With The Perrys - Rebuilding a Broken Marriage with Lymari and Tony Navarro

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

“Our story is a warning to some and a hope to others.” Three years into their marriage, Lymari Navarro got an anonymous phone call from a woman who said, “Your husband is having an affair.” When confronted, Tony told Lymari he had fallen out of love with her, but she chose grace over the Biblical “right” she had to a divorce. The enemy attacks marriages because it is the most accurate relationship to that of Jesus and the church. Marriage shows off the gospel in a way that nothing else can, and the transformational impact of that undeserved grace is on display in the story you’ll begin to hear in this week’s episode. Come back next week for part two of the Perrys’ conversation with Lymari and Tony. The Navarros have benefitted from and speak at FamilyLife’s Weekend to Remember events. Find a location near you: ⁠https://www.familylife.com/weekend-to-remember/ This Episode is Sponsored By: https://timtebow.com/tree-perry/ — Get your copy of If the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow on Amazon today! https://weekendtoremember.com — Save over 40% on any Weekend to Remember now through March 30! https://meetfabric.com/perry — Help protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. You could be offered coverage instantly with NO health exam required! Scripture references: Romans 1 Titus 2:11-12 Connect with the Navarros: https://www.lymarinavarro.com/ https://www.tonyandlymarinavarro.com/⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/tonyandlymarinavarro Check out their book, "From Ruin to Renewal" – https://shop.familylife.com/product/from-ruin-to-renewal/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys. Hello. Greetings. What up with y'all? Howdy. Hey, babe. How you doing today? It's one of them days. Yeah. Incredibly blah. Why you blah, babe? Warfare, hormones, temperament, trauma. I've listened to love how... Sloths. I don't know. Our listen to love how honest you are and our intro is because you... Yeah, I'm not for to act like I'm something I'm not. You know, that's why I married you because you just, you know, it is what you get. Yeah, I had a blood sugar of 57, 30 minutes ago, so there's a lot of things going on.

Oh, it's fine. How is it now? Let's see. I don't know if I had some bacon. This is real time, guys. It might have went on up at 172. Because I had, it was 57, so then I ate some bacon and then like a little thin little bagel with some cream cheese and some eggs. Yeah, yeah.

So I came, came in the closet, and Jackie was just laying on the floor. Lay down on our rug. I said, are you okay? She said my blood sugar is X, Y, Z, so I got down and prayed with her. And she ate a little bacon, and now she's doing a little better. Half better. Anyway, it don't matter. How are you?

You look like Christmas. You do? I knew. So I knew you were going to say something about this outfit. I just didn't know what. It's not the outfit. It's the color scheme. It's the color scheme.

I think any time you put red with grain, it gives December 25th. Yeah, you know what? I saw this jacket, and I was like, it's been cold. You know, in the podcast, a little set or whatever. It's not bad. It's not bad. You just like a present. I am a present.

I'm a gift to you. And you're a gift to me. Speaking of marriage, we want to welcome Tony and Lamarie to, we need to call this place something with the paris. I don't know. How are y'all doing? How are you? Y'all look nice. You got your neutrals on.

Was that on purpose? I didn't even notice. That happens in marriage. You start just kind of coordinating. We've done that so many. times. It was like people going to think we, uh, doing us on purpose. No, we just like similar things. Yeah.

So, you know, them Detroit couples, they always matching. Jesus. I was like, why? Well, all the couples from Detroit always got the same outfit on and getting hers. I don't think they still do that. That was like in the 90s where they would be wearing. No shade if you're from Detroit, but I'm like, like, all always got the same jogging sweats on.

Go ahead. Help us. Man, so I, we, we haven't met you guys, like, formally and person, but I feel like, you know, we know you guys because we've heard so much, especially about Limati. Because, did I say it right? You said it right. Yes, Limati.

Leamadi. That's right. Because our mentors, Melody and CD, if you're not, you know, if you're familiar with this podcast, you've seen Melody and CD on here a bunch of times, they're like very good friends of ours, mentors of ours, and Limati and Melody, Fabi and our best friends. And so they told us about you guys' stories so much. And so I kind of feel like I already know you. And y'all fellow Chicagoans.

That's right. You know what I'm saying? Which is why when they came in, they brought me. If you know, you know. Yeah, we need to get an ad. They need to give us a check. Yeah, man. So Garrett's, share this with Garrett's popcorn.

Tell them, you know, like, I was sponsored them all the time for free popcorn. But this is a Chicago staple, so I appreciate the gift. You know what I'm saying? Very, very kind of you guys. I'm going to eat that later on with my kids. But yeah, we want to just talk about you guys' story. You guys' story have blessed so many people. Melody and CD have told us about your story a bunch of times.

And so I don't know how we want to just jump into this. I think we probably should just jump right into it. Maybe you have any questions, babe. I mean, maybe we should find out how y'all met. Yeah. Because you've been married. The back of the book says, what, 28 years? Yeah, 28 years.

It's going to be 29 years in April. That's a long time. Yeah. And so how did all this start? Yeah, so we met in the hood of Chicago. Okay. We like to call ourselves hood hearts. Okay.

Yeah, because we literally grew up two neighborhoods, two streets away from each other and kind of had similar friends, but started dating when I was, I liked him at 14, but he didn't notice me. And then at 16, we started talking, and then we got together. We broke up, and then I ended up getting pregnant at 17 from a different relationship. And then we got back together. And then he raised our son. And after that, we had a lot of kids.

But you could share your part of the... Yeah. Well, you can tell them, two blocks from each other. So if you're from Chicago, you know that in the city they call them some blocks. And so we used to see each other on the CTA bus. And she would go to a different school, but we were taking the same... the same street. And I knew that I liked her, but her brother was like, one of them dudes that was like, hey, you touch my sister. I'll end your life. That's a good brother. I was messing with my daily

life. I don't want to mess with her. And so, but still, she was so different, so beautiful. And I used to always say, hey, I'm when I knew she was going to be early, you know, sometimes they give you those first periods or you get there super early at school, I said she's going to be there on the bus. So I would get all decked out as much as I could. Hood, get my Jibos on, get some like shirts on, get that Fahrenheit on. And I just wanted to impress her because I really did like her, but I was kind of scared of her brother at the same time. Yeah.

But luckily, though, she made the first move. I did. I can say, you know, it wasn't me. It was all her. But yeah, it's been ongoing since then. Out of curiosity which hood? Humble Park, Little Village. West Side, we're from Humble Park.

Humble Park. Hersch and Holman. That was the cross street Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you met Brian Dye before or no by Ryan Dye. That's why I met Brian Dye. In Humble Park?

Yeah, midnight. Really? Yeah, when I was 17. I used to hoop in humble heart. Hoop in Humble Park with this guy named Marcos. Okay. That's my name. Oh, your name is Marcos?

Oh, that's your real name. Yeah. That's crazy. So this redeemed gang member named Marcos, he knew a dude who laid me to Christ named Gary. And he would, he had a church. and on the top floor of the church in Humble Park, he would like take all the little hood dudes

and we would hoop upstairs. And that's the first day that I met, I met Brian Dye at midnight in Humblebark on New Year's Eve. Oh, wow. You know what's interesting about that is that our church, which was in Humble Park, right? Our pastor opened up the gym. And that's how a lot of these people from,

like, you know, gang bangers and all that were getting saved. They were hearing the gospel because he was opening up, you know, just where they could play basketball. And so we were a part of a move that God was doing within the inner city of Chicago where a lot of people that we hung out with that were, you know, dealing, doing all these things were getting transformed. And it was through this man who decided to, you know, go to the hood and preach the gospel. So when y'all met, were you believers?

No. Okay. What was, what happened? So we, when we got together and we got back together, we started having babies, we started living together. I was about 19 years old when I had a fallout with my mom, and I ended up moving into his apartment. And from there, we stayed together. And I got pregnant with our oldest son, Marcos, our second oldest son, Marcos. And we started just playing house.

And my mom started going to church. And my mom's cousin, which I called her my aunt because she was older, you know, in the Puerto Rican, you know, culture. You call the older people like your aunt, your uncle. And so she started trying to invite me to church. I don't want nothing to do. I didn't want anything to do with God. And so I would be like, no. And so she bribed me.

She said, well, Mother's Day is coming up and they're going to honor all. all the moms, you should go. And I was like, so me and my sister went reluctantly. And then I heard about Jesus for the first time in this small church. I was 21. We had already two kids. I was pregnant with our third. No, I'm sorry. Pregnant with the second one. I was pregnant with our second. I'm about saying, you fertile. Very fertile. Good, that's crazy. Yeah. Extremely fertile. So I'm pregnant with our second son. And I go to this. church and I hear about Jesus and I'm broken. But at this point, I had been, I called myself a shell of a woman because I was looking for love in all the wrong places. I was raised in a single mom home.

And my dad left really early, really young. And so I looked for love in all the wrong places. That's how I ended up pregnant at 17. And so, yeah, I walked into this church, heard the gospel. my heart was pricked. I did not come back until another month later where my cousin was sharing his testimony. He asked me to come. He was going to get baptized, share his testimony. So I ended up going with him.

I ended up going, and I remember being there fighting with God at the pulpit, at the, yeah, the pulpit, in the pew, I'm sorry. And just fighting the Lord, but I could feel God's love. and his kindness drawing me. And the first thing I thought, like, is like, if you knew everything I've ever done,

you wouldn't want someone like me. Like, that was my initial thought. Yeah. And yet I could feel that he knew everything and he was calling me. And so I went up to the altar with my heels on. Okay, girl. I was the only one that went up.

I could hear. I said, God, if you want me, you're going to have to make me go up there. By the time I knew it, I was walking down the altar. And I went there. And I, A miracle happened in my heart.

I used to have a sailor mouth. That was the first thing God took for me. It was my vocabulary, the way that I used to speak about everyone. Everyone was a bleep, bleep, you know, that's just the way I was raised. Yeah, me too. And so then I go home and I tell him, I just gave my life to Jesus. And he said, that's nice. That's nice.

As long as God don't interfere with our relationship, I'm fine. Wow. And I would start going. I started going on Sundays. I started going on Wednesdays, prayer nights. I was going all the time. I was like I had an insatiable hunger for God's word to know about who I was and who he was. And as I started reading the scriptures, as I started hearing from the Popeye, what God was saying about marriage, about life, my life was in stark contrast to what I was hearing.

Wow. So I came home and I said, we got to stop having sex. And he said, what do you mean? Whoopsie! The story of Easter is the most beautiful story ever told, but sometimes because we know it so well, we move quickly past it and forget what it actually cost. If the tree could speak written by Tim Tebow invites you to experience the crucifixion from a perspective no one has ever heard from the tree itself.

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another perspective. And I think that that's what this book does. So step inside the story of the crucifixion. Hear the witness and experience Easter like never before with if the tree could speak available on Amazon. I encourage you. We encourage you to check it out. If the tree could speak by Tim Tebow available in Amazon or see the link in the show notes. She got my attention then. It was everything was I felt like at the the time was cool because she was getting out of my hair. It was, she left me alone and she wanted me to go, but it was like, I don't want to be part of that. It's good for you. That's okay, but it's not for me. And at the time, underneath everything, too, this is the time I was high every day, right?

I was getting high by myself, so it wasn't party high. It was like just being high. I wanted to be alone. I had a group of people that I was tied to that tethered to in a sense that I didn't feel like I can give up at this time. And so I didn't want to really stop what things are going in my life. But when she said, we're going to stop having sex, I was like, well, what's going on with that? What is this? I mean, I never heard of that before.

And she's like, well, yeah, I'm a princess. Like, I'm God's daughter. That's right. You deserve to be married. And I was like, what? Who's feeding you this garbage, right? And I decided to go to church, not to go to seek the Lord to see who does. was sharing all this stuff to my girl and causing her not to want to have sex with me. And so I went

there to the church high. I went high that day. And when I went in there, it was like people hugging and hot and house was like back off, don't touch me kind of thing. And I wanted to sit in the back. And she's like, come here. And she's like has a seat all the way in the front. Like she wants to be all the way in her front. And I'm just like, man. And so we're ready to have a fight there just about where we're going to sit at. And but then I started listening. And I hear this man share the gospel. And I'm like, I know I was raised Catholic. I knew that Jesus was part of God or was God to see the cross.

I marry all these things, the religious part of it. But that was for me. Wow. You're talking to me? And so I remember the wooden pews that we were at, I'm standing there. And I'm ready to like rip the wood apart. Like just I'm grabbing it. because I really feel like the Lord was knocking on my heart in a sense.

But I was angry because I'm like, I wanted to come in here and change things. I didn't come here to be changed. Wow. And so I didn't do the altar call experience and all that. It took a month. It took a few months. It took a few months. And met the pastor.

He embraced me, gave me a hug. I was like, all stiff. It's like hugging me. And I'm like, that awkward hug. You should off of me. Yeah. Get off of me, man. I don't want to love you, but it was

something was an imprint on me that day. And we went back and there was still frustration because I didn't really want to go back. I didn't want to give my life to the Lord and we'd have these arguments here. And she would play like Christian rap. Back then the Christian rap was kind of rough. Oh, yeah.

She'd playing in in the other room. Because it's the 90s? In this room doing something. And then she'd leave the scriptures open and doing it. She was playing a gospel gangsters. Yeah, I was. Yeah. I don't know who was probably in.

The gospel game. I used to hear stories about them. I'm like, man, I'm so glad I didn't grow up in any of them. I don't give names of the rappers. They were trying, though. But yeah, it took months later. But I came to that, I came to a place of surrender because I was like, Lord, this ain't working. What I'm doing, what Tony's doing, it ain't working.

I'm trying my best. And nothing's working. I'm still messing things up, right? Yeah. And so I went in faith. And I said, Lord, I'm, whatever needs to happen. happen next, you know? Yeah.

Let it happen. And when you're, I'm going to call it an addict, when you're an addict, you're thinking, like, but I'm going to get high right after this. Yeah. Like there's no way to function without being high. If you don't mind me asking, like, what type of high? Was it marijuana? Was it?

No, it was more than that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And drugs are even, nowadays, we have a great recovery group at our church. And it's just the things that they say with drugs are now. It's like, it's like, oh, I didn't even heard that. before because it's kind of evolved into new drugs, but still the same effect where it just

keeps you captive. The reason why I asked, I grew up in the hood my whole life and, you know, everybody in my family smoked weed, including me, like, you know, except my mom. She was the only person my family smoked weed, and I know the heart of the drug is, the deeper the spiritual stronghold is, you know, and so that's just a testimony within itself that God's, because a lot of people don't even come out of doing drugs at all. And I'll just, say that I didn't know, I thought it was just weed. I didn't know that he had started hard drugs. And he's a miracle because his, you know, his father struggled with drugs, his, you know, family members. So he literally is a chain breaker. His dad was a great man, like we loved him so much.

but he was just struggling with this demon that really took a lot of, a lot from him. It robbed a lot from him. So I had no idea that he was where he was at. Wow. What were you trying to numb? I mean, we're so aware these days. There's just this hype and awareness of like our lives, our emotion. And even when I share sometimes some stories with my kids are like, that's not okay.

And I'm just like, but that's the way it was. That's just the norm. You know, when you go to school, worried about what colors you're wearing, where you're going to be dragged off the bus, where you're going to be killed or shot, and it's just like, but you still, you're still trying to make A's, something, a B, D, anything, right? I made some kind of effort, but the battle even to get to school to stay within even the neighborhood was rough.

It was just like, that doesn't just go away because Jesus entered in my heart, right? It's a process after that to start believing that you're free. walking like you're free redeemed, right, and walking in the spirit's power. But it's like I had a lot of those areas that I was trying to, yeah, cope with. But then it just becomes like, it calls you. I mean, you're sleeping, thinking about it. And it calls you in the morning. Then you can't even function, right, without it.

And so when you're thinking, like, I need to surrender all. I'm thinking, I got to surrender to the drugs then, right? And not only that, but there was this, again, I was making money, let's just saying, with things as well. So it's like I'm thinking holistically everything has to change in my life like everything. And so

the drug part though the addiction, God removed the taste and the need for it like overnight. Wow. And that's not everybody's story. Yes, yeah. That's not everybody's story.

But the taste for it didn't stop the deceptive heart, the lying tongue, right? The coping mechanisms turned it to other things. And so in this process though, when I share this week, even people that are going through recovery and stuff, I say, but you're still going to need accountability in your life.

You're still going to need to replace what you were going to. That was your source. Now let's go to Jesus. Let's go to His Word. Let's allow it to start renewing your mind and start renewing your heart and start making these changes. But you have to stay like, it's a totally different lifestyle. But then again, we're talking about Christians.

Isn't that supposed to be a totally different lifestyle too? Why is it? I always ask myself, why is it that it's only for like the recovery group? Yeah. This should be for everybody's good. We all should be looking at life totally different, right? We'll be aware of how we can fall up again. But in that season, though, it was, I felt for the first time I told my wife the next morning,

we're in the city of Chicago, a basement apartment, and I literally can hear the birds when I woke up in the morning. And I was like, it was just a different piece. I wasn't angry or anything. thing. I wasn't running to see, okay, let me go warm up the car so I can hide and get high. It was like something's different. Yeah, that's beautiful. Really different. And so that started the journey of like the rebuilding process for me individually. I think everybody has to go through of, okay, you're the Lord, right? I'm your son. I'm your servant. Like what's next? Like what do I need to do

next and trying to figure that out. And then not, you know, reading the Bible was even tough because it was, I didn't read books. I didn't want any of your books in school. Yeah. You know, I started reading, you know, every time I go to church, you want me to read again, read, read, read. So it was this whole process of just changing everything about your day, about your mornings, I mean, about the whole thing. And, and again, she was having our son, and I needed to get jobs.

Like, I couldn't just make it off a one. So I needed to get jobs. So I'm hustling, trying to get, you know, working restaurants for fast cash and other things. I end up going back to school for trade. And so I'm a tradesman. But I just wanted to be able to provide for my family without thinking the easy way, looking for the easy way. We had a chance to go to a weekend to remember. And it was a blessing for us.

For me, I thought it was dope to see so many married couples from all walks of life, from all ages. Yeah, coming together to work on their marriage. And it's so important to pause and to work on your marriage to look your spouse in the eyes, to ask your spouse hard questions to connect. And so I think family life is doing a great work of providing space for couples and married couples to connect and be one again. Whether your marriage feels strong or a little worn down by life or a little worn now, we understand.

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That is right. A couple can attend any event for less than $200. So head to Weekend to Remember.com today to find your getaway. I'm curious to know about the timeline because I heard you say eight months. It was eight months later. And so, like, I'm assuming that you didn't hear the birds the next morning. Like, was it the next day after you went to church the first time or how many months passed? Well, I want to just say this because I was just, as you said that, I was like, wow, I should talk about this.

I don't, I feel the Lord just saying to talk about this. But when he got, when he heard the gospel for the first time, he would come to church with me ever so often whenever he felt like it. So I started praying for him. And I'm like every Sunday before he got saved, I will go to the altar, broken in your seating. And I'm like, Lord, grab him, God draw him, God show him. And he'd be in the pew just, and he had no idea that people at the church were praying for him. Our small group was praying for him.

It was a smaller church. And then the Lord told me, I want you to fast for him. And I remember coming home, I was pregnant. And he would do things. Like, I know what was the enemy. So how are you fast pregnant? Oh, I was fasting. Oh, okay.

That's different. I was desperate. Okay, yeah, you were. The baby was desperate to him. I was safe. My daddy. You know, I wasn't doing seven days. I was very young.

So my brother at the time, who was a believer at the time, my that's a different story but um he was like I feel like you should start fasting and I was like what's fasting I had no idea you know I'm everything's new to me and he's like you're just you know not eating and and I was like I think I could do like a day maybe a couple hours and so I started with what I had but I would take moments of fasting to pray for him yeah um friends though were fasting for him, like literally refraining from food. And so I'm praying for him. And as I'm praying, I could hear the Lord.

I'm begging the Lord. Like, Lord, I would go to church. I see men worshipping. I'm like, God, I want a man like that. I want that. And God is like, okay, just keep praying. And I was like, yeah, but that's not Tony. Like I'm going home and the guy's in the back, you know, in the laundry room smoking

weed with his brothers. Like I'm like, that's not what I want to come. come home to. That's not what I want my kids to be raised up. And I'm crying out to Lord. Yeah, I'm putting, he would be smoking and I would turn on the speaker. Like I would blast it with the Christian rap. I'm like, Lord, speak to him. Like, you know. And I remember just saying, I'm done. I'm going to leave. Like, I can't do this. And then he wrote me a card. And I, in the card, he says, don't give up on me. And he put a picture of, sorry, I'm not going to get emotional,

but he put a picture of my belly. And he said, I want to be the man that you want me to be. I just don't know how. And I just started praying. And when he surrendered his life to the Lord, the church was rejoicing. When I say, like, his best friend, who was a smoking buddy, was standing next to him. and I looked over at his friend,

and his friend looked like, we lost him. Wow, we did. He's done, you know. Wow, that's so beautiful. So I'm already crying. It's all good. I was trying not to.

We welcome tears over here. Okay, good. But I wanted to share that because there's some people who are, God is doing a work in you, and you're praying for the person that you love. You're walking, you're encountering, what they're going through,

and it hurts you. There's some things we can't change only through prayer. Can we change it? Remember the Holy Spirit telling me as I'm praying, I'm like, God, why won't he come to you? And God says, because I like what's happening between me and you. I like your desperation. I like that you're coming to me. I like that you're bringing me everything.

And I was like, oh, like something's happening in intimacy with me and the Father. And so when he did come to the Lord, he had no idea. but in the background, there were a lot of saints praying for him. And so it was from the first time he went, like for eight months, he would do, and this is another thing. Like on a Sunday, I'm getting ready, got my kids ready, going to church, and then he's getting ready. And he'll do things like, he'll be like, you know what, I'm not going to church today. I'm like, what? And I'm like crying.

Like, how am I going to get to church? I will walk to church. And I would because he would do just little things that the enemy would just use. or one time he's at the table and he's like, I was thinking, you know, it's not that bad if I go to hell. I was like, what? I'm like, he would say these things. And then I would be like, Lord, show him.

And then somebody gave him like a daily bread. You remember the daily bread? Oh, yeah. He opens it up and it says, you don't even want your worst enemy to go to hell. And he was like, like, God was speaking to him in little ways. So God was faithful behind the scenes to be drawing Tony. Yeah. while we were praying.

Go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I love you guys' story. I grew up in Chicago, and years ago, you know, not just drawing Tony, but just drawing both of you guys. Because years ago, I had wrote this poem. And in the poem, I said, when God saves a soul from the hood, I imagine the angels rejoicing a little different. Some people didn't like that.

That's just the way I felt when I wrote it. Because you talk about, Jackie asked you a great question. Like, what was you coping with? Like, what was you trying to, with the drugs? And it's a lot when you, when you, when you, when you, you're, you're, you're you grew up in the hood, a lot of emotional trauma, a lot of, yeah, generational trauma, all of the things, you know, you're thinking about, man, am I going to make it home today? And so for God to, like, reach down in all of that mess and to grab you guys out, you know,

and then also to, you know, keep you guys together, it's just a huge testimony. It's inspiring. I used to be in Humble Park. I know what it's like over there. And so that's just super inspiring to me. Yeah, I imagine that at some point conversations about marriage came up where it's like, all right, we should probably, you know, do Ephesians 5. Like, who initiated that conversation? How did it go?

Because I mean, y'all are functionally behaving as one, but not like in covenant. Well, obviously working with our pastor, walking with our pastor and the elders, the conversation started coming up. It wasn't like a force. Like you got to get married. And it was like, we need to relook at this. This is what the scriptures talk about with marriage and what you're doing is in sin. And I thought about that, you know, even when the first time I sat down with our elders to talk about it. And not in like a board meeting kind of way.

It was just like having conversations here and there with their women. Yeah, the leaders. They're all sharing the same message, this truth. And I'm just like, you had to come to the point where you're also thinking, okay, marriage is, even though I didn't entertain the idea of being married. at the time. But when you think about marriage, the matter if you're believing as a believer or not, you know, there's a big commitment there. Right. And so I'm thinking about the commitment to, have we just been together because of our kids? Is it like, is it just has been easy to just grow on each other? Is this really the woman that I want to marry? Can I marry? Am I going to mess up and

not make it? Marriages don't last and all these other types of things are coming up or thoughts in my mind. but I remember the saying like Lord No she's a woman that I want I want to be with And marriage is actually a statement of faith It's a declaration of faith Because you're believing that the person that you're vowing to Is a person that you're vowing to

But you know 10 years, 15 years, 20 years On the road, sometimes it's a totally different person That you married, you know And that's because we're all growing Hopefully we're growing and we're changing or something's come up physically that we didn't foresee. And so I'm believing, I said, Lord, this is the woman for me. So we had no money, but the church put together a potluck.

I love that. Right? We, after the announcements in closing prayer, they played it on the piano. Yeah. And here we are walking down the aisle. And everybody that came that Sunday was invited. And we had a mixtape for us downstairs in the fellowship hall. And we're slow jamming downstairs in the fellowship hall.

and having rice, chilettas, I mean, all that kinds of good stuff that Puerto Ricans love. And people donated flowers and a person donated like a hotel for us in downtown Chicago. We just walked by a Billy Gold Tavern

when we were in the airport. Billy Gold. And I was like, that's where we went to for our first dinner together as husband and wife was the Billy Gold Tavern. And I'm like, not so, it sounds so romantic right now,

but back then, I mean, everything was just new to us. And so it was, it was a big chance. change, but we got married, out of conviction. They didn't want to live wrongly before the Lord. And we took a leap of faith to say that this is what we want. This is what we really want.

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not available in certain states. Prices is subject to underwriting and health questions. I've always really been curious about couples who kind of exist in a marital space without covenant. Like, you know, sleeping together, living together, kids together, and then becoming married. Is the dynamic? Does it change? Does it feel different? Because there's a different blessing on the union now. You know, I think there's a different favor on the union.

Did you feel that or did it feel like, oh, we just, you know, we're just married now? No, definitely, that's the one thing is that marriage does come with a blessing. but it also comes with warfare. Yes. So we, it's kind of, and you say, you have a really good quote about it, but about warfare and marriage, about when you get on the,

I'll let you interject. About the ship? Well, I'll just say this, that we know this now, but we didn't know, we didn't have the language for it. But we believe that when you are in covenant, you are in right standing with God.

Just like as you are in, receiving Christ, His blood is sacrificed, you're in right standing with God. So when we, as a couple, though, we are now married. We are in right standing with God, right? So what happens is that if you look at the scriptures and you look at in Genesis, God created the first marriage, right? Everything was good. They had great fellowship together.

They didn't have to work. They had food. They didn't get sick. Life was good. But literally after chapter 2, chapter 3 comes the first attack, which is actually against marriage. And so Satan, more craftier than anything else created. And so he deceives them. And so right away, you start to see that there's shame, there's guilt, there's fear,

and there's blaming, right? Adam's over here blaming God for giving him Eve. He's not taking ownership of that. I mean, so you see just a mess happen within the first three chapters of Genesis, right? And so I tell people is that when you're not in the right covenant with God in your marriage, you're actually on the wrong side. So why would the enemy want to make? to mess it up.

Because people say that, man, I've been with this woman for 10 years. Now I get married, we can't get along. Yeah. Because you're on the right side now. And we never want to give people the impression that marriage is a cruise ship, it's a battleship. You're now suited up together. We're going to war to keep the oneness together,

that we can live this out because the enemy is coming after us and culture is coming after us. And then like I said earlier, there's also the battle within us is coming out. Because I don't know why God did this. but Lamaradi has superpowers that she can turn me up in anger without even saying a word. I could push his button.

She can just give me this look and I'm like, man, that's marriage isn't it? And it's like, he takes people, all kinds of others, but my wife does know how to get me and then she can also say something that makes me feel like Superman. Like I can conquer the world. Like I can go after this.

And so the way that he has designed marriage, I feel like it's also this incubator stage of like, we're going to speed up the process of sanctification in this relationship. Because what you've been putting off in your singleness, we're going to have to address marriage. Just how selfish you are. You find out how selfish you are when you share a space with someone, right? Oh, yeah.

And so you find out like the things inside of you that God wants to trip away at in marriage. And so when we did get married, married, I thought we were doing it. and okay. You know, I thought we were in a good place. But then definitely, uh, the warfare was raised up in our marriage and, and some things happened three years in our marriage. Yeah, the enemy doesn't attack, uh, his own. You know, I never forget. We did marriage counseling years ago. And this lady, she was kind of in our group and she said, uh, when you're out of marriage, the devil wants you in everybody's bed. When you're in marriage, you don't even want you in your own. You know, you just attacks

Intimacy With married couples all the time It's interesting because when you're not married And the temptation to have sex is just there Or you're just having amazing sex, right? It's lust. Then you get married and it's like, oh, I don't want to have sex anymore. Like that's very distorted.

But when you think about it though You know, like even before you guys told about like told us about your spiritual warfare in marriage, what you told us is your gospel story about how the Lord drew you. And our reason why, the real reason why the enemy attacks marriage is because marriage is the most accurate,

like relationship we can have to actually depict that gospel story. Like it is, it literally is a picture of Christ, loving this church. Yeah. And that representation in the world, I don't think people realize how huge it is.

Yeah. Especially in a world where marriage is, just don't work at all. And so if the world can see a gospel marriage working, it just shows off Christ to the world in a way that nothing else can. And so the devil just don't hate the marriage because of marriage.

He hates the marriage because of the gospel. You know what I'm saying? It points to something greater than us. It's Christ. Love in his church. I think a thing that really does affect the way we show up in marriages is the expectations

that we've gotten from the world, you know, because I think when you consider, I probably said this before, when you consider how we're cultivated to think that marriage is all romance, all butterflies from Disney movies to music, that when there is some type of disruption, you start to immediately say,

is this the right person? Did I make the right decision? I don't need, I don't have to take this. Like you start to look for ways and options to get out instead of realizing, no, this is a part of the package. package. Like, this is a part of the thing. You know what I'm saying? And I think those expectations

actually set us up for greater disappointment. And so it's like, we have to be, this is for everybody listening. We have to be informed by the scriptures. We just have to. And particularly, we have to be informed by how God does covenant. You know what I'm saying? Like, God is faithful to unfaithful people. God is pursuing. Like, like the way he shows up with us is the way God expects us to show up in our reality. And that's hard, but possible in Christ. And that's hard. But possible in Christ. Yeah, I'm still what you said, that, you know, marriage is not a cruise ship, it's a battleship. They don't like that. That's so true, you know, because I think what Jackie just said, I think the world conditions us, I think, is some type of cruise ship.

For sure. And how, how better would it be, I think, if we had more. More, more Christians preparing. Disney crews. Preparing Christians, young Christians for the realities of marriage, you know. You said three years into marriage, something happened. What happened? So three years into marriage, I thought everything was doing, we were doing well.

And then I got a phone call from a strange woman. I don't know who she was. And to this day, I don't know who she is, who called me and said, your husband, Marcos, is having an affair. And then she hung up the phone. And so his name is Marcos. That's what he goes by at work. So nobody calls him Marcos unless you work with him. Everyone calls him Tony.

And the government knows him as Marcos. And I like to call it, or I call it the demo day of our marriage. It was when this wrecking ball came swinging into what I thought was a beautiful home, even though there was a lot of things behind the walls that were eroding. And God would eventually show us those things. And then I called them. and I said, you got 15 minutes to get home, or I will show up to your job.

Listen, with all three of your kids. Real Humble Park, would it? Yeah. But you didn't tell them, you didn't tell them why. Oh, I told him, I heard that you're cheating on. Yeah, I did tell him that. And I said, you got 15 minutes to get home and explain yourself. And he showed up, and there at our kitchen table, he tells me,

I'm not having an affair. he's like, but I've fallen out of love with you. And those words are devastating to hear from the man that you love. Like, when did that happen? How did that happen? When did you stop loving me? And so I grabbed our kids and I'm, well, I grabbed, I didn't even grab my kids at that time. I just left the house.

I'm a runner. So I just left and I went to our church. And my pastor was there. and I told him what was happening. You had a pastor, pastor. I had a pastor pastor. That's a blessing. Yeah.

You know how many people? He was like a spiritual dad to us. We'd go to church and the pastor. Like you don't have that access? That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of them are bivocational. Yeah, that's beautiful.

So he, you know, he set up a meeting for us to meet in his office. And I called Tony and I said, if you want to salvage what's left of our marriage, you need to show up to the pastor's office. and let's have a conversation. Yotter. Yeah, Amari called me and she told me I know that somebody said that you're having an affair

on me over there at work, it was like my heart dropped. And it was like everything just, I couldn't hear nothing. It just kind of was like, time stopped, you know what I'm saying? And I knew that I had to get home, though. I said, I got to get home.

And so I rushed out of work, went home. And then I was paying damage control, like trying to not make it. It's big, but not, you know what I'm saying? You're trying to prevent it from going from zero to 100. And then we look at it now, our marriage now, and what we were at at that time three years ago to our marriage, it wasn't still healthy. We thought a little bit, it wasn't.

And our blowups were like the telenovelas, like those Spanish soap operas that are just, I'm over here really trying to let it out slowly. And that was actually the way I felt that. I did feel like I didn't love this woman anymore. And so she tells me to go to the pastors. Now I'm feeling already, oh, the pastor's got to know, right? But at the same time, I'm also believing that this is a good place because we need

a third party that's going to be able to get through this conversation. There was no way we're going to be able to do this on our own. And so got the kids and took them over to a sitter and went to the church and started talking with Lamati and pastor in his office. Yeah. And they started asking the same questions that she was asking. And I remember our pastor having such a great pace, grace to him that he's just like, he's just telling me, come on, Tony. Just get it out, bro. Yeah.

Just get it out. I know. There's more, yeah, just to say it. I said it. I said, yeah, I'm having an affair and she fell to the floor. She was just screaming and crying and, and I know she wanted to put her hands on me, too, because she was just really upset. I was pretty violent. Yeah, she was really upset. But the rawness of that, like I started to see, wow, how much just really, really has hurt her, you know? And that's not even, that's just the tip of the iceberg. That's not even the whole thing, you know. And so

the pastor didn't put it in her court. said, Lamarie, what do you want to do? Yeah. And so when I heard those, that confession, I, so I was raised again, like a single mom who would date different men, men would come in and out of her life. And so I had vowed to myself, I'm not going to let a man hurt me. I've seen my mom get cheated on. I've seen my mom get hurt. And I had told Tony, if you ever cheat on me, like, that's it.

We're done. I'm not going to be that person. And so I was thinking about that. I was thinking about so many things. I was thinking about like, when? When did this happen? Like where was I? Now, mind you, I'm raising three kids.

Like, you know, life is just like sucking the life out of me. Like I'm just trying to maintain, you know, my sanity. So I didn't have any idea this was happening. And so I got up. I was, you know, I'm crying, but then I got up. And I just wiped my tears and I was just angry. And I looked at my pastor and I said, doesn't this mean I can get a divorce?

Isn't this grounds for divorce? And I didn't know a lot about the scriptures, but I think I read somewhere, you know, one day. And I was like, that was the first thing, you know, that I could reference. And he looked at me and he said, you're right. You have the right to divorce him. And he said, there's another option. The other option is grace.

And I just thought about, like, it's almost like in that moment when he said the word grace, it like, God took me back to the first time I heard the gospel. God took me back to that moment of where I was standing guilty. I can't explain it other than it was the Holy Spirit, guys. Wow. Because the Holy Spirit becomes the impetus, right? Like he's the gut reaction when he's living in you that I said, I choose grace, pastor. And it was like, it came out of my mouth.

And now saying it and living it, that's two, you know, that's two different things. But it was my first reaction to say I choose grace. And I think about my pastor. Like every moment I could see how God was strategically putting people saying things or like putting us in place. where we would hear the right thing. That's good. And I was even telling Tony, even how he supernaturally just brought certain people

into our lives during this season, like it was all working together. That's beautiful. Like beautifully. I want to rewind for a second just because I think it would be helpful. Tony, what was happening in you in your relationship with God

that kind of opened the door for the adult? adultery. That's a great question. So I want to say this. When people hear our story, it's like, that's not me. We haven't had an affair. We're not that off, right? And so I like to say that I'm a warning to some and a hope to others, you know, because when you start to drift in your relationship with the Lord, wasn't having my time with the Lord in the mornings, wasn't listening anymore to Christian rap. wasn't spending time in fellowship, wasn't doing, it wasn't really serving as much as I was before as well. I was slowly pulling apart, looking at career as,

that's what I need to be doing. I need to grow in this company. I need to like take it to the next level. I need to show them that I'm, that I'm your guy. And so I started to really put all of my coins into career-wise. And to me, how old were you?

Not to, because at the time was only 22, 22, 22-year-old? Okay. 23, man? 23, yeah, I think of us. Yeah. 2000.

But when you're in the, when you're living the hood, that's like, that's an old man. Yeah, you're 32. Twenty-two years old. That's like, man, that guy is still banging. And it's like, at 23, we have kids already. I'm like, this is, you're growing man. Build a life now, yeah. And so I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this.

And, you know, I just stop hearing from God. I just didn't hear his voice anymore. I was, when I go to church, it was kind of like I'm more concerned about when the bearers play. and, you know, what time we're going to get out of here and what we're going to eat, you know, even during prayer. And I just wasn't like, I was critical on a lot of things. And so I was distant. I was really far off from him. And so it made it easier to start making the choices that I said I wasn't going to do again, little at a time, interaction with women, what I went for lunch, what I was doing after work, who I was hanging out to, who I wanted to, like, joke around with.

I mean, all those different things where I was like, man, I'm back to, I feel like I'm back to square one again, you know, even worse, because I'm thinking of things that I didn't think about before. Wow. And so that process, though, was, you know, even when she said, I grace you, it was still like, in my head, I was already believing I'm the weekend dad. I'm going to go live at moms, you know, I'll just come pick them up on the weekends, be there for their sports games or something and move on with somebody else, you know. And so when she said, I choose grace, it stopped my mind, like, just had like a crack in it. Like, boom, it just like opened up. And I'm like, wait, I might. Is this still going to happen?

Like, are we still going to be married? And I get to go home. I mean, it's like all these things are starting to like play in my mind. And it was, if it's, if you were to record, it was kind of awkward because there was like dead silence at times we were in the office. where both of us are processing things. But yeah, it was, okay, there's something here. I started to feel again, like I felt three years before that, in a sense it's those daily hopes of like something can change here, you know.

But still couldn't see it though. Yeah. The reason, I want you to speak to this real quick, because the reason I ask that question is because I think a lot of people think that falling, adultery, the big stuff happens overnight. And people can think, oh, my partner is the reason I did the things when really the fundamental issue is you and God first. You know what I'm saying?

And so I guess you pressing in your history with just walking with men and your life with God, I guess what is your challenge encouragement when it comes to preserving intimacy as a of preserving, like, integrity? Yeah, I think it's vital. I think that's what you're essentially saying. One, I just want to say, even before I say that, it was just like, I think you were shocked when she said, you know, I choose grace because it's like that type of grace is so unfamiliar to us.

Like, in our minds, the first thing we think is, I'm going to get what I deserve, which is divorce or whatever. And so I think that was just beautiful. And even God speaking through you, how he spoke through her, you know, like, give you grace. But yeah, like I feel three, I don't know if it was three, four years into our marriage. I fell into just watching pornography. She called me.

I was so shamed because of it, you know, but I was also shocked that it hurt us so bad, so badly. And I just remember just that same thing with you. Like the same thing as you, the more I spend less time with the Lord, the less I pray. I just slowly And the thing about drifting is sometimes you don't realize you're moving far away until you look back and like, whoa.

Like, I'm not even nowhere near the Lord anymore. Like, he's been stable. It's me who drifted away. You know, and so I think, you know, when a man is not intimate with the Lord, he's not honest with himself. He's not honest with the people around him. And the enemy just distraction

with so many other things. And so then we look up and it's like, not only have I had distance between my family, but more importantly, I've had distance between me and the Lord, which just caused the distance between me and my family. And I feel like the enemy attacks men and women too, but I think with us men, he attacks us

in a particular type of way because we're the leaders. I think a lot of ways we kind of establish the nature of our home and, you know, our wives typically take our lead, even if they don't admit it, like, emotionally. Like, you know. And so I think the enemy always attacks, you know, us with intimacy. Because when we don't feel safe with God, the enemy knows our family doesn't feel safe with us. You know what I'm saying? And so I think intimacy is so, so important.

I have a question, too, though, because with that being said, I think when you realize that you've kind of drifted away from the Lord because of your lack of intimacy, often what happens is there's an emotional disconnect in our marriage, even if we don't realize. And so, like, as you're processing how you should walk with him, you know, forgive him, did you guys visit the emotional, disconnects you guys had. I'll talk about it. Yeah.

The drift was real in our marriage. Sexually, emotionally, our friendship, life, just pulling me away, pulling him away while he was going to school, sometimes on Sundays. And I think it started little by little that drift. On Sundays, he was getting like his motorcycle license. It was just different little things that was keeping him away from community. Although I was very connected to community, I'm still very close with people at church. I'm reading my Bible.

I'm having as much time as I possibly can with little ones in the word. But I was working at night. And so he would get home and then I would leave. I'll be like, tag, you're it. And I was leaving. And so we worships in the night. So the truth was not only did he drift from the Lord, we had drifted from each other. I would have moments where he wanted to have sex and I'm like, you're so selfish.

I mean, I have a little one. I'm tired. And I think back at that moment, nothing gives him the right to have cheated. But I had my own part in the drift. I was very selfish in a sense, not knowing that he had needs. emotional needs and we were not dating. Dating was like absolute at the time. Were we talking?

Like, no. Like I looked back and I'm like, wow, we literally were not having communication. And that was happening little by little by little, right? It's a slow fade when you give yourself away. And so it feels like when we look back, not only was, the enemy works in isolation. Okay, so he works in shame, he works in isolation, he pulls you away from voices that speak into your life that tell you, hey, go to the Lord, hey, how are you doing? Hey, are you clean? Like, he slowly pulls you away from the voices that are necessary. And so you start listening to the voice of the enemy. And so as believers, we could also grieve the Holy Spirit. We could also quench his voice in our life. There's things that we can do that do that. And so although he was a believer at the time, I'm not sure.

And you could speak to that. If he was hearing the voice of the Lord at that time, as the Lord was warning him or giving him, you know, clear warnings that say, hey, leave, or don't do that, or don't say that, or don't hang with those people. But when you're asking that question, I wonder, and I never asked him this question. but I'm not going to turn this into an interview. No, that's a great question. No response.

I wanted to ask, was there a duality in your lifestyle at the time where you would be one person at home, at church, and then at work, like, not mention the Lord, not, like, be completely different. And I'm sure there was, but I'm just asking. Absolutely. There was. First one would respond to about intimacy. Looking back now, I don't believe, I cherish my intimacy with the Lord. I didn't know what that was supposed to look like early on in my walk. And then talking to men about, hey, how's your intimacy of God?

I mean, the hood's like, what are you talking about? What is that talking about? What is that talk? But it's just like, yeah, it was more of duty, read, you know, a few verses here and there, to keep it out, not to checklists, show up, serve, do those kinds of things. But real intimacy with God happened afterward. Yeah. It happened afterward.

It wasn't something that I grew up. into right away as a new believer. And again, talking about the time of when I got saved, she got saved, and the things that were already changing in our life was only about three years. Yeah. You know, that we're shifting from like actually going to an apartment that has windows. You know, you can see above everybody else, like from basement to other, and then also doing things together, going to church together, trying to change life up. But still, we had a lot of residue from our past, from our culture, from society. I mean, all these different things.

The way we communicated. So it was kind of, it wasn't, it wasn't the healthiest. I would say it was pretty toxic, to be honest with you. There's a lot of little things. It was a lot of little things. A lot of little things. And so, yes, even in that time, the Lord, he always gives a way of escape.

Yeah. Yeah. And we just don't respond to that way of escape. We just go in, right? It's like on, I think it was Proverbs 4 or 5, where the woman that's calling, the fool, you know, ticing him to come into the house. And he says, she says, my husband is gone. Come and lay with me. And it says like a sheep to the slaughter, right? Or a cattle of the slaughter.

He just walks right in. And so you just kind of, I believe that when you were in this season of habitual sin, where you're just, you've just, it's become a part of your nature to say yes to whatever the body wants, you kind of go to this kind of, spiritual blackout. Where you start making choices where you start going further and further and further down a path that you're like, wait, wait, wait, I didn't think it was going to get this far. And then you're more and more it consumes you. And so when the season of redemption, of freedom of healing and grace, you can look back then on

that season and look at yourself and be like, man, I can't believe I was making those choices. Yeah. I can't believe I did that. That's not even me. but you give yourself over to yourself. It's almost like what Romans 1 talks about. It's almost giving yourself over to your flesh. It has a craving.

And we talk about this too a lot, even in our conferences that we share, is that like sin grows every single day. Like it just wants to continue to grow. The flesh does. It's like the weeds outside. They just continually want to go. You got to keep plucking them out, keep plucking them out.

And when you have a season of not plucking out weeds, your front lawn looks. Crazy. Horrible. Yeah. The HOA is ready to like find you. It was going on over here. It was abandoned.

And so it's really when you get into that season of just turning over to yourself, the lust, the flesh that I think that it just pulls your way. But even in that season, the Lord still finds a way to give you a way out. Yeah. Or warns you. And you just don't heed to that warning. That's good. That's good.

Yeah. Yeah. I've had similar testimonies. similar testimony when I drifted in sin even in my marriage. Because what people got to realize, man, salvation is the location change. It is God taking us out of the domain of darkness and placing us into light. But the truth is, man, we've had a lot of years in darkness, right? And so, like, if somebody gets free from slavery, they might not be under the slave masses rule anymore.

But their minds are still slaves. And so, like, it is a daily renewing to remind yourself, I'm actually free. now. But I think that if I think it's very natural for us to go back to our old man, our old behaviors. And if we start practicing, living the way we used to live, you do become numb in a way because the devil was trying to kill you. He's trying to numb you to the point where you just eventually die. You know what I'm saying? And so I think I think that's what sin does. It tries to try to continually lure us back to our old dead self. Our old, you know, dead behaviors. It just numbs us over time, you know.

And so that's the reason why God uses so many things like your grace to show him like, man, like, you know, I still love you and I'm calling you out of this thing, which is beautiful. I don't know if you have a question. I had a question, but. I do. And I have a read a text and then I'm going to ask the question because I think this is necessary. Titus 2 chapter 2 verse 11, for the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people, training, to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions. I know for a fact there are women listening to you

and heard you say that you gave him grace and thought you're enabling him, you're creating space for him to do it again, that that's foolish, that that's silly. But I think another question is, so my question for you is, how do you speak to that immediate thought that grace gives him license?

to do it again. But also, how do you speak to how receiving that grace actually convicted you to not do it again, like the two-fold response to grace? I think, well, I'll just say, I think the gospel, when we respond to the gospel, like he, the Lord gives us grace, he forgives us in the middle of our mess, what that does to the right heart and the right seed, you know, right? being thrown on the right heart is that it compels you. His loving kindness draws man, right?

And it compels you to transform this love, this grace that we don't deserve unmerited favor, right? It causes somebody the right person, not all people, to say, man, I want to change. Right, right person. Right, the right person. Right. But grace does not give him life. license to sin. I wasn't saying like, hey, Tony, I'm going to grace you. You can continue to cheat on me, buddy. You can do this whenever you like, and I am here to grace you. First of all, that don't fly with me. But at the same time,

I think God graces us, but he expects us to transform, to change. When Jesus extended grace to people, he said, now go and sin no more, right? And so it's not that I had this power to make him not sin anymore. Yeah. The Holy Spirit was doing a work in my heart. Yeah. Like a transformation in me that says, man, I think it's, I can't remember who said it because it's not Chipping Room.

Pastor Chipping Grum says, love is giving somebody what they deserve the least. Help me out. Love is giving them what they, when they need it the most and at a great personal cost. And that's exactly what the gospel is. It's giving, I gave to Tony what he deserved the least. He didn't deserve for me to say, I grace you. Now, does that mean, just because I grace him, does that mean I continue in the marriage? Well, God told me personally to stay in the marriage.

I don't, I don't, you know, encourage to stay in a marriage with a habitual cheater. With somebody who's continually living a lifestyle that's continually wounding you. Tony was repented. He walked into that office, first of all, he had been broken. I mean, he'd just been crying. And I'm looking at him, although I wanted to tear his face, like, off, I could see not necessarily repentance, but a remorse for where he was at. Yeah, it was helpful. He was a starting place.

He came in their smiling. It's like, okay. Bad. That wasn't all he wouldn't have helped them if he came in there smiling. But, and so I think the Holy Spirit was doing a work in me. This is my story. Do I believe that God can transform somebody because of grace? Absolutely.

I've seen too many stories that God can do it. I've also seen stories where the person is not repented. And we'll kind of share a little bit about how he got to that place. Yeah. I just want to say, because I'm glad. So the question that you just asked was the question I was going to ask and so we were on the same page with that.

But I want to say that, you know, I think what makes this so beautiful with Jackie's question, a lot of times people will say, oh, you know, they'll try to like look at you and say, oh, you're a weak woman, you're this and that. But I just met you today,

but like you talked about fighting them when you, you know what I'm saying? So it wasn't weakness. It was the Holy Spirit giving you strength. And so I think that's something that the world really don't understand because we want to appear strong on our own. And it's just like actually it's easy to walk away.

It's actually stronger to stay. Yeah. Right. And so like a lot of times we, even our ideas of strength is so tainted, like, so tainted by the world. And we have wrong ideas what strength is. Yeah. But the Holy Spirit actually gave you real strength to walk in grace and forgive,

which ultimately helped you. I think that's beautiful. I think only the Lord can do that. Yeah. And I want to name something. because a big part of y'all's story that I do not want people to miss is the constant presence of wise counsel. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, you are in the room with your pastor. Your pastor's walking y'all through the thing. He's the one saying there's this option. There's that. Like, and I think when we make decisions either in isolation or with unwise counsel, then we are more prone to make decisions that just aren't good. You know what I'm saying? And so I think consider the context by which they are explaining their story and then consider the lack of wise counsel you might be having.

And that might be why you're so quick to push back because you're not in the, you're not in the lifestyle of having community of people that think highly of stuff. And what I'm saying? Yes. And I don't know why I just thought about this, but what I've, this is mainly for the listener. What I've experienced in the past is people getting so. call wise counsel from their friends. Yeah. Men, that homeboy saying,

she don't appreciate you, man, you work and you do this and y'all do you do that. I've even had brothers tell me friends told them, man, you deserve a little extra on the side. It was like, get rid of those friends. Yes. But then it's often the women friends that we have

and it says, you could do better, leave him. They don't even make you consider what the Lord wants. Yes. Because their idea of strength is walking away, you know. And so I think that having Wise council, not just people who love us, but people who love our marriage.

Yeah. It's super important. It's key. Yeah, yeah. Hey, Saints, I know you want to hear the rest of this conversation, and you can if you come back next week. We ain't cutting it off, you know, as a punishment, but rather as a stewardship of your time.

You understand what I'm saying? And this is not to hook, y'all, but this is a hook, but it's a truthful hook. The story gets better. It gets better. Yeah, and I think it's worth listening to. So tune in next week. Bye. With the Perry's is produced by The Perrys,

with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.