With The Perrys - On Leadership, Assignment, and Brokenness with Dr. Crawford Loritts

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Dr. Crawford Loritts joins the Perrys for a conversation about leadership and the qualities that make someone worth following. True leadership is stewardship and sacrifice. Someone’s ability to lead is in direct proportion to their ability to serve. A good leader has conviction, not just knowledge, with wisdom that's the product of experience, not simply exposure to information. And Dr. Loritts talks about anointing being on the person, not their platform or performance, and how gifts are most developed when you focus on character and godliness. Check out Dr. Loritts’ book, Leadership as an Identity: The Four Traits of Those Who Wield Lasting Influence: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Identity-Traits-Lasting-Influence/dp/080242987 Jackie’s Blameless hat: https://boldapparel.shop/products/blameless-hat This Episode is Sponsored By: https://timtebow.com/tree-perry/ — Get your copy of If the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow on Amazon today! Https://fieldofgreens.com — Get 20% off with promo code PERRY - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, Saints and Names, how are you? What's up with y'all? I hope that today is a good day, and if it's not a good day, then I hope it'd become a better one. I like your Blameless hat. Thanks. Who made that hat? You? Well, bold apparel, technically.

Lincoln Show Note. It's a nice hat. Shout out to Blamey's a great album. I appreciate that. And a great concert. Thank you. Jackie just did her first concert, rap concert, in some years. Ever.

It was a time. It was a time. We had a time. It was fun. It was fun. Yeah. Stressful. Exhausting.

I was so proud as your husband and seeing my introverted wife of the day. And you did a little shimmy. Hmm. I was like, look at her dude. A little shimmy moving. You know what I see you? Hmm. I feel uncomfortable.

You feel uncomfortable? A little bit. I reminded you of your little shimmy. Yeah, a little. I said, okay, she's getting out the little shiel a little bit. No, I genuinely prayed for freedom and joy. No, but it was. I think I experienced that.

It was great. It was a great concert. The sound wasn't the greatest. The venue was a little unhelpful. Sound wasn't great to you, but in the house it sounded amazing. Man, that's typically how it goes. Well, you know, leadership as identity. We have with us, Dr. Crawford, Loretz.

How are you, sir? I'm doing well. It's an honor to have you, sir, on the couch. I might call you Brian. Yeah. Because I'll talk to your son more often that I'll talk. talk to you. Both of you guys are brilliant. But, yes, it's an honor to have you on our couch. He's brilliant. I just, my dad would say when he saw his grandkids how well they did, he would

say it skipped a generation. Dr. Laritz is just wise in a really special way. I had a seminary class. I think it was summertime, maybe wintertime. And it was like a week-long intensive on the subject of leadership. And I think one, I think I was coming home all the time processing what I was learning with you. Yeah. Because one, it felt like I was hearing a lot of lived experience mixed with obviously like theological depth, but it also felt like prophetic at moments, which can be rare in seminary spaces where it would be moments where it genuinely felt like the Holy Spirit was speaking through you, which would scare me sometimes. I'm like, I didn't think I would be so provoked and challenged

and encouraged and inspired. And I was sharing with Dr. LaRis, like that class really was a paradigm shit for me when it came to how I understood leadership in just so many ways. I kept putting it on my Instagram live, not my live on my stories. And people kept saying, like, I want to hear the whole class. I'm like, you got to read the book. The whole thing is in the book. And so we just want to have a conversation about leadership as identity and all that you've learned and all that you instruct. This is the book we're referring to leadership as identity. Did you dress like that on purpose? I did not, but it's working. Because it's given. It's giving, intentional, but it wasn't intentional. It's a great book, great cover. When did you, this is a weird question. This is a weird

question. But I guess when did you start or feel called to leadership and how was it like embracing that? Well, you know, looking back over your life, it was more organic than anything else. A lot of it has to do with my personality. I think just growing up, there's some natural things. My dad was a great leader, you know. I was no head of anything, but just a great, great leader. I think, so, you know, just growing up, people tended to gravitate toward, you know, what I was saying or doing or that kind of thing. But it wasn't, I guess in my teen years especially, it took off. I gave my heart to Jesus when I was 13 and a half years old.

And I believe in spiritual gifts. I think everybody, if you're living, you do have the functions and tasks of leadership. That's true. but I think that there's certain gifts. And for whatever reason, the Lord would just orchestrate opportunities and platforms for me to, I saw things and stepped in to exercise them and that kind of thing. So I'd say it all came together when I was in my teen years, and then I began to realize it. And then positions of leadership, I was president of classes in college and things like that.

and that just came. But with it came a warning, though, however, I learned early on that you've got to be careful of orchestrating your own opportunities. You know, the old line that my mother used to say, good meat makes its own gravy. Well, you need to not concentrate on making the gravy. You need to concentrate on being a good piece of meat.

And it's in that, and that's really the development. Your gifts are most developed when you focus on your character and your godliness. Because the anointing is on the person, not on the performance, not on the platform, it's the individual. And I think my walk with God helped me to appreciate that. And some failures along the way,

and I try to do it in my own strength. You know, they say experience ain't always the best teacher, but it is the only school of fool will attend. So, you know, learning that stuff. So, I mean, you didn't ask me all that, but that sounds good. We want to hear everything you have to say. You talked about, you know, giving your life to the Lord when you was 13 and getting opportunities to be leaders when you were younger.

But you talk about some of the leaders that you had that helped develop to you as you grew and how instrumental their leadership was. We know every good leader has to be led, right? Yeah, yeah, Preston, that's a great question. And I feel a huge indebtedness right now at this stage in my life. I look back over my life. I'm the product of people who saw things in me that I didn't see in myself. I mean, my pastor, I went to a tiny church.

I mean, like, good Sunday was like 50 people, 60 people there. My pastor was bi-vocational, but boy, he believed in young people. I started preaching when I was 16 years old because he saw things in me. Now, I wouldn't listen to anything I had to say until I was in my 20s, but he believed in me. And that marked me. And each step along my development, God would send people into my life to help prepare for the next level.

And I think what that did in me, and of course I had seasons in which I battled with, I battled with entitlement and arrogance and this kind of thing. The platform was too big for me and all this stuff. But I think what kept me anchored was realizing that, you know, I'm the extension of the trust.

of other people. And that anchored me a bit. And so I think, you know, the hyper-individualism that's in our culture today is a little sickening. I think, and that creates, that creates an incubator for arrogance that's out of control, just completely out of control. Then you add social media to all of that. Then we all think they're as good as the way God uses us, which is never the truth.

And so other people in my life who nobody knows, but who sacrificed, keeps me a little grounded when I get beside myself. And also, what I'm doing right now is pouring into the next generation. It's a great deal of joy. That's good. That's good. That's good. I think identifying leadership is interesting because I think there has to be some type of

wise metric for what those traits are. Because I think even with me and Preston, I never necessarily saw myself as a leader. I just was me. And I think our, like our pastor Brian, he was probably the first, well, no. Yeah, as soon as I got, yeah, I forgot about that. When I became a Christian at 19, I'm not saying it was wise. They made me the youth leader maybe a. month later. It was just like, I don't actually know what I'm doing, but apparently y'all see

something in me. And then I moved to Chicago and then Brian would put me in these positions that felt too big for me and too large for me, but he saw something in me. And I remember one of the first things that Brian said to me that it stayed with me is that he wanted me to, I was a leader over 35 mentors. And I'm like 24. It was a non-for-profit organization. And he wanted me to interact with them, you know, after like a meeting or something. I was like, I don't want to. And he was like, but that's your job. I was like, I don't want to talk to them.

The meeting is over. And he was like, Jackie, do you know what leadership is? I was like, I don't know. He was like, it means you die first. He was like, so you can't be communicating to them about humility and service and you not do it. I said, now, I didn't know that that was what I signed up for. I thought I signed up to tell people what to do. The story of Easter is the most beautiful story.

ever told, but sometimes because we know it so well, we know that Jesus died and rose and all the things, we just move past it too quick and we forget what it actually cost. So what if this year you slowed down? If the tree could speak invite you to experience the crucifixion from a perspective that no one has ever heard, which is from the cross itself. Written by Tim Tebow, it is beautifully illustrated and every page invite you to pause and reflect and feel the weight of that moment. It's a way to experience Easter differently, intentionally, thoughtfully, and with a fresh perspective. Even if you heard the story a hundred times, even if you heard it twice, this book will help you see it with fresh eyes. What you get from this book will stick with you long after you put it down.

And you'll want to pick it back up year after year as you prepare to celebrate Resurrection Sunday. I personally think that this concept is dope. Seeing the cross and the crucifixure from a different angle, I think would allow us to see things that we never saw before in the text. And so I love this type of personification. And I say kudos to Tim Tebow for writing a book like this. I think the body of Christ needs a new perspective and a fresh perspective. Step inside the story of the crucifixion. Hear the witness and experience Easter like never before with if the tree could speak available on Amazon.

We encourage you to check it out. It's if the tree could speak by Tim Tebow available on Amazon or see the link in the show notes. I say all that to say, what is the metric you use to use? to determine actual leadership gifts, because it can't just be that you're bossy. That's exactly right. But I want to take a step back before that question. Take us back.

I think that this is going to sound crazy because we're talking about leadership, but I actually think we've made too much of leadership, meaning that we focus on leadership as if it's better than other gifts or it's more valuable than other gifts. I think we need to follow the pattern of Jesus and the New Testament, you make disciples and then you appoint leaders. I think the idea is allowing the character to form a bit and seeing the responsiveness to the

Lord in their lives and seeing their desires get realigned. And it's from that that leadership emerges. See, Jackie, they saw something in you when you were 19. he saw something in you. It emerged. And I think that's the reason why it's more art than science. And I tell these people all the time, I think it's a tad bit arrogant for any grad school or seminary,

this kind of thing to put on their, you know, the website or whatever it is that, well, we produce leaders. That's a lie. Nobody's ever produced a leader. Nobody's ever produced a leader. You can identify it. You can help develop it, but you're not going to produce it. it. Wow. God will produce the leadership. And so particularly Christian leadership, it's all

about gifting, anointing, his favor, and opportunity. Now, the way it manifests itself, um, leaders have a tendency toward solution and movement. That, that brand, that is typically solution and movement, uh, keeping things going. They live in the verb position. managers are very important, but their tendency is the orderly implementation of process. How to do something better. Leaders are driven by what and why. What and why. What and why?

And sometimes they can't always articulate the why, but there's this intuitive sense that we ought to or we have to. So looking back, that's what I look for in terms of. People that, you know, maybe want me to mentor them or this kind of thing. I want to see if they're aggressive followers. If they are aggressive followers, meaning that they will make changes to get what they really need or want, that's an indication to me that maybe they have something in them that calls a leadership, yeah. Hmm. That's really good.

Got your wheels turned. Yeah. The what and why. I kind of want to explore that a little bit. Because are you saying that a good leader is not just someone who knows information, but one who has conviction? Absolutely. Preston. I think you just nailed it. And that a leader, leadership in the Bible means nothing apart from assignment. Hmm. You lead for something. Leadership in the Bible is never.

position. Now they're positions of leadership, but the position is defined by clarity. It's defined by clarity. It's the why. And so you lead because you feel something deeply. There's a stewardship that rises up in you. And that sometimes is hard to articulate that this has to be done. Yeah. And so when God calls a Moses, or he calls a Paul, or whatever. Clarity precedes courage. You're courageous for something. You're leading for something.

And so that's the signature of leadership. That's really good. And that's the reason why, if you're a spiritual leader, people are waiting for you to hear from God. Leadership is not just about the stewardship of good ideas, but what needs to be done during this moment in history. Wow.

And so that's what I mean by the what and the why. Sometimes leaders can't always articulate the why up front, but they feel something so deeply that they move with it. That's really good. Sounds like you. Yeah. He and my business. A little bit.

Yeah, this is really good. This is really good. I have so many ways I want to go. My mind is going. I'll say this. So the same pastor that Jackie was just talking about. Shout out to Brian Die. Brian Die.

I think you know Brian Die. Yes. Yeah, Brian Die. They had the legacy conference for all those years in Chicago. We all connected. That same pastor saw some stuff in me, where he put me over the evangelism team of the conference,

and I had to lead this national conference in evangelism, and I was terrified. And one of the reasons why I was terrified of being the evangelistic leader is because this conference was a national conference, and a lot of people at this conference knew way more information than I did, just honestly. I was just like, it's so many brilliant people here. I asked Brian why, why me? Right? And he encouraged me and told me I'm the man for the job. But I want to talk about

the flip side of that, because I think a lot of times in our society, we make anybody leaders who have a communication gift, who know how to exigent scripture, or if they just are communicated, we automatically make them pastors. You know what I'm saying? And so can you talk about that and maybe the dangers or some of the things you see why that's problematic or if that's problematic at all. Yeah, you know, I think the way you phrase the question is the answer to the question too, isn't it? The insight is that, you know, you don't grab a person because they are available or because they want to do something. I can't tell you the number of people that I've taught preaching and some of these seminars as a visiting professor. And some of the, you know, some

of the students who want to be pastors and who want to be preachers haven't been called to preach. They just have a desire to do it. And just to have a desire to do something does not necessarily mean that you're gifted to do it. And so it takes inside, it takes, there's got to be the evidence of fruit. There's got to be the evidence of affirmation from spiritual leaders around you, you know. and I think when you get those things together, then that's when you start giving people platform

and opportunity and this kind of thing. The worst thing in the world is it gives someone with a desire to do something, but they don't have the gifting to do it, a position. At best, they're going to be C-minus at it. At best. But most of the time it's going to be D-minus and F-plus. It's just that.

I think we make too many a sum. about that. And yeah, that's good. What that reminds me of is like, when I've had to curate conferences or experiences, I've made the mistake of putting people in positions that were willing but not able. And it usually came from a place of desperation. Yes. Where there's a lack.

And I'm like, hey, that you love the Lord. You can feel the role. but it complicates things. It makes it worse. And now I've got to have a hard conversation and all the things. I guess how do you, what is the wisdom when you are in a position

where you have to get something done? You don't seem to have the resources to do it. And you got the people raising their hand. But it's like, ah, you know. Yeah, sometimes it all depends what it is. I mean, we've, you know, this sounds, all of this stuff sounds nice and cut and clean on the podcast when we're talking to people.

It's messier than that, right? Yeah. I've planted churches and sometimes, you know, you got to go with what you got. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, you're looking to see what emerges. Mm-hmm. So I wouldn't, Pete, it all depends on what you're asking them to do. Yeah. I mean, if it's some menial task, and I shouldn't say that, that sounds condescending, but it's something that is not, it's, you know, you just have to do it, then it's got to get done.

Yeah. However, if it's a leadership position in which you're in charge of people, there's a gifting that's required that you've got to be careful of. Sometimes it's better to go without than to get someone that's insecure, highly threatened, not gifted, but you give them that platform. Now you've got a problem. You've got a big problem. and because they're going to they're going to lob, you know, a lot of grenades in when you tell them it's time to move on or this kind of thing because it's core to who they are and this is,

that became the surrogate identity and you can't unravel everything. So, you know, that's just the way it happens. He said, surrogate identity. Go ahead. Oh, that's so good. I love the way you phrase things. As word people, as word people, poets and writers, we love that type of stuff. You would have done great on, what was the thing called?

Twitter. Was you on Twitter? Yeah, but never mind. That's a, we can get sidetracking this conversation, I think. You had to get on Twitter too? Did you get off Twitter? You know, I had a problem with, you know, Matt, I got a new phone and they weren't working right. Then I said, I really don't want to be on this anyway, you know.

I'm just saying your words are tweet-terful. I hope y'all are making time for your annual checkups. I hope y'all are going to the doctor, especially you men. hope y'all are getting your labs and your blood work. Why are the men only women too? Because statistically y'all don't go to doctors. That's a good point. That's why y'all die early.

That's a good point. So for us, we have kids. So I prefer if this one and me stay healthy for them, even though people, humans, don't look forward to an annual checkup. I understand I empathize. But what you do before your appointment does matter. So before your next checkup, you could just make one health change that your doctor would notice.

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And so this is the reason why I think field of greens is so important and why I use it because when you need that vegetable intake, it's so easy to put it in a cup and drink all of the stuff that you need for your body to stay healthy. So going to your next physical, your next checkup, your next labs with confidence, one scoop, once a day, done. Make field of greens your one smart change this year. You can check out the university study and get 20% off at fieldagreins.com promo code Perry. That's field of greens.com promo code Perry.

Yeah, well, speaking of, speaking of words, in your book, you have this alliteration that I like. It's learning, leaving. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Break that down. Yeah. So, now this is the, this is the upgraded, what do you call that when you? Expanded edition. Yeah, yeah, whatever. I felt like I needed to help, it would be helpful for us this, particularly if you're in that 20 to 40 year segment in your life, it's good to stand back and look at your life. I think all of life, particularly in ministry, but all of life can be viewed to the lens of three 20 year periods.

Now, I'm nervous saying that right now because if you know me, I'm averse to typecasting people. I think, you know, you end up with, then you get this self-fulfilled prophecy and stuff and, you know, not, but, but I do think this is fairly accurate. And from 20 to 40 is that season of learning. And I don't mean that God's not using you in a very significant way. He is. I think of, you know, I had all kinds of leadership positions when I was in my 20s and 30s and what have you. However, the thing that you have to, you have to remember, it's during that time that most of us are obsessed with self-actualization. Who am I, who am I, who am I, who am I, who am I, who am I, who am I, who am I, who am I, who am I, this kind of thing. And in recent years, there's a little bit of complication that's layered with that, too, with social media and with Google and all of that stuff. I mean, you know, you can Google anything and you can make the dastardly assumption that exposure is the same thing as experience. And because you have this voluminous amount of information just flying through your hair. head you can figure it all out. You make the, and it rolls off your tongue, you actually think that you have vicariously

experienced everything you know as a false sense of wisdom. And whereas, you know, you can Google knowledge, but you can't Google wisdom. Wisdom is the product of an endurance ride. And the most important lesson between 20 to 40 is to finish something. To finish something. To face hard. because hard produces resilience. Hard tests your knowledge and translates that into wisdom.

And you can't run from it. That's good. You've got to embrace it. Then when you hit around the, you know, again, I don't want to type case. You're in your late 20s and, I mean, the late 30s, around 40-ish. You wake up one morning, you look at it out of the mirror and say, you know, I've gotten a snot knocked out of me, but I'm still standing. You know, I've got some bruises and knocks and this kind of thing. And your decisions begin to morph into a nuanced wisdom.

You're not as brittle and frail as you used to be. There's a delightful toughness that is set in. And I mean it that way, a delightful toughness. You did it again. Delightful toughness. Yeah, that has set in. And then there also what should have happened or should have happened, or should happen,

should have happened in your 20 to 40, is that you develop the healthy distance between how God uses you and your personhood. In other words, you don't take everything personally. And so it's at this time, I call that the leveraging season of your life. You tend to be more fruitful. Now, the danger, however, during that, time, the danger is that you can start, you know how to do things. If you're a preacher,

you've learned how to package your message, you've learned how to communicate, you learn what works and all of this other kind of stuff, you're, you're, you can get sucked back into thinking that you are what you do. And that can create some problems there. You got to watch your, you can make assumptions about your marriage and you can get married to what you're all about and all of that stuff and there are landmines that you have to walk through there. And then, you know, then when you start getting your late 50s or so around 60, you realize you got more out of the rearview mirror than you do in front of you, right? And you should, you should make a delightful shift into legacy building in terms of, you know what's noble. By that point, you know the difference between a trend and a fad. You know, you know the difference between, and you understand that the rudderless pursuit of relevance will make you ill-relevant.

but what makes you enduringly relevant is a passion for the noble. What was right 2,000 years ago and what will be right when the wardrobe changes. He's talking about my son, Brian, you know, I just remember this. Forgive my little ADD here, but it does relate, I think. Brian, I, you know, I'm older now, right? You know, I'm 76, and so I still get asked to speak at younger stuff. And I, you know, I'd say to my sister. You always have a passion.

Yeah, I said to my son, did these people know how old I am? My hole is dirt, man. So there for a while, a couple of years ago I was asking, Brian said, I don't even know what to wear anymore. You know, what do I wear? I said, you know, I can't be wearing no skinny jeans. You know, some things you just can't unsee, right? I can't do that. He got so tired of me asking him.

So one day I called and said, Brian, you know, I've got this thing they want me to speak at. What do I wear? He said, Dad, stop. Just stop it. Look, man, you're old. just do you and they'll understand. What he was saying was, it ain't the package, it's the content.

And that's what happens when you get close to, it should happen when you get close to 60. But the worst thing in the world is to see older dudes holding on to something that they have to let go. They ought to let go joyfully and turn around and become cheerleaders for the next generation.

That's good. to help them and give them standing ovations, put your arm around them, open doors for them, stop competing with them, and let them be who they need to be. So I wrote those, but I put that in the book to say, okay, there are seasons of your life and you just have to learn how to adjust to those seasons. And by the way, that also is a key to effective leadership. Leadership is about change. If you do not change, you'll kill what you're leading.

Wow. And know how to adapt to the change. That's exactly right. Yeah. And understanding when your season is up. Yeah. That's good. That's real good.

I think one of a really useful frame you offer in these discussions, and even I've watched you have sermons about it that are independent from the leadership conversation, but just about brokenness. Yeah. Because I imagine that between 20 and 70 and on, there are seasons of brokenness. Can you talk to us about that? Oh, yeah. You have to embrace the reality that you need holy handicaps to keep you dependent upon God.

You have to. God does not do double billing. He does not exist to pad your resume, to sustain your brand, or whatever, it's all about him. And so he has to send you through these seasons of brokenness where, I hope I'm not misunderstood here, where desperation becomes a delightful friend. I didn't say despair. Despair is hopelessness.

Desperation is a wonderful sense of God neediness. But you only learn that in the darkness. we had a daughter that died and I mean there's a two-year season and early on in our marriage all this stuff just went wrong and the pain that was there

and yet out of those two years there's some defining convictions that God gave caring of myself and where where needing God was not a hobby it was your existence It was your existence. And so brokenness, I don't mean woundedness, by the way.

And by the way, let me just make the distinction. And you heard me in a class talk about that. I think we pass off woundedness as brokenness. And that is not biblical brokenness. Woundedness is unhealthy. Yeah. You know, you can be wounded without having been broken, but you can't be broken without having been wounded.

wounded people have a tendency to celebrate the hurt and the pain and they want everybody to know that they've been hurt and their pain and they sanitize that by saying they're wounded that they're broken and this kind of thing well if you are the thesis of that then you have not been broken brokenness they've been wounded but they celebrate how God has met them at their point of pain it's not a statement of perfection, you may still wrestle with the pain. But the subject of the sentence is God. Yeah.

It's not you. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. I mean, I want to lean into the desperation of it all, you know, because even we just had a conversation with Matt Chandler and just talking about how it is the difficulties. It is the hardships. But it does seem like brokenness can be.

It's not like, I don't know how to say it. Like it can be an intense season. Yes. Where it is, how does somebody learn to not fight against it when they're in it? I know this is a circular response. You learn how not to fight against it by fighting against it and losing. I got it. I picked up what you put down.

By being frustrated. Frustrated to the point where you say I yield. I yell. You know, and you got to, you got to trust God. Yeah. In the moment. In the moment. Each step of the way.

And, you know, and God has his, I mean, he's got his eye on the clock and his hand on the thermostat. He knows how much, but he, he's got to get through with you in this one season. You've got to learn some things. and you don't try to bail yourself out prematurely. Don't try to name and claim yourself out of the situation. You've got to stay there and trust that God's going to deliver you. You have to learn how to enjoy God in that moment. It's a cliche.

But I actually think that in our everything happens like that culture, we have to really embrace the reality that, faith has three dimensions. That God will deliver us from it. He'll deliver us through it. But sometimes he won't change the circumstances, but deliver us in it. But you've got to be okay with whatever God wants to do. And it's when you're at that point, that's when it, that's when there's a sense of, there's a sense, okay, this is becoming.

me. That the background music of my heart and life is I need thee or I need thee every hour I need thee

and somebody said they asked me an awful lot about you know do you ever struggle with

your personal devotional life and I said wow yeah I mean I you know you struggle with a lot of stuff

I got a lot I got late in ADD my wife says sometimes I ain't so latent but you know you go back

and forth but I had to tell you the older I get the less I struggle with that. That's not a statement of perfection. It's a statement of the reality of what I have been through that I know, I know, I know, I know that I'll be a royal screw up and that I need him every hour. I can't, I can't make it without his word. I can't make it without talking to him, that I'm just a quarter inch away from stupid in any given moment. And once

that becomes not just a cliche, but a heart reality. That's when brokenness has transitioned to a delightful gift of desperation. Wow. That's good. Wow. Oh, man. So you got my brain going. I guess still in this vein of brokenness, I've been reading it a lot about Peter because I see myself in him a lot.

my old disciple of Brian Dice, obviously I'll remind him of Peter. But like I've been seeing myself a lot in Peter. And just reading John 21, John 2019, like all of these scriptures about Peter, later on in Jesus' earthly ministry when he was about to die, Peter made some bold claims, right? We all know, like when Jesus said, y'all all fall away from me. And Peter was like, no, no, Jesus, I'll follow you both to prison and to the grave, if they all fall away, I would never fall away.

And I started to think about these bold claims that Peter made. And I started to ask myself like, why? And one of the things, the text doesn't say this, but one of the things I did think about as it relates to Peter, because Peter was a leader, maybe he felt some type of obligation to be strong and not to be weak, right? Not to show brokenness or weakness. And I think a lot of times as leaders,

that can be a scary thing for us to show weakness to the people there, because Peter was a leader amongst the disciples, right? In a sense. And so can you speak to the leader out there who feels this pressure to not necessarily be perfect, but not to, it's almost scary for them to be broken because they feel like there's obligation to be strong for the people around them, if that makes sense. You know, Preston, that's an intriguing insight you have about Peter. I never quite thought of it that way.

Actually, Peter's natural leadership, natural leadership bent, caused him to make the right statement without the right dependence. He was depending upon himself. But what he said was right. I mean, it was a truthful thing that he said. It was, well, it was an aspirational statement that he made. But he didn't have what it took to really. really sustained that. Yeah. And this rabbi just happened to be God who knew his heart more than he knew his own. That's exactly right. That's exactly. Yeah. Which, you ought to preach a message on that, man.

You got one. Yeah. I just wrote a sermon on it. Is that right? Well, I need to listen to that, brother. That'll work. It might end up in a classroom someplace. But, you know, I think you're absolutely right. And that's the reason why, particularly those of us who have both natural and personality, natural tendencies toward leadership. Sometimes, we're a little bit more self-reliant

than we should be. Because we can make accurate observations and this kind of thing, but who are you really trusting? Yeah. Who you really trust? And it's not sustainable. And that's the reason why when Peter gets,

God, Jesus puts him back together. He puts them back together, Peter now has what he needs to die for the Savior. Yeah, yeah. And that's where our strength is. You know, that's what it's all about. So, yeah, I mean, that's an amazing observation.

Yeah. But again, you know, there's another thing with Peter, too. I think sometimes our boasting is more of a reaction to our fear. Break that down. Well, as soon as he denies Jesus, I mean, as soon as he makes that statement, he denies Jesus. No, only does he denies Jesus, he throws the disciples under the bus. I'm not one of them. And not only that, he throws his heritage under the bus.

I'm not a Galilean. No, you didn't see me down there. Yeah. I mean, he is scared spitless. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So empty claims without substance, without. without a connectedness.

And so that fear. But, you know, I often make this observation that fear is necessary even for godliness. It's not the absence of fear. It's a direction of your fear. If you fear God more than you do people, you always come out courageous. But if you fear people, you're going to make bogus statements. You're in cave every single time, ultimately speaking. So, I don't know how that's a bunny trail.

But, yeah. You're forcing me to look at Peter's life here. That's good. That's good. You have more? Yeah, I mean, you can go. No, I kind of was intrigued by that. You mentioned in just how I imagine just as husbands and as leaders, as fathers,

that that comes with some level of pressure. It does. And so I guess I kind of want to hear from how y'all process that. this man got a mountain of wisdom you know if my wife is here she would say the most secure she feels ever

is when she sees me on my knees with an open Bible perfection is not the goal but again it gets back to this whole dependence thing right and I think as fathers as husbands and stuff you know don't don't get me wrong I mean And, you know, you, I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty strong and pretty resilient about criticisms and things like that. You know, you don't pass a whole bunch of people without

having a little bit of thick skin and all of that. But anything happening to do with my wife and my kids, you got my attention. Oh, my grandkids now, you got my attention, right? I typically, you know, don't. Don't play them games. No, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I remember once I'm a guy that was working on my team in another situation. My wife was over some type of she has great administrative abilities and this kind of

she was over, there's a national conference we were doing something. He was reporting to her while he came to my office and after our meeting and he said, Crawford, I got a problem with your wife. I said, no, you need to rephrase that. That's a crazy way to introduce it. You need to rephrase that because you got a problem

with her, you got a problem with me. You don't want to have problem with me. But I think we feel, yeah, that's right. We feel those, we feel that. Yeah. We feel that. And I think appropriately so. But it's what we do with those feelings.

If it drives us to our knees, to drives us to go back to the scriptures, if it drives us to an appropriate sense of biblical courage and dependence upon the spirit of God to to lovingly lead our wives and to lovingly model the destination for our kids and to step into those hard spaces, then that's a blessing. Yeah. But if you're not depending upon God, then you're going to be a carnal mess. You're going to melt down. You're not going to be.

You're going to go back to, you know, you're going to inflate the dysfunction even in our backgrounds and this kind of thing. You're going to be reacting to one another and what have you. But it's a place of dependence. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's how I, I mean, I handled the pressure there. And then there constant communication, you know, there.

we're not the fourth members of the Trinity, man, and we're imperfect people. Yeah, yeah, for sure. If I'm just being honest, I mean, when I first got married, I talked about this before in our podcast. I just so desperately wanted to be a good leader. I pushed Jackie too much. I pushed myself too much. I was very hard on myself.

And when I started to learn to trust in the Lord, I think the Lord started to grow me in my leadership. And I thought, you know, early on, I was like, okay, I got over that hump. Now I could just live my life. But what I've learned, but what I've learned is even in different seasons of marriage, you're going to have to relearn how to be a leader in a whole different way. When your daughter gets older and it's like I have to learn how to lead you in a whole different way. I have to learn patience in a whole different way.

And so it's just crazy how the Lord kind of orchestrates this life for you to have that you just always have to be dependent. It's like I always have to be dependent in order to lead. Like it's not like you learn one thing and it helps you for the rest of your life. It's like an ongoing, consistent consistency in learning, you know, how to be dependent on the Lord. And it can be frustrated, but it's truthful.

And that's what you bring to the table, right? I mean, it's this ongoing process, you know. It's just kind of like, I mean, I'm an empty, we're empty nesters now. So, you know, even now, I mean, but she learned how to be more gracious. I mean, the stuff that my wife used to try to take me on over, she just looks at me and says, that's just Crawford being Crawford and goes on about, you know, or whatever. But never underestimate the power of humility and the courage to say I'm wrong.

Yeah. And the power of your repentance. I was listening to my son, like Brian, on a podcast. He, well, he wrote a book about my impact on his life. And there's another story. He writes his book. His mother knew that he was writing a book. And I didn't know he was writing a book.

And so then the publisher calls me and asks me to write the floor to the book. I said, what's the book about? He said, well, it's about your impact on Brian. I said, it's about me and you want me to write the floor. It's a little self-serving. I want to say, how great thou art. I mean, it's kind of. And so I called that knucklehead.

I said, man, I don't know you right now. I don't know what stories you told in this book. First of all, so I had to read the whole thing. So he was being interviewed about this book. And when I was, I heard him say this, I started to weep. He said, I remember my dad's apologies more than I do his sins. And I think as fathers and as men, that's kind of intuitive for us. but I think the transparency of modeling to your family

what you do when you screw up your own sense of God neediness God works from weakness to strength not from strength to strength and I think it's the acknowledging of that I know that's counterintuitive but it's the acknowledging of that that creates a bond. Now, you don't excuse it.

You know, I mean, you know, kids just say, well, dad, dad, I'm sorry, so I don't need to get a spanking. No, no, you need to remember this, and I appreciate your apology. But, you know, it's moving on down the road. Yeah. Yeah, I've had to learn that as well, because I think it's not to throw my dad out of the bus, but I didn't really get no apologies from him, you know. I've tried to kind of correct that in my father.

Because I think when we think about the gospel, how God condescended to become a man to relate to our humanity, I think that's what apologizing does. And I think that's probably why he remembered it because he saw your humanity. And like a lot of times when we're leaders, we forget that our leaders are also human. And so because we forget they are human, I think it's hard for us to relate to them. and to, like, for us even to empathize with them or be on a saying, like, for that connection to happen. And I think it's something beautiful that happens when a leader apologizes because it's a leader

coming down and kind of meeting where you, where you are. Like, I'm a leader, but I'm still human as well. And so I think it's great for a connection. I also want to say, though, too, that apologies are meant to be the gateway to repentance. And to just apologize without making the adjustment to change is not only disingenuous, it's hypocritical and becomes, I mean, I've, you know, we've all seen people say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it's just to get you off my back or whatever. But I think it's as long as that's anchored in what we're doing and it becomes a gateway of changing.

And that's why God gets his family, right? He gives us family as a primary means of sanctification. Yeah. To make us holy. Yeah. And conflict, this sounds crazy, but conflict can be a gift from God, depending on how you respond to it, what you do with it, and this kind of thing. And if it causes us to keep moving. So, yeah.

Have there ever been, oh, you had a question. Have there ever been seasons in your life where you was just like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to be a leader. Oh, yeah. And like, what does that look like? Because leadership can be exhausting. Yes. It can be, it can wear on your heart. Yep. To be quite frank, you could just feel abused. Absolutely. And so speak to the people who feel like I've been a leader and I've just, like, I just feel like God just want me to be beat up all day. Like, yeah, I mean, I, I, I, yes. I mean, yes, at times with I didn't want to be a father. Yeah, especially knucklehead teenagers, man.

So, you know, well, you know, lost your mind. I mean, it's kind of all this. I can tell you stories. I mean, at times in which, you know, season, which Karen didn't like me too much. I didn't like her too much. We love each other, but, you know, so I don't, this Pollyanna thing, and you look at all the great leaders, there are seasons in which they were catching it, Jack. I mean, you know, Paul getting the crap beat out of him, people turning on him.

You know, Moses, all that stuff. I mean, Moses striking the rock instead of speaking to the rock. And I thought, you know, every time I read that, I said, God, man, that's a little cold blood, man. Because I'd have done some crazy stuff with these people a long time ago. Yeah. So that's all a part of it. In fact, really biblical leadership really demonstrates itself sometimes just. that you stick around long enough to stick.

And there's not affirmation there. None of that stuff. It's hard. It's just difficult. So, yeah, but that's part of it. Yeah. That's a part. You know, people will give you awards for what you accomplished, right?

They'll give you award to me for, they'll give you award, they'll give you award, and stand, ovation, all that kind of stuff. They'll give you. But they only truly honor you. Think about this for what you sacrifice. sacrifice. They only truly honor you for what you sacrifice. And I think sacrifice and leadership go together. They really do. Because you have, by the grace of God, prove that you're worth following. You know, my dad, my dad, you know, he showed up, man. He showed up, man.

Every day. He worked, the hardest working dude ever in my life. And at the end of his life, I mean, near the end of life, he would be sitting on the front porch. They'd retired to Virginia, got the big old house with his driver on poison. And we'd have his grandchildren there and all this. You know what thing he talked about, he talked about the privilege of having been able to work, provide for his family, to buy your daddy his first car. He talked about that. It was a badge of honor for his endurance.

And that's that's the honor we get. It's a sweet thing to press through and not quit. And that's, you know, and to me that's the essence of leadership. Wow. What, what comes across, I think even in this exchange, is how Christ-like leadership looks as opposed to, I think, the world's definition of leadership, which is conquer. dominate control, rather than serve, die, sacrifice, you know?

And so it seems as if even in this discussion, I hear this is what Jesus did. Yeah, yeah, Jackie. And it's, see, leadership in the Bible is fueled and driven by a radical faithfulness. Yeah. Faithfulness is its own marketing strategy, its own brand.

And it's not the, It's not that you're trying to compete with anybody. It's not about market share. It's not about this or that. It's about doing the best you possibly can for the grace of God, for him and the people that you serve. In fact, I say this in the book, you know, your credibility to lead is in direct proportion to your ability to serve. And leaders do have power. But the power is not cul-de-sac.

You have power, and the reason why you have power, your power is given to remove barriers and hindrances from the people that you're serving for them to be everything that they possibly can be. Your power is given to make sure you identify the banks of the river what is true and what is right, and you protect them from the wolves. Yeah.

Well, that's why the power is given. It's never about you. Yeah. And a leader is driven by the reality that what God has for me, no border being can take from me, so I don't need to compete nor compare. Yeah. I just make it do what it do.

You know? You said it's never about you, but through the years, how, as a leader, how have you cope with failure? Oh, my gosh. Don't like to fail, you know. But it's a part of it. It's a part of it. without failure you ride too high in the water

failure is necessary and I you know you learn I tell you I can give you chapter and verses I remember this conference where we didn't the numbers didn't show up and I had to raise a whole bunch of money after the conference was over and all of this kind of stuff

and you know and I had a little string of successes and stuff and you know you kind of get used to stuff and then all of a sudden you get this oops. But you own it. You don't make excuses for it. Failure is the opportunity for Christ-like character to shine forth. And it's the opportunity to say to yourself, okay, it's not about me.

I made some bad choices and some bad mistakes here. I own it. I own it. And I think coping with failure has to do with not running from it, not hiding from it, not excusing it, not yeah, but, yeah, but, or he did or whatever. True leaders own the stuff. In fact, to be honest with you, true leaders will own the failures of the other people and protect them. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

I got more questions, but. I just want to ask, in your experience, I guess what do you think is the unique quality present within a woman that's a leader? Just because women, we're built different. And so our leadership should look different. Wow. This is when I wish Karen was here because she's a leader, you know. I mean, which has made our life in those early years pretty interesting. Tell us about it.

Yeah, she ain't passive, brother, you know. Neither is this one. I know, man. It's like, you know, this young dude just said when I was at the church, we had this residence program, these guys who come after a seminar, it spent several months with it. They would say, Dr. Larissa, your wife ever give you honest feedback? I said, you have no idea. So, you know, but I think it is, if God's called your wife to lead or called a woman to lead,

she needs to be in a context of which that is served and empowered. And I think women who are in leadership, they bring, they bring, my wife brings an intuitive sense that I don't always have that I've learned to trust. She brings an intuitive sense. She brings a certain high-level how-to that I don't always have. And so it's standing back and encouraging that

and not being intimidated by it that I would say. And I would say that, like anything else, just because she's a woman doesn't mean. I think the ability to ask God to show you the arena and the assignments that you have. And then at the same time being as, you know, as a husband, you know, I view my role as, you know, helping to translate that vision of reality. That we are, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we're one. And that oneness means, not just oneness in terms of, you know, sexual unity and who we are

here, but oneness in terms of calling, that it's not a competition, but a completion. Mm. And understanding that, but then, you know, I open to understand seasons of life and all that. Yeah. So, I don't know if I answer the question. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a competition. It's a dance.

Me and Preston are learning still how to navigate. Because we had our anniversary, what was that two weeks ago? And we were at Disney World. And we were, he was just talking about, you know, male leadership and how a lot of men have just grown weary with leading their wives. And I was asking the question, do you think that there's a different kind of weariness when you're leading a leader, you know, because I have a temperament that is different

than someone who just says yes easily. And so I just think it's an interesting discussion. Yes, it definitely interesting. I think it requires constant communication. Yeah. Yeah. It does. It does require constant communication.

It requires navigating some things. It requires understanding different personalities. So, you know, Karen was when we're working, together and doing projects and this kind of thing. You know, I got in trouble in the evening. I said, look, we lay down and she wanted to continue to talk about this thing and that thing. So I said, I don't go to bed with people I work with.

That wasn't a good thing to say that evening. Yeah, I said it wrong. I'll be putting my foot in my mouth. I was, oh, yeah, that was bad. Yes, it was bad for me. It was. I didn't know. But I think it takes just profound humility to recognize that even if I'm a leader in a particular sphere, my dignity as a woman isn't threatened by his leadership. And I think that's the wrestle is, you know, recognizing that God does have a order and that there is safety and wisdom and submission.

And I think having a man who loves you and cares for you and wants to see you flourish gives you room and space to even wrestle out loud. Love you, Bucco. He's seasons of brokenness. He's changing me. Ms. Luritz, speak to the temptation one leader might have to feel like they're not a good leader when the people around are not following. Oh, yeah. One of the things, Preston, I'm glad you raised that, one of the cliches that I've been hearing, I've been hearing for over the last few years that, you know, the proof of leadership is followership. You know, I suppose that's true. It all depends if you're out in the marketplace and head of some corporation and this kind of thing, and you're not hitting your numbers and what have you. Yeah. That ain't true biblically. Yeah.

that is absolutely categorically not true biblically yeah in fact the lion's share of leaders near the end of their lives their followers dissipated yeah wow that's true they left yeah i mean paul's dying not only is in jail dying man but these dudes are pimping off his platform on they're just you know all this i mean just so so you you got to be careful moral leadership is not necessarily um the the measure of moral leadership and proof of moral leadership is not necessarily visible fruitfulness. Yeah, that's so good. And I might pick your brain about this because I've been obsessing over this for the last couple of weeks because my next resource, my next book is on biblical manhood. And I don't know if you know, but in our society right now, especially on social media, there's this new ideology or this new framework that a lot of these secular platforms, these men-empowering podcasts, kind of teach this idea that if you do X, Y, Z, women will, the right type of woman will automatically fall in line. Almost kind of treats male leadership like this.

Something like a math equation. Yeah, like a math equation or like this magical potion. And if you're not this type of man, you're not this type of man, that's the reason why women are not responding to you in this particular way. And as if we're not, you know, complex, nuanced human beings. Yeah, well, see, that's pragmatism going to seed right there. It's just like it's a quid pro quo kind of thing. You know, leadership in the Bible, by the way, is prophetic and incarnational. It's prophetic and incarnational, meaning that a leader is the portrait of the desired destination at which all

things need to arrive. Write it down. That is leadership in the Bible. It is not necessarily some little scientific process. Can you say it one more time? Leadership in the Bible is prophetic. It's the destination at which others need to arrive. And so it's incarnational.

It's the aspiration to be that. And I would argue, I would argue that to be created in the image of God, let us make man in our image. There is an incarnational aspect to the Imago day. Wow. And so as a leader, I'm the portrait of the destination. I aspire to be. Now, I'm not perfect or this kind of thing.

That's why I'm depending upon God. So it's not just some little quid pro quo thing. It's adjusting to everything that God gives me to steward. And it's empowering the people around me. And if you want somebody to bleed, then you got a hemorrhage, Jack. I mean, this is the reason why leadership is courageous. You know, if you don't want to lead, just get out of the way. Yeah, wow.

But you own this thing, man. Yeah. I mean, that's, you own it. And to me, that's true godly manhood. This other stuff, I mean, yeah. I mean, a leader is not the loudest person in the room. them, but the leader's the one who's willing to pay whatever price necessary for his family or others to be what they need to be.

Yeah, yeah. They'll do whatever they have to do. That's good. Not forcing people. Leadership is not, what I hear you saying is leadership is not forcing people to go to a particular destination, but it's showing them that there is a destination, and this is how we get to it. That's right. And see, you are benchmarking your kids, man.

I tell me you all the time they say, I don't want to be, no. I ain't ended leaving no legacy. I said, that's a stupid thing to say. You're going to leave one. Regardless. Yeah, you're going to leave one. I mean, if you're breathing, you're going to leave one. The issue is what kind?

And godly parents, you cannot determine how your kids are going to turn out. I mean, they quote proverbs all you want to return child the way goes, oh, she'll be a part of the number one, it's a proverb, not a promise, right? So under most likely circumstances, generally speaking, this probably will happen, but it's no guarantee. And that, but in the Hebrew there, it's also about proclivities. And so you can't guarantee, but what you can do, you can be the model of the destination. You can set the atmosphere in your home, and you can set the table. That's what, that, and that's what benchmarks the future.

And I used to tell our kids all the time, say, y'all go out here and make some stupid decisions you want to, but don't lay on some Christian counselors' counsel. I didn't know. You're going to be an informed center. That's good. Yeah, bro. That's hilarious. That's good.

I think we probably, because my mom, if y'all saw me text, it's because my mom was asking who picking up the kids. So she's going to pick up half of them. I got to pick up the rest. So we got to wrap up. It's real life over here. Yeah. But one thing you've communicated before that is really stuck with me

and just kind of been like a framework is the idea of uncommon communion. Oh, yeah. and how I've kind of used it to encourage people about their limitations a lot of times because people will come and say, hey, God has given me vision for this and God has told me to do this, but I don't feel adequate. I don't feel this. I don't feel that. And I'm like, great. That's awesome. And I quote you because one thing Dr. Lurit says is that God will give you assignments that you don't necessarily have all the resources to fulfill to accelerate your own sanctification. That's exactly right.

Did I say it good? You said it. Excellent. Yeah, it's in my spirit and my heart. And so can you talk about that? Yeah. So, listen, there's no such thing as wasted material when it comes to God. Okay.

When he gives us an assignment to do, there are at least these three transformative things that are taking place. Number one, the assignment is going to be accomplished. So that's a miracle. Number two, the people involved in seeing it happen, their hearts are transformed. But guess what? The leader is changed. So there's always a gap between what God calls you to do so that you have to press into God to get the resources to translate into reality what he's called you to be about. And so the point is, so on your way to doing something, you become something.

And so you shouldn't look at the assignment as a competitor to your time or an anchor. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. People get burnt out, not necessarily because they're doing too much. You can't, and that can be the case, but not necessarily because they're doing too much, but because they're doing what God called them to do the wrong way. And the self-reliance. But it's the spirit of God that gives you the existential. insights and

bridges the gaps and gives you what you need. So your inadequacy is a good thing. Yes. It's a good thing as long as it doesn't paralyze you. As long as it fuels desperation for God, it's a healthy thing. That's good. Yeah. Wow. I think that's just a good word for everybody because I think

we want to feel competent before we obey. And oftentimes that's just not going to be a reality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. You got more? I know you got to pick up the kids. I'm going to hit you on my off time because I need some, I need some more of his wisdom. Well, I need this Peter thing now. I need to find out how to get that from you.

You know, my sermon, I just wrote a sermon on John 21, Peter's Restoration. And I might just pick your brain because I want to add to it and kind of tweak it. I've only taught it once. Yeah. Yeah. It's been an honor, man. Thank you, Dr. Leritz. Thank you.

Show the book one last time. There you go. Leadership as an identity by Crawford-Loritz. Great resource go out and get it. You got a good name. That's one of them resume names right there. If I could just lead y'all with anything, pray for, Crawford-Lor-Rits is a brilliant guy,

him and his son, Brian Luritz, they're brilliant guys. If you just pray for them about one thing, they both kind of act like LeBron James. It's not the greatest player of this generation. That's the only thing I feel like the Lord got to correct them in. in this stage of life. And so just pray that they get deliverance in that area. But other than that, keep serving the Lord.

Thank you. And my grandchildren, thank you for selling the book. Bye, y'all. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Libley.

Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.