With The Perrys - Part 1: Dating After 30, Singleness, and Other Questions Answered

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

No one is really talking about what it’s like to be single in your 30s, or after you’re divorced or widowed, but it’s time to have a mature conversation about it. The Perrys are joined by two friends – Ebenezer and Megan – to talk about their separate experiences.  Ebenezer Endiryas is a single pastor who longs to be married one day, and Megan Ashley is a mom of three who was married for 14 years prior to her divorce. Both call themselves hopeless romantics, though they each now have a healthier understanding of kingdom-minded marriage and the sanctification it brings. Jackie, Preston, Megan, and Ebenezer discuss affection and intimacy, why it’s important to have realistic expectations when you marry a sinner, and what dating looks like today when more people are meeting online than in community together.  This is just the first half of a two-part conversation. Be sure to tune in to the September 1 episode for even more on this discussion.  Scripture references: 2 Samuel 11 Connect with Ebenezer:  Ebenezer's Instagram Shaping The Culture's Instagram Shaping The Culture Podcast Connect with Megan: Instagram YouTube In Totality Podcast   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello? What's up, Beth? How are you? Shilling, chilling like a villain. I hope not. You should want to be the hero. It's a hood term, man. You're not in the hood.

You were in the forest. The hood is still in me. It shouldn't be. You need to be a new person. No. God didn't save me from my culture. You saved me for my culture. To reach my culture.

What book was that? I still got some hood in me. What book was that? It's the book of Preston Berry. I thought that was in How to Tell the Truth. I did put that in my book. Yeah. What's the subtitle?

How to Tell the Truth. the story of how God saved me to win hearts now. That's on Amazon Prime. Amazon. We're going to put it in show notes. I was thinking while we were praying,

what kind of person you were when you were single? Why would you go there? Why would you look like that? You're talking about pre-in-christ or? I didn't know you pre-gris. Oh, you're talking about when we were friends. Oh, man. Can we talk about the person you were?

Who was that? The little baby fro. Jackie had this little baby pro. That's when we was in a little rock star stage, and she had all of them rock star chains or whatever from hanging from my pocket and a little dragon shirts. So we have two guests with us.

And she was mean, but she wasn't mean to me, but you were mean in our single days. Yeah, you're probably the only person I wasn't mean to. Yeah, she was mean to everybody except me. You're my buddy. Honestly, truthfully. I've said this before. Honestly, truthfully.

It was a culture shock to me to come to Christ and realize that all of the Christian dudes were like corny. They, they, don't, they wasn't all corny. They were. No, all my friends were not corny. No, they were. Genuinely. Honestly. Honestly.

That one man, when he had, the one that had this phone on the clip, I said it, it's 2008. Hey, why? You got your phone on this clip. It wasn't that old. And this man walked in the house and Jackie said, You must be raised by old men Uncle You was 22

I said who says that Anyway out loud I just I was just befuddled I just didn't I just didn't know that Cornyness came with Christianity Oh my gosh We'll be talking about today But I've adjusted to that being a reality

If you're corny and watching this episode No they're accepted in Christ No I understand that's purity We have friends here We got Begne Ashley and Ebenezer How did you say your last name Ebenezer I didn't even go hold you I don't know how to pronounce it

Andreas. Andres. There it is. That's a, that's a game. San Andreas. San Andreas, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So say with the E instead of an A.

So Ebenez is Ethiopian. Uh-huh. He's a really good friend of ours. Megan's Black. Megan's Black. He had me eat. I just want to say this real quick. She's African American.

I just want to say this real quick. He took me to an Ethiopian restaurant on time and they brought a pile of raw meat. And I said, what I'm going to do with this? If you got to cook it. No, but imagine. Imagine if we had somebody else here. He was like, you know, she's Asian. They're Korean.

He didn't know. He's from Africa. I don't know. East Africa. For me, when I hear a name that sounds like interesting, the first thought is like, where are you from? Because ain't no black person named Ebenezer. I'm not gay church.

Ebenezer Baptist. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Yeah, yeah. Okay, whatever. What we're talking about today? You're in Atlanta, too, bro.

Really your last name. It was your last name. Yeah, yeah. Morning first. It's like not racist because he's black, but, you know? We are here to talk all things, relationships, singleness, all this stuff, because Ebenezer was on our couch, like two months ago. And me and him had this.

random conversation about, I don't know how you started it. I don't know what happened. You actually, this is actually when y'all recorded y'all podcast. So this is what February? Yeah, that's right. It was a while ago. And you were saying how you feel like purity messages stop when people turn 18. And you were saying how like you feel like the conferences and the language and like when

people get into their 30s, 3, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 35, it's like those same tactics and strategies that people are given to maintain purity. It's not that it doesn't apply. It's just different. You know what I'm saying? And you were just kind of shocking me because you was just saying that people just kind of be on some,

hey man, like, fornication, like, we know we're going to get married. It's cool. And I just was like, really? Like I just, I couldn't compute that people didn't think that having sex wasn't sin. In my mind.

You understand what I'm saying? And so it just opened up this bigger discussion about how we need to have a more mature discussion around singleness after 30. And I think even being friends with Megan is just like we have this conversation often about who is talking about what it's like to be single after you're divorced. Who is talking about what it's like to be single after you're widowed? Who is talking about what is like to be single when you have children? Who is talking about like that's a different?

in life. You know what I'm saying? And both of you guys, and I'm really grateful that both of you guys are here because both of y'all are in your 30s. And a lot of times people feel like not a lot of people, but some people, I feel like you can only get wisdom for married people, but y'all are two people who are not married, who God is using tremendously in your 30s. Y'all have so much wisdom, so much insight. And so one, just thank y'all for being here. You know what I'm saying? Thanks for having us. Round of applause. Y'all ain't going to clap. Oh, then you want to say something?

No, I just wanted to give them their props. Okay. I don't even know what to start. It's hard to ask people questions when you be talking to them. Because we talk a lot. Yeah, we do. Y'all talk a lot. I talk to Megan.

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? But I got a question. All right. I got a question. So, like, in y'all 30s, right? Like, like, explain. Because, one, I got married when I was 27. Jackie got married when she was 24.

And so I've heard people. express, you know, we talked about, had a conversation about like how people are always complaining about their singleness. Yeah. But what is it like being single when you're in your 30s? Like, in the body of Christ, like what is that process and what is that, that, that, that, that, this season like for you guys? Yeah. For me personally, um, I've had different seasons of my relationship with singleness. Um, I grew up a hopeless romantic. So I actually, I was going to get married at 25, have my first kid at 28. Guy had other plans.

And so a lot of you, Ebenezer. When this comes out, 34. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Next week, August 6. Yeah. Press and I are doing a show on my birthday.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Minnesota. And so there was a lot of grieving, especially when you see different friends of yours get married. And you're like, whoa, I thought I was going to get married before this person. The weirdest thing is I've been pastoring for coming up on 11 years now. It's weird watching people you pastored when they were in high school get married before you. Wow. And you're just like, God, where are you at?

Did you forget about me? Yeah. So feeling like forgotten, feeling like God just doesn't have a plan for me in this particular part of my life. I see him coming through in other areas, but where are you here specifically? wondering if I'm doing something wrong. You know, you go through the whole, is it like a faith? Is it, you know, the way I present myself? I'm introverted, shy. Is that the problem? You know, you just think internally, what can I do better? Is it God? Is it me? What is it? But then, recently, maybe in the last two, three years, I've actually grown to love singleness. And part of it is

because whether it's podcasting, pastoring, I'm traveling a lot, doing a lot more now. And I'm watching my married friends share with me like, wow, I wish I kind of had your life. You can just get up and leave whenever you want. You can book a flight and head out in two days if you want. And they're like, you're reaching more people. And I'm like, whoa, this is a gift. I started to understand what Paul meant when he said it's better to remain single. We don't talk about that the church enough? Like, you know, there's, you could be really effective in ministry when you're single because Paul calls it worldly problems, right? Like, there are other things to consider like somebody else's schedule, somebody else's needs, so on and so forth. And so lately, the last two,

three years, I've really enjoyed my singleness. That's dope. Yeah, yeah. That's dope. Oh, me. Yeah. I guess my context is a little different because I've been married and so most of my adulthood was marriage. And so for the last two years, almost three years, I've been single. Do you sure how long you were married? I was married for 14 years. Wow. I didn't know it was that long. Yeah, 14 years. I got married when I was 20 and I got divorced when I was 33. So almost 14 years of marriage. I was with him for almost 15 years. And so this, yeah, this context of being single. is so different because I know what it is like to be married. And I think that because a part of my marriage was so rough,

a majority of it was so hard, there's like going into being single, there was an excitement of just like, I don't have to, you know, I don't have to ask anybody permission to do anything. Like I don't have to, like, I kind of just get to, you know, be on my own. Yeah, you can kind of experientially express what he just talked about.

Yeah. You were married. Yeah. Now I kind of just, I don't have to, even though I have children, so I still have, I still have responsibilities and things. But, yeah, I didn't have, you know, I didn't have the trials of my marriage anymore. So there was like a freedom that I was excited about in a way. But being divorced, I think you go through these different levels of grief where there's a part

of it where it's like, okay, there's a freedom there. But then there's a part of it where it was kind of hard. like being in a home alone and not having like a male presence there. That was a little weird and difficult or making decisions on my own. Like I never just made decisions on my own. I always had to check with someone. And so I don't know. It just, it was weird. But I think that I've learned to kind of take the context of being married and I've placed the Lord in the role of my husband, if that makes sense. And so now, what I would normally have done in my marriage,

I kind of place that on the Lord. So now I'm checking in with him and I'm asking him for permission and I'm seeking his comfort. I'm seeking his counsel. And you know what I'm saying? So I don't know. Singleness after marriage is just such a weird context

that I don't even have like a blueprint for. I'm still navigating through it because again, nobody talks about it. Nobody's helping you with that. There's so much shame that comes after divorce and especially in the church context, they make you feel like you're a stain. Do you know what I mean?

Or you're, there's no redeemable quality in you. Like, there's something has to be wrong with you if you're divorced. And there has to be something wrong with you if you're divorced and you're still single. You know what I mean? My ex has moved on is in a whole relationship. Here I am.

I've never been in a relationship since I've been divorced. But I can imagine, I can imagine that, like, your story is inspiring to a lot of people because your ministry launched off after you're to force, you know what I'm saying? Like God has used you greatly. I'm not advocating divorce.

Like, oh, let me get my divorce. That's not what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Like, let me do, you know what I'm saying? Like, what I am saying is like, I do think that God displays that he, he does create beautiful things out of hard circumstances.

Yeah. Yeah. He really does. Yeah. You know, which is, which is, I think the focus matters too, though. Like, I didn't get divorced and was,

focused on getting into another relationship. I think that, like, I was meditating on this today, like, thinking about the Samaritan woman and, like, how Jesus meets her at the will. And, like, he reveals, like, you've been divorced five times. Do you know what I'm saying? And, like, in none of that conversation does, like, after he reveals, like, what you really been thirsty for is me, like, what you really want is me. Like, he reveals all the brokenness in her and how he's actually the thing to redeem her

and actually the thing that she's been striving for. But then after that, there's nothing about marriage. Yeah. He doesn't say, now go run and get the man that you've been living with and go get married and start a ministry. There's none of that. He said, go run and tell people about me. Yeah.

So it's like that was her focus. It's like she ran and told everyone about the one who gave her living water. Do you know what I'm saying? And I think for women who are out of divorce, it's like, yeah, don't focus so much on like going and getting into another relationship because it's not the relationship that's going to heal you. It's him that's going to heal you. And just focus on pursuing him and focus on telling everyone about who the man was that healed you. That's good. So I think that that's the difference. That's good. And interestingly enough,

I think that's what I hear in both of y'all's perspective is a is the perspective, is the Lord. You know what I'm saying? Not necessarily a relationship. Because I think in the culture, I think we've been Discipled into this kind of idolatry where romance and marriage and people is the thing that sustains and fulfills

and all the stuff and so it's like for you the satisfaction in singleness came because you realize oh this makes you your sentence was this makes me effective in ministry that's what you said

and then for you like no the Lord is my husband it's like y'all both anchored your seasons and your situation in the Lord. My question is why? Yeah. Like, why? Like, to me, that says something about your character.

That says something about what y'all have learned or experienced about the Lord, that your perspective has been shaped that he actually is the thing. Yeah. I want to share a cool story that involves both of you guys, actually. Oh. The year was 2019, we just had planted a church. There's also a lot of shame around being a single person. pastor. Let's talk about that. I got so many questions about that Ebenezer, San Andreas.

San Andreas is nasty. She called you a video game, but, though. Okay. So we planted the church, and then we did this series on mental health at our church, and we ended the series by doing an event with you. I don't know if you remember this, where we brought, because in 2019, you guys were big on Jesus in therapy. So we're like, let's end this series. I do remember that. Yeah, it was a cold day in Minnesota, actually. I was like, why am I here?

We actually almost got into a car accident. Do you remember that in the snow? Yeah. I don't remember that, yeah. And so you came out, and when you were there, you know, it attracted people that weren't members at the church. And the following week, I met a guy who came as a result of the event. And turns out he struggled.

with same-sex attraction. Followed your guys' ministry very closely. That's why he came. I was, oh, Preston's in town. I want to come through. And so he just started coming to our church, and we started meeting up with him. And he was really struggling with his sexuality and his faith.

And he was on the verge of, like, following Jesus wholeheartedly or just leaving him all together. And I just one day out of curiosity, I was like, hey, bro, why do you attend our church? like what is it about this community that stands out to you? I know it sounds like you've got some things you're trying to work through theologically. What is it about art?

Because I didn't want him thinking we're compromising in this area. So we're not affirming if that's what you think this is. And he's like, you know what it is? Every church I've been to has told me that singleness is beautiful. Singleness is a gift. And I'm called to singleness, singleness until God changes my attraction. But when I look at the church, I don't see any single leaders. I don't see any single pastors.

And so they're telling me there's nothing wrong with singleness, but I look at the church and there's no room for me in the church. And he's like, I'm drawn to this church because the pastor is single. It makes me feel like there really is no cap to how God can use me in my singleness. In that moment, transformed how I looked at my singleness as a pastor. I was like, this is not a weakness. There's no shame here because, there are people who are being encouraged to follow Jesus and love Jesus.

There's a whole group of people that are being forgotten, and we're telling them be single, but we're not telling them or showing them, or we don't have any examples of how singleness can be beautiful within the church context. That's so good. That's crazy. I love that. That's great. I got so many caveats.

A small caveat is I remember, I don't know if it was a preaching book. It was some type of something. I don't know if it was a class or something. And they were talking about being mindful about the illustrations you use in your sermons. And how oftentimes the illustrations we use come out of the context we exist in. And how if you are married, you need to be mindful of not always using marital illustrations. Or if you have children, not always using parental illustrations. Because then it excludes people in the church who do not relate to that.

And I started hearing it where I was just like, oh, like the pastor is always using marital explanations. And the singles in the church are like, yeah, I can't. I can't relate. So now they can't even relate to the text because every illustration you give excludes them. And so like even like the way we preach has to be mindful of the people in the church that just don't relate. You get them saying? Absolutely. All right.

Go ahead. Sorry. I had to get that out. What was the question? What about the law? Lord, I guess, has made him even the main thing and how you understand singleness for you to say he has become your husband, like what made you not try to replace your previous. That sounds so crazy.

Like, Jesus is my husband. I feel like that was a lot of women. Growing up in church, like a lot of single women, my mom's age, that was like a thing. But yeah, I think that, you know, I talk often about my encounter with the Lord on my porch and how that like radically transform my life. And I think that giving the Lord a serious yes has just fulfilled me in ways I've always longed for most of my life, even in my marriage. You know, I just have never experienced this level of love before. And so I think that's the thing.

It's just like I'm, I just feel so indebted to him. Like, I just want my life to be all about him and everything that I do. And so I'm just not seeking for other things. Like, I have really just found all of my fulfillment in him. Like, he rescued me in a real way, like in a real way. Like, I could have really been out of here. And he rescued me. And he's loved me in all the ways that I desired that in my marriage and did not get that.

He has given me that. And so it's like, I just love him. And I feel, yeah. Like, I just, I don't have, I have nowhere else to go. Okay, Peter. So when, because what I can hear, I'm going to give you room for a question. You got a question? No, no, no, you go.

I hear somebody in my spirit saying, okay, cool. I love him too, but I just want somebody to touch me. The Lord, like, I just want somebody to touch my leg now. I just, I just want to be touched. I'm cold in his bag. I just want somebody. I want a hair. I don't mean.

Ew. That's disgusting. If you were a woman, you know, because that is a true reality. No, for real. Where we can be fulfilled and sustained and comforted by the spirit,

all the stuff. But then we are made for human, not made, but we are created in such a way where human affection does feel good. Yeah. And so especially when you are a divorce woman who has experienced that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So how does, how does a person, I'm trying to word this in a way that is modest, how does a person wrestle with that? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And I just want to just add a little bit, just overall loneliness. You do get lonely as a single break.

Even though you've got Jesus and you're doing ministry. I understand that loneliness probably is a thing. That's a thing. Yeah, I think that I've experienced the ebbs and flows of that where there are moments where I'm like, because I am like you, like hopeless romance. Like if anybody is even even in my life, like most of the people that are close to me are like, you're a wife. Like the way you move and the way you nurture and the way that you are like, that's just how I am.

So there are parts of me that's like, heck, like it would be great to have someone. But those moments, I think for me, and this, I don't even mean to sound corny saying this, but I think the more that I have an intimate relationship with the Lord, the more that those feelings are very few. Like they're short. Like they come and then they go.

Do you know what I mean? It's not like I'm in my bed like crying because there's no way next to me. Yeah. I actually enjoy sometimes that they're, There is, yeah, I enjoy my, I enjoy that there's nobody. You know what I mean? I don't know. I think you weigh, you, you look at the cost and you weigh it.

And you're just like, yeah, it might be a little lonely sometimes. But I also have a really full life. I have three beautiful boys that give me so much affection. I mean, they are, they literally last night were sleeping on top. Like, they were right next to me. They fell asleep in my bed. And so, like, I take advantage of the affections of where I can do. get it, though they're not romantic in like those type of affections, but like I get love in so

many places. And so my life really is full, honestly. It's real. Yeah, I, I definitely, as especially as a man, there's definitely that temptation to be like, all right, Lord, I'm satisfied in you, but you've given me desires. So, but you know what's, what's really helped me temper it. I have like two things if that's okay. That's good. We got time. One, it speaks to what we're already talking about, being busy in ministry. I think about Second Samuel chapter 11.

Give us texts. Always. Always. It always you're going to give a text. It's in his heart. It was when David fell in sin with Bathsheba. The way that passage starts off always scares me. Because it says in the springtime, when kings go off to,

war, David was at home. And because David wasn't where he needed to be, he set himself up for failure. And so for me, I've realized sometimes what helps me, most times what has helped me is being busy in the kingdom of God. When I am, it was Matt Chandler who says there's nothing more dangerous than a bored man. Right? And so when you've got all this time on your hands, man yeah yeah I told you I said I need to go do something as soon as you said that I thought about all the brothers I knew since I've been in Christian and got in trouble

yeah trouble and it was all bored yeah go do something bucko serve the church yeah that's big the church needs you yeah and when you're when you're not where you need to be you always find yourself in a compromising position wow and so David he had a heart after the Lord, but he just wasn't where he needed. He had to be out battling. He had to be in the middle of the war, but because he stayed back. And I wish we knew why. I don't know why he

didn't go to battle, but he wasn't where he needed to be. And so for me, what has helped me when I'm feeling like, ah, I really would be nice is being busy in the kingdom of God. I, like healthy distractions, right? Yeah. When you're thinking about others, serving others, when you're considering others, when you're being patient. You have very little time to like entertain your temptations. That's good. So that's that. And then two, what's helped me out a great deal is being friends with married people.

Because you realize sex is like this part of the marriage. And when you see all that comes with a marriage, I think marriage is beautiful. It's a gift. but I also do see that single people over romanticize marriage. We don't, for the longest one, I thought about marriage, I thought about vacations. I thought about Netflix and Chill.

I thought about somebody who believe in me, a best friend. I didn't think about ways I had to die. I didn't think about things I had to sacrifice. I didn't think about ways in which I had to forgive. I only thought about the things that would benefit me. You ain't think about the Bible. Why?

Yeah. Yeah, boy. And so being in proximity to married folks, I had a realistic picture of what marriage actually is. I was cool. Yeah. I love that. I was thinking about that this morning. I was like, I think we are so Western-minded and not kingdom-minded.

Because we live in a society and a culture that tells you grow up, you know, go to school, get married, two kings. kids, a dog, white picket fence. And so that's always our, that's our goal. It's like, okay, you know, you're 20-something years old. You need to get engaged, you know. And so, but the Bible says to seek you first the kingdom. That should be our mindset is to seek the kingdom first and not to seek a marriage. Because the reality is like both the single man and woman and both the married couple, we all have to die.

It's just a particular type of death. Yeah, sure. You know what I'm saying? Because in marriage, there is a person that is always acting as a mirror for you. Right, right. In a way that you just don't have in your singleness. And the truth is, it's all really for glory. In the same way, it's all really for glory in singleness.

It's just God wants some people to get married to fulfill his purpose and will on the earth. And he's not necessarily calling all people. And so I don't necessarily think all people are called to. to marriage. Some people are called to singleness and that's a, that's also a thing. But I think what you're saying, if we have God's kingdom and God's glory in mind, that's right. The end goal is always the same. And so sometimes I think that people over-romanticize, you know, marriage. And I think some people will be like, I wish I was single again. It's like, no, you're actually just not thinking about the main thing. Right. Glory. Right. That's good.

Like if we all, if everybody thinks about glory, you'll, you'll be able to fall in your your respective positions properly. Yeah. If we thought about glory. Because it's a sober-mindedness. You know what I'm saying? Like I just think the Lord is after sobriety of thought. That's good.

And me and Megan were having this conversation. I don't know where we was. Somewhere in grass. And we were... In grass. We were on the grass. Oh. I was like, what country is that?

That wasn't really weird. Somewhere in grass is such a random. We were sitting in the grass. Got it. Yeah. I get it. I know we're real. are in D.C. And we were having this conversation and we were, we were just saying how people

don't understand how either position, ultimately what you're saying, is a gospel position. Married or single is a gospel position. And if you understand it as a gospel position, then you recognize that this ain't about you. At the end of the day, this is for God's glory and God's namesake, especially marriage. So if like, if you even understand marriage as this is a image of God's love for his church, then it's like when it gets hard, how are we imaging the gospel? When it gets beautiful, how are we imaging the gospel? And then, I don't know.

I'm about to rant. I don't want to get on a rant because I've been going at it with these young Mary men. It's like, let's talk about that. Oh, man. I've been, I've been, I've been, I've been, I've been wrestling with these dudes. Yeah, yeah. Because. Your wife is, it's not just, she's going to fail you.

She is supposed to. You're never going to be sanctified if she doesn't. Right. That's good. Okay, can we talk about it? That's good. Can we talk about it? Yeah. Because they start somewhere that's in their hearts while they're single.

Yeah. So, I don't know how to start. What, what is the question? This fidgeting is like in the anxious. What's coming? I know what you got to say? You want me to say something? Well, you got a question.

I do have a question. Okay, go. What are you going to say? No, no, go. I trust you. You're a beautiful, smart woman. That's my marriage you. I think, I don't think I was that smart when you married me.

You were. Okay. I was mean. That's what you said. You were mean and smart. I think is, I guess part of my frame is that when I ask honest questions, then all of the brothers. think I'm being mean. Just acting nicely, babe.

No. Because then they felt away. No. Then they felt away because I said, anyway, I think ultimately, I think what I'm trying to get at is it can come across.

I'll be very kind in that. It can come across like some men, some, not all, I'm not going to generalize, have a sense of entitlement in their marriages. have a sense of like if she doesn't she's supposed to respect me she's supposed to do this supposed to do that da da da da da da if she doesn't then eff everything and and forget everything that's

what i mean and so i'm trying to and there's layer there has to be some of that in their psyche pre-marriage where there is some type of developmental process where you don't understand that you're, and I'm not, that's not to say that a woman isn't supposed to respect the man. That's literally the command for women in Ephesians 5. But I'm saying there is something in the man's frame that isn't that you're supposed to die. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what my question is.

Okay. But I want to get at that. Yeah. But also, I want, does that make sense what I'm trying? And I want to give people context because I just got back from- They're going to hate that I don't know. No, I honestly don't care. No, I don't think it was a harsh even, you know.

I think it was a fair question. It wasn't a question, but I feel like it was a fair assessment. Because it's ruining your marriages. Yeah, yeah, because to get people context, I just got back from a men's conference in Cali and, you know, this men's conference, you know, this men's conference, you know, a lot of the men who came up and talked to me, but very honest. And I feel like at men conferences, men just have the freedom to be honest with women I'm not there.

So they just be venting or whatever. And a lot of men, they were kind of just done with, like, in their hearts, they were done with their marriages. And I think one of the, and I said to myself when I was on stage, I was like, I'm so glad. And it's not even to plug my men's group that I'm starting, but I'm so glad I'm doing it. And I know why the Lord has put it on my heart to do it. It's because I think one of the things that I want to do is I want to help single men develop a healthy expectation for marriage because I think it's a decisive.

discipleship issue. I think we don't do a good job of developing leaders for realistic expectations while they're single. And so when they get rocked in marriage, that's the reason why they respond to what they do. Right, right, right, right. The truth is, if God gave us a spouse that made out of every condition, we will never learn how to love unconditionally. You will never be sanctified if your wife was perfect. Right. You're not perfect. Yeah. You know what I'm said. And so I do think, and I also think that sometimes even in the church, we can be around men who give us a realistic expectation of how we should be respected. You could be the most realistic. Unrealistic or whatever. Because I think some men come with this hypermasculine

language and talks even in the church. And they feel, and they make young men feel like, if you are not respected by your wife, it's because of you. And it's like, and so that's the reason why they personalize it so much. It's like, oh, you think something about me. Not, you're just a sinner like I am. Right, right. So you're going to fail to respect me at times just like I'm going to fail at loving you sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I think a lot of times because they've been disciple by men who say, if you are this type of man, your wife will automatically do that as if she's some robot and not a human being. Right, right. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And so I think, so, so really what I did at the conference was just really. really helping young men develop realistic expectations, no, you're going to marry

and you have married a sinner. That's good. It's really that simple. And she also married a sinner. And so, but also too, the thing also I think what men have to understand is the Bible tells us

that if we do not love, you have no right to call her out on our stuff. You have no right to call a woman out on something that you're first not modeling. Right. That's good. It's a word. Yeah. And so if you want humility, but you won't model humility, how you can call it out on pride. Right. And so really, the only thing that will call your wife up is unconditional love. But isn't that how Christ loves us? That's right. He loves the church. He loved the church before the church loved them back. And he loves the church when the church doesn't have anything to give him. That's the goal. That's literally how God is calling us to love our wives. But I think that if we don't go into marriage with their proper expectations, we lose sight of. at and we be in our feelings and not in our marriage. Wow. What do you guys think about all this?

Yeah, I think, I think you said all the right things, all the correct things. I think just like we can break down some nuance to some of the things. I think that I think being married and having a marriage that failed coming out of it, there is so much that I've learned because I had a failed marriage. So I see all the areas that I went wrong and not fulfilling the role that God called me to be as a wife. And same for him. I think if I were to go back, like encourage men and women is that like during the dating process, don't get so caught up in romanticizing your marriage that you forget to be.

curious about the person that you're dating. That's good. And be curious not in just, I'm curious about her body or his body or how he, like, not that type of curiosity. But I'm curious, like, for men to ask questions, like, what does respect look like for you? Who are the men in your life that you respect? If respect is a issue, like, is a thing for men, then I think you need to lead with some of those questions while you're dating. What does respect look like for you? Who are the men that you respect? What causes you to lose respect for a man? That's actually very good questions.

Do you know what I'm saying? Like for women, like what does leadership look like to you? Yeah. How do you respond? Like, what would it look like if, what does conflict look like? You know what I'm saying? Like, be more curious about the things that actually matter in a marriage. Yeah.

Yeah. You being cute don't matter in a marriage. Yeah. Yeah. You know how to. It kind of matters a little bit. I mean, it's not the major thing. If you look like a foot, it's like a foot.

It's like... It doesn't help. It doesn't help. But I'm saying, you know, like, the main things, the things that are actually going to sustain you. I know what you mean. I'm just sure. You know what?

Like, those are the... Like, we have to be curious and ask those type of questions. You know what I'm saying? Like, being 30, if the Lord would ever bring a man into my life, I know the right questions to ask. Yeah. I'm going to be able to sift through that a lot quicker. You know what I'm saying?

I got a question. And I think the question is mainly geared towards you because you're a pastor, right? Ditto-ta. everything you just said, man, that was good. And I think that if a lot of women just ask those questions, it would make a lot of men happy. But, like, one of the, so some of the critiques my brothers have given me is because of things that I just said. Like, a couple of years when we need to talk to, me and my friend did, you know, they was like pressing, you, you'd be saying good stuff, but you just be so hard on me, you, you know, and even at the conference

that I just did, a lot of men, which I think is actually a valid point. A lot of men feel like women are not held accountable. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I told him is that as a man, I think it's my job to hold other men accountable. That's right. And I think, so I'm not trying to make women escape accountability. I just don't think I'm their primary accountability.

That I think a lot of young women in the church need, like older women or even pastors like yourself, they need to be held accountable too. I'm just naturally going to call my brothers. up to love even when they're not being respected. Right. Doesn't mean they shouldn't get respect. And so as a pastor, single women being in your church, what are some things that you feel like they need to be held accountable to?

And how can the church come along and build up women who are single and help them be successful, wives, mothers, things in the future? You're trying to get me in trouble. Just kidding. Yeah. I like to hear more from Jackie and Megan. I'm just saying from a past's perspective. But also I actually want to hear from y'all too because of y'all, y'all dealt with women as bad.

I think something, we were talking about this before we started recording too, but something I've observed. And I don't know if I truly understand why this is. I think it's easier in the church to assume that a woman is. further along because she attends the church faithfully. She goes to the Bible studies and she serves the church. But we don't really ask if she's emotionally mature. If she's also spiritually mature. I've just seen time, and this is both for men and women,

your ability to recount a Bible passage doesn't mean you're obeying that Bible passage. And so just because you're serving the church doesn't mean you're serving God. I know a lot of people who serve in the church for selfish ambition. And so that has always concerned me. And the difficult thing about this conversation, and that's why I love to hear you guys is take. I'm speaking from my experiences, my world. I don't know what's going on everywhere. But something I've seen is, you know, are we encouraging women?

to hold other women accountable. When it comes to confession of sin, I studied psychology in my undergrad. And I remember, I went to Christian University. I remember my professor pointed this out in intro to psych. He said that there was a study done.

And the way men and women repent is different. When men repent, they're very specific. Lord, forgive me for I said X, Y, Z about this person. And I had hate and yada, yada. And then he said the study showed that when women repent, they're not specific, they're general. Forgive me, Lord, for I'm sinful. But they don't really name the sin.

And I don't know how much weight that holds today. That was back in 2010, 2011. But I have seen a pattern in my world where women aren't being held accountable in certain areas of their life. And they're, they get a pass because they're at church. They get a pass because they're serving. But nobody's asking, hey, how are you? do you understand you're leading this man on? Why are you so surprised now that he asked you out? You know what I mean? It's like he was just, he wasn't just bold with it. Like there were some

interactions. There are some things that happen. Talk about it. And men, we're, we're, I actually have a question about that for men, but go ahead. Okay. Yeah. And, and that's a, especially in my circle as guys, we're like screenshotting text and sending, hey, how do I respond to this? Is this what I It's confusing. Yeah. And then so I can't, I've lost count of times where all of us were like, yeah, I think she's into you. We encourage a brother to shoot their shot and she's not.

And she's not into him. And we're like, what was that about? You know? And so that. And then secondly to. I think we need to really dig into that eventually. Yeah, go for it. Go for it.

I want to hear more from you all. I do want to address that. Everybody got questions. She said she got questions. You got questions, I got questions. Because what you just said about the repentance part and the holding accountability part, it reminds me of a conversation we had with your sister and her husband at the cabin. Oh, yeah. We were dialoguing about her friend and all the stuff.

Very interesting night. And what I think, one thing I think about women is women lean empathetic. And so I think there's a sense in which you can see your friend, your sister struggle, and you can identify the root of it and give a little more grace and leniency, which may or may not be healthy. And so I think whereas a dude might be like, hey, bro, stop. And so I think we're less inclined to say stop and more inclined to see, be like, I get it. That's so true. I think that's a thing.

That's so true because all the things, even I just take that whole spill and I held me unaccountable. But the truth is, it's been times in my marriage when I'm in my feelings. It's been times in my marriage where I don't want to love you like Christ love the church. It's been times when I'm in a basement mad. You know what I'm saying? And so it's not like I'm doing these things perfectly. But even when a brother comes to me as a man, I'm like, suck it up.

Yeah. Or even when Brian, like, when Brian, when Brian counsels you, Brian, it. I know Brian Struggest. The empathy is maybe three seconds, but it's like, what would Christ do? But in my mind, if I call her, I don't want no. I don't want that for the first 10 seconds. They got to be like, hey, bro. I think because women.

I don't want, you got to, you got to say, I get it. I need some empathy for a solid too many. I feel like for us, though, because there are so many things that go into a decision that we make. Like, because we're more emotional creatures. No. No. No, you're not. All right, all right.

You just made a fib. That was stupid. Fibbing. I think that we just have so much that goes into why we did what we did. Where men, it's like, y'all are just, yeah, y'all just do stuff. I don't know. I don't know. I do, what do you?

You know, I just be doing stuff. She made that sound so simple. So basic. Y'all are them. Y'all just some simple Negroes. They just be doing stuff and where women is like, there's, there's emotion and thought and all,

like there's so much that goes into it. So I think that's why we can lean more to, like there needs to be more, we're going to dig more into it where a man is going to be like, all right, bro, stop. Where a woman is like, what were you, like, what was happening?

Like, what did you wait? Like, was your makeup bad that day? Like that could have played a part and why something happened. I don't know. Maybe we're trying to, maybe we're getting somewhere because I do think there's a balance in that because the reality is, is women are not leaders in the relationships.

Men are. And so I'm going to empathize with my brother. I'm going to say, man, I've been where you at. You know, I've been there. I'm going to try to empath. Because he's a human being that needs empathy. But at the end of the day, I need to call you up because if I don't call you up,

your marriage ain't going to be called up. That's true. And so I do think that there is a particular type of accountability that men need that women don't necessarily need because I don't care what nobody says. Like, if I go back into my marriage, the right way with the right heart,

she's going to follow eventually. And I think this conversation speaks to why you need both men and women friendships and relationships and conversations. Because I think what I'm hearing is, for example, like that time we were at the coffee shop and that dude was having a conversation with you. And when he stepped aside, I was like, I kind of think he needs a little affirmation.

Oh, yeah. And not just challenge. Because I was challenging him. Yeah, but that's my feminine side saying, I think you need to rub his back as you challenge him, right? So I came and was like, hey, bro, you're going to be all right. But what I'm also hearing is, I also can't see, like we also as women can't just be empathizing all day.

You know what I'm saying? Like, we also need to be like, hey, if you lead that dude alone, that's manipulation. That's not cool. You can't just be entertaining dudes to scratch your itch because at some point that's flesh.

Right. And those are conversations that we've had, even about men. It ain't a lot, but the ones who try, you know, it's like. They're scared, sister.

Did you show them what you showed me the one dude that was in your DM? Oh, I did. Oh, I think I showed Jackie. That's scary. But it's like, yeah, me being an emotional

creature, and I'm very emotional sensitive. I'm like, well, you know, maybe if this, and Jackie would be like, I mean, I hear you, but no. Do you know what I'm saying? So there are, there are. Jackie, stay with that, but no. But, but no. Like, you know, so I think that that, I think you need a healthy balance. And I think that that's why you need both, like you said, men and women in your life that also know the Lord, that know what the end goal is. You know what I'm saying? That will give you both. You say you had questions. Do you remember that question? Yeah, I had a question about what you said,

because I think that this is, I know we need help. People need help. Yes, they do. When it comes to how men and women of God who are single interact with one another, you know what I'm saying? Like, every man that's in my life,

that single is not supposed to be my husband. Like, I can just, you can just be friends. Right. Yeah. There's going to be a healthy friendship with males and females in church. Yeah. I think that they're also.

So I think I know I need help because I be, I will send stuff to Jackie and Jackie would be like, Megan. Give an example. No, we'll give stuff like what. I can't because I'm going to be too specific. You give an example. You've seen messages. You're so abstract. I don't even know what we represent.

I'm saying there could be men that that will like say something in my DMs or text or whatever. and I am just trying to be kind. Yeah. She's naive. Dang. Bring it down. How are you naive? Can I explain?

Go ahead. I wouldn't say I'm naive. I'm just trying to be kind. That's a part of it, though, is that I'm trying to see how frank I should be, because the view's going to go up on this. Does that make sense what I'm saying, what I'm trying to say? You just don't mean knowing what a dude trying to get at you. Because here and he's just,

She's been married for 14 years. She's been out the game a long time. Okay, that's one. Two. I mean, yeah. She's, and she got these, you know, you know, when the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, she's so. She's so focused on her ministry. She don't realize that she's Megan Ashley sometimes.

You know what I'm saying? I don't know what that. She don't realize, she still don't. So, she don't know that everybody else know. So, she's responsible. responding like Megan, now realizing. Hi, brother. That's how I sound like.

Oh, that's so sweet. And it's just like you gave it too much energy. You gave it too much energy. So, okay, let me ask you a question. It need to be strong boundaries. You see, but I'm saying in the... You don't, you don't know when a single dude is trying to get at you? Genuinely, I actually don't.

Actually. Unless it's like extremely forward, I don't know. but she doesn't know if when that kindness is being interpreted as energy. Because they might be interpreting it as energy and she simply did nice. And that's genuinely not even my, like, I'm genuinely just being kind. I'm like, oh my gosh, same response I would give to anybody. Thank you so much. Or oh my gosh, that was so sweet.

Or oh, my God, I love that. Like, you know, I'm just being my, I'm being myself and being kind. Show yourself friendly. Right. So for you to say. that y'all have whole chats where people are interpreting girls as, we need to talk through that.

Yeah, we do. Because there's probably a whole plethora of Christians in the world that are going through mental health issues. And it's like for women, how do we know like, because I'm pretty sure I probably missed a whole lot of dating opportunities

because I didn't interpret that the right way. I interpreted it as you just being kind. But they were actually like giving energy. I mean, if it's clear, they should make it clear, though. You see where this can be confusing? Do you see where this can be confusing, though?

Yeah. I got a lot of thoughts. I think, I think, I think, so. Give us wisdom, Lord. You said if we ask it, you would give it generously. So I think, you know, one, I think with Megan, it might be an exception, right?

Because not only, no, seriously. Let's generalize it. Yeah, because, because, because, Because the reality is you're pretty woman, but you're famous. And so, like, people are going to find your page more often than a regular person, right? And so, like, you know, and so you probably got people coming into just because of who you are. You know what I'm saying? That's just a reality of it.

Like, you know what I'm saying? But I do think there has to be a balance because you, you, like, I do think that the church kind of, kind of disciples. us to, you said what? You praying? To not have healthy brother and sister relationships. So if I was a pastor, this is what I would do. To help us. I would not, I would encourage my sisters in Christ not to entertain so many conversations through DMs.

I would want that to be filtered through a local community amongst brothers and sisters who love you, who protects you and stuff like that because men are thoughtful. They ain't that thoughtful. What does that look like? Right? Because what I'm saying is a lot of the men that's coming in your DMs, they're coming in there with a motive. That's just the reality of it.

They ain't now, hey, how are you doing? They want to see where it can grow and where it can go to. And so I'm just being, I know, I'm a man. I just have a question. Did I say that? You remember you remember you saying? Okay. I don't have, I just want to be clear.

I don't have men in my DMs. And a lot of that is because of. Oh, so where are these men coming to you at? These are just, these were just few. I'm saying. It ain't like it's a constant thing. No. I'm just like they were few.

I also think we should generalize it to everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're just saying in general. In general. Like I, I, like, most men are hunting. Sorry, I was using this as like a personal decision. No, no, my bad, y'all. No, go ahead.

And when I was, and when I was, I was like, I need help. Personally. Hello? And what I'm saying is, it's nothing wrong with a man, a man shooting a shot. Yeah, yeah. I do think that as, as, Both men and women, we have to just do a better job of helping a certain man, especially if you're not interested.

Like, any attention that you give a man, he's going to look at that is hope. So any. But is that the woman's fault? I, I, I, I, I, I, I, see what I'm saying? It's not the woman's, because it's like, I'm not, I have to be kind. It's, it's not the woman. You ain't got to respond to everybody, though. Okay.

I don't. Okay. So let me ask this, ooh, this is irritating me a little bit. because it feels like so subliminal. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh, you responded to me that that's proof that there's something there.

Yeah, it's like just responding. And mind you, this is a conversation for people over 30. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay? We're not 17. Yeah, yeah. So at what point do we just,

are we just being clear, right? So at what point do we have a conversation with men that says can we just have, but I guess that makes you look thirsty, right? So that's what you're trying to guard against is I don't want to look thirsty. Let me just say this. Let me just say this. What I have encouraged. It's probably not as complex as we're making it.

Probably I'm making it. I'll just say this. What I have done in the past, I have encouraged men to be as direct as possible without casting unrealistic hope. Like don't, if you're interested in a woman, tell that woman I'm interested. Right. You ain't got to tell a God said you my wife either. Jesus, please don't do that.

And so it is a balance, right? And so I think the quicker we be honest with our expectations, like, yo, I'm coming into your DMs or I'm approaching you because I think you're attractive. I think you're attractive. I love how you honor the Lord, yada, yada, yada. Now what you do is you set the stage for her to assess you to, you know, like, pray about it or whatever. and now there isn't all of these realistic, unrealistic expectations or whatever. I think when a man is not direct like that, then you run the risk of just a random girl

just being nice. And because you have a certain motive in your head, all of her niceness is being interpreted as she likes me too. You never actually told her you liked her. Right, right, right, right. There we go. That's real. And so I do think that the expectations has to be clear in your singleness, especially if you're interested

in a young woman, but I do think that both men and women, they like the attention of the opposite sex without actually stating their expectations of the opposite sex. And so y'all entertaining each other or you're entertaining her and she's just oblivious or vice versa. And somebody's being left in the dark and then you can't blame, you know, the person when you end up being hurt or disappointed. Does that make sense? Because I just feel like, I don't know, I think a part of what irks me about this a little bit is it's a little bit childish just a little bit what's the childish but okay i just have a thought just to add a little bit of nuance come on past we talked about this in l.a a little bit the dating world has changed right so people don't meet in person anymore yeah people meet online

so a lot of the DM interactions it's hard to diagnose because people aren't dating in community anymore. And it's hard to know what somebody's actually saying. And there's a science to, and this is what I've heard, there's a science to making your attentions clear. So like, just right out the gate, hey, I'm into you. I want to get to know you. I've seen from experience could be intimidating and a turnoff, especially if that woman is not in community with you and has no context for you. Yeah. Now you put her in a possible situation, it feels like. Right. And so it's like, okay, well, I saw you at Acts 242. I'm not going to see you.

We're not in church together. We're not in the same city. I liked what I saw, but like I'm trying to be tactical in the way I approach the situation. And it's not that I'm hiding my intentions. I want to let you know I'm feeling you. But if you don't know me and I just come out letting you know my intentions, you're going to judge me based off my Instagram page. And because we're not in community together.

We don't have mutual friends. and I might lose an opportunity to build something with you simply because my only impression that you have of me is my Instagram page. And so now there's a science, there's an art to it. And so how do we, my question is how do we navigate the nuance of that? Because I do know men who do want to be honest, do want to make their intentions clear,

but they're like, I don't want to be creepy. And I don't want to come off too strong. And I want her to know who's asking her. her out before I'm actually asking her out. So how do you do it, Ebenez? He's like, that's why I ask. That's why I ask. Or do you know people who've done that well, success, like in a mature, but yeah?

Yeah, you know, from my experience, so many people have different personalities. Some people want a man who's just upfront and direct. And when that happens, it works for them. Other women really appreciate being friends first. and they want to hang out and get to know you. And then I've seen that work out for people. And so that's why I struggle because I don't know if there's a one-size-fits-all right now in our context. My question is, is like, is it wisdom to, like, should we just be more focused on dating people that we're in community with?

With the Perry's is produced by the Perry's with support from Amanda Reed and, Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.