With The Perrys - The Beautifully Confusing Trinity

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

One God, in three distinct persons?? Confusing, we know.  Book Recommendation: Delighting in The Trinity Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey Preston Perr Hey Jack here at Per The first time you went to St. Louis Did everybody call you that? Yeah It said stirs And said der And said call

And um Yeah y'all just added like four R's to everything I was just so confused by it But is it Ka? Is that the correct pronunciation? Okay in Chicago we We uh We take off the

R's Yeah and we at a edge. So it's not it's not stairs, it's stairs. It's not car. It's not, uh, it's not, uh, what it was, it's, uh, it's not, it's not, it's not party. It's potty. Potty. Potty. Pottie. Over there. Over there. Yeah. Yeah. So we take away ours. Y'all at ours. We do. And, uh, Memphis. It was, it was surprising to me when I, like, got around Memphis people. I was like, oh, y'all say here, here, there were stairs, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting how dialects develop because, like, white people in St. Louis don't speak like that.

Yeah. And white people in Chicago don't speak like that. Like it's two different dialects even according to, like, ethnicity within the same city. Yeah, yeah. I didn't realize that until I became a grown-up. I said, oh, y'all don't even say. Not at all. But they have a particular sound.

I can't mimic it. But like white Chicagoans, it sounds kind of like Wisconsin. Yeah, I was very shocked. when I started to travel outside of my city and I saw other black people say soda because in Chicago only white people say soda. Really? Yes.

In Chicago, all black people say pop. Yeah, St. Louis, everything is soda. Yeah, and so I was like, why is these get it? Or depending on if you grew up in the hood, they say sodie. They don't even say soda. It's so deep. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. Y'all also say, don't all y'all say deady? Diddy? Diddy. Diddy. That's my diddy. Everybody say diddy.

I don't know. That sounds weird even coming down to my mom. Daddy. Diddy. Okay. Anyway. That has nothing to do with what we're going to talk about. We always do that.

We always go on a little banter that has nothing to do with the. But I think it's helpful because you know, you got people right now, they're driving in their car, they washing their dishes, they're cleaning up the house. They're trying to pick up their kids from school. Right. They're digging up their nose. Nasty. So we are just, you.

you know, trying to introduce ourselves in a way that's super lighthearted and funny and comical before we get into the meat of the issue, which is the Trinity. Boom, Trinity. Okay, so this is the thing. Trinity,

the concept that God is one God that exists in three distinct persons, father, son, Holy Spirit. This is a doctrine, historic doctrine of the Christian, faith that confuses a lot of people. Yes.

But there's also a whole bunch of people that disagree with the doctrine of the Trinity. And so we felt, why not just discuss it? Because to discuss the Trinity is to discuss God. Yeah. If scripture is correct in displaying God as one God and three persons. And if he has revealed to us that this is the way that he exists, it's important. It's very important. So you the Apologist.

This is your water. You are an apologist too. Different than I would call myself a cultural apologist. You're still an apologist. That kind of deals in the realm of ethics. You as a kind of apologist, you deal more with like religion and doctrine and all of those things. And so you come in contact with this a lot. Yeah.

Because a lot of the, a lot of religions that are not Christian, they all have some. kind of doctrine about the Trinity that is not actually scriptural. Yeah, or just defute it and just reject it altogether. So Jehovah's Witnesses, what do they believe about the Trinity? They don't believe that the Trinity, they don't believe in the Trinity. They believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel and that he was reincarnated as a man. And then when he died, not on the cross, but on the stake, that he went back to heaven and he was Michael the angel again.

They believe that the father is Jehovah. They believe that he is the supreme being and they believe that Jesus is a creative being, the first and greatest creation of of Jehovah. And they believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person. They don't believe that he

is alive in a sense that a person is. They believe that he is God they would say that he's God's active force. And by person we mean not human. We mean being being being having life and existence right right and have the characteristics of a person which can be grieved he can be grieved can be upset right now islam what do they believe about the trinity they believe that allah is is god they believe that jesus is a great prophet um someone who

god sent to be a messenger um but that he's merely a prophet that he is a person that we should that we should have a deep reverence for but not worship. And, yeah, I think in a lot of ways they would just deny the Holy Spirit because the Islamic faith is very heavy on works, right? And so not a... And monotheism. Yeah, and monotheism, right? And so, like, this...

Scripture affirms. Right, yeah. Which, yeah, like, us working and us doing the things that we have to do. due to being right standing with Allah. Not Jehovah, Mormons. Let me just say this. Mormons look like Christians more than any other religion. Yes.

Right. And the reason why is because they have all the language that Christians have, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You know what I'm saying? They will tell you that, you know, they believe that Jesus is God. You know, they believe that the Holy Spirit is God. They believe that the Father is God. But then when you start to dig in their religion, they will tell you that they believe in the plurality of gods,

that they believe that there are millions and billions of gods in the universe. They also believe that when they die, they can progress to godhood. This is the reason why Joseph Smith, the man who founded the LDS Church, says, you know, that we can all become gods one day. That when we die, we can become gods who rule our own universe. And so they're very unique in that way. And so they believe that God was once a man who progressed to Godhood. And so they would tell you that Jesus was actually a man who one day progressed to Godhood.

And in the same way, Jesus was a man who progressed to Godhood, if you are faithful, if you finish a three-year missionary journey. Because that's when you see Mormons out, you know, handing out tracks with their little white T-shirts and black pants on. And bikes. They're on their three-year missionary journey like Jesus was on his three-year missionary. journey. And so the men are called elders, the women are called sisters. And so they believe that if they're faithful, if they do all the things, that they also can progress to Godhood. One more. So in Hebrew Israelism, we know that they have different sex with different beliefs. But is there

a consistent belief regarding the Trinity? Yeah, I feel like they all rejected. And so in the same way the Muslims would tell you that he is a great prophet, great leader. The Hebrew Israel, will say the same thing that Jesus is a great prophet, a great man, someone we should listen to, you know, but he is not God in the flesh. They would deny him, his deity in that way. And they would say that the father is the one who is, you know, they believe in penaltyism. They believe that there's only one God. And that's the father. And so. Now, a unique, what do we call, denomination one that's Pentecostalism? Yes.

Okay. So I think their advantage point of the Trinity is a little unique in that they believe that God exists in modes. Yeah. So I don't think that one is Pentecost would actually frame it in that way. But I do think that essentially what they believe is modalism. And I think it's really good that we're having this conversation because I think even the way Christians attempt to describe what the trend. is sometimes can seem like modalism. Let me do it for you. Okay.

Okay. So it's the youth service. And you got all these 12, 13, 14 year olds and you're like, okay, we're going to teach them to Trinity today. And so they get some water. And they say, okay, this water is God. But then they say, okay,

you see how water can turn into ice? That's the sun. And how this ice can turn into steam, that's the spirit. See, the same substance. but existing in three different ways. But the problem is that's modalism. Yeah, that's modalism.

Because they're the same thing not existing as three separate persons at the same time. Exactly. Right. And so God doesn't have to stop being the father to act as a son. Come on here. In the same way, water doesn't have to stop being liquid to act as steam. Right. And so I think a lot of times, I think,

Christians mean well when they're trying to explain what the Trinity is and to try to break it down to people. I had this clip on my YouTube channel, Bo, TV, while I was talking about the Trinity, and I was saying that God is one God who exists in three co-equal persons. And what Christians do not believe is modalism, which is this idea that God stops being, that the Father stops being the Father and access to the Son, and the Son stops being the Son and access to Holy Spirit. And then I had so many comments It was like, Amen, Preston. The way I'll explain it is we are a man as a father

But he is also a son and he is also a brother And it's like, okay, I get what you're trying to say But God doesn't exist that way Right? God is one God in nature Who exists in three co-equal persons And so when you talk to oneness Pentecostals They'll tell you that when Jesus, for example, was in the Garden of Gatsimity

he was actually praying to his divine side that this was not not the father yeah right he wasn't praying to another person he was actually praying to his divine side which I don't think scripture communicates right and so I think the Bible throughout through the Old Testament going to the new lets us know that there is one God

who exists in three co-equal persons the father the son and the Holy Spirit I do understand the reason behind trying to explain the Trinity in that way because you want you want God to make sense to people. But I remember one of the wisest counsels I've heard regarding it is don't apply or don't explain God in metaphors that scripture itself does not use. Yes. And so how scripture explains the triune nature of God is probably the safest way for us to

explain the triune nature of God. less we start to dive into heretical waters. Yeah. Now, is it true that some people believe that the Trinity is a doctrine that was created at the Council of Nicaea? Yes. Why? Because I think when you listen to with the emergence of Hebrew Israelism, which we have so many different camps in America now, and then Muslims and even Jehovah's Witness and even Mormons,

they will all say, they all teach this, this false ideology that the Trinity was something that, that, that, that was created during the Council of Nassia, which seven years prior, a man named Stratulian. Oh, look at you. Church history. Right. He was black. Yeah.

Yeah. He was in African. Yeah. He was North African. Look at that. Right. And so a lot of times these, these religions like the Hebrew Israelites and even the Muslim, they would tell you that the Trinitarian doctrine stem from white church leaders doing slavery.

And that's not true because Tritulian, who was this African man, helped define the Trinity seven years before the Council of Nazia in the third century. And so if he helped define what the, if he was teaching what the Trinity was seven years before the Council of Nicaea, we know seven years later when the Council of Nassia happened. It's not when they created the Trinitarian Doctrine. The Council of Nicaa was not the creation of doctrine. Yeah, it was a conversation. It was a conversation to figure out what do we believe as a church?

And when they came together to figure out what do we believe and what are we going to believe going forward, they came to the conclusion that no, God has revealed himself as one God who exists in three co-equal persons. Now, this is the thing. If we read the Bible, right, there is no mention of the language of Trinity. Okay. And so what scriptural basis do you have to argue that God is one God existing in three quo equal persons? Well, the Bible does say Godhead in Revelations, right?

And so it talks about Revelation. Revelation. I'm sorry. Black people love to put an S on the end of Revelation. So the Bible does talk about, you know, the Godhead, which essentially is the Trinity. but we see one thing I think that that that is important to know is that God reveals who he is over a course of time throughout history. And so there are things that Jesus came and revealed about his nature that humanity did know in the Old Testament. That's a really good question.

such as how we are supposed to accept the law and how we're supposed to live by the law and how we're supposed to not be under the curse of the law or whatever. We didn't fully understand these things about God and how we should worship God into Jesus came. That God would fulfill the law through Jesus but not abolish the law. Absolutely, right? And so I believe in this thing called progressive revelation that God reveals himself over time. And so I think when we see how God exists in scripture, we see that over time, God is slowly revealing how he exists as God, right? And so we see this in the beginning in Genesis when we see that when God created the world, we see that there are three separate people actively involved in the creation of the world.

We see that the father speaks and initiates the creation of the world. We see that the son comes then and creates all things. we see this in Hebrews when it says that Jesus made all things the heavens in the earth and the heavens was made by the work of his hands. We see that the Holy Spirit came and hovered over the face of the deep, solidifying all that Jesus had made in the same way that an eagle will hover over its nest, making sure the egg and the life is brought forth. And so we see all three members of the Trinity actively involved in creation.

And then later on when you come and see the, the New Testament, Jesus is making claims only the Father God can make. And it's like, so if he is not equal with the Father, why is he saying things like God, the Father, glorify me with the same glory that I share with you in heaven before the world. It's the word share for me. Right. It's the word share for me. Yeah.

And so this is ours. Right. So if Jesus is not equal with this, with the Father who is God. So of the Old Testament says in Isaiah 428 that God shares his glory with no other. And then Jesus comes and says things that that seems to contradict that if he's not God. When he says that the Father glorify me with the same glory I share with you in heaven before the world began. We see why is this, if he's a creative being, how can a creative being then come and say things like that? that if he is not equal with the father. And also too, from the one that's Pentecostal view,

right, for those who believe that Jesus kind of like acts in modes that he stops being the father and acts as a son and he's a human being praying to his divine side. So essentially Jesus in the garden of Gatsimedes praying to himself, why does he use language like share? Like no one can share something with them with themselves, right? Why does he use language like my father? You know what I mean? And so like we see that I think it's difficult to wrap our minds around the fact that God is one God who exists in three co-equal persons because it's so unlike how we exist. Yes, it is that we are human and finite.

And so our brain has a cap. Absolutely. To what it can understand and fathom. But God exists as a transcendent, unique being, meaning God is completely independent of earth, meaning he doesn't need anybody for him to be himself. Yeah. But he's also transcendent, meaning he exists in a completely different way than we do. Yes.

And so I think some of the pushback about the. the Trinity is just out of us not being able to understand that God is different. Yeah. And the crazy thing is when I've had conversations with my Jehovah's Witness friends or my Mormon friends, whatever, one of the things that they say, they always bring in logic when it comes to talking about the Trinity. And then they say things like, don't just say because he's God, because God is a logical God. But it's like, okay, you believe in logical things too. You believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel when the Bible doesn't support that, right? You believe that God spoke the world into existence like I do.

That's not a logical concept. Right. Right. It's true. But at the same time, when we think about what you just said about how God doesn't need these things to exist in the way we need, like time, space, and matter, we see that when he doesn't need these things and when he's not restricted by these things, it is very logical. then to see that God can be one God who can exist in three co-equal persons because I can't I can't do that because I'm limited by time space and matter yeah and so I my like my being cannot be disconnected to my spirit my spirit soul and body has to be wrapped up into one being but a God who is not limited by

time space and matter he doesn't have those restrictions I mean does that make sense we walking heavy because this is the thing like basically like god is god and it's and it's so hard because people can use that language as a cop out to not dive deep into like mystery and understand stuff right right god is god so we're not fin the question god it's like no like god has revealed himself he has given us a means to understand him that's why we have 66 books of the bible but that doesn't mean that we will fully be able to understand everything why because he's he's he's got even the fact like even something small like i was studying uh when god made a covenant with abram in uh genesis 12 13 14 15 15 one of them and how you know when abram goes to

sleep god manifest himself as a as a pot and a tort that don't that's weird yeah right but again god doesn't exist in the same way that we do And so is it possible then if God can manifest as fire on Mount Sinai and he can manifest as a burning bush that is not consumed and as a pot? And as an incarnate God coming through a virgin that it's also possible that he exists as three persons, yet one God. And let me just say this. And I'm going to be careful because I think we should be careful when talking about the way God has revealed how he exists. the Trinity is still a mystery. And so when I say things like that God is not restricted by time, space, and matter,

I'm not trying to communicate that I have somehow cracked this mystery or fully grasp how God has revealed himself, right? I only can understand what, or attempt to understand what he's revealed in scripture, right? That's what I can do. But what I am saying is for those who would try to bring the logic into it, and try to compare the way God exists to how we exist. We have to understand that God is not restricted. And I think even other religions will know that. They'll say, no, God, I know God isn't restricted.

But have you fully considered that when thinking about the Trinity and how he has revealed himself in Scripture? Or are you closely associating God existence with somehow how you exist? I'm one you cannot use these these human um restrictions to a god who exists outside of time space and matter it's just not logical right we are restricted because we were created in a time frame god is not you know what I'm saying we were created um like like when God created all matter in space like he's he's outside of these things and so you know like the Jehovah's Witnesses will say, can you and your father be one?

Can you and your father be the same? And it's like, no, like, if we're really using the logic of human beings, what God is, is one God, right? That's what he is in nature. And so when I think about me as a son, my father being Maverick Perry, like, I am technically equal with him in essence. As a human being. And so if Jesus is saying that he is the only begotten son of,

the father, he is making a very important claim there. He is saying, I share the same essence as God. Yeah. That's exactly what he's saying. And so to deny that the father and the son are equal in that way is to essentially deny Jesus' claim as being the only begotten son because nobody can be the only begotten son of a holy and a righteous God. In the same way, yeah, I share the same essence.

with my father as a human. Now, we've been way up in the clouds. It's not way up in the clouds. It is in the clouds. It's probably like right below the clouds. It's in the clouds. Let's bring it down the earth. All right.

There are some practical implications to God being trium. One, that we are made in God's image. Yes. Therefore, we are made for a relationship and community. Because in Genesis, God says, let us make man in our image. And I think that that is the reason why in Genesis 2 when God looked at Adam, he said it's not good for man to be alone. Why? Because if I'm made in the image of God, then it's not that I need other people to be fully human. Yes.

But it's that in imaging God, it's not good for me to be isolated from other people. Yeah, because he's never been isolated. He's always existed in a community of person. Absolutely. He is always like, God the Father has always been loved. loving the son. The son has always been loving the spirit. And even in God saving us, what does he do? He brings us into this love relationship with God himself, but also with each other. And so I really think that's why it's so problematic, for example, when people go into solitary

confinement. Yeah. Why their humanity and their identity and their sense of self and their mind breaks down because it's not good. Why? For man to be alone, because God himself isn't. Well, that's so good. That's so good because God created us. to image him in their way. He is a communal God, but also to add to that, I think for those who deny that Jesus and the Holy Spirit shares the same nature as the Father or deny that they've always existed

with one another for all of eternity, you have a hard time, you have a hard time proving that the gods you serve has always been a God of love. Okay. Let me rephrase your premise. You're saying that to make the claim that God is love, you have to affirm the Trinity. Is that what you're saying? Technically, yes.

And this is the reason why. What's the proof? The reason why is because if you believe that you serve a God who at one point created Jesus, right? and the Holy Spirit hasn't always been equal with the Father. You believe that at one point you serve a God that existed alone with no one to actively love. And so if love is an action that can only be expressed by loving another subject, right? To say that we serve a God who existed alone with no one to actively love, what is your proof? What is what epistemology you have?

Epistemology. Right. If an atheist comes and say, how do you know that your God? one point wasn't a god of hate when when love that is an action your god at one point existed alone with no one to actively love what is your proof that your god has always been a god of love i think the trinitarian doctrine gives us proof that we serve a god that that is always actively love someone and this is the reason why we know that our god is a god of love because he has never existed alone with no one to actively love so god did not become love

loving he's he is loving loving yeah he never had to he never had to become a loving god right he didn't have to create he didn't create his creation to become loving no he's always existed with his son and his holy spirit and they've always actively loved each other perfectly one of my faith i've talked about this book so much because it really helped to like help my mind, I guess, understand the way God exists as a Trinity called Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves. And he affirms what you're saying. He says this, now God could not be love if there was nobody to love. He could not be a father without a child. And yet it is not as if God created so that he could love someone. He is love. And does love. And does it.

not need to create in order to be who he is. Yeah. And I share that because it's not like you kind of just imagined this real deep thing that you wanted to share on 30 Minutes with the Paris. Yeah. It's actually scholars out there in the world that would affirm the same thing. Why? Because it's scripture.

Yeah. You know. Now, would you go in a limb to say that one must believe in the Trinity to be safe? And I know this gets dangerous when we start to exclude people. on the basis of our own interpretation, right? But for me, it seems as if, even when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and says, if you don't believe that I am who I say I am,

your sins cannot be forgiven you. Meaning if you deny me as God, the son sent from the father, then that means that your, your like eternal state is kind of on the line. And denying the fact that God exists in the Trinity an expression of that is denying that Jesus is indeed God, no? Yeah, no.

No, seriously, I do think that the Trinitarian Doctrine is in a lot of ways, and I've wrestled with this, I'm going to be honest with you for some years, but I do think that it is essential to the Christian faith. I think because when Jesus comes, I think that he changes everything. Jesus, he changes everything, and I think one of the things that Jesus, Jesus shows us is that he's not merely authoritative because the father sent him, right? He's authoritative because he has always been God, right? And so if we don't, if we do not recognize him as God, right?

And if we don't even recognize the Holy Spirit as God, we can be like Anonis and Safar who grieve the Holy Spirit, right? and who offends the Holy Spirit, right? We can be like the Pharisees who consistently disrespect Jesus because when he comes, they don't recognize him for who he is. I think understanding how God has revealed how he exists gives us really deep implications on how we should worship him. And so I do think it's important.

I think one of the beautiful things is when I learned how to to understand salvation and how the trine God plays a part in that because I think sometimes salvation, not all the time. We put a lot of emphasis on Jesus and we should

but like the Godhead is active in salvation. Like God the Father elects and sins the son. The son lives a holy righteous life goes to the cross taking the penalty of

our sin becoming a propitiation for our sin absorbing the wrath of the father that was meant for us and revealing the love of God so that we can see it and believe him and then raises from the dead and then sins the spirit to feel and seal us for the day of redemption and not even that like even now the holy spirit regenerates creating in the same way that he created the heavens and the earth he recreates a new heart within us and then sanctifies us making us holy like the father the son and the spirit and like gives us the church to to like do all the things like god is so active like the whole godhead yeah it's active in redeeming creation and actively yeah actively involved in our sanctification process in our salvation right i got another one

you ready yes okay so i was having a conversation with some somebody and they were like okay you'll know when i start explaining this thing they was like so why they be saying that god is god and jesus god all the same time like what they got to do with anything so i was trying to explain to trinity or whatever and then i somehow brought up how jesus is at the right hand of the father interceding for us and i was like well this is the thing i said god saves us and then jesus ascended to the right hand of the father and now he he he makes intercession for us and this intercession comes like the means by which Jesus prays for us it it works out through the spirit right and so even now the whole triune

god is active in keeping us and saving us and and and preserving us and all of that and they was like wow that means there's so much more power because the whole god yeah is at work in making sure I'm good. And I said that's exactly what it is. Yeah. The whole God is at work. And I just, I just think it adds a different intentionality and beauty

to the way we understand salvation. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's, and it's weird, man. I think one way we could attempt to understand the Trinity is first acceptance.

Right? I think it's hard. right when we have been humans our whole life it will always be it will always be but when we understand that god does not exist like us right just i had when i first became to became a christian and i first started to wrestle with these things i had to understand that god has shown me that i do not exist the same way you exist and so like let's see how i have revealed myself in my scriptures study me and don't try to figure out something that I haven't revealed about myself. There's things about God that I feel like we won't know until we get to heaven.

And even when we get to heaven, we probably still won't know because he is a big. The fact he showed up as a pot and a torch is all the proof I need to know that God is different. Yeah, yeah. But God doesn't exist like us. And so if we're trying to fit God in a humanistic frame, work we're going to fail every time because he's not he's not human well you know i intentionally avoided the eFS conversation about the eternal functional subordination of the sun oh my goodness but we won't go there not today another podcast all right all right what i'm supposed to say bye peace 30 minutes with the peries

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