With The Perrys - Moving from Bitterness to Resilience with Toni Collier

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Pain changes us, and it can make us bitter before it makes us resilient. We can also become more attached to our pain than to our Savior, and that’s idolatry. Toni Collier joins the Perrys to talk about what bitterness looks like and what it means to reckon with our suffering instead of running from it. Toni and Preston discuss their individual experiences with ADHD and how their brains uniquely process trauma and pain. Toni unpacks her experience with EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy and how it creates the space to process through hard things. Toni, Jackie and Preston together point to the fact that healing is a communal project – healing requires bringing our suffering to the Lord and to safe people in our lives. Connect with Toni instagram.com/tonijcollier www.youtube.com/@tonijcollier www.tonijcollier.com www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0B1QZ47L2 Check out two seasons of Unshakeable Moxie, a FREE video series from Our Daily Bread, co-hosted by Toni Collier: www.odbm.org/en/media/unshakable-moxie Scripture references: Judges 4 Ruth 1:20 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://weekendtoremember.com - Register now with code PERRY to save $100 - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, Sainte. How are you? What's good with you? I hope you're good. I ain't going to hold you, the mic being over here. It's kind of, but, yeah, I don't really know what to say. Me neither. Okay, so we got Tony call you here.

Hi, Tony. Hi. How are you? And I like her outfit. Honestly, I stayed up all night. I was like, how can I be cool? How can I channel a peri? I am a peri.

And then I came up with this color. And then I remember. you said the bold pant. Uh-huh. And I've got the bold pant. Uh-huh. I like it. Thanks.

Yeah, when I saw you, I said, okay. I almost wore a hat, but I just got my hair done, so. That would have been interesting. You only want to notice. I don't think I, yeah, I don't, you would have to do a neutral. You say pant. Well, it's only one pair. Right.

I don't know, what you're saying? They say pants. Pairs of pants. I know, I get it. This is a pant. I actually think that might be correct, but it's just weird. I've never seen it. Pants.

It's because, you know, black people put an ass on anything. Yes, we do. Quakers. J.C. Penny's. Publics. You say pants. Yeah. Pants.

Pants. Pants does feel better. Yeah. Pant? It sounds like Bridgeton or something. I don't know. I'm nervous. I just wanted to be accurate.

It's okay. Pant. It don't fall. It don't really. A pant. Tony, for those who don't know you introduce yourself, I think you would be better at that than we would. Okay, this is good.

I don't really know what to say about myself. I feel like the most important thing is I'm a single mom in ministry. I got two kids and two baby daddies. Okay. So let's just start there. All right. Married, divorce twice.

Let's just go deeper, go home. Okay. You know? I would say when people look for me or look for guidance for me, they're trying their best to still have hope when there's a lot of pain involved. Because I think that I've at least tried to have a lot of hope with a lot of pain involved in my life. So lots of trauma. But I'm just holding on. I love Jesus.

Yeah. And I feel like I'm smart. You are. And, but I'm a little crazy. You are. And there may be ADHD involved. No, it is. It's not a maybe.

It is. It's so bad. I don't want to take the medicine. I just want to see. What's God going to do? What's it going to do? I write books, podcast, all the things. But it takes me a long time to do things because of ADHD.

Right. And that's it. Do y'all want to talk about ADHD really briefly? It's so hard, Preston. Yeah. To describe your brain and describe your brain. Oh, it's like a roller coaster. See?

Like the Goliath. It's like, everything's going so good. And then I'm like, what's that? And then we, boom! And then we come back and we're like, man, that was so fun. Okay. See, I think it's different levels to this. Okay.

Preston said it's not that. He said this isn't a roller. Because, yeah, I can definitely agree with that certain aspects of it. I think I have that in moments. I think my brain, so I'm in ADHD therapy. Really? You know that's the thing, right? Can you send me the link?

No problem. Yeah. Jackie enrolled me. Yeah. Because I'm from the outside. You know what my ADHD therapy said to me? She said, most people come because of their spouse's symptoms. Dang.

Well, unfortunately, for me, I don't have that. So I need you all to go ahead and send me to me. I'll send it to you. Yeah. Okay, that's amazing. Yeah, my brain is like, I can't really describe my brain. I think my brain is the person who thinks very creatively. Yeah.

I have a big imagination, but I really don't have the ability to organize things in my brain or even my life. I just don't, my brain doesn't work. And so I'm learning about my frontal lobe and frontal lobe. And part of my brain that stores memory. part of my brain that stores trauma and I was all connected and so like yeah all that stuff it's crazy yeah can I just shout you out for that really that's first of all it's vulnerable to even have to say yeah something is going on in there that maybe ain't supposed to be going on in yeah but then honestly to do your work and like go and like figure it out that's big yeah dang

I love that you know I wanted I'm maybe I should just go on a roller coaster like you and just yeah yeah mine is definitely a little different because I for me it's about having two many buckets of strategy and hopping from thing to thing. And so I've actually been incorporating this coaching process called the full focus mode and trying to finish something all the way through. Yeah. So you have a hard time on sticking to one thing. So you kind of hop. Now it's going to get done. But she may be a little late is the problem. Yeah. But if I can do something from start to finish, it's actually strengthening my brain to focus more. Yeah. Same. Same way. What's interesting is that even in the process of Preston,

pursuing therapy and stuff like that, I started to study that there is a relationship between how even the ADHDD mind process is pain. 100% and suffering. And that's the topic for today. Is, you know, just... See what you did there. Yeah.

I just, she knows it's almost like she write books or something. Pain and suffering resilience from a feminine perspective. Yeah. I guess for you, you have endured a lot of pain. I guess what would you even say, like how have you seen your brain change? Yeah.

Because of what you went through. This makes me so sad, actually. Because as soon as you said it, I was like, dang, I think I'm supposed to talk about this. I don't remember a lot of things. And it makes me so sad because what's happening is my brain is trying to protect me from overload because I have been overloaded a lot, whether it was, you know, as a little girl being exposed to pornography, my dad being an alcoholic, being verbally abusive,

my mom being extremely sick, no one to take care of me, just kind of figuring out how to survive. Like, my brain doesn't want my body to feel the weight of the pain from those experiences, so it'll like take them. And what's unfortunate is that the brain is smart to a certain capacity,

but our neurofeedback channels, they process both joy and pain, like in the same channel. So when my brain tries to keep me from pain, it'll also keep me from joy. So it'll literally take painful memories and really good memories. And so there'll be moments, my friends,

and my friends know, they're just like, you didn't remember telling me this? Or they'll be like, remember that one time girl? We were on vacation and this happened, and I'll be like, no. And I think that that's the effect of painful memories on ADHD, because when I'm at work, I'm having to write everything down to make sure that I actually execute my job

because I know that my brain is going to default to wiping memories out. It sucks. And that's deep. We're trying. Because it's not the same as fight, flight, or freeze, or is it? No. Well, I mean, the effect on your body is, right? So we naturally go to a certain mode when we are afraid or we're overwhelmed.

we can either fight, flight, or just like freeze. But the truth is those things are taught oftentimes with attachment styles. So if you had a parent that came to you when you made a mistake and yelled at you, you probably froze. So right, those are more behavioral things. This is more of like a biological, a chemistry thing like with our brains that is just trying to protect us from the inside out. Those things are mechanisms from the outside in.

How can I protect what's on the inside of me? Okay, I'm just about to bounce. I'm going to head out. I'm just curious real quick. Yeah. You're a Bible teacher. Well, how did you come to like know this? Know what happened.

Yeah, like, because it seemed you. Yeah. What was? Why are you talking about all this stuff? I'm a nerd. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so long story short, I, before I started preaching, teaching, doing all the things,

I actually had healing community groups, like courses for women to actually process through their pain. And one of the things that we always did was partner with these brilliant Christian psychologist. and psychiatrist. So Dr. Kurt Thompson, Deborah Feleta, Dr. Anita Phillips. And so I would just, like, pull on their expertise, interview them on the podcast, take some of their different strategies and knowledge, Jim Cress.

I mean, I just love it. I'll just eat it up. But then also, I went through these different certifications around freedom from story narrative therapy, all that stuff. So that's just like in the back pocket. That's really great. I mean, I think it's good to have that awareness. And I know people listening, like, man, I want to add the same awareness about my brain and my emotions.

It's cool. What just came to my mind is how the first time we talked, and this might be on the joy grief spectrum, so you might not remember. But the first time we talked, we was. I know, I'm like digging for, I'm like, what are you talking? It was if gathering, right? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. You were hosting a restaurant.

And we were in the back of SUV. And somehow I had met her, I don't know. And Tony, no disrespect. She's, okay. Forces herself on people. I don't feel like I forced myself on you. I'm saying you, you don't have. Right, there is not a lot of boundary.

You have boundaries. I have boundaries. But you don't have fear. I am on the playground. That's what I mean. And I'm gonna play it every station. I walked in the green room and you immediately start talking to me. Like there wasn't like the thing.

I'm an extrovert. Right. My point is we were in the back of an SUV and we started talking about EMDR. Yep. how I guess even in your one let's talk about EMDR but also like has that helped you remember okay has it scared you when you did absolutely okay I'll say this first the first rounds of EMDR I did were on my dad and how just he was just so verbally abusive and the lord has redeemed him and our relationship is amazing today but I really had to be direct about some things that were said to me as a

little girl I actually had to take a break I came into a counseling session. I was like, excuse me, ma'am, the last couple sessions, I've cried for 72 hours afterwards and I have kids to take care of. Like, I can't function right now, so we're going to need to pace it. So absolutely, it's caused like some tremendous pain because what EMDR is, essentially, it's ripping the band-aids off so you can do surgery. And surgery ain't the same as putting a little rap on something. And the way that I described it, I think I remember this moment with you is that our lives are like these bookshelves. And if our story's being told chapter by chapter, book by book, they're left to right,

age one, two, seven, 17, 35, what happens when trauma enters this story is that a book like slightly gets pulled out. Now it doesn't get taken out. It just gets pulled out. And that is a damage riff, right? Like there's a riff in the story. What EMDR does is it does not pull the book out either. Instead, it just pushes it back in.

so that your story can be told without all the riffs. And unfortunately, in order to push the book back in from when you were six, three, seven, you have to go back to it. You have to read it. You have to actually name that that happened to you. And then you got close it and push it back in. It's still a part of your story. It has to be.

Because it is a part of who you are today. But what I think all of our goals is, is really not to, like, erase what happens. to us, but for us to be able to tell the story with hope and not bitterness. Like, I think that's the goal. And that is EMDR. And it is terrible and good. Yes. You just, yeah, when I first heard about it, I was like, whoa, I didn't even know this exists.

Yeah. You just explained it really dope and like a metaphor. But I think it may be helpful for you to kind of explain what the process actually looks like, because I can see people like what happens when you do it, you know, like. So our time with family life was cool. I mean, for me, it was a blessing to be around so many married couples and even seeing so many married couples work on their marriage in a society where divorce rate is so high. So to see a room full of people from all different age groups, from all different backgrounds, working in marriage was encouraging. And just the intentionality that family life had on helping married couples connect with one another on an intimate level. whatever season of marriage that you're in, any weekend of intentionality and growth is something that every couple needs. Not just couples that's going through it, not just couples in crisis, just couples in general. Weekend to remember has over 80 locations nationwide every year and has

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I know for me, I think weekend to remember just kind of gave us language for how to communicate better. You never realize how communication can actually be the root of so many issues. You think it's them, you think it's their problems, and it's really like,

no, you just don't know how to talk to each other. And so I think getting strategies and biblical insight on even just communication was significant. So learn ways to improve communication, resolve conflict, and restore romance in your marriage. Register now with Code Perry to save $100 at Weekend to Remember.com. That's weekend to remember.com. Code Perry. All right, so there's a couple of different methods, but the psychological framework is you need to be in a state of complete relax. relaxation so that you were able to access a memory without all of the distractions of life.

So have you ever, this is a good example, have you ever right before you go to sleep get like 50 million ideas? You like become super creative and you're like, am I going to remember this in the morning? And then you make the mistake of not writing it down and you don't ever remember it. Right before you go to, you don't do that? Because maybe you're creative all the time. Maybe. No, I get creative ideas in my sleep. Okay. Yes. This is the same. same yes. She wake up and talk about it. I'm like, I showed you all that why you was sleeping. For real. Okay, the way that I believe,

I have a theory around this, the reason why I believe that we get these creative ideas when we're in states of rest is because the ultimate creation happened when we're in the ultimate shalom, the ultimate peace with God, right? That's great. You didn't bopping around, little telitubbies. And I think that what EMDR is doing is putting you in that mode of rest so that you can process things with creativity. Creativity is important when you're processing pain because your brain has to have enough space to say to create different outcomes.

That's great. Right? That's great. And so EMDR, so physically what's happening is that, gosh, this is so difficult to say not, to say like normal. But it's eye desensitation rhythms. And when your eyes go back and forth, forth like this, it creates this chemical reaction that puts you into a state of rest.

It's not like hypnosis, but it is just this like, I don't even know. It's sort of like REM sleep, so your eyes shift back and forth. It's desensitizing your eyes. So you can do that sometimes with a stick. So the counselor will do this back and forth. So your eyes can shift and actually create the REM sleep, right? You can put plugs in your ears and there be sounds back and forth, back and forth. back and forth or even tapping.

So sometimes when I get super overwhelmed, I'll like tap back and forth to kind of bring myself in there. When you're in that state, here's the best example, story testimony I've heard of a woman essentially reconciling the pain. She was held at gunpoint,

held at gunpoint, super traumatizing. She didn't know what to do. She's like, I just keep getting triggered if I hear loud sounds, if someone sneaks on me like it's over. Her counselor took her back into the moment in a REM sleep and had her recreate the memory where the guy was holding a water gun instead of a real gun. This sounds like a crazy movie.

And so what happened was her brain processed the memory as, yes, this did happen to me, but it wasn't so traumatic. So that when you fast forward into her today life, she doesn't have the memory that impacts her creativity in life, the way that she responds to people, her relationships, et cetera, et cetera. Here's an example for me. One of the most traumatic memories that I had as a very little girl was when I spilled some red Kool-Aid all over the dining room table. And my dad started yelling at me. And I just, I'm in EMDR, I'm processing this memory.

I can see the table. I can see the bowl. I could see what I was eating. I could see my mom in the kitchen afraid because he's yelling. And I'm just, and I feel so alone and my mom won't come rescue me. my counselor asked me if in that moment my dad had any other tools to process that mistake if any had ever been given to him and the truth is my grandfather was the same way so he didn't have what was needed and then she had me imagine if he did have the tools how would he have

responded he would have said it's okay let me help you clean that up that even right now like I can just feel so much compassion for my dad versus anger and bitterness and resentment. He did the best with what he had. And I feel that like right now in my body versus the fear and resentment that I had for him for years. Wow. It's almost like you're reclaiming moments. You better reclaim our time. Yeah.

You better reclaim it. I think the principle, even if EMDR and things like that aren't something that people feel comfortable pursuing. I think I want to get at the principle of a part of resilience and a part of reckoning with suffering has to be dealing with suffering. You understand what I'm saying? Because we don't like to sit in the stuff. We don't like to think about it and process it.

And I think that actually hinders our ability to be resilient. You know what I'm saying? So even in this show, what's the name of it? Unshakeable Moxie. Even in the experiences and the stories that you've heard from women, I imagine that a part of the resilience

has to be a reckoning with the memories. Listen to me. You know Johnny Erickson Tata? Yes. We did an episode of Unshakeable Moxie with her, and I will now, for some reason I won't forget this, okay? I'm sitting at her table in California, and she goes, you know what's interesting about, like, my illness

and what's happening with my body? She is a, Lord, I can't say the word, quadriplegic. She's paralyzed from the neck down. because it's quadra four. Okay. I don't know. She said I still get chronic pain. I can feel I'm paralyzed and I can't move my limbs,

but I still have chronic pain especially at night. And she was like, oftentimes, I have a nurse, I have Ken, her husband that will move her throughout the night so that she doesn't feel so much pain. But she goes, sometimes, oh, this makes me want to cry, Lord, sometimes I don't, I don't want to bother them. I want them to get rest. So I will sit. in the pain.

And I am sitting there like, what, then what happens? And she said, I'll just pray scripture over myself. I'll just sit in it with the Lord and know that morning will come. They will get the rest that they need. And I'll be moved eventually. But I'm just like, so you choose it? Like you could ask for rescue. But then there are moments where I think that you choose not to be rescued.

so that you can bear and build resilience and Moxie. And I'm just like, ooh, I don't know if I'm there yet. I think I am. I think there are certain moments where I don't ask for rescue, and I'm like, Lord, I'll wait on whatever it is, but it's not a lot, it's maybe once or twice. You said Moxie like that's a word that means something? I know it's hard, isn't it?

When I first heard it when I was pitched, in the context. I'll never forget. Our Daily Bread came up to me and they were like, we have this show, we want you to be on. It's all about resilience and grit.

And I was like, well, okay, what's it called? And they had like the pitch deck. They shared screen. It was like, unshakable Moxie. And I was like,

well, which part of it is about resilient? What are you saying? What's going on? They're like, moxie. Moxie means resilience. And I was like, why don't we just go unshakable resilience

or unshakable grit? Moxie. I don't like the sound of the word. It's like moist. And there's a whole. That's ridiculous. Yeah, we stay at Moxie Hotel a lot. There's a hotel.

Oh, but that's M-O-X-Y. This is M-O-X-I-E. It's the same, though. All right. Yours are, like, I don't think, imagine you, imagine you write the book about pain calling Moxie. It is interesting. It's just not going to get the same.

Yeah, because who, I didn't write that in my elementary school papers or the middle school or high school. Never heard of it. It's like a cool white girl name. Hey, Moxie. We could have said of European descent. Um, or. Caucasian.

I ain't anybody walking around to me. Hey, I ain't talking. But you know what? Oh, no, I'm thinking Roxy. I was going to say, I do know somebody. Is Roxy not Moxie? You sat down and you said that Deborah is on your heart. I don't know if Debra connects to Resilience or Moxie or none of that, but we're just going to follow your lead.

All right, fine. So what had happened was I was praying for the podcast last night and this morning, and I just felt the Lord over and over again point me to Judges 4. And I honestly did not know why until I sat down. and I was like, what is it? I think... Sorry for the Nats. Because he's just hovering around.

My face just now. I hope somebody zooms in on that moment. I see like you playing it off, but it's just keep... You know what it is? I'm from the country and it don't bother me. Okay, it's bothering me. So she just gave me a kiss on the cheek. Just the second of him.

I was like, well, here we are. Me and her. Yeah, it's making me mad. Anyway, it's bothering you. See? Look, see. Oh, yeah. But you know, black people really don't like.

We don't. They don't belong. This is a project of the fall. But I feel like this, I feel like honestly, like they built this in their house when you really think about it. I get it. They don't pay HOA fees. Go ahead. Judges for. So like, when I was processing through it and I sat down, I was like, what is it about Deborah? What is it about Deborah? And I think she is quite literally a woman of Moxie. Okay. Now I can't say it without looking at you in your eye. Okay, so what had happened was is that Deborah was a judge.

She was this prophetess, if you will. And you have her sitting at the tree. She's heard a prophetic word from the Lord that she has given to Barrick. I hope I'm saying that right. It gives Brach. But it might be bare. I don't know. It's B-A-R-A-K.

It's that sweet thing you got. Back. So they're around me. Yeah. So he is the leader of the army, and Deborah is saying to him, listen, the Lord quite literally told you that you're supposed to call out 10,000 warriors from the tribes of Naftala. Did you hear me? Come on.

I'm saying, I heard you. Okay. And then I will call out Cicera, who is the enemy of the other army, commander of Jabin's army, along with his chariots and warriors to Kishon River. There I will give you victory over him. Now, Barrick is like, well, wait a minute. I'm still a little afraid, but I'm a head out, but you got to come with me. Deborah, a woman, okay?

And she was like, all right, I'm going with you, but you will receive no honor in this venture. The Lord's victory over Cicero will be at the hands of a woman. Here's a couple things that I love about Deborah. One, she does not demoralize a man. She does not say to him, you weak. I cannot believe you're not going. I cannot believe you're not listening. She reminds him of God's promises, and she goes to support him.

The definition of an Azer Connegedo, a helper suitable. Come on, I'm going to go with you. But I just want you to know that you won't get the victory for this, but let's ride. They go out into the war. They win. Obviously, God has prophesied this. She is the messenger for this. And what I love so much about her is that, first of all, she fought alongside him,

which I don't have that type of moxie. I'm going to tell right. I'm a play dead. I'm on the ground. Me and the horse. Uh-huh. And then she probably. prophesized that a woman will get victory and it's not even her. There's something to me about a

woman who says, I'm going to fight the battle, but I don't need the victory for it. Like that to me, like that level of resilience, like I know that I don't owe my entire story to myself. And actually, I know that other women have walked alongside me. There are other women that have, that I can push forward to the forefront. And what happened was, okay, y'all go read the whole. thing. But long to be short, Barrett is winning this battle. And Cicera, the leader of the other army, runs into this like, just, it's another city. It's a desert place. And he runs into a woman named J.L. at her tent. Now, her husband ain't nowhere to be found. I don't really know what's going down there. But she essentially like, this is going to sound terrible, but kind of manipulates

him by having him come in and receive rest. Now, we don't know why. But she kills him. But she kills him. Mm-hmm. She takes a tent peg to the side of this sucker head. And I mean, that's like the force that you would have to drive. For sure. And she gets the victory. Straight through his dome. Said straight through the dome.

Right, straight through the dome. Pop, pop, pop. You know what I'm saying? I like Deborah because she knows who she is. I'm a judge. First of all, I'm not even supposed to be in this war, but I'm a helper. I'm supposed to help you by giving you the word. of God. I like her because she's not self-righteous in any way. She shares. And I think the Lord

maybe has her on my heart because I think that as women, when we face inordinate amounts of pain, we have to have like a home base of who we are. Like the truth is I could claim victory over a lot of stuff that has happened in my life. I could actually boast about a lot of things that I've overcome. But I think I'm trying at least to have a posture of humility and also being positioned stationed at my place and not trying to play whatever, trying to, oh, look at me now, I'm a warrior princess. Look at me now like, I'm stronger than a man. I overcame this. There's just something about her personality that I think I deeply resonate with and want to be like. That's deep. I think what comes to my mind is the alternative perspective,

which would probably, I actually don't know where to find this. It got to be. Why is the Lord? The Lord putting us in the word that we ain't even, I mean, I studied judges once, but. It got to be after judges. Okay, great. Which is Ruth. I think of, I just think of Naomi.

Uh-oh, uh-oh. And I'm not even going to look for it. And how when Naomi goes back into her, uh, city, she's like, yeah, don't call me Naomi, call me Mara, because the Lord has made my life bitter. I guess what would be, I don't know, now I ain't going to ask a direct question. Let's talk about how pain can make us bitter before it makes us resilient. Y'all has Bible studies with the Paris. We are in Bible study with the papers. Oh, my goodness. Okay, I have one, I'm not trying to boast or anything like that, but I do have one

singular moment in my life where I became really bitter. And that was processing through this, the divorce. Man, when I first found out that my ex-husband was still cheating, I got on the internet's and I was ready to ride. I wasn't ready to like tell all the stuff, but I was definitely like, I changed my status on Facebook from married to single. And everybody was like, what's going? I mean, I was like poking. And, um, I'll never forget my quiet time dwindling with the Lord out of that. Because if we claim bitterness and we identify with pain to the point where it's like attached to who we are, I just don't think that God has a lot of space to be in our life.

And I don't really know why yet. Maybe we'll verbally process through that. But there is something about being attached to our pain more than our Savior that drives him out. I don't, because it's not that he, it's not that he doesn't want to be a part, like he doesn't want to come and rescue us. It's that I think we make an idol out of it. So we doesn't have the space to save us from it if that made. I don't even know if that makes sense.

Yes, it does. Okay, I'm trying. You're in the bank. Go ahead. And so with Sweet Naomi, she just got to a place where it had consumed her. And I think we have to be careful with that. And I think the only way out of it, for me at least, was being honest with the Lord and saying, I can see the bitterness.

Like, I can see it. And because we'd be able to see it. But it feels good to say something slick on Instagram. It feels good to make the other person look like the bad guy, even if they are. It feels good. Even to, like, that false humility, like, there's a part of me when I think about Naomi that, that woe is me spirit in her, like, oh, I just. that's not my name, Ruth.

Like, it's not like somebody unheeled mama. You know what I'm saying? It's like, really, you just emotionally entitled. You actually just want someone to pity you. But if they leave, you're going to be like, well, wait. You know, like that kind of, that emotional game, that manipulation. And I think for us, we just have to get to the point where we're being honest with the Lord and saying, I'm mad. Yeah.

Yeah. Like I'm bitter. Yeah. Yeah, I think what I was reading through Ruth a couple of months ago, because John Piper has a series on Ruth called A Sweet and Bitter Providence. Because when you read Ruth from the vantage point of seeing God's hand, it changes even how you understand Naomi's story. Because Naomi gets lost.

She is lost and sauce. The book of Ruth becomes all about Boaz and the kids' Medeemer and the lady laying at his feet, the threshing the floor and all the stuff. when you miss God's sovereignty in Naomi's life. You know what I'm saying? Whereas like, yes, you lost your husband. Yes, you lost your sons. And one, I want to step into that story and grieve with her and say that that's painful.

That hurts. But then when you turn to the end of the book and then she has Obed in her hands, then you realize like, oh, the pain was purposeful because God actually placed you in the lineage of the Messiah. And so even when it comes to your pain now, it's like in the, the same way that you really can't fully discern the hand of God even in this book or even in a, what's the other lady who had to go to the king and wait for the sceptor to come out, Esther. Like when you can't, wow, I'm, when you can't see his hand, you have to trust that he's actually up to good.

Yeah. I got a question for y'all, though, as it relates to bitterness. Because I think one of the core things underneath bitterness is really our sense of justice. Yeah. We want justice, you know, and I think it's indicative of being made in the Amago Day. And I think a lot of times it feels like we're not getting justice when we feel like the people around us don't see or understand or feel what we're going through. And so I guess what does it look like in the human, like, in human interactions or what, like, what does, like, healthy venting look like that doesn't appear bitterness or bitterness or even. is bitterness. Vencing to people?

Because I think bitter people, bitter people want to be heard. That's good. That's really good. They want to be heard. They want to be seen. I think it just turns into bitterness because they're looking for people to justify them and not God to vindicate them, not God to see them.

And I think we don't deal with the under, because I've seen people being brought off, like, you're just a bitter person. And this is like, okay, what's underneath that bitterness? That's really good. It's really a sense of justice, I believe. Okay, so the first thing, say, I'm compartmentalized. Am I making sense?

No, that's such, it's great. The first thing I will say is on Unshakeable Moxie, we interviewed Dr. Bernice King, the youngest daughter of Martin Luther King, Jr. That's another story where she talks about her bitterness. She's like, I hate all white people. She's like, I can't eat, mm-mm, all y'all go. You killed my dad, you killed my grandmother.

I have had to. watch this trauma. And there's a quote by Martin Luther King. I really hope I don't mess it up that says the moral. And you mean present tense hate or past tense? No, she hated. Okay. She had bitterness. I just want it to be clear. But she went on this and it's on the show. She talks about this moment where she goes on the show. It's a white interviewer, white guy. And he's like being vulnerable and her heart breaks for him. And it's just this beautiful moment. So, but Martin Luther King Jr. has this quote. I hope I don't mess it up. That the moral arc of the universe bends towards justice. And I am assuming that he is talking about the moral arc that

God created, right? That it bends towards goodness, that it bends towards him having vengeance for us on our behalf, that everything is pointing towards what is just and good and right. In that vein, when you said that bitter people want to be heard, they want to vent, they want to be seen, all these things. Like, I think about the difference between venting and being seen. Like, I think it is okay for us to want to be seen by humanity. But the bitterness I think we're supposed to take to the Lord because that's heart stuff, right? Like the effects of the heart is something that we have to, I think, wrestle with with the Lord. And I also think it's about community. I think it goes back to the way that Jesus had his circles too, where, you know, we talked about it on another episode where he had

the most intimate circle, which was him and the Lord. When he needed to process things that humanity could not hold, he went to the Lord. Then he had a little outer circle, Peter, James, and John. When he wanted to process things that the world shouldn't see, he trusted an intimate three who could actually hold what he was venting about. That's good. That's really good. And we don't want to do that because we want the masses. to hear our pain. Yeah. Because quantity makes us feel better versus intimacy,

which actually challenges us to hold the pain, to sit in it, to like actually, like have someone else who deeply cares about us say, that's bitterness, that's anger, that's not of the Lord. Yeah. Like that's, because they ain't going to do that on Instagram. But also empathy. because I think bitter people need empathy too

and what I've seen in the body of Christ I've seen I've seen people I've seen people picking shoes what type of bitter person they want to have empathy with depending on the type of bitterness they can relate to Oh

I can have grace for that but I ain't on it. Right right Right so it's like you can You can sit with your friend and her bitterness because you can relate to our pain but if this person, if you can't relate to this person's pain, you're like, they bitter.

Yeah. And it's just like, I think the body of Christ really has to holistically have, like, we have to get, we have to get underneath everybody bitterness. And then, because if we don't, we'll never be able to really point them to Jesus. I just wanted to Google the definition of bitterness. I want to see. Because I feel like we think we know what it means and we might not. bitterness is I hate when it goes away bitterness is an emotion typically characterized by feelings of anger, resentment, and hostility.

When we experience bitterness, we often feel like we have been wronged or taken advantage of in some kind of way. So basically at the root of bitterness is a sense of injustice, which goes back to the original idea. idea. Yeah. What do we do with it? We bring it to the Lord. We bring it to our safe people. And then what?

Yeah. Me and Preston were processing this yesterday. Yeah. Why I asked y'all the question. We were processing this yesterday. And I think one element of dealing with bitterness is coming to terms with the fact that life is unfair. It just, you come up higher. It just is unfair.

Yeah. And I said that. She told me that yesterday I was like, who. Yeah, because I think the expectation and the desire for equity is a heavenly hope. But that's where equity will always exist. But here there's always going to be just kind of this disordinate care. There's going to be this imbalance. And it's not to say that we don't pursue it, that we don't cultivate it, that we don't try, that we don't be.

But there's also a sense in which just life ain't fair. And one of the things I was telling the present, I was like, I mean, even when you look at the cross, the cross is, unfair. It's not right. He's the one person in all of the universe that doesn't deserve to die, but he dies. And we've actually been called to follow him. So that therefore means that even in our discipleship, we will come up under, even more so as a Christian than a non-Christian, we will be positioned to experience inequity often. And so it's at that point, then we have to lean into God's power. And I think a part of leaning into God's power is forgiveness. Yeah. It's saying, even if you don't say, sorry, I got to release you.

That's why we read the book of Philemon. Paul is over here like, yeah, whatever, Onesimus did, charge that to my account and release him. And so I think that, but that feels, I feel the Holy Ghosts, it feels unfair to release people of injustice if you don't believe that Jesus actually paid for it. But that's the thing, though. That's the thing. I think that. I am. I think we like, because me and Jackie, we talked about this for a while yesterday.

I think that is the hardest thing to do if we don't sit in the tension of why people are bitter. But I think that, I think ultimately that's what we have to do. We have to show people, no, you're bitter. But like, I'm going through something like this with a family member. Like, I'm trying to show this person that he's bitter. but I have to be able to properly sit in this pain in order to do that. And I think that, yeah, I think we... Yeah, it's the balance of empathy sitting in the pain because Hagar.

Hagar is being subjected to abuse and inequity and justice at the hands of Sarai. She flees Sarai, goes to the wilderness, and meets with God. God is like, hey, God, what's you doing? She like, Sarai is tripping. God is like, okay, your son, he going to do this, da, da, da, da, he affirms her. Yeah. He, like, he affirms the lady so much so that she is, he calls him a name. She says, you are Elroy, the God who sees.

But he doesn't just affirm. He also sends her back to submit. And so there has to be some degree of empathy and exhortation when it comes to following the Lord. I have so many thoughts and feelings. Go ahead. Okay, give us your thoughts. No, no, no.

Because we've been talking about this. That's why I was like, you know. Yeah, I wasn't ready. I don't think. My necklace is all mixed up. Okay. I'm sorry. You look all disorientated.

I am. I think the first thing that it had come, that it came, was I just, help me, Jesus. Yes, he's with you. Okay, the first thing that I felt so deeply. is for the person that just had to accept. They're watching and listening, and they just had to accept that the thing that they really wanted, vengeance, justice, for a wrong to be made right,

like, they may never get on this side of heaven. And I don't know why that breaks my heart for some people, but I, because I've had to be, I've had to say, oh, well, like that is just not going to, it's not going to be made. right, maybe on the side of heaven. And I think about Martha, you know, in John 11, and when she's like, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now, I know that God will give you whatever you ask.

Like, to get to that point, I want to just show some grace and empathy to people. And just, it's going to be hard to get there. Like we're not saying this haphazardly like, hey, look, now life ain't going to be fair. So get over it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, no, that's the trek of sanctification and holiness. Yeah. And it is a trek indeed.

Yeah. Grieve that. Grieve it. Then I try to remember the rest of what you hope. It's okay. I think the bitterness thing is interesting. Because then I think about Mary, who shortly after Martha says, Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.

But even now, right? She's showing like outward faith. Mary comes up on the scene and says the same thing absent of but even now. She said, if you'd have been here, my brother would not have died. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. With period.

And I think the assumption is that Jesus would be like, well, Martha had all this faith. Well, Martha gave it to me and trusted me. As a matter of fact, Martha wasn't even talking of. about, but even now, God will give you whatever you ask, so you're going to raise my brother from the dead. She wasn't saying that. What she specifically was talking about was in the resurrected dates. So this is, she's literally like, one day I will see him again, I'm good, like, I'm good,

I trust you. And Mary was not that way. And for the person watching who's just like, I'm not there yet. Like I just, I'm still bitter. I'm still mad. I still want justice. I hope he get a boil on his forehead. Like, Jesus, when he encounters Mary, who's not there yet, is moved to deep compassion.

And it doesn't matter. The Jews were there, their friends were there too. Your friends accepting your bitterness is not what we're talking about. It's you going to the Lord and saying, I'm bitter right now and asking him to heal it that will. Like if you notice in the book, it's about Jesus's response to Mary, not the friends. That's great. They've been crying. They've been mad.

They've been consoling her. They don't even know Jesus. They're not saying, Mary, you've got to have more faith right now. They're not pointing her to him. You have, if you want to get to the point that Jackie is referring to, which is, if the Lord does not one other thing, I respect what happened on the and I sit underneath it, no matter what. If it does not come out my way with the job that I want, I'm good. I'm sitting under the cross.

If this person never gets back where they gave me, I'm sitting under the cross. If you want to get to that point, you have to do what Mary did, which was, I'm going to Jesus with my bitterness because I want him to heal it. Like, and he, I think Jesus will actually take us and console us in our bitterness. He is not like, get up. Do you not know what I did? What I'm about, for Mary, do you not know what I'm about to do?

Yeah. Like, no, he says, okay, he's moved to deep compassion no matter where you are. And that's how we get to that point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I want to ask you guys something as women. So just to give you guys a little preview while me and Jackie was talking about this

is because I'm working on a book too. And in my- Excuse me. Yeah. And in my book, I'm really, working through what this looks like for men. I love y'all, men. But I think the way

men and women process pain and trauma is different because we're really different. I'm liking this question. But also, too, I think and I was picking Jackie's brain and we got into one of our deep conversations because I was like, let me go upstairs and pick my wife's brain

and we just got into the deep conversation. but I think men and women process trauma way differently. I think men process trauma and pain differently because our thing is respect. Yeah. Like when we feel a lack of respect and we feel like people don't honor and respect us, that is when I feel like men become bitter the most. Sure. what is the thing that makes women bitter the most is it is it is it I'm listening what

what did you say I said wow oh okay no so good yeah I'm like because I know what I know what makes men bitter and I'm and I'm and I'm and I so the reason why me and Jack just have this conversation is I was like I wanted to get her opinion because I want to challenge men but I also want to love them deeply yeah in this chapter that I'm writing right okay you said sorry I was texted Brighana, shout out of Brigh. You said, what makes women bitter the most? Yeah, what makes women bitter the, like, I know it's probably multiple things, but if you can pinpoint a couple of things that will have a woman bitter.

I was looking at you. Why? I don't know. Okay. Y'all already had the conversation. You probably already answered it. Okay. I don't think I asked you this question.

You didn't. Ooh. Okay. First of all, I want to say I have severely. underestimated men in their healing journey. I just feel like I have to say it because I was convicted about it when you started talking about it.

I used to say the line, well, women heal eye to high and men heal shoulder to shoulder. And it sounds really cool, right? Like, oh, we're like on the battlefield. No. Actually, there is a depth to men that I feel like has really been underestimated.

And I know that now having a son because I've looked at my son's eyes and I've like held his pain. And so I just want to say that. I just feel like the public apology is worth it because it's probably all over the books and whatnot. I think that I have felt the most bitter when my love and care were taken advantage of. I am not perfect, y'all know, Lord.

But I care really deeply about people. Strangers or not. Like, first of all, I'd be caring about strangers like they family. So you know family about to get everything. I'm like, well, do you need a kidney? I just the other day, this girl was like, yeah, my cousin don't have a kidney. I said, you know, I got an extra one. I could probably give one.

Like, I love people. And so when you're really close to me, I probably go overboard, honestly. And those are some things that I'm healing in me. Misplaced generosity. When you take advantage of my love and my care. and my nurturing, that gets me. Because how dare you take advantage of the very way that I believe God has created women? And I think it goes back to, you know, the basics of marriage and relationship.

Men need honor and respect. And I feel like women need, like, love and care. Yeah. And so when I give it and you're mean, when I give it and you betray me. Got it. That's mean. Cool. That is mean.

What about you, Jacqueline? I don't know. I actually need to process that because mine doesn't feel gender specific. Yeah. It feels just more specific to my personality. So I don't know. I don't know. And that's honest.

Yeah, I don't know. Okay, cool. Okay, I love that. I feel like I spoke for maybe like the general. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. General woman. I am curious how.

I think one of the benefits of being with the Lord is that he is able to turn, you know, what's that? Brandon Lake saying, you turn more, and it going to go ahead. Yeah. I think pain is a good teacher. It's a good trainer. But I also, I've thought about how a lot of the pain that I've gone. through and the suffering that I've gone through has actually given me a particular strategy for how to parent. So how has your pain and how has your troubles actually shifted the way you raise your

kids? What's unfortunate is I got two very different children. Maybe it's not unfortunate. I think there's different strategies for your kids because they're so different. For my daughter, who is 12, I call her my strong-willed blessing. I add blessing. So that's a but I can sleep at night and parent her still with grace. She is just, I hate, you know, they used to call it, she grown. You know, she grown. She just is intelligent and compassionate and extremely discerning. And what I just did is one of the ways that pain has taught me how to parent her.

It's reframing. That's great. That's good. I like that. Okay. Yeah. Like, it is so easy for me to be glass half empty in the way that I process things. But we talked about it in the beginning. EMDR, healing from trauma is about going back and reframing things so that you have more capacity to hold it.

Not numb it, not pretend that it didn't happen. But to come up higher and see, like, oh, we live in a funky ghetto world. It's sin that is hovering over this earth. Like, oh, it's no wonder, right? That's a form of reframing. And the way that I've had to parent my daughter is to genuinely slow down and reframe. She's okay with me saying this because she wanted to talk about it on my podcast, but sweet girl cut her hair last week. She just went in the bathroom and she's just like, y'low.

Your daughter has a lot of hair. She does. And she acts like you. Right. This is actually the other problem. It's to parent yourself. It's hard. and it's also petrifying

because if I see me and you, then I also see the risks and the types of things that happened to me happening to you, it's very scary. You got to reframe. You got to heal. That's good. My sweet girl went into that bathroom,

looking, she got a lot of hair, came out giving Dragon Ball Z. Okay? And my initial response, I'm not kidding you was, are you okay? Mm-hmm. I'm thinking, okay, I know when I cut my hair,

I was going through something traumatic. I know when Britney Spears cut her hair, we all was like, say, Britney. She was going through the kitchen. Oh, baby, baby. That's crazy. Y'all saw them videos where she was in the kitchen with that love. I don't want you to do this anymore.

I don't want you to bring my brain there. Roller coaster deactivate. It's the way you said, baby. Y'all saw her little pelvic bone steam now. I saw I don't want to be remembered of it. And she was in the kitchen. He said, baby, why are you doing?

Why is your eye facing this way? I said, whoa, what's wrong with Brittany? A lot. A lot. And I think that she's doing better. I don't really know where the story is. Somebody got a call. What I'm saying to you is my immediate response is this is a trauma reaction.

Because my story says if you do something like that, it's trauma. I slowed down, however, and I said, are you okay? Is there something you want to talk about? She was like, it's so cute, right? I was like, huh? Yeah. She was like, I just, I wanted a new look. She just was being creative.

Okay. That's the new brand of black parenting. Right? Yeah. Because I cut my bangs and my eyebrows off when I was in elementary school, and that is not the real. reaction I got. I know it was not. It wasn't. If you spilled Kool-Aid and got cussed out, I know you got some words. I'm sitting there, y'all, I am like texting my friends. I'm like, what do I do? Is it what's going on?

Like, what is happening? And I said a prayer and I said, okay, if it were me, if when I was a little girl and I cut my bangs and my parents responded in that way, what would I need today? And I just asked her, like, Like, do you want to go get your hair done? Like, do you want to, like, go to a hairdresser and have it, like, fake? Do you like it like that? I tried so hard. It was hard. I was like, you like it? Because this side is different from this side.

So it's up to you. And she was like, okay, but do you like it? And I'm like, I don't personally like it. So I want to be honest. But if you do, like, that's cool. And we ended up getting her hair fixed and done. And I can only think about this one thing. If deep down inside she was low-key lying and she actually was like, dang, I messed up my hair, I made a mistake, then I get to be the parent that says, even when you make a mistake, I'm right here.

And I will help you fix it. And I'm not going to blow up and I'm not going to get mad. So slowing down and reframing has been a huge deal with my son specifically. This goes back to your question. I just grew up with such, like, a verbally abusive father. I just only knew men to be controlling and mean and loud and angry and assertive. And my son is healing me right now. I mean, he sleeps with me every night.

It's terrible, actually. He sleeps so bad. He's so cute his little hands. But I just, it's giving me hope in men again. It is, it's teaching me. I get visions a lot. about the moment that Mary watched Jesus take his last breath. And before he did, he made sure his mama was taking care of.

But to see your son cry out, Eli, Eli, Lama Sabakhtani, like my cop, like. Come on, pronounce, serious. You see me? That was good. Like, there's a gentleness in men that, man, I just feel like we've taken. And so my son, I think is, I mean, obviously, you just. just being betrayed so many times by men being cheated on. I'm like, my son is like helping me regain.

That's good. That's beautiful. I'm a trust. I feel like we got to get you out of here soon. But I do want to close on that vein. Yeah. In the sense of when you were going through divorce, even as a single mother, how, what has it looked like for men in your life to be good men to you?

Okay. I want to shout out two people. Well, I don't want to tell all my business. But I do want to shout out one person. No, two. I'm going to do two. My first mentor was a man who's a youth pastor, Carlos Torres, never forget him. I was at a church under a pastor that just, I mean, you want to talk about some spiritual manipulation.

He's like, if you ever leave here, then you're going to be disconnected from your purpose, like real weird stuff. That I just did. I wasn't even aware of because it was my first church experience. But I'll never forget. knowing that I was supposed to leave the church. Like I felt it. I knew. I'd been a youth pastor.

I'd been trained up by Carlos. He would challenge me. Like one time I came in a hungover. I had some tequila that night before because I was a fan, not a follower of Christ. And he was like, hey, like, you're not embarrassing the ministry, but you are embarrassing Christ. And I was like, okay, cool, cool, cool. I'm going home.

I'm throwing up. But just really challenged me. And he taught me how to preach. I mean, everything. To see a man not having. have so much ego because I was taking his place. He was the youth pastor. I was coming in behind him to literally see a man say, man, say, man, I can't wait to step to the side and elevate you. Changed me, truly, and really helped me with some early fatherhood wounds that I had.

And on my way out, the pastor at the time, the senior pastor told me that, again, if you leave, you're going to be disconnected from your purpose. And then when I did decide to leave, he completely cut me off, told everyone at the church not to talk to me. Single mom, just gone through my first divorce with Dylan, my daughter. Carlos comes up to me in the hallway. I think it was maybe the day or two before my last day. And he goes, one day, I'm going to see you on TV. One day, I'm going to be like, man, that's that crazy girl that I got to support. And it just, it marked me. And the second man is a leader and executive pastor that I'm sitting under now named Milan Ford. And I never forget, he knew I was processing through the divorce.

He called me and he hired me to consult for a church to do a women's ministry. It was like eight weeks out. He was like, I remember you from, you know, your first ministry days. Would love to just like bring you on and have you help us get this conference together. And I came in and he just kept giving me projects. Like he just knew I needed the finances. He kept giving me projects and hiring me. And recently he, um,

hired a leadership coach for me and just invested in my growth just because those types of men who know and are aware of the inadequacies and the systemic things that women are up against and to go above and beyond to make sure that we are caught up, that we have reps, that we get into the spaces so we can actually get better. My goodness. I'm like, y'all not crazy. Not only y'all. Yeah. So shout out to them. And I bring that up, and if you want to add, I bring it up because I've just been processing how healing is a communal project. You know, like we, I think we want to heal alone because that feels safer, but it's not reality. And how I just think I've been in Ephesians and just processing like the whole body is necessary for maturity, for growth, for processing pain, all the stuff, which includes.

different genders. You know what I'm saying? Not just different giftings, but different genders. And so that's why I asked the question. I like how you tied that in. Yeah. No, I had. The future is female and male.

Yeah, I agree. Correct. That's both coach. All right. You got an answer? No, no. This was great, though. Tell us about the unboxing the mock.

Was it? I'm not going to let you do this. You don't get to do this anymore. She said. Did you say unboxing the moxie? I don't like this. I did. Unshakeable moxie.

Unshakeable moxie. Okay. Long story short. Unshakeable Moxie is a Bible study series. It is produced so well. It's shot and edited so well. It's one of the most beautiful Bible studies I've ever seen. Our daily brand has made it completely free.

So you can literally go to ODBM.org backslash Moxie. Spell it right. M-O-X-E. There we go. Okay, because with the Y. And you can watch the whole thing. And truly it is, it's this. It's us sitting down with women processing through their stories.

How do they get to where they were, all of them are, much older than us. All of them have incredible stories. We're just like soaking in wisdom. And of course you can get like the Bible studies to accompany it. But really you can sit down and take a day and watch season one and season two. That's great. For your resources, baby.

Y'all, all the stuff will be in show notes, unshakeable, moxie, all of Tony's books, her platforms and things. Yeah, that's it. Thank you, girl. Thank you. Bye. Peace.