With The Perrys - Men, Marriage, Sex, and Kevin Samuels

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

We're kicking off Season Six with our brother, Ezekiel Azonwu. Listen in as Ezekiel and Preston give us a sneak peek of what to expect on their upcoming We Need To Talk Tour. Culture discourages men from being in community, and many men are confused about their call and spiritual giftedness. But guys are crying out for discipleship and voices in close proximity to them that will build them up. Let’s talk about it. Connect with Ezekiel on Instagram at @wordsbyezekiel, and get your tickets for the tour at weneed2talktour.com. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Saints and Ains. Welcome back to 30 Minutes with the Perry's. It's been a while. It's been a minute. It's been a couple months. Yeah, man. We've been doing a lot of things. A whole lot of things.

But we're here. A lot of testosterone here on this episode. It's Preston Perry. He's a man. And then we have another man. Hey. His name is Ezekiel. Yes, ma'am.

So I'm sitting on the corner like, you know, what's the people that be interviewing people? Like, Lino, and all them people. Jay Leno. Yeah, all them. Yeah. I'm sitting on the corner because I'm going to interview y'all, right? Because I'm not male. I just want to talk through just masculinity, fatherhood, manhood, Kevin Samuels, whoever.

Who, R.P. Peace is debatable. But. Yo. I'm just saying, now everybody goes to heaven. We're not universalists. But in God's great kindness, he is able to redeem anybody. He is.

Anywho. So what is? What is on y'all's heart as it relates to men, masculinity? I'll just, I'll make the umbrella very wide. What is on your heart? You want to go first? I just want to say, man, I think it's really important that we're having this conversation. I think from afar a lot of people look into the lives of Preston.

They look into my life and see our families and see us thriving. And we are thriving. I'm not going to put our quotations on that. We're thriving. We love our wives. and we have our struggles, but whatever the case may be, from the outside looking and it seems like it's easy. Seems like we understand it. I think for the most part, we're figuring it out.

However, I think it's really important that we put our ears to the heartbeat of the culture, to the men and to the women, and understand what's actually happening right now. Because I feel like there's extreme attacks happening. and the more we disconnect and find comfort in the nucleus of our families and in our marriages and with our kids will be more disconnected from what God is calling us to. And I believe he's calling us to his kingdom to build specifically men as men. And to share our experience, to share the insight and wisdom as we figure it out, as he's giving knowledge wisdom. And I look at you as somebody who is extremely wise and I believe God is granting us wisdom. And if we don't actively pour in two men in this particular pivotal season,

I think that we're being grossly negligent and irresponsible with what God has given us. Yeah, yeah, I agree. These last couple of months, I've really felt a burden to pour into the lives of young men more. Because you've said it, and we've said it before, but I really believe that there is an extreme attack on men, to displace us, to confuse our roles as leaders, to discourage us from being in community, making men feel misunderstood about their call, even in their spiritual giftiness. And just even relationally, like, you know, men, men, you know, have. communicated to me that they felt torn down, that they, you know, in churches when they

are not ready to get married, they feel like, man, like it's almost like it's an indictment on my character because I'm not ready to say I do to somebody. And so it's just so many things that I feel like we go through because, you know, God has called us to be leaders. And so, you know, the enemy knows, you know, if you want to attack a family unit or even a body, you cut the head off the snake. And so, yeah, and so I told Jackie, I had an event in D.C. last week. And every single guy that walked up to me was either crying out for discipleship. One guy came to me and literally said, I asked five people to disciple me, and they all said, no.

And then he started crying. And he was like, you talk about discipleship. And I follow you because you talk about discipleship, but nobody would disciple me. another guy walked up to me and said he just got married and he doesn't know what he's doing his wife got pregnant on a honeymoon like we did and he said but I don't know

no solid churches and I feel this spiritual pressure to get my family in a church so he has all of this burden as a leader right and so a lot of times these guys be out here really stressing themselves out and yeah it just they look for other things to

to relieve their stress because they just need help. And so, yeah, my heart really goes out for merry men, you know, single men, all men, really. I'm wondering, y'all have you've been in Christ your whole life. You've been in Christ about 15, 16 years. 06. When you examine, I guess, even the landscape of many of the men that you have conversations with, one, are they your age? So are these struggles dependent on per generation

or is it just kind of like across the board? It's across the board. It's across the board. With that, is there, do you see like the, I guess the culture shifting in a particular way? Like even when you think about the discouragements or the temptations or the fears, are they the same fears that men have always been dealing with

or in this era culturally, is there a different intensity to it? Because I'm ignorant of it. Yeah, what's crazy to me is, I feel like, like my men audience publicly has grown in a particular type of way because I think we all initially had the same audience where we had like black church and that was older men we had the older generation and the younger generation and then me and jackie started doing you know other

things but then when i got bold tv when i started to do evangelism videos men kind of star my my men audience grew and that's when i started getting all of these younger guys coming to me and I'm like, yo, these men out here are struggling. You know, and this is not even just, when you say culturally, I'm thinking like, because I have white guys, white men. Like, it's not even like, you know, black church. I don't even mean black. I mean, you know, like, for example, even among women,

one attack might be, you know, you have to modify your body in such a way to be appealed. Oh, okay. I don't think that was a thing in 1991, right? Oh, yeah. And so is there a particular, like, cultural kind of wind? Oh, okay. I get what you're saying.

that men are being like subjected to. I think it's the disease of social media. Social media has his benefits. But I think with the benefits, we've been exposed to so much more. And so there's this comparison issue that a lot of men are dealing with to see men that are young and successful

or to see people projecting success, projecting good marriage, projecting perfection. It intensifies that pressure. Like, oh, man, when they find out our ages, it's just like, dang, I'm 35, what do I got? I don't got no kids. I don't got this going on. And so it intensifies that. And on top of that, it also kind of heightens this desire for more.

And not in a way that it makes me say like, you know, no one should want more. But it's almost like when the world opens up in a way like that. Back in the day in the 1940s in your neighborhood, if you saw a beautiful woman, that would be the one beautiful woman you saw for six. months. Now, it's like, there are millions of beautiful women. Wow. And they're getting with regular guys. And so it's like my eyes start, you know, my eyes don't cease to be open.

It's just like, okay, so I got to do this. I got to flex. I got, and so we're getting all this information and we're being bombarded by wrong information. So I think confusion now is at a high. Yeah, because I think what social media has done, social media has made, because social media it really hasn't created a lot. It just made everything loud

and made everything just like in your face. And so like men, we have a lot of options, but I think a lot of men are being compared to unrealistic expectations. Who's doing the comparison? Like when you say that, what do you mean? One, I think when... So I've seen particular sites or particular pages

where if a standard is presented on social media, you see a slew of comments like that's why these men ain't out here doing this or this is not a real man. And that's one thing I hate. Okay. I hate when people would take one thing that a man does and not make them a real man, as if you can define who they are by one action, right? God defines us as men, like one. And so not the culture, not your standards. Like God gives us that standard.

And so I think, you know, you know, and I think the same thing can be said about women. social media allows people to pull from these sources and then compare men to what they think men are through social media. And it's just like, no, like what we need to learn how to be men is in local communities of discipleship, not through social media. And so I think social media just makes things really loud, muddy. And I think a lot of men who are not disciple can be affected by social media in that way, by listening to voices in the culture, who, who's telling you who you are from afar and not listening to people in close proximity

to build you up. And I think... And that's a good point because every man is being disciples. Yeah. But what voice is disciplining them? Yeah, yeah. If you're bombarded with all of these messages, you're going to form some type of ideology.

You're going to form some type of perspective of God, which is a theology based on these multiple voices. And so if that is not like... I'm getting these same voices. I'm on the same social media, but I have discipleship, which allows me to filter the voices that I hear. But if you don't have that filtration system,

then you're being disciples effectively by poison. Yeah, because when I talk to men lately, it's just like, you're coming to me with all these issues, but I wonder how much of these issues have you learned in the context of your local community and how much you have you gotten from the toxic stuff in this culture. Maybe you need to get off social media, you know what I'm saying? It really finds somebody who can walk with you,

but to answer your question on another thing another thing that men have told us lately is they feel like that the culture and society is trying to like over-feminize men they feel like I don't know if you remember the conversation we had with the with the gazi of the other week

but they was just like you know one I think there has been a over-emphasis of therapy of men Shan their, you know, their personal feelings, but they feel like a lot of women in the church, you know, what's the word? Give a crutch to... What they were kind of basically saying was

it feels like the church is catering to women and ignoring the voices and needs and concerns of men that the messages are catering to women. The theology that is being preached is catering to women. and almost kind of marginalizes men, which almost forces them into the arms of this red pill community that says, finally we're being heard. Finally, someone is speaking to my pain.

Because when you hear someone like Kevin Samuel speaks, you know that he's been hurt and he's been jaded in some way. And so for every broken man that wants to get it off his chest, and I've been there to, man, a girl that really did you dirty, and now I can form an ideology and understanding that speaks to, to my pain. Like, I'm going to navigate to that because the pastors is not speaking to my pain. All the, everyone else that has these ideal relationships are not speaking to my pain.

So why not someone who finally says, yeah, you're not all that. Yeah, you shouldn't be rejecting me. Yeah, you shouldn't have, you know, did me dirty. And so it makes it so much easier to gravitate. And let me say this real quick, but let me say this real quick. One reason why I think this is possible is because I think, people started to catch when that if you can, even in the Christian community, if you can capture the heart of the female audience, you can make a lot of money.

You can be very lucrative. Everybody knows that the female audience buys in and they're committed, right? Especially in the church. And so I think a lot of men started to feel like, man, like they know if they can, if they can cater to women in this way, that, you know, the women are the highest consumers of books. women are the highest consumers of a lot of like even our poetry event our tour it was what 65% 70% women right and so I think people I think some men have felt like because of that like you know a lot of times the church has catered more to women than they have to men and I think

in some ways that argument is is you know um there's true it's understandable right and I think get some truth to it. I think the reason why, you know, the whole red pill community and these men voices have been so popular is because it catered to hurt misunderstood men who felt like the culture and society

was stripping their voice away. Wow. Right? And they was able to disciple these dudes in a lot of toxic ways to be quite frank, but they still felt hurt. It reminds me of Hebrew-Israelism.

It's like, if I can appeal to the young black man in America, who who's frustrated every time a black body pops up on the internet, I can feed them our truth because it appeals to their emotion, even at the expense of truth. I think what's really intriguing about that perspective is that, hypothetically speaking, if the church is primarily catering to women,

it could be also because women have statistically been the church's primary audience. because statistically speaking, women usually make up more of the church membership than men do. That's true. But what's intriguing about it is that most men are the pastors. And so I guess my question would be what even is the reason that men aren't a part of churches? Because the nation of Islam doesn't have a problem getting men. But I just had a conversation last week with a man who's, he's the leader of his men's ministry. And he was like, men don't want to join.

They don't want to participate. They don't want to be active. He was at glory. And he was like, your women are so excited to be here. I have to beg men to come to Bible study because they feel like if I just came to church with my wife, that's enough. And so maybe women are being catered to because women are more thirsty. Is that wrong?

I have a lot of thoughts. I want to hear it. I want to say something about it before you jump in. I think the nature of women allows them to be attracted to the model of the church. and the way the church celebrates and idealizes the person on the stage and the person on the mic. I think in that type of scenario, we need to pay attention. Right. Pay attention to scriptures.

It says there are parts of the body that require the type of attention that the scene parts don't require. And I think we miss that to recognize that men are drawn to places where they feel valued or another word for that where they feel needed. If I go into a space and everybody celebrates the pastor, they listen to the pastor, I come in and I can disappear, I can die and nobody would know. And so I'm not needed here. In fact, the reverence and respect only goes to one place. I think if we as a church, as a people, men and women begin to recognize that it truly is a body

and pay attention to the giftings. when a man comes into that place, how can he serve this community? How can he serve? How can he be recognized as an individual that is coming to contribute, value into this place, even if he never steps on a mic,

even if he's never seen? Could the church incubate and create forums where that men could be used and recognize? See, scripture talks about recognition in the sense that there is a special attention. There's a particular type of of care or attention or reverence

that goes to the part that is less seen and I think we got that wrong in the church that's it repels men trust me let me just let me just say this so I agree exactly what Ezekiel said but I also think that we may underestimate how much men

want community right because a lot of times a woman can go in a church body and be excited about the worship to be excited about you know the past, the preaching. And there's an excitement. And I don't want to make it seem like women are just like emotional, right? Because I think a lot of women in the church love the Lord and love the body, right?

But I think men want connection. More men want discipleship and community than we think. But I think our churches, we don't cultivate those type of environments, right? And so, for example, the same guy that I talk. I talked about that came up to me after my show in D.C., he said they started going to a church, and he was like, his wife still loves the church. But he doesn't want to go to a church. Why?

Because no man in the church want to disciple him, right? So it's not like he doesn't want to go to the church. He wants to learn, right? And so the way God has wired men, God has wired us to be leaders. God has wired us to think in a certain way. And so if we're coming into an environment and the church is not equipping us to learn how to be men inside of our home, what is the need for it. We don't care about worship.

We want to learn how to be men. Would you say that when men come into bodies, and these are all, I don't want to generalize because I'm sure there are local bodies and local communities that are doing this very well. But I think, would you say that the men that get attention are the men who are gifted communicators usually? Yes.

Okay. Yeah, for sure. The men that, yeah. I had that in my brain, so I'm glad you said that said. More flesh. Yeah, gift of communicators are those. who are celebrated in church atmosphere as well, singers, the worship leader. That's true.

And the pastor. The pastor. Yeah. Communicators. Yeah. That's it. You know, and in some cultures, the armor bears are like, you know, second in command or whatever.

But then men are just there. It says, like, how can we pay attention to the needs of these men? And also, you know, how can we come alongside them and disciple them? And women, how can we incur, like, I don't want to just leave it up to men to disciple man, but also leave it up to the women to not flirt with the first guy that you feel is cute when he comes into church, but to just speak life into that man. Let him know, like, you're valued in this community. You're needed in this community.

Not to stroke his ego, but to encourage him, right? Because a woman's voice is very powerful. Well, maybe what a woman could actively do is be a bridge to connect that man with other worthwhile men. And so instead of you being the primary source of encouragement, that's cool. But he needs a brother. He needs a father in the faith. And so it's like me actively saying, hey, I've seen you here for a week. Like, you want me to connect you with my friend or my husband or whatever, whatever.

But I think that becomes hard when you don't even have a church body where that's a cultural ideal. That's the problem. I'm going to, let's just be honest, in this, we're in America. We are chasing the dream, chasing the hustle. Most people simply, it's not in our nature to see a man that comes in and says, I'm about to take this brother under my wing and I'm going to encourage him and I'm going to consult with him and he could call. Look, take my number, call me anytime. We're not doing it, bro. Let's just be honest. I think the problem is not that the- He said, call me any. And here's the truth about it. At least that man can identify the lack in his need. Yeah. Most men don't desire discipleship because they don't know that that's what they need. They're feeling and they're trying to fix and medicate, self-medicate with their vices. And so the dude that's out there smashing these women needs discipleship but does not know he needs it. Come on here.

And so how do you deal with that? Well, there have to be men that are actively pursuing these men. And I truly believe it falls on those who know. It falls on those who are equipped. And this is why, you know, I started this whole Band of Brothers thing. The whole idea behind it was I started off me trying to do relationship stuff and trying to match women with men. And I realized it was collapsing.

Why? Because it starts with men knowing who they are. Before I don't even want to connect a woman with a man that doesn't know who he is. So I was like, okay, my focus needs to shift on these men. But to develop these men so that they can chase after men. And at this state that we're in, it ain't even one-on-one anymore. them. If you have some type of clarity and you're learning and you're being disciples, you need about 10. You need about 10 young men that you're pouring into. That's,

that's where we're always. That desperate. I just told my wife last week that the Lord had been telling me to disciple this particular young man that's in our life, you know him or whatever. And I was avoiding it because I was like, I just don't want to, I just don't want to disciple nobody right now, nobody else. You know, I'm on the phone with such and such dealing with his problems. You know what I mean? Yada yada yada. But I just felt like the Lord was like, no, like, tell, ask this dude, do you want to,

do you want me to disciple him or whatever? And I did, and he just got emotional. And it also just made me feel bad that I didn't act sooner. I was like, I should have been Axis dude. But dudes want to be disciple. And I think that if we develop a coach, I know I talk about discipleship a lot because I think that God wants the church to grow a coach.

of discipleship, I think if we develop it, we'll see a lot more men in the church. We would, you know what I'm saying? And so I think we just need more discipleship. What has the nation of Islam, Hebrew-Israelism, and what is it, Red Pill community? Is that what it's called?

Yeah. What are they doing right that the church isn't? Yeah. So the nation of Islam, their whole goal, I mean, like, the nation of Islam looks completely different than the American church. When you go in the nation of Islam community, the men are at center. And the women are kind of in the background in a lot of ways.

And so, like, in a church, it's the pastor, and then it's like all of these women, you know. And so, like, they just do a really good job of instilling dignity, worth. they feel like they're necessary for their community. You met the nation of Islam, people that I've been building with by a house on the way from church. And this man is 23. He's by a house. He's out there every single day, you know, selling bean pies,

passing out fruit. And every single time I'm about the Walgreens, I'm talking to this cat. And every single time I talk to him, he talks to me about the state of the black man in America and how the nation of Islam is the only thing in the world that has given the black man a voice. That's what he believes.

He believes that the nation of Islam has given the black man a voice to be leaders in their home, leaders in their community, right? And in a lot of ways, let's not cap. They are. They are leaders. And they lead well.

They lead well in the sense of serving their community, right? And so when I'm over there by Walgreens, I mean, the lady that he's helping to her car every single day looks at him as a leader. Got it. Right? Yeah. Right. Looks at him as a pillar in this community.

The whole time they're giving somebody a false Jesus. Right? They up there with signs saying that Minister Farrakhan is the new Messiah. Yeah. Right? And so I think that's the problem when the Christian church do not do a good job of building up leaders. We make other religions look like they're true. by the way they build up men.

Wow. And so I just think that it's, it's an attack of the enemy. It's really strategic. And to the church's defense, it is real easy to build up, quote-unquote, leaders when you serve a false God.

I don't think the spiritual opposition is nearly as much, right? They don't have that spiritual warfare aspect. So, but we have real demons like, oh, they have the real gospel. We're going to go out there. That's how they sound, bro. Right.

Yeah. We're going, we're going, go out to their man, right? And so I don't want to booboo on the church in that aspect. But I do want to point out the fact that, man, we need to pay attention to how Minister Farrakhan is on a breakfast club.

Low-key, like being a voice for the hip hop generation because he connects with these rappers in a way that a Christian pastor doesn't. It's a form of discipleship that if we just learn

how to tap into in the Christian church. Christian church can be really powerful if we focus on building up men in a particular way. And it can't be a subset. Like it literally has to be our focus to call back men because with the breakdown of men, you have the breakdown of the marriage and you have the breakdown of the family. You have the breakdown of the community. And thus the breakdown of the church. And so we want to see the church thrive and we're fighting to feed the leaves without addressing this root cause.

And I think this, like you said, it's a spiritual thing for sure. The enemy has historically, biblically attacked the boy in scripture. And for what reason? Because we know that God has called that man to be a leader, to be a pillar, to be a backbone in the community and in the church. So I think it should be a 911. Like we all need to put our hands like, women can't sit back and say, yeah, get these men together. Nah, it's like we all need to be praying. Yeah.

We all need to be rallying. And we all need to be celebrating these efforts, making noise about these efforts and creating culture around discipling men. It's important. And then this is the reason why I'm excited about this tour. And this is not to plug the tour, but if it does plug it, great. But the reason why I'm excited about this tour is because I think men, we are going to address some toxic things in the culture concerning men. I don't want to act like we're not. But it's not going to be a place where men or women are torn down at all.

Amen. But I do think men need to stop hearing how much they suck, right? And I think they need to know that, man, some of the ideologies and some of the things that you adopt from the culture is problematic. But, man, here is how the Lord wants to shift you. and I feel like if we can point them to a body in a community that can raise them up, I really think that we'll see a lot of men be encouraged. Because I don't think what men need is only correction.

I think that they need to be corrected but also build up in the faith. And I think that this tour would do that when we point out, because I think a lot of times we see the issues, but we don't see the root manifestation of these issues. And so the root manifestation is that not these men are trashed. These men don't want to commit. These men are bogus. These men are this.

It's no, it's deep hurt. It's deep wound in this. It's deep deception. It's deep, you know, all of these issues that I feel like we never get to the root cause. And so, you know, men just hear how much they suck, suck, suck. Because people are only focused on the manifestation of a lot of the foolishness that they're putting out there. And them not going to church, but they're not getting to the nitty gritty. Like, why do you feel rejected?

Why don't you feel hurt? And so I feel like this tour is going to do a good. good job of getting to that and how can we build them up and how can we have the church come along side being to make them feel like they're wanting in the community that's good so so Kevin samuels uh when he when he popped out I feel like he kind of and I could be wrong but it feels like he opened the door for a lot of podcasts a lot of content that feels hypermasculine and by I mean hypermasculine I mean inordinately um unbiblical kind of this this establishing of

leadership in a way that feels like you're superior or dominant in a way that doesn't look like Jesus. And I can, I think listen to y'all, I can see how that is appealing. Because it's a way to reestablish dignity

and leadership that may not actually include gentleness and humility. Right? So I guess my question would be, can y'all define for us what masculine leadership actually is? so that people have a vision for it, which also corrects even wrong visions

or understandings of leadership that aren't right. Does that make sense when I'm trying to ask? Yeah. You explain that really well. I don't. You just don't want to answer the question. One. Like, what are they supposed to be looking for?

Because if they got all these options and these alternatives, like some men might think that's authentic leadership for you to be in control of everything that your wife does and for her to not have any say about what she wear, or where she goes. Like, that's actually abusive. Yeah, one, one, I want to just say this. I'm not saying that, okay.

So I'm not saying, before I answer that, what, like, biblical masculinity looks like. I want to just address the Kevin Samuel's thing. And before I say this, I don't want to, I don't want to make it seem like that if you're not married and leading a home that you cannot give certain advice, right? That you cannot point to men in any, in any aspect, right? But when we look in scriptures, one of the qualifications of being a leader in the church, right,

a voice in the community, right, an elder, right? It's being able to lead your home well, means wife, children. And then that's how we know that you have the right qualifications to be a voice in your local community, your church, an elder, right? And I think a lot of times when we hear men, don't listen to what a man says, listen to what a man says. listen to what a man models. And Kevin Samuels wasn't even married, first of all, right? So he wasn't even, like, he didn't even show us, even through social media, that he knew how to lead a family.

But he was, he was pouring all of his marriage advice, right? I think, I don't know the man personally, but it seemed like out of his woundedness. And so a lot of wounded man flocked, I believe, to Kevin Samuels because he catered to their woundedness, which was automatically problematic, right? Which he probably said some true things, right? And people, oh, well, that was true. False theology is always going to be sprinkled with a little bit of truth.

But I think the main person to look at is Jesus. And Jesus wasn't married, but he was the son of God. So he was, right? Yeah. And so he was married to us, his church. And I think what Jesus did, Jesus came and modeled Christ-like sacrificial love. that was both the gentle and fern when he needed to be, right? And so he was kind, especially when he treated the way he treated women.

And so when Ephesian 5 tells us to husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, I say this all the time, Christ loved the church before the church loved him. And he modeled Christ-like sacrificial love even when the church rejected him. And so I think what what Christ-like masculinity looks like is it is it is both lion and lamb. It is both firmness and gentleness. And so it is not it is not one extreme over the other. It is not being overly, you know, emotional.

And it is not being overly domineering. Not being domineering at all. It is like how can I lead my home? How can I be a leader in my country? community by, one, leading by example, by loving people in a gentle and a kind way and allowing my voice to be heard in gentle and respectful ways. And so I think a lot of times in the culture, is he the one side of the extreme? You have to be extremely passive to be accepted by some, or you have to be extremely domineering to feel like you've got to be accepted by women.

You should teach. But I think Jesus came and balanced and showed us this, this, this, this, this, this, this beautiful balance of correcting the Pharisees, being firm with truth, being bold, and how he proclaimed his father. But at the same time, crying when Lazarus, like, weeping when Lazarus died, right? Showing this vulnerability in this openness, right? And so I think he balanced both of them. And so I think when we look at Jesus, we see that God wants us to be both this lion and lamb

in a beautiful way. And I think one of the things, that was beautiful, man. That was excellent. One of the things that has risen in this whole red peel understanding is finding women that are easier to manipulate,

to control. A lot of men are being pushed. They call them passport bros, if you guys know, I'm introducing all types of stuff. It's saying, hey, women in America are difficult. Go ahead, go across the seas,

and find a woman. women that will cook, clean, and will never talk back, that will allow you to get other women because they understand and having multiple wives is part of routine. You've never heard of that, right? Yeah, I've heard of that. You ever heard of, I think I told you about that. Yeah. So men want like maids, not partners?

Is that what I'm hearing? Beyond that extreme, let's just scale it back. I was triggered. I'll put it like that. Yes, they do. Okay. But let's scale it all the way back to. to men that have been broken, period,

want to deal with the type of broken women that don't challenge their own brokenness, that don't mirror their own brokenness in a way that challenges them, but rather caters to their broken in a way that makes them feel superior or allows them to avoid or escape what they need to do to step up as a leader.

And so, I mean, we've heard it all before. I mean, can we go there on this podcast? Yeah, I know what she's going to say. Go, go there. So there have been a lot of men that say, you know what, I'm not even going to deal with black women. They got attitudes. They talk back, blah, blah, blah.

Or American women or in general, Africans. I was told when I married my wife when I first got with her, there was one of the ladies in the church saying, you let your daughter, oh, no, you let your son, I'm sorry, you let your son marry an American woman. How can you do that? She would divorce him. Because there's this understanding that, hey, look,

American women are difficult. They run to divorce and all this stuff. And so while there may be some truth to some of the things that they're saying. The idea is that connect yourself with the type of woman that provides the least resistance as possible. That would be the most acquiescent to your issues, to abuse, like that will stick with you no matter what.

And historically, even African homes, I don't care what the dad did. Mama's staying with them. And so that's this idea, like go across the seas because you're not going to find a person that's going to stick it out in the marriage in America. So it's this idea like, I love that you said that, man. In scriptures, it tells us that Jesus Christ died for his church while we were yet sinners. So we're dealing with a problematic situation and Jesus leaned into the problematic situation. And that is the challenge for the leader, for the disciple. Hey, are we looking for the least resistant? Yeah. That makes us less like Jesus. So go ahead.

Yeah, yeah. I have a question with that, though. Because I wonder if someone could hear you say that and be like, oh, so you're telling me I'm supposed to just go after difficult women then? Right? So what is the wisdom? Like practically speaking, if he's supposed to reorient

even his pursuit of a woman or have a type, what is he supposed to do if not to go after women that? You get him what I'm saying? Yeah, well, what I'm saying, I think, great question.

I think don't hinder who God really has out there, has has has what am i trying to say don't hinder or stop the the person that god really wants you to be with because you're looking for something easy one because marriage is not easy right a lot of times we say we want to be sanctified we want to be made in the image we want to be conformed in the image of jesus christ and not really realizing that god is going to take the most intimate relationship to do so and so when you look for a yes woman what you're saying is i don't want to be like the son of God who came to love a difficult church.

That's exactly what you're saying. Because the church, we're a mess, right? But God is committed to us. And so if you want to go out there, and this is the reason why a lot of men end up marrying somebody who's a maid but not a friend. Bro. I'm going to throw some of your way and I want you to answer.

This is the reason why she's washing your clothes. She's doing everything that you want her to do. But you don't want to talk to her. She's easily. She easily irritates you because you don't even like her. That's what I want to get to. Thank you for going there. You don't even like her.

Bro, I've talked to several married men who told me that they don't like their wives. I asked them, well, are you at least friends with your wife? You're like, friends. I bet they do everything for them, though. They do everything for them, though. Can I say something? You make enough money to marry a maid. I mean, to hire a maid, I mean.

And then marry a friend, right? Wow. If that's what you want. And so what you really want is somebody to cater to your egos. Your brokenness. Your brokenness. Yeah. Because you didn't get that to Jesus.

Woo, go ahead. Go ahead. Go says. Can I say something? I have thought it a bit interesting that it does seem like some men enjoy men more than they enjoy women. But they marry women because they're supposed to. but their affections, their time, their energy, their vulnerability is giving space for men. So that's a thing? There's multiple answers to that.

Like you like hanging with your buds. Well, some of them might be struggling. And I'm not saying they're gay. I'm not saying they're gay. Some of them might be. Yes, for sure. But I want to, you want to talk with that first? There are multiple things that are going on there.

But I think a lot of times people are, don't understand that marrying a friend. is important. It's really important to marry someone who can walk with you. Marriage is a journey. If you can only tolerate her in bed, if you can only tolerate her to look at her in photos

or to touch her physically, you're going to have a hard time dealing with something because you're not going to feel romantic all the time and I don't care how high your sex drive is. You're not having sex 24-7. You've got to pay bills with this person. You've got to raise kids with this person.

You've got to have conversations with this person. You've got to walk with God. in and out of the ups and downs of faith with this person, if you can't tolerate them to sit down with them, look them in the eye and say, homie, can we just talk as friends? Let's put, you know, I'm going to lay our rings down real quick and just,

I need to talk to a friend right now. If I cannot find that in my home, that's a very tragic situation. That's really good. But can I also say this? Man, I'm so much that I want to say right now, but I'm a reel-in in. I want to say this too.

Like, I think I think people don't understand how like men are emotional creatures too. For sure. We're very emotional creatures, right? And what happens is when society tells us that we have to look for a yes woman to marry,

that's not a friend that we can express ourselves to. Right? And so we look for that in male groups. And like, and so we can, it doesn't look. look overly emotional, but it is. Right. It's like, let me go and vent

because I can't do it at home. And so this is the reason why I love that I have friends who knows I love y'all, but y'all don't come before Jackie. Wow. Y'all just don't. And I know he doesn't come.

Like, if me and him have plans and then Kianna call, I won't even get mad. Like, I know dudes, listen. I know dudes who get mad at each other when they go do things with their wives. I'm like, That's not the most... What?

Yes. Nah. Bro, I know. Like, bro, man, you always... But it's never like, it's never like overly, you know. Well, that's kind of even the thing where they'll say, like, you soft because you talk about your wife or you like... Or you, yeah.

They mask it as, oh, you always talking about your wife. Or you always cake and oh, bro, you don't want to hang with the boys. It's like, no, like, we don't even do that with one another. No. If we got plans and you come to me and me like, Kiana want to do... I mean, I understand. Yeah. Because I know that's your...

best friend. That's my homie. That's his wife. But it's more than just wife, though. Ah, yeah. It's their friends. His companion, yeah. Everybody knows you're my friend. And so, like, I'd rather be with Jackie than any of y'all negroes.

Wow. I thought you were just going to say the other one. I was. I would have said it if he wasn't doing a podcast. Right? Isn't that and two become one? My friend, LB is the same way. Yeah. You're the same way. I'm the same way. I don't, you know what I'm And so I think that like people don't under, I know we beat the dead horse here. People don't understand the significance of marrying somebody that you like. And when you marry somebody who's just only going to do things for you, it just messes up

everything. Wow. And what is intimacy beyond just, there is the physical component, which is extremely important and we don't want to dismiss that. But it's also a meeting of the minds. If we can't connect emotionally and mentally, I think when we talk, we look at scripture and we limit it. Oh, and two become one. We got rings on and we have sex.

Right. It's like, nah. So you think that's what got... That's it. Well, then... Well, holistic beings. It wasn't just talking about sex. Look at, look at scripture. Jesus said, even when he was washing their feet, one of the most intimate things you could do, he was like, now you can call me friend. And what was he mirror? What is he mirroring the very, this is the manifestation of the foreshadow of marriage? I'm teaching you that this is what, this is the goal. friendship in this intimacy

between the groom and his bride friendship is the goal man. And so when Jesus called them to friendship, it was the elevation. It's one-ness because most people think men, a lot of men look at women

as like an asset to meet their goals, their personal goals, to reach their what they want to do. And it's like, no, like the goal is actually what you said. It is close intimacy, right? It is what Adam saw when he first saw Eve. The first human words recorded in the Bible was a poem.

This at last is bone of my bone, flesh in my flesh. You should be called woman because she was taken out of a man. Like he saw somebody that he can love, not somebody who he can like become successful. But somebody might argue, but she's my helper, though. She is a help. Well, she is a helper because the ultimate goal is to glorify God, right? And so we were put together to glorify God and to give his name glory. And so she was created to help him, to help humanity do that.

You know, humanity wasn't complete until she came, right? Relationships have never been one-dimensional from the beginning of time. So I just want to, that would be the argument to that. But what I was going to say is we help, like we glorify God the most when we are close, when we are connected, when we are one, when we are friends. Like when our relationships mirrors Christ's relationship with his church and mirrors Christ's relationship with his father, they like and love one another.

And so if we don't like and love one another, how can we glorify God who is communal, who always love one another for all of eternity? And so like, yeah. That's good. I like that. I really like that. I like that.

Okay. You got any more questions? Oh, I have a lot, but we running over. I will, I'll ask this, what is your advice to men or your thoughts? I'll say, your thoughts for men who feel sexually unsatisfied and are starting to consider alternative ways to get that need met. Father. So, that was the first thing I was going to touch on, but we went in another direction. Just my concern for men is lust, but you can go first.

It's a lot to be said in this particular area. And we got to be, so I just want everyone to know all listeners. We're speaking from the men's perspective. And so I think far too often because there are two perspectives to consider, to attempt to try to accommodate the other perspective, we minimize the necessary perspective of a man when it comes to sex. And we're talking about needs. There was an argument that went forth,

a woman who was a therapist or counselor said, men need sex. And it was a big uproar. Like, men need sex. Because to a certain extent, it's just like it's not a biological need. You can exist without it if you're a single man and God didn't call you to marriage, then you don't need sex. But I think what was being missed in that is in a loving relationship between a husband and a wife, I think far too often the physical intimacy dynamic that she,

should be reverence in that way is often diminished as this is an extracurricular activity that you like, but it's not that important. It's not that serious. And I think it's disconnected from the emotional side. I think sometimes a woman can say, okay, yeah, I know you want sex because you're just horny. And maybe sometimes. but in a loving relationship between a man and a wife,

that man's ultimate way of expressing that I have, my desire is for you and I want the most closeness with you is in that function of physical intimacy, of just being touched and feeling wanted in a marriage. And I think so many times that's, I don't know, it's not handled well in conversations. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When I think about this issue, I think about two things.

I got to think about what you just said, but I also think about just the idea of lust and how the enemy wants to destroy us by using lust. And I think what the enemy in our flesh, our flesh desires good things. I think what a man ultimately wants before marriage and in marriage is intimacy. Closeness, one is I think God created

us to want that. I think what the enemy does, he doesn't create anything, he just perverts emotions. He perverts desires. And so when I think about lust, I think the enemy has perverted our desires that were originally pure to make us to try to spiritually and emotionally kill us. Wow. I think men are attack with lust to become spiritually and emotionally dead, right? in the sense that

the way we think about sex and intimacy a lot of times it's perverted and it's not it's not natural right and so the culture teaches us that that women are objects

wow right and they are they are there are means in which we have to get an it scratched which is the reason why pornography is so demonic because it shows, you know, and it's also a prideful thing. I talked about this when we did the whole pornography thing. It's men who are been rejected,

going to watch something, watching men who are not getting rejected, men looking highly desirable by another woman. So it feeds a pride, it feeds, right? Which is a perverted version of what God desired from us. And so I think a lot of men come into marriage, and coming to the church with a very skew, perverted view of intimacy

because the enemy and our flesh has appealed so much to our lust. Wow. And so, one, we have to just rewire our minds of what the culture and what society has told us about ourselves, has told us about women, and has told us about how we get these desires, because they're not necessarily needs, their desires. Wow.

And desires are not evil the way we go about it can be, right? And so I think that men really need to be disciples in that way to say, man, what you've learned about a woman body and even what you've learned about your own body is wrong. Jeez. It's wrong. And I think oftentimes, just like you said, man, it's such a self, we have selfish motives. we come to the table of intimacy and we approach like consumers

we approach like carnivores ready to just you know to satisfy oneself but we don't come to the table to share and we don't care you know I always asked this question in my mind to God like why it just why does it seem like you pair

married couples unevenly like you give this man this high desire for sex and you give him a woman or it seems like women just naturally seem to desire sex but want it differently or want it at different levels. Like, why? And I think it has a lot to do with this journey and the way he's called us to approach like, well, if my wife desires to be catered to, to be loved, to have kindness poured on her, and that is our route, then I'm going to love herself sacrificeally and find ways to

love her in ways that we can share intimacy. And from my wife, she has to see that. And so when we come to the table, we're both coming to the table ready to feed each other, not ready to feast off each other in the sense that in the same way that we have to kind of be mindful that God created are women differently. And we're not going to, we cannot, like, why would we be okay consuming sex at her expense? Yeah. Is it sex really desirable? No, it's not. If she doesn't want it? Nope. Like, it was like Well, it shouldn't be It shouldn't be But if you have been so conditioned by the culture to say, man, this woman exists for me to get My physical needs met

And for me not to meet her at a place Where we both can enjoy each other Yeah You're okay with that Man, right? But if you're not okay with that, like your wife not enjoying it deeply affects you Someone said, I kind of slightly disagree

And I gave my opinion, they said women have been taught by society and the church, which I agree with, that sex is purity culture, you know, sex is bad and men need it and women don't need it. So what's been happening is women have had these high desires and they've been over time gradually suppressed because of doctrines and false ideas that have come about sex that make it feel wrong. So when they get to the place where it's time to express, they don't initiate and things like that. And so the conversation was about initiation.

And I was like, I agree with that. I feel like when I've seen it happen many times when people have had these ideas about sex, they come to the table and they're just like, well, if it's wrong, then I'm not going to know how to initiate because I've been told it's wrong. But I also feel like the other side of that, which I think is more important is we're all of us, men, as I said very loud, every man wants his wife to initiate sex often. However, I think that to have that expectation is to expect a wife. to approach sex like a man does.

And so we're expecting her to be assertive and lead in this particular area and no other area to assertively lead an area that they've really been called or more natural, they're natural responders. Yeah, yeah. They respond in love. They respond in kinds. And it's like, why don't you just, why don't you, you know, jump to sex? Why don't you just throw it on me?

Well, you're trying to tell your wife to be a man. However, while it is important and while it's good, I think we have to train each other in a sense for each other. Basically, how are you serving her to not get what you want, but to meet her at a place, right? To meet her at a place. And so now it's not, hey, I just want you to initiate, but I want you to learn me while I learn you.

I want to serve you as you serve. Let me say this too, because I... She had her hand her for a long time. He doesn't care. I didn't see you, babe. Let me just say this real quick, and I'm going to pass it to you. Because one, I talked about how, I talked about how, like, men, like, lust is making us, the enemy is trying to use lust to spiritually and emotionally kill us.

I truly believe that. But I think my encouragement to women would be don't treat us how the culture has defined us. If a man comes to you and you feel, and you're turned off. because you feel like he's emotionally not there or he's spiritually not where you want him to be. Treat him like what God says he is. And I think a lot of times in our culture, men are not, men can be built up by women in ways.

I really don't think that they can. I think that women come all the time with their frustrations and their complaints instead of, let me be a woman of God in a way that will come to a man and treat him how God says he is. And I think, you know, me and Ezekiel was talking the other day, and we were talking about how, like, sometimes when people see our relationships online, people say goals.

Yeah. And people say this and people say that. And it's just like, no, like, we wasn't always the man we were. But we are very much a product of a good woman who helped us get to a place, right? And so what a good woman does is if you love him well in some ways and don't meet him with frustration and encourage him, not by his actions all the time. But treat him like you know like he's the man that God called him to be. I think a lot of men will see a lot of their problematic issues and he can grow.

Right. And so I think, yeah, don't, that's because a man acts emotionally dead. Don't treat him emotionally dead. That's good. Yeah, I like that. What I was going to say is I was just going to confirm that Ezekiel's perspective is, valid. I was listening to a podcast the other day by a sex therapist and he was talking about how there are two different desires that people don't understand are at play in our sexual relationships,

which is that statistically more women usually have what's called receptive desire and more men have what's called initiative desire, which means that we all know this, but men are just ready to go. Yeah. All right. And so they are prone to initiate because they're ready. But a woman usually has initiative or a receptive desire, which means she's a neutral. And it's the man's job to bring her to go. Right. And so I think, I think that is interesting because it helps, one, the woman not to feel like something is wrong with her because she's not turned on as often as her husband. It's nothing wrong with you. It's just that he has to lead you to the place that he's at. And so I think that

puts couples in a position of interdependence, which I think is what God has called us to. Yeah, and I think it initiates pursuit, right? It initiates this picture of Christ of Christ pursuing his church. But I think, not to interrupt you, I'm sorry. But I think, like me and you were talking about, I think what burden that puts on

the woman and a good burden, Christ, you know, my yoke is easy, my burden is light, like Christian discipleship has burdens. But I think what burden it puts on the woman is you have to make a decision to respond to the leadership, right? And so I think there's a lot in the yes, right?

So if he's trying to bring me and guide me to go, if I'm always saying, no, I need to ask why, right? So is it that I need healing or is it that I need humility? And I think when you dig into both of those, then I think that helps us to work through sexual issues. Healing and humility can go a long way. Yeah. and we can start getting under these sheets.

Hey, come on now. But here's the thing. I was going to say something else, but... Hey, bro, can us... Because we've talked about this before. Because the devil want you in everybody's bed when you ain't married. He wants you out of the bed when you is married.

That's what they say. My wife has explained. And God wants us to get in them sheets. My wife has explained. Sex is like ice cream for her. She's like... She's at the same time. I love...

I enjoy ice cream. I actually love ice cream. But I can't live without. Yeah, I'm like Huh? Yeah. That makes no sense to me. That's literally what I say.

I say it's like cake. Like when I eat cake, I like cake. But I just don't. But it's also, but it's also. It's like water for you. No. It's also like it. It's sexy.

It's kind of like water in a little way. I need it. But, you know, you just say y'all don't need it. But what I'm saying is it's not just, it's not, because I'm being literal here.

But if cake was, in the house every single day, you will be tempted to eat it every single day if you liked it. I'm in this house every single day and you ain't tempted. That's funny. You know what I'm saying? To get out of them sheets every single day. I have receptive desire. You have receptive desire.

So there is emotional, something emotional there that we have to kind of like, you know. That's what I said. If you have receptive desire, then if you're trying to bring me to go, that means that the, the, my job, my burden, my duty is to respond to the leadership. And if my response is always no, there is something there that needs to be interrogated. That's all I'm saying. No, no, no. We've actually grown.

So I praise God. For sure, because I'm, you know. And I think this is a conversation that needs to be had because it is a two-fold conversation because you're talking about responding and reception. But if a man is, is, so there's responsibility. I want to put it like that. There is, like you said, Lightbird, there's responsibility. for the man to lead.

And the burden of the responsibilities on that man to lead if she is called to respond. And I think to emphasize, hey, if he's leading, I like what you said, if he's leading or if he's trying, I think that needs to be acknowledged

with patterns. I would say, hey, this is you leading and this is me responding. What frustrates men is, men are so logical and basic. It's like, man, I did this, I did this, I did this,

and I got these results. It's not working. That's a, you can't say no after, that's how we think. And because I think, I've I've had that feeling so much, especially when I was, when I was, when I first got married, and it's just like, no,

like, one, I, I didn't give you a, like, there's no remedy to make your wife do what you want to do because, one, she's nuanced. And a lot of times, God gives us nuanced women because he wants us to depend on him more. Yes. Right.

And so it wasn't until like I stopped looking at these, okay, step one, step two. I think Jackie can really like step three. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't a stop doing that and said, Lord, help me. Yeah. I don't understand this woman.

Would you help me? Because you created. You can help me. Yeah. Right? And so I think that God wants men to depend on him more than we depend on strategy. Patience and compromise in that area is necessary for men.

Because, you know, can I be honest? So before when I used to get rejected by my wife back in the day, she didn't understand that now is different. She didn't understand what the value of sex was to me. And I used to feel rejecting. I used to run to porn as a way to kind of self-medicate from that rejection. She didn't know I felt like I was true. I never cried to my wife until I finally admit it.

Like, I feel like you don't love me. I feel like you don't want me. And she was baffled at that idea. And I think, like, get into the place where things can be communicated on the man's part. And also on the woman's part, because if we know that men think like this, help him out by kind of sharing, hey, this is just one of those days and this is why it's one of those days. But also on the other side of that, this is going to be the most controversial thing that I say. And y'all can fight me on it. There may be days that just naturally you don't want to respond.

And I think on those days, call on grace for patience. Respond what? Respond if she doesn't want to. to you can't force her. You know what I'm saying? And you got to be able to understand. Like there are nights I go to sleep in heat. There are some nights I go to sleep in heat because maybe my wife says she got a head cold or she's

tired or she don't feel like it or, you know, she's on, you know, the time of the month, whatever the case may be. I have to learn how to build this understanding. I'm not being rejected. That's number one. I love her. She loves me and I'm compromised. I'm patient and I love her, period.

But then on the other side of that because I've been attacked for this or I've seen this attack. I've seen this attack before. If a woman doesn't feel like it or just doesn't want to in a particular day or instance, I think as much as we're calling on grace and we're fighting, you know, I think on the other side, there should be also a fight there that says, you know what, naturally and instinctively, I'd probably say no, but I love you. So I might do something. I might rub your back, I might try to do something to let you know that I see you. Like, I think

there should be kind of this. I had a friend a couple weeks ago that said, man, my wife don't even know, like, how much I would just appreciate a back rub when I came home. I came home and told you. I was like, yeah. He was just like, I would just like, she don't even know, like, a back rub but we like, man. Has he told her?

He told after I told him to. Okay. Tell her that. She doesn't even know. Why? You know? And, yeah, I think men are emotional creatures. I think the way we express it looks different. And I think that if people would treat us how God says we exist and not how the culture, I think a lot of men will feel the freedom to come out and bloom

and not want to stay in this cocoom. And I think some of it is you have to show us, you know, because you, I remember the first time you cried to me. I hated it. You hated it, but I needed to see it that you were a whole person, right? And so, or when we had conversations about, you know, if I did reject you, or not even reject you, if I rejected sex, because I would often say

I'm not rejecting you, I'm rejecting it. Because I was, it was weird. I was like, she don't want to have sex with me, but she wants to get into bed and put her foot on my back and talk to me. Like, get your foot off me! It's like, why we just can't go more? Put your legs together.

More? You like me? You love me. Can't understand it. But again, receptive desire. Because to me, you wanted to go to 15 when me, me touching you and being intimate while watching a movie would actually get me to 15, even if it's slower. And it would get me there. And they may take showers and with the women, you.

I'm not a pronoun. They'd be smelling good. And I'm like, why are you? Anyway, the whole point. They would non-scented soap. The whole point. is that you showing us

your humanity and explaining your complexities also allows us to respond to you as you are. And so if you only project strength, if you only project, you know, self-sufficiency, if you only project like I'm the Hulk, I'm going to treat you like that.

Wow. He ain't the Hulk. I'm going to give him some. What? What are you talking about? Anyway. I got to go pick up the kids. No, Ronisius. So, So any closing thoughts, anything that you want to say that you haven't said? I want to say that me and Ezekiel, we had like a live event the other day.

And a lot of people, well, not a lot of people, but some young men who are not married express the fact that they feel like I don't represent single men as well as I do marry. marry men or women even and they felt they express how they didn't feel heard about me and that's just so far from the truth if you're if you're a man who's heard this and didn't hear me speak up for men I really do have a heart for the for the brothers and I and I think um God is really shifting me to to even targeted men more in my ministry and I and I just want the man to know listening to this podcast one uh you don't have to run to the nation of Islam or Hebrew Israelism, like in the body of Christ, your voice is valued, you are important,

and you are necessary to not only the body of Christ, but to a gali woman, a family, like we, like society needs us. It just doesn't want us. It needs us. And so you're needed and you're necessary. And so, you know, that's all I want to say. I love that. And I think this is my heart to heart for the brothers, man. I think so many times we're misunderstood and we're, you know, we're labeled as men because we have beards and we're at the age of accountability. And sometimes we're gifted. We're wise and we have knowledge, some of us. But I think some people underestimate sometimes that the boy in us is unheeled, unspoken to, unseen. And I think oftentimes when you see grown men act out in their vices, you know, their players or, you know, they don't trust nobody or they're

violent and they're aggressive. Oftentimes we're seeing tantrums from the boy. Has never been seen that hasn't been heard, that had been rejected, that had been abandoned. And it's so, it's so, so easy to call those men out, to critique those men, to judge those men, to blame those men, when what should be happening is instead of looking at those leaves, speak to the root, speak to the boy, affirm the boy, see what God wants to do in the boy. And I think we're talking about the conversation of value, and this is what, that's the part of the man that wants to be disciple, the boy in him that wants to know what it's like to be a man of God. And how the same way Jesus called children to himself, the only ones that are going with him that are going to be translated into glory is not the preacher. It's not the poet, Preston Perry.

It's the boy. It's the son. Yeah. That's my baby. That's my son. And until we get to a place where we're willing to, even as married people or as sisters in the church or as pastors, if we can identify that boy, speak to speak healing towards that boy, speak growth, you know, rally around to support and strengthen and build up that boy, we are no better than the Kevin Samuels. We're no better than those that are speaking to, you know, that broken place that are exacerbating the wounds instead of tending to them.

And I think we have to see it like that. Otherwise, we're being grossly dismissive of what these men are really going through. They're not just men that, you know, want six figures and not just men that don't know how to deal with women. They are boys that have not found their way. Yeah. That need direction. Yeah, yeah. And if I can say one last thing, I know we're going over, like, a lot of.

lot of arguments and frustration happens through social media on certain pages. And I want to just address the godly women out there because I know a lot of women listen to this podcast. And I want to just encourage you guys to not meet men woundedness with your woundedness. Like meet them at a place of your out of your, out of your, you being healed by God. Because I think that we miss each other when we come into. when we approach a man of how all the men in our past have wounded, wounded us. And we don't really see the potential of that man because we're approaching his woundiness with ours.

And it's like if you don't look at man through the lens of that, like I think that we have to struggle both men and women to really see the opposite sex, how God defines us. And so I think when we do that, men and women relationship from a brother and a romantic standpoint, which is growing flourish. Amen. Amen.

You guys are great. One. Bye. With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing B. McBride. Editing by Xavier Fairley, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell,

artwork by Hop, and music by Swoop. If you'd like to support the Perrys, you can visit the link in the show notes. This is With the Perrys. Thank you for listening. Now go with God. Thank you.