With The Perrys - Navigating Church Culture Differences With Humility

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

God’s people are represented in more than just your immediate Christian circle and cultural context. And if we are as Christ followers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, there’s always something to learn from one another.   The Perrys reflect on their experiences inside different church settings, denominations, and faith expressions throughout their ministry. They’ve learned that God is too big for us to limit Him to our preferences or the church culture we’re a part of. Jackie and Preston discuss how we have to go in with open minds and humble hearts, not walking in arrogance if people’s worship looks different than ours.   Scripture references: Philippians 2 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yo, what up with y'all? Somebody's baby woke up when you did that. Yo. I know it for a fact. Hi, everyone. Hi, everyone. The Lord is kind. That's what I should do it.

Hi, everyone. You probably don't notice. I'm out of setting spray today, and so I can't really touch on. What's set and spray? I know what it is. Don't tell me. Setting spray is the thing that you spray to make your makeup not slide. Yes.

Okay. It sets it. Okay. But there's different kinds of setting spray that have different finishes. So you have Dewey, which gives you like a shiny kind of finish. You have mat that gives you a more dry, not dry, but like less shiny. Like matte is literally like matte. Okay.

And so I'm out of all of it. So people will be having like mad faces? So I tend to, I might lean on the mat side sometimes because when you do Dewey, it actually highlights the texture in your skin. You got like bumpy skin or you got like, oh, acne marks, the shine shows that. So I might lean towards semi-mat so that, like, you don't see. Because you see these pimples right here? Like, you can see them because of the shine on my skin.

Yeah, so Dewey is like morning dew that be on the grass. If that helps you to understand it, then sure. The shine. Okay, I'm just trying to, you know, make connections in my mind. Yeah, so I'm just disappointed that I'm out. Okay, you got that Dewey on the day. Look at you. Really, honestly, I have a luminous.

Go ahead. I mix foundations. I have a luminous foundation mixed with a skin tent. And so what it does is when you do a luminous foundation, sorry, a luminous foundation with a matte setting spray, it creates like a satin look. Okay. I see a makeup log in your future. Probably not.

Right. Yeah. What are we talking about today? You tell me. So, man, one of the things that me and Jackie was talking about, well, I kind of brought this up to Jackie. I was like, when you think about. the ministry that we've done.

I told Jackie, I was like just throughout the years, we've had the privilege to go in and out a lot of Christian circles. Like we've been in, you know, that Christian circle. We've been in that Christian circle. And what's crazy is I have a lot of friends who do public ministry and whether that's singing, teaching, writing songs, whatever, rapping. And a lot of times they're really just invited to like one kind of Christian circle, their whole ministry. But, you know, it's been years.

We've done, you know, the gospel coalition. And then we'll tell. I mean, we can name them. So there's context. You know, spaces like the gospel coalition or. Desiring God. Desiring God. Stuff like that.

That's obviously reformed. Like, reformed, that's a theology. That's not a domic. denomination. But like those denominations might be Presbyterian, Southern Baptist, but we also have been in black Baptist spaces. I grew up in a missionary Baptist church. Then we have, you know, we did like not a lot, but we did one thing with the Church of God and Christ. I think a lot of churches lean non-denominational where there isn't one, they're not under one camp, but they have different cultural emphasis.

And so like the church that I didn't come to Christ in this church, but when I became a Christian, the church I went to was technically a non-denominational church. But their cultural, their cultural, their environment was very much Pentecostal, all the stuff. You know what I'm saying? Just which I, which I needed at the time. Yeah. And so, but we've been a part of churches that are non-denominational, but are still functionally Southern Baptist or reformed or Presby.

we have just such a variety of experiences. Yeah. And I was just thinking about that one day. And I was like, we should talk about this on the podcast because I don't think that it's by coincidence that in God's sovereignty, he allowed us to experience so many different church experiences in people, groups and environments. Because I think in a lot of ways it has taught us a lot. I feel like in a lot of ways it has humbled me a lot. and yeah, just show me error, show me ways that I should grow,

show me that God's people is vast. Like, God's people are represented in more areas than my Christian circle. And I was like, let's talk about it, you know? And so, like, I think, yeah, so one of the first questions I have for you is, like, in your different experiences, what are some of the things that you've learned,

particularly as it as it as it relates to going in and out of a space. So you leave a space and then you go into another space. Like have you learned anything? I don't know how to explain it with the going in and out thing. But I will say the first part of my Christian ministry journey was all in black churches. That's like doing poetry and sharing my testimony. That's all I knew. So all I knew was spaces where the gifts were present and active.

Yeah. Where music was, you know, jubilant and loud. And dare I say, aggressive, open up your mouth and give God glory, praise, where the preaching was really highly demonstrative and interesting and even parabolic in nature. And so I think when I started to move or be invited into spaces that were more like, you know, where I would teach and they would be quiet. That was an adjustment for me. It was just like, I remember the first time I experienced that, like, it wasn't an amen.

It wasn't a go ahead. It wasn't a nothing. It was just like, oh, we just going, y'all just going to stare at me. Can you talk about that? I'm sorry because okay Yeah yeah No no no Can you talk about that

Because I just did a huge conference And a huge conference And where I forget I think it was like 5,000 people And it was like Predomally like you know White evangelical Christians there

And they put it online And one day they had no mics in the audience So that was one And so you couldn't hear their reaction But you know They wasn't as loud as a lot of times when I go teach black folk. And my people was in the comments.

They was just offended. This, Preston Perry preaching his face off, y'all don't got the spirit of God. Y'all are too quiet. And I went, came home and I told Jackie, I said, what did I do wrong? Because I know you go into a lot of... I do that a lot. I do that a lot, you know. And one of the things I did do is I think I let people online, made people online

and believe that they were way more quiet than they was. I was like, y'all got talked back to me. And I think in their mind, it was like pressing these some encouragement. I really didn't need that encouragement. But like, like, how do you, how did you navigate that when you started? Because you're a really passionate teacher. And so, like, one, I want you to talk about how do you, how do you navigate when you first started to, like, experience that?

But also, what have you learned from those crowds in teaching? I got three things to say. Okay. I'm interested. The first thing is poetry prepared me for that. That's good. So when I was doing poetry when I was 20, 21, I went to a church where we had a poetry team and every week we would do training.

And one element of training was we had to go to, we had to interrupt the Bible study and do a poem. The pastor told the people in the Bible. Bible study not to make any responses, not to look at us, to get on their phones, to have conversations, because the pastor wanted to train us to perform without needing affirmation. Woo! Okay? And so it... I remember that, too.

I developed a muscle of being able to say what I had to say regardless of how y'all respond to it. That's dope. And so I think it, even though it was an adjustment for me to go into particular spaces where they were absolutely silent, it wasn't all the way strange because of my poetry training. So that's number one. Two, I think my ministry emphasis warrants silence. What I mean is when I come into a space, I usually have a direct word.

I usually have a confrontational word. And if y'all were making too much noise, I actually would be confused. I would be wondering if it's cutting through to the heart in the way that it should be. That's true. And so I think if I had a different ministry emphasis, then maybe I would expect more noise. But I actually think some words should warrant silence because it's warranting repentance. It's being like when John the Baptist was teaching, I don't know, hey, shut out by yack. I don't think when John the Baptist was calling people of brutal vipers, people were excited about it.

You know what I'm saying? So I expect it for that reason, too. Three, I respect culture. Yeah. You know, like I remember one of the first times I started. to really start to respect the black space, the white space. Like, I haven't been in Asian spaces a lot or even Latin spaces, but when I went, I taught somewhere and they were not responsive at all.

And it was like, okay, cool. Afterwards, people came up to me and they were recounting everything I said. That's good. And so now when I'm talking to teachers who feel uncomfortable in those types of arenas, I said they may not be responding, but they're listening to everything. Yeah, yeah. So, so, so, and I think we have to be people who are, like, you don't, we like that, but you don't need that.

Yeah, yeah. You don't need that. You don't need it. Now, I will preach different when you talk back. I promise I will. But you shouldn't require it, I think, for the sake of your own humility. Yeah. So, I think all of those effects.

I had that experience, you know, and it humbled me. And I think, you know, like, I had that experience what I saw at this predominantly, you know, white church and I was, I felt like I was saying some good stuff. And it was a line of people to talk to me afterwards. And I was like, man, I think they think I suck. And I got off the stage and they really like, they really were listening and it encouraged me. And so I think it just reshaped, you know, how I thought about teaching in just different church settings. You know what I'm saying? Because I think what we're essentially talking about is just culture. I think a lot of times we think that our culture is the predominant culture or the standard culture, but it's like, no, like God has different people

in different cultures and those different cultures just move and act and think differently, differently. I'm going to have a question, and I'm going to lead it with a statement, which is, I think this is why, especially if the Lord has given you friendships or ministry or access to different kind of cultural experiences, you have to know who you are. Yeah. You really have to know who you are. Because if you don't know who you are, you will shape shift depending on the space you're in. Absolutely.

And so that's why like, you know, when I've had conversations with people and I'm like, how you could do this with the SBC or da da da da da da. How you got? I was like, one, you don't understand. It's a temptation to shape shift everywhere. Yeah. Because I might go into a predominantly black space where everybody looks like me, but I don't hoop.

Yeah. Right. So there's a sense where even I still feel insecure on if my method or if my tone or if my preaching cadence, like obviously still is very much black church. But I can still feel because I can't hoop the way that the preacher before me hooped. Am I? But it's like, not, I'm me. Right? But I can also go into another space where you want to change your tone and change your articulation. And you want to code switch so that you receive acceptance. And I think when you, when you move around in different spaces, a lot, that temptation is more prevalent to do whatever you got to do to be accepted. And that is exhausting and I refuse to do it. And that's why I'm like, no, y'all, y'all, I'm going to be Jackie

everywhere I go. That's good. I'm going to wear dickies if I want to. Yeah. Unless the Lord convinced. Yeah. And that's good. And I can talk about this because me and LaCray, we talked about it on his podcast, I mean, it was a time where LaCray publicly said like, man, I got a problem with President and Jackie going in and out of spaces because he felt like, you know, that was when he was going through his whole deconstruction phase. And we talked about this when I was on this podcast. And one of the things that he said that really blessed me, he was like, the lawyer had to check me. He was like, because when I actually would peer in and to see y'all in the spaces,

one thing that I saw is that y'all never changed. Right. Y'all never switched up. And I think you're right. Like, I think you just kind of have to be who you are. I remember the first time I did a panel with you at the gospel coalition. And ironically, I had these slides on on the gospel coalition stage. And a black woman was like, why you got on a stage with those slides?

I said, because they're comfortable. Yeah. And I said. They want us to look presentable in front of a company. And I said, God didn't save me from my culture, but he saved me for my culture to reach my culture. I'm not going to go on a stage and act like I'm not going to wear bugle boy jeans. Those are nice, though. Yeah, some of them.

I'm talking about the old school Bouguble jeans and little loafer to fit in this environment. It's like, no, you invited Preston. I'm not going to show up like Jake. You know what I'm saying? I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, I was done. Yeah, because I've said this before. When I get on a stage to communicate, it is not just who I, what I say that God is using.

It's who he's saying it through in the sense of my tone he's using my physical body he's using like God is not just using the sentences he's also using my cultural history in how it colors the sentences I'm saying and so to me I think people I think I think I want people to honor

God's hand on how he developed you I want people to honor the, like, you know what I'm saying? And the fact that I came from St. Louis, from a single mother, like, who had a more sharp and direct way of communication, and she still does, and how that plays a part in who, now, just what I say, but who I am, like, God is using all of it, like, all of it. And so I guess for you, has that been interesting for you then to be this black dude from Chicago with a very particular history in apologetic spaces.

Spaces that have not, I think, historically really welcomed cats like you into it. Yeah, yeah. Unless your apologetics, is their apologetic focus. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. I had, you know, a very intense conversation slash debate

with a guy in a, in an, apologetic space on the topics of like race and culture and stuff like that. And I felt like, one of the things that I felt like was I felt like he was trying to talk about my culture from things that he's read. Okay. But, but I had to like gently remind him, like, I've been in your world, but you haven't been in mine. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that there's a level of humility that you should have just on the bank. Not saying, you don't have to think that everything that I'm saying is absolutely right, but just know experientially.

I know, I know what your world looks like. James Bond was it, something like that. It feels like, but you haven't really been in mind, but you telling me all these statistics and stuff, you know. And so I think there has been tension because of that. You know, well, the beautiful thing that I tell people all the time is just because a place is unfamiliar to you holistically. The beautiful thing that I've seen is that God has people everywhere.

And that every time I go into a space, God always has me connecting with two or three people that remain my brothers for life. And I think that's the beautiful thing about the body of Christ, that we can go in a space that might holistically reject us, but those two people, God, want us to meet. You know, and I think that's just, you know, and I think that when we show the spiritual maturity

and show God they were ready to go in these spaces. They were not going to be super offended. And I think you have to know who you are, but you also have to be committed to mission. And so when I went to this particular conference, you know, a couple of weeks ago, and I was telling you, you know, what I was going through, it really blessed me that when I talked to you that morning,

you was like, I prayed for you. And the Lord told me you was, like, the Lord literally told you everything that I was going through at this conference. And this conference was so unlike the conferences that I've been, been to in a lot. last couple of years, it was just so different. And I had a particular set of struggles, but the Lord that morning just reminded me, I have you here for a reason. Yeah. I have you

here on mission. And if you spend most of your time being offended, you're not actually going to be successful. That's good. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that we just have to remind ourselves that when we are submitted to the Lord, sometimes the Lord is going to have you go in spaces that that's not necessarily comfortable for you. But he actually, like, when of the things that I realized that it wasn't comfortable for me, but God actually sent me there to make a lot of people uncomfortable. He wanted me to go and challenge, like, my whole book is about how to tell the truth, the story of our God save me to win hearts and not just arguments. This place is just feel with just people who love academics, who love knowledge. And he was like,

why, like, I know you're uncomfortable. Yeah, you're not here to fellowship. You're here to cut up. Well, I would not send you in a space like this. And so, but also, too, I'm not, I didn't just send you here to rebuke, but I also sing you here to love. That's good. And so I think, you know, like just knowing that God wants us to go in and out of different church denominations or whatever to be a light because he wants his people and more, like,

he doesn't want us to just be amongst each other. Which is the great. That's the great commission. Yeah. Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations. meaning obviously culturally speaking or like we're talking about different ethnic groups and stuff like that but different cultures like a part of disciple making requires us to get outside of our own little silos out of side of our own neighborhoods so that we can make disciples of all

nations so some of us y'all go on mission trips you know what I'm saying my mission trips are conferences of different denominations with different people groups with different frameworks, like that's the mission God has me on in the earth. Now, this is what I want to do. I want to talk about arrogance. I want to talk about arrogance and I want to leave with myself.

That's humble. Yeah, one of the things, yeah, one of the things that throughout the conference that the Lord had to check me on was this. When I, after I talked to you, I was fired up. I was like, I'm on mission.

Yada, yada, yada, or whatever. And then I spoke, the Lord really used it and all the things. But then throughout, the conference, I think the Lord had to just check me and say, just because I sent you here to correct people, I don't want you to start walking in arrogance either. And assuming that everybody here is lofty. That's great. Everybody here is yada, yada, yada. Because just because I sent you here for a particular mission, doesn't mean that it's not people here that you can learn from. That's good.

Right? And so, I like it. Yeah. And so, like after the Lord used me to check, he did some checking to me. That's good. You know what I said? He was a good father. And And so I want to talk about just the arrogance that we can be in and the pride that we can be in. Even when it comes to judging how people in different church groups or church cultures worship, you know, the super charismatic to say, man, they're quiet. They ain't got to oil. And then the reform people can say, man, they do too much. It's all emotionalism. They don't know their Bible.

You know what I'm saying? And it's just we can we can we can all be arrogant even in that. And so just talk about because we worshipped in both. We've worshipped in very, you know, charismatic loud spaces. And we worshipped in what people people say, thank you Jesus. And so talk about that. I would love to hear your opinion. I think Philippians too is important, you know, like have.

this mind in you that was in Christ Jesus who did not count a quality of God a thing to be grasped, but it emptied himself like to not, to ultimately not think too highly of yourself. To always have that mind of Christ when you enter into every space to know like, no, I'm not, I'm actually not that type. Yeah.

But also to have, in the same sense that you need to have a sober, because I won't say low view of yourself. I think you need to have a sober view of yourself, a moderate view of yourself. I think at the same time that you have a sober-minded view of the gifts that you have, the ministry that God has commissioned you to do, the personality, all the stuff,

I do think you need to have a sober and dare I say high view of the Christians you're going to meet. Because if I understand Christianity as these are human beings who are indwelt by the spirit of God, then it means that they always have something to teach me. They always have something to show me.

They always like, I can't go into a space and say, you know, I have no need of you. No, the hand can't actually say that to the foot. That's good. Like, you have something to give me. Even if there are differences, there are things that I can always learn from. And so I think I go into every space with the assumption that there is something here that I can learn about God through the people of God regardless of how different

we might be. That's so good. And I think that's just having a, that's, that's, that's, the word ecclesiology is suitable here. Having a good ecclesiology as it relates to the church, the way the Lord uses the church, how he thinks about the church, the way we should navigate the church, reading things like

Corinthians, Ephesians, like all of that should be in your system and showing up when you show up. Yeah, yeah, that's so good. That is so good. And I think also too, you know, just reminding ourselves that a lot of times when we have that heart posture, it's really not us merely judging people, but it's also us limiting God. We think that God only kind of manifests themselves in ways that we've grown up seeing.

Yeah. And we've grown up like being used to, you know what I'm saying? Because I think, well, I was studying First King some months back or whatever. And Elijah, he, um, he had a very interesting a couple of days where, you know, he's in this particular region in dealing with these people and who are, you know, doing a whole bunch of crazy stuff, worshiping false gods and stuff like that. So Elijah was real, you know, confident about the God that he served. And he was just like, yo, like, I'm going to give y'all an opportunity

to show me the power of y'all gods. So he was like, yeah, just show me what y'all guys can do. And so he sat back and watched. And, you know, it was even sarcastic. It was like, well, your God is running late. Like, he ain't showing up, you know? But then after that, you know what I'm saying? Like, he was like, well, let me show you the power that my God, you know, has. And so God actually showed up on Elijah's behalf.

And he showed up in very big, boisterous ways. Like, he manifested himself loudly, right, amongst the people. But then after that, because, you know, he showed up the people, Bashiba, wanted to kill him. And so he went on the run. And while he was on the run, he goes up to this cave. And in this cave, God kind of appears to them. And I don't want to get the words wrong.

But it says something along the lines of like a soft wind came along. But he wasn't in the wind. You know, and this happened, but God wasn't in the air. But what it's basically saying is God revealed himself in a very subtle, calm way. And I think a lot of times in different church denominations, we think that if it's not loud, it ain't God. Correct. If we ain't yelling, if we ain't a, it ain't God. Right?

But in other settings, we think, you know. If it's not restrained. If it's not restrained. If it lacks emotional, then that's actually more mature. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, if it's emotional, y'all doing too much.

It's emotionalism. It isn't thoughtful. You haven't meditated on the scriptures. you like, and it's like, no, like that's arrogance. Yeah, it is. Because we see that God actually met it. That's preference. That's preference.

And so, but also, too, like, seeing Elijah experience God in two totally different ways shows us that we can also do it too. That's good. That it's possible for you go to go to a church where they ain't hoopering and hollering and yelling in every prayer. And you can actually experience God. And it is also for you to believe that, the, nomination where everybody is silent and meditating and go to a church where people are like

yeah the power god come you know and you can actually experience god there like i think so many times we limit god um and god is he's he's just too big for us to limit him to our cultural experiences yeah i remember i talked to a girl one time um she came up to me at school and was saying how she goes to a church that is on the spectrum where it's a lot of emotional restraint, not a lot of high expression, super theologically dense and rich environment, orderly, you know, stuff like that. But she was wrestling with like, I'm learning God's word here, but I don't experience God's spirit here. Wow.

And so there's just tension between do I stay, do I leave? Wow. You know, and I think a lot of people have experienced that. We've experienced that. What was your advice to her? Did you give her any? Well, the whole time I'm praying. But I think, I think at the end of the day, the question is, what does God want me to do?

Because I don't always think, I'm not convinced that God wants us always to attend churches that match every preference we have for what church should be. You know, the question is, is God being, is the word of God being taught? Okay. Is, are the elders and the people godly? All right. Like, when you look at what church should be in the scriptures, just, just biblically, Jesus, fellowship, worship, repentance, truth, like, all the stuff.

Awesome. So that means now it's a preference problem. Yeah. Is the preference too much for you? to be able to receive from this institution well and consistently, consistently. But the question also might be maybe God has you there because you see things they don't see. You know, your history means that you can pray in directions. Nobody is praying.

So that was my wisdom. It's one, fasting and praying and asking the Lord, do you want me to stay even if they don't fit my preference? That's good. And two, asking the Lord to like praying in the direction of the things that you see that they can grow in. And I think sometimes the Lord, like our experiences in different cultures and in different spaces equips us to be very specific intercessors. That's good. I do.

So you're seeing something that they don't like, you know what I'm saying? Like when I'm at my seminary, there are all kinds of things I'm seeing that they don't see. It's like I ain't going to even name it all. But it's like it makes me I lean into intercessory more than I'm leaning into criticism and complaining. even just to position my heart as somebody that could serve. You did that last year. Not going to say the place you were at, but you came back and you was just very burden

about the things that you experienced at this particular church setting. Oh, man. Yeah, and you came back and you was just like, man, like I think they've lost something. And I think, one, I think God kind of, you know, like showed you that speaks to you, but also, too, because you've been in and out of this space

and you've been in it out of other spaces, you were able to rightfully discern it. And I think that's just, you know, I think we have to practice going in and out of worlds because it doesn't mean that our theological stands or we don't have to stop being unbiblical. We have to, you know, we got to learn what to pick up and what to put down.

But I think that God wants people to go in and out of spaces so that we can, one, be a blessing and also be an encouragement, but also be a challenge, but also to be a prerore for it. And we need to, we honestly, we need to know our Bibles. Yes.

I'm telling you, like, that will color everything because in the same space that I could be in where it might be super theologically academic, you know what I'm saying? I can't say the spirit is, here when the Spirit of God is the one who inspired the scriptures that are being articulated. Yeah. I need to be more specific and saying, no, the Spirit of God is, is he's here. One, he's here. He's here

through his word. And if there are Christians here, he is here. Yes. Yes. He, the presence of God is where Christians are. Now his manifest presence might be quenched in particular ways. because of the pride, because of the arrogance, because of the fear of expressing ourselves in ways that look like the denomination that we don't want to look like. This is so good. Right? So we can't make these general statements. Spirit of God ain't in here.

Don't say that. Be more articulate. The spirit of God is not being expressed in this particular way. So let me pray in the direction so that they can experience the fullness of God and all that he has to offer. But in the same way, there are other churches where, you know, The gifts are very much present and the worship is very much emotive. Yeah.

But, oh, the spirit of God is in this room. How do we know? Yeah. Because the Word of God wasn't even taught accurately. Ooh. There are some spaces where the music made you think the Spirit of God was here when he is actually displeased on the way the Word of God is being handled. You might think that there is a level of freedom in the spirit when there's actually a lack of order.

So I think in both places there is beauty and there are room for... For improvement. Yes. But it's like we can't generalize stuff. But I know that because I know the scriptures. You know what I'm saying? Like, the more you know the Bible, then you can discern and actually like label stuff as it should be laid. Yeah.

And I think a lot of it rests on its truth. Like where his truth is, his spirit will be there also. Yeah. But I do think, you know, a critique to like my... And we're obviously using caricatures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I can see people be like, so you saying where, you know, the gifts are, I'm not saying that. We go to a church where gifts are expressed and the word of God is being taught accurately.

Yeah. I'm saying you can't always think that the loudness and the emotive nature of a service means that the spirit of God is present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just think that, like, for people who think that if it's, if it's, if it's, if it's, If it's loud, if it's charismatic, that God's present isn't there, it's just like, you got to check yourself as well. So I think that we all just have to know that, man, like, it's something that we can learn from both environments. And God can speak to us both, but his truth has to be present. Yeah.

I remember when I was doing Glory conference. And one of Glory's intentions was to bring Black church to different, demographics that might not have experienced it, right? And so I wanted the worship to be gospel. I wanted the, I wanted there to be a kind of jubilant likeness to it all. Like, I wanted it to feel like choir. I even was about to create a video to help people learn how to shout, but I didn't do that. And so, like, the intention literally was to bring my church culture to another cultural experience. While still teaching very theologically. Which is my culture, you know, to love worship, to love, I love when people run around the church.

I love when people speak in tongues with order. I love those expressions of faith. but I also love exegedical teaching, expository teaching. I love, you know, church history. I love the Greek, like, and truthfully, that actually has always been a part of our culture. I think people have made it seem as if black church isn't theological. Black church isn't academic. Black church is like, like we actually are, like Augustine, Turtulian, Martin Luther King, let's be clear.

That's all African men. And not only that, when you look at, when you, like, you can't say Fred Hammond wasn't singing the Bible. And was. He was singing the whole Bible. And was. Right. And so like the gospel artists that we listened to were actually very theological. This man sung the whole book of Psalms. And did.

Right. And so like, yeah. But there was one point when I had started to, I was listened to this podcast from this guy who wrote this book called, I think, I don't actually know what it's called. But it's basically about how God uses, like our bodies are the means of worship. So the lifting of our hands, the stumping of our feet, the opening up of our mouth,

how the body really matters when it comes to our experience of God. And how the pandemic in particular is where we experience the lack of experience from God because we couldn't hug our neighbor. We couldn't touch them. You know what I'm saying? Stuff like that. The point I'm trying to make is he made this point how there are some space where I think it's like an Anglican, I could be wrong,

but where there's moments of like reflection on a text, where it's just quiet. It's just like, you know, it's real simple. And I realized I wasn't creating space for people to experience God in multiple ways because I was so dead set on them only experiencing my culture. Does that make sense? When it should be, how can they best experience God?

Because truly in the Psalms, there is a word that says salah. Salah. And so biblically speaking, there should be room for quiet. Yeah. There should be room for silence. That's good.

There should be room for us to just sit and think. And meditate. You know what I'm? It don't got to be all the stuff. And so I don't, I can't, I'm dumping. But you get what I'm saying? Like, it made me ask the question of, I don't want to just bring culture.

I want to bring Christ. I want to bring him. Yeah. And so there might mean that, this culture actually has something to teach me about how worship can look in a variety of different ways. And what's beautiful, what I hear, everything that you said was so beautiful, because what I hear is you articulating what we actually will experience in heaven. Yes. That's what you're saying. Yes. Because for us to think that every nation and every tongue being represented in heaven,

for you to think that heaven is going to be one big shout fest or for you to think that heaven is going to be one big sailor, it is you deceive yourself. We're going to have moments where all of us are going to feel the needs to just sit in awe and be quiet. It ain't going to be like, get up, he deserves your praise. Shut out. Now, I'm going lean in the direction of going to that corner of the Golden Road, though.

Okay, that's what I'm saying. We can do that. I love you. Because I'm not even, I'm not even, I'm not even. As soon as I hear, as shit that back, as soon as I hear that,

I promise you, I'm going to that way. But what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is. And I feel like, in heaven, we are not going to have our theological circles

to hide behind. That's exactly what I mean. That we have to understand that we will see every nation and every tongue represented it for real. We won't be in tribes. We won't be in tribes. We will just be in heaven. And I think that we will understand God more fully when we are united with other brothers and sisters in Christ who didn't necessarily grow up like us. And so one thing that I'm thankful for is that I've been able to

experience God in multiple different settings. I've experienced the God in our current church. And I've experienced the God in churches where they read out of book. to do worship. The sultan. Yeah, and I've experienced God there, you know. It was a little uncomfortable for me at times, but I still, God was still there. And I think that what you're explaining is, no, we're actually going to experience that in its fullness when we get to glory. And you have to actually be, when you are in a space that is unfamiliar to you, you have to really just take

the time to humble yourself. Because you need humility to even consider the possibility that God can meet you here. But then in that humility, praying that he would. Yeah. You know, like minister to me

and praying for the people. You know, like we get, we get in spaces, I can do it. We get in spaces and we just start, like, ooh, look how she, why she say it like that? Oh, why they do that? And we're so critical

that we're missing on opportunity to pray for people. You know what I'm saying? And to learn from people too. So Lord, like bless her and her family. Lord, preach, teach through the word. Lord, this worship, they'll look flat, you know what I'm saying? But like,

use it to like bless us and lift our spirits. And so you intercede, but then you petition God, speak to me. You know, convict me of sin, encourage me where I needed, change my mind, change my heart. How me connect Like just to have a Godward focus and attention when you're in these spaces,

I think you'll be surprised at what happens. Yeah, that's good. That's good. With that being said, I don't have nothing else to say. I just think that a conversation like this was helpful because I think people will be surprised at how blessed they would be if they went in and out of other circles with an open mind and an open heart and a humble hard. I'm going to say this too, though.

And I know we're wrapping up. But I need us to acknowledge the degree of privilege we have for us to even be having these kinds of hangups. There are places in the world where there isn't a conversation on, oh, why they preach like that, I ain't hang with them, or why they got that kind of music. I ain't doing that. Why, like, when you are desperate for the Lord and you are trying to, like when your community, when outside of your community is death for your faith, who you don't actually have the room

and the freedom to have all of these issues. And I think that's a part of our problem is we got too much privilege. Yeah. Because we have so many churches and we have so many musical options. So many options. That is just like, it's made us, we're spoiled. Yeah. And so I think we need to have in mind.

how our American spoiled framework is not like some of that stuff is not conviction. It's your spoiled. Yeah, yeah. When some, so many Christians around the world, they just, they just got to figure out how I cannot hide my Bible today. I don't care how you preach.

I don't care how you preach. You love the Lord and we need each other. Yeah. I don't care what music you listen to. You love the Lord and we need each other. Like all of that other stuff is dead because we're fighting for our life. That made me think about this. That's how the early church was.

What if it comes a day? where America is persecuted in such a way. I can't wait. Where they take away our churches. I can't wait. Will you just, will you just grateful that you run into another Christian who just say, I love Jesus?

I hope y'all know it's coming. I don't care what administration you think we got. Like, it's coming. Yeah. Because we're, I think one, God is good. Persecution is always the means by which the church grows. So I think we need it. I think for the sake, like, the Lord is coming back.

But I also think our Christianity is just, it ain't narrow way enough. And so I think we have to be positioned where our desperation actually increases. And we still have social equity attached to having the name of Christ in our captions, in our banners, on our cars. But when it comes to the point, like when we were in Sweden, where they told us only 2% of the population was Christian. Therefore, when people said they were Christian, it actually cost them something. I think when we get to that point, it will purify our church.

That's so good. And some of these conversations just won't happen anymore. Hello. So. That being said. Bye y'all. Yeah, peace. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley.

Edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hobb, and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.