation is with that person, what we actually saw was gentleness. Yeah. Which is a trait of a qualified elder. But what we look for in our elders is authoritarianism. And so we actually need to be looking for men that aren't just lions, but men that are also lambs.

Yeah, that's good. That's okay. Yeah. But do you see the irony in that? So I think that sometimes we say we don't want a man that's domineering and they have to control us. But at the same time, a woman can say, oh, if he acts this way, I don't respect them. It's like, you want a man that's dominating everything around. around him, him except you.

And it's like, right? You want to, you want this. I do like aggression. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And so like, so, so I think what, what women have to say is like, man, you want this aggressive man. You can't all the way blame him if that aggression sometimes spill over to your

relationship. You're not talking about abuse, though. No, not abuse. I'm just saying like, I just want to be clear. Like, I don't want to do that right now. We're going to do this. Like, boys got real deep. Yeah.

like because I've seen you know women like who you're talking to you know what it's like oh you wanted to you didn't you didn't want the little the little sheep you wanted to you sound like a symbol when he was by himself you know what I'm saying trying to get the attention of the people that's exactly what you sound like you ain't sound like

moofasa wow now you just sound like a bear with an empty stomach anyway um but do you see what I'm saying though I get it and I think that we have we have to like be consistent i think and what we want from a leader you know i'm saying because i think

that sometimes you know we don't like to feel like we're controlled but we do i think we all sometimes contribute to uh as a society teaching men that you have to be this to be a leader and then sometimes it's possible for that leadership to get it can look muddy like A man doesn't know how to delegate that. How have you encouraged men? Because I can imagine that a man who is a bit more gentle, that he would think that his leadership is not sufficient, right? Because of his personality type.

Because, you know, the hyper-masculine culture, the leaders are these domineering aggressive assertive figures. But not everybody is like that, but it doesn't make you less of a leader just because you don't lead in that way. Yeah. And so how do you encourage those men to actually feel secure in the way that God has made them and what he's called them to? I think it's about balance.

I really think it's about letting the Lord, like seeking the Lord for balance. Because when we look at Jesus, we see that he was such a balanced leader, right? He was gentle, but he was assertive when he needed to be. he asked questions but he also gave commands like he was just he balanced like leaderships so well

and I think and I guess this question this answer is to answer for the man who finds himself being passive and the man who finds himself being more you know dominant in this way if that's even if I can even use

that word because I think for me I can only speak for myself when I first marry you I was just too intense extremely. I was just too intense but that's just my personality and we was just bumping heads

and I'm like but that's like this is who I am and like and you just had to like you and leader Brian and my pastor had to like show me like Preston like God is calling you to be a lamb

too like he's just calling you to be this aggressive and it's not going to work because it was like you were kind of trying to bully me into submission oh man come on man it's like it's like It's like a person trying to hold your head down.

Yeah. And trying to force me to be submissive is literally the worst way. I know. I get that now. No, I'm just saying. Don't make me feel bad. Don't feel bad. I'm just saying, though, because there's no condemnation for those who are Christ.

Come on, preach to me. Yeah. Preach to me. Your sins are in a see of forgiveness. But see what I, what I'm swimming them sometimes. But see, that was my natural personality. And I fall in my mind, what I'm doing is loving us. I'm trying to help us.

Right. And so I wasn't, you know what I mean? But then when I began to learn, like, that's when Brian, like, some months later, had to correct me. Okay, Preston, you was a little too tense, but now you kind of fall back too much. And so it's like, okay. I got to. Yeah. And so like it was. It's like basketball. No, it's like boxing. Yeah. It's like you got to make the right adjustments or whatever. And so like, then it was kind of like, okay, I'm not called to rule over this woman in the way that God has called humanity. to rule over creation. But I'm also called to be a leader. And my voice is valuable in my home. And God, you look at me as the priest of this home and the leader of this home. And it's like, man, like, how do I seek the Lord in a certain way for him to reveal to me? What are the particular strengths of my wife? What can I entrust my wife with? And not try to like muzzle her voice in our home, you know, and what can I do, right? And so, like, I think that for me, I had to find like this, because I think every marriage is different. I think I had to find this, this balance of being, I guess what I'm trying to say, a wise leader. Because I think, I think that's,

it really boils down to leadership. It's not always about, man, we should automatically do this. It's what a rulebook should look like because leadership looks like you being wise and leading your particular home and your particular wife. Right. And so like the way I lead you, it's not going to be the way my friend leads his wife. It's just not because we're different. And so I think that if we try to like come to our marriage with this particular like order, we're going to like. So you brought up trust. Trust.

And how trust is a valuable piece of your ability to. lead. Yeah. But what does a man do when he doesn't trust his wife? And if it's legitimate, like she legitimately may be unwise. She legitimately may make certain decisions that are not helpful for the home. Yeah. How does he... Yeah. What is he supposed to do? Yeah. Your trust for your wife should always start for your trust for the Lord, with your trust for the Lord. Because if it doesn't start there, you never going to trust your wife. Interesting. Right? because it's like like because for me I haven't like every idea that you came up with

I do have a lot of you have a lot of ideas you know what I'm saying but like one I think that tell me what's one idea oh we don't have to go there no tell me we don't have to go there I want to know no I don't look oh it's gonna make me mad you walk up with attitude why would I you right you know what I that's called that's wisdom that's wisdom and that's leadership it's like you know what I'm saying you said I just model that this podcast will completely change you know what I'm saying

you know what I said the whole time you like so why you didn't tell me that you know what I'm saying no I probably just be quiet I just we just ended at 22 minutes 20 minutes with yeah it's probably well all right y'all that's what it would be all right go ahead but no like I forgot what I was saying yeah uh trusting the Lord helps you trust your spouse yeah I feel like trusting the Lord will help you trust your spouse. Now, is there, there are going to be times where even, you know, you're seeking the Lord about your spouse and you still don't have a lot of confidence in your spouse decision-making ability?

Yeah, but I think that's when you're going to have to have some real honest conversation. That's what leadership is. It's saying, you know, it's not boo-boing on her and saying, like, like, I don't trust you, just step to the side yada yada it's like as a leader how can I help you make better decisions how can we talk about decisions together and how can you know and then

even when you talk about it's like man how am I making you feel like after we talk we're always choosing my ideas and not yours if we're always choosing my ideas and not yours instead of you being mad in me can we talk about why I feel like as a leader I want to go in this direction

yada yada yada yada it's it's it's you know like bearing and like being loving and I think that that's I really think it's all about wisdom and love like if we are truly loving our spouse and that's something that I had to learn because I like when we first got married and I felt like we should talk at the moment I was very upset when you said when you say I don't want to talk but in my mind we got an issue we should talk right now that's what I thought like why don't why do we have to wait to Wednesday when it's Monday and it's like No, like what God had to show me was you're a person.

You're a whole like, like I'm, you're not my puppy. You're a person. You know what I'm saying? And so if you're not ready to talk right now, how can I be humble enough to meet you where you're at? You know what I'm saying? And so I think it's about wisdom and love, compromise, you know, and even when I lead you, like, am I leading you in the most healthy way?

That makes sense. You're really wise. you're a wise man oh thank you no this isn't this is encouraging like if I was a man we wouldn't even be together you probably wouldn't have

a wisdom if I was a man but if I was a man listening to this I would be encouraged maybe it depends on what kind of man you are that's true because there's some man right now

I'm like he don't know what you're talking about I'm talking about I imagine I don't want to assert as if I know but I think I'm right so I imagine

that men who dominate their wives that one of the motives at play is not only control because control is like a symptom underneath the control is insecurity and fear so if a man is trying to control his wife and I'm and I'm leaving men with mental disorders and demons out okay because that's the thing like it's some of them that's just demonically possessed or some of them need like intense forms of therapy. I'm just talking about just the normal man who just can't let up

because there's a fear there or insecurity. How do we deal with that? How do we just let go and like lead in love instead of leading by like trying to huff and puff and puff and blow everything down? That all, I think, man, to be honest, I think that all starts.

Let me back up. Let me say this. One time you told me, you said that dominating a woman is easy. It is. Leading a woman with love is scary, therefore harder. It is. Like, that's what I'm trying to get at. Because I think what I think what people have to understand is that true Christ-like

headship is just as scary as submission. Explain. Because I think when you think... I know the answer, but you know. I think when you think about submission, I think, oh, I have to, like, surrender my will to my husband. That's what sounds like. You know, and I think what Ephesians 5 does, it talks about equal submission because Christ-like sacrificial love is a form of submission.

It is surrendering a lot of my will to love you, right? And so it isn't necessarily making all the decisions all the time or being the one who calls all the shots. It is like it literally says husbands, love your wives like Christ, love the church and gave himself up for. How did Christ do that? He loved the church before the church left him back. And he loves the church even when the church fails him. And so what God is calling the husband to do is to literally do that. It's saying, no, even when your wife is mean to you, I'm still calling you to love her even when she doesn't submit.

I'm literally calling you to be like the more vulnerable person in the situation, which was Jesus. It's like, how was it not vulnerable? Yeah. And so if we look at the way Jesus led, he did not come. is saying everybody submit to me he didn't he didn't say that he literally came it was like gentle with his people yeah you know what I'm saying any and he died and he died yeah that's a thing and so like and so like if you're truly walking in Christ like headship you are consistently being in the place of vulnerability and your vulnerability I will argue that your

vulnerability should be on the table before hers because the church vulnerability It was an example of that. The church vulnerability, like before the church even responded to Jesus, Jesus made himself vulnerable for us on the cross. Before the church can even respond. And so I think that if a husband doesn't consistently feel vulnerable in his marriage, he's probably not leading well. That's what I'm trying to say.

If you feel like the one that's always in control, you're probably leading more like a Pharisee than Jesus. because that's what God had to show me. God literally had to show me. Preston, you've become more like a Pharisee to Jackie than Jesus. And it was hard for me to swallow that pill. But it was true. Okay.

You're looking at me like I said something wrong. No, you're just going off. You're doing good. Can you talk about that time, though? Like, because I do think that it's important for people to hear how you felt. Oh, yeah, me. Yeah, like in that season while I just, I had the, you do matter. Thank you.

All women matter. What'd you say? Yeah, like in that season where I feel like our marriage was just difficult and I was trying to learn how to lead, you were trying to learn how to submit. Yeah. It just was really stressful because it just, even before we got married, I worked at a nonprofit and you volunteered there. And so we would hang out like the only.

Monday nights. Yeah. And I did not like taking you home because I knew that taking you home meant there was going to be some kind of conversation about my sin in some way that I could do better. And it was just like, oh man, like I just rather him take the train or the bus. Because it's exhausting to always have our sins put before us, you know, and be trying to like being bullied towards. And I don't mean bully like you were mean.

I just mean you were very critical. And so that was just like a lot. I think the shift happened when you just relaxed. I can't, it wasn't even spiritual. You just relaxed. And we could have a conversation and it not be about sin and about what I did wrong. Or I could make a mistake without being reminded of it immediately. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think when you, when you started to do that, what happened was you, you became a safer place. And because you became a safer place, then that meant that I was more willing to trust you. And if I'm more willing to trust you, then I'm actually beginning to change and respond to you in the way that you would have had earlier if you would have come. That's so good. That's so good. And that's the reason why I wanted to, I wanted you to touch on that because, and I know I, I know I, I'm maybe seem like I just, you know, came down on me really hard.

No, it was very gentle. Yeah. well everybody might not feel that way but like yeah i want people to understand that i'm speaking out of a place of experience out of place of just like oh i'm the the best husband because i had to have a lot of trial and error and i still suck as a husband in a lot of ways you know i'm saying that i'm i'm learning how to become better you don't suck anywhere oh thank you baby that's you need improvement yes but suck no i feel like yes relative you know suck okay well you see see she's like well

not that I think about it if you suck on something it's like minor stuff like you know picking your draws up or you know stop farting like President is the most farting this man I've never met like he just he just farts all the time and it's just like wow

you literally need a like colonoscopy every day or something you got a fart to live but listen they can't stay in you I'm flageolence I'm a walking flagellants What?

Flatchelance What? Flatulins That's what I said You put a D It's okay Go ahead Go ahead

But anyways Like I was said I'm here to help What Flagellens What word is that Wait This is another part

Our marriage Preston says Wrong stuff All the time And we actually Had a discussion This morning where he corrected me because I be correct to him out loud and he wants me to like stop.

Yeah, like stop doing that. Look, what I'm trying to say is I want to, on the flip side, I want to kind of like maybe inform people about like what I feel the pressure that men go through. To be this leader that I feel like society in such toxic ways is talking they're supposed to be. you know because I think when I first became a husband I so desperately wanted my marriage to be good and I wanted to be a good leader and I didn't want to feel you know my church and you and yada yada yeah I just didn't know how to do it and so what I guess what I'm trying to say is like I think when some women may see like this domineering man I think that not every man because a lot of men out there just you know some of them just you know be bad but i think underneath a lot of men it's just

somebody who just wants to lead well you know and and probably uh just hasn't been given like the right tools to to to to lead in the way that god and christ has called them to lead you know i'm saying and underneath there might be a man who really just wants to love you well and he's trying to and loki is discouraged by the lack of submission. And so like even his behavior, he doesn't understand that his behavior is, it's actually stifling you to submit to him in the way that, that,

that, you know, that he wants you to. And he's literally discouraged by it, you know. And that was me. I was discouraged. by the way that you was not submitting to me. And I was like, man, I suck. And I was personalizing.

And I was like, man, she's not submitting to me. And what I realize is I allow culture to, like, dictate, like, what I thought about headship that if a woman doesn't submit to me, it's something, it's my leadership. But I also think we have to flesh out is the thing you want her to submit to, what God wants her to submit to because there is a difference, right? And so if you are calling me to simply, I don't know, use butter instead of olive oil, I'm using something petty, but there were some things you wanted to submit to that were really out of your own selfish motives because you wanted me to become a person that would be

easier for you to lead when it really wasn't even necessarily something that the Holy Spirit was probably calling you to lead me in. Does that make sense? That's real. So there has to be a distinction there. That's real. But see, underneath that, this is a therapy session for me, but underneath that, it's fear because it's like, I don't want to control you merely because I'm egotistical in this way. I want to control this narrative because I'm afraid that if I don't, my marriage is going to get out of control. I'm afraid that you're going to run all over me, or I'm afraid. Like, I didn't really feel like,

I didn't really, I wasn't afraid that I feel like, I didn't really, I wasn't afraid that I feel like you don't run up with me. But that might be a fear for, for some men. Right. And so the fear is like what, what will happen if I don't have control.

Right. And I also think that, I would, I would like for you to touch on women who feel the need to control the marriage. Because, oh, man. What does that stem from? Yeah, that's going to be a part two.

Okay. Part two is going to be. Next. We can record it now. Okay. All right. That'd be great. See y'all next week.

All right. 30 Minutes with the Perry's is a production of Ivy Media podcast. Edited by Angie Elkins. Video recording and audio production by Kim Powell. Artwork by Hop and Music by Swoop. Join us on Patreon for early access to With the Perry's episodes and other exclusives. You got two options. You can go to www.

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