With The Perrys - The Forgotten Art of Lament with Sarah Benibo

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Today’s podcast guest, Sarah Benibo, joins Jackie and Preston to discuss the church’s relationship with lament – or lack thereof – and the reality that we can still worship God through our expression of sorrow and grief. She explains how we are to lament by pointing to N.T. Wright’s quote that says “Lament is an appeal to God based on confidence in His character.” Our lament says “God, you are good, that I know. This circumstance I’m facing is not. Help!”   Follow Sarah online: https://www.instagram.com/sarah_benibo/ https://www.sarahbenibo.com/ Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, St. Nates, how are you? I hope you blessed. I hope you're loved. I mean, I know you're loved. I hope you feel loved. What up, y'all are you doing? There's a difference. What up snotty nose? Wow. Snoddy nose, Bucco. That's what we're going to call you. The devil is alive. Loroscow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, as I know the previous, one of the previous episodes, we don't know how we're going to order these. I'm sick. I don't got no makeup on. I can't breathe out my nose. I can't taste nothing. You're still beautiful. I woke up like this. Listen, somebody texted me.

They was like, how you feeling? I was like, I feel like my tongue is white. They was like, I don't know what that means. I feel like my tongue is white. I was like, because I slept with my mouth open because I couldn't breathe. And I just woke up like with my tongue feeling thick. It didn't feel right.

No, I don't mean to put your business out there, but like. What you were to say? Last night. Oh, snore. You sound like you had overweight spirit. I couldn't breathe, man. I was like, whoa. I couldn't breathe.

I couldn't breathe, dude. You sound like a coughing motorcycle. And all that time when you were judging me, you could have been praying. Could have been interceding. I'm like, man. Could have grabbed the oil. I'm not going to get. You could have put the argon oil that you put on your bed and you could have put it on my head.

You chose to judge. I'm not going to get no sleep, Bucco. Anyway, we got Sarah here. I've been trying not to laugh out loud. We got Sarah here. What's up, Sarah? How are you doing? How are you doing?

Thanks for coming. I'm really good. I'm so happy to be here, honored, truly. That's dope. That's dope. Now, I don't even know how to give context for you. Hmm. Okay, Sarah's from St. Louis.

We met because Sarah was in the gospel group called God's chosen. She would be at the youth stuff that I would be at while I was doing poetry and stuff like that. And me and Sarah connected when we both lived in Chicago. Yes. And then now you live in Dallas. Yes. You're the worship pastor of Embassy City Church. That's right.

you are a wife of one, a mother of two. Correct. You just had a baby. You don't look like you did. Girl. God is faithful. I'll be trying to hide it. Your cheekbones are popping out.

Thank you. Hello. And Sarah, not to objectify you, but Sarah's mind is my favorite. Like, you're just a brilliant person. Thank you. No, that means a lot because I love you. Like, me and Sarah, like, we be going on, because you're one of those people when we text, it really all the like, how you doing, how you been, it's never that.

It's just really deep, long, philosophical. And she's a great teacher. Yes. Great teacher, great communicator. No, that means a lot to me. I'm not someone that feels like you can't be fans of your friends. I know there's some theories out there to say, when you can't be a fan of your friends.

I'm a fan of my friends, especially if they deserve it. And I have been a fan of Jackie for a very long time, Preston. And since meeting you and watching y'all from a distance, I have become a fan of you, Preston. The way you support her. And you ain't no slouch. That's the thing. It ain't like he can't do nothing.

Bro is writing books and writing poetry and you are fashion. And you still seem to support her with so much grace. And I just love y'all. That's my apple jacks. I'm going to support my baby now. It feels genuine. I know you never know how people really live until you live with them. For sure.

But what y'all are displaying feels so real. And you are inspiring folks. Amen. So thank you. Amen. I appreciate it. Now, I think, I don't know what it was, but me and you had a conversation. I think about worship music.

And we were talking around how just asking the question of why isn't there any songs of lament in our worship discography. just riffle that. What do you think about that? Oh, my God. Where do I start? I think I want to start with suffering first. I think before we get to lament, we have to talk about... There's a difference.

Yes. So I'll define lament. The definition that I like to use is lament is a passionate expression of sorrow. It's a passionate expression of grief. sorrow is just basically what you feel when you lose something. Something is lost. Whether that be a relationship, a dream, a job, whatever that feeling that comes over you, when you realize something has been lost is what you then have to express through

lament. And we haven't been taught well how to do that, period, but especially in the church. N.T. Wright says that lament is an appeal to God based on confidence in his character. It's an appeal to God. That's the first part. But the second part is based on confidence in his character. So what it requires is for you to know something about God so that you then can appeal to the thing that is not congruent to that thing. So if we say that God is good and the Bible declares that God is good, if I'm experienced something that is categorically and biblically not good, I can appeal to God and be like, no, wait, one minute.

You are good that I know. this is not help do something. And I think we just have a lot of discomfort around that. We have a discomfort with calling God something and then experiencing something different, which is why what Lisa Fields is doing is so important to me. That book, when faith disappoints, is everything because that is what we actually live. And so then church becomes almost like this alternate reality because it doesn't acknowledge the most. Monday through Saturday experience of our faith. And there's a lot of reasons why. Tell us. But first, let's talk about suffering. Okay. When I was a child, I did not go

through anything traumatic. I have no traumatic story. Spoiler alert. Lucky for you. Lucky for me. Truly, truly, truly, truly, truly. I am going somewhere with that. This is not just me bragging. But no sexual assault, no abuse, no neglect. My parents are still married. They've been married for 45 years this year. Middle class family. Nothing happened. My life was boring in all the best of ways. And yet and still, I've always been what I would call very aware of my sadness.

I could not figure out why, though. Because it's not like, oh, it's because of that one time that somebody did this to me and ever since that day. It's not that. Wow. I call it like a shadow. It's like a shadow of sadness will walk around with me without a real reason to be there. And every time I would feel like, oh, maybe it's gone, I'll look down and you can kind of see it in the corner of your eye.

And so I knew, even at a young age, like around 12 or 13 for sure, because I have a memory that's connected to it, that that sadness did not belong in the church. Somehow, without it being directly communicated to me, it was communicated to me that we don't do this here. We are blessed and we are highly favored. God has given us good news. That's what the gospel means, right? So what you bring in that sadness over here for? I remember one time I was walking into the fellowship hall And this boy who I still know his name

I see his face I'm not gonna put him out there But he came up to me and he said Why you always look so dry Now first of all as a black person It's like you said I'm ashy Bro Broh Yeah like put some cocoa butter on

Mortified I am first very embarrassed Because wait what? I look dry I do lotion what have I looked like Secondly I was mortified because I thought in my mind, oh no, my insides are coming out. People can see me. People can see me.

I wasn't aware that I didn't have my mask on, my face on that. Hey, I'm here. So I felt seen and I felt almost like I needed to hide. So now that I'm older and that I've been to, you know, I've had a lot of experiences. I've gone to different churches and I've been exposed to lots of things. I now know what I was struggling with. And it was only in thinking and preparing for this pot that I realized I was struggling with what I call, and I'll be able to qualify this, pre-fall suffering. Now, that could sound blasphemous because how can something be suffering if it's pre-fall, pre-send?

But I call it pre-fall suffering because I think the conditions in which we were created into what God calls good, we call suffering. Break that down. I will. Yeah, because my mind was like, wait a minute. Genesis chapter two. So we know everything happens in chapter three, the whole world starts falling apart. But before that, Genesis chapter two, God creates humanity. God creates Adam, places him into the garden.

And the first thing God tells Adam to do is to work. That is one of the features of this utopian society. That's one of the features of this flourishing garden is that Adam has to one work. He has to teal and he has to cultivate. Tent to the garden. Yes, he has to tend to the garden. I talked a lot about this with Tim Ross on the basement. But you've got to get your hands dirty.

And we don't really like that in the West in a privileged space. We think that's suffering. The fact that things just don't come to me easily. Relationships, jobs, ministry, things that we have to actually try to do. Second thing, interdependence. First time God says something's not good. It's not good that man is alone. Now, I know that oftentimes we use that word man because we're talking about Adam, who was a man.

But we have to understand that before the genders were separated, Adam, which just means from the ground, represented humanity. Yeah. So it's not good for man, as in males, to be alone. and it's also not good for women, for females to be alone. And so God made us dependent on each other. That's what we call suffering. When we feel lonely, we're like, why do I feel so lonely? No, God made you this way, sis.

God made you this way, brother. Like, you have to reach out. You have to become vulnerable. You have to be seen. You have to be willing to come out of yourself. Last thing. These are the three features of this flourishing society of the Garden of Eden.

God creates boundaries. We all know about the boundaries. God puts the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle. Why the middle? Why not the side? What happens when God puts something in the middle of what you're doing? You've got to walk past that thing every single day to get to the other side. And if nothing else, because I don't want to start in putting my own translation in this,

but if nothing else, you have to at least exercise restraint. Because that tree, based on the biblical reference, is beautiful. It looks good to the eye. It looks good for food. So every time I have to walk past this tree, even without the serpent saying a word, I have to tell myself, oh, no, no, God said. Restrictions. It's a God-mandated restriction that we call suffering.

This is before three. God calls all of those things good. And when I was a child, when I was a younger teenager, especially, I didn't have this language. I just knew that I don't like to work. I don't like things to feel hard. Yeah. I don't like to be dependent on anybody. I remember going to the bathroom to cry.

Like, I did not want to be seen by people. I didn't want to need people. I don't know if that's, I don't know if you call it nurture or nature. But I just felt like that was who I was. If I had to express my emotions, I had to go away. Yeah. Yeah. And thirdly, I definitely didn't want boundaries.

Yeah. I wanted to be free and how I define free. What I define as good is not what God defines. You know what's crazy is? Yes, please. You know what's crazy is a lot of this stuff that you're saying gives me empathy for my nine-year-old. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

I love this so much. Preston, please talk to me. Because a lot of times I'd be looking at this girl like, why are you acting like you going through so much suffering? Oh, yes. Like, why are you acting like you going through it because you're struggling in math? Yeah. Or because you can't have this, because you can't have that. But it's like a lot of the stuff, I love the fact that you pointed out the fact that a lot of the stuff that God gave us naturally.

Naturally. To strive in our human condition, that can be a form of suffering. And I think it's because of, I don't know if you're alluding to our falling nature, our sinful nature. Yes. Yes. But it's because of our sinful nature. Oh my God, you're making me so happy right now because because the nine-year-old me, like if somebody had just figured this out, like, oh, she just don't like to work.

She doesn't like to struggle. She's a human and she's frustrated that this is causing it. Because even I was, I've always been like an overachiever. I want to please. I'm a people pleaser by nature. And so if I feel like I'm not doing that, it starts to wear and tear on my emotional state. Yeah. And so if I'm not getting a straight A or if I'm not.

not exceeding in certain areas, then you can start to see it on my face. Our fallen nature makes it worse, Preston. But I want to argue, and I'm willing for you to push back. I still kind of feel like this is wet cement, so I'm taking a big risk right now. But I feel like I'm in the book. There has to be an argument even before our fallen state, though,

that this still required some stretch. I want to really be careful on what the words I use. Some exercise. When I think about Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, what is that? There is a, even for the most perfect human that ever humined, there is a growing. So in my mind, I feel like Adam and Eve had growing to do. Yes. They had growing to do.

They had learning to do. They had enough to obey. Yes. Okay. But they still had something. They had a relationship. And a relationship, y'all know, there's a dynamic. There's a give, there's a receive, there's a take, there's a, and I feel like they were

in a process of growing and exercising and developing more knowledge of who God was. And they decided not. Yeah. There's a sense where, and there's a term for this. Okay. I learned in a seminary. I don't remember what it is. But there's a sense that just because they weren't.

Weren't sinful, they still needed to be perfected. Okay. You're right. Come on. This is what we texted about. So like the tree, I was listening to the Bible Project one time about the trees. Okay. And he was saying or arguing that the placement of the tree was so that they could still grow

in their trust, grow in their maturity, grow in their discernment, right? Because it's like they couldn't, you can't practice trust if you don't have. have an opportunity to distrust. Thank you. Right? I think people would get confused, though, if they feel like suffering is a product of the fall, right? And so I think they can hear, I think people can hear you say. So are you saying that they were suffering just because there was difficulty?

I would say that how we view it, how we view what they were going through, we would label as suffering. I don't think God would. Got it. I believe that God labels that. good. Got it. Because of what you just explained.

It's good because it what it encourages them to become. Is it good because it's merely human? Yes. It's just human. So Jackie bought me a book called Human Limitation, and I'm still in the thick of that book. But that is one of the beautiful parts of being human. It's to be limited. Yes.

And we've been striving forever to be God, and God never created us to be God. So the fall made it hard for us to be human. made it hard for us to accept our human. Wait one minute. I'm sorry. Oh, I really like that. No, no, no, because I've never thought about that. That is so good.

The fall made it hard for us to be human. Keep going. Because I think about one of my daughters who, a lot of times you can tell she hates the fact that she wants to be in the presence of her sister so much. And she just don't want to play with her. And like you can tell she's wrestling with this, I don't want to be needy at the same time.

I want to be. Right? I am. And it's just like I wonder if the fall never entered into human experience, like the human experience, would that even be a struggle? Like, will we have complete dependency? This is question. This is what I mean.

This is what I think. And I'm loving where you're going, bro. I think pre-fall with work, interdependence. Yes. And what was it? Boundaries. I think looking at Jesus as the second Adam gives us insight into what it would be like to live within all of that without sin. Right.

So you got Jesus delighting and working for God. Yeah. Saying like, I have food that y'all don't know about. And it's to do the will of my father. To do. He delighted in the work. And so part of me thinks even if the work was difficulty, there was still a delight in a contentment because of no sin. I think the entry of sin makes the work hard and our contentment hard to find.

You get what I'm saying? I think the entry of sin makes the interdependence either codependence or avoidance, right? Like the entry of sin makes all of that stuff just harder than it. Does it make sense what I'm saying? It does. I think when you look at Christ, then it can frame this conversation differently. Yeah. Because work isn't a curse.

No. Because God didn't give men work as a curse. No. He gave men a work. That was a part of Adam's job to tend over the garden, right? It became hard. The work became hard. And so I think what you're essentially saying is the things that like the things that God naturally

originally gave us has become hard. Yes. So in some ways, I think our humanity. Yes, y'all are getting it. And the issue is in our. lament, in our pursuit of lament, because we're going to get there, we're trying to escape the human condition. That's my argument.

Yeah. My argument is, yes, after sin, those three features is what I call them, they became distorted and grim and hard. But even if God decides to wipe all of that sin away and take us back to the beginning, we would still have these features. Yeah. You can't escape work. You can't escape interdependence.

You can't escape restrictions, God-given restrictions. And so if that's what you're lamenting for, then I've got to, I've got to reframe that for you. Interesting. I've got to reframe that for you because you're asking for deliverance from work and what you should be asking for is inspiration. Yeah. You should be asking for comfort.

Give me a passion for. Come on, you should be asking for passion. I'm saying we got to first know what guys are. design was before we go to God with our complaints, I have no problem with going to God with complaints. But before that, though, first understand his design, first understand what he costs good. So then you know what to ask for. That's actually really good. That's good. You're trying to get out of restrictions. You're not going to get out of restrictions. I just want to be free, Lord. That's never how it was supposed to be. Not if you define freedom as no restrictions.

Now, if we find define freedom as God defines freedom, then we're good. That's good. So that's my first point here is that as a child, I think that's what I struggle with. And then as I grew up and started experiencing more life and started making mistakes on my own, then I started struggling with post-fall stuff. And that's when things start to get really, really hard. Wow. So I raised Pentecostal.

I will always be Pentecostal because I believe that Pentecostalism is an experience. as opposed to a denomination. But I was raised in that denomination. And the emphasis in that denomination is the power. Yeah. That enters you after the Holy Ghost has come. I gave my life to the Lord going to a Pentecost to church. They wounded me, but it's not about me.

It happens, bro. Trust me. I know. It's not about me. I would say the flip side. I really want to be careful with words. The flip side of the power that comes is that you're not always going to be able to feel the power active in you, and when you haven't been prepared for that,

then you start to second guess, either if you have anything at all or if yours works. Yeah. So what happens when I'm supposed to have power, because I got the Holy Ghost, and I'm weak? What was your expectation that the power should do? Good question. I think my expectation was the power was supposed to be able to help me overcome.

Whatever it is, whether that be an emotional, distress, a physical distress. We quote these scriptures about laying hands on the sick and they shall recover. But I'm not experiencing that. So either the power don't work or I don't have the power. Why do you think some church did not? And I want to just pick on Pentecost because some of my favorite family members are still Pentecost.

Maybe listen to this podcast and they'll get on me real bad. First of all. But why do you think, like when we think about the God, man, when we think about Jesus, being fully God, but at the same time, he's fully human, right? Yeah. And so, like, Jesus is God, but he's human. And so, like, in the same time, if we're striving to be like Christ, it doesn't mean that we have to just lean into the power of God,

but also the humanity of God as well. And so why do you think that some church denominations are so bent on power more than others? I think there's, this is layered. But I first would say we're not impressed with the human part. We're not impressed with the human part, Preston. That's what I wanted you to say. Okay, good. Good.

Because I think that we should be impressed with the human part. Paul was impressed? Yes. Paul says that I may know him and the power of his resurrection. We stop. All right. We don't continue and the fellowship of his suffering. Don't nobody want that part.

Now, the reason I say is layered is because I'm thinking, what black person want more suffering? Yeah. Facts. Facts. That's a big part of it. I've already suffered enough. Yeah, that's a big part of it.

Just get me the power, bro. I got the suffering. But we don't understand that when we don't get the suffering, we're not getting part of what God has promised us. That's good. In himself. That's good. We're missing out on a whole other side of the identity of Christ.

You ain't a business. When we only focus on one half. That's good. That's real good. So I graduate from high school, go to Spelman. So that's when I was in Atlanta. Well, yeah, you were in Chicago at that time still. Anyway, I was in Atlanta for a couple years, for four years, went back home, got married and moved to Chicago.

Beal, my husband, he was already attending an inner city church in Chicago that was very justice-focused, non-denominational church. My first time, ever being a part of something that was not Pentecostal. I was a fish out of water. And I didn't want to be there. Truthfully, I didn't. Until I felt like God might be trying to stretch me, to your point, to understand the other side of the coin that is Jesus Christ. I remember walking home one day because we didn't have a car at the time.

I was walking home from church. And I was thinking to myself, dang, I feel worse leaving church than I did coming. Because they will always acknowledge the police brutality we live in Chicago, bro. They're always acknowledging like these senseless kids. feelings, I'm like, I'm just trying to go to church and have a good time. And almost as it came to my mind and out of my mouth, I knew that was problematic. Wow. That church had become for me, like a drug. Wow. Feel good, feel good, feel good. Hopefully it lasts for the next six days. May not, but hopefully. And I realize, oh, no, I got to stay in this place. I got to stay in this

unfamiliar, uncomfortable place because that's not what church ought to be. Church ought to be equipping me. to become the hands and feet of Jesus. Church ought to be helping me mourn with those that mourn, to comfort those who are comfortless. Wow. And that's not what I was getting from where I was from. So I need to find the other half of this and hopefully put them together.

Yeah. Because I still need the power. Yeah. And that is when I did a deep dive into lament. That's when I was like, okay, what? Lament. I heard a lamentation, but we stick to chapter three. Mm-hmm.

His compassion, they failed. not. What made you even look, dive into that word? Was it mentioned? They mentioned it. Okay. Because I, no, that is a legitimate question. Because I had not heard of that word. Wow. And maybe I had, but it didn't stick. Yeah. When I went to that church, they keep talking about lament. We're going to do a prayer of lament. We're going to do a prayer of this. And I'm like, what is that? So I started digging into it and started getting exposed to this whole other way of worship. Wow. And I'm a worship leader. I've been a worship leader. Even when I was in God's chosen, we are worship leaders. So lament is the other part of worship. Worship is how I define it is just when your heart is turned Godward. It is an orientation of your heart Godward.

So that means everything you do, it comes from wanting to please God, wanting to... That's a good distinction. Yeah. And so if I'm lamenting, that doesn't mean I'm no longer God-centered. It's actually the opposite. Lament in the Christian context. It starts with God. Who is God?

What does he say about himself? What does he say about me? What am I experiencing that contradicts that? How do I make my appeal? That's good. That is what Lamin is. It's taking these feelings, taking these experiences that do not align with God's desire for humanity

or for me in particular and saying, God, this is where I'm at. We see Hagar, we see Hannah, we see all of these people in the biblical narrative. going to God, like, what the heck? Yeah. Elijah. Yeah.

Said, just kill me now. Jezebel's after me. For the person who experiences worship in the other way, like where they go into church and worshiping. Exuberant. Exuberant, you know. And they say, I walk away from the experience feeling like this. Yeah.

Which, whatever feeling that, you know, they feel, it makes me feel closer to God. Yeah. What does proper lament do? walking away from properly lamenting, what does that do to the heart, the mind? That's good. And how does that bring you closer to the Lord? I think proper lament,

it separates the goodness of God from your experiences. It separates who God is from what you are currently experiencing in life. it allows you to see God for God himself as opposed to from what God has done through victories or through answered prayers or through all of these things that is true about God. Yeah.

It's just God is more than that. Yeah. And I think to your point, when you look at Jesus and you see the king of the Jews being hung on the cross, what does that do? Yeah. What does that do?

you like in that moment you're like how could he be king and be willing to suffer like this? There must be something I'm missing. There must be something that I'm not getting that that it's not always about victory and triumph and overcoming. It's about knowing God, being in a relationship with God and having his companionship on the mountain and in the valley. That's good. Yeah, that's good.

Focusing on the character of God. Yes. Not always in relation to him with you, but just. him himself, like beholding, beholding God. That's good. Beholding is good. It allows you to behold God without all of the extra ancillary parts. That's good.

I'm wondering, though, when you say lament is separating circumstances from God, how does that help you endure the circumstances if there's separation? Yeah. Well, I think because it helps you focus on God. actual blessing. Like the blessing of God in our lives is that we can be in relationship with God. So I'm thinking about when Jesus is talking to Peter

and he says, the devil seeks to sift you as wheat. And Jesus says, but I pray for you. And then he says that your faith not fail. And it's like, oh, no, no, pray that the devil will stop doing what he's doing. But there's something about what Jesus is promising. It's like, I'm not necessarily concerned about the hardship as much as I'm concerned about your heart. As much as I'm concerned about your faith in me.

And so I think that when you are lamenting, you are almost like resisting, resisting the enemy's plan, kind of like what he tried to do with Joe, to connect your circumstances with your faith in God. And when you can separate those things like, oh, no matter what I go through, I'm going to believe. in God, then the hardship actually becomes easier and more bearable. It becomes more bearable because your focus is now fixed on what's right. Your focus is fixed on the one that can actually take care of it or walk you through it. So it's in a, in a, kind of like indirect way, it helps with the suffering when you can take the suffering away, focus solely on God. And then God gives you the strength, God either delivers you, comforts you, corrects you, or redeems the situation.

I don't even know if this question makes sense, but I would assume that proper lament, thinking about the character of God, not always in relation to me and my human experience, but just him, will allow us probably to see God more clearly in some circumstances. Yes. Because it's not so clouded by, like, God in conjunction of what I'm going through. But it's just like, is that what you're saying? I'll give you an example. Isaiah 58.

The children of Israel are complaining. Oh, I really love this chapter because I'm proud of them. They're like, you're not answering our prayers. What the heck? We've been fasting. Yeah, they say that too. We've been fasting and it's as if you cannot see us. So this is what I would call a lament.

Why would I call that lament? Because they're talking to God. So they're actually believing that God exists. and they're stating their reality. You're not doing what you're asking you to do what's happening. And God then says, you're right. I am not answering your prayers and I am not acknowledging your fast because you have not done the fast that I commanded you to do.

So in this particular case, their lament provided correction. Sometimes we go to God and we're like, you're not doing these things. And I'm lamenting because I'm frustrated because you said that XYZ. And God is able to correct your understanding of what he actually said or of your misunderstanding of some sort. So in that way, God corrects us. Okay. Then we have comfort. He talks about Elijah.

He laments. He says, Jezbole's after me. You know, I got tons of men that are running after me trying to kill me. And the angel of the Lord says, take a nap. Go bed. Eat some food. Yeah. Because you got a journey coming.

That was comfort in them. So instead of focusing so much on the situation, we're looking at God, we're telling God the situation, but our eyes are fixed on him so that he can then provide us what's needed to get through the situation. So I'm not saying that lament is disregarding what you're going through. I'm saying lament puts the focus back on what the focus should be on. So that then God can strengthen you and give you what you need to get through it. That's good. I've been reading about this idea as of like two days ago, called. holy detachment or indifference. And I, y'all correct me, when I googled it, it was a lot of

like Catholic wording around it. But it's really this idea that you want to become indifferent to your circumstances in such a way that whether it's sunny or it's rainy, whether you're comfortable or uncomfortable, whether it's harsh or it's soft, you're focused on the Lord. And how, your focus on him makes you indifferent towards circumstances where they don't control you anymore. And I've just been thinking about like, oh, that must be what like the psalmist means when he says, like, I desire nothing on earth but you. Of course you desire stuff on earth. Like, you need a sandwich.

You know what you need some. Like there are natural things, natural circumstances that will take your attention. But when your attention is on the Lord, it just governs the way you deal with everything. I think that's what Paul means. when he's like, no, I've learned how to be amazed. I've learned how to abound. I can do all things through Christ. Who strengthens me?

And so I think one element of what you're simply saying is pay attention to God more than you pay attention to what you're going through. I love that, Jackie. The only pushback I have is that oftentimes when people hear that, especially the word indifferent, it makes them want to detach from their emotional state. Yes, that's not what I mean. And that's not what you mean. And so I want to just clarify that God gave you those emotions for a reason.

And so I think, yes, I actually could agree with all of it because what I feel like you're saying is that there is a priority of focus maybe. Because if I don't, a part of, let's say I'm going through a season where I'm abased or a season where I'm abound. A part of finding strength in it is being honest with God about where I am in that season. Okay. I'm abounding. Lord, I feel greedy. Come on. I want more.

I am being very successful. I haven't sought you like I used to. Like you have to acknowledge what's happening in here to even find the strength. Because I think that's what the psalmist was saying in this scripture. I think it's Psalms 23, verse 45. But he says, for whom do I have in heaven with you?

And there is none on earth I desire beside you. For my heart and my strength will fail. But God, you are the strength is my heart. He's beautiful. I paraphrase him. Yeah. But he says, but God, you are the strength of my heart in my portion forever.

and he's not necessarily saying that I don't care about nothing. He's saying none of these things matter compared to you. Okay. And so like, right? I'm sold. And so like if God is the primary thing, I think God being a primary thing just puts everything else in perspective. You know what I'm saying? In a healthy way.

And so if it is sunny outside, I'm not depressed because it's, you know what I'm saying? If it is not raining, you know what I'm saying? I do. I do. So, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Good. I'm thinking about Martha, who, you know, she normally gets a bad name because she's in the kitchen.

Martha Lazarus's sister, I love her because I feel like she's me. But when Lazarus dies, she says, Jesus, has you been here, my brother would have been alive. I love that. Like, there's so many people who call references. It's gutsy. Has you been here, my brother would have been alive. In that one phrase, she says at least two things. She says, you could have done something.

Yeah. Meaning that I have faith in your ability. Yeah. Because I'm not going to say that to everybody that wasn't there. Yeah. Because they don't have the power to heal. Yeah. She knew that Jesus had the power to heal at that point.

Second thing it says is, you weren't here and I'm disappointed. Yeah. And that is gutsy and that is relationship. Yeah, it is. After she says that, she said... Even now, if you... To me, that's what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, I care deeply about my brother. I care deeply about the fact that you missed the time to heal him. But still somehow, I still esteem you higher. Yeah. Because even, and we know based on what she said after that when Jesus says, this is not into death. And she's like, yeah, I know he's going to rise with everybody else rise. We know that she wasn't really talking about resurrection.

Yeah. Because in her mind, she had never experienced that. Correct. Correct. So she couldn't have been talking about that. She just knew that Jesus, you're more. Uh-huh. You're more.

I've known you as a healer. You didn't come through for me as a healer this time. But Jesus, you're more. So she's assuming him higher than her hurt and then giving him the opportunity to prove what he has never been to her. That's what lament does. It allows you to go to God and say,

now I know you to be a relationship healer and my husband says he wants divorce. So you missed it. But even now, I know if you ask of the Father that you could give whatever you want. Yeah, yeah. That is what Lament does. It allows us to put things in proper perspective and ensure that nothing overrides the importance of Jesus in our life. Proper Lament helps our worship not to be so self-censored.

Agreed. Because it's not like because God didn't perform on our behalf doesn't mean he couldn't. Come on. He's still God. Yes. Right. And he still can. And he still can if he chooses to.

He chooses to. How do you counsel somebody to lament when he doesn't, he still doesn't do it? Yeah. That's honestly my favorite time. That's my favorite time because I feel like it's the area that's most left kind of like up in the air for people. And that's when I just talk about the fact that he is Emmanuel. God with us. Yeah.

I don't think we really like. No, we don't be bad. We don't really focus on that. When you have God with you, like the difference between Jackie being home and Jackie not being home or Preston being home and Preston not being home, you're still going to be okay. I'm sure you'll be able to make sure the kids get fed and put to bed. But when he's here, there's a comfort. There's a relaxation that you can feel.

It's more of a comfort when she's here when I'm here, she's part of it. Well, you get the point. Don't be distracted. There's something about having God with you that even when he doesn't do the thing you want him to do, it's still enough. It's enough. And Tim Ross used to always say, like, God said at the beginning, each day was good, not that it was perfect. And I think, you know, there's a play on words there, but the way that we define what is enough. Like, what is enough?

Yeah. And that's what I would ask them, like, what is it that you actually need right now? I just need to make it through the day, okay. Yeah. Do you watch the series of Chosen? I do not watch Chosen. I've only heard good things. You don't like it.

I just haven't got it into it. I watched like half of the first episode and I was just like, I can't. Yeah, I like that. I do like a lot of the creative license that they, license that they had with the chosen because, you know, one character is Thomas basically, doubting Thomas or whatever. Like he has like a boo on the show. And she gets killed. And this is in the midst of Jesus doing all of these miracles, these biblical miracles.

And like he just kind of feels away. You know what I'm saying? that Jesus allowed her to die, you know, in the midst of you, like, healing this person from blindness, healing this person. It's just like, like, you feel the way following him. And I think they're playing on, you know, like Jesus coming back from the grave and revealing, you know what I'm saying? He's saying, my Lord, my God.

And then Jesus, you know what I'm saying? So I think that plan, that part hasn't got there yet, the resurrection after the resurrection or whatever. But I thought about him and I thought about, you know, people like him who, who knew Jesus and actually had the physical Christ walking with them. And Jesus didn't choose to heal everybody. Not everybody. Right?

Not everybody. But if they meditated on the fact that Jesus was with them, just like in the boat when the storm came. They doubted it, what was the first thing they did? Don't you care? Don't you care? They doubted his goodness. They doubted that he cared. But it's like, no, God is with you.

Because here's the thing. Yes, yes, yes. our greatest need is God, period. Like really, our greatest need is him. And so oftentimes we think that our greatest needs are other stuff. Yeah. Right. So it's like with Hannah, I like that story because it's just, it's interesting to me.

Like she's going through all of this suffering because she doesn't have a son. And then when she goes into the temple, she realized, oh, I didn't need the son. I needed you. It's good. I needed you. And then when she got him, she got the son. could love the son properly and not inordinately

because she got, you know what I'm saying? I've just been thinking about how like suffering actually just, it really just refocuses our attention on what we actually need, which is the Lord at the end of the day. That's good. You know? So I'm thinking about so many things.

Christian hedonism, of course, I'm a Piper fan, mostly. And he says, God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in him. And I think that God has purpose for all the reasons why he does and does not do. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it's to get us to that point that you're talking about, Jag. Yeah. Like, okay, how do I find glory in this? Like, God is still, even in the death of my girlfriend or the death of my boyfriend or maybe my baby, like there's still something that God is trying to gift me from him so that I can be satisfied in him. And finally come to that point where it's like, I thought it was the baby. Yeah. It's just you.

Yeah. It's just you. And it's been you the whole time. Yeah. So I cannot say that I understand why God chooses how he chooses. And that's why he's got I'm not. But I do know that there is reason for it and the goodness that comes from it is worth the struggle. That's really good.

Because I know for a fact, there were things that I wanted from God. Yes. Come on. That was not inherently evil. No. That was actually good things. But if I would, if he would have gave me those good things, I would have not experienced him the way he wanted me to. That's right.

And so if he is the ultimate, if he is the ultimate goal and the ultimate prize of our heart, right? If receiving him is what we need, sometimes God has to withhold good things from us so we won't miss out on the ultimate good thing, which is him. And I think a lot of times, I think that's also suffering. Like I think I made a real about this other day. but my child came to me asking me for something and I told her no and I couldn't even tell her why I was telling her no

because she wasn't old enough to know yet right and so I had withheld a good thing I withheld something that she wanted that wasn't a bad thing but it was for her good because I knew something that she didn't know and so if we serve an infinite transcendent God

who knows everything into eternity's past and we're finite we limited But you have to understand that sometimes a good God is going to withhold good things from us so that we can receive more of him at times. Like, you know, and so it's hard, but it's the truth. What I'm impressed about, thank you for that, because it made me think about my son who's five. What I'm most impressed about my son is that even when I do something that he doesn't like, I tell him no, he still comes to me with his tears. That's good. That's great.

He's still. And I know at some point when he turns a teenager, something, he's not going to do that. Yeah. Because it's going to be disciplined out of him or something's going to change in his head. But in his mind, I'm still the best person. But that's why the God tells us to be like a child. That is the beauty of a child.

Because even though you took something that I call good, I still trust you more. I trust you more than the thing that I wanted. And so I'm still going to come to you for comfort in that disappointment. Because he don't trust nobody else to give him comfort except. It's me. It's going to come for me. And the older he gets, the more aware he is. he'll find comfort in other sources.

And that's like us. Okay. You know what I'm saying? I know exactly what you're saying. It's like the more we grow up, the less we trust him to also like. Yeah, I passed it just preached on that. About the other comforts? I can't say my sentence as well.

I hope y'all are okay with that. We get you, girl. You still deep. All right. When the disciples was arguing about, you know, who's going to be the greatest in the kingdom, once Jesus left. And he gets a child and he says, you know,

like whoever's going to be greatest in my kingdom must be like this child. Okay. How this child is independent on his father. How this child doesn't worry about status. How this child is not worried about fixated on, you know,

all the things that he wants. It's solely dependent on his parents. And so we have to be dependent on our parents. Even when we don't get the things that we want, we still run to them because we trust them more. And I wonder what would have

happened if Eve had done that. I wonder like and honestly. Like Lord, I'm confused. He's saying this. But you said. I don't, and you ain't say. Like you don't know why I want the tree? Look at it. Look at it. Beautiful. It got colors that the other

ones don't have. I'm befuddled. I just wonder what stopped her or him because Adam was there too. I wonder what stopped her from asking Adam like you hear what did they say? Yeah. You hear what the serpent just said? What are he talking about? Yeah.

Community. Community. Yeah. Like I just, I wonder what that is in us as humans. That just makes us choose different. Yeah. At some point. Yeah.

We choose different. Not to pivot. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, we can pivot. When you read the songs, too. There's a lot of sadness in there.

Yes, a third of them. A third is lament. Why are our worship? Like, why don't, I'm not even going to say our, because it's actually a particular genre. But why do you think that the majority of songs that are saying in congregations not mirror, their actual songs? I think this is also layered. But I think part of it is like a seeker-friendly, it kind of aligns with a secret-friendly movement.

Because we're trying to convince people, come. And so the way you convince people is with sugar, not with something bitter. And so if you look at the charts, the CCL charts top 100, it's going to be very few. I won't say none, but very few songs that actually talk about that third in the Psalms that talks about, this is really, really bad. Psalms 88 is one of the chapters that don't even end. And no hope. He's like, darkness has been my only friend.

And that's it. That's it. That's it. Where's that song? And the thing is, those songs exist. Wow. They exist. And even me as a worship pastor, I know I can do better.

But I try my best, at least on a quarterly basis, to insert one of them songs. There's a song by Porter's Gate that says, How long will you turn your face away? How long do you hear us when we pray? On and on, still we walk this pilgrim way. How long? Then he says, till you wipe away the tear from every, eye till we see our home descending from the sky do we wait in vain Jesus give us hope again that's scripture

that's not something that they just wrote because they wanted to complain that's literally the words of scripture yeah that's good and it's gutsy to sing that when you got 500 people and in a sanctuary but that's what people need to hear because that's where half of them if not more are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And praise the Lord is great, but that's not where half of them, if not more of them are. It's the way you did the scale for me. It was the way you just... I'm just saying if we're here to serve the people. I'm just saying if we're here to serve the people and truly disciple them, we have to give them a more balanced meal. That's my argument. I'm not saying don't do the other. Like, that's my jam. You know what I just saw in my mind? I have so many questions. I just saw in my mind like

like the neglect of somebody who might be experienced in the grief of a funeral and the church just wants to do like the celebration of a wedding. Yes. Whoa. Yes. And so like there, there's people there that are, that are. It's disorienting. Yeah.

Yeah. Right? And so it's like I just, I just saw this, like this, I just saw this picture of like this, all this praise or whatever and like this, this one person there just really grieving and really cannot enter into this experience and how they're being neglected because we won't sing songs like that. And the Bible tells us that grief is a good thing. Yes, it does. James James four, I believe. Yes. Right. Yeah. Like that grieving, like when grief comes out, it literally makes room for life to come in. And people don't grieve properly, sometimes even in

church. Oh, no. And that's where we should be doing it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's what I thought about. I was like, man, like, how many people are we neglect? just trying to be in this, on this mountain top in every single worship service. No, I just love the picture you just painted. I'm sorry. I'm still stuck. The wedding verse in the funeral. Yeah. That's excellent. Y'all are both poets. I just think that is so cool that y'all talk in these illustrations. It's amazing. Yeah, because everybody's not there. No. And are they worth it? My thing is, I don't even think it's one, but let's just say there's one out of a hundred

that's in the funeral experience in their life. Are they worth it? Yeah. Can we be hospitable to them? Can we show them the love of Christ that even though I'm at a wedding internally and seasonally, I can be at a funeral for you. Like, that's love, though. Not only that. I have one more. Of course.

When I was younger, one of my cousins who loves to emcee every family of functioned, he got up. And he was trying to make people move past that grief with like jokes and stuff. And my auntie, my aunt Martha, she went to be with the Lord. She had to pull them to the side and be like, no, grieving is a good thing. And I think that what if we understood that in the church? Like grieving is an actual good thing. Create space for people to actually grieve and lament proper. But where are the Marthus?

That's my argument. Because it's not just about the songs. It's about the theology. We need a theology of suffering. We need the Aunt Martha's to pull me aside. Whomever. I don't care who it is. Okay, all right.

We sang praise every Sunday for the past six weeks. It's time. Yeah, that's good. That's good. What's you going to say that? I was just thinking about, I think when you're a leader in any capacity, whatever it is that you share and put before the people, you have to kind of experience it, right?

And so I can see some people who lead worship not wanting to sing those songs because they're sad too. Wow. Right? That's actually a really good. If I sing it, I have to deal with pain. Because as a preacher, when you teach a text, you got to deal with what the text is provoking in you

way before you even get to the people. So I guess I want to know how you've processed that. Like how can you lead people to a hard place? Because that means that you also have to go to a hard place for it to be authentic. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah. I think you have to experience the freedom and the beauty of it first, the beauty of leaning into the hard place.

And I would credit my husband for that. So B.O. is not in any way extroverted or performance driven. He is behind the scenes type of guy and basically not even behind the scenes. He's at home. Okay. He's gone through quite a bit of trauma in his life and he'll tell his own testimony. But me walking alongside him and seeing what God has done with him leaning into the hurting and taking it to Jesus and realizing that Jesus is crying at the tomb too with. him and then being resurrected out of that. Like when you see that and I mean firsthand see it. Like the only way it could be closer is if it was me. But I saw that, then I want that for other people. That's great. So I'm going to press into whatever sadness I can tap into. I'm pressing into it not just for my own sake, before the freedom of other people. That's good. But it made me think about it is how many people in church congregations and worship services every Sunday who actually do the opposite, who are actually sad, but they're forcing this fake joy.

Yeah. It doesn't last. You know, like, I'm pretty sure a lot of it is the opposite. And so we need to balance both. And sometimes, truth be told, sometimes you do have to practice joy. Yes. Okay. Sometimes you got to sing the song that doesn't resonate until it resonates.

Yeah, yeah. You got to see it before you see it. But that's by faith. Yeah. So, like, you're singing this in faith. I'm not happy now, but I will be. And I feel like the order matters, Jackie. I feel like first acknowledge where you are.

That's good. Then speak in faith. We do the second, the latter. We ignore. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. We've overcorrected to some degree.

Maybe it's an overcorrection if we ever had it right. But we're doing sometimes what you're saying without first acknowledging this is in faith God because I'm actually terribly terrified. That's really good, Sarah. You got to first call it. That's good. That's good. what it is. And then pray, but not first. Yeah. I wish I could sing like you, because you just did it so normal.

She just kept doing it. She just kept doing it so well. I'm just, I'm so happy that y'all are having this conversation. It's such a gift. Yeah. To be just be given the full truth and not just part of it. I don't think I've ever had a conversation like this before. No. It made my mind go. Yeah. That makes me so happy. Yeah. She'll do it for you got my mind going. I'm going to be like, I'm going to lament tonight.

Yeah. No, you should. On the calendar. You should. But no, it is necessary. I remember when I was studying. Well, we lamented this past weekend. I've been lamenting for years.

I want to know more about that way. You just can't just say that and me not ask. We'll probably talk about it when we're ready. God met us. But I think personally people know that depression is an occasional thing for me. And so I'm always having to wrestle with hard feelings. But I was studying, I think it's 2nd Corinthians forward. He says we have this treasure in jars of clay

to show this surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. Da-da-da-da-da. And I'm like, man, the Lord is just using, like he's, so many of our situations and circumstances are just reminding us that we're jars of clay. But it's in that place that you actually experience God. You know what I'm saying?

And I think creating space for lament and set, let me just say that. Like a month ago, I felt away about the Lord. And I told him. I'm mad at you. Yeah. Because you, I've been praying for this for a decade and you haven't moved. You know what I'm saying?

And it was like, but me being honest with him, did he corrected my own perspective on why I was mad? And then it's just like, oh, like, I don't know. It's just what I'm basically trying to say is that you don't have to be afraid of hard stuff. That's what I'm saying. You don't have to be afraid of difficult and ugly and weird and awkward in what can look like a reverent emotion. Like that stuff is what creates an authentic relationship. And me and Preston was just happy all the time. Y'all should be scared because that's not a real relationship.

Right. Something is off here. They are performing. They are hiding. This is not oneness. And so I don't know. That's good. I don't think I was prepared to leave with what Preston said earlier.

And it's to your point, Jackie, that the fall made it hard to be human. I am never going to forget that. Yeah. I am, because human is good. Like, I think because of the fall, human became like this icky thing. Like, I often try to untether flesh and the body. I try to untether that. Because as you're reading the scripture, flesh is like our desires that go against God.

But the body, the body is sacred. And what you said is true. Like, the fall made us look at the body like all it is, is flesh. When really God made us good to be dependent. on each other, but also on him to work hard and to live within his boundaries. What are some books you would recommend for people to continue this conversation? I love Kirk Thompson's. Oh, yeah.

I love him, period. Oh, yeah. I love the book that you gave me. I haven't finished it. Human limitation. The Dark Night of the Soul. I also love the Psalms. And I don't just say that to sound super spiritual.

But I often tell my worship team, start from the beginning, start in Genesis, and force yourself to keep reading. Because you will see this whole story that we've been talking about. You will see the human condition and how our greats, our giants, dealt with it. Yeah. And you'll get this because most of this didn't come out of me reading those books. I started reading those books after I got kind of bit by it through the scripture. That's great. What is all in the scripture?

So read your Bible. I say start there and then allow these other great minds to give you more, more modern context. That's good. Well, thank you for coming, Sarah. You left your babies and your husband and your bed and your couch and your kitchen. You know, stuff like that is a sacrifice. I definitely appreciate this conversation. Thank you, Preston.

Got my juice flowing. Yes. My work is done. All right. All right, y'all. Peace. Bye. Bye.

With the Perry's is produced by The Perrys With support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley Edited by the team at Tread lively Artwork by Hop and Music by Swoop Thank you for listening Now go with God