With The Perrys - Talking About Social Justice is Awkward

Episode Date: August 9, 2021

Let's be honest here: social justice is an awkward topic nowadays. Depending on who you're talking with, it can be an antagonistic conversation or a helpful one. In this episode of With The Perrys, Jackie and Preston discuss why social justice chatter can be awkward and reasons why it shouldn't be. Book Recommendation: Reparations: A Christian Call for Repentance and Repair   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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It's the Saints in the Age. What? Ruben stuttered. It's the Saints in the Age. The evangelist. You don't like that? No, I don't. Did you used to watch American Idol?

I did. I love Simon. Simon. Oh, Kyle. Yeah. Yeah. He was honest. Yes.

I feel like he created the most growth in people in that show. Yeah, Paula was Paula. I ain't like, what's his name? Randy? Yeah, Randy. Man, you do. I mean, I don't know, dude. Boy, get out of here.

He just smiled a lot. I don't know why people that smile a lot make me uncomfortable. Like, there's this lady on Food Network who, Remember I showed you her? Oh yeah, you did. Every word she says is a smile and it makes me uncomfortable because it's like your face never falls. Like it's just a permanent grin and I don't even know how she does that. You sound like a grinch.

Who me? Yeah. I hate smiling. I'm not mad at her joy. I'm fascinated by the fact that your face won't fall. Like I don't understand it. Like everything we say like when you say like, I don't know, crimfresh, let me. me say some bananas like should you smile when you say that bananas let me get a bow

put some salt here it just it don't it just doesn't feel right but anyway we wanted to talk about why talking about social justice is awkward it's so weird that people are like awkward and like feel very um have grown very um yeah just weird about this it's all of a sudden. I don't get it. What do you think it is? I think it's probably a lot of things. One, I think because it's a really tense conversation.

So anytime something becomes tense, it becomes awkward now. Right. Because it's like, if I say social justice, it's like, oh, are they going to cancel me? Are they going to call me Marxist? Are they going to say I'm a CRT? Are they going to say I'm leaving the gospel? So there's all, though, it's just so many questions around how, will this conversation be received?

Yeah. You know? And so especially for me, I'm a very awkward individual and people don't know that. And so I think engaging in anything that is just like, I would do it because it's biblical. Yeah. But that's not to say that I want to all the time. Yeah. I think for the most part, you hear so many different opinions about it.

That's true. When you, when social justice is brought up, I think a lot of people don't know what side to choose. Or what to believe. Or what to believe or what to say, afraid that they're going to say the wrong thing. And I also think that some sides have worked so hard to make social justice some evil thing. When it really is just justice applied socially. Right. That's all it is.

It's like, you know. Have you ever had a conversation yourself that was awkward or has it always just kind of been more on the tense side of things? No, because I don't really care about anybody. saying I'm this or that when I talk about it. I'm not saying you have to care for it to be awkward. Well, I think you do have to care because, well, for me, the only way I would be awkward if I did care. The other person could be awkward.

Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, yeah. Yeah. I think I've had, you know, some people be awkward. And I've also had some people just jump to, you know, to defenses when I bring it up. Because I think that, you know, some people, like I said, have created a framework

based on the people that they listen to, that when somebody is bringing up social justice, they automatically look at these people as social justice warriors or critical race theories or whatever. And so, yeah, they don't know what to do with themselves. And so I found myself having to do the hard work of showing them what a healthy Christian looks like that talks about social justice. Yeah.

I think an element of awkwardness really is fear. If we strip it down to its core, it's, I feel uncomfortable and I am potentially fearful of having this conversation because of how I might be perceived or how the other person might perceive what I'm saying. I guess the awkwardness exists really just when you're engaging with people that don't think about it in the same way that you do. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And let's be frank. The awkwardness, for the most part, is between black and white parties.

It is. It is. Because it's not awkward when I talk to black people about this. I think, I think one thing that creates the awkwardness or, for lack of better words, the tension when talking about social justice is I think that some Christians have been taught to think about social justice in the most extreme ways. Explain this. And so. And so when you hear somebody talk about social justice in a negative way, it's always the extreme views of social justice people who, because let's be real. There is a particular type of person in the world and in the Christian community who does not have a balanced view of what social justice should look like.

And so you have people in the Christian community who say that social justice. is wrong and it, you know, takes us away from the gospel. And when you say, give me proof of that, they automatically present these Christians who feel like black people should leave churches with white folks and people who feel like, you know, everything that ever happens in the church is racist. Like, you do have those extremes. And so what I think What will create a lot of unity

And also cut a lot of that awkwardness And that tension Is talking to a diverse group of people Who believe in social justice And not just look at the extremes To paint it to be some wrong thing You know you just said something That triggered a thought to me

What? Which so now I retract my original statement Because originally I said The awkwardness is only between black and white parties But that's actually not true No Because I just So why do you agree with me?

Now that I, yeah, I agree with you because I agree with you. But now as I process, I don't agree with you. So just continue your statement. Okay. So what I thought about is how I think when you talk to certain black people with a more, I don't want to say extreme, I don't want to even say developed, but with a different understanding of how social justice should look and how we should walk that out,

I think it could be awkward too because I've had it where black people can make it seem as if you're not doing enough, right? Absolutely. And so, like, there's the black people that march, that, I don't know, that help with policy and government. They do all these types of things, and then they might look at me

who's simply just communicating, whether on Instagram, Twitter, and all this type of stuff and they say, oh, you're not really doing anything. Like, your method isn't working, especially because you got all these white people that follow you. You need to disengage from them in general.

Absolutely. And so my argument is like, that's not the way I feel like I'm called. Like, I'm just in my lane. Yeah. So you feel like your lane is the best lane and it's like that's not really fair to say that everybody should do the work in the same way.

Absolutely. So that is awkward. Yeah, because not to make this comparison, even though, you know, some of these people weren't Christians, but even in the civil rights movement. And, yeah, I think was a very critical part, you know, in developing, you know, time in this country. Martin Luther King didn't have the same exact role than a lot of other civil rights leaders had, right? You had Martin Luther King who was on the forefront, marching and preaching and trying to bring unity between black and white Christians.

But you had people like James Baldwin who... A public intellectual. Who was a public intellectual. And for the most part, he stayed in front of white audiences educated them about the black community. So I've had people who criticized me

because of that. It's like, Preston, why are you spending so much time on trying to educate the white evangelicals or the white community about, you know, the black community? You need to focus on...

I had people criticize me about that. Oh, for sure. Like, no, like, There is a place for that. And I also have a burden for racial reconciliation and racial unity. And I know that if I have, if God and his sovereignty has blessed me or not, I want to say bless me, has given me a platform with white evangelicals, I'm going to love them well by educating them about the community that I come from.

So they can love black and brown people well. And so we can model on earth what heaven will look like. Yeah. And so, like, I think, I think, yeah, I think social justice, it gets sticky because I think one, on one side, you have people who are very self-righteous in how they do social justice. Right. And then you have people on the other side who have been taught that social justice is a distraction. These people are extreme. These people want the one what the world want.

These unrealistic. And it's like, no, like, we just want justice. We want a model justice. because God is a God of justice and we want to approach it on a social level. It's very simple. Oh man, that just stressed me out.

It's very simple though. Just thinking about all these different kinds of ideas and ideologies that we have to engage with. That I stress you out? Yeah, but see, all of these ideologies, they are formed by people who stay in their bubbles

and don't step outside of their bubbles to learn from other people. Right. And so I think that's the, I think that's the big. issue. I think that if you create a framework from somebody inside of your house and they're across the street and you never step outside of your house to talk to them, you look at them from your window and say, this person is this. This person is that. They're doing this because it is. Every time they're doing

this, every time they say this is because they're these type of people. But you don't walk outside and actually talk to them. You're going to have a framework that's inaccurate. And I think that's what happens with this whole social justice thing. It's just like... So you believe both black and white people do this? Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely.

Like, I have somebody, I'm not going to say their name, but it's a black guy who, every time I say something, he calls me a critical race theory. And he doesn't know me. Like, he literally does not, he literally doesn't know me, nor does he seek to know me. He's created a framework, you know, you know, about me because of the camp that he associates himself with. And he doesn't see me as a black person speaking from my own experiences and my own, yeah, the worldview that I come from.

He doesn't, it's impossible for him to see any good thing that I ever say about social justice because he's been taught to think that, man, anytime somebody talk about social justice, they're extremists. I think what makes this conversation frustrating, and I might have said this, before is that I'm not afraid of controversial topics, right? I'm not afraid to engage with things that are offensive. I try my best to engage on a way that's still loving and gentle and kind, but also direct, specifically as it relates to sexuality.

That's one of the most volatile conversations of our day and might remain so for a long time. Yeah. But I think it caught me off guard. when I saw and see Christians responding to conversations about social justice in the same way that I saw non-Christians who identify a certain way sexually respond to the truth or the call to repent. Does that make sense? So when I would present, you know, the gospel that says who and however you are, if you were born after Adam, you were born in. sin and the way your sinfulness often expresses itself, it will meddle with your sexuality, right? And the call to be a Christian is the call to deny yourself and die, meaning to deny those

affections that go against the gospel call, that go against righteousness, that go against holiness. That is extremely offensive to say, right? And so people will pickage you, call you a bigot, call you a homophobic, but I expect that. because the gospel is foolish to those who are perishing. It was weird to me that when I started talking about social justice, that Christians started to act and respond in the same way that I saw people in the gay community respond to the gospel call. And I used to sit back and I said, I don't even know if evangelicals in particular realize that they are exhibiting the same behavior I saw at Harvard,

Harvard when I was picketed. The same behavior. So why do you think that is? I idolatry. I think it's idolatry. In what way do you think is idolatry? So Duke Kwan has this book about called reparations that I really recommend people reading. And he talks about how what makes this conversation hard is, he says three reasons.

I can only remember two, which is people have a really beautiful view of themselves and their nation. And so anytime you say anything about their nation that doesn't align with the caricature they've made of it themselves, they don't know what to do with that. And so instead of saying, huh, let me see if you're right about that. Let me check primary sources. Let me read some books. It's, I have to demonize you instead of considering the fact that what you're saying about the country that I have flags all over my yard about is true. Like they'll rather curse you out. then admit that their country is not heaven. Yeah.

But then there's all there's there's there's there's the idolatry of self, which is I am a good person. I am a good individual. And so is my race. Some of us are bad, but most of us are good. Yeah. And so for you to say that there is the possibility that we actually aren't all like Jesus, that we all actually have some biases and some things inside of us that lead us to think that we're better than other people.

Like, I don't have a mask on. I've never burned a cross. And you're saying that that's like there's other ways to be racist. Yeah. So now they have to demonize you instead of admitting that they might just be a white supremacist. Yeah. And so I think that's why we see some of the responses is that to talk about social justice is to reveal people's idolatry of themselves, of their ethnic makeup and of their

country. And here we are. You set a mouthful. And I think, I think it, it, it, it leans selfish because it's like, I don't want to, I don't want to do the hard work. Ain't no lean back. Right. I don't want to do the hard work of, um, investigating this to see if it's true.

I don't want to do the hard work to investigate to see if it's true. I have a certain view of my mind of what this country, what white evangelicals, what white Christians around me look like. like, and you're threatening that. Yeah. You know? And so, like, that's, that's, that's really good. I don't think I'll ever get used to people who confess Christ being so mean when you try to be faithful to scripture.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, literally, any time I post something, whether it's about George Floyd, whether it's about Trayvon Martin, whether it's about this election, whether it's about white supremacy, see, I literally have anxiety because I know that people are going to be in my DMs, people are going to be under my pictures saying the most unreasonable outlandish things. And it just stresses me out. It legit stresses me out.

Yeah, but I also, you got to do what you got to do. I also think that, you know, it's a, it's, it's hard for people not to, not to involve like them. their actual selves in what you say because I think that yeah for example like when we say something about systemic racism or social justice where you what what they hear is all white people are bad and I'm a white person right and so a lot of these people are you know probably love Jesus but they don't know how to not incorporate themselves in what you're saying right And it's just like, no, like, you have to, you have to step back. If it's, if, if, if the shoe doesn't fit, you have to do a good job of not acting like I'm trying to make you put it on.

Yeah. Right. That's fair. You know what I'm saying? Because I think that's what happens. It's like, man, like, I have deep relationships with white people. And I've talked to, you know, these, my white friends about racism. And they know I'm not talking about them.

Right. You know what I'm saying? But it's just like on social media. It's just like when we say Even if we say anything about racism If you hear, man, they think all white people are racist It's like man, that's very poor listening And I think sadly

Lastly I want to say That's very poor listening But it's also You have to do the hallwork of stepping outside of yourself And listening to somebody's perspective To understand their worldview I wonder if that response is also because there are voices that are public and that are sometimes recommended that will say that all

white people are wrong, right? Yeah. And so I think there's this lack of knowing how to distinguish between who, who am I supposed to listen to in this conversation? Yeah. There's the people who are woke, quote unquote, who say we wrong, and there's that. And then there's the people that say some of us are wrong. Some of us are wrong, but they don't know how to discern who to listen to.

And so it just becomes more complicated. This is why I think people just need friendships. Like if social media is the only way that you're learning about how to engage in this discussion, that's probably why it's so dang on confusing. You ain't got no friends that help you flesh this stuff out. Yeah. And the scary thing is I think a lot of black Christians. Diverse friends.

A lot of black Christians that I know, including my, also myself, we see the extreme that a lot of people try to paint us out to be. Yes. We know the extreme. I think the danger is they're coming. Like there is a particular people group out there who have already started to preach this, this message that white black Christians need to disassociate themselves from white Christians. and we don't need no parts of their churches, yada, yada, yada. We don't need unity, yada, yada, yada.

And I think that's anti-gospel. I think that when they get louder, some will say, you see what this social justice stuff has done. You see what the social stuff. Only because you don't have the sight to see that, no, this other side of the extreme are not a representation of biblically sound Christians who are fighting for justice and in terms also fighting for racial reconciliation

and unity with their right brothers and sisters. You don't know the difference between the two because you have listened to a particular people group who haven't done the work of like truly getting to know and understand the perspective of the other side. And so when these people do rise and make a lot of noise, you're going to think that, man,

all of this social justice talk, you know, calls this. But no, I don't think that calls this. There are people out there who say they love Jesus,

but they don't. You know what I'm saying? And they do love justice more than Jesus. I think one way in which we can start to distinguish the two people groups now, the Christian who fights for justice and who loves justice from a biblical worldview and the Christian who comes up and says,

you know, black people need to separate from Christians and we don't need unity, we don't need a heaven that look, we don't need a earth that looks like heaven. It's to look at the gospel message in there, talks, IG Lives, Instagram posts, you know, like books, right? It's the gospel there. The gospel is the unifying thing. And truth be told, it's not a result of social justice talk.

It's a result of a lack of social justice. engagement. Absolutely. That's good. Like, I don't, I don't know one person that turned away from the faith because the church was talking about social justice. Yeah. They turned away from the faith because the church wasn't.

Yes. And they're hurt. Yeah. Right. And so why do I want your Christ? Yeah. And all of the black Christians that we know that walked away from the faith, they have walked up, not all, but a lot of them have walked away from the faith because of the

church's lack of involvement of, you know, of. talking about Trayvon Martin a day after he got killed, just having Bible study. You know what I'm saying? It's like, no, like, that hurt a lot of people. So my question to that is in the same way that, well, it's actually different. So in one way, talking to white Christians or so-called Christians about social justice is awkward because it reveals particular idols. I think for black Christians, it can also be awkward talking about social justice from a biblical point of view with other black people because they don't affirm the gospel in the same way that we do.

You know, they look down upon it. They don't want to engage with it because it's like you represent a white Jesus, you know? And so like how are black Christians also supposed to do this when it could be very uncomfortable, especially when these are your cousins. These are people you're dealing with at the barbershop. Yeah. Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult because they don't want to engage in the gospel or social justice conversation

because they believe that my worldview doesn't give room for social justice. And so I think doing the hard work of showing them that, no, the justice that you want, God also wants it. The God that you walked away from is not a representation of America. he's a representation of himself. That's good. And so, like, what I try to do is I try to present the God of the scriptures to people. And empathize with them. Like, I've talked to people on the streets and I'll let them know, like, man, I know you've walked away from the faith, not because of what God did, but because of the lack of involvement you saw the church have when it comes to social justice.

I know that it seems like the people group that you belong to didn't care about people holistically and didn't care about service. and they care about certain people groups, but no, that's not the God of Scripture. That's good. And even though we have, you know, a hard time, you know, with certain Christians in the body, that's not the representation of all God's people, you know? And so, you know, and one of the things that I love to do

is because I'm an NERRA, I'm 8, but I'm also a wing. I'm also a wing 9. And so I'm a challenger, but I'm also a peacemaker. Right. And so one of the things that I feel like we should, do is man but like i i'm not a fan of trying to win a black person back because he's hurt of it the the lack of involvement of the church but when it comes to social justice by introducing them to white people and saying they're good white people it's like no i want to i want to do the hard work of loving you right where you are right and restoring restoring you you know help

restoring you back to the to the faith and help changing your perspective about christianity But then after I'm good with you, I want to introduce you to some really, really, really loving white people who love me well, who have, who are not just in their feelings every time they hear the word racism. Who are not just in their feelings every time they hear the word systemic racism or social justice. But who has a more broader perspective of things that happen outside of their world. you have took the turn who have took the time to learn from black people and i think that does a really good job in the hearts of people who have been hurt yeah because i don't think that we should look for white people to be the savior like oh a white person has to come and restore my you know my identity or my you know no i think that a lot of black christians we have that burden to

to to to help people see god in his church in the right perspective but i also think that that racial reconciliation happens when somebody like me can come and say man like you've had a lot of wrong examples of how white Christians didn't love you well. Yeah. But there's so many white Christians who will love you well and let me introduce you to him.

Right. Amen. Good answer. Good answer. You have seen family food. Good answer. I feel like this is very antagonizing. Because I clap for you? That's probably my trauma. It must be. I mean, like...

Insecurity. A applause is literally like a good thing. Like, man. You're so pretty. Get healed. Thanks. We appreciate y'all. I'll leave some books in the show notes.

And yeah, social justice, it really is an awkward conversation. It really, like, I don't think, I know for me, it's never something. I'm just like, ooh, let me go make all the white people mad today. Right. That's really never on my agenda. And when you hear a black person talking about social justice, they don't hate all white people. Some of them do. Well, some of them do.

But a lot of them don't. A lot of them don't. So it's just like, man, at the end of the day, it's really about racial reconciliation. So we talk about the hard things so we can be unified. It's literally people telling the truth and the hope that the truth will be received so that there is unity between all the ethnicities. that's the whole point of the whole thing is that Jesus came to restore humanity back to himself and back to each other

and jack this up and so I mean if you want to work against that unity you can answer to God about that because you won't be able to say that you didn't hear the truth about what God actually wanted but for those who really do want to receive it praise God for you

amen and so yeah learn for people who different to y'all and yeah eat some good food okay peace Thank you.