With The Perrys - Mourning, Meekness, and Mercy: Part 2 with Matt Chandler

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

The second half of the Perrys’ conversation with Matt Chandler is a deeper discussion of the Beatitudes of Matthew 5. For example, the Bible says, “Blessed are those who mourn,” but what are we to mourn, and how do we mourn well? Matt explains that we mourn our own sin, and we grieve the broken world around us. Comfort is found in the hard work of mourning, and the consequence of not mourning is distance from Jesus. Beyond mourning, Matt and the Perrys also explore meekness, a thirst for righteousness, mercy, peacemaking, and persecution. Scripture References Matthew 5:3-10 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://shopify.com/perry — Sign up for your $1 per-month trial today! https://meetfabric.com/perry — Help protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. You could be offered coverage instantly with NO health exam required! https://fieldofgreens.com — Get 20% off with promo code PERRY - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in. Loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify Advertising. You're among fans. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

So there's people that cry all the time. Yeah, well, I think it's going to be multifaceted. The first thing you mourn, if you think about when you became a Christian, when you surrendered your life to Jesus, the first thing you mourn is your own sin. And that doesn't stop even as you continue on in. Like, I mean, I've had some significant. repentance and mourning over sin in the last several months, even in my own life. I'm 33, 34 years in the game. And so there's this one layer. I'm mourning my own sin. Then there's another layer where I'm mourning

the sinfulness and brokenness of this world where my heart is grieved. I look around and see the name of Christ mocked and belittled. I see indifference towards his glory. I see perversion in a heartbreaking level. And my heart is grieved. I am mourning the state of the world. And those two tend to dance together. I've got my own personal mourning, so I'm not outside of this thing. I am in some ways. Physitionally, I am. And then I see the state of the world and I'm grieved by it. I don't choose to harden my heart so that I'm not grieved by the evil and brokenness of the world. but I mourn and lament it, which is again,

we were just saying earlier, that most churches make no space for lament. It's always a pep rally, never a funeral. But Ecclesiastes says that it is better to go to the house of mourning than it is to the house of feasting. And that the wise will take that to heart. And so there needs to be space for us to mourn, not just our own sin,

not just the brokenness in our lives and in the lives of those we love who are around us. But there has to be a way for us to look at the world that we're in and maybe it would be smart to shrink the world you're in a little bit and mourn the perversity and brokenness of our world. How have you seen people mourn well? Well, are organizationally churches or individuals? Any story that the Lord...

Yeah, so one of the things we've tried to do at the village is we have this service called Encounter. That's like a prayer healing service. But every December, we change it to a lament service. We know that if you've lost loved ones, if it's a really difficulty, then you're feeling it in a unique way in December. And so it's a two-hour-long lament.

Yeah, not hype, not, you know, quieter song. slower cadence, sit in it, create space for weeping. So we'll do that every December. I think people who mourn well are people who are willing to actually enter into the sadness and not try to quiet the sadness, which is easy to do with Netflix or doom scrolling. There's a thousand ways. Alcohol drugs, you can numb it in a thousand ways.

but the mourners who get comforted, they lean into the morning. They lean into the heartbreak. And comfort's found there. Again, not bypass through. That kind of goes along with my next question. What would you say to the Christian who feels like, no, we should be happy.

We're Christians. I can see people be like, I've tuned in to learn how to be like Jesus. I did not know this be so sad. And the Christians just say, Jesus. Yeah. What would you tell? that Christian, what is the consequences of not mourning? Yeah, I think the consequences of not mourning is distance from Jesus.

Break that down. Got to break that down. I think that, and this is the way I start the book, Jesus doesn't want any distance from you. Nothing. It's the best offer you're ever going to get. He wants all of you, mind, body, and soul. That's what Jesus came for.

All of you. All of life for. all of life. You don't want no distance. You pretend or you put some layer on you that you've got to be happy, even when your heart is breaking. Well, what have you done? Well, you've created distance from him. You're pretending that he can't hold your sadness.

He can't hold your disorientation or disappointment. And so then, like, think of how foolish this is. And I want to speak to prophetically because, like, you are creating. creating distance from the comforter by pretending. Again, it's that USC cheerleader. It's you just lost the game and you feel like you got to jump up and you just lost. And she's in the air. Right?

It's like that nonsense is everywhere in church. It's an over-realized eschatology. Yeah, that's what it is. Oh, that day's coming. There's a day coming. Wow. But it ain't now. Yeah.

In this world, I will have trouble. How do I take heart? because he's overcome the world. Yeah. But if I'm like, there ain't no trouble in this world, Lord. Yeah. Then I'm creating distance from him. Yeah.

And it also, I think it also, that's really good. I think it also strengthens the relationship. I mean, how much a relationship becomes strengthened when we enter into our friend's suffering. Yeah. If I was sat all, like, all month and my friend just walking around and I was like, bro, you're not saying that I'm saying a little bit? It's like, bro, like, I've been crying and you just over there just eat chips, laughing. It's like. Or even to develop it out, even your time.

transparency about your sadness. Yeah. Then strengthens the relationship. You're describing intimacy, right? Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that what we're after? Intimacy with Jesus?

That's what we said. That's what we said. Into Christ's up. That's right. Yeah, yeah. That's good. That's really good. Wow.

Made me want to sit on that for a second. I can go farther, but I won't. Blessed. We can. I'll probably cry. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. Meekness. We all know meek was the,

well, I'll say this. the other probably last month, I just randomly, I've been trying to work through Exodus as best I can. And I don't think this is Exodus, actually, it might be numbers. I don't know. When Moses, when Miriam and Aaron came in his face about him being with the girl. And the Bible says, it just chooses to say that he's meek at that point.

And that was just so interesting to me because it's like, you got your siblings coming at you for who you decide to marry. And we're dealing with someone who has no problem killing people. So it's like his meekness is on the, because he does not pop back out. Like, he prays. And it said, like, the Lord saw it. Then it gives Miriam leprosy, all the stuff.

And so I think meekness is often assumed to be passive. Meekness is often assumed to be weak. But it really genuinely is a strength that only the Holy Spirit can produce. So let's talk about it. Well, and then there's only two people in the Bible called Meek, Moses and Jesus. And if you look at those brothers, I mean, Jesus will flip a table on you. Yes, he will. You know, he put together a whip and drive people out.

And that wouldn't know, I think when people think Temple Mount, they think like this basement we're in. Man, that thing was acres and acres. I mean, he drove out thousands of people that day. It was not some like little room he cleared. I mean, it was acres. And then Moses, I mean, you already brought up Moses. Only two guys.

I mean, challenged Pharaoh, you know, call the Levites. Who's on the Lord's side grab him. Go kill your brother. Me, me back here. We got to purge this thing. I mean, a man who had no trouble with violence is one of the two called meek in the Bible. So especially where it's put in the story, meekness is strength under control. It's that idea, maybe we just alluded to on Blessed of the Poor and Spirit, where I'm low, but I need to stand up and be who God's called me to be.

I'm low, but I need to walk in what God's given me, fulfill the call of God in my life. That's meekness. It's strength under control. The illustration I use to start the chapter is my daughter, my oldest daughter, got into horses and rodeoed. She barrel raced. And here's my, she's the smallest of the three Chandler babies.

I mean, tiny. But she'd get on the back of this 1,200-pound mammal and just make it do whatever. she wanted it to do, all because of this little piece of metal, three-inch piece of metal in the horse's mouth. It was bitted and therefore controlled. And so meekness is that. It's strength under control. It's a great analogy. And I don't need to, like, I know I'm a force of a personality. I know I am. That's not pride. That's not, I am a, I got something. You know yourself. I know me. And I can power up and get done almost anything I want. to get done.

But meekness is, am I really the smartest one to decide this? Meekness is, who else needs to weigh into this? Meekness is, I don't need to attack this brother that's attacking me. Meekness is, I can be quiet, even though I'm more than likely, smarter than beyond that, and this man's probably a fool. But I don't need to tell him he's a fool. That's meekness. It's a different kind of lowliness where low in spirit is lowliness before God.

Meekness is kind of more lowliness before man, but not doormat. Not dormant. Not spineless because you wouldn't be able to say that about Moses. You wouldn't be able to say that about Jesus. Strength under control. Yeah. So for the last, what, 10, 11 years we've been using Shopify as traveling artists who tour, but also being owners of a clothing brand called Boat Apparel, Shopify has made our life easy in so many ways.

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social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. So it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash Perry. Go to Shopify.com slash Perry. I'm going to say it one more time. That's Shopify.com slash Perry. I thought you got something to say. I have a lot to say because somebody gave me a word a couple of years ago that meekness. Meekness is your strength. Meekness is my strength. And I didn't know what they meant when they told me that. I was like, I still really don't know what they meant. Do you know? I was about to ask you. Do you know? I do think that God has given me a lot of boldness.

Yeah. I think God has given me a lot of strength to endure, a lot of things. I think I've meditated on how much I felt, which is the reason why I don't feel. So when people call me me, I don't see it. And I'm not even saying that to sound fake humble. I just don't see it. I just don't see it. You know what I said? And so it's just interesting the way you broke that down, especially the horse analogy. Yeah. Because I've ridden a horse and I've felt how powerful a horse is in this little thing in his mouth when I pulled back, it hurts. And so he has to stop. And so I think you even giving me that language kind of helps me understand the meekness that God kind of wants me to walk in.

And the meekness I have walked in and I didn't realize it. Yeah. If that makes sense. So I don't really have a question. I think I'm just processing. Yeah, no, I think that's good. It's a really good analogy because I think it helps the believer to see, no, God is giving you a lot, but if you don't know how to tame that,

you won't be effective in your community. You won't be effective in your marriages. You won't be effective in the relationships around you. If you have this strength of a bulldozer, but you're just knocking walls down, you know, instead of, you know, building something significant. It seems like meekness is, I'm sure there's many levels to this,

but like stewardship of yourself in a way. You know what I'm saying? Because what comes to my mind, you've probably seen it. It's this clip of like this dude and this other dude at a game. And the one dude is arguing. Have you seen that?

I don't know. Keep talking. I'm going to show it to you. He's talking crazy in this dude face. Like disrespectful. Oh, I have seen it. But he's like a fighter. Like a pit bull.

And dude smiles at him and walks away. And then you see this montage. of the dude that walks away is a boxer, meaning he could have knocked his head off. And I think meekness is like that. Like he was stewarding what he knew he could do. And restraining himself, one, because he got a lot on the line if he knocked this dude head off,

but also it's a mercy to the other person. And I think even when I think of my personality, there's a lot I could do, but I need to be mindful of myself and others to just serve the moment. That's really good. Even if it costs me what feels. It was like respect.

So would you say that? Because when the dude walked away, you know, somebody might say he's scared. But when he walked away, he had a smile on his face of confidence. Yeah, he just knows. I think, yeah, meekness, that's a great illustration. Meekness is confident in the context of the beatitudes, confident in the spirit in me and what he's called me to and how he designed me. Yeah.

So I am, that's that. Remember, stay low and stand up. Yeah. And so my poor and spirit is I'm beg it. I have nothing to bring here. And then in that posture, I'm grieving my own sin. I'm seeing the brokenness of the world. I'm being provoked by it.

And now I'm moving into meekness because I understand who I am. I'm low. I'm not the solution to the pain I see in me and the world. Right? I'm not. There's someone who is. It ain't me. Yeah.

And then now meekness is, I've got certain strengths. I've been built a certain way. I've been woven together in my mother's womb for the days that he had for me. Been uniquely placed, Acts 17, times and boundaries. So the men might seek him and find him, though he's not far from any of us. So I always tell people at TVC and anybody listen and, you know, I know the Lord probably wants to save somebody on your street because you're there. And somebody at your work might come to know him because that's where you work.

Max. Right? that men might seek him and find him, though he is not far from any of us. Well, he ain't far from any of us because you're there. And so now I'm getting a sense of who I am and what I am. And now I'm freed or restrained by the spirit in me in my engagements. That's good. I'm freed or restrained by the spirit.

And wisdom and sanctification is learning the prompting of the spirit to smile and not punch that guy's head off. That's great. Right? Not punch that. And then maybe there'll be a time the ghost's like, yeah, go ahead and knock that fool.

Go ahead and get it. Maybe that day comes. Why is it that inheritance of the earth is given to the meek? Well, the inheritance of the earth is the promise to all of those who ultimately become like Jesus, right? The earth is the Lord's

and the fullness they're in. And then what you see in the book of Revelation is that we reign and rule alongside of Christ in a physical, literal remade heaven and earth not in the clouds playing a harp

like the Tom and Jerry cartoon like literal physical bodies reigning and ruling in a new heaven and new earth I don't know why I just thought about even that question that Jackie just gave to you

because I love Philippians 2 5 let this mind mean you which was all you know about humility but then when it it relates to meekness right

we don't see no greater picture of meekness than Jesus on the cross, who had the power to literally call down angels. And they're mocking him, and he chooses not to use his power, but he dies. And they're thief on the cross. I think you just preached on this. You know, he said, today you'll be with me as paradise. You know what I mean?

And so I think that, like, man, he inherited it like the earth by being next to the most meek man, who ever like walked. No question. Remember he tells Peter, do you not know that I could call out to my father at any moment having my disposal 12 legions of angels. Yeah. You just see one show up.

That's some meekness for you. That's meekness. Like, look, this ain't, ain't nobody arresting me. I'm going. Yeah, that's good. Nobody's killing me. I'm going.

That's good. That's different. That's really good. There is a particular way in which this is a task for women in marriage, you know, to be meek and to be gentle and to be quiet.

and how I think it can feel like you're losing something to do that. You know what I'm saying? So I'm just, I'm just, I guess, encouraged by the idea of God. It's like, no, you're not losing. You're going to gain everything. Like you're not losing anything. Your pride, namely. And so I'm just encouraged by that.

That's good. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, but they shall be satisfied. I have this one on my mirror. Talk to us about it. What's interesting, I love this, about the way the game Jesus is playing here. Righteousness, he's not talking about legal standing there. He's talking about right relatedness.

And so blessed are those who hunger and thirst for right relatedness. Okay. Between, here's the way I argue in the book. Between us and God. Between us and us. Between us and others. And here's what I think is beautiful about that. I cannot know me outside of knowing him.

So I will never fully understand me. I will always be trying on new clothes, if you will, without an intimate relationship with the Lord. I cannot understand me completely without him. And so right relatedness with God helps me rightly understand myself, which now gives me all the opportunity in the world to be rightly related to others. But if I don't know who I am, then I need y'all to tell me who I am. And now we're not rightly related.

And now there's going to be all sorts of drama on that horizontal plane, all because I have no idea who I am, because I don't know who he is. And so really in this one, I love this one, because this is where, like reality starting to break in in a new way, where I am rightly related to God, I'm hungering. I've got all those same Psalms in my heart. I'm longing for him, like men and women in the Bible long for him. I'm longing for his presence. One thing I ask on all that I see, because I might dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord to seek him in his temple, right? That's the banner over my life. I'm hungry and thirsting. I'm like starving. I want

the feast of your presence. So I'm ordering my life around that. It's not just like to hunger and thirst is to be moved toward. So it's not just, oh man, I can't wait for church. It's no, no, no. I'm orienting my life around his presence. That's good. I'm hungering and thirsting for it.

Everything else isn't satisfying me. So I'm hungry and thirsty. And then that step now helps me understand me. and then when I understand me, now I got a shot of loving you freely. I don't need you to define me. I don't need you to let me know I'm good. I don't need your applause,

and I can hold your criticism. That's good. But if I don't know who I am, because I don't know who he is, well, now I'm fragile. Yeah. No matter how much strength I'm presenting, I'm fragile.

And so you could take from me, I might even pretend that you didn't. Yeah. And then just go cry myself to sleep, right? So to me, the hunger and thirst for right relatedness takes the pressure of people who think Jesus is talking about moral perfection here. I thought that's what it is. He ain't talking about moral perfection. That's why he got to study text.

Study the text is. It's right relatedness, not moral perfection. Wow. The righteous man is a free man. That's right. Yeah. So that's a dope perspective because it's more about freedom. It is more about freedom.

With Christ and others. And again, it just keeps going back like Jesus and the beatages. You're just like, hey, just come be with me and say yes when I ask. That's really good. Just come be with me and say yes when I ask. And here's your inheritance. Personally, growing up, I was never taught about life insurance and how important it is to protect your family when you're gone. A lot of people leave the earth and leave that family with a lot of debt, a lot of bills to pay.

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slash Perry. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company, not available in certain states, is subject to underwriting and health questions. Would you say that this connects at all to the psalm? I think you said your grandmother liked the psalm, where it's like no one on earth I desire besides you or something. I think it's Psalms 20. Who do I have in?

My heart and my flesh may fail, but God is my portion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you say it relates to that? Yeah, I think David's on to it. Yeah. Who do I have in heaven but thee? There is none on earth I desire. God, beside eat for my heart and my strength for fail,

but God, you ought to shut up in my heart and my world. So there's David living it out. Yeah. Hungering and thirsting for righteous. How long, oh Lord? Yeah. That's the same kind of prayer. Like I want to, like as the deer pants for water,

so my soul longs for you. I know we like to slap that on a coffee cup, but he's anguishing for the presence of God. Yeah. Didn't he? Yeah. I mean, he's just like, angsty, I need you. Yeah.

You're the thing. You're the thing. the thing I need. And I think to know that they shall be satisfied is really, I think that incentivizes some level of hope. Yeah, absolutely. It's like the Lord does hear me. The Lord will respond.

I'm not talking to the air. I'm not crying alone. I'm not fasting and doing all the things. And I won't get some reward primarily him. You know what I'm saying? And so I think to know. And the hunger, the hunger pulls you forward. Mm-hmm.

It pulls you forward. Yeah. It really does. That's both experiential and I think I could argue textually. Like throughout the Bible, like, I'm always drawn to angstiness. That's just my personnel. Like, the more angsty you are, the more I like you. Like, I don't need you to be funny.

I don't need you. I just, but if you're angsty, I need that. I like my music angsty. I like my people angsty. And I love the Bible's just filled with angsty men and women who want him and are longing for and are being pulled forward by that longing. It's like the hunger and thirst for right relatedness with him is the very thing creating right relatedness with him.

That's the thing. So you two, I'm an old head, man, I'm 51. You two wrote a song years ago, Bono lyrics, and I still haven't found what I'm looking for. If you go read the lyrics to that song, he's like, look, I've spoken the tongue of angels. You know, he lists all these things. that might look like Christian maturity to us.

But then he says, but I still haven't found what I'm looking for. And I think what he's getting at, maybe I'm just reading on to him, is this, there's only so much of them we're going to be able to hold in this container. I mean, one of my most consistent prayers

is as much of you as this can hold, I want it. And so sometimes pain is him expanding the capacity, to hold. Suffering is expanding the capacity to hold. But to me, not only will I be filled, but maybe I'm being filled even in the hunger. You know, I write about that some in that chapter where men, the hunger itself becomes kind of delightful. The eagerness to experience and becomes part of the pull. And so, again, I get geeked out about that one. How would you encourage those who are in seasons where they've fallen and are falling, and they aren't hungry anymore, but they want to be.

So here's what's great about the Lord. It's as simple as just saying that to the Lord. Now, if you're saying, I don't want to be, I'm falling and I'm not, then that's a whole different conversation. That's a rebuke. But a man, I've fallen, I've made a mess of my life. I'd love to be hungry again. I would love to be, I'm just always telling everybody,

man, you just take that straight to the Lord. He will delight in hearing that from you. And we watch the father scanning the horizon for the prodigal son. We see, I mean, over and over again in the scripture, the Lord moves towards. That's why I framed the book with Jesus doesn't want any distance from you. Yeah. And so if you think you've got to clean yourself up before you can come back,

you kind of miss the point. Yeah. He's the one that washes clean. You need the one that washes. You're always the passive recipient in the scriptures when something's getting washed. You ain't the washer. Hello. So, yeah.

That's good. Blessed are the merciful. I don't really like this. That's a hard one. I don't care for it either. I submit to it, but I'm being straight. I try to obey it, but it ain't always easy. I'm not a merciful person.

Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy. Talk to us. I don't know. You guys want to talk about this one? We skip it. I've been, I'm a. sponge right now. I've been soaking all of this in. I'm really excited to

hear you talk about this one. Mercy's hard, man. It's hard for us if you've got a justice bent in you. It is the one, I have, experientially, it is the one I have to trust the Lord the most with. Like you pick any of those other ones and I'm like, no, no, no, I've tasted and seen that he's good

in it. This is the one where I'm like, just waiting. Just waiting. But Jesus is the perfect example of it. So it makes sense that he's trying to make us more like him. Yeah. So we can, the one that's in my head right now is when Peter cuts off Malchus's ear. Right.

So he's there in the garden. Peter's angsty. He's my kind of guy. Yeah. And he likes conflict. And so ain't nobody arrest in his Jesus. He already told Jesus. Look, even if all these other guys bow out, I'm here.

I'm your guy. And he kind of tries to prove that there early on, cuts off Malchus's ear. And then Jesus, you know, we've already quoted it, gives a, put away your, he lives by the sword and dies by the court. Plus, I'm letting them, right? I could call out, my father gave me 12 legions of angels at just a head nod. We're good here. But then Jesus does something that's fascinating. Like he picks up Malchus's ear and he puts it back on.

Yeah. But here's the mercy in the moment. If you remember Leviticus law, Levitical law, if he doesn't put Malks' ear back on him, he's no longer with the priests. He can't serve in the temple if he's missing an ear. So this is a guy coming to arrest Jesus.

He is like, why does Peter, why is it that ear that he gets? In my imagination, Malcolm's grabbed a hold of the Lord. He ain't just some guy standing over. ear. Yeah. And Jesus heals this man. Like who's arresting him. Yeah, that's good. Because the Levitical law says he's missing that ear, he's out. And now who's going to take care of this,

man? What's his role now? Yeah. And so that moment to me always freaks me out a little bit. Wow. I don't think I got that in me. Yeah. What's crazy. Yeah, what's crazy is, oh, man, that's so good. I mean, because probably like, you said it makes you uncomfortable. About five months before I gave my life to the Lord, I wrote about this in my book, my friend got murdered and he died in my mom's arms. My aunt cried out to me and she told me to come live with her because she looked at me. She said, you look dead inside. And so I talked about this how like when I first moved into her house, she was a righteous woman. Every morning I would wake up with oil on my head.

And I'm like, why? Why is it all on my head every morning? And so, like, you got to understand. I didn't grow up in church. And so I didn't have any context. For why it's oil in your head? People putting oil on heads. And so I'm like, it's my head producing natural oil.

Like, I'm just like, just like, just, like, sitting on my forehead. Like, what's happening here? And about 5 o'clock in the morning one day, she was standing over me. And she was praying and she was crying over me. And she was like, watch. watch over them, Lord, draw them to yourself.

But one thing she said in the pray that stuck out to me. I didn't understand it, but it just spoke to me. She said, in your wrath, remember mercy, God. And I was like, in your wrath, remember mercy. Like, what does that mean? And I think, you know, as this man started disciplining me named Gary, I started to realize I deserved wrath. Yeah.

But God remembered mercy. And I think that's what we have. have to do as Christians. Like, we have to remember mercy for others. The same mercy that was given to us, we have to remember it to be merciful, right? And so, like, I thought that was powerful because, man, I didn't know that about the, I knew about the ear. I didn't know that the ear cutting off the ear.

Like, he thought about that, man. But wait, tell me why, to be merciful for me will push me into being poor in spirit. See how they start to dance? Yeah. Because it's like dance. They start to dance. It's like, but I got to get my lick back. Yes.

You know what I'm saying? But you're telling me to be merciful. And so now even I need you to comfort me more than vengeance can. That's right. I need you to work this out in my soul. You know what I'm saying? So I think even to be merciful often take some level of lament, grief, petition, help to be able to show up, like, and to be genuinely merciful.

That's what I mean. Like to really genuinely be merciful. And he does it. He does it. Yeah. I mean, we experienced that in marriage. Yeah. Okay.

I don't want an apostle Chandler here all day. Let's move. Blessed are the pure and heart. Now, we be like now, God, you know my heart is deceitful. Yeah. And that's really wicked. I don't know. Well, if you're praying that, then you're pure heart now, aren't you?

Oh, minister to me. Isn't that right? Yeah. I hope so. Isn't that right? The man who says he has no sin, right? It better be, right? Well, why?

Explain that, though. Well, I think pure of heart is just being honest about where your heart is. It's not, and this is where the make-believe, and again, I'm going to, I rail against it in the books, I rail against it a lot when I'm preaching. That kind of spirit sprinkle, blessed, how are you, brother, praise God, I'm amazing. That only works if it's actually true. Right? But to pretend, to pretend that you always get it, you always understand, you're always winning,

you're always that. I don't think that's not pure and heart. Yeah. Like to be confused, it's pure in heart. If you're saying to the Lord and maybe more broadly, I don't understand. Yeah. Now you're pure heart and pleases the Lord.

And that, again, this is another one of those. get super fired up about because I see so little of purity and heart. I see so much of kind of perfecting the look, perfecting the page, perfecting the channel, perfecting the external, I've got this, I'm killing it, I'm, and I just wonder how many people are missing out on the blessing of being pure and heart. I don't understand this. I don't like this. I really hope y'all are making time for annual checkups. you know, you might not be, but you should. Go to the doctor, man.

We don't want you to die. Yeah, don't die. We want you to go to the doctor. We want you to get your labs done, especially if you pushing 40. We want you to get your blood work, all the stuff. If you don't, the question is, what keeps you consistent? We got kids.

I personally want to stay healthy for them. So I don't always look forward to an annual checkup. But what I do do before the appointment actually matters when I get to the appointment. So before your next checkup, you should make one health change. that your doctor will actually notice. Make it field of greens. Doctors today, they look beyond your calendar age. They actually look at your biological age,

how healthy your cells are, how vital your organs are, all the things. And Field of Greens was designed with that in mind. Each fruit and vegetable is doctor selected to support all the things, to support your cells, your hearts, your lungs, your kidneys, and healthy weight. I personally use field of greens, and I think that it's super convenient. A lot of times I'm on a goal, and it's real easy just to go to fast food and grab some burger and french fries and fried chicken. And so it's really convenient just to pour some really healthy vegetables inside of a water bottle.

Field of Greens has been a huge blessing in my life. And it's helped my digestive system a whole lot. So yeah, I recommend it. So go into your next physical confident, one scoop, once a day, and you finish. Make Field of Greens your one smart change this year. You can check out the university study and get 20% off at fieldofgreens.com promo code Perry. That's fieldofgreens.com promo code Perry. It kind of reminds you of the conversation we had on our anniversary

because you've been working through a lot of sanctification, studying it or whatever, and living it. But Jackie was just talking about how a couple years ago it was a lot of prosperity gospel. But now it's a lot of self-righteousness in our culture and especially a lot of young Christians we see, you know, who are babes in Christ, walking around trying to act like they're giants,

you know, trying to walk around, acting like they all have it all figured out. And I think it's a danger in that. I think God. The Bible warns that there is. Yeah. Don't let them be a new believer. Yeah.

For the pride of man. Absolutely. And so it's a beauty to say, I don't know what I'm doing, God. I think God finds great delight in it. I think that's what you're saying. It's giving childlike faith. Yes. Right.

Yeah. To just kind of be like, hey, man, like, I'm here. Here's what's in my heart. Here's what's in my mind. Here's what's in my nature. I know enough about you. know that you can take it. Don't fully trust you.

Help me process that. Like, I think in recent years, I've had to change how I pray in the sense of having a perspective that I'm talking to God as Father and not just Lord. He is Lord, but Father helps me be more honest and be more, like, less neat, if that makes sense. That's the perfect way to talk about it. It's just like, I don't know what to do with this, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but I want to ask you, how does that, how does that, how does that, how does

does it look like and play out for you? As a leader, right? Because I think as a leader, I think people, they don't expect us to be perfect, but they do expect us to know more than them. Sure. And to have a sense of awareness that they don't have. Yeah, I think in the most purest heart of ways,

most of the time I do no more. Most of the time I am farther along. Most of the time I have endured through something similar. and I'll lean into the wisdom of those things. But pure of heart for me, the wrangle of it, the wrestle with it in particular, is maybe when the Lord starts pressing on things that historically I thought theological were true. And he's starting to move me. And that feels real scary to me. and then, you know, I know I've got, you know, I've got a sermon series out there, Lord,

that teaches something a little different than that. You know, then I'm having that conversation with the Lord. And so pure and heart with me oftentimes will be that, or it will be relationally. Like, I'll have some issues in a relationship, whether good friends or sometimes Lauren and I'll get sideways. She's a little bit behind me on the sanctification thing. Maybe one day.

maybe one day she'll catch up. She's in the room, so I'm being snarky. Yeah, she's in here. Blessed are you? Yeah. Blessed is she, yeah. When you mourn. But I think that's often where pure heart plays out for me as relationally or

theologically, if the Lord begins to move me a little bit. That's good. And then all of a sudden I'm a disoriented. So especially, like, to be maybe more vulnerable. I just had a real powerful encounter. with the Holy Spirit in 2017 that really shook me. I was never a cessationist, always on paper, a continuationist, but on paper. And then, man, 2017 hit and shook me.

And then now I knew I needed to lead different. I needed to operate different. But I built this whole system, this whole place that was used to me operating a different kind of way. Yeah. And just felt blown up. up in the best way and disoriented. You got to tell us what did that change of you leading different look like? Was it more dependence on the whole spirit?

More dependence, more emphasis on prayer. Like even now, the village is in the middle of a whole year of 24-7 prayer. We'll cross across the 5,000th hour while I'm here in Atlanta. So starting in October to this very moment, every hour of every day, 24-7, somebody at the village has been praying for a serious and significant move of God in our day. And so prayer rooms, a healing service where we could ask the Holy Spirit to heal people. And all of that with some significant pushback early on, less now. That's good.

And so that was a pure and heart moment for me. That was a, I need, I don't know how to do this. I feel like I know more in my head than I've experienced in my life. and I don't know what. I don't know what to do. That's good. And that wasn't just with the Lord. It was with a couple trusted people I had access to.

I wouldn't have called them friends at the time. Friends now. Yeah. And so just reached out and said, hey, man, I just got this going on. I don't know what to do. I don't know even how to navigate it. It feels strange to me.

I think it's obviously the Lord for the fruit it's producing. Man, I don't know. I literally don't know what to do. Wow. And like the Lord tell me, just create space and say yes. That's good. What comes to my mind is the patience that that takes and requires because I've been thinking through how I think our addiction to productivity

is actually influencing the way we understand sanctification. Sure. Where we kind of want to change overnight, you know what I'm saying? And so like even what you're talking about, that was a process. Lord has done to work. He's leading you in a certain kind of way, but it still took time to work that out. I guess how have you even pastored or shepherded people through hard seasons or through difficult marriages or through epiphanies where it's like, yeah, I want you to move here and plant this church. It's like, I don't want to do that. Out of a purity of heart, but still a fear of what that means. Well, I think you've mentioned some of the ways that you do that. One is I want to be slow, not fast. I want to take time to discern.

I want to do what the Bible tells me, which was get some wisdom in here and not just me. And then I want us to listen and try to hear from the Lord together. It's good. And see if what I'm hearing resonates with you or what you're hearing resonates with me, and then let's test it. And then let's go with the great, my favorite prayer, which is, we think this is you. So protect us from foolishness. We really did seek your face. We set aside time.

We saw you. So we're trusting. We're heading the way you want us to head. I'd have prayed that to govertise. It's like, I think this is. I've been praying at like all month. Lord, I don't, I've been telling her, I feel like I feel like the Lord has been speaking to me about the things.

Like, Lord, if this is you, let this happen. It ain't. Yeah. Don't let it happen. You know what I've been doing it. It'd be some laying out the fleece energy. Okay. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called.

sons of God. Is this different than being merciful? Yes, because it's peacemaking. It's not peacekeeping. It's a harder chapter, man. It was probably the hardest one to write. What is the difference between keeping peace and making peace? Well, you can keep peace by staying out of it.

You can keep peace by never saying what's in your heart. You can keep peace by not telling someone the truth when they're believing a lie. I think peacekeeping is super easy. Just don't get emotionally invested. Don't care about the person. Don't love truth. Don't fear the enemy. Peacekeeping.

Yeah. It's really avoiding conflict. Yeah. Certainly that's part of it. Yeah. But it's not, it won't give you everlasting peace. Yeah, or work. Both are true.

Yeah. Both are true. It won't give you everlasting peace. That's right. That's good. Peace making is. is a love for the person that's willing to risk the relationship for fear of their harm or desire for their good.

Wow. And so peace making is me asking you to come to dinner with me because I'm concerned. Maybe some things I've seen you saying or ways that I've seen you treating Jackie or the kids. And that's a risky conversation. It's a risky conversation. might create distance between us.

And I love you, and I'm only doing it because I love you. And so it's a harder one to do. Nobody, very few people disciple you in this. Yeah. And then you've got people out there that fancy themselves profits. They just tell the truth. There's no love there. There's pride in their own hearts.

But to genuinely care for people is to enter the mess in the hopes that you're bringing order to the chaos or light to the darkness. That's good. And there's always risk in it. Yeah. And I think people listening to us now, many of them will have stories

where they did risk it and it went bad. And now they're longing for maybe eventual restoration. And then there's probably a ton of people watching this that did that and saved their brother or sister from something horrific. Yeah. But we have to be willing. That's good.

For they shall be sons of God. I mean, if we're speaking of Christians, it's like, oh, I thought I already was. Yeah. Again, now you're talking more our experience, our lived experience as sons of God are going to be felt in a unique way when we enter into that fray. Interesting. When you're willing to, because think of how they're all starting to dance now. Like even to be willing to do that, there has to be a lowliness in you. because you're connected to this person.

That's good. You love them. That should be the motive. I mean, anytime you're looking at the Bible setting up how conflict's done, it's born of love. And so you're low. You're hungering and thirst for righteousness,

right, relatedness with this person. You're trying to walk in meekness, which is probably the meekness of strength confronting, right? It's under control. role, you're not angry or thrashing, you're coming to love. You're stepping into a space that needs order brought to chaos, light brought to darkness. And I think when you're participating in those

things, you'll get a sense of the presence of God, your role as a child of God in a more pronounced way. I think when you, I experience this a lot as a leader when I'm drawn into a mess. I didn't start, I didn't ask for. You've got a peacemaking all the time. But I've got a, I've got a step into this thing for the good of the body and be strong, but not power up and crush, but to seek understanding, to try to bring clarity, to let the truth of God's word bear its weight rightly. The book needs to read this situation, not we read the book, right? It has the authority over this conflict, this situation, this disagreement, and we're going to submit to it, which is if you become a member of our church, like one of the first lines, the Bible is the final

arbiter on all these discussions, not the way we feel or think. Yeah, I think it was interesting to me is how the beatitudes are kind of trend. I don't know if they're transitioning, but it feels like, you know, poor and spirit, those who mourn, meek, hunger and thirst, and now it's becoming kind of relational. Yeah. You know, like it's working itself out into how we deal with each other. Yeah. Which is very much Ten Commandments energy. Bless it are those who are persecuted. I don't know what this feels like. For righteousness sake.

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Why did Jesus go here? Well, because it was coming for us. That's why. Like he's going to go on to, this is the only one he doubles up on. Yeah, he does. But he changes it, right? He's talking, there's a sweetness to this kind of back-to-back

beatitude because he changes the emphasis from your. all to you in the second one. And this is going to be part of it for us. If we, what does Peter say in First Peter? They just hate us because we won't do the things they do. So they're going to hate us. So persecuted for righteousness sake. So sometimes that's something we say.

Sometimes that's something we do. Sometimes that's something we won't do. And all of that might get you persecution. I don't think in the West, I think we're annoying, not necessarily persecuted. Right? I think we're just annoying to people who don't love the Lord. Like if we just get out of the way, they could get to their utopia.

Why are we like this? So like, ain't nobody I know getting beat or thrown in prison or, you know, killed for their faith right now. I think some people make arguments that this guy was or this guy was, but by and large, we're just annoying. But there's an acidity in the air. for love in Christ with your whole heart. In the book I write about Andy,

who's a good friend of mine at the church, he, and he found himself excluded. He was like C-suite level, big-timer in his company. And they partners took on a client and tried to hand him this portfolio with multiple porn sites on it. And he was like, won't do it. Yeah.

They're like, no, no, this is like what are our largest accounts. And he's like, okay, I won't. I literally won't do it. They couldn't fire him, so they just iced him out. Wow. Right? So he's just not invited to certain meetings. He's not invited to certain trips.

He's not, they just iced him out. And he's not going to do it because he's not going to work on, right? His own story is one. This is public, so I can share it. His own was he was caught in that stuff. Yeah. And, you know, nearly ruined his marriage. Yeah.

Then the Lord exposed him by the grace of God and healed his marriage. And so now he's not going to go back and give his talents. Hello. grow that. So he's like, no, I'm out. And then he's persecuted. Not arrested, not beaten, not killed, not even fired, but just iced out. And then eventually rolled out. And I put several other stories like that in the book. I think this can happen to you as a college kid who takes a stand on sexuality. I think it can happen to you really wherever. But the key to the passage is persecuted for righteousness sake. Yeah. Not not. Because you just want to talk crazy. That's right.

Right. Not because, yeah, not because you're crazy. Some people want to be persecuted. That's true. Well, some people all press is good press. You know what I'm saying? That's a lot of that. Yeah, there is a lot of that. But we won't go there.

Yeah, because I'll tell that. That's a different podcast when we don't release. I tell that to evangelist all the time. It's like, no, people didn't reject the truth. They just rejected the way you gave it to them. Yeah. You know, you gave it to them in a garbage bag and out on a platter. And it's like, now you want to say, you're just rejecting the gospel.

No, they're rejecting you because you're a jerk. Yeah. You know. And so I think it's a different. There is. One of the sanctifying agents, I think, that persecution produces is I do think it clarifies your mission. Because I think last year when just a lot was happening, it was like, I started to be like, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't want to preach the gospel.

I don't want to do the podcast. I don't want to write the book. I don't want to. And the Lord was like, oh, okay. Why not? You know, like, so you only wanted to do it when you were affirmed, when you were valued, when you received a certain kind of attention. And I didn't even know so much of myself was in the ministry. Hard to see.

And so it became the yes became a more committed yes because I knew what it cost me. And so I do think persecution has a way of sifting out selfish ambition in a way that I think is necessary if you're called to do gospel ministry. Yeah. Listen, I tell those young bucks all the time. I'm like, man, be careful what you're asking for. I don't think you know. Oh. I don't think you know, like you name me some, that's famous Christian, some blue check person who I know,

I'll just give you the suffering behind it, the sorrow behind it, the, like the, the Lord of Wounded Man he's going to use profoundly. Wounded lady, he's going to use prophetically. It's just, so I don't, a lot of people don't even know what they're asking when they're talking about platform. Yeah, because this is a different ballgame when you're about to be used. and now you're going into being used and you're counting the cause. Yeah. That's like, okay. It's like when I first started off in doing ministry,

I was excited to, you know, be on this stage, be on this stage. Just like, how will my marriage be attacked after this? It's coming. How will my kids. Opposition's real. And it develops your love because now I'm deciding to, this podcast is a choice, you know. It's a real choice.

It costs us a lot to help. people love God. You know what I'm saying? Like, so it's like, it's like because I love him, I am just compelled to love you in this way. And that's not to say I just show up all the time. Like, oh, my God. It's just, it's, it's just comes with a lot.

Well, Jackie, Meli Colleen and our openings, it be real. Oh, I am fighting for my life. You understand what I'm saying? But then towards like the middle, towards the end, it's like, oh, there she is. There she is. There's that minister. He has to do a thing. It always happens.

That's among other things. It's loving, doing ministry with your children. You know what I'm saying? Doing ministry with your spouse, doing ministry with your friends. Like, I think the persecution is good. Yeah. I genuinely, and I know people want to hold back as much persecution in the Christian nation as possible, and I can understand that.

I just think on some level we need it. Yeah. I really do. I don't think we'll have as many podcasts. That's true. True. I do think, yeah, there's a reason why I think, I think, the church tends to grow really rapidly and really miraculously where persecution's present.

And I'm not talking about the kind of persecution that's just people being annoyed with us. Yes. I'm talking like straight on. Like why is it that the Middle East is exploding right now? Why is it before that mainland China was exploding? Why is it that in places in southern Sudan and it like it's like where there's legitimate danger. she grows, both in numbers, but also like in power and the miraculous. And that was the funny thing about, you know, you get overseas, you see some crazy stuff.

And then it was like, you had to check those things back in when you came through customs. You're like, you know, the miraculous answers to prayer that's got to stay there. It can't come with me. So, yeah, we could use, I think we could use just a little something. I don't think so. Well, I feel sanctified a little bit. An hour closer, sis, one degree of glory to the next. Just a little bit.

I guess when you think of, because with our audience, we have just a lot of different Christians and a lot of different life stages. But we have a lot of people that listen to this podcast that want to know the Lord. Amen. They want to grow. And I think the difficulty of this era is that podcasts are forming people more often than churches and pastors. and it's hard for people to find a place to go.

And so I guess as a pastor, I guess what's a shepherding word you'll give to people that just, yeah, I want to be like Jesus too. Yeah, amen. Here's what I would say. This is the framework I put the beatitudes in. Deep work over time in community. It's the only way to be formed.

So deep work, what I'm saying is not just that you know some Bible verses, right? It's not just that, oh, I know, it's like a, how do I understand who God is and understand who I am, that wrangle? Like, you know, that's a big one. So deep work is necessary. And then an understanding that this thing is slower than anybody wants it to be. But, you know, Paul calls it one degree of glory to the next. But one degree over the course of a decade, it'll take you farther than you can even imagine right now.

Another thing about over time, I would say, is to just remember everything's a season. Nothing is the end. And so if this is a hard season, okay, but spring's coming. Yeah. Springs coming. I don't know when. And I don't know how awesome of a spring it'll be, but it won't always be this. This is not your life.

This is a season. So deep work over time. And then, man, we can't be formed without others. So you've got to get into community. I don't, I think God's never called you to go to church. He's called you to belong to a group of people. And that's a different kind of connection than going, especially today where you could go to a church with 5,000 people and never meet anybody.

And now you're just, it's like an ecclesiological buffet. You're just getting the music over here and you like the preaching over here. And you're going to go listen to these four podcast preachers after that and then go listen to your. And what you're doing in that moment is you've got content, which is to me like having wood without fire or a sail without wind, content doesn't change anybody's life. Content will not transform you without the power of the spirit. And then I think the spirit is chosen to use other people to sanctify and to help us. You can't do it on an island.

which is why I think John and First John is so profoundly beating that drum of loving your brothers and sisters and belonging in a way that you're fully known and then fully loved, but also disciples and coached. And so that's the framework. I think deep work. So don't be satisfied with two inches of water, plumb the deeps. I realized, I wish I had better news. I wish I could tell you how to speed it up. There is no spiritual bypass. There is no, you might get a night where you get two clicks, two degrees of glory,

but you ain't ever getting 10. It'll kill you. Your soul can't handle 10 clicks. But you might get, I believe in deliverance, man. I believe in the fog lifting. I believe in a shot of Holy Ghost adrenaline. I just think the way we're transformed slower than that. That's good.

I might give me two degrees of glory. Yeah. But I mean, I'm still on the journey. Yeah. Still on the long journey home. That's encouraging. And then lean into one another. Get some real friends.

Like, be known. I think that matters. It's good. Thank you, Mr. Chandler. Man, it's always an honor to talk to you. And honor is mine. You're wise, wise, man. Thank you, man.

Get his book Becoming Like Jesus. Thank you for everything you've done for the body of Christ, man. Linking the show. Can't believe it. Peace. Bye you. With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Libly. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.