With The Perrys - Loving People When You Don't Want To With Toni Collier

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Each one of us is worthy of deep and intentional relationships. Just look at the life of Jesus and His close circles of community. God’s design is for us to be with people, but relationships are hard.   The Perrys are joined by Toni Collier to talk about her new book, Don’t Try This Alone: How to Build Deep Community When You Want to Hide from Your Pain. Toni and the Perrys talk about how past hurt and betrayal can cause us to avoid community, but God has always used other people to help us heal. We fulfill His law by loving His people, so it’s time we get good at trusting others with our pain and sitting with them in theirs.   Pre-order Toni’s new book, Don’t Try This Alone: tonijcollier.com/notalone Get 15% off Toni’s merch with code WTP shopetch.co/collections/toni-collier   Scripture references: Philippians 1:23-24 Philippians 2:3-4 Galatians 6:2 Job 2:9-13 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey Saints, how are you? What's up with y'all? Hope you're blessed. Hope you're happy. If you're not happy, hope you are strengthened in the Lord. I hope your tongue is clean. I hope you brushed the tongue today. I just think that is one of the most strangest things to say.

Because you know that's what a boo-boos smell collect at. The tongue is what a boobo smell be like gathering. And so people would be like, oh, let me get these teeth white, but you got to get that tongue. You don't agree? I just think there's other things. Because I got a cousin. He don't never get that tongue. He know who he is. I just think there's other things we could open up with. You know what I'm saying? That's what I think about. That's what I think about in the morning, Klingberg.

Like, I want to open up with the fact I can, I can admit that this is a parental flaw. You get what I'm saying? Last week I was talking to one of my, I ain't going to say one of my, probably my only mentor at this point because, you know, well, yeah, things be happening. She was like, hey, when do the girl start school? I said, honestly, I've been kind of procrastinate with that

because it gives me anxiety. See, that snuck up on this. Last couple days ago, I said, let me go look at this calendar because I'm thinking maybe, you know, maybe I got a couple of weeks. I said, oh, they start school Thursday. Yeah.

I said, oh, I need to go get cackies. I got to go get their hair done. I got to go find some socks. I got to go see when the parent teacher conferences. I got to go find some book bags. You know, they're going to want some new book bags. I got to go. You know what I'm saying?

I was just like completely and immediately overwhelmed. Yeah, you were. You was on the back deck like. Rocking and shaking. You would have thought. I'm like, girl, this girl. You would have thought that the world was about to return. You got like our kids joined a coat.

I was like, are you too stressed? It immediately meant that there's 30 things I have to do immediately. I get it. And it meant, oh, you need to readjust your body because now 6 a.8, 6 a.m. week times, 6 a.m. Yeah. So now y'all need to start going to bed early. And they got to start. Yeah, adjust their body. They be staying up late all every night. They're going to be rocked with a reality.

So to all the parents who are gearing up for back to school, I empathize with you. I understand there's a part of it that I'm looking forward to because bye. They better be glad they got you as a mama because they would not get new book bags every year. Like, you'd be, like... That's a part of the excitement. No, like, I had the same backpack for five years straight. Well, you also lived under certain economic conditions. Hey, man, look.

Your mom did the best she could do, okay? Hey, look, bro. Sometimes I was just want to take my kids at the hood. Can you imagine eating in the hood? Dad, why are they all outside like that? Oh, you want to know a story? You want to know a story? You want to know a story?

No, no, no. Can you imagine? Real quick story, real quick story, real quick story, real quick story, real quick story. Because I realized I've been Christian, I've been Christian a little too long. Okay. A little too long. Okay. I'm going to say the Lord put it on my heart because it ain't me.

I think this is the goodness of God. So you know how we be driving past homespeople all the time. And I, you know, was told by a friend who serves those without homes. You don't want to get them cash like that because you just don't know where they're going to put that money. That blue-ish sugar. Like you want to feed them, okay? So I was like, all right, let me like. I want to have a, and I don't never have cash.

Like, I just always have cars. And so I was like, let me put like a stack of Chick-fil-A gift cards in my car so I can always just hand out, like, gift cards or whatever. So we driving, and I see three people on the side of the road. And I'm like, oh, let me get them like some gift cards or whatever. And the girls are in the back seat. So the one come up to me, and I'm like, I was like, oh, here are three gift cards. Because in my mind is three of y'all.

I give her the three gift cards she put them in her back pocket and she was like oh I love Chick-fil-A and in my mind I'm like you're supposed to share that wasn't just for you but in my mind I've been Christian so long I'm thinking she's supposed to have the principle

of egalitarianism like you're just supposed to share that and then I thought like of course in her mind she's like no you just gave me $50 yeah she got to get how she lives she ain't for the share she homeless babe I know. I forgot. I forgot that, like, she got to get that how she lived it. She was like, got mine. Yeah.

The way she put it in her pocket, like, thank you. Like, I'm going to get that number one, three times. What did you say? So anyway, we got Tony call you. Hey, Tony. How you doing? Not well. I almost bust a brain vessel trying to silently laugh at y'all. So I wouldn't be heard. But hey, how you doing, girl? Great. I'm prepared. I got my Bible and my tissue. I've been crying the whole time already. You look like you've been to preach the end.

Look at me. You're ready to receive saints. She's sitting like a schoolgirl on the couch. She looked like, I am the couch. No, you're mixed between the student and the pastor. Thank you. Hey, but honestly, isn't that what we're supposed to be? Oh, you're breaching already.

Boo. Thread me. Is that what we call it? Thread me. Thread me. The first time I met Tony. Oh, no. Was that if gathering.

Okay. You were hosting with Jamie. you were pregnant. I was. And you were loud. Uh-uh. I don't believe it to be true. You were just so loud.

I did. And we sat next to each other at dinner. No, no, no, no, no. We didn't? No, you, across the way. I'm talking about just the loudness. Oh, I'm sorry. There it is.

This is almost a bruster brain vessel all y'all was like, please. All sound guy was like. I'm so sorry. And you just start, you start asking me questions about, what did I say? About traveling in light of having children and stuff like that. How you got nine kids?

How are you doing this? Yes. Your memory is pristine. That's all right. I don't have that. Yeah, she don't forget nothing. I don't. But yeah, here you are on my couch, talking about your book.

And Tony is very funny. I'm about to get up and get my coffee, though, so that I can function accordingly. Y'all have it. They didn't have the coffee. Oh. It fell. Oh, it's all right, Brianna. Your feelings hurt.

Mine's fail, too. You want to taste this? That's okay. I get opening. I'm all right. It's hot. I love community, but I don't love it that much. And it's half full and it's hot.

You've been hanging with a certain group of people too long. Are you saying my saliva is tainted? It just is yours. Okay. Oh, I just got it. You've been hanging with a certain group of folks. This is going to be, yeah, because we share. Yeah.

Oh, right. Yeah, no, yeah, you've been, we black, Tony. Okay. Anywho hilarious Tony wrote this book called Don't Don't try this

alone about community And I know y'all hear the word community And some of y'all You all You do like this And I know you can't hear me So you just

You stop your ears So let me Let me like Not even use the word community Let's talk about people There we go Right

Humans Friends Friends Neighbor pastors, your husband, your wife, your cousin. And them.

But people feel with Spirit of God, you know, people not feel, but we need people to be good people in Christ. That's good. That's it.

You need people. And I just want to say, before you even get to your first question, I don't have a question, I just want to say, that's a great title. I always comment on people when they have trash book titles.

I'm like, man, I read a lot of good books, but not good titles. A title is, a title is so important. It's a good title. Oh, it's been, it's profoundly important. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel great.

I'm done. Thanks, bye. I feel great about myself. What, what, I guess for you, yeah, growing up, how did, like, how, I don't know how to say this. Yep. What was your relationship with people? Man, this sucks.

Why are you all in my business like this? I'm in counseling on the yellow couch. I detached very easily from people. My mom was really sick growing up. My dad was an alcoholic. I raised myself in so many ways. And so people just couldn't be trusted like that, not long term, not with deep attachment.

So very surface level, but I'm a telitubby. So I'm friends with everybody. Yes, you are. But it's all surface level. And in my mind, anyone can be replaced because I can just find a new fun friend. And so that's my relationship. Surface level, you don't know me, you know my gifts and talents, but you don't know my pain.

And if we have a little bit of conflict, bye. You got to go. It's okay, I have like five other ones, but you got to go because I'm not doing that. So, yeah. So when you became a Christian, I guess what then shifted your understanding of people? You know, I actually think what shifted that helped me understand. understand people and perceive people well was first shifting how I viewed myself. So I don't think I felt like I was worthy of deep and intentional relationship. I don't think I was worthy of people really

seeing my pain. Oh, go there. I will go deep. I will go deeper, go home. Okay. Boys and girls. Go there. And so if I exposed my pain, they'd leave or they'd exploit it. So I had to to be surface level. But why you say worthy? Why is that the language? I think it's worthiness because I'm a recovering people pleaser, first of all. I have very deep insecurities around talent and perfection. And what's tethered to that, I think the unhealth is a lack of actually believing that I'm worthy of it, which goes rooted down to my identity in Christ. I didn't have that. I didn't get saved until I was 21. So all my whole life, there was nothing to ground me in the truth. And so when that happens, you're just flapping around, like one of those little, like, flappy balloons on the side of the street.

You know what I'm talking about? Okay, great. You just, you're flapping around. There's no foundation. There's no real substance or sustenance in you. And so for me, I had to realize I'm actually worthy of good people in my life so that I could open myself up to actually find good people, good, godly people that see me for real. Yeah. I got a question.

So, you know, you talked about how, you know, growing up you had very surface level relationships. Yeah, same with friends. You know, I do think that when everybody comes to Christ, Christ kind of pulls us and stretch us and stuff like that. But at the same time, even in Christ, having healthy boundaries is a thing. And so I guess how has God like grown you in a way

for you not to be so surface level, but at the same time guard yourself from any and all, everybody? I think being able to really, look at Jesus' life and how he literally did community so well is, I think, the starting point for that. So for me, looking at the life of Jesus and how he, I mean, is literally God. You don't need 12 other people to complete what you were put on earth for. Like, you don't need those people. And yet, not only did he bring people in, invite people in, but he brought other people in even closer. So we were talking about this Jackie like Peter, James, and John, how he brought them

into one of his most vulnerable and intimate moments in the Garden of Githemone. Looking at Jesus who literally, again, doesn't need anyone to help him complete his purpose. Tells me something about myself that how much more do I need people to complete the purpose that God has put on the inside of me? Once I started there, then I think the Lord just started exposing me. all my brokenness, all my stuff, all my inadequacies. I literally have a little tattoo on my foot. It's just, it's the word broken. Because it helps me not only remember that I need God, but I also need his people too.

Yeah. Like, for real, for real. Like, I actually can't do this alone. And that pride had to break in me. That, like, I'm the fastest. I'm the best. I got gifts and talents. I'm straight.

I can do battle by myself. Yeah. Jesus had to break that in me so that I could get to a place where I was just honest with myself, like, you're a little ratchet. Yeah. You didn't sleep with one too many people, everybody's sons. You didn't drink yourself. You don't remember half of your college experience because you was drunk the whole time.

Like, let me break you down so that I can not embarrass you, but bring you to a place where you actually utilize my design. And it is with people. That's the design. That's good. That's good. I love what Dr. Sarita Lyons, how she. I love her, gosh. Yeah, she's great.

How she separates community. And I think it's a healthy measure. says, you know, some people are from missions, some people are from meals, and some people are from misery. Ooh, child. You know, the missions is we do ministry together. Wow. We have the same goals or whatever.

Some people we sit down and we have meals with conversations. It's very intimate, but then some people you invite it to your misery, right? Some people you invite into your pain. And so I guess my question is, like, have you, I know you've been through some things last couple years. We're going to talk about the things now. We can talk about the things. I can let Jackie lead that way.

But, you know, I guess, you know, how have you filtered through those things? I have a lot of friends. I'm going to just be 100%. Let me say this. Let me tell you this. Let me say this. Okay. Totally be having like birthday parties.

Right. And like- I love birthdays. You should. You should celebrate that you made it another year. And I ain't never seen nobody whose party guest list is the equivalent. of a wedding. Uh-uh.

Guestless. You understand what I'm saying? You know, when you get the invitation on your phone and you scroll to see, how many people, how many people did you invite? I had 50-z-z-um. No, no, no, no, no, no, 150. 150? I don't know.

Yes. To your birthday party? I'm not saying who showed up. That means you had option. You only supposed to buy it 150 when it's like your 50 your birthday or something like that. That's true. I turned 34. It's not really.

It wasn't a marker, but it's, it's, about it. I'm not even kidding you. Before, I'm not, I didn't tell you this. Before I came to Tony's party, I sat in my car in a parking lot, seven minutes away preparing my brain. Okay, this is good. Because I knew when I showed up, it was going to be an extravaganza, not by balloons and all, I know, you had social anxiety. Just so, so many people. Young, old, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, literally, it was heaven. you should think about Jackie's personality so many people I was scared for her I wouldn't rescue but she'd be rescuing me

I do rescue Jackie I don't know I can see I got the she was she sent somebody off to get some lamb chops just to rescue me my family on my mama's side my family on my dad's side they all like churched my family on my mama's side I got one of the largest families in the city of Chicago I mean they all really I said my wife is gonna have a hard time the first time she came around my family

she was I was like where's my wife at she was in the corner like this Please help me. I don't think people understand the amount of cortisol that Like it's like Ain't no dopamine. It's a dopamine blockage. It's a stress hormone.

I don't even know where we was going with that. I just wanted to establish like if people don't know you. Yes. When they have a lot of friends. You have a lot of relationships. Relationships is actually a better way to put it. Yeah. I don't know if we should talk about the missions, meals, misery.

When we kind of unpacked a lot of the stuff that. Well, she does, she does have designations on how she places. these relationships in her life. In conversations with people about it. Oh, wow. So when I talked a little bit earlier about like Jesus having circles, I just feel like, I mean, God is kind. And so I'm sure in these conversations with the disciples with people that he healed,

like he spoke with them and invited them into a relationship with him in different ways. And I just think that we get to live like Jesus and do the same thing. And so if Jesus had his most intimate circle, which was just him and God, and nobody could get up in there, then we should have our most closest intimate circle should be with God. Outside of that, we saw that he brought Peter James in John Close, not only in the Garden of Gathsemini, but in so many other ways in ministry as well. Like, who are your three? Who are your five? Who are the people that you bring close? That can be in misery with you. That can be in the valleys with you. That can see you sweating

blood because you're in such distress. And then the other disciples, who were equally as close? We had a couple betrayers up in there, which we will, and we can talk about that. later because if Jesus, no, I won't go there. No, you're about to talk about betrayal. I shout out of all these shi. I mean, Jesus was betrayed knowingly. He's all knowing. So he knew that sweet Judas was going to betray him.

And he knew that Peter was going to deny him, which in friendship is a form of betrayal. He knew those things and still let them dwell with him. That's so good. Probably teaching all of us that if Jesus could be betrayed and still loved, maybe we could too. but anyways. So Jesus defined these circles. And I think that we have the opportunity to do that for people,

especially someone like me, who's like, everyone's my friend. I mean, everyone's my friend. Just come. I mean, you were at the birthday party. There were two strangers there that I had met the day before. Yeah. And I invited them to a party. I'm like, come on, children of God.

You're like the, you're the epitomey of an extrovert. Oh, it is. I'm like 99%. Whatever the scale is, I'm all the way over there. And it's so, it's crazy how God be making people be friends because she is the epitome of an introvert. Like, we are on the opposite ends of whatever that spectrum is. Okay. For real.

Okay. And I just feel like the shadow side to the gift of being an extrovert is that people think that they're close with me when they're not. And it's my responsibility to provide clarity. That's good. About around the relationship. Because I have people that's like, I want to call you when I'm going through something hard. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I don't even think we were.

that close. But now I know all your business, not sharing mine with yours, which creates an imbalance of intimacy. Yeah. Yeah. And so I need to tell people, hey, I'm bringing you into this and this is why I have some really hard things that I'm processing through. My story in and of itself is just dark. But the Lord Pierce is through. You know what I'm saying? So I have a, I have a question. I'm sorry, what you're done? I love that. Okay. I feel good about what what happened. I'm sorry. I have ADHD. That's his ADHD. I'm sorry. I don't, Y'all are sharing an ADHD. Because in my mind, I'm like, but she needs to finish.

Not me. I'm like, yes, let's go somewhere else, the fun. Okay, go ahead. Y'all can share in that then. Okay, no, no, okay. Have circles, define circles, be clear with people, be mature. I'm just curious. Yeah.

How a per- because I'm an extrovert with introverted tendencies. A little ambivert. Right people, right places is important to you. A lot of, like, so I'm an extrovert, but I'm not as bubbly or nice as you. So some people are like, yo, is he, is he mad right now? Because your hood extrovert. Yeah. With words.

I was, I visited the hood, but I'm not familiar with it. I just want to say that. Your daddyhood. And so I guess my question is, how about phrases, right? Especially in the Christian community where people feel like people are obligated to be a friend. Where in Christ? I'm in Christ, we should be friends. It's like, actually, no, nobody said that.

Right? Right. And so I guess for a person like you, what would going deep with someone look like? Because somebody can be confused. that I can understand how somebody can be confused that they think that you like them way more because of your personality. And so I guess for a person,

I'm very clear with my intentions. If I want to go deep with you, you're going to absolutely know it. If I don't want to go deep with you, you're going to know it. So like how does one tale with you? What does it look like for a person that you want to go deep with?

Because I think for the people listening that might be helpful. You know what I'm saying? That's good. Well, it's interesting because when people first encounter me, they're like Teladubi all day. And then they're like, oh, dang, she's kind of smart, maybe a little bit. You are smart.

Or she goes deep for real, right? And so I think what happens is people encounter me at a surface level. And then as we get to know each other, I can sense and discern like, oh, you want to become friends. I have a serious conversation. Hey, I take friendship very seriously. I don't, I have done it wrong so many times that in these latter years of my life, like, I want to get it right.

I would love to have a conversation with you about friendship and be honest with you about where I am. I think I was telling you and Meg this, I had someone DM me about not feeling close to me and wanting to come to my party, but not, oh, I talked to Meg about it, wanting to come to my party, not really sure because she doesn't really know me deeply. And I just was honest with her and I was like, hey, I totally get that and respect that you want to go deep in relationship. I don't have the capacity right now because I have other relationships that I'm going deep with. That's good.

So you're honest. I'm just honest. Because why would I lead you to believe that I can be there for you and fall short? It's only going to hurt people. It's good. We become the reason why people do this with community. I don't want to hear it. I've been betrayed.

People aren't good. And it's just because we're afraid of having like hard conversations, direct conversations. I actually respect that a lot. That's helpful too. I want to because this can feel petty. But I think these are the little things that people are wrestling through that people are not addressing. Because I can hear somebody wanting to do that but feeling like that's unkind. Or too much.

like, oh, it's just a friend. Yeah, so what makes you feel confident that you're not being unkind to her to create that kind of boundary? Yeah. Good question. Well, I think kindness is hard. I would love to call myself a kind of person. But the way that I speak to Preston, he may love it.

You may get offended by it. So I think holding very loosely my assumption, because I actually think it's prideful that anything I say is going to be, it's kind. I'm a good person. I love the Lord. So it's going to come off well. And if you're tripping, then that's on you. Well, humility says, I want to be a kind person, but I could say something and you take offense to it and humility says I need to apologize for it. So I think you do your best, but you hold it openly.

That could have been offensive to someone who has had real betrayal and friendship, has felt abandoned. But for the person I was talking to, she totally respected it. Hey, I get that. Thank you so much. Yeah. So I just think we have to be ready to apologize at every corner. And that's okay. Yeah, you ain't overthinking it.

Oh, that's good. Okay, I didn't realize that wasn't my intention. Yeah. But I can fix that. Well, it's a better way to say that to you. Now, you said that Jesus loved Judas, which could tell us that we can love those who betray. Boo, boob, shadoot.

Us. I mean, that is a big reason why we try to do things alone. 100%. And even that's even like playing into your book, Jesus just didn't love him, but Jesus did community with like he was in community with him. No, when he sent that man out. He sent him out. He used him for the gospel, broke bread with him, walked with, I mean, and knew.

This makes me want to cry, which I'm so glad I got my little tissue here. And I think I actually cried when I told you this at my party. I love people. Like for real, for real. We could tell. No, like, yeah, it is. It's just going to get me. I just, when I see a man or a woman, I'm like, what a beautiful mirror of Jesus.

I don't know. I mean, random people on the street. You need to be a missionary. I don't know your name. Am I? Is that my call? I can remember even now, like, in middle school, in high school, in college, even like for people being mean.

And I just loved them anyway, which is like, probably why I get hurt so often by people, because I'm just like, I trust you, you know? And I just, if Jesus knew that someone would betray him and he loved him, isn't that how we're supposed to be? I don't, like, I so deeply want to be like Jesus that I am not afraid to be deeply hurt. by a human and stand up and love them anyway. I'm like, fine. I will recoup that in heaven.

I'll recoup the healing that I have to do from some people, the counseling that I've had to be in, the embarrassment, the pain. I'll recoup it later. I want to be like Jesus. For people that don't know your story, you are twice divorced. You're a single mom.

So betrayal is very close to home for you. Right there, that's probably where I'm crying. How have you practically applied that even today? Well, let me just say this, because I don't want to come off as something that I'm not. It isn't very difficult. And feel free to even walk us through that. Okay, let me start from the beginning.

But I just want to give the disclaimer that, yeah, like, I'm still not perfect. I still wanted to run my ex-husband over with a car. I mean, there's so many thoughts. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just, I don't want it to be like, oh, my gosh, like she loves Jesus so much. as you loves her people know. I've stumbled my way through this, okay?

So when I moved to Georgia initially, I moved with a guy, shacking up, knew him for three months, which was the first mistake, okay, and got married. And it just was a really horrific marriage. It started off with verbal abuse, then physical abuse, doors ripped off the hinges, holes punched in the walls by my ex-husband. I had a daughter, and then just saw fear in her eyes for the first time. And I was like, nope, I'm going to leave now. And so transitioned out, thought that I was going to work for Girl Scouts corporate because I love Girl Scouts. I don't know that whole community.

I don't know. Okay, there you go. I'm not surprised. Okay. And the Lord called me back in the ministry. I was a youth pastor before my first divorce. And the Lord called me back in the ministry and was like, no, I'm going to use your little wretched behind for sure.

And then I got remarried and thought like, I'm Cinderella. Okay? Like, he was a pastor. I was like, I'm God's favorite. I've redeemed. I'm going to write a book about this. Wear your ground, whatever. Like, I just assumed, like, you're a pastor.

This is amazing. The second year of our marriage, I caught him cheating for the first time. And I don't want to go into all the details. It was disgusting. And I wasn't. I didn't believe I was worthy enough to leave. I didn't want to go through another divorce with my daughter. I didn't want to be embarrassed again.

and I really believe that I needed a man. That's why you stay. And so over the years of our marriage, eight years, just so much infidelity again and again, porn addiction, just so many things. And then 2020 hit and everybody was shut down. Pause, quick question. Did your people know this? No. Why?

Then this is what's crazy because I was on a journey of healing, going to counseling every single week. from my first divorce, really like getting serious about the Lord, finding really great friends, but still living in that, well, you can't know, no, like all the things. And so literally, some of my friends are just learning now that I went through like a 16-week betrayal trauma group and year three of my marriage that I was going to counseling for sexual trauma, trying to regain trust. Like a lot of my friends really didn't even know that. 2020 hit.

At 2020, it masked some things. Now, it brought some things to light for some people, but it masked a whole bunch for other people. Were you pregnant then? I wasn't pregnant yet. Okay. But we was in the house together all the time. That's COVID. That's COVID.

Now, with our lifestyle, when we're traveling all the time, that's one set of problems. But now we're together in the same house. And it kind of felt like redemption. Like, okay, you can't go out and cheat because you may die. You can catch COVID. And, you know what I mean? It's not funny. Look at presence base.

Okay. Anyway, so we got closer and then was like, oh man, we should have a baby. Like, God's going to use this part of our marriage. We planted a church with Hill Song. Yeah. That was weird. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. Then the Hill Song stuff happened. Yeah. And then we transitioned the church. And then September 23. That was the first day I met you. Yes. I came and spoke at your church.

under pandemic. You did. Oh, wow. Surprise. Surprise. Surprise. Yeah. Sorry.

Okay. Yeah, it was very brief. He was like, hi, bye. Okay. Okay. And in September 2020, I got a call from my now second ex-husband that he was being extorted.

And he had hired someone. They took a video. And what I thought was redemption was continual infidelity being masked. And I don't know why, but this time it hurt real bad. I mean, betrayal was like a part of our marriage. I think it hurt worse.

Now, this is going to be weird. I think this is the Holy Spirit. I think it hurt worse because I said it out loud to people. Okay. I finally said, I'm not hiding anymore. I'm not hiding all your stuff anymore. Yeah. I'm going to tell.

And not in a gossipy way, my close people that I've been walking with. And when you say the pain out loud, it's like all the band-aids get ripped off because it's time for surgery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you start bleeding. And it's painful. And I'm only saying that because I know so many people are like, well, I don't want to open up. And I don't want to tell my story. And it's too painful.

It's hard. I want to validate it. It is. It is worse when you come out of hiding. and then you start healing and it gets better. That's good. I can't, you just don't get to sugarcoat that. You realize out loud that you've been betrayed and hurt.

And that's someone who is supposed to love and care for you has been the one person that has hurt you the worst. And when you put that out into the atmosphere, the environment, it's almost like your body's like, oh, this is real. This actually happened to me. And then you start healing. Wow. Wow.

I remember. Can I tell my father's, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. I feel messy. Never mind. Okay, this is good. See?

We can move on. Lock it in. I got a question. Okay. It's not messy. Oh, no, this is great. Okay. I guess.

I just be, I was just like, yeah, I know what you're going to say. That is just like, you just be picking up stuff. I was like, something is. No, you did. You were like, I know. Jackie, her spotter since she has always. You discerned a lot of stuff. But I called you.

You did. I said something. Because we, I know, I actually got closer through that. I think because of that. Yeah. But I was like, some is up. And I don't know what, what's up? Like, we don't need to be, I don't talk on the phone with you, none of it.

But like, tell me what's going on. You just, you was like, girl, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I'm sure of a human. I don't know what's going on. Well, here we are. I'm sorry, go ahead. I was just going to ask, like, how did, because I can imagine going through something like that is embarrassing.

Yeah. But at the same time, like you said, actually sharing it with people actually made it better. Yeah. But at the same time, I can imagine that going back into community, it's hard. Yeah. It's in a hill or sing. It's a ring community. with such a public thing.

And I know, like, we all have those personal things that happen in our life, which going back into community and doing life with other people makes it harder. So how did you build up the courage to actually enter into community with people who can hurt you again? Here's what's interesting. I don't think I built up the courage after the trauma. I think I had already been building it. And that's what's beautiful about living on the offense and not the defense.

Because the love. Because the Lord, I can remember the moment where I prayed the most honest, vulnerable baby girl little prayer to the Lord. And I was like, can you please send me good friends? I, I, you know, I love people, Lord, please. I'm on this healing journey. I feel so alone. I'm hiding things about my marriage. I'm pretending on the outside.

Like, I, please. And I got a call for one of my friends. And she was like, hey, I'm starting this group therapy group. It's called a confessional community. I was like, I want to vomit. Okay. Because again, I can do surface level real good. Everybody's my friend.

But you're saying you want to build a very niche, focused community on confession and accountability. All right. Yeah. Cool, cool, cool. So we got into this group at that point, almost three years before everything went downhill with my marriage. And so the courage had been building.

So I wasn't walking into an arena of strangers. I was walking to the sidelines, my team. I was going to the huddle. Like, hey, that's crazy. Help me. Carry me. I need to get out of the game for a little while. Sit me on the sidelines and tend to me.

Give me some war, okay? Like, that's what I need right now. And so I think for people who, you know, their stories don't include a whole bunch of people before trauma, and they do need to build up that courage, the Lord is your strength. Like, oh, Sheila Walsh said this, and I thought it was so powerful she was talking about Judith. She said, you know, the betrayal of the one could not overshadow the beauty of the 11.

And I was like, I'm going to preach that till the day that I die. Goodness gracious. Because, yes, it hurts. As with anything in this fallen, broken world. Anything. Anything, any relationship. your counselor transitions out. You're sad because you ain't got your counselor anymore.

Someone leaves your team. With anything, we experience grief and loss because we are the people of grief. That's good. And still, we chase after glory. What? That was a challenge for you, babe. Sorry. I don't like to do that.

I don't want to do that. I don't like, because my problem is, everybody once I encounter Judas everyone is a potential Judas everybody and so that's the

struggle is always the anticipation of you being a potential it's always me watching for the traits of the Judas and a Peter you know what I'm saying which eliminates

beauty, I think, and intimacy and vulnerability and joy and all the stuff. But we're not here for me. I would like to ask a little question that came up here just right there in my spirit. And I think it's a rhetorical question. I think it came up in your vest. Go ahead and ask you. It's fine. Reverend Tony. And this is not for you, Jackie, but if you'd like to catch it, you can. This is for you. I just wonder if we're so afraid of the pain that betrayal causes that we forget that God is a redeemer and a healer of the betrayal. Like, isn't it worth it to take the risk because you know that even if you get hurt, God will

heal you. Right. You know what I mean? I know that. Not you. This isn't for you. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think they know that.

Well, that's the reason why people don't want to get in friendship. We forget that. God will heal us. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, go ahead. No, you go, right. I think it's, I do think it, I think it's pride. I think we prefer ease. I think we want easy relationships.

I think it's, obviously, fear. I think it's, I think it's unbelief to a certain degree. Yeah. And it's like this like, this sense where it's like you want to look like Christ outside of the mechanisms by which he has prescribed, right? Stop. Like pain is one of the primary mechanisms.

And if betrayal, trial, circumstances, relational, that doesn't mean we run into relational trial. God is not saying be a fool. We have proverbs and ecclesiastes to help give us some type of parameters. But if something happens beyond our control, then that means in the sovereign hands, of God. And I'm saying I've made risks. So I'm not saying I'm not talking at somebody that hasn't taken risk. I'm saying these are the, well, we've seen Megan. I mean, you put yourself out there. These are the things that have anchored me in sending the text and going to the parties.

And you went. I did. And doing all the things is to say, you know, if pain happens, God is doing something in you because of it too. Yeah. That's really. That's the thing. Yeah. And also, too, you can't keep saying God make me like you and then not expect for him to use everything to do it.

That's good. That's good. Yeah. And also, too, like, I think. Well, it's because I'm having these thoughts. And I'm like, yes. No, no. What I was going to say also, too,

like, I think God has always used people to heal you. Always. And like, we have this, the scriptures just feel with broken people. We have his word. And so God has always used his people to help bring about. God is will.

And so I think a lot of our flesh and the enemy just doesn't want us to enter into relationship because the enemy wants us to say, why would I enter back in relationship with people when they have the capacity to do that? Mm-hmm. To hurt me. Yeah. But it's like God is saying, no, I've always used people. Always.

Always. To heal you. Always. And so, like, you know, a lot of times you just don't want to enter into community because you're trying to protect yourself. But it's like, God is like, you need to heal, though. Yeah. Which is the reason why I think that your book is so.

important, you know what I'm saying? And then I said this on a podcast, it's not released yet, but like the enemy also wants us out of community because the enemy doesn't want people to benefit from us. Come on. He wants to stop the blessings. Yes, he wants your discernment out of the church. He wants your spiritual gifts out of the church. He wants you like all the ways in which God will use you to heal others. Because you're so concerned about yourself. And so I think, yeah, like, we just got to be brave. Can I say one more thing? And then I'm going to ask you a question.

Okay, great. And also I'd like to just say this scripture after you're done. Because fear really is a legitimate experience. But I think alongside of that, we have to, sometimes there's some self-centeredness in that. And I think when you read Philippians, I think Paul says something crazy about to live as Christ and to die his game and then my Bible's in my car and then he goes on to say something about

like it would be better for me to go and to leave here and to leave but I'm a stay for you for your sake for your sake so that you may see I actually but think about that kind of mindset that like to be with Christ

is actually like that I want to be with the Lord but I'm a stay put for you and I I think that's the thing that the Lord has to develop. Even the Philippians, too, have this mind that was in Christ Jesus, who did not consider equality with God, the thing to be God, da, da, da, da, da, da. Do nothing from selfish ambition. And so there's like, I think to be community oriented requires selflessness.

Yeah. It's to say, like, no, I exist to serve you. That's good. And so I just, I don't know. And it shows us, too, how being heavily minded is so interconnected with being. community minded. Yeah. They're not kind of separate.

I mean, it's Galatian 6 too. Give us the text. Bear one each other's, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. Come on. Not the law of man. Christ. That's good.

We fulfill his law by loving his people. Who I got a text when we leave? Who I got to say? What's your knee girl? Isn't that awesome? You mean to tell me that one of the ways that I can please God is to serve his people, bet?

I'm about to out-serve all you suckers. It's going to be gifts on freaking, I'm ready. I just felt like when I read that, I felt a charge to love people way better than I ever have. Like, I want to fulfill the law of Christ. I get to do that not by Old Testament, sacrificing animals, but by loving people well. What a gift.

Thank you, Lord, that I get to, because honestly, for me, it's fun, loving people. Yes. Surprising people with things, lavishing them with things coming through for people when they're in like need of something like it's like a little game I'm like

right well we don't want to gamify it because we want it to be pure you know it's from my heart you know you're like Preston in a sense yeah it's Preston let me explain so this book

your temperament your gifting is much like you as an evangelist whereas your temperament temperament is natural to you to move towards people, to love people, and people can look at you and say, that's easy for you, that's natural for you, and try to use that as justification why they shouldn't obey scripture. But it really is the Lord has maybe naturally gifted you in that way to put you up as someone to encourage and disciple and train people and the thing that is still

it's still an obligation for people to do it in the same way that you might be naturally gifted and spiritually gifted to train people in evangelism and apologetics that still does not excuse people from making disciples and evangelizing because that's still something Christians are called to do. It's like y'all are like even if it's easier for y'all, it's like the Lord is just setting y'all up to help train people that aren't naturally gifted in that thing. That's a really good connection. Doesn't make sense what I'm saying? That's actually a very, very good connection. Because the whole time Tony was talking, I was just thinking about people.

And people were like, yo, this is, it sounds good, but this is hard. And now often people say that with me, like, Preston, it sounds good, but talking to a Muslim is not easy. He's lifting y'all up to say, no, I'm using y'all to train. You can do this. You can do it. There we go. We're supposed to do it. Yes.

So whatever. I be telling people all that time. It's like, I'm an evangelist, but you're actually supposed to make disciples, too. So what are you talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, what I thought you were going to say, this is so funny, because Preston, I literally still have this random sweatshirt that you gave me from Urban Outfitters. I went and I got the little sensor taken off because they had left it on, remember?

Right. And I just, I didn't steal it. Those types of things are meaningful to me. That's why I thought you were going to talk about. Like, that's why y'all are like, because you didn't gave all the clothes off your back, literally, okay? But like those little things like that where it just popped into your mind be like, oh, I got this sweatshirt you could have.

Yeah, yeah. People see my demeanor, and then when they get rid around me, like, oh, I get this all the time. You're actually very nice. It was the first time that I was like, oh, my gosh, he's so kind. Yeah. That sweatshirt, I'll never forget it. Isn't that funny?

Share your text. Okay, okay. I recognize this on Monday. Okay. So I didn't read the book of Job. It's like, okay, great. He had all this stuff. And I mean, literally it says.

Because Tony got degrees, y'all. Oh, stop, no. Chapter 1. You got MD? No, my God. gosh, please don't even speak that to atmosphere. As a matter of fact, just to humble me right quick, I actually started off as an M-Div,

tried to hop in that Hebrew class and husha-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h my way right on out. I said, there's no way that I can al-Fet. Wait, wait. I hash to-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-mdiv program. I said, this is the, I'll never forget. I was in my bathroom because we had this little tiny apartment, and I was in seminary, and I had my laptop on top of the toilet, so they can only see the back,

so they couldn't see that I was in, you know what I'm saying, in the bathroom? And she was like, Tony, my professor was like, Tony, we want you to like read the whatever. And I was like, read it. What do you mean? Professor, like, read the Hebrew. I said, I don't know what that means. And she called me out in that class and I said, I'm out. Because what I'm not about to do is be embarrassed at 28.

What is it? That's not what I'm going to do. What is it? I say, I'm not kidding you. I'm literally, I got my textbook here. I've got the laptop here. And I'm like, I say A.

And you're a perfectist. I'm so embarrassed in front of all these people that I don't even know on the Zoom call from all over the world. I'm like, hush it on. Literally. She is like, you can stop. I mean, and I dropped out of that class on that night and dropped out of the MDiv program because then I found out that you can't actually. Y'all ain't never going to embarrass me ever yet. 28, not to be good at something, please take it away.

I'm not learning pickleball. I don't want to do nothing that I'm not already good at. Anyways. So you got the master's in biblical and theological studies. Okay. Which is still good, I guess, you know? Hilarious. Anywho, we've read Job.

A lot of us know the story that he was the greatest man among all the people of the East. This is what they're saying. He's got stature. He's got all these things, land, cows, and stuff, all the things. Okay. The enemy, we know this, is challenging his loyalty to God. That's essentially what is happening in this. He starts losing everything.

All of his business, all the different things. Then he gets attacked in his body, which, sweet Jesus, for anyone out there that has disease in their body, just praying for you lifting you up because that's so hard to live with illness. And his whole life has flipped upside down. He had bulls all over his body, right? Boy, yoles in pain, constant pain, never not in pain, can't sit, can't move, like, it's bad. And I never recognize this part. But first of all, his wife, okay, is challenging him.

Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die. Right? Like, she's challenging him. He's like, you were talking like a foolish woman. This is the line that I underlined. Shall we accept good from God and not trouble? Ooh.

I started crying right then and there. Right then in there. It's a tear drop right there. And all my pin kind of leaked a little bit right there. That was the first part I started crying. The second part I had never noticed talks about in verse 11, chapter two, verse 11 in Job, that his three friends heard about all these troubles. And it specifically says, I'm not going to read these names because I don't want to

embarrass myself here today. Elifaz, it's okay. The Timonite could have been from different regions. This is why they're being very specific. So you got friends that are in different places hearing about you going through issues, all sorts of things, and they all come from their places and spaces to meet you there. They don't tell him about scripture, which we need to, okay, but they don't slap a scripture on his pain. They don't diagnose his pain. They don't say, okay, we got resources too. so let us all come together and figure out how we can help you. Let's pray for healing over your body. No, let me tell you what they do.

When they saw him from a distance, they could hardly recognize him. They begin to weep out loud. Men, I just want to draw attention to that. Men are weeping on behalf of their brother. So at the very beginning, we see that men, it's okay to have emotions. I'm just going to put that out there.

Maybe that's another episode. Y'all can take that. They begin to weep. aloud and they tore their robes and sprinkled dust on their heads showing signs of distress. Verse 13. Then they sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights and no one said a word to him because they saw how great his suffering was. These men showed us what it is like to practice withness. I talk about that a lot in the book. It's a made-up word. It's not real. But I love it. Witness. Because sometimes your presence is enough in the pain. Yeah, the power.

They don't have to solve or, oh, girl, he wouldn't even that cute anyway. I'm going to make you feel better about the breakup. He wasn't that cute. Yes, he was. He was fine. I'm stalking him on Instagram through my dummy account. He was fine. Okay?

Oh, bro, like, she, you can get another one. It's fine. That whatever, man. No, literally we are seeing that one of the most powerful things that you can do with your people is to sit and be present. Be there. That's good. Literally showing us from the beginning that we have to get good at sitting with people in their pain. Yeah.

And celebrating them in all the progress and all the things that they're doing. That's awesome. Yeah. But we suck at being with people. Yeah. And we suck at letting people sit with us for seven days and let us cry. That's good. Oh, come on.

I think before we close, because you're- I have one more question, too. I just want to say. You're a busy woman. How has the Lord taught you even in the last? Mm-mm. I can't believe you. You're going to make me use this tissue?

No, I just think you've expressed even on social media how during just the writing of this book and all the things, how the Lord has even put you to the test of how to, you know, not do this alone. Can you express like just how what he's taught you about that? The Lord has revealed to me that I'm not good at receiving help in multiple. ways. At first, my journey was no one's, no one knows me for real. You can't actually see me because I won't let you. And I got real good at sharing all my business. I can cry with you to the best of them. The way the Lord is refining me in these past two years is, yeah, but are you willing to show your weakness in ministry, in motherhood? Are you willing to ask for help when you actually need it financially, that is breaking me. I think, and I'm grateful, because this is the kindness of the

Lord to refine me so that I have no pride in any area. No pride in all my business. That's been for years. But now I can have no pride in anything materialistic. And that is embarrassing. Yeah. And if it is the Lord's will, then he's doing something, and I'm not going to miss it. Yeah. And I haven't. I mean, you with the forward, this podcast episode, people put in their name on me. Like, you need to book her, invite her on your podcast.

Like, that's humbling me in ways. I genuinely, I was like, I'm a humble girl. Like, everyone knows everything. I'm not afraid to talk about my brokenness. Like, I got this. And the Lord's like, hmm. Right there. Yeah.

You got a little world in you, right there. And I need, oh, this makes so much sense. I'm wondering why the Lord put me in the book of Job. This makes it all, wow. I just got a revelation here on the podcast with the paris. Good Lord. I was wondering why he was like, go to the book of Job.

I've been to the book of John. So show us the connection. The connection is he lost everything. Not just ministry stuff, relationships. And the challenge was, will you praise God anyway? Yeah. Holy God. And then what God did do it then?

He gave him so much. More. More. Oh, my God. Come on. I would like to go now Okay Did you want to ask your question

I kind of feel like we needed to end on that But you're going to circle back still? No yeah I'm just kidding I'm down I just you know Everything that you said It was really really good

I think for me I don't know why when you were talking about your divorce and entering back into community I thought about a lot of the brothers that I disciple. Yeah.

I know a lot of times our community issues is because the opposite sex don't really know how to communicate with one another. Yeah. You know, a lot of the brothers that are disciples, they've been wounded by women. Yeah. And so it affects how they show up with their sisters in Christ. And I know a lot of times when you've been hurt by man. Yeah.

It's hard to come back into community, just period, but also come back into community and not be side-eyed men, you know what I'm saying? And so I guess from women who've been hurt by men, how do they come back into community and enter into healthy relationships and look at men like brothers and not the enemy. Okay, this is beautiful. I actually do feel like the Lord led you to ask this question. My daughter is almost 11. I have a son that just turned 3.

And I think I was just like pro women for so long. I'm raising a daughter. I'm creating resources for women to help them heal. we needed hashtag me too. I had that little boy. And when I tell you, I have such a heart for men. And it's new. Because for a second there, I was like,

I actually wish all men would evaporate like they did in the Marvel movie. Let them go. We don't need them. Let them go. They're causing damage. You know what I'm saying? And that's wrong, obviously. When I look at my son, I think I want so badly for him to have the same opportunities to pursue holiness,

healing, and wholeness as I believe that we have given to women. That's good. We have left the men behind. And I'm just going to say it. You don't know how much that would just bless me. Oh, okay. That bless me. I can see it.

Like I started to ask the Lord for, honestly, ways to help me raise my son, really, is what it came. from. And I started to see in the spiritual realm this, like, this decade that was sparked by the Me Too movement where all of these women started to come clean with their stories. We all found camaraderie and connection in Me Too, Me Too. We started sharing our stories. We started getting into counseling. Women are leading in so many ways. Graduating college, getting master's degrees, buying homes. Like it is, if you look at America and the progression of women, these past 10 to 15 years, years. I'm talking about passing up the men in everything. On one end, the feminist would say, well, that's deserved because we couldn't vote. We couldn't do this. And I am here and I see you

and I'm with you in some ways. And we are both made in the image of God. And this world is incomplete without men and women of God standing strong in their identities. And I just, you're my friend Terrence. He has an organization. You met him called him. Kill Pride Club. I'm like giving my all too. As much as I can repost him, it's a group of men that's meeting quarterly to do this, to be healing, whole. It's amazing because I'm like,

there's an imbalance and we have to recalibrate again. There was an imbalance with men and women. Now there's an imbalance with women and men, and now we need to recalibrate again. We cannot leave our sons behind. That's good. That's good. Well, man.

Show people your book, Tony. Oh. Don't try this alone. how to build deep community when you want to hide from your pain written by Tony Call your founder okay you're gonna do the whole thing I'll say founder of broken crayon steel color forward by Jackie Hill Perry yeah not only that we also are rocked oh yeah yeah it says healing healing and we got we got all we'll have all the links in the show notes hats merch that that the hats stop hiding start

healing. This is really dope. And it's comfortable. It's cozy. Actually. I know when I be wearing merch, people can't never see it because my hair. Because she gave me this head and I said. People were excited that you wore earrings. I saw that on one of your posts. Because you can see it because I had on. You can see your earrings. Yeah. I said, okay.

Yeah, Tony gave me this. I said, this is actually dope. She said, I know you're telling the truth because you said actually. Uh-huh. It is dope. It is dope. Thank you guys. But in closing, one, we love you. I love you, Tony. I appreciate you. Care for you. The Lord is clearly giving me an affection for you. It ain't like I don't have one, but it's like... Surprising. It's like, I trust this girl. I don't know.

What's going on in my heart? But if you could pray for the people who are... They want to do it alone, but they just need the courage to push through that. I want to cry already. It's all right. Thinking about the people. All right, let's pray. Yes.

Lord, we love you. We're so glad that you're present. in every way. You're present with us when our lives seem to be going so good, and you are so present with us in the valleys. Lord, I just pray over your people. I pray that they would remember that the neighbor that they kind of sort of don't like, the coworker that gets on their nerves, their sons and daughters that are just messing up the whole house, their husband or wife that betrayed them, are sons and daughters of you, Lord. Help us remember that you, You made humanity with an intention and a design.

And it was to carry your message and love your people. Lord, would you help us to remember that when we're hurting? Would you help us to remember that you are our healer and not our friends? Would you help us to remember that we get to surrender to a savior? And from that surrender, we have protection. We have an everlasting peace, even when life is hard. Lord, build us up. put people in our minds to connect with, to have conversations with, help us to forgive in the

areas that we need to forgive. Help us to be good, godly friends. Change us so that we can reflect you and love your people real well. We love you, Lord, in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Bye y'all. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride. video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley edited by the team at Tread Lively artwork by hop and music by swoop thank you for listening now go with God