With The Perrys - Spouses Don’t Compete, They Complement

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

We are all uniquely gifted and charged to use our gifts for the glory of God, both inside and outside the home. How can we use our gifts effectively while also helping our partner to flourish? What does it look like for husbands and wives to support each other without ego or insecurity getting in the way? The Perrys discuss how it takes both humility and love for spouses to support each other well.  Also in this episode, the Perrys talk about Preston’s DISCIPLE hat. It sells out quickly, but keep an eye out here. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yo, it's the Saints and the Ains. Welcome back, Bucco. I didn't like that dance. Nor did I like the key that you sang the song in. But I appreciate your jubilant approach to a record. Jackie's drop. That you actually despise. I don't despise it.

Actually, the tour, the podcast tour made me appreciate the Saints and the Ains song better because to see the cold crowd sing it and to see their joys, like the joy on their faces. It's a joyful song. Like we're supposed to make a joyful noise until the Lord. Yeah.

So this is our first day back and Jackie's very drowsy because she took 1711 Benadryl. It's not honestly probably the wisest thing to take Benadryl before a podcast. Yet at the same time, you got two options. It's either I take a Benadryl and breathe

or I take nothing and sneeze. And I felt like breathing, like breathing? That's a very important activity. So tell me why before this podcast, this is our first podcast back, and I stopped praying and she dozed off. No, no, no, no, no. I didn't go on my prayer.

I didn't go on the rapid eye movement. I didn't go in the rim sleep, okay? I just was on the edge of not being able to wake up. You know what I'm saying? Like you've been in prayer sometimes where they pray and your eyes closed and it's like your body feels like you're trying to go to sleep. It's like, no, we're praying.

This is a spiritual practice. Did I tell you, did I ever tell you that I don't know why I thought about this? I'm pretty sure I told you about my history teaching Mr. Cobb. I have no idea. He had narcolepsy. Yes.

So he would dole. I remember I told you that? Sure. He would doze off mid-sentence. Georgia is a rural car. I don't think he should be teaching. You know what I'm saying? Like there are some things that you,

that take. Mid-sentence. Demand-the-fire. Mid-sentence. Georgia is a world... And then every time we would laugh, he would snap on us. It's like how... Like, why would you...

Like, we're in middle school. Yeah. Like, it's funny. Like, you just throws off mid-sentence. I'm sorry to see... To hear that. Because, I mean, at some point, that's actually dangerous. Because, like, how do you drive?

I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm gonna be talking to this tone for 40 minutes. It's just what you're going to get. You look like you hit some of them happy trees. I didn't. It's just... Because I took one...

I only took one bit of drill. I took a bit of drill of Zizal or ZyCal, whatever it is, and I took the stuff you put up your nose. Oh, wow. And not cocaine, like allergy medicine. Oh, right, yeah. She was snoring that white girl, y'all. No, no lines before the pocket.

What we're talking about today. In those cases, I'd be really excited. Because you haven't been around somebody on Coke? Yes. Damn, Dave. A whole lot all my life, actually. No, use around people with crack. Coke, too.

Coke? So I got some, I got some wealthy aunties. Oh, they was on Coke? Oh, yeah. What did they do? Like, why? Because that's what crack is the poor man's drug. Coke is the rich person's drug.

I don't smoke crack. I make too much money to ever. I make too much money to smoke crack. That's crazy that you snapped on somebody because they got the type of drug addict you was wrong. I mean, hey. I don't smoke crack. I make too money. Make too much money to smoke crack.

Snort. Anyway, you took it far. What are we talking about? Supporting your spouse, not supporting your spouse. Okay, so I'll re-work. Okay, I just jacked that all of them. I'm sorry. So we were having, we've had several discussions about how people will text me or comment

on how much they appreciate the way you support me in ministry and my giftedness and all the things. And I think there are a lot of people in marriages or not. not even marry yet who can sometimes feel as if one, if a woman has a certain kind of gift or any kind of gift, will I be able to find and marry a man who will, like, who will cultivate that and give it room and space to flourish? Or you have people who are actively in relationships or marriages who they've experienced kind of this competitiveness between them and their spouse as it relates to their gifts. And obviously, this is not, it shouldn't be a

gender specific conversation, but I was kind of debating with you upstairs that I kind of think it is a gender specific situation because I think that men by just maybe because of the enemy of the flesh, testosterone, I don't know, there's a certain kind of ego involved with some men where it makes it more difficult, I guess, for them to support their wives and all the things because I think the expectation is like women go into marriage knowing that they're supposed to be supported. Yeah, yeah. We are trained and cultivated and read books where that's the assumption.

And so there's never, there's never any issue with a woman saying, yeah, I'm going to support my husband. Yeah, I'm like, make sure that his vision gets off the ground. But when it comes to men keeping the same energy, sometimes it don't seem like that. Yeah, I think one of the reasons why we had to debate is just me being honest, I had to ask myself like, why is this even the thing? Like, you know, and you was just telling me it is. And I, you know, and I think I asked you the question, you know, what about the women who are, you know, have a hard time, you know, support their husband?

And you was like, that's not really a thing. You had to explain it to me because, you know, one, you know, I didn't know if that did exist. I didn't know if it did exist or it didn't exist. But also, too, I'm not really surrounded around guys who I feel like that's been their struggle. Right. One of my homies said to me, he was like, yeah, like, you around the guys that are like you. You know what I'm saying? Like a lot of the men that I know, they're either leaders, you know what I'm saying?

And their wives kind of support them or they don't be, or their wives are killing it. And they're like me. They love their wives and they want their wives to thrive and they want their wives to flourish in their, in their giftedness and they're secure in who they are. Yeah. And so, like, for me, it's just like, yeah, I was like, yeah, I've always been secure, you know, it was crazy because one time this dude asked me, he was like, why, why do you walk in a room like you, you, you, you, you, you own it? And I was like, I don't think I walk. Somebody, somebody told you that.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody asked me that like a couple of years ago. And I was like, no, I'm not trying to be arrogant. I'm not trying to be prideful. I'm just, I'm just confident. Right. You know what I'm saying?

And it's like, well, when I met you, you were a confident woman. And you knew, like, all the gifts that God gave you and you walked in it and that attracted me to you. Like, that's the reason why I was attracted to you. So, like, for me, I didn't understand why men struggle the way they do. Yeah. Well, I do want to be clear. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of women who struggle with supporting their spouses too. What would be the struggle?

I think the difference, I think the difference in the lack of support is where it's coming from. So I think women don't necessarily have an ego that they're trying to protect. I think if anything, if they're not supportive, is because there's a level of insecurity. So ego comes out of insecurity too. But I think insecurity in women is coming out of fear, like fear of abandonment, fear of if you thrive in this area, will you leave me? Will you, will the attention, will you and draw you away from my marriage? Will you still love me?

Like, I think those are some of the questions. I think with men, I think sometimes, and please correct me, I think the insecurity and the ego is this level of trying to shield yourself from experiencing shame if your wife is thriving and flourishing in this kind of way. So keeping her underneath you and like hindering her ability to do whatever. And mind you, I'm not even talking about just women who speak and teach. We're just talking about anything that God has given your wife or your girlfriend to do that your ego is keeping you from cultivating.

Now, you know, I don't know if I should feel the type of way because I'm like, you know, you're making me sound like a whole woman. What are you talking about? Because that's been, you know, historically that's been my struggle. Yeah, because we got to be careful. We're not generalizing. Yeah, no, I was joking. But that has been my struggle with, like, with you,

especially in the beginning of our marriage, I've, like, my fear with you doing all the things that you were doing, with your giftedness or whatever, was like, man, you know, like, would she forget about me, you know? And that's because I have abandonment issues. Right. You know what I'm saying? But once I was like, oh, she loved me more than she love all this?

Okay, cool. Yeah. You know what I mean? But I do think, but I do think, I do think that can be, that potentially could play a part in why men don't support their wives in ministry. Because I do think. Explain. Right.

Because I do think that the underlying insecurity could be a fear of them not thinking, well, them having to fear that their wife won't think that they're useful. The husband. Yeah. Yeah. That their, yeah, the husband might have. an underlying fear that the wife might think that they're not useful as a leader anymore. Okay.

That their wife feeling like, you know, their voice is invaluable because you're so esteemed publicly. Mm-hmm. I think they might have a fear, you know, that, and I'm just trying to get, like, underneath it all. Yes. You know, that they, yeah, that they might have this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this tuggle, this, this wrestle with, like, man, like, if, if, if, if she has all it is, like, like, what, What role do I play? Yeah, what am I useful?

Am I useful in your life anymore? You know. But even where does that come from? What is that? I think we spoke about this before long time ago, closet podcast days. Uh-huh. But I do think that society esteems gifts in a way that that makes men feel like,

man, like, that creates a hierarchy in the church. Okay. Right? And so like look at the, look at the man with the teaching gift in all the churches. He's esteemed. He's put on a pedestal, right? And, you know, sometimes that's why a lot of men don't be rocking with church. Because they feel like their pastor has more say-so in their lives than them.

Got it. And it's like, because he has a teaching gift, you will rather listen to him than respect the man in your house. Right. So I can imagine the, like, if we esteem teaching gifts, if we exceem, exalt gifts in the body like that so much, I can imagine the tug of war that men were having their heart if their wife is esteemed publicly for a giftedness in the church. Because we all, I think we esteem certain gifts more than others.

But how do we process that dynamic even beyond gifts in the church, but just a science and caught like your wife might be, the Lord might be positioned her. Maybe the Lord is positioning her to be a professor, right? Maybe he would like her to be a manager at a job. Maybe she has a gift of hospitality and she needs a certain kind of freedom to be able to welcome people into the home so that she could serve them in a particular way that you're also hindering. And so even when we go beyond the walls of the church or our church-specific gifts, what is it like how do we even flesh out when how to cultivate and allow your wife to thrive

in environments that are just based on her skill set yeah you get what I'm saying yeah yeah yeah with that like I think I think a lot of jealousy might come into play you know and like I don't I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm this what we're talking about earlier I'm trying to get underneath why right because that's not my particular struggle so maybe we don't even explore why but we give counsel on how. Yeah. So not even why anymore. Like it's insecurity.

Maybe it's shame. Maybe it's fear. Maybe it's like the abandonment issues. But how does Ephesians 5, how should that dictate the way a husband leads his wife even when it comes to the skills? That's a good question. Yeah. I think Ephesia 5 is a good guideline because it tells husbands to love your wife like Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. You know what I mean?

And so I do think that that giving yourself up for her looks so many different ways, right? It is basically like Christ died, you know, so the church can thrive, right? And so like in what way are you dying so your wife can flourish? I said this in a podcast before. I think I did. But like if we pay attention, right, like Christ is not seen. his church is the one scene, right? You know what I mean?

Like when the world looks at the church, right? It is a reflection of Jesus, but it's not actually Jesus in the flesh itself. And so if Jesus is not tripping that he's not seeing, but his church is seeing and he gets glory from that, why are we not allowing our, like, why are we not dying to ourselves so our wife, our broad can also be seen by the world?

And so when I think about you, like, I'm just proud of you, you know what I'm saying? But also, too, like, I know, like, when I think about all the, all the ways in which you flourish and all the ways in which you, like, you're, like, I've seen you start off to be like this really dope poet. And I've seen you work so hard to become a great preacher. And I saw you every single year become better and better. And then I see gay girl good God. I think it was a very well-written book. but then I see, you know, upon waking and just like the way your writing has developed. And this is like you, like, and so for me, like it makes, I feel like husbands should be proud of that.

You know what I'm saying? And so I think that we really have to like, I don't know, like reshape the way we think about Jesus and how Jesus like nourishes and supports his bride. Yeah. You know, but I also, I know people might say pressing you always go back to discipleship. I think it's a discipleship issue. Cue the hat. Yes. Cue the hat.

Because I think that. Green hat. I think the way. Yellow font. I think the way we. With the word disciple on it. Yes. Because there are people listening who don't know what I'm saying when I say cue the hat.

Oh, cue the hat. I got a disciple hat on. Bold apparel. Bold apparel. Dot shop is our clothing line. And where you can get a hat that says disciple. But yeah, I think it's a discipleship issue. When you say QDA, I'm thinking you're talking about the camera.

I'm like, I don't know if you want me to like. No. I think it's a discipleship issue because I feel like that we have to like, like, like disciple men to just be to be holistic great leaders. You know what I'm saying? Like I think men feel like they only have to be leaders in the, in the areas in which, which looks like strong and like. Dominant. And it's just like, no, like being a leader is dying. It's dying.

Like I felt like I use this example all the time when we first started doing poetry and I loved traveling doing spoken word poetry. But it became very obvious to me that the Lord wanted you to write gay girl good God. Clingly obvious. And I remember being at home with our first child because you had to write every day. And I remember for a while, it was like, it was. so hard for me because I was just used to being out being out yeah but I was like we didn't have nannies at the time you know me and it was just like no like I got a doubt of myself so this work

can be completed and I yeah I'm rambling but I I feel like that's leadership yeah that's also leadership I feel like that's the aspect of leadership that we don't often talk about yeah and I think I think a part of your security and I think a part of a man's security is primarily should come from the Lord. But I think secondarily it is influenced by the way a wife stewards the gifts and skill sets and assignment that she has. What do you mean? So if you move in a way where it seems as if what you're doing in life is more of a priority to you than your family, then your husband will feel insecure. Yeah. He will feel jealous for your affection. Yeah. He will feel. And That's a righteous jealousy.

Right. Like he will fill away. You know what I'm saying? And so I think it's unfair to say, oh, all men should let their wise fly. Sure. But what you do when you get in the sky matters too, right? And so it's like for me, and I just came off. That just came off the hip.

I think for me, I've made it my business to show you and our children that y'all are first. Right. And so that means like I could be traveling way more than I do. Yeah. I could be writing way more than I am. Yeah. I could be out here. You know what I'm saying?

And there's a big part of me that enjoys that. One, because I'm walking in my gifts. Two, because I'm a busy body. I'm ambitious. I like to do all the stuff, right? But my pace is slower for the sake of my family. Yeah. And I think because of that, like you have a level of security that you wouldn't have

so that you're able to like, like you know that when I say yes, I've considered y'all. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. So why are you making a face? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything that you're saying is true.

Doesn't make sense what I said? It makes a lot of sense. Are you sure? Yes. Because you're squinting. Yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. No, no, no, I wasn't squinted because you were saying, I was squinting because I was thinking about something else.

I think I just processed. Oh, you got a word. No, I just, no, I just processed why I was having a hard time thinking about this conversation. Got it. earlier. But did you finish your point? I do, okay, I do want to dig into it a little bit more. Okay, go. So I think as, as women, as wives,

I do think that we, especially when we're in context where complementarianism is a thing and blah, blah, blah. Like, I think it can sometimes, we've been on, we've had the short end of the stick. Yeah, yeah. Of being able to walk in some of the giftings and skill sets. it's an assignment that God has for us.

Yet at the same time, we don't want to be so haughty in a way where it's like, no, you got to die too. You got to surrender some things too. Like you have to limit some of your like tasks too for the sake of your family, for the sake. Because I think that honors the Lord, right? And so we don't want to dishonor God where we're so committed to walking in our gifts

and so committed to walking in our assignment that we forget that we actually have a more preeminent assignment. which is to love our husbands and to love our children and even to serve our church. Yeah. That's all. And I just wonder like how, you know, I talk about, I think we hear children say that a lot, that they feel like their parents chose ministry over them. Correct.

I just wonder how much does that play a factor in marriages between both sexes? Yeah. You know, but I was thinking about a couple of minutes ago was just, for me, I think I have a hard time dealing with this issue sometimes. And I think I have, I think the reason why I try to figure out what's underneath it is because I think I have a hard time empathizing with just any married couple, wife or husband, who don't, who don't rock hard for their spouse. Okay.

Because for me, it's a loyalty thing. You feel like, oh, like, that's what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. It's a loyalty. thing because it's like, do you not love your spouse? But I don't, you know what I'm saying? Like for me, it's kind of like.

It was the tone. Yeah, it's kind of like, do you not love her? Or do you not love him? And I get jealousy. It's not rational at times. But for me, like, it's like a lawyer. Like if I, if I created a project. Yeah.

Right. And if I thought, so I just released a book. Shout out to my book. Yeah, I'm not sure. What's the name of it? It's called How to Tell the Truth. Okay. But I felt like if you didn't come behind my book and support it, I'd be like, hey,

like, you really doing me like that? Not even come behind, go before. Go before. Because like that's, you finishing it. Yeah. Don't allow your insecurity to make you a disloyalty person to the person you said I do to. That's just, for me, that's just, ah, like, because I'm, loyalty is such a thing to me. Yeah.

And so, like, I remember when you create a whole end of the hour, and I remember how hard it was. And so I'm like, man, let me go out and make her. a special cake with her book on it. That was sweet. Yeah, because it was like, man, like, my G just finished. And so it's like, for me, it's a loyalty, loyalty thing. And I think that, like, man, like your wife, man, like your wife and your husband, like, both. Like, we out here doing ministry for the Lord, working hard, you know, like, yeah, I just think

that insecurity is such an unfair thing when your spouse is trying to do a work for the Lord. And I think, I think some of this is. we need to call a thing a thing. Yeah, yeah. Because sometimes we are cheating on our spouses. And not with another person. But will work. But we'll work.

Or with our gifts or with, you know, assignments that, like, you can have an assignment, but you can place an inordinate degree of time and effort and attention on it where now it becomes an idol. So, yeah. Yeah. So we have to, what you're saying is we have to make a distinction between somebody, just being in their feelings because they're insecure about their wife's success or somebody having like a legitimate reason to be jealous because yeah because they could be insecure because you're you're you love that more than me wow yeah that's good you know and so it's harder sometimes to put it to death because it's like well i'm not cheating on you i'm not watching porn i'm not flirting with men it's like

yeah but you're all of your attention all of your affection all of your like all of it is still going towards something else. But I also think... So I'm competing with the thing. I think there's so many layers in this conversation. Because I remember us talking about like, you know, I think

sometimes men might have a legitimate reason to be jealous of their wife in ministry because they can go out and start killing it and it's like, oh, what about me? Like, you know, I have desires, have needs. I have, you know, I want attention, you know. But then you talked about how like sometimes

can we talk about like why people run the ministry. Like why like, like, or run to work? Run to work. If we're honest, work and ministry can sometimes feel easier than marriage. Yeah. And sometimes you feel better at that thing than you feel at your, like in your position

as a wife or a mother. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So like, I feel like writing a sermon and showing up to do a podcast or having conversations on a panel, like, that is easier than having to clean the kitchen and discipline the children and train them up in the instruction of the Lord and making sure there's dinner and paying the bills and making sure we have a meeting with our accountant and talking to you and working through trauma and issue. Like, it can seem like the work doesn't take as much work.

And I think we have to be honest about that because that might be the real motivator behind our ambition is not simply that we're ambitious is that we're running. Yeah, we're running from difficulty and running into things that are more affirming, things that are more natural, things that are more easy. But truth be told, you don't have the same warfare when it comes to work as you do when it comes to maintaining the health of your marriage, right? And the healthy your marriage actually influences the beauty and the efficaciousness of your work.

Yeah, ain't that deep? So I think that perspective and being honest and self-aware with ourselves will, like, create conversations around stuff that I think can create peace. That's deep. That's deep. And I think it's deep how it's all intertwined. Like one always is going to influence the other. Always.

But I can see how both sex is, especially the wife who has all of these gifts and she's not applauded in the home like she is outside for her to run to work because her husband, because he feels away for whatever reason, right? You know, he's not, you know, and I think that that just speaks to just married couples, you know, as a whole. It's like, man, if your wife or if your husband gets more praise for what he does and the public thing, he gets more, or he or she gets more praise for being a husband or wife or father or mother, man, it's going to be a temptation for you to run to that. And I think that's just more the reason why, you know, the husband should, like, do a good job of praising, you know what I'm saying. Affirming. You know what I'm saying? You know, like her as a wife.

You know what I mean? Maybe she wouldn't run to ministry, you know, to feel good about herself, right? Or work. To feel good about herself. And vice versa. That's, that's, I don't know. Because, I mean, when we're in a pretty entrepreneurial-centric culture and city being in Atlanta. And so I think these conversations around work and how that relates to. marriage and parenting are necessary. I was reading this book by Kurt Thompson about desire. I don't remember the title.

But he said so much of our issues in life is because of our desires. And he said, we need to ask the question of, what do I actually want? And what do I want? And when you discover what you want, you can actually get to the root of why you're doing what you're doing. Oh, that's good. So if somebody is acting in a way, they're limiting the thriving of their spouse or or somebody's acting in a way where they are

running to work and run into the podcast and run into the preaching and run into the sermon prep instead of like pouring into their spouse ask yourself what do I want what you probably want is freedom from the shame of feeling inadequate that's what you want yeah that's good so what you're doing is trying to cover the shame but if you say if I if what I want is to be valued if what I want is to be dignified, now you can actually get to the source issue and fix the thing, right? So now I can go to my spouse and say, you know what, I've been pushing you to the side and pursuing this thing because what I really want is value.

Now the spouse is in a position where they have to pray for that, where they have to figure out and process themselves, like, okay, what am I doing that makes you feel undervalued in the home? What can I do to make you feel more valued in the home? Like, when you ask that question, a lot of things change. Yeah, and I think I will want to, that's really good. That's super good. I think I would, I would just want to speak to men. And I just want to challenge men to know this, that gifts do not define your place in the home. It just doesn't say more. Gifts don't define your place in the home. Like, headship is a position. It is, it is a, it is a place where God has positioned us. in before he like told us to do anything right and so like your call to be a husband and to be a leader is not contingent on how well you are killing it in the public it is how well are you

willing to die weekly to serve the people in your homes for the embedermint of your home like like and so I think when we think about leadership I think that we need to refocus and reshape the way we think about like Christ-like leadership and servanthood, right? And so I think that if we think about, you know, giftedness and as it relates to our position as husbands, as leaders, as, you know, priest of our home, I think that our egos are going to be easily wounded. Do you have any practical examples from, I guess, even things you've seen in Brian or learned from Eric or seen in the scriptures. Like what you just said,

do you have any practical examples of how that could look? Man, I think, I think for me, it's tough, like I said, because I'm thinking about the men in my life, right? They've all, like,

I think I don't really have a man in my life who has, like, a wife that's, like, as in the forefront as you are. I think our circumstance. is completely different. It's rare, you know what I mean? But I do think, so what I told you, you know, a couple of days ago, a man came up to me and said that the way I, because he's really close to us and he's in our life, he said that

the way I've loved you has challenged him, because he's in the forefront, has challenged him to sit and say, man, how can I die to myself and like figure out whatever my wife want to do, how can I bring these gifts out and how can I doubt of myself in a way to let her flourish? And that blessed me. I came home and told you that blessed me so much. Because it was like, man, like he was just saying like the way in which I just don't hold you back, yada, yada, yada. And I think that's what it looks like.

I think, I think like, like looking at it. Jesus and look out he came to the earth to sacrifice for the people that he led and allow them to go out and flourish. But not only that, the church. He did that with the church. I want to just bring it back to that point. Like, Christ isn't tripping that he's not seen. But he rejoiced in his bride being seen, right?

Well, not seen like physically. Not seen like physically. But he is seen because I think that what we have to understand is that if you are good, healthy leader in the home, your wife flourishing, it's still a reflection of your leadership. It's still a reflection of your love. It's still a reflection of your, like, if I, if I, if I, if I, I, I'm not saying this to try to sound good.

I, I want, I want people. If you didn't stay home, my first book would not be out. Yeah, but not only that. Stuff like that. Stuff like that. I wasn't going to say that, but this, yeah, that's true. It wouldn't be out. Yeah, it would, it wouldn't be out.

It wouldn't exist. But not only that, it's like, because I'm your leader, right? in the home. I do have the ability. I didn't give you your gifts. I gave you. I don't can't take credit for that. But I do have a bit.

It's the pointed finger. I do have the, I'm sorry, I triggered you. I need a palm or something. I do have the ability. Look, look, I do have the ability to hold you back. I do have ability to like make your job hard, right? And so like, but if I don't, like in a lot of ways, the way in which you are effective in the world is a reflection of my leadership.

Right? And so like, what if we reshape the way we think about leadership? Like, what if we think about like, man, like, she killing it because I love her well. That's good. She's killing it because I've nourished her well. That's good, sir. She's killing it because I've cultivated, I've cultivated our marriage and our relationship in a way that allows her to kill it.

You know what I mean? Like, like, like, and I think that's what that's what. it looks like for the church to be seen by the world. It's like we are, we, the church is a reflection of God's wooing us, saving us, cultivating us, nurturing us, loving us. Like that's the reason why the world sees all, everything the church does that's great is a reflection of him caring for us. And the same thing can be said about marriage.

And so I think if we think about leadership in that way, I think then we won't have such wounded egos. That's fantastic. I had to flesh it out. That was great. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. I don't even know what to say. Sorry. You can give me a kiss. You just always take moments to do things like that. I don't got nothing to say. Jackie don't have nothing else to say. I just feel like the mic was dropped. You said what you said. I mean, are there some resources that you recommend and thinking through that? I will say this.

I think something we said without saying is that a big, a big, a really helpful tool in working through this stuff is talking. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So like when you're feeling, when you're feeling insecure, when you're feeling jealous, when you're feeling egotistical, it's, it's the feelings that we're not talking about out loud. And so we're probably projecting.

We're probably manipulating. We're probably hindering. You're probably being real past aggressive. Like, oh, you love the church board. You love me. Like, but let's actually just sit down and talk and process. And be and pray. And be humble.

Be like, be honest. Just be real. I did feel insecure when you was out. Yeah. Traveling the world at one point. Yeah. And that's because I felt like, oh, she loved, she loved them more than me. And I told you that.

Which was projection. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, man, I was using this little small apartment. Can I explain why it's projection? Yeah, yeah.

Because we talked about this yesterday at family life. So there are sometimes that what you're seeing and feeling is legitimately you discerning what's happening. Right. So you could be feeling, no, that person is loving their work more than me. That could be legitimate. Yeah, yeah. There are other times when what you're seeing is coming from a place of trauma. And so now you're projecting.

previous pains and previous traumas onto behavior that is ambiguous. Yeah, I said that before, yeah. And so I think for you, being a man who was rejected and abandoned, you're projecting that fear onto me when you can actually look at facts and details about how as soon as I'm done preaching,

I don't stay at the conference, I fly home immediately. While I'm there, I honor you. I'm saying no to so many other things to make sure that I'm home six days out of the week. Like there were so many things that actually showed. Yeah, it's a difference between your spouse wounding you and triggering old wounds and you that you haven't dealt with. Correct.

Right. And so, like, yeah, you show so many signs. But like I said, like, I think that if we have this deep insecurity that we're going to be abandoned or forgot about or not respected or whatever the issue is, like, it just comes out when we're just honest with one another. And I think a lot of times in marriage, we just be feeling the way we feel. and we just like like it kind of goes with our emotional adultery conversation we had doing the podcast.

It's like our motion. The podcast tour, yeah. You know, like our emotions start to like be like a source of just all reality in our minds and in our hearts. And we start to think about the things that we have in our head for so long and they just become the source of truth. Our emotions become the source of truth because we don't want to talk about the way we feel. And so now your spouse doesn't have the ability to actually explain their hearts, explain why.

You don't even know if she's just on a roll 24-7 because that's the only place she feels valuable. You think she's just dissing you or whatever. Or she doesn't respect you or she respects the past or she respects other leaders more than she respects you. And it's just like, no, like maybe she really wants your respect. Maybe she really wants your love. But because she's in the position that she's in, she probably just feel like she can't get it. Right? And so like I think just talking, being honest, being real, being transparent about your emotions, like communication is just key in marriage. It's huge because because we're not built to come to conclusions in isolation.

Oh, yeah. So even when you look at the fall, the fall was because Eve came to a conclusion without community. Yeah. Right? Yeah, by ourselves. So Satan has given you an idea. you are making considerations about this tree without actually talking to the other person

in the same garden to you about it. And so if you invited the other person into the conversation, they would have been able to interrupt the lie. And I think that's what communication does. Is it interrupts the cycle that probably has some lies up in it? Yeah, but also too,

I just want to bring it back to my brothers because the only reason why she was able to have the conversation alone is because you didn't be a leader and join in. My God. Like. My Lord. And so, and so if your wife is choosing.

Jesus. If your wife is choosing ministry or choosing things or even doing things alone, like how are you not being like Adam sitting on the side in your feelings? And you probably doing the same thing. Adam did with Eve was just you just let the devil lie to your wife over and over again because for whatever reason you don't want to talk up, you don't want to speak

and I think it's our jobs as leaders to speak up even when we fill away to communicate even when we fill away to like talk to your wife because you got to know the enemy talking to her but listen the way you talk is also the perspective because you don't talk to your wife as if she's the enemy

You talk to your wife as someone who is in the image of God with you and someone you're protecting. Yes, that's good. So if you see it as let me discuss a situation as protection, instead of let me discuss a situation as a defense, even your tone is different, right? And so I think as women, we receive truth when we feel like it's coming to us in love versus it's coming to us like a demand. That's good. That's good. Well, I don't have nothing to say. Yeah, I think that was good.

This is a good conversation. Bye, you. With the Perry's is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, Abishai Perez, and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hop and Music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.