With The Perrys - Let's Talk Submission: A Conversation (Part 2)

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

Does running his bath water, baking him cookies, and rubbing his back equate to submission? The short answer? Nah. In this episode, we’re talking about how the purity of submission is displayed during the inconveniences of marriage and how true submission is a test of a wife’s trust—in God and in her husband.  Previous Episode Reference: When Your Man is Intimidated by Your Gifts (Season 2: Episode 1) Book Reference: Holier Than Thou by Jackie Hill Perry To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Last week we talked about headship. Let's talk about this, shouting. And you kind of went in a little bit. Yeah. Like you, you had some, like, lived experience and some wisdom for the men's. That's what's up. And so we ended that podcast. Because we were going over, because it's 30 minutes with the paris.

We was going over time. We were doing 46. And I wanted to, I wanted to go 50. You know what I'm saying? And but she was like, I don't think, you know, we should go 50. And so my leadership said, okay. maybe she's right. Let me submit to what she's saying because it is called 30 minutes with the Perry's.

And so even though I want to do 55 because I want you to go in on women. Oh, okay. Yeah. That's not what this is about. No, no, not going in, but I do want you to explain. Before we start it, let me help you out. I just want to rehash some of the things that were said. Okay, reash.

Okay. So you talked about how leadership is being like Christ. Christ-like and sacrificial and loving. The land. The lion and the land. How being a leader is just as vulnerable as being submissive. And that if a man is not feeling or sensing that vulnerability often, it is most likely because they're just simply trying to control their wives instead of loving their wives.

That's such a good recap. You was listening. Because it is my job at this podcast to listen and ask questions, that is my strength. And so I have to be attentive as if I'm a host. And that's not my strength because I'm at all. You are a mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Yeah. Kind of person. So you just said. But I'll be listening. No, you do listen. But you're processing. I'm processing. And so you don't have time for a quick response or questions.

Sometimes, yeah. Unless it like, trigger something in my spirit. Do that again. Ooh. Trigger something in my spirit. Do it again. Trigger something in my spirit. So what was the last thing?

last question we left off of. I asked you, what is what is the thing that makes some women? Because I've known in the past some women who were like, move over husband, I'm running this ship. You know, like what does that come from? The control.

Yeah, like women who have a desire to control their marriage or, you know, in a lot of ways, dominate their husbands. It could be a few things. I think some people would argue theologically that Genesis 3 that the curse given to Eve, is a part of that when it says that your desire will be for your husband. They have taken from

the passage when God is speaking to Cain and says that your desire or sins desire is for you, but you should rule over it. So they've taken that to mean, you know, that her desire is a controlling kind of desire. I don't know if I land on that interpretation or not. I haven't done due diligence with it. So I think that maybe it's the biblical thing. Maybe it's part of the curse that women want to control men. I think one part of the curse that we can absolutely say is a part of the curse is a lack of humility. Yeah. Like we know that for a fact that like because we are sinners, we don't respond well to pushback. We don't respond well to submission. We don't respond well to being in a position that feels or seems weak or vulnerable. Yeah. I think.

some of it is also ego. If I'm trying to control the situation, it's just simply because I really do think that my way is right. Like, I just, I'm convinced that this would be a good way for us to do it. So why not do it? I think it becomes

even more problematic when that element of ego is mixed with manipulation where you feel so convinced of your position and so unwilling to work towards it in a healthy and humble way that you try to manipulate your husband towards your own ends. And I think at that point it's like, okay, we need some fear of God here.

Because you're doing something he can't see, but God does. And so I think God has to anchor that propensity to try to use your husband like a chestpiece instead of a person. So that's probably, but also just fear. It's all fear. We try to control stuff that we're afraid of. And I'm not saying I'm afraid of you. I'm afraid of the outcome of you not doing what I want. Yeah, yeah.

And so basically what you're trying to say is like the same fears and the same issues that would cause a man to be domineering in this marriage is essentially the same thing. Because it's human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's deep. That's deep.

Do you think that there, do you think that there's any fear? Do you think that there's any temptation for a woman to want to dominate their marriage because they don't want, they're trying to prevent being dominated? Oh yeah. It's kind of the whole thing. Yeah, nobody wants to be, to be controlled. And so much of this is, I'm going to connect this to my book holier than now, because so much of it out at play is, is logical and rational. Because it's like, like I said in the last episode, men are human beings.

and men are sinful. And so the fear is if I give you room and I give you privilege to lead me or to be an authority figure over me, I don't know what you're going to lead me to. I don't know what you're going to force me to do because I don't trust you. I don't trust your motives. I don't trust your love and your heart for me. And the way we see this play out even in our relationship with the Lord is that some people are so unwilling to submit themselves to the Lord because they feel as if or they have presumed

that somehow God has bad motives, that somehow the places that God will lead them to is not good for them. That's good. But the thing with God is, God is holy. He is without sin, without blemish, without anything. And so the way he leads us and the way he guides us is always good and always wise. That becomes difficult now when I try to take that same trust and apply it to you as a sinful human being. and that's why I have to trust your heart for me. Yeah.

But you actually have to show me that you're trustworthy. Yeah. So I have to see evidence of love. I have to see evidence of compassion. I have to see evidence of humility. I have to see evidence of wisdom. I remember one time we had a conversation about one couple we know and how the wife is really resistant to the husband's leadership.

And you were talking about the husband and how, not in a judgmental way. We were just making observations. And you were like, he isn't a self-controlled man because he, His flesh is just kind of, he just does kind of what he wants to do. And we weren't even speaking sexually. It's just, you know, he wants to indulge in this or open himself up to this. And how that is probably influencing his wife's lack of trust because she doesn't see a man of character. Yeah.

And so even you having a good character makes me more willing to trust your leadership with me. I just said a whole lot. Yeah, yeah. But it came out. It was good. It was really good. Yeah. Because one of the things that I talked about, and I'm going to pick your brain.

about one of the things I talked about in the last podcast was what biblical headship looks like and I think it's oh you're about to ask me about submission yeah like what does what does biblical submission look like I hate this question and I get it all the time because I don't know I really don't know like and I feel like I'm supposed to because I'm a Bible teacher but I don't study Ephesians 5. I'll be reading about holiness and like Jude and stuff. But like it says husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church and gave himself up for her. And then it says wives submit to your own husbands as the church submits to Christ. Right. Yeah. Ephesians 524 is is the text that we usually reference when we talk about submission. And Paul references submission of women or

wives before he talks about headship. I really like, though, that, like, he spends, like, five verses talking to men and, like, one verse talking to women, but that's neither here nor there. So I just wanted to see the Greek for myself. Okay, it says to be in submission

is to be subject, to place or rank under, to subject to obey. That's where it gets weird for me, because the word obey doesn't feel right about. spirit um i guess the way i'll say the way i have treated the subject of submission in our marriage

is that i live with a sense of deep honor and reverence for you oh i'm saying that that's the way i see submission in our marriage is that i am honoring you yeah and so if i am doing the bills i am thinking about what would honor you if I am shopping. I don't do this well sometimes, but I'm thinking about what would honor you, like not spending too much, not, you know, considering you when I buy stuff. Even asking me, like, husband, can I? Like, is this cool for me to buy this? Or when I'm talking to my daughter, so even last week, Eden, she wanted to read some kind

of book and she said that you told her that you want to read the book with her. And she was like, Mommy, can't we just read the book together? And I'm like, well, if your father said that he wants to read the book with you, then that means that he needs to read the book with you. So that's a way of me submitting, I think, myself under your leadership is by honoring you and everything that I do. And so it's less about obeying you. It's just about like, no, like I don't make decisions and go through life without considering

Preston. Yeah, yeah. I hope this makes sense. But I think that anytime, because I think some people might hear. hear you having some tension with this word obey and me like, oh, she's not a submissive wife, right? Because I think I'm a human. You're a human, right?

And so like, let's just be honest. I have, I have, you know, tension with the word obey with my leadership, church leadership, job leadership. I feel like that's just a human thing. But I do think that when we look, when we try to see if a wife is submissive, to only look at a wife only and not to look at a husband's leadership won't I feel like a husband's leadership and a wife submit like a wife and a husband will always inform you about each other right and how they function with one another right and so I'll say that but then I'll say this I'll say like like

even with your attention like I think that you are a very submissive wife right even when you look What's crazy is I think that you're more submissive than you think that you are. Probably. Which I think it's good because if you was walking around here pride for you I'm killing this submissive stuff. Look at me. You know what I'm saying?

Scrubbing his toes. Yeah, but it doesn't look like that. I think that for me, I had to know which I talked about in the last podcast that God had to show me that my leadership gives you room to love me in a way that honors me and vice

And that's what marriage is. And so, like, even when you felt in your heart that we should move to Atlanta, this is just a perfect example. Like, I did. Did we talk about this on the podcast before? I don't know. I don't know either. Go ahead. But I respected you so much.

And I also grew a trust from you in that process. I guess I feel like we got to tell the story now. Yeah, because basically what happened was you felt like the Lord was calling us to move to Atlanta. I'm Chicago through and through. And so, like, I did not want to move to Chicago. You didn't pressure me. You didn't be like, God is calling us to move. And God is showing, I'm a woman of God.

Let's go. We are Georgia Peaches now. You didn't do that. What you did was, you was, you was like, let me pray. And let me, let me, like, ask the Lord if it's, if it's, if it's will, like, I forget what you said. Say what you said. I asked you about moving to Atlanta and you were resistant to the idea. Oh, yeah.

I was so resistant. just let it go. And so I prayed and it was kind of like, you know, Lord, if this is your will, then lead Preston towards that decision. But also it was also me, I'm still up in the air on if the Lord is saying this or not. And so it felt like if the Lord is moving us to Atlanta, he's moving us to Atlanta. So in the same way that I think that the Lord is speaking to me, if he's not speaking to Preston in that way, then that's going to have to color the way I'm discerning how the Lord is like moving our family see but listen I think I hope this makes sense in such a beautiful way that is both leadership and submission explain because in the same way

I would do the same for you if I feel like God like I wouldn't just say all we're about to a moot to Atlanta because the Lord is showing me that right without considering your heart and what you want and which we feel like God is showing you because you have your whole relationship with the Lord yourself, you know what I'm saying? And so, like, for me, like, that, like, for you to, like, to not just try to run what you, what you felt like the Lord was showing you and then care what the Lord was showing me, but you submitted, like, to, yeah, for me. Your process. Yeah, to my process. And, like, if he's the leader of our home and if he's my husband,

I want the Lord to speak to him, and I'm going to give him the freedom to seek the Lord about move it to Georgia, you know, himself. And so for me, when I, when the Lord began to show me that, you know, he wants us to move to Georgia, I don't know why it did, but my trust for you just grew. Interesting. For not pressuring me, for not trying to like, you know, you know, bully me into like doing what you feel like the Lord is showing you. But it also showed me that like, no, this girl hears from the Lord.

Because that's that submit as untrue. the Lord part. Yeah. Because I am, he is my Lord first and foremost. Like he is the one that I am ultimately submitted to. So even in my dealings with you, I am looking to the Lord. And even in me being able to kind of submit to and be patient with your process, it's me trusting your Lord to be Lord over you. And so it's like, I'm like, I'm waiting on God to do. do whatever God has to do with you in his relationship. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Because that's a part of me and God's relationship. I don't think that makes sense. Yeah, but it's just like if I didn't have a frame of reference for you having the Holy Spirit and you being sensitive to God's spirit and God being sovereign over all things, like if none of that was a factor, then the peace that comes with that level of submission wouldn't even been a thing. Yeah.

You know, like I don't know. Yeah, that's good. I think what that says is that we have to first have a relationship with the Lord. And then we have to, like, trust in what God is leading our spouses and how he's leading our spouses. And so for me, it was a confidence not just merely in you, but how the Lord talks to you and how the Lord leads you. And so, like, it was kind of like, wow. And so I felt like that was one of the first times. I felt like, man, like God kind of like led us together.

up there like we didn't we wasn't seeing the same thing but then we kind of like started to see the same thing and it was like man like this woman like she could have just been like yo but pressuring me but she didn't and she prayed and she's like i remember you saying like i'm just going to pray about it and got yada you didn't even do it to be manipulating like yeah yeah i'm gonna pray about it and i was like oh yeah and so then my heart's got to change and i was like yeah so that's dope but you just said something that i think i want to highlight which is sometimes we can spend a lot of time and energy on discussing the gender roles in marriage and not discussing the overall um overall is dramatic not discussing discussing what marriage is supposed to be which is

one person plus one person becoming one flesh and so even though we have these distinct roles if they are not working towards unity yeah and oneness then something is off it needs to be recalibrated. Yeah. And so like even you, you know, leading me is you, like your whole aim is, is oneness. Yeah. And even me submitting to you, it's me trying to work towards that, that oneness.

Not, yeah, because not trying to, because I think leadership is not trying to, how do I do my best in the most loving way to get her to go my way? Right. It's like, no, like, how do I try my best for us to try to figure out what the Lord wants us to do together and for us to get on the same wavelength? Because I think that's two different things. And so, like, I think for the leader, I don't want to go back to headship because we're not talking about headship, but I think for the leader, I think that there has to be some honesty and some distinction between do you really want the Lord's will to be done in your marriage or do you want yours? You know?

And I also think equally for the person who's called to be in a more submissive role, it's like, are we, are we submissive? admitting unto the Lord because we want the Lord's will to be done, or we feel like we're submitting to like some egotistical person and, you know, who only his will. Like I think it has to be a balance because the idea is on this. It is for us to be on the same page with the Lord, for the glory of him, you know. I want to bring this up again because we did a podcast about men not being jealous of their wives gifting or something like that. but I think that that's a really fascinating topic to me is that I am a woman with a lot of visible gifts, public gifts, assertive, aggressive gifts. And so that can kind of put you in an awkward position when it comes to leading an individual like me. Help us process through that.

Like what is what was in your mind when the Lord, started to open up all of these doors. How are you as a leader processing, how to lead Jackie as the Lord is doing all these? Does that make sense? Because a man might be married to a woman who is being called to write or being called to sing and lead worship

or being called to be an executive or being called to be a CEO or being called to be a professor. And these visible leadership positions, Like you're leading a wife that's a leader That's basically what I'm going to say Yeah man Yeah

A couple of things I think I've talked about this man A whole lot on this podcast Brian Yeah But I think discipleship is so very important Because I was disciple by a man

For nine years Who really didn't care about those things and who ran one of the biggest conferences Christian conferences in America, whatever, and didn't really seek to get glory or praise and really taught me that really taught me that leadership is not about gifts or importance or value is not about gifts.

And I think being under his leadership for so long, Like, I think that it's just seeing the way he operated in his marriage and where he led his wife was really influential for me. And one, I think for you, I think the only way personally me feeling like I would have had a problem with the way the Lord has used you, if you walked around acting as if your gifts define you or define how you operate a move in our marriage, but you didn't. And so I think that, yeah, like it's a, like, one, I know what I'm called to be. I know what you're called to be. I know, like, gifts doesn't make people more significant than the other. And, like, I think that for men who are intimidated by their wife's gifts, it's like, why, though? Like what, like, what do you believe about yourself and about gifts that makes you feel insignificant about somebody else's?

One, one, why is someone else your standard and not God? Like, you know what I mean? Like, if we all have a standard and God has gifted us for the glorification of him, why is another human being's gift? Give being compared to you. Like, it's like, for me, Brian taught me all of that. Brian was like, I remember one time, it was a legacy conference or whatever, and Brian was like picking people up from the airport. And people didn't know that he was the one who put this whole conference on. And I remember talking to him about humility.

He was driving the bus. He was driving the bus. And people was like, yeah, I forget. I forget some guy was like, man, you're seen in love. You're seen in love, man. God sees and knows you're the one. picking these people up, not knowing this dude is the one who created this conference. And I remember talking to him about it.

And he started talking to me about, like, gifting this and, like, pride and humility. We got on this whole conversation. And he was like, isn't it funny how we act as if we are doing, using our gifts for the glorification of God, but we're low-key jealous of other people's gifts? And he was like, that shows you some hypocrisy there. It shows you that you don't really see people's gifts as serving the Lord. You look at other people's gifts and they're a measure of where you are. You know what I'm saying?

And so like for me, it just put it all in perspective. It's like, no, like, if my wife, if God has gifted my wife to do a particular thing, to God be the glory. Yeah. To God. You know what I'm saying? And so and vice versa, like I think that because I've known some husbands who felt like their wives was just upset that God was using them in a particular way. And it's just like, no, like your husband and your wife isn't your standard.

God is. And they're not, they're not your enemy. Yeah. Because if there is anything, the devil will have you to believe or do. It's to start treating your spouse like they're an enemy of you instead of like one with you. You know? Because that when you start seeing them that way, that's when there's a devoid. divisiveness and a disunity among you two and that's where you know all the weird stuff happens.

Brian told me like I also was disciple by man who told me that that the way we even look at certain gifts and value them is not the way God sees them. Oh for sure yeah like because it's like some people might look at the gift of teaching not as significant as the gift of evangelism but it's like if God is still using both of us because in the Western culture we look at people on the stage who have the teaching gift like they're just we we automatically put them the positions of authority and power but like in other cultures like the evangelist was you know what I'm saying so like culturally we have allowed the culture to shape what we think about people and gifts yeah and God doesn't see gifts that way yeah my pivot is this there was a video a couple weeks ago that we were watching on

what video and the young lady was talking about how submissive she is she is to her guy. Oh my gosh. And how, you know, she rubs his back so that he falls asleep and she knows when he's sleeping because his breath changes, which is everybody alive. But, you know, and how, like, she runs his bathwater and she packs his bags and just all the stuff. And I turned to you and I asked you as a man when you had women that behave that way,

which to the culture looks submissive. but I don't think that's submissive. I think it's servanthood. But even then, it ain't servanthood. But anyway, when women treated you like that, I asked you, what did it do for you? Do you remember your answer? I don't. I don't.

You said when women did that for you, it made you feel secure and nurtured. Yeah. Yeah, it did. My issue is if you do that out of pure love and mode, because some people are built like that. Like I know women that they're just they're just nurturers and hospitable in that way. They love to take care of their people. And I'm all for that. Like, do what you got to do.

My problem is when that's actually a function of control. Because sometimes some women, they do the most to take care of a man and to bake his cookies and to wash his jaws and the iron his shirts and to rub his back and do all of that because you don't want him to have to go anywhere else. So it's a fear of abandonment. So you're trying to do all you can to keep him at home so that he won't leave you because you got daddy hurt. So that's when it becomes an issue where it's not, this isn't submission. This is a really subtle form of manipulation. So some, wow, that's deep. So some women's submission is like low key them trying to like.

You're wounded, sis. Wow. Because my question was I just want to, I feel like real submission. is visible, not in the things that you're good at or the things you know how to do. Like, you can see submission when there's a question is posed or a position is put forward that goes against your nature. Yeah. So if he says, hey, I want us to move to Costa Rica to preach the gospel.

It's like, then let's see how submission you are. Yeah. You know, no, because it's not about cookies. I ain't rubbing your feet. Two weeks if you move to make me move to Costa Rica. It's not about that, the superficial surfacey, easy stuff now. Now it's like it's moving you in a direction that you may not want to go in. Now I want to see how submissive you actually are.

Yeah, because if you like, if we move to Costa Rica, I'm putting a cocoa butter up. Like, how submissive are you? You know what I'm saying? I ain't saying that if a husband is like, hey, we move it to Lagos, Nigeria. You have to. I'm just giving. I'm giving a really vague example of that some of the forms of submission, how it's talked about in the culture is not submission. Like being a housewife doesn't make you a submissive woman.

Being a codiler doesn't make you a submissive woman. You know what I'm saying? Or me being aggressive doesn't make me unsubisive. Yeah, that's really good. So, like, we can keep using these little housewife from the 1950 white lady tropes to describe submission if we want to. But Paul was not white. He was not thinking about cookies when he wrote Ephesians 5. He's writing to a church in Ephesus.

What do you say? I'm getting triggered. What do you think? What do you think, like, do you think that nurturing in any way, shape, or form should play into a white being submissive? And what does that nurture looks like if it doesn't look like rubbing feet or rubbing back? It depends on how we're defining submissive, right? If in the text, the Greek is to place under, then I don't know how me rubbing a back is a form of submission. I just think it's love.

Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So maybe we're conflating two ideas and making them synonymous when it's not. Because in this video, that's what every, I'm glad you said it because that's what everybody was saying. She's just a submissive and it's just like, yeah. Now, if he asked you, like, that's the. difference. If he asked you, can you do this for me? And he asks, he asks her to do that all the time. And she's placing herself under his request. Yeah. Yes. But in the video, she was saying,

I just love to do these things. I just love to do these things. And I just, I love. And we don't know our heart. We don't know if she's trying to manipulate him to love her, even though we, you know, yeah. But what I am saying is that like, it's giving trauma. It's given trauma. But yeah, like, just because she's doing it doesn't necessarily mean it's it's some submissiveness it could just be the way that she's choosing to love to love him and I feel the burden

to have to over clarify because you know how YouTube and social media is I use that as an example because I think we have really disordered understandings of what submission and headship is so in the same way that a man

thinks headship is being this assertive aggressive bully of his wife and that's not headship in the same way a woman being a doormat and doing every single thing for her man that is also not submissive that's what i'm saying is that like like the holy spirit inspired this this word this text and so even the way it's going to look is going to transcend our cultural values yeah and so there there has to be a distinction in the way the submission and headship looks that is actually strange and uncomfortable

That's good All right I think we're out of the time I don't have nothing else to say I love you Appreciate you loving me I'm gonna try to stop correcting Your bad English

Oh man I'm gonna try I know you're from Chicago And that's just you know That's just That's how it is sometimes But you know I'm called to be an Ezer

You know A helper which is the same word used to describe God and the Holy Spirit. And so I am honored to be put in a position where I am supposed to be like God in the way he helps us. I'm just touching my little heart. This is touching my little heart. By buying you at the source. Thank you for being a submissive wife.

We're not an English teacher. I thank you. Yeah, bye y'all. Bye. 30 Minutes with the Perrys is a production of Ivy Media podcast. Edited by Angie Elkins. video recording and audio production by Kim Powell artwork by hop and music by sweep

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