With The Perrys - Part 2: Dating After 30, Singleness, and Other Questions Answered

Episode Date: September 2, 2025

Here’s part 2 of the Perrys’ conversation with Megan Ashley and Ebenezer Endiryas about dating in your 30s. Jackie, Preston, Megan and Ebenezer left you on a cliffhanger. “Should we be more focused on dating people that we’re in community with?” The group picks up the conversation there, talking about creating environments where someone you’ve met online can be brought into your community. They talk about how unkind it is to lead someone on, how men’s lack of emotional connection with other men impacts how they experience women, and how beneficial it would be if singles stopped thinking about “the one” and reflected more on God’s sovereignty. At the end of the day, all of these questions around dating and singleness are nuanced. It’s not black and white – these conversations require wisdom. Scripture references: Matthew 6:33   Connect with Ebenezer: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ebenezerendiryas/ https://www.instagram.com/shapingtheculturepodcast/ Shaping The Culture Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shaping-the-culture/id1351020282   Connect with Megan: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/immeganashley/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Immeganashley In Totality Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-totality-with-megan-ashley/id1614077859 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you know what I'm saying? It makes things easier. It makes things easier. Because there are so many, yeah, it's like we have access to anyone. I have access to somebody in Nebraska, right? I got access to somebody in Argentina. I have access to anyone. Doesn't mean that we should be entertaining a relationship just because we have access in that way.

Because, like, is that realistic? I don't think we should restrict the possibility. See, that's confusing. No, see, this is what I was going to say. I think it's a realistic. still single. Right. I'm like,

you know what. I think it's, I think it's an unrealistic expectation to not think that people are going to meet via social media. Yeah. Because it's happened. Marriages have been successful.

You know, and so it does happen. Like, oh, my husband was in Ohio. I was in Atlanta. He DM me. We met, yada, yada. He moved to Atlanta. We're married with five kids. Those stories are out there.

But I do think the reality is that when I, like, when I first started pursuing and Jackie, we were doing poetry shows around the country. You know what I'm saying? So I was around her consistently. We became friends and then later on I pursued her. The world has changed since then.

That's just the reality. Like social media has blown up and so many people. But at the same time, we have to be honest and say, people can hide through social media. That's right. And you will set yourself up for failure a lot when you are entertaining so many. men or so many women that are not in your local community because you actually don't know them. Right. And so I do think that if you meet somebody on social media, I think one of the wisest things

that you can do is create environments where you can actually invite them into local community. Like my past need to be around you. My brothers in Christ need to be around you. They're never going to work for me. Huh? If they got to be aware. I mean. No, seriously.

Like, but listen. So you're Megan Ashley, right? So you're a leader in the Christian community. God knows what type of man you need. For sure. God knows what type of man that he put over you to be your pastor. God knows that you in Preston Perry's life. And so whatever man that God sent for you,

he got to deal with Philip Anthony Mitchell. Scary. He got to deal with Preston Perry assess him because I can read people quick. And if he's for you, I do think in God's sovereignty, God is going to send a man or women in your life that not only can deal with you,

but can deal with all that comes with you. Yeah, for sure. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, he got to be strong enough. He got to be secure, too. Yeah. Because, you know what I'm saying? A man that's insecure won't be able to be with you.

No, that's clear. That's obvious. You know what I'm saying? And so like, and so like, and so, like, so I guess when I'm saying, I'm going to use you for an example, and this goes for everybody, if you are entertaining a person out of town, don't just be all Googly out because what they saw in your social media, but also don't underestimate the power of local community, invite that person and say,

my church is having, you know, a weekend, whatever, come fly to my city, you know, be around my people. Because that's when you'll have confidence when the people around you say, oh, I think he's actually, or I think she's actually, you know. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I don't know if we answered the text conversation. Okay.

She's like, y'all like, that's good. She's like, that's not good. Can we speak to women leading people on? Can we speak to that? Yeah. You want me to speak to that? Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

And I want to hear you don't do that. Oh, I was going to say. You don't do that. No, I want to hear both of y'all opinion because my brothers, single brothers in Christ, they have felt led on a lot by single women. I mean, but if you've created an imaginary person. suit in your mind. Some of them have. Some of them haven't. Some of them haven't. Be the presumption of being let on. So I do want to add a caveat too.

I think part of the problem is not a lot of men have emotional intelligence and not a lot of men connect with. Really? Eponneser. They don't. Really? Yeah. And they don't connect with a lot of other men emotionally. And so when they're connecting with a woman emotionally, they're assuming there's something there because they're experiencing something that they are not really getting from their friendships or their guys. That's why they need sisters. Or sisters. Yeah.

To be like, no, bro, this is what's happening. Go ahead. I don't know how to speak to that. So if a woman came up to you or if you had a friend. She's like, I leave people all accidentally. It's not on purpose. I just said thank you. I said thank you with friends.

She would bring in. I do. But if you had somebody. You was counseling somebody and they were entertaining a dude that they actually weren't interested in. They were just bored.

That is leading somebody on. Yeah, it's me. Don't do that. What would be your counselor? I mean, I think... What would be your counselor? Because people do do that a lot. Yeah, I think we got to get underneath that.

Like, what is that? You just, you're lonely, you're bored. You want something to do, having a male attention. Because I'm guilty of that. there, like, there was a lot of, a part of me, even just from, even a young age, like, dating in high school and stuff like that, where it was like, oh, God, I'm going to get myself in trouble. It's okay.

But there was like, yeah, a guy would, like, a guy entertains you and you like him. And then the second he, like, wants to get serious, you're like, oh, never mind. I don't want, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you were in it for the chase of it all. But then the second it was like, all right, like, what we doing? And it's like, oh, I don't like you anymore. So I think for women, we got to get underneath what that is. What is that?

What, like, what are you looking for? What, what itch is that satisfying? I think we have to get underneath that. And so I think for me, I don't know if there's a one answer, but it would be more digging through like, what is that? Are you lonely? Or, like, is it fulfilling some type of male absence that you, I don't know.

Daddy issues, mama issues, relational issues, I don't know. We got to dig under that. Yeah. And I think even if you can't get to the root of it overnight, I think studying books like First John about love can help you at least to repent and turn in a different direction. Because at the end of the day, playing with people's hearts and emotions is lovelessness. Yeah. It's just not kind.

And so the Lord doesn't play with our emotions. He doesn't play with our affections. He actually loves us sincerely. Even Romans tells us to love each other with sincere brotherly affection. And so I think, yeah, just don't disobey the Lord in that way. And then ask the Lord to like reveal the root of that so that you can move differently. Because that just don't feel good for people to play with your emotions like that. Nobody likes that.

Yeah, it's just not fun. Part of me, I feel like a grandma. but it's like I think a part of the reason why this conversation is not black and white is because it's a big wisdom conversation it's just a big like

ain't no black and white to it I even saw this dude on threads I don't know who he is but he was saying that he's irritated by married couples who say that when you meet your spouse you just know you just know and he was like what does that mean he was like stop making it so

mystical just say like give me he is like he wanted something more practical I guess and I wanted to comment it's like yeah you just know you just you just do and it's like what if it is mystical what if it is something that you just have to be in relationship with God to experience so for the person that's frustrated about people who say that what does that knowing look like like like how do you know how do you know when you actually made. I think so, I think so much of this conversation is seek ye first the kingdom of God.

And all other things will be added unto you. I really genuinely believe that. I really think that if you are seeking first the kingdom of God, then even how you handle the text message, you'll have some wisdom. I think how you do the dating,

you'll have some wisdom. Just if you keep your face at his feet, it'll be confusing. It's not to say you won't be confused, but you'll always land in the right direction because you're, like, you're seeking him. Yeah, yeah. I think at any point you stop seeking him is when you end up in chaos. Yeah, because I also think that in seeking God, in our singleness, when the person comes

alone, they just kind of fit that mission so perfectly. Yeah. Like, because I think a lot of times you'd be like, God, is that? And it's like, God, it'd be like, just look at the obvious. I call you to do missions, and she like standing Georgia. I do think you need to know yourself. You need to know, Bucke. You need to know yourself, especially as women.

I think women can, I think women know they are called to support and help. And so you can be so wrapped up in I'm called to help that you neglect, that you're also called to make disciples to and that you've been gifted to. And so even with us, like I knew I was a teacher. I knew I was gifted. And so it wasn't just merely that I knew I can come alongside your gifts. I saw that our gifts complimented and didn't compete. And so I think knowing yourself, knowing how you're gifted, knowing how you're called,

and seeing how those gifts work together for the, like, the Lord, da, da, da, da. But I also feel like knowing how this person will help you love God more, right? And so with you, when you came along, I didn't want to be married because I'm self-centered. I wanted to be single because I did not want to serve anybody else. And so to me, To me that was a clue that this person is actually going to serve and sanctify that part out of me. In addition to the mission that God has called me to do, right?

And so I think there are very practical things on top of very mystical things. I think, I think, too, I think about my relationship with the Lord. And I just feel like he, like, there was nothing that I could do. Like, he pursued me, like, chased me down. And it just was nothing. I couldn't get away from him. And I think that if the Lord is really, and I don't know, and y'all can help me, because I don't know if this is for every single person.

Like, I don't know if it's, like, one specific person for you, or does God just give you wisdom and give you the freedom to choose, you know, a person? I don't know. But I just feel like if God wants you to be married, he's going to make it clear. Yeah. I think so. Do you know what I'm saying? Like he's just going to make it clear. Like they're going to, like you said, there are going to be certain just practical things. Like for me, I'm divorced. I have three kids. So a man that doesn't like kids, it's clear that you're not the one for me. Right. I have a son. I love you, but I hate kids. Yeah. I have a son with two incurable diagnosis. He's nonverbal. I can't. I can't.

can't be with a man that doesn't have patience. Yeah. Those are clear things that I can discern using wisdom to, like, you know, okay, this probably is not going to work or, you know what I mean? I travel a lot. If you hate, like you said, you hate traveling, that's probably going to be it. You know, so I think that there's just a practical thing. One, two, I think if it's the Lord that wants you to be married, he's going to make it,

he's going to make it known. He's going to make it clear to you, like this person. Yeah, and also too, I mean, and I want to, us to like circle the block about the single being a pastor because we said we were going to talk about that. But, you know, one thing I, I've seen people always saying, like, is it a thing as though like the one? How do we know who's the one? Yada, yada, yada. And I really think we have to just stop thinking about the one and just think about sovereignty. Like I think a really deep study of God's sovereignty will help us because the truth is God.

God uses natural events. Like if God is not sovereign over every single moment, he's not God. Yeah. Right? And so God, God is often compare sovereign, like God's providence with a miracle. A miracle is when God suspends the natural to cause something supernaturally to happen, right? Lazarus was dead and the natural. He suspended the natural, calls him to raise from the dead.

But God's providence is not God suspending the natural, but God using the natural. He's using every minute, every second, every hour, every day, every moment, every meetup, every interaction or whatever to bring about his will. And so the truth is we all have free will, but God is going to use every man's free will for his glory. Like he knows what, you know what I'm saying? So like, is there a one? Like, no, like just trust that God is sovereign.

And where is that language in the Bible? Yeah. Really? Yeah, like the one. Yeah. This ain't the matrix? Why are we looking for Neo? Yeah.

Because the truth is, God knows what you need. And God can use every relationship like every relationship that he called together for his glory. Like he can use it. So it's your free will. But I don't know if we should stop using. Maybe I'm not saying everybody who used that language should stop. I'm just saying, no, no, just think about sovereignty.

God is sovereign. He's in control over every natural event, even our relationships. Yeah. He can bring glory from it. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. What are you going to say before he says?

Because I feel like you had something to say. I forgot. Sorry. No, you could. Sorry. I just wanted to say, you know, there is sometimes a negative kind of stigma on single pastors. And I think the reason why is because so many single pastors in the past have been bogus. Yeah, yeah.

You know, and it's kind of like, why you ain't married yet, Bucco? And so, like, talk about that. Like, talk about, you know, you being single as a pastor in that process. And I know you. You're my friend. I know you. and I know your character, and I can vouch for your character, but just talk about that dynamic of being single and a pastor

and how that's been for you. Yeah, you know, I think it was never my plan. You know, I grew up in the Ethiopian church, and in the Ethiopian church, there's a lot of need. And so for me, you know, when I graduated college, my plan was to, because I studied psych in my undergrad, so I was going to, my dream was to go to Pepperdine, get my master's, and then start a family and then pastor.

But the need was so great in the Ethiopian church, I got asked to be a pastor at such a young age. And so for me, I didn't necessarily know what I was stepping into. And I'm a little different. I didn't grow up with a lot of attention. Preston, you met my brother who hooped you in Dallas. He won one game. He got all the attention growing up.

Like, girls flocked to him. But for me, that was in my story. Y'all two different people. Very too different. Yeah, he's tatted. He's got sleeves. He's got the nose pierce. Yeah.

Very different person than me. And so for me, when I became a pastor, nothing really changed. I didn't get a lot of attention. So it was nothing to really entertain. But, like, three, four years ago, you know, I did this challenge. 75 hard, lost a bunch of weight, and attention started coming. And that is the first time I was like, oh, I get why. I get why men who are pastors want to be single and entertain. Because if you're not, if your inner child is not healed, you'll start using ministry to heal something God's call to heal.

And so what you really need is to be growing in your knowledge and wisdom of this idea that you are accepted by God, that you are loved by God. And if that's not deeply understood, you'll start looking for it in other places, in other places, women being one. And so for me, I don't, I don't judge because I truly understand the temptation. And for me, it's a weird experience. Mine is a unique one. I always say, I tell my friends, I've got two effects on women. When I tell them I'm a pastor, they're either like, I want nothing to do with that. Nope, sorry. Or I want, you're the one. One, you're my husband because you're a pastor.

And I actually, I don't know if you remember Preston. I remember like being frustrated and telling you about that. Like, bro, like, I don't feel like they want me for me. They want me because I'm a leader. Yeah. And you gave me some really solid. My goodness. And that's why I be saying my brothers be having like legitimate, you know what I'm saying?

Because I remember when I first started being a popular poet. It's like all y'all like me now? Yeah. I was in this church, but none of y'all talking to me. Now I've got a platform. Now, oh, y'all, I'm not. It's power. Yeah, it was weird.

Yeah, it was weird. It's funny because I feel like men and women have the opposite experience. Because, like, when a woman has a platform, men are actually very true. But when men do, women flock, but when women do, men are like, no. So it's like, I have the exact opposite. I've had more men in my DMs when I was married than I do now. Dang, because they're intimidated.

it. I don't know. And it's like I can do a poem well. It's like, you're my husband. That's crazy. Because I can do a poem well. This is weird. Yeah. We need the Lord. We need of. Yeah, yeah. I cut you long. I'm sorry. No, no, you're good. No. So that that was, I got the temptation. I was like, oh, if I'm not fully complete in Christ, I'm going to use women to try to, like, satisfy or heal something in me that's broken. And that's unique to my stories, because I didn't grow up with a lot of attention. So when attention came, I'm like, this kind of feels good, you know? And then I'm like, wait, no, it's not about me.

It's about. And so that's something I've had to die to. That's something I have had to bring before the Lord. And something that's helped me is by snitching on myself. I tell on myself, like all my friends, I got a solid group of guys that, like, they know everything. And they know my temptations. They know my thoughts. They know who I'm entertaining, why I'm entertaining that person, who I'm feeling,

and why I'm feeling them. And they just speak into my life. And that has kept me. That's good. That has really kept me. Yeah. And getting sound advice. Like every time I've talked to a girl, we've done a lot of ministry together the last

two, three years, I'm always like, Preston, what do I do about this? That helped out a lot, too. Like having married men who can bring wisdom into my season, to my situation, help me a lot. And so I, all that to say, I understand the temptation. I understand why men do that. And I think that if we're not serious about confessing our sins, you know, when I look at the Bible, every time the word repentance comes up,

it's between you and the Lord. Every time the word confession comes up, it's communal. You don't need to confess anything to God. He knows what you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, when you confess your sin one to another, the Bible promises healing. Yeah.

And so I think for me, what has kept me grounded, and I'm not perfect. and I've had temptations and moments of, like, weakness. But what has really kept me is knowing that I've got people that are going to ask me about this. That's good. And I have to give an account as far. I love that. For sure.

I do want to say, I do want to ask this because I think it's necessary. Because me and you talked about this. Oh, man. No, it's just this idea of choice, like not to harp on, men, and I think maybe women have this struggle to, but just making a decision. Like, is that not a thing where people have to at some point make a decision? A decision about what? Like, we know people who probably could have been married five years ago.

This isn't merely sovereign. It is sovereignty, yes. but it's like You mean like hurry to get married? Like you've been dating too long? Like you like you like entertaining Like you don't want to make a decision Yeah

So I said this a couple of years ago And brothers was mad at it Why? Because what I'm about to say is true And some brothers was mad at it But I'm going to say it again because it's true. I do think there is a particular type of attention that brothers get who are single. You might be, women might think you a little attractive.

And that consistent attention is addictive. And so a lot of people love that attention more than they love actually committing to one woman. Because when you, as soon as you commit, you have to stop. entertaining all of these women that's in your face. And I think a lot of men, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, it's an emotional immaturity. It is, it is, it's indicative to you actually probably don't know who you are in Jesus yet. You, you haven't probably been properly disciples yet.

And you just, you just like affirmation. Maybe your mommy didn't give you affirmation. Maybe, you know what I'm saying? Like you just wasn't affirmed. And so like, you know, we grow up, probably not affirmed. And now you're in Christ and you got some muscles and your teeth straight and stuff like that, women in your face. And I think then you see a lot of men fall into this mode of hurting and leading a lot of women on because

they actually like, and we, you know people I've had conversations with this. It's like, bro, you could have got married two relationships ago. For sure. You know, and so I do think that it's an emotional maturity issue. I do think that we have to just be honest with ourselves and say, man, there is something in Christ that I'm lacking. Where I feel like the need to remain single just so I can receive all of this affirmation and attention from those. That's crazy. What are you about to say?

No, what are you about to say? No, what are you about to say? Go ahead. I don't want to take this in a different direction because I. Go ahead. Okay. Preston's not looking at me, but I'm pointing you too, Preston. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I want to ask, I feel, okay, I'm, I want to say this. with love and gentleness. Okay. You can hold back all day. Okay. Okay. I have observed, so this is not me making declarations. This is observations, okay?

I have observed that, so you remember, like, during the pandemic and maybe, like, a little bit after, there was, like, this whole, like, red pill, blue pill, like, hypermasculinity, all the things. It was like a huge trend. It's still here in a lot of ways. Right. So then in the last few years, we have seen Christianity expand in a way where it's become a trend for people to be interested in Christ for people to go to church. Like it's a thing.

I see so many young, like our church is crazy. Yeah. Right? Like the amount of young people that we see. Flocking. Yeah. You know? But even just when I look in social media, when I'm on, like, you can just see that it's a trend.

And I feel like the trend of the hypermasculinity kind of bled into the church. The church. Yeah. And so I have observed a lot of men right now who feel like because there are so few men in ratio to women that there is this like you talked about before this entitlement of like they're the prize. Yeah. And especially godly men who feel like like, no, y'all got to be like. Like, I feel like women feel like they need to be sending men flowers at this point. Like, like there is, because women are also, and I'm going to get on the women too,

there's such a desire to be married because we don't have enough discipleship to tell you you you need to be kingdom minded, not marriage minded, right? So like I think there's a thing of that too. But like I feel like men are so like, not all men, let me be clear, because y'all be in y'all's feelings. Not on men, but there are so many men that kind of have this entitlement. And I think it goes to what you were saying, too, like they're getting so much attention. Because if you're saying you're a godly man, women are flocking. Like, they want a god.

I want a godly man. I want, I want to be Preston Perry and Jackie Hill Perry. Like, I want to be. Where's my boas? What's crazy is I did this conference a couple of years ago where this is, this is, this is, unrelated but kind of related follow me i did this i did this i did this i did this i did this uh conference it was in a relationship conference it was like a theology conference where this man challenged me about racial stuff and one of the things he did was he challenged me by

putting a black man in my face who who disagree disagree with me when it came to racial stuff and one of the things i told him i said the reason why y'all harold him so high is because people like him knows that if he could be a black man in this space with this type of framework, he could be special. Right? And so this is the reason why y'all always bring this person. I hear what you're putting down. You hear what I put down?

So he could be special. In the relationship context, I think men know that. Men know a lot of men, not every man, I know some solid brothers, but a lot of men know there's a man's shortage. A lot of men know that when you go to these conferences, then men know, I'm not flak into these conferences. If I can be an attractive man who appears like I love God, I can be herald as special.

Appear to be special. I can be prized. And so a lot of men are actually seeking that and not actually seeking relationships. Are seeking that and not actually seeking marriage. And so this is the reason why you need real ninjas in your life. Because I have told my brothers, I have told my sister's in Christ,

he don't want marriage. And I'm not trying to, you know, this to brothers, I'm all for the right. I love my brothers in Christ. You know what I'm saying? I'll stick, I will go to war for them. But I love my sisters in Christ too. And I tell you, I can see it from a mile away.

Yeah. Like, you don't want marriage. You like this attention. Yeah, yeah. And you're going to lead a lot of women on. Right. Right. And I've seen men in the church who loves the fact that it's seven women in the church

saying, I think you're my husband. You love that. Yeah. And you ain't, you ain't committed to tell all, none of them, you're wrong. Like, you want them all to believe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think that you just have to, you have to, you know, be connected to a community of brothers and sisters who would just be honest with you, be honest with that person who's leading people on. Yeah.

Because I do think that once people feel like, oh, I have the potential to be special in this area, you know, that's when you, people leave people on. What do you think about that, Abby? So I think the Red Pill community, they got a lot of the problems right. They just gave the wrong solutions. And the reason why the church, the men in the church flocked to it is because the church wasn't addressing it. So there's all these men who want to be disciples. They want men are drawn to leaders. Men are drawn like you see it all the time.

If a man got his money right, he's got his body right, he's confident, he works hard, he treats people well, men gravitate towards that. And so there were no men in the church teaching boys how to be men. I actually grew up in a church context where it was frowned upon to make money. money. It's like the opposite of the prosperity gospel is the poverty gospel. So it's like, don't make money. That's just love Jesus. I grew up in a church context where we're told if you work out and get a six-pack, that's vanity. But that's health. And so when I grow up in a church context like that and men are gravitating towards other men who are making the money, who do have the six-pack, who are successful, it's like, well,

God is cool, but like, I want to be like him. And I think the red pill just, they came in at a very vulnerable point. And I also, I want to just say this about the red pill community, because I think it's very important for us to know that a lot of people in a red pill community, they're attracted to the opposite sex, but they hate the opposite sex. And so I think a lot of men are learning from other men who, who, who just don't like women. And when I hear people in that community,

I hear a lot of rejected men. Yeah, that's right. And they've developed a framework out of their rejection. It's like the Hebrew Israelites. You've developed a whole framework based on what white people has done, not what God has done. And so a lot of these men,

they've developed a framework of how all of these women wounded them in the past. And so it's like a defense mechanism. And so now you have men coming into the church who's been disciple by men, who actually hate women, attracted to women, but you hate women. And so now men are coming to church using women for their own needs and not trying to love women like Christ of the church.

And so I think we have to understand. That's what the rare people community has disciple people to do. And so you have these men, they're showing interest in women, but they don't have real intentions to actually love women. And I think that's the reason why you see such a disconnect with opposite sex in the church. both, I would argue, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, both the Red Pill community and the gospel would teach men to be leaders, but the gospel teaches men to be leaders so that they can lay their lives down. Yes. The Red Pill community teaches be a leader so that you can be respected

by women and then you can do whatever you want. You can do whatever you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if she doesn't respect, she leaves. Exactly. That's literally the opposite of the gospel. Yeah, literally. Yeah. And so, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think what I have a, you have a, you have not Another question. I think what, I think ultimately what kind of grieves my heart about these kinds of things in the atmosphere is that it just works against what Christ came to die for, which is unity. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, my mind went to Ephesians, but in my mind is also Galatians. But it's like the, like, that is, I think that's one of a part of the fall is that. that when the enemy lied to Eve and she gave some to Adam, there was this disunity not only that happened between man and God,

but between man and man, but also between male and female. And so I think we're just kind of seeing just this continued manifestation of war between the sexes that the Lord does not like. But Jesus also died to tear down. And so I just think we as a body have to war against that. I just don't think it's, I don't think it's godly. I think what I wanted to say, though, is in the same way that a man has to make the decision to choose out of a place of health and godliness, I also think a woman has to have humility because I think that there are some women who are walking in a degree of self-righteousness.

that is putting them in the position to get rid of men that are actually good, you just think they're not good enough for you. Talk about it. Your little pretty face. Because I've heard that for a lot in the bathroom. Because I've also, I've expressed, before you came, I express how like sometimes I'm not,

you got to pee or something? I got to blow my nose. Oh, okay, I thought you guys. I'm not always privy to like what's like the negative things happening within single women in the thing and so people can feel like I'm beating up on the single men

because I'd be doing all the negative stuff they're doing I'm not around unhealthy single women so I don't be knowing because the ones I'm around are healthy so I don't know but one thing I do know is some of the questions I've heard

it can just come across like yeah he don't really read enough Bible or he doesn't, you know, know a lot of theology or he doesn't make as much money or da-da-da-da-da. And it's like, you want to marry King David. Jesus. But like, but you don't want to marry the David that was anointed but not crowned yet. Like, like you want the crown David, not the shepherd boy David. Who was anointed? Yeah. Just not positioned. And I just feel like that's a part, that's, that's something we need to deal with. And one of the things I heard from my therapist one time, my old therapist, she was talking about how she had a client who was frustrated with her husband.

She had just got married. They was married. I don't know, six months. And she was frustrated with her husband. And she kept comparing her husband to her dad. And she was saying, he doesn't lead like my dad. He doesn't care for me like my dad. He doesn't nurture like my dad.

He doesn't do this like my dad. And she went to her mom and was like, I'm saying, I'm sorry. so frustrated with my husband because she's not like my dad. And she was like, well, that's not fair. She was like, because your dad is not the husband that I married when I married him. He became that. You know what I'm saying? And so it's not fair to compare who your dad is after he's been married for 30 years to who your husband is after you've been married to him for six months. And I think women have to have the humility to say he may not be perfect, but is there some healthy potential there that the Lord actually may be calling me to cultivate. I'm not saying

because there are some men who have no potential and you're just delusional and place and potential there. I'm not saying my dad. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Like he actually ain't got none. He's actually trash. I'm saying, hell man. There might be men who actually have potential there that he's calling. Like there are things in Preston. This isn't shade. This is reality. There were things in Preston that were not going to bear fruit until he married me. And I think that is...

That's actually fact. But that's marriage. That's what it means to be a helper. And so I just, I just, I think we have to, I think some women just have to humble themselves. You want King David. You might have the David in the wilderness, not the David on the throne.

Yeah, but also too, I think, I think when we think about what I want my sisters to do when they think about, you know, is this man capable to leave me or whatever? Because one, you got to think about manhood and also male leadership as a calling, not a job description, right? Because what leadership is, it is a calling. God calls men to be husbands, leaders, not because we fit the job description,

but because he gives us the supernatural power to fulfill that. Right, right, right. And it's a difference. And so if we think about it in that way, we'll stop the thing. Do he fit all the boxes? It's like, no, if God is calling you to him, God is going to empower him to lead to lead. That's just the reality. You know what I'm saying?

So don't know. My wife know 100 scriptures and I know too. It's like, do you know how to walk out those two scriptures you probably can lead her well? Because truthfully, it's fear. Yeah. So you want him to be perfect because you don't want him to fail you. That's, whoo. So he has to fit all the boxes because you're afraid.

You have daddy issues. Yes. Oh, your daddy has failed you. You want that man to be God. Yeah. But the truth is, but the truth is, if God has called you to this man, he's not going to fail you. God ain't going to. He's the one unfailing love.

But ask the question, does he repent? Yeah. Is he teachable? That's right. Is he a part of a local church? He might know two scriptures, but does he love him? Right. Right, right.

Yeah. And that's the thing. You know, we, somebody got on the Q&A and asked that question. She was like, you know, you know, Like, I just kind of feel like me and can't yada, yada, yada, yada, lead me because I know my Bible and these people don't mean. I said, that's probably why you haven't found us yet. Yeah.

Because, because you're looking at how much scripture you know and not how much scripture you're applying. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, your orthopraxy has to kind of match your orthodoxy, but also does his orthopraxy, like, is he practicing what he preaches? Right. You want a man that can love you through hard things. Quoting scripture is good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you want a man that applies that scripture. That's right. who loves you, who loves your children, who, you know, who can pray. You know what I'm saying? So I think a lot of times, especially in the West, we value knowledge so much. We don't actually value doing life and how that scripture has changed us. You know what I'm saying?

I say one more thing and then I want you to say something. I don't have a whole thing. Megan, you got a lot to say. She's like, I'm just here. And in the same- I'm enjoying this. This is great discipleship. In the same way that a lot of y'all, and I say this,

specifically, a lot of y'all are missing the beauty that God is giving through your pastors because you're comparing your pastors to the pastors online. I think you're also missing the beauty that God might have for you in these men because you're comparing these men to people, other people's husband and other people. Like you want your pastor to be, you want this man to act like Phil. Right. You can know what I'm saying? Like you're looking and that's cool. Like I think mature men in the faith should be models. But this man is 25. That man is 45.

This man is 22. That man is 50. You are looking at fruit that has been cultivated for decades. You need to look for seeds, not trees. Are there seeds that I can water? I'm looking for seeds. Seeds, not trees. How y'allahedah?

That's a T-shirt. Preston. bold but can I also say something I wasn't finished I'm sorry go go go go go go go go back no no no

mutual respect seeds not trees go ahead go go go go okay no what I was going to say is the laying down is the laying down is ridiculous

sit up I am submissive hey yo come on I'm sorry I got excited I got excited why I was crazy

oh my goodness She's going to move the mic out the way. I'm going to say, no, seeing people online is actually not, you're actually not seeing all of the fruit. That's right. I think we'd be comparing our spouses to people on stage. It's like, you don't see that man at home. Right.

A lot of times we be, we be like, why you can't be like that? Like a person who's preaching? It's like I'm actually loving you past your attitude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you want a man that's going to love you well. Yeah. But for some. reason you want to compare me to men who you see on 50 second reels every single day on

Instagram. Yeah. That's just unfair. I do think that we have to, we have to just. And can I finish my thought? I love both of y'all. I try five times. I love both y'all.

What I was going to, I'm going to finish it. All I'm saying is I think a part of the comparison that can discourage you from seeing men as they are is that sometimes we conflate spiritual gifting. with maturity when the Lord might be actually giving you a man that has a particular temperament and you're confusing that with a maturity problem. You know what I'm saying? So he might have a shy temperament and you take that as he lacks courage. Or he's weak.

Yeah, like he's passive. No, he's just quiet. Right, right. Right? But you want the rah-rah and the Lord might be calling you to a different, like you might be the ra-rah. He might be giving you balance. And so I just think you need to ask the question of, is this, is this I'm troubled by his temperament?

And I'm confusing his temperament with immaturity. And it's actually not an immaturity problem. It's a temperament discomfort I'm having. I think we need to ask those questions. That's good. That's good. As a shy person, yes and amen. Yeah, that's important.

No, I was just going to say, like, for women or even for men who see people online and be like, oh, why can't you just be, you know, Preston Perry? Well, because you're not Jackie Shouldn't be the standard. You know what I'm saying? Well, I'm just saying it's like you, but they were called. Like they compliment.

Like you said, like their gifts compliment. Like Preston needed Jackie. Like, you know what I'm saying? To cultivate the man that he is today. And so like. And Jackie needed Preston. Yeah, for sure. I was going to get that.

It wouldn't have been a man in the world. That could deal with me. Yeah. But I just, but I'm just saying. And it's like you, you, you like, stop looking at people and idolizing their relationship so much to the point where now you're hindering what God actually could have for you because you're idolizing something that is not for you. That's good. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's like you don't need, maybe you don't need a Preston Perry. Maybe you need, you know, I don't know. You need what you need. You need what you need. Yeah, you need. Yeah. I don't know. Like, just stop idolizing people that you see online.

And two, you also don't even have. have the discipline, you may not have the discipline of what it takes to actually make that healthy. Do you know what I'm saying? Like I know we're able to see you guys behind cameras and what people see. So we know the discipline and the in the in the in the in the in the obedience and the love and the commitment. How much of a piece of work she is bucko? And I'm just playing I'm a piece of work too. We both are piece of work. We're all pieces of work. I'd be trying to provoke my wife. I should stop doing it. It's kind of sinful. But you know what I'm saying?

It's like we see, like I see the integrity and the love and the commitment and the discipline that it takes to make this healthy. And it's like you want something that you don't even have the discipline to carry. You want something that you don't have the discipline to steward. You're wanting this, but you don't. But like, is your prayer life going to be able to sustain something like that? Is your patience going to be able to sustain something like that? So instead of saying I want it, Preston Perry, I want a Jackie. prayer. Lord, pray, like, cultivate in me what I need for the spouse that you have called me to.

Stop making it about what you see online and make it about what the Lord has called you to be and who he's called you to be with. Do you know, does that make sense what I'm saying? Like, I just think, like, stop doing that. That's good. Because you don't know. You would fail. Yeah. If God gave it to you right now, you would fail. Because you don't have it in you. There it is. You just don't. There she goes. Megan, me spanking people. No, because that's, I've been married so I know. I failed.

I wanted the picture and did not have a prayer life to sustain it. I did not have a prayer. I didn't have a relationship with the Lord to even know what it looks like to honor him. I'm going to go to sleep. I didn't have a prayer life or a relationship with the Lord to even know how to love him in spite of his sinfulness. I did not have it. So it failed. So you want something so bad and you're rushing into failure.

Just be patient and allow the Lord. Like, again, circling back. Seeky first the king. them. Like, love the Lord. Let him cultivate in you who you need to be for whatever the Lord brings into your life, whether that's ministry, whether that's marriage, whether it's children. Like, marriage does not make anything better. It makes everything harder. It makes everything harder. And you're rushing to get married and you don't know how hard it actually is. You just don't. Paul talks about it in 1st Corinthians in chapter 7 where he talks about like,

you like being single you're only anxious about the things of the Lord but when you're married now you got to be anxious about the things of the Lord and is and as Negro I don't know what I'm saying I gotta be worried about you know what I'm saying

and you're so anxious in your singleness how in the world would the Lord give you something else to be anxious about you know it's like just relax like it's beautiful but it's a different level of sanctification it's different Both are sanctifications, but it's just different.

So, like, chill, relax. Like, you don't even know what you're asking for. That's good. Sorry, I'm off my tangent. She just went off. And I want to say, and I've had to die to this over the years, pray not so that you could be a good spouse, but pray so that you could be a good disciple. Yes.

I think sometimes we bring the prosperity gospel into relationships. It's like, if I serve the church, if I do all the things God asked me to, then he'll bring my wife, then he'll bring my husband. Last that I checked, I could be wrong, but... You're probably not. Marriage is not a promise. It's a gift. And so if marriage is not a promise, you can't hold God accountable to a spouse. Yeah, that's good. So all these things we're doing, it's not really because we love the Lord, it's because we want a spouse. And we're tricking God. Look, I'm fasting. Yeah, you're the older son in the parable. You're the older son. You're the older son. Literally.

Yeah. You don't really want the father. No. You want with the father has. I love that you say that people often forget that it's about two sons, not one. Yeah. The older brother. Yeah.

Yeah. And so that, that for me has been the thing that I've had to come to realize, like, Lord, you don't, I can't hold you to a spouse. That's good. And so help my faithfulness be because I love you, not because I'm trying to get something from you. Yeah.

And I think that that's like missing in the conversation. I hear it so often at conferences, at churches, and books, like, this is what you got to do to prepare yourself for a spouse. What if this is preparing you to be a lover of the Lord? That's right. Because, I mean, living with eternity, with an eternity mindset, because in eternity, there is no spouse. Do you know what I'm saying?

Like, when this is all said and done, you're not linked up with your spouse. And it's, you know, there is no, like, we're married to Christ. And so I think if we have that mindset, then that's what we're looking forward to. You know, that's what has your affection. It's like at the end of the day, like, I am tethered to Christ through and through. You know what I mean? I think that's, that needs to be our focus. That's great.

Well, man, thank you all, man. This was a great conversation. This is probably one of the longer conversations ever. But it was great. It was fruitful. I had every attention for this to be two hours. I don't know. I had so many other questions.

But that's like, no, no, no, no. It's not. It's like little. Maybe we should do a part two. Oh, this is two parts. I'm saying a part three. I don't know. Say one of them.

No, it's like nuanced stuff. Like when he talked about rejection, like, I think women also need to be discipleable on how I reject a man, reject a man the right way. You know what I'm saying? Like, so it won't hurt him and hurt his feet. Like, I think that's in, I mean, why you just say that earlier, Megan? Well, because y'all were talking. There's so many of us.

Man. So how to reject a man well, like how to turn him down? Yeah, I just think that like women should be disciples in knowing how to do that in a way that is that's gentle, loving, fruitful. Like, if I don't like you, I need to be able to say that in a way that doesn't hurt you. Yeah. Just that go. I'm not going to answer.

I want to add to the question. Ebenezer. I know a lot of men who don't shoot their shot. Because of fear of rejection. And not just fear of rejection. If I shoot my shot and she says, no, then I'm going to be the talk of conversation with her and her friends. I mean, well, you've been to talk. they can talk but then what that does now is is the talking

I was actually leading you to see the person different now like they'll be treated differently yes that was that was that was the thing that popped in my head that was that was that was because I did mute Jackie so so so I told you I did that yeah so you guys get it yeah yeah yeah so that was one of the things that I was going to do is bring that up because One, this is the first thing I'll say. The first thing I'll say is the reason why the red pill community has been so successful is because they appeal, when I say successful, not in a godly way, but just they get so much

that man's attention because they appeal to man's ego because men are motivated by respect. We just are. And so if you let a man down in a way that is not respectful, you will create Andrew Tate. Jesus. You like not saying you You automatically will That's why people like him are created It's because they've been rejected by

Not just rejected But rejected, but rejected in a particular type of way It's not respectful And so I think in the same way Men should handle women with gentleness and care Women need to Need to be taught how to handle men With like respect and honor

You know what I'm saying? Because you know what I mean? And so you can teach you can teach men wrong things about themselves by the way you reject it. And so just have like, don't stroke his ego, but don't disrespect them in the rejection. Is there space? Because I'm, I'm,

is there space what? This is why she's my best, because she knew what I was thinking. I was about to say. Is there space to reject a man in a way, so yes, with gentleness and respect and all the things? like but but also also give observations like here are the things that kind of made me uncomfortable here are the things that you're like this is why I'm saying no yeah I think you should be like feedback yeah like here's some feedback yeah yeah I need you to know that her our last conversation

yeah yeah I I I do our last interaction this is what I observed Yeah, I do think. And maybe you can add on to this because, I mean, you're a past, he got a lot of wisdom. This do got a lot of wisdom. Because my, my, my, my, my issue is, is that because I'm a, like, I'm a corporate, like, I'm a corporate brain, it will come across, like, it will sound really corporate and not personal. Yes. Like, if I give you that, like, like, like, because I'm trying to be so respectful that now it feels impersonal. Well, I think one thing, I think one thing that women have to understand or just, I'm not going to say.

they don't understand it. Probably not grip with the reality. The reality is that men are just as fragile as a lot of women. We're human beings. You know what I'm saying? And so sometimes rejection needs a complimentary sandwich. It needs a, it needs a, you did this. This made me feel uncomfortable.

I'm actually, I don't think I'm the one for you. I'm not ready yet, yada, yada. But you do serve well in this area. And I actually see you being a great husband one day. Like, like, you know, like, I think a lot of men would appreciate that. Like, you serve well in this capacity, you know, and I think that you're a great guy. You know what I'm saying? I just, you're not the guy from me, but it doesn't mean that I think you're ugly.

It doesn't mean I think you're whack or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Because I do think that a lot of men hang there. And I also think that a godly woman can help men, like, tear down how society has told us to accept our man. A society tells us that we're men just as long as a lot of women don't reject us. And so I do think the way we are rejected by our sisters in Christ, it matters. I want to tell myself. You know what I'm saying?

You can build a man up and reject him at the same time. That's right. It's like rejecting like Christ. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because he can't receive you as a romantic companion, but he still can receive you as a sister. That's good. And I think even how a man handles that type of rejection would reveal a lot about his character.

For women, it's like, I think that would reveal a lot of things. You might circuit a block, you know what? Yeah, right. I'm like, we don't know that very well. The way you just responded, showed me like. I will go out with you. That's true. I'm actually attracted to how you said, okay.

You know what I'm saying? What was that? Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, not that way. Like you're not. But I will say this. I will go back to this.

I've heard so many men say They will not approach women because women talk too much They don't want to date inside of the church Because every single time they dated inside of the church Every single woman knew about their business Can I just say for women We got to be mature You got get your one good girlfriend

Treated them a different way They start acting different towards him or whatever. Like I had one moral failure in this relationship. Right, right. And now I'm, and now my character is painted in such a way. Yeah, I don't think 15 people should know. That's what I'm saying. Like, one friend is enough.

But, but what happens is, what happens is a lot of women who are let down or whatever, they don't have the emotional maturity to not slander that man. I think that, I think that's the issue. It's like you don't like them, so you don't want nobody in this community to like them. And he's actually just trying to grow. He's growing. And he's going to make mistakes when he's growing. When he's dating, he's going to make mistakes.

And so I do think that women can be more chatty than men. And I think that can prevent a lot of men from pursuing women. And that's why the Bible, even I think, in Titus, when it even talks about the older women teaching the younger and stuff like that, it's like, it talks about like, no, women be busy bodies, saying stuff they shouldn't be saying. It's like, go do, same way that the men might get caught up in some lust because they ain't doing something. Go do something. That's why I love that your best friends with a single woman that's not messy. We don't need enough. But see, if you wasn't married for, like, maybe you probably would be.

But you know, like, you was messy. I'd be like, okay. No, that's just not even her character. Scram, Bucco. That's not even her character. That's real. Yeah, so. Yeah, I just, I think that that's, I think we both men and women need to be disciples

and how to respond with godliness, with gentleness, with respect, with honor. Because at the end of the day, this is still an image bearer. This is still God's child. And so I need to respond to you in a way. I think for me, I was curious because I can lean into,

like I said, like a corporate tone that could almost come across as like condescending. So I think what you said is helpful to be like, hey, like here's some areas where I think like you're actually really great.

I just think that it might like our temperaments might be conflicting in that way or it may not work for me. But yeah, I just think that that's, we need to know. Because I think how a woman responds to a man, I mean. But I do think being honest with him about the things that you've observed is important because they can help him. If it's done out of a place of love, because the next time he talks to a woman, he has an mind.

And can we also just add a little caveat. I'm sorry. Go for it. Because I just, we got to do better as women, how we are raising our sons, too. I think that that's a big thing, too. And especially for single women raising sons. And I understand the temptation because I am single. And I have three boys.

And boys love their mama. They love their mama. Tell me about it. August, don't even like me half the time. I mean, and it's like as a mother, and then I'm just going to tell them myself, in my context, it's like I'm single, I've been single, their dad is in a relationship and it's a serious relationship. And so the temptation is to just make my sons love me and like make them mama's boys because it fulfills that affection that I'm not getting in a relationship.

And so then you train them to be that way and then they're horrible husbands. Talk about the rude. My goodness. Do you know what I'm saying? Crazy. Like they're terrible, like they're terrible husbands. And so I think, yeah, they're mama's boys where it's like now they're putting their mama over their wives. That means the thing where the mammas be envious of the wives.

Yeah. And it's like now you don't, now your son's wife can't even have a healthy relationship with you because you have disciples your son to make his life all about you. And like, it's weird. And it's like, you know. So I get the sensation. What you're saying is we got a lot of mama's boys in the church. Well.

Yeah, we do. I think that they're out there. but I just think that we as women, like I know that there are probably a lot of single women that probably watch you guys' podcasts and have children and boys. And I think, like, something my mom always said, she was like, I was always raising you

to be the person that you were going to become, to be the wife that you were going to become, the mother that you were going to become, the entrepreneur you're going to become, or, you know, a corporate person, whatever, like, whatever the context is. Like, I was always raising you to be the person that you were becoming.

So women, I think that we also, have to be mindful when we are raising sons that we are raising someone's husband potentially. And so raise them with that in mind. Like my kids, I'm very big on independence. It is not just my job to cook all your meals. It's not just my job to clean your room and to do your laundry. And so that way when they get married, they'll respect and actually honor when a wife does that. But it is not a demand on her to do so because they also know how to take care of themselves. So sometimes if, you know, when you're white, when my kids have, wives if the Lord wills and their wife has just had a baby, they're not freaking out about

what to do for dinner. They're not freaking out about how to do the laundry because they have a mother who has raised them. You take care of your laundry. You take care of your stuff. You clean up after yourself. You do your own. And they ain't so disappointed when they can't function. Yes. Yes. And then when you get a wife that does that, it's like, wow, this is like you enjoy it and you honor it. But you're not like it's not, your love isn't dependent upon it. So I think for women, And like there's a whole, that's a whole other thing, which is how to have single women or women in general, like, even for you, you're married and like how you respond to August. That matters.

Like, as a woman, I just, I don't know, I just think that that matters. That's a good. That's a episode right there. I want to just say, before we end, you, you're not married, but you are newly in a relationship. And the reason why I feel led to say this is because I don't want your, your significant other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He ain't that single. He ain't that single.

Yeah. And so, you know, congratulations on that. And so he is in a relationship. And she is a phenomenal woman of God. I've been able to be around her because we did it. I did a little small tour this summer with Ebenezer. She's a great one. I was just with her a couple of days ago in L.A., so you got a great one.

Appreciate that. That's my decisions, Bucco. Anyways, man, thank you. Thank you all for coming on. This is a great podcast. y'all got a lot of wisdom you know thank y'all man we love you all bye peace with the paris is produced by the paris with support from amanda reed and channing mcbride video recording and audio production by matthew baxter and zavier fairly edited by the team at tread lively artwork by hop and music by swoop

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