With The Perrys - Sexuality and Self Denial: Our Thoughts on Jackie's Chat with KevOnStage

Episode Date: August 12, 2020

Jackie recently conversed with KevOnStage about sexuality and, not surprisingly, it was met with a lot of controversy. One aspect of it that seems to be the most alarming was Jackie's statements on self-denial. On this episode of With The Perrys, Preston and Jackie dig more into the concept of sexuality and self-denial and the reasons why it's typically not welcomed with opened arms. Book recommendations: 1: The Secret Thoughts of An Unlikely Convert 2: The Coddling of the American Mind   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How's St. Nantes? What's up with y'all? What's good? What's good? So I've been seeing, you know, every single one of y'all on my pictures, on posts, on our YouTube channel. We have a new YouTube channel called With the Perry's, by the way. Talk about some. Is 30 Minutes with the Perry's going to come back?

This is the thing. We're in a pandemic. A whole pandemic. Hello? I'm pregnant. Everybody's been like, what y'all been at? Seven months at that. We've been at home.

We've been at home busy. doing nothing and a whole lot all at the same time. Right. And so we, but we, we're going to try our best to, you know, record a bunch of these podcasts in our closets

so y'all can be quiet. It feels good to be back, though. Does it? Yeah, it feels good. It don't feel good to me because I'm sitting Indian style on this floor and I don't know how long that's going to last. Oh, wow.

You know, I got pelvic problems. I empathize. Do you? Sympathize, which one? It could be, though. Yeah. depending on the state of your heart. Anyways, but we're glad to be back.

Before we even get into the conversation, just want to let you know that we are on Patreon now as well. So if you want to be a Patreon, please go to Jackie's bio and her Instagram. Or how about you, don't go to my bio. How about you just go to www.patryon.com. For us slash with the paris. That too. That's probably the easier route to get, you know,

Exclusives for now. A good chunk of our Patreon is surrounding our With the Perry's YouTube channel, but we will try to make it, what's the word, conducive to the likes of those who enjoy these here podcasts. But yeah, you'll get some special stuff. We answer your questions. And we also. I gave books away last week randomly from the office. And we also, you know, give exclusive conversations on Patreon. So it kind of be like 30 minutes with the Perry's, just us sitting down. Talking to you. Talking to you and answering questions and talking to each other about, you know, random topics. So go check it out. So what are we talking about today? We're talking about your conversation with Kev on stage. It kind of stirred up some pots out there. Sturred up a lot of pots.

It was a very interesting conversation, to say the least. It was interesting because, one, it was really dope for another group of, I guess, a different, that doesn't necessarily know your testimony, your story to be exposed to it, which was, I feel like it's always good for the glory of God personally. But, yeah, it also caused some people to be upset and some people to be, yeah, just kind of bothered by some of the things that you said because, like I said, they're new to you and your story. And so I'm pretty sure it caught a lot of people off guard who are new to your story.

So for context about a couple of weeks ago, Kev on stage, who is a comedian, who has a pretty large platform on Instagram and Twitter and et cetera, he has these, I guess, conversations that he has with people called Theological Thursdays on his YouTube channel. And he invited me to come on to talk about sexuality. And we did. And folks didn't like it. And not everybody. No, but there was a big push for the video to be removed. And so subsequently, it was removed, I think seven days after the post. And so I think we want to talk less about, even the interview itself and more about just the interesting dynamics of what happens when a Christian attempts to be

faithful to the scriptures as it relates to sexuality or sin or obedience or righteousness or whatever. and how that, yeah, how that's heard and interpreted and then responded to by the culture at large. Because I think both me and Preston, though our topics usually are different, I think our ministries are similar in that way, you know, of saying things that are true and trying our best to communicate them in a way that is loving and gentle and patient and kind, yet still having to deal with or reckon with the fact that that doesn't mean people. people ain't going to hate you just because you said the truth nicely. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah, I thought it was interesting. But was I surprised? No.

What were some of the comments for people that did not read them? Yeah, I think. Because, you know, I don't venture into comment sections. Yeah, I looked at the comments section just for a while. You know, my heart can take a lot of it. But it was comments like, this is hurtful. This is degrading to people who have same-sex attraction. This conversation is one-sided, which I kind of felt they had a fair argument.

They kind of felt like it should have been somebody else in the conversation. They could have balanced the conversation. To push back. To push back at you. But at the same time, I think, that it was somebody that was trying to talk to you just to learn your perspective. In the same way, you know, he's talked to other people in the past just to hear their perspective. You know what I'm saying? So I think that was the nature of his whole, the reason why he started doing it, the Theological Thursdays.

And I think that, yeah, I think that some people just didn't like your perspective. Did you see any comments that made you mad? That made you want to fight? No, no, I know I did. Yeah. Because by now I'm used to it. You know, I think that it's certain things that make me want to fight. Like, somebody's trying to put their hands on you.

I don't, I don't go for that. But, you know, like, I don't think that I can effectively be a witness and an ambassador for the gospel and not expect things like this to happen. Right. You know what I'm saying? Because I think that Jesus lets us know, you know, in so many ways that the gospel is very controversial. You know, I think that for people who, yeah, I think for people who say things like that, I think that they just listen to the narrative of, of, of, you know, I think that for people who say things like that, I think that they listen to. of Jesus and what he taught. They'll see that in a lot of ways, your message,

what's happening to your message or what people are trying to do with the things that you said is exactly what Jesus said, what happened. Which is persecution, which is people getting mad at the truth and all of it. And to summarize what I said, just in case people are like, so what does she say? In essence, I told my story. So if you read my book, Gay Girl, Good God,

I pretty much said everything that's in the book, but in an abbreviated version. I think one of the most controversial things that I said, which was taken as a clip and put on Kev's page, which was that I'm a woman who was married to a man, so therefore functionally heterosexual. Yet at the same time, I am still very much attracted to and tempted by women. But as a Christian, what I feel or what I believe faithfulness is is to kill, deny, suppress, whatever desires that rise up in me that God has told me not to give myself to. And I do that by faith. And everybody was like, what in the world? Yeah, which is the, I think to their defense and me trying to put my mind in their mind, that sounds crazy. crazy. Self-denial does not make sense to the natural mind. Why in the world would you deny yourself

from what they say is yourself? Because we've intertwined passion and desire and affection and our, I guess, sexual preferences with our identities to the point that to deny who you think yourself to be is blasphemous to this culture. But that's actually, actually what Christianity is, is to deny myself. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I, you know, I wanted the conversation to continue and not to, you know, I was kind of disappointed when the conversation was taken down, but I definitely understood the dilemma that he was in. But I feel, I felt like if the conversation would have continued, I felt like, yeah,

it would have given more opportunity from the Christian perspective to be heard. Because I think a lot of times when I talk to people, different phase or different worldviews. One of the things that I do before we start to talk about what we disagree in is give each other a firm foundation of what we fundamentally believe before we start having a disagreement on something. So for example, when somebody come to me and say the Trinity is wrong, it's like, okay, before we even talk about the Trinity and dig in the scriptures, let me first give you a firm foundation of what the Trinity is because most people have a misrepresentation of what Christians believe in the first place. So with that being said, I think,

I think with you, I think I saw a whole bunch of comments like, this is harming. This is going against our nature. This is going against who we are. This is making us suppress who we are. And I think for the people who say that really don't have a firm foundation of the Christian worldview. Because what the Christian worldview is, is for you example, it is not you merely spewing out your opinions or spewing out something that you have critically thought through. But it is you expressing. seeing what the Bible now calls your new nature. Right. It is not somebody who is, who was, who was in the gay or in the homosexual lifestyle.

And now you're not. Right. Because you thought through some things. But no, it is somebody who has been transformed. Who has been transformed. So in so many ways, you know, I think people don't understand that to directly go against what you believe is not merely going. against your worldview or what you've critically thought through, but it is a direct opposition

towards your new nature. But at the same time, I think people like you, you embrace that for the sake of conversation. And I think if we cannot do that, we cannot effectively have conversations that are healthy. And also the world would try to convince us that we cannot walk in love with the people who are same sex attracted just because we disagree with one aspect of their lives. And that's just not true. I know that the sexuality conversation is automatically so much more contentious than a lot of other conversations. We don't see this same intensity with like fornication or adultery or polyamory or even pornography. Like, it's just not, like, people don't get this mad or feel this, this, you know, I don't know.

Why do you think people get this mad? Because I think, this is, this is me thinking, I think this identity thing is huge because when, when I'm coming for, let's say if I say, A, don't have sex before marriage, it feels as if I'm coming for the act, not the person. versus if I say, hey, we should deny ourselves all of whatever sexual passions that we have that go against God's original design. It's not an act that I'm seemingly coming for. It's a person. But what I'm trying to argue is that what the Bible is coming for is not a person per se, but rather a heart.

For example, in what is it, First Corinthians, 6, 9 through 10. Even the word homosexual one isn't there in the Greek. It's men sleeping with men. So it is coming against a practice and not a person. But the way that we read that passage or in Romans 1, the way that we read that passage is that we look at these, the use of the term homosexual as nouns instead of adjectives. And so because we look at them as nouns, even the world and the church communicates them like it's talking about people when it's talking about a practice. What I mean by that is if I'm talking about the sin, I'm not attacking you as an individual.

I'm attacking like the, the heart postures and the belief systems and the sinfulness that is coming out of the individual. That's good. Does it make sense? Absolutely. So what you're just, what you're saying is that you, in a lot of ways, you're not making people their sin. You're not, you're not. Exactly. Yeah, you're not making people that sin.

You have. But people have made themselves their sin. Yeah. Because we have concluded that because this is how I feel, this is who I am. That's deep. That's deep. And so, yeah, that's really deep. Because one of the things that I saw in the comments, and not just in this comments section, but just many times before, is how some people don't have the ability to separate church culture and the things that might happen in church culture with faithful Christians. like yourself. So I think

in a lot of times in church culture throughout history we've had to be honest a lot of damaging things. Oh terrible things. That has been said in the pool of things. Horrible things. You know what I mean? Sad things. Despicable things. Yeah. Homophobic things.

Absolutely. But I think that it is a difference between a faithful Christian who is seeking to walk in love with people who are same-sex attracted because I think that Yeah, for you example, for example, like you have been attacked by people in the church who say, Jackie, like, you're saying that you can be in a marriage and still with a man and still be attracted to women. Can I say something about that real quick?

Yeah. Or am I going to distract you? No, no, no. That was another, because me and Preston actually kind of like talked about this a little bit, which was I say, you know, in Christ, in a marriage, I'm still. tempted, people say that's stupid, that's foolish. But let me have God on there and say, yeah, all my desires and temptations went away. They would have looked at me like I'm a liar to liar. How dare you? It's like when I... Both face liar. And that's from both sides, from both the world and the church, because there are people in the church that could presume that I am

saying that God cannot deliver. But what they are using is they're co-opting the word deliverance and actually adding a definition to it that's not seen in the scriptures. And that's my whole point. I think that for people, for the people in the comment section to say, you are a person who is spewing hate just like the church has done for the last 80 years, they don't understand how your message is so countercultural to a lot of church. It's polarizing on both sides. To a lot of church rhetoric that has been spewed out of pulpits for a very long time.

The church has taught us that if, that if we're still attracted to the same sex that we haven't been delivered. And you're saying the Bible doesn't say that. Because the Bible never frames deliverance in that way. Anytime deliverance is mentioned, it's a change in position. And so Israel, when they were delivered, they were delivered from Egypt, where, into Canaan? In Christ, what are we delivered? We are delivered out of a domain of darkness into a domain of light.

It's a change in position. And so changing my position does not mean that I won't struggle, does not mean that I won't be tempted. What it means is I'm under a new master now. I'm in a new location. I'm in a place of safety where I now am empowered to resist those things that happened and took place in Egypt. That's a word. It's really good. So I, yeah.

Yeah. And in the same way, you know, I often give. And I know I want to be sensitive, you know, because five years ago, you know, I wasn't as sensitive to these topics. But God has grown me. God has done a word. Whatever. Yeah. And so I want to be sensitive because I have, you know, I know people who are same-sex

attracted, who I respect and who I think are, you know, good people. And, yeah, so one of the things that I try not to do is to make comparisons to a worldview that I never, to a worldview I've never been in. Right. And understood on a personal level. But at the same time, I think that I had desires me as a heterosexual male. Yeah, still do. It still do.

And it's not fair. Like when I see the lifestyle that God took you out of, how people try to make that your identity and people don't do the same thing for me. Do you want to talk about what the people said to your sister? You want to bring that up or no? Yeah. So, for example, like, you know, Jackie's conversation when it came out, people, you know, had a lot to say about it. Even some family members came to me and was like, yo, like, she's still attracted to women, you know?

Like, how do you feel about that? Are you afraid? And I'm like, why should I be afraid? Like, do you think that her still being attracted to women still makes her a lesbian woman? In the same way, like, if I'm still attracted to multiple women, woman, does that make me polyamorous? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, am I who Christ says I am?

Because what you're getting at is that if we're going to treat people according to what they're tempted by, then both of us need to be fearful of our fidelity to each other. Absolutely. Period. Because, which is deep. Because it's like, why everybody looking at me? Like, I'm the one that's going to cheat when pressing the one that are knocked 16,000 boots in this day.

Yeah. Hello? And I think that when people. look at, I think at when people look at, I should be terrified, what you're saying. Right. I think when people look at men who are, who is not monogamous in one relationship, who sleeping with so many different women, they look at them as, you know, just men being men, not understanding the emotional aspect. Yeah. And a lot of sexual relations that men have, you know, when they're, when they're just running the streets, have sex. They just think, oh, they're just men being dogs.

and they just don't understand men. And I think that men can't even properly communicate this because they don't really understand themselves. You know what I'm saying? But I think that there is a deep emotional, yeah, an emotional need that men try to feel. Right. So I've heard men growing up saying, like,

I just don't know how to people want women. Like, I care for multiple women that I'm with. And they all give me something new. They all give me something fresh that I need. that I need. And so when a man becomes a Christian like myself, there is a level of denial that I have to, that I have to take. There is a level of saying, man, it is hard to be fulfilled by one woman. Yes. Right? It is hard for one woman to fulfill all my emotional needs, all my sexual needs, all my physical needs. It's, it's, it is a level of denial. But people, when I struggle,

with the fact that I want to have a conversation with this woman and flirt with her in my heart, or I want to look at this woman's body, or I want to actually be physical with this woman, but I don't do it. People don't call me a fornicator or an adulterer. Nor do they look at you. Well, some, obviously, some worldly men do. But they don't, they don't treat you as if your form of denial is suppressing your true self. self, right? Which I think goes back to the identity thing. But I think, and as far as a man identifies himself with his passions and his lusts, his lust will have power over him. Because I think if you were in our marriage or if you moved about the world feeling, because I'm a man, this is what I must do, then you would be a slave to that thing. But you don't see yourself through the lens of what you struggle with. You see yourself through the lens of what Christ did for you. And so because of that, It isn't just, oh, because I feel this way, I'm going to do it. It's, I might feel this way, but I'm obey Jesus.

And that's ultimately what all Christians are called to do, whether they're same-sex attracted, whether they like a bunch of women, whether they're addicted to pornography, whether they are mean. You got Christians that just have a real bad, hard time being nice. And they got to deny themselves to say, I feel like I should be mean to this person, but that's not what I'm going to do. I'm going to obey Jesus. So what we're appealing to is a historic understanding of the gospel.

Is that simple? It's what the early church taught. It's what Christianity was founded on. It was founding on a man, God becoming man and dwelling in human history, and literally sacrificing himself for the sins of the world. And so like anybody who comes to this gospel, to this gospel message, we have to know when Jesus tells us that this life will be hard. We have to know that includes denying things that we feel is right. Yep.

So true to us. Right. That's what the gospel message is about. It is not counting the things that I love as a game, but counting them loss for the sake of the cross. E, shitty. That's what the God. That's what the gospel is. message is and I think that if we...

You just be talking over me. Because you try to distract me. But yeah, so it hurts me sometimes when people think that you're intentionally trying to, you know, be hurtful or try to be dismissive of how they feel. When you're really just talking about

the gospel that saves your life. But you know, I mean? But you know, a lot of this is, none of this is, what's the word, confusing to me, you know, because I think if you read the scriptures, how people understand the gospel and themselves is, has always got some type of pushback, you know, but I think also like, there's a level of ignorance. And by ignorance, I don't mean that in a condescending way. I mean that, like, literally. Even in Romans 1, where it talks about idolatry. It says that people thought, they thought themselves to be wise, but in that they became fools.

This is talking about wisdom is talking about arguments, talking about intellect, talking about how your logic interacts with certain biblical instruction, right? And so there's, you already come into it when you are an idol worshiper, you're already coming to it, assuming that your opinion of yourself and the world and how everything is supposed to function is actually wiser than what God has commanded in the scriptures. And so, God forbid, somebody come in talking about, well, yeah, Jesus said, take up your cross daily and die if you want to follow them. Well, that doesn't make sense. Well, that's again, that's you appealing to your wisdom, which the scripture actually calls foolish. But that wasn't my point. One point that I was going to make is I think I don't know how thorough

our communication of or our understanding of original sin affects this conversation. Yeah, in what way? Because I think apart from, I think if you don't understand the reason you were created and then you don't understand how sin has corrupted that, then when we talk about denying self, you don't understand that your self, self is broken. Absolutely. You know what I'm saying? And so like we were created for glory. We were created to love and serve and honor God. That was the entire purpose. Our emotions and our feelings and our passions and our affections, they exist for very natural reasons, namely to honor God and to love

each other and to enjoy things, right? But when sin came into the mix, it perverted and twisted our affections and our desires where now we would desire things that go against God's original intention for our body and our creation. So to say that we're denying ourselves is to say that we are attempting through the power of the spirit to restore our bodies and our minds back to its original intention, which is to honor God with it. That's really good. Because I think What I hear is it's not necessarily the things that we desire. It is how distorted our desires have become. They are affected.

Yeah, our affections are affected. Yeah, our affections are affected. And that's really good. And I think to just piggyback off of that, because sin came in and just kind of just jacked the way we see things and the way we see God and the way we see each other. We see everything, yeah. We see it has skewed our view. We then, I think, don't realize how much faith is a gift.

It has to be a gift. Yes. Right? And I think that if we don't realize how much faith is a gift and that God has to open one's eyes to allow them to see him properly, to see each other properly, I think that a lot of this conversation will be just, yeah, just a circular argument. And so I think that we have to realize that faith is a gift. And I think that for Christians who want to continue this dialogue with people in the world about this particular topic, we have to have that framework. We have to know that God has gifted those to see him properly. And I think it's both a gift and a decision because God has provided, obviously the Holy Spirit moves upon our hearts and removes the veil where we can see the beauty that is.

in Jesus, but then there's the constant choosing to believe what he has said and what he has revealed in his son. Because do you know what incredible faith it takes to not give in to what feels good, to not give in to what feels right in the hope that one day God will honor it and say well done? That takes faith because it can feel ridiculous to continue to say no to yourself. For what? Yeah.

For Jesus. Yeah. And a lot of people say, like, what does that faith in God looks like? And I think, I think that's a good question, you know, because I think the word faith simply means, it rocks on this word confide. It means confidence. Confidence, yeah. I got confidence. It just literally means confidence in what Jesus did and that he has the best intentions for me and the way he created me according to his word is the wrong.

right way. And that what he has communicated in his word is authoritative. And so, and so a lot of times I think, and I'm not trying to diagnose everybody's heart because that's not my job. And you can't do that. Yeah, I can't. Well, you can say that it's deceitful above all things who can know it because the Bible said that. Yeah, but at the same time, I think that I think that I will want everybody who wants to continue to have this conversation in a loving and respectful way. I will challenge them to to examine their heart and to ask themselves, are you completely confident in the Lord and what he has said? And are you willing to submit to everything he has said in his word?

Or are you taking a little bit of what God said and a little bit of how you feel and trying to marry the two? Because it's like, that's just not how the Bible works. And you know what I'm saying? And that's not how, you know, Christianity. But that's how we work. Yeah. You know? And so I think that's the hard part is because I think an automatic pushback somebody would bring is how do we know it's God's word? How do we know all of it is God's work? How do I know that, you know, I should submit to Paul. And Paul isn't Jesus. So there's all these questions and like arguments against it. But again, I do think it revolves around. obviously study, study to show yourself approved,

you know, but it's also just faith. Either you're going to believe God or you won't. Yeah. You know? Either he created you for himself and his glory, and that means that he demands or he deserves both, like both of you,

your soul, your body, your thoughts, your heart, your mind, or it doesn't, you know, and be willing to believe,

not only in your denial of yourself or your denial, whatever it is that God is deemed sinful, that it's not a sacrifice that won't profit you anything. Absolutely. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of, what is it, free gift to God is eternal life through Christ Jesus, our Lord. That's the text. Yes.

Like, obedience will not return void. Absolutely. Like, we will reap what we sow. And for those who sow to the spirit. they will reap the spirit. Like we will see God one day. Blessed are the pure at heart. Blessed happy are the pure at heart.

And so that's what, honestly, that's always, we talked about this too. That's what keeps me going. It isn't anything other than the reality that one day I'm going to see God. And he is going to give me the ultimate affirmation that I have never, never received on earth, which is well done. Imagine that. God, the creator of the year. universe saying, well done. That will make every single sacrifice, every single moment of self-denial completely worth it. Absolutely. And I just want to say this because it's on my heart. I think that...

On your heart! That's so Christian. It is on my heart because I think, I think if this is five years ago, I think I would have came into this conversation just really bluntly, because I'm not going to be a blunt person. And I just would have said what the scriptures say and, and not really consider what people feel. But this last five years, I've learned a lot. Of course, being married to you, also talking to people who are same-sex attracted. And I think this narrative is being taught that if we disagree with each other, that we cannot walk in love with one another.

And the world is trying to push this narrative that to love is to agree. And that's just not how the world works. And if the world continues to work like that, I think that we're in danger. That's true. Because if we don't respect each other's worldviews, we can never grow. And the world will all go in one direction. And I don't think God created it to go in one direction. But I'm also sensitive to people who are listening to a very heterosexual male talk about these things.

Cisgender. Yeah. You know what that mean? No, I don't. But I think maybe you could tell me later. But I think, yeah, it probably can feel the same way when I hear people who don't grow up in the urban community try to talk about black on black crime. You know what I'm saying? So I get that.

But one of the things that I've tried to do is to learn from, from, you know, the LGBT-plus community. And I've tried to hear. and I've come to respect people in that particular community. You know, we've had, you know, dinners with people marry, you know, gay couples that we like, I like them as people. And then when I go into these situations, I don't look at them like they're, like they're just their sexuality. I've come to respect who they are as artists, who they are as people. people, their fashion. It's so much more to a person now than I was taught to grow up to see gay people as. Like, I was taught to look at them as a particular way. And so I think that being married

to a woman who is now a believer and who came out of their lifestyle has helped me. But I think the Holy Spirit has helped me. And I think that if we have healthy conversations, I think that Christians will have the opportunity to, like, truly become friends. with people in that particular community and to walk in love, even in their disagreement. I think the devil and the world tries to push this narrative that it is not possible.

And you know what? Not to cut you off. But I do think that's happening is just not online. Because I think sometimes we can think that there are not friendships with straight and queer people are trans and Baptist saints.

But there is, but you assume that the comment section and Twitter is real life. And it's not. It's not. It's people yapping their jaws. But it's like, no, behind closed doors in neighborhoods, in churches, in homes, these kinds of conversations and friendships are beginning to develop because God is being faithful. And he is loving the world through his church. But I think what happens is when these relationships are put on the forefront, I think unbalanced people from both perspectives.

Yeah. Nobody is. Yeah. I think some unbalanced people from the Christian worldview, they would say, are you friends with this person? Are you giving them the gospel? Yeah, unequally yoked. Yeah, are you unequally yoga? And I think that I think people in the world say, are they suppressing you? Yeah.

Are they brainwashing you? Are they brainwashing you? And it's like, no, like, like, she's queer and I'm straight, but we're both artists. And we both like sneakers. And we both like food. And we both like the same movies. We're humans being human. Yeah, we're humans being human.

And she knows my position. I know her position. But we can love each other well. And we can spend five days with each other and never talk about homosexuality. It is possible. It's possible. You know what I'm saying? And so I just think that, I just think that,

we have to just, yeah, stop pushing this narrative that to disagree is to not love because that's not what love is. Yeah, I think this is a good conversation. I think I want to recommend some books. The coddling of the American mind, I'll link to it in the little bio thing or whatever it's called on what's this thing podcast. I think that's a great book to see where the world is going. terms of labeling, I guess, world views that we disagree with as harmful or traumatic. It's not even a Christian book is written by like this ethicist guy who is real smart stuff. That's a really great book. Rosario Butterfield's book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. It's just a brilliant memoir to me. One, I'm friends with Rosari and I just, I love it pieces.

I don't know why I'm saying that. Like I baked cookies or something. But I think the way she talks about her story as being a queer professor who hated Christians and the scriptures and how the hospitality of one believer letter to see Jesus as the aim of all of life. I just think for both sides, Christian or non-Christian, queer, straight, whatever, not saying that those are mutually exclusive, but you give what I'm saying. I think it's just a helpful narrative to read. Yeah. she has an amazing testimony. Yeah.

But thank y'all for this. Yeah, man. Tune in to more podcasts that's going to release in the future. Yeah. Yeah, peace. Bye.