With The Perrys - Managing Friendship Trauma and the Fear of Cultivating New Ones

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

Trauma can show up in all relationships, not just romantic ones. And “friendship trauma” may sound dramatic, but experiences with others can legitimately affect your view of yourself, even the concept of friendship in general. In this episode, the Perrys talk about what it looks like to be a good friend, and how we need to work through past hurt and doubt to engage in future, healthy friendships.   This episode of With The Perrys is Sponsored by: https://lifeway.com/ephesiansstudy — Join us as we study through the book of Ephesians. https://www.covenanteyes.com — Try Victory by Covenant Eyes FREE for 30 days with promo code PERRYS! Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I feel like you should say hi this time. Wait. We started. Oh, we started. Mm-hmm. You got to say hi. We didn't pray. Okay.

How about we pray? Because we usually pray before episodes. How we pray during the episode first. Okay. I had thought that the prayer that you prayed for the last episode covered this one. No, we need a fresh anointing. Okay. Go ahead.

The Lord bless this episode in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Hey man I hope he heard it Oh that they pop right off the wall And laying back up on you

No no he heard he hears everything that That's sprayed with my face You should show the people your house shoes Because the more I look at them The more I say you know I should buy him some more Look man When you break something in You don't start over

Is that a piece of gum there Yeah Yeah it's character That's called character I didn't know that was right there though but, you know, it's life. Because you, we got ads on podcast now. And so I know for a fact, we could, I know we could buy you some more.

You want me to do it? No, they feel so good. You know how when you break something in, it fits to the groove of your foot? Them was like 1999 and you got them from Amazon like five years ago. I remember when you bought them. So I know they don't feel as good as they could. It's just something that you're used to. So you think that it's comfortable, but it's not.

But we've bonded. I bonded with these shoes. We got a relationship. I just, yeah, nah. If you buy me some, you know, maybe these could be my outdoor house shoes. Just throw them away. No, no, no, no. Just toss them.

No, we, see, that's a piece of gum on the shoes. That's the thing with you Americans. You waste money. Like, these can be my outdoor house shoes. I could use these to take out the trash. And then. Is that where the gum came from? Do you take those outside?

About five times. Five times and five years. And then you walk up in here. and just act like... It's not a lot. Okay. Okay, let's stop bringing up my sentence. So what we're talking about today?

So we were talking... I don't know what we were talking about when we were talking about it, but we were saying like, I think it would be helpful to talk about how trauma shows up in relationships and all relationships, because I think it is commonplace to talk about how trauma shows up in romantic relationships. But I think trauma shows up in all relationships. relationships, right? And to say trauma, I simply mean the effects of sins against you. So abuse, manipulation, being lied on, betrayed, abandoned, all the stuff, right? I think being born into a

world where sin exists is inherently traumatic. Yeah, it is. We will always be suffering at the hands of other people on some level, right? But I've seen just even like me having to work through friend trauma sounds dramatic. Yeah. No, but I don't mean to be dramatic. Like having friendships that have legitimately

affected your view of yourself and the concept of friendship, period, me having to work through that to even be able to engage in new relationships. Yeah, for sure. I feel like everybody is going through that. Yeah. Facts.

And I love what you said about this fallen world because it's like, people would be like, I haven't experienced trauma. I don't need. It's like, no, we don't live in this broken world and this fallen world without experiencing many forms of trauma through relationships, through our own personal experiences. And especially, you know, I feel like I do like, like what you said, I do feel like it's a season where everybody around me is experiencing friend, friend trauma.

Yes. It's like. I don't know who I was, it might have been Megan or something. somebody else. But we were, I was like, I feel like I haven't seen this much content around the subject of friendship this much. Yeah. Except in the last year or two.

Whereas it's a lot of TikToks. It's a lot of content. And I'm like, I feel like we're trying to reckon with what friendship looks like post-pandemic. Yeah. Right? Because I think the pandemic revealed and exacerbated a lot of things. I think some relationships fell off. Some relationships started.

I think people's church. experiences change, which then changed their friendships, right? And I think that statistically loneliness is at an all-time high. So we also are recognizing our need for people. So we're trying to figure that thing out. Yeah, I think the pandemic really affected a lot of us, and which traumatized a lot of us when it came to the area of friendship. Because, you know, from my observation, you know, what I've experienced or what I witnessed during the pandemic, is I think a lot of people doing the pandemic fell away from communities

walked away from the Lord so friendships from a spiritual aspect was affected I know a lot of people who had friends who you know when they wasn't connected to a local church body they was finding themselves in hooklounges and you know just you know out there whatever and I feel like eating lamb shops whatever I feel like that kind of crab cakes

which those things aren't in the hair. Who said that that was the quintessential meal for black people? Who made that up? That's a lot of the thing. Hooka, Hennessy, and lamb chops. Something about it feels racist. That they think that that is the quintessential recipe to make a black person happy.

Who said I like lamb? How you know I don't want scallops? Right. And brunch. It's a shrimp and grits. every time every time everything has 5,000 pounds of sugar

how do you know I don't want to live longer than this sorry no yeah yeah I do think that a lot of people was affected you know and have been wounded by people and it shows up in their everyday life you know and I do think

I think we said that we probably we always repeat things in the spot cast but I do think that being trying to be friends as, you know, as you get older, it becomes harder. And I think one of the reasons why it becomes harder is because you have experienced more trauma. You have more. Interesting. Yeah, you have more baggage. Like when you 11, you ain't, you ain't lived life like that.

It's like you experience some type of trauma. But as you get older, the more and more people you encounter, the more you're going to be traumatized. and you know this is the reason why we bring you know our past traumas I think into new relationships is because people have wounded us and so a lot of times I think you know people use this language like I'm doing me or I'm looking out the best you know for me this is my season where I have to like self-care I think that self-care is really just you're trying to preserve yourself from not being wounded because you've been you've been hurt by people and um you're you're Yeah. And so I've experienced, I think everybody has experienced or will experience that, you know.

I feel like there's a freedom to women talking about how other women have hurt them and therefore affected their, their friendships or relationships. But what would, how would, because I don't want to overuse the word trauma, because even saying it like there aren't other synonyms are bothering me. So what are some of the ways. that men experience, you know, pain and friendships that affects the way they engage. Because I want to honor the fact that men are humans and therefore have emotions and can be hurt and can show up in the world carrying that baggage and that hurt without actually communicating it. Man, I know this, this, I know this conversation is not necessarily geared towards romantic relational trauma.

But, you know, I think, you know, one of the reasons why we see. see and we probably talked about it on the podcast. I'm sorry that it looks like I'm giving you a cold shoulder. I just feel very comfortable. It's all good. It's all good. You know, do you? I didn't want you to traumatize you.

No, we kind of touched on it from a different angle with the podcast with Ezekiel. But about like Kevin Samuels and all of that. But I do think that the whole Kevin Samuels to Andrew Tate emergence of of them being really popular in mainstream, you know, social media and all of that, they were able to be successful because they capitalized off the past traumas of the way men have been hurt, you know, and the way men have been wounded. I did a, I think I just said this on the last podcast, but I did ministry in Texas this a couple of the days ago.

Lubbock, Texas. I did ministry in Lubbock, Texas. And afterwards, this guy walked up to me and he was like, you know, can I talk to you on side? And he was like, man, I want some relationship advice. He's a young dude. I think he was a second year in college. And he was like, man, you know, it seems like you and Jackie watching you guys online have a really good relationship. And he was like, what encouragement can you give to a man like me who wants to be a, who has a desire to be a husband, who has a desire to be a father.

But every single relationship that I get in with women, I feel like they devalue me. I feel like they take advantage of my niceness. I feel like they take advantage of the fact that I was raised right. And I don't want to show up. And one of the things I told them, I said, man, I think one of the enemy's schemes is to affect you with people that God hasn't even called to you. Like these women that you have been involved with time after time and time again, I was like, man, that's not even the woman that God called you to. And what the enemy wants you to do. the enemy wants you to come into a new relationship.

Your wife probably in Florida one right now. And she going to end up in Lubbock, Texas next year. And y'all going to meet in Starbucks because you're going to look at her and you're going to see a little twink on the eye, whatever. And I was like, the enemy wants you to go into that relationship with all of this past with woundedness. And I said, I think what God was to do is learn from these things so that you can be a better husband to her when you finally meet her.

And so I do think that's one aspect. I think another aspect, you know, and I don't necessarily think this is men, but I know for me, I've had that, you know, I've been affected by, you know, women, but I also been affected by male leadership. I think male leadership has affected a lot of men in the church, you know, because men, like I said, want to be disciples. We want to, we want men that can pour into us, that can, you know, that can invest in us. And a lot of times when men go to the church, especially if the church doesn't have a discipleship culture,

I've known a lot of men become wounded over that. Do you think that if a man has experienced abandonment from his dad, then that kind of intensifies what feels like abandonment from pastors? Oh, for sure. For sure. Because I think that God, the way in which God designs things, like if we pay attention to it, we have this natural desire to want it.

And so if we haven't experienced fatherhood in that way, you know, we can subconsciously kind of like feel that void in other spaces. And so for me, it was a guy who was a friend of mine, a little older than I was a new Christian. And he looked like my dad. And he talked like my dad. that and he act like my dad. And I remember wanting him around. And the Lord kind of revealed to me that

you wanted him around because he reminded you of your dad. And but I, but I thought to myself, I was like, man, if my dad was actually around in my life growing up the way I wanted him to be, I probably wouldn't have that desire to want Darnell in my life like that. And I do think that when men come into the body of Christ, if they've experienced father hurt, they, when they look for father figures in the church and those father figures feel, them by moral failures or fail to invest in them and fail to, I do think a lot of men become wounded in the church because they want, they want, they want somebody to look up to. They want somebody to teach them, you know?

And so God created us in that way. I think that's helpful because when we were talking about this offline, I said, I think that one of the things that therapy did for me is therapy didn't necessarily heal me, but it made me aware. And so I'm able to identify what we would call a trigger, like a situation or an emotion that makes me feel a kind of way and trace it to its source. Work with that. So I don't basically, I don't deal with people according to a past pain, but I deal with them in the present. And so I think, for example, you very well could have men within certain churches who are being perceived as rebellious or being perceived as not unsubmissive.

when really what's happening is they are living inside of this fear of rejection and fear of abandonment from another man. So they're not submitting to a figure that they don't trust will stay. My God. So it's like what if we started to even wrestle with those feelings so as to create men who are more just present and willing to work within a drug? This is the reason why I think the therapy is good in the body of Christ because I think sometimes people think they're,

Replaces Christ, but it's like, no, like it digs up things so that we can deal with them in a spiritual manner, right? It digs. Let me ask you this question, though, you know, I can imagine, well, you've seen you as your husband, I've seen you do a lot of work and going to therapy, processing your emotions, getting to the root. Praise the Lord on my soul. Oh, my soul. Worship his home. I'm going to just wait to you. your finish. Okay. Then I never before. Oh, what was that? She said,

Oh, my soul. Go ahead. I've seen you do a lot of work. And processing your emotions, processing your trauma, getting to the root of like, man, like coming back to next or two days later, like, this is the reason why I feel this way. Yeah.

What advice? I am very self-analytical. Yeah, what advice can you give? Because I think a lot of times trauma shows up in our lives and we don't even realize it. For sure. And we operate out of that trauma through relationships, through church relationships, to romantic relationship, marriages or whatever. And we don't even recognize the way we have, the way we show up now is a result of trauma.

We kind of look at it as all, I'm just in a new season of life. Or this is who I am. It's like, no, actually people who wounded you help shape you into the person that you are. And we begin to function like that. And so how can one begin to identify how trauma has affected the way they do life with people? Oh, man. It's so much. There is obviously therapy, but I think before that is knowing that you serve a God who knows your heart.

Break that down. I mean, God sees everything. He knows why you do what you do. And so that means that even having a prayerful submission to God and being like David who says, Lord, if there is any evil way in me, right? So like some of the revelation that I received about my own heart comes by way of me depending on God to constantly reveal me to me. Okay.

And so he will do that through people. He may do that through dreams. He may do that in your private prayer time. He will do that through the word. And I think when you only trust, entrust yourself to therapy and not also to worship and sanctification, you know a lot about you,

but you don't know a lot about God to even know how maybe what you are and how you are is antithetical to who he is. Do you know how, wait, no, no, do you know how that, knew how deep that was? No, no, no, no, wait, Paul, you said it in a very normal way, but that was actually really deep. Did it make sense, though?

No, it made, it made a lot of sense. Because you have a lot of people who go do work, who go get therapy, but they're still the same. Or they're more narcissistic because they're still, they're still centering themselves in everything just because they're more self-aware. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But how does my self-awareness lead me into repentance? lead me towards healing and therefore leads me towards worship. And so I think for me, that's what it's done. It's shown me, you know what?

You need the Lord. Because what you're essentially saying is, man, I can do some self-digging, right? And I can get some stuff revealed about me. But if I don't go to God, right, and learn more about him, like his healing, his peace, his joy, his even solution or how you can be led back into worship will never change you. And so a lot of times people become so self-aware, but they never be changed. Yeah, because it's also, for example, let's get very practical. Let me add this caveat real quick.

If I have identified something in me that is problematic that is a coping mechanism that I developed because of some previous trauma, I can learn. how to move different and be a better person, but the Bible also says that whatever does not come from faith is sin. So let's say I become a better person, but not a more faithful person, I'm still not right before God. So I might actually have better relationships, but my relationship with the Lord is not substantial.

And so I think that's why the motivation has to be, if I see myself more clearly, I still need to take what I see to his throne so he can do a work in me so I honor him and not just show up as a better person. And I also think that if the relationships become better, it can potentially just be temporary because if we don't go to the Lord, like we're going to end up jacking something up, you know? Potentially. And I think that God, you know, also too, even stuff being revealed about you is also a mercy from God, right? So let's start there. But like even when it's revealed, it's like, no, God wants to, to bring

healing like true healing not just understanding with true healing and that's good another thing i think that can help us identify though um is honesty like like real honesty and um confessing that honesty with people consistently you know um what does that look like because for example um the other day um uh oh yeah yeah yeah we've been building with a pastor right and and really cool dude. And me and you like him, you know. And one of the first things he did, you know, when he met me, he was like, man, he actually met me out in public and we was eating.

And then a guy walked up who worshiped his ancestors and I evangelized to him. And he was like, and a dude actually, I'm going to tell the whole story one day on a podcast because it was crazy. But the dude kind of got violent with me and I didn't really. back down or whatever and he was like yo that was I've never seen anything like that and so the first thing he did was like a couple of days later he um like invited me to his church to kind of do evangelism training and I immediately felt guarded when he did that because I get invited you know by strangers all the time to go speak about evangelism and apologetics and stuff like that but when I build relationships I've had I've had men and churches, one, either take advantage of me because of my gifts and use my

gifts up when they don't really love me, I feel like, or I've had churches who kind of just ignored my gifts. I've been wounded in both ways, and I didn't even know why I felt the way I felt. Like, when I sent that text, I didn't even know why I felt weird. And so what I had to do is I had to, one, not automatically assume and not even go into myself and not push him away, because I think a lot of times his motives can be completely pure, which I think they were. But I think a lot of times when we've been wounded in somebody texts us, we don't even like to be honest with ourselves. We don't like to process with others.

And so we push people away who actually have good motives. That's good. You know? And so what I had to do is I had to immediately confess how I felt, had to be honest, and I have to process it to you. Yeah. And you kind of helped me see and the Lord that I was bringing my. It was the Lord. It was the Lord, right?

And using you that I'm kind of, I'm kind of bringing in my past traumas into, and I mean, incorporating into this situation, which is trauma. Right. And so I do think honesty. And let me say this. What, what to even be more specific, being undervalued or overused developed a fear. Yes. So that's really what you were experienced is I'm afraid that this person does not actually love me more than they love my gift. Yeah. Yeah. But it also too, that fear, and this is the

reason why the Bible says that God has not given us a spirit of fear. And one of the reasons why I think fear is so dangerous is because fear makes us look inwardly and not outwardly. Because what this man saw is a gift in me that can help them. the body, but because fear has made me look inwardly, I didn't even think about all the people at the church that can be blessed by my gift. Yeah. Right? And so what I did was I immediately looked inside instead of saying, man, of course she'd been

wounded in the past. That doesn't negate the fact that you still have a gift that God gave you, not for yourself, but for the body of Christ and for the edification of his people, right? And so I think that's the reason why fear is so. fear is dangerous in multiple ways. I think that's one of the reasons my fear is so dangerous. It's because it does not make us love people. It only makes us inwardly think about ourselves.

Because we develop self-protective strategies that are a result of us trusting ourselves to protect ourselves more than trusting God to protect us. Good. Right? I know that because that's my whole life is when they bullied you, when your dad, He walked out on you. Not walked out. He never walked in.

But when, when, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Daddy wasn't there to take me to the fair. Wait a minute. He said he didn't care. You remember that song? Y'all don't remember this song?

Wait a minute. Y'all remember Tom Green? Nobody from MTV. Wait a minute. He had testicular cancer. So here's the thing. Oh, my gosh. It's always,

It's always hard for me to stop laughing when the whole camera crew starts laughing. Because you said, hold on, he never walked out. He never walked in. Wait a minute. Why would you say something so reckless? He wasn't there. So I said, I said all that to say, this is such a great way to make light of your trauma. Hey, that's another strategy.

Instead of feeling how you feel, you make jokes. Anyway, I think, yeah, it don't matter. It's just, you know, we just be out here, projecting all to people, things that aren't true and real. and having to work through that type of stuff. Can I ask you another question? Yes. How has working through your trauma, like doing the hard work? I've seen you do the hard work made you a better Christian,

made you a better disciple. And you still have the things that you're working through, of course. Will for the rest of my life. I mean, first and foremost, I think my theological lens is really, I'm saying the same thing. said 10 minutes ago. But to me, the broken parts of me simply reveal how much I need the Lord. And so it's made me much more humble. I'm not as quick to think highly of myself. Because how can you when you see how broken and messed up you are? So I think I think the Lord has used it to preserve me.

but I also think, I think the, so I feel like the way God makes people, I've said this before, that there are ways that the way he makes you, makes you useful, and there's a shadow side to the usefulness. So I think because I'm so analytical and philosophical in many ways, I think my ministry is so useful because I see through things. Yeah. Right. Like I see, I just see stuff. And so I'm able to communicate it with death. Even when I get in the scripture, I'm thinking through how do I get underneath Hagar? How do I get inside of John's mind? How do I understand how to apply what Paul is saying in a way that's not superficial?

Yeah. That's the beautiful thing. The shadow side of that is that means that I can struggle with shame. And I can struggle with depression because I'm able to see through things. And because I think so deeply about myself. And you're able to see yourself. Yeah. So like you can become so introspective that you actually loathe yourself.

because I see how messed up I am. I see why I do what I do. And so you become frustrated with yourself and be like, God dang it, get it together. Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. So I have to wrestle with that. So I guess that's the answer.

And a person like you who is always thinking. Always, incessantly. Yeah, and a lot of times those thoughts about yourself, in the same way, you have random thoughts. about deep philosophical, then we're in the bed and we're watching something not spiritual. Ooh, you know what I think about? You know what I just thought about? And it's random because you're always thinking.

And so because you're always processing, I can imagine how hard it is for a person like you who has a random thought about yourself that's not pleasant. It catches you off guard in such a way that can put you in a state of depression. And I think that if you can submit that to the Lord, the Lord can use it not to depress you, but to keep you humble, to keep you aware. Because here's the challenge. It's God made my mind the way he made it. This is a gift.

But the challenge is what if that analytical mind thought about God more than anything. That's good. So like set your mind on things above. Yeah. So I think that's the challenge is not to despise the way. the Lord has made me think, but to submit and surrender the way the Lord has made me think. I think as that relates to even relationships and friendships is that, I haven't shared this a lot, but, you know, I was bullied in school.

Yeah. And that really did a doozy on my view of myself. Yeah. Because, you know, I'm going, I was eight joining a new school, introverted, awkward, all the stuff. and to have an entire year of people treating you like you are absolutely trash. Like as a child and your daddy ain't home. You don't have nobody saying, no, you're beautiful. You're cute.

You're smart. Like, you don't got nothing to offset the abuse. So I think the view that it's given me of myself is that I'm also in my thinking patterns, hypervigilant around watching people's behavior to see if they're safe or not. Right. Yeah. And so that becomes crazy when you feel like I've read you, I see through you, therefore I can let you in. When sometimes God is like, just trust me.

Yeah. Because you don't see them like I see them. Yeah. So when are you going to actually entrust me to provide people and just trust that they're safe because I said so? Wow. Like why do you have to depend on your own observations to trust situations when that means you're trusting in yourself all the time? Yeah. And they still felt you.

Now what? So now you feel shame. Yeah. because I didn't, I didn't, I did not see that. Why did not like watch that? I didn't, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, because the thing is. It's crazy.

Because the thing is, it's like, man, like God allows us. Does this make sense? Because I feel like I'm letting y'all into. No, it definitely makes sense. The inner workings. You're trying to, like, what you're expressing is, like, when I, because you're analytical and you see things in people, you know, a lot of times it's a temptation to, to guard yourself from what you see.

But it's like, no, God. God is actually calling all of us to enter into relationships not thinking about how we will be wounded. Oh, man. Because how dare you say such a thing? No, seriously. Like, you're saying we should, we're supposed to just be free? Like literally, free. Because the thing is, if God is calling us to be in community with people who have not received their glorified body.

My God. That means he's called. calling us to embrace the suffering of doing life with other falling human beings. That's exactly what he's calling us to do. And it's like, how can we not run away from it and try to protect ourselves from the inevitable, right? But to lean into the fact that God is in control over all things for those who love him and who are called according to his purpose. I don't like it. I know you don't like it.

But it's the truth. And so a lot of times, ASMR, I don't like it. Yeah, it's all like, I mean, and I feel like in our marriage, I feel like we've helped each other in different ways. But, you know, as my role as a husband, I feel like I've tried to help you embrace that. And you had to help me embrace many things when it came to trusting people and stuff like that. But yeah, we just got to lean into it. I think something you said triggered a conversation that we had with CD one time. And I don't only remember specifically what it was talking about, but it was kind of.

kind of this idea that being guarded and leaning into your fear of pain, it puts you in a position where you may not be, you may not be hurt, perhaps, but you also won't be loved. And so there's, there's this real, like, reality where it's like, you guard yourself so much that you're not able to love or receive it to the degree that God would want for you to enjoy. Now, on the other end, I also don't think God is advocating for us to be fools. No. Right? So like, I'm kind of awesome in me trying to practice trusting God is my refuge.

It's God, I saw this in this person. I'm observing these things. You show me how you want me to move. So instead of me seeing stuff and making conclusions on how I move by entrusting or leaning on my own understanding, and it's me taking what I've made survey of and bringing it before God and even you. So like even me and you had a conversation the other day. And I was like, I feel paranoid because I've had so many people in my life recently who are just in my life because they want to be in my life, but not because they love me. Hello?

And so I feel this paranoia around people. And I was like, did you think this person like love me for real? or you think they just want to be around me. And so like me inviting you even into my thinking process. That's good, yeah. So I knew, so I can know when I'm actually just tripping. Yeah. I just said like a lot of things.

No, no, you do say a lot of things. It's really good. For me, I have that paranoia. But I think about Jesus. And I think about Jesus in the sense that we're thinking about. Yeah, yeah, in relation to this. when I think about what I just said as far as like leaning into entering into relationships that could potentially wound us and not being concerned, that being the primary

concern, but just trusting God, I think I'm grateful that we serve a great high priest in Jesus who literally did that. When I think about Jesus, I think about when Judas portrayed Jesus in the Garden of Gatsimity, when he says, you Judas have portrayed the son of a man with a kiss, right? And we have to understand how hurt Jesus was.

Like he came into this world to live with Judas, to love Judas, to watch Judas's feet knowing that Judas would betray him. Right? But Jesus, the reason why he was able to endure,

Judas's betrayal, it's because he was more concerned with the glory of God than he was his own feelings. Right? And so, you know, I think even in that great high priestly prayer in John 17, you know,

it says, he says, Father, now receive these little ones that I've kept, right? Talking about his disciples except the one we predest, except the son of destruction, but the one we predestined, right? And so he literally means received Peter, John, Simon, all these people, right, except Judas. And so he knew,

right? And before he came, he knew that Judas would be Judas. But he still, he still chose to enter into relationship with him, which is, and to love him well. I honor that perspective. I think it is biblical. I think it is godly. But Judas also wasn't there on the Mount of Transfiguration. So I'm only advocating that there are also boundaries. Yes. That we put around evil. Yes. And unhealthy people.

Yeah. Yeah. And so when I'm not saying, yeah. I know you're not. Yeah, yeah. I want to clarify because that what you just said makes me feel like I should clarify. When I'm not clarifying is that you should just, oh, are you a Judas coming to my life? That's not what I'm saying.

Yes. Praise God. Right. But what I am saying is, is that God will, you. use all of it. Okay. Yeah. That's good. That's all out. That's all I'm saying. And when we try on our own strengths, right? Because Jesus has, of course, he has an advantage that we don't have because he knew Judas would betray him. We don't know who will portray us. But when we try by our own

power and our own strengths to try to determine, are they trustworthy, are they trustworthy, are they trustworthy, we end up jacking things up. And maybe the person would portray you. And maybe that portrayal will teach you something about God that will counterpulture your ministry. Maybe that portrayal or that hurt will teach you something about love that will help you become a better wife or a better father. Right. And so we have to understand that God is sovereign and we are not. And so Jesus became a man, right, to live amongst us to experience failed relationships

for the glory of God to teach us how to do so as well. That's the point that I'm trying to make. And the truth is we also, though we have all been on the receiving end of sins against us, we have also been on the end of doing the same. Maybe not in the same way, maybe not to the same degree, but we have all failed other people. And I think in the last few months, I've been really reckoning with the idea of what would it look like for me to be a good friend.

Yeah. Because I think I've thought so much about, how people treat me and how people show up for me and how people have wounded me and how people but I haven't reflected on how all of those wounds and fears and thinking and and and really just self-centered viewpoints about people this way that I haven't that I missed all the moments and opportunities to be good to people yeah you know what I'm saying and so that's been an interesting exploration to to think through that's really good yeah it's a thing Yeah.

But we're all, we're all in process. God is sanctifying us all. He's using everything. And I just want to just encourage us. We know this, but I think we have to constantly tell it. We need people. Yeah. We really, really do need people.

And I made, the Lord spoke to me probably, this is a year ago where I realized it was like, Lord, you tell me who you want me to be friends with. I'm going to stop. making decisions based on my own value of my own ability to reason and observe. Yeah. Like, you show me who you want me to build with. You show me who you want me to disciple. You show me who you just want me to hang out with from time to time.

You show me who you want me to cut off because there are some people that do need to be cut off. Hello. You show me what, like, what seasons are ending and what season are beginning. I'm going to entrust my social circle to the Lord. That's good. That's a good word. Because I'm obviously bad at it. Amen.

Bye. Peace. With the Parish is produced by the Parys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, Abashai Perez, and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop, and Music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.