With The Perrys - The Inhumanity of Celebrity

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

The phenomenon of celebrity is quite…strange. Jackie talks about the pressure of maintaining a facade when notoriety places her in uncomfortable situations, and Preston advocates for a “hierarchy of opinions” to keep us all from becoming puppets. We also explore how celebrity culture affects the local church and its leaders. Previous Episode Reference: Fame: Christian Celebrity Culture (Season 3: Episode 5) Book Reference: Illusions of Immortality: A Psychology of Fame and Celebrity by David Giles  Book Reference: The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis Book Reference: When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat Podcast Reference: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill by Christianity Today Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Saints and names. What up with y'all? What up with y'all? Preston, have you ever woke up with an attitude? Uh, no, I don't typically have that problem. I wake up. I'm tired. I woke up with an attitude.

Why did you wake up with attitude? I just had one. I don't know. It's still here. Let's talk about it. What is it? So what happens when you wake up with an attitude? You just like, you wake up and it's like, you don't like the way the sun's shining, I don't like the way it smells.

It's just there. I think the attitude would go. away if I wasn't obligated to do things that forced me to not live inside of my attitude. Wow. That's so fascinating to me. You know, and so I think if I was just by myself and I didn't have to talk or record a podcast and do makeup and put on a hat, then I would be fine. I would be totally fine.

But it's the fact that, like, I have to, like, force myself out of it. That, you know why. And it's not even an attitude. It's just, I just, I just wanted to be quiet. I just really wanted to be quiet. but I can't be. You don't, you know what? What's crazy?

Even in your confession of this, it just reminds me. Confession. Of why I, like, love you. I mean, I felt like we might as well talk about it. Because if we don't, I'm going to this whole situation, real malacology. It's going to be on here like, why she's so dry. It's like, because she has an attitude. Because you're so honest, but I will say this, your face is beat.

Appreciate it. So, anyway, today's topic. We've talked about celebrity before and fame before, but we wanted to talk about it, not necessarily from a different angle, but just from a wider lens. Celebrity is something that I am very intrigued by. That I'm always reading about or listening to podcasts

or watching documentaries about it and all the things. And recently, I feel like I have these epiphanies after big conferences. Yeah. And so we both went to the gospel. Coalition Conference in June. And it was maybe 9,000 women, something like that. And the way gospel coalition is set up, you don't really have the ability to not walk

through everybody, which is fine for me five years ago. Now, at this point in my life, it just becomes upheaval. And so, like, it just was, you know, just nonstop pictures. and nonstop questions, and this isn't to brag, it's to set up the platform for why I'm talking about this. And it was just so stressful. I'm getting there. And so at one point, I think it was the third day,

and we were in an elevator, and it was a packed elevator or whatever. And this lady turned around to me, and she was like, you know, I'm going to take a picture right. And so I was like, okay. And so she pulled out her phone and took a picture. And then I was with Jasmine Holmes and her friend, and her friend was so offended.

And so we were at the dinner table. How dare she? No, she was like, it's like, she was like, how can she just decide to take a picture with you and not ask you to take a picture with you? And I realized, oh, I'm just so used to people kind of forcing themselves into my space and me having to say yes or having to oblige. And so when I got home, I was like, why do I feel the way I feel? And the reason I felt the way I felt is that being in that conference center for three days,

being pulled on and cameras in my face and all the things. I'm not Justin Bieber, so I'm not trying to make it seem like I'm bigger than I am. But what I'm saying is I felt objectified, which made me want to have a discussion about how being platformed or having some kind of ministry that's public, how it's just not normal, natural, or human for people to be. I love this conversation because I think the first time. we touched on fame. I think one of the things that we talked about was it was more self-reflecting.

It was more so what can the famous person do to avoid pride and stuff like that. But I think this conversation is so important because I think that it, not to, you know, cast blame on other people, but it is to say, man, we don't really treat popular people like humans. But it's not, I don't know. I guess I don't want to even. land that quickly on what we do wrong. Okay. But more so how the way fame and celebrity and popularity, even the way it exists kind of forces

us into that. Because for example, if the main way you consume an individual is on a device, that's not natural, right? I remember when we, when Brian would tell us, people will only treat you like a celebrity, the more distant you are from them. Yes. And so the more you do life, the more they sit in your living room, the more they sit in your space.

What happens? They humanize you. Yeah. And so naturally, I guess it's easier to objectify an individual that you don't actually do life with. You see him on a device. That's a really good point because I thank God for Brian because he did do a good job of when he had popular people,

you know, in his church, popular Christians in his church. he was saying no like like make yourself known to people you know what I'm saying and he was like don't just cut out after service you know what I'm saying be normal you know I mean because if people have this this temptation not to treat you normal yeah I feel like a lot of that will be gone like let me ask you this what do you think calls like celebrity celebrityism if yeah what do you think caused it so when I left TGC I found this book that was really written in the early 2000s called the illusions of immortality. And he uses immortality because he speaks about celebrity and fame as a way to be immortal.

Because everything that you create will exist beyond you. And so it's as if you have the ability to live forever on earth. And so that was real deep. But that's basically what the book is about. It's really deep. And he talks about how fame has always existed. You know, you have Julius Caesar. You have Jesus.

You have Moses. You have Paul. You have, you know, the kings. Like fame has always been a thing. Celebrity is a contemporary phenomenon that started when people were able to be, like when when TV started, not even radio. Because when radio was popping, you know, it's like I'm listening to a voice. And so I can only recognize you if I'm in proximity to you and hear your voice. And even then it's not as like solid. if it is you or not. But when TV started, something happened when we had the ability to see a face speak to us and see their eyes and see their eyebrows

and memorize their mannerisms and connect to them in a way that was distinctly different. And that is when the phenomenon of celebrity started. Yeah. Yeah. What's crazy is, I think,

that's so deep because it's like, basically what you're trying to say is the moment we were able to make a, like a facial recognition of somebody, we begin to like think that we knew them more. Because you not only recognize them, it's the recognition, but it's also the connection.

He calls it parasycial relationships, where you basically build a relationship with a person via a movie or a television show or now YouTube that you don't actually know. And so it's a relationship that has all of your time and none of your actual investment. Yeah, that's deep. What's crazy is I don't know if I even told you this story, but I want to say during the height of the pandemic, like, it might have been like the end of 2020.

This guy, he, he, he, he DM me and he said something that I was very offended by, and I just immediately blocked him. And what was great. I thought this was going to be lighter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what was crazy was, like, I had recognized. the guy you know previously because he's always right me and it was always respectful and he de-m me again from another page I think it's a photography page and he was like yo Preston I'm realizing I'm blocked on your page yada yada yada

what did I do and I was like why did I why was I so offended and so I went back and looked at his message and I unblocked and looked at his message and I realized that like what he said to me it wasn't necessarily I don't think he was trying to be malicious but I think that he went that he asked me a question that I felt like only somebody in close proximity had the right to ask me and what was that uh it was a question I don't even want to repeat it because it was like it was a very personal question but I was like man like I think that's what celebrityism does and it gives people and this is not even to to to booble on him because he didn't do anything wrong right you know I I I I

I think for me, it was like, man, like it felt like somebody was trying to be a part of a world that I didn't invite them into. Interesting. And so, yeah, I don't know. What you're just saying that, you know, it made me think about that. And I don't even know, like, what's the healthy balance of celebrityism? You know what I'm saying? I unblocked the guy and I apologize to him. Oh, that's good.

And I explained to him. You had to add that. Yeah, and then he was like, yo, I shouldn't ask you that question. I feel like I know you, you know what I'm saying? And I feel like I could have asked you that question. And that's what I was going to say, because you have some people who have platforms that the only way you are able to interact with them is through their gifts, primarily. And I'm going to explain that.

So you might have somebody who is a Christian rapper. And all that they post is their videos, their album covers, their comments, concerts and so you're able to you know deal with them or interact with them creatively but you don't really know them yeah the difference between me and you is that we set ourselves up for that kind of interaction because we've divulged so much of our life like people know our children they know when they were born they know that we uh you know how the lord dealt with us with a son they know our testimony like they know so much and so we've actually created an environment where people do feel like they know us and to a certain degree they do so it's our fault yeah we did this absolutely which is a whole other thing related to the

celebrity culture of transparency because there also is a authenticity that people are drawn to and attracted to to the point that people will be transparent just to be famous when it's not even real That's real. So when you think of like a Kim Kardashian, Kim is popping because of a sex tape. The most vulnerable and intimate part of her is the thing that made her famous. And that is the reason why we know her. And so in the same way, Christians,

we don't go as far to show our married lies, but we tell a lot of our business. And so to me, I've found it like I need to be more wise and much more of a steward and create boundaries between myself and the people that follow me. That's good. And it has to be a healthy balance. I think for people like me and you who are typically just very honest people, it can, like,

I remember us talking about, like, just doing podcasts in the future and just saying, let's not even talk about this topic because we're going to have the temptation. We're going to say too much. Do you know what I'm saying? We're going to say too much. To say too much. And so, yeah, it's a difficult thing. And also, too, the way the social media is just set up.

Social media is set up to connect us in this. Superficial? superficial way. You know what I'm saying? So like we feel way more connected to people than we actually are. And I'm guilty of that. You know what I'm saying? Oh, for sure.

Because I like I low-key be feeling like me and LeBron James's friends. Like I'd be feeling like that. I'd be feeling like he is my homie. And I'd be like, you know, I remember the first time I went to a conference with a person that I followed and they had a son. And I remember when I saw their son, I literally wanted to pick this little boy up because I thought it felt like I knew him. But then he looked at me like, you're a stranger. Like, I didn't try to pick him up.

But it was like this look on his face that was blank. Like, I don't know you. And it kind of snapped me out of it like, oh. Yeah, it reminds me. I don't know this little boy. It reminds me of eating when people say her name in public. Yeah, it happens a lot. How do you know me?

Which is a whole other thing. She's like, how do you know me? She's so, she's so sweet. Yeah, it's made me, I haven't posted her. as much as I used to for that reason. Yeah. Because I just don't know how to feel. But either way.

Anyway, I think another interesting aspect of celebrity is the commodification of people. Huh. And so what happens is if you're a celebrity, you most likely are associated with some kind of brand. Yeah. That could be, you could publish books. You could make records. You can, I don't know. All kinds of things.

stuff you can sell rugs i know christian you know christian designers that like is popping off of these like lulroy rugs and stuff and so it's like you kind of become associated with wealth yeah or the the ability to build it what how do you think that does to a person's psyche when they only are as useful as the value that they bring a business man that's a good question i i think I don't even know how to answer that question, you know, like, because I'll say this. I think it's dangerous. Yeah. I think it's dangerous to, especially for a Christian, I'm not going to talk, I'm not going to

speak for the world, but I think for a Christian to look at their celebrity and to figure out like how can I always maximize on my celebrity to make a paycheck, I think then you're going to have to sacrifice some authenticity. somewhat down the line because I think that I think I don't know if it was you or somebody else that says all of our gifts doesn't have to be monetized I said that yeah you said that thank you and it's so yeah it was really good great quote and for myself yeah yeah and I think we we run the risk because it's like it's such a temptation yeah to say man I have because because basically what social media does it creates followers and followers are automatically going to be looked at is revenue if you know how to do it

Yeah. And so if I have these amount of followers, if I put this out there, statistics say I can have this amount of money. Right. And so if you're not consistently checking your heart and saying, man, like, I don't want to use this celebrity all the time to promote a brand or to promote this and promote that. Because then I think that you run the risk of having your heart fall into some, to some, you know, some snares that you probably can't get yourself out of.

But on the flip side, I do think that it's nothing wrong with, you know, having, you know, clothing, you have a clothing line and stuff like that, like to support your family and to, you know, take care of your children. I just think that don't, what am I trying to say? Don't risk it at the, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, just don't sacrifice authenticity to, to promote whatever you're promoting. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, I think, I think what can happen. and does happen to all of us. And you don't even have to be a celebrity or famous in the sense of having hundreds and millions of thousands of followers. People are famous in church just because they can sing good. Yeah. Right? Like in your local church, you are the person.

Or you're the pastor or the deacon or you're married to the drummer who will be killing it. Like, you know, like visible gifts that are exalted and platforms. I think have this same tension. And I think what can happen when your gifting is always utilized for wealth or brand management is that you start to attach your value to what you do and what you produce rather than who you were made by. And I think that's the difficulty is that if my value is only contingent on what I'm able to do, then I always have to do something to feel worthy. And that's just not a really happy, joyful, awesome, loving place to be.

Yeah, that's true. That's what makes you bitter. Because it's just like, especially, because people aren't going to be even, they can't even treat you good all the time. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So if I have to do to feel loved, then when I don't feel loved because I didn't do it right or well or good enough or often enough, now I feel like whack and lame and

that's just not cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, yeah, we live in a dangerous place. we look for strangers to validate who we are? I mean, yeah. That's our life.

Yeah. And so, man. In the book, he has this quote where he talks about commodifying people. And he says, eventually this commodification does have a crucial impact on the celebrity's sense of self. As the above quote demonstrates, celebrities feel that the myth infects all their social interaction, not just their dealings with the media, but friends and family as well. There are many instances of famous people referring to themselves in the third person. An even more spectacular way of dealing with the sense of commodification.

It's a lot of words. And even more spectacular way of dealing with the sense of commodification is actively to create alternative cells for different contexts. Does it make sense? Yeah, the whole third person thing is very funny. Yeah, it's like you, because if I am, like, if my personhood is contingent on what I do, then it's kind of like I have to play a role to make you happy at all times. I can't be my true self because my true self is not as impressive, not as clever,

not as good with words as I am. You get what I'm saying? Like our true selves are vulnerable and weak and tired and all the things. So they have to kind of detach. And I think if anybody does this, is people in the Christian faith that are gifted. Yeah, yeah. Is that we become two different people. Because I think that we really can't escape it.

You know, the whole celebrity thing, especially with social media, especially with gifted people, the more gifted you are. You can't escape it. Well, you can't escape it if you choose not to, but if you feel like called to do a particular thing and you're on social media, your following kind of will grow, you know. And so I think that just being authentic to yourself and not trying to be this version of yourself.

There might be a true version, but that's not all who you are for people. I think when you go into spaces, you just eliminate so much pressure off of yourself to be able to go into space and say, man, even though, you know, like people expect me to be a particular way, I still can be my authentic self and I don't have to, yeah, what I'm basically trying to say

is you don't have to exhaust yourself trying to keep up a facade if you're just yourself from the beginning. You don't have to, but I often feel like I have to. Why do you feel like you have to? So I told you at TGC, I'm going to keep using that as an example, is that you, after the people kept coming up to me and stuff like that, and I felt, or I looked tired or worn, and you were like, why does it take so much out of you? And I was like, because I feel like I have to perform.

Yeah. Like, I feel like I have to, oh, hey, how are you? Are you good? Like, I have to be overly. I get what you're saying. I have to be overly kind or overly attentive and overly when I am extremely laid back. And I know that the way I naturally am will be perceived as not being kind or loving or or I feel like it won't be good enough to make them feel good. I get what you're saying.

It's kind of different than what I was saying. And I do get that. I think for you, I think because you're tired and you have people who want to take a picture with you and want to, you know, talk to you or whatever you feel this pressure of, man, making sure I don't look mad or look like I don't, you know. Yeah, I don't want them to walk away and say, oh, she just was so uninterested. When it's like, I can be interested, I'm just not going to be smiling, but I got to do all this extra stuff to make you happy. But I think that's slightly different than you putting on a smile when. you don't feel like it, then you feeling like I have to come into a room like, hey, Sainte's and eight?

No, but at the same time, I think that's different. But I think what the author is saying, I don't think he's being exaggerative. I think what he is saying is that you do become duplicitous. Like you do because I'm still not being myself. That's true. I'm still having to put on a false self to make you happy with me, which is exhausting. Let me ask you a question, though. Do you think that some of that is healthy to be able to do that?

at times to stretch yourself to say, man, I'm going to smile because I think pastors go through it. I think we go through it with our children, of making sure, you know, we put on a smile and, you know, to, and so I do think that there is a balance and that being good for us. I do think that it is healthy, especially with a personality type like mine. And so it reminds me of, I think it's Colossians where he says, put on compassion. Yeah. Put on love suffering.

Like you do have to put on clothing that isn't in your closet. Yeah. But I think the tension for me is like in me putting on compassion, what if my compassion doesn't look like the compassion that makes everybody applaud, right? Like what if putting on kindness isn't niceness? Like you want me to be nice when niceness isn't a fruit of the spirit, kindness is. And so even me getting up and looking you in the face and saying, what's up?

Are you good? Like even me saying, are you good? Super matter of factally isn't good enough. So are you good? Like I got to put inflections in the thing. And so it's just, I think I am wrestling with how can I really be myself? Yeah. While at the same time dealing with the fact that myself is not always going to be good

enough for everybody. And that's so true. It's not always going to be good enough for everybody. And that's absolutely okay. Right. Because I think that God. God doesn't put this type of pressure on us that humans put on us. You're correct.

That's just the reality of it. And especially if you have a platform, the more people follow you, the more opinions you're going to have. And so, like, you can't, like, it's, like, at the end of the day, and that's the reason why I stress so much. I've said it on reals. I've said it on podcasts, that the Christian has to desperately cling to a local body and a local community. because I do think that what people think about us, it has to be a priority. It has to be God. It has to be my family.

It has to be my local community. And then it has to be everybody else. The closer proximity that you have to me, the more your opinion should matter. And if anybody disagree with me, fight me. Because that's just what I think. I'm not going to take somebody's opinion of me who just met me five minutes ago more than I'm going to take somebody who actually lives and does life with me in my local community. And so I think that, you know, it's just something that, you know, people like me or,

it's a lot of other people, like, have to bear. Like, we just have to accept the fact that, yeah, people are going to formulate opinions about you. But at the end of the day, like, I think that opinions does have a hierarchy. You know what I said when it comes to your personhood. And so that's just my opinion. Yeah, it's also interesting to me. because it's such a unique thing.

And I think I want to bring up how I've thought about, you know, I always bring up Genesis 3, this in relation to not only even Genesis 3, but New Jerusalem. Yeah. And how I think fame is what it is because it's kind of rooted in favoritism. It is. At the end of the day. It's, you know, you do this or you have this.

It's value. And so I give more of my time and attention and describe more, you know, compliments and praise to you rather than the person whose gift is, you know, Excel sheets. And so it's like, that's just a, that's just a thing that I don't think would have existed pre-fall. Now, does that mean that, like, there wasn't a diversity of giftings? I think there was, but I think there would have been an equality of praise for him. And so I think sin is.

what kind of made us just kind of play favorites when it came to what gifts are worthy or more honor than the next. But in New Jerusalem, I imagine that the praise will again become spread about. Like in C.S. Lewis's book, The Great Divorce, there's this artist that comes to like the little purgatory moment where they can go to heaven or they can go back to hell. And the artist cannot fathom the idea that there isn't a special seat or a special seat or a special, you know, VIP for her when she gets to heaven. And the angel that's with her says, no, you are famous there, but everybody's famous here. Wow. And so like when we get to glory, Moses isn't more important than me or Rosa Parks isn't more important than you. Yeah. Or, you know,

King David isn't more. Like does that, does it, does it like, I'm sure they might have more jewels in their crown, but everybody is special. Yeah. Because everybody is made in the image of God. everybody is great everybody is worthy of something and so I think until we get there it's always going to be all over the place but when I see Paul I'm gonna be like man

I'm I imagine that the honor is going to be real but it just won't be like sinful yeah it won't be like stop talking to me I'm talking to Paul right now yeah yeah that's that's a very good perspective like imagine this imagine you talking to Paul And you're having a whole conversation with the apostle, like who wrote 13 epistles.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, but somebody from a local church in Yugoslavia comes over and says, hey, Preston, how are you? And your attention being diverted from Paul and you being fully invested in this person in the same way you were with Paul. Because that does not happen. No. Here. No.

At all. You have, but like a share love and compassion and interest in this person that you never met until this moment. I think that's heaven. That's dope. That's dope. I'm like, come on. Paul and the person that I never met comes to sit down and talk together. I'm interested in both of you guys.

That's what I'm saying. I think it would be special. That's really, really good. So my question I want to ask you, do you feel like it's necessary for people to be famous? Do you feel like it's a necessity? Do you feel like God uses it for its glory? Do you feel like it's even necessary? Or do you feel like we as humans and as creation, we kind of make it more than what it really has to be?

Necessary, no. Redemptive, yes. Explain. Break that down. I don't think there is a need. We don't need celebrity. The only famous person we need to know is God. Yes.

Period. For our salvation, for our hope, for our love, for our character, for our, like, all the things like God needs to be preeminent above everybody and he is. I think though even though fame might be a consequence of the fall I think God redeems

it for his glory because again like we said in the last podcast Jesus was famous Paul was famous Saul was famous Samuel was famous Moses was famous Miriam was famous she over here getting leprosy Aaron was like

it's people all throughout scripture who had a measure of fame and uh you know an attention brought to them i just think it's what you do with it because you can be a nebuchadnezzar who the fame can go to your head where you start to think that everything you've been given is yours yeah for you to exploit it and and and just think like to make yourself your own kind of little god or you can be like a a john the baptist who takes his celebrity to continue to point it back to god like There is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world. I know you see me, you hear me, go follow him, right?

And so his disciples that have been following him and listen to him, now they go follow Jesus. And so I think that's how we utilize it, is if God has somehow put us in a position to have a platform and some measure of celebrity, no matter how big or small, you can be in a church and everybody know your name. How you utilize it is really just a matter of character and perspective and discipline. I think you have to train yourself to say, I need to steward this influence that God is given me so that people know and love and serve God. And it's not, you know, love and serve me like I'm somebody special. Absolutely. I think John DeBaptist examples is such a great example. It's because a lot of people was confusing him as Jesus himself.

They were. And he was saying, you know, this is the Messiah. And he was like, no, I'm not even worthy enough to tight as man's sandals. And so, like, no, look to him. And so I think the fall did, you know, create a lot of chaos when it comes to just people being enthralled with who other people are. But I think what you're saying, which I think it's really good, is to do our best to take this attention and to divert it towards the one who deserves it all. So it's great. A small pivot that I feel like would be worthwhile is I kept telling you about the rise and fall of my.

Mars Hill, the podcast, done by Christianity Today. If you haven't listened to it, haven't watched it, well, it's not able to be watched. If you haven't listened to it, you should listen to it because it's just really well done. And I think what that podcast does and did for all of us is it showed how much celebrity culture is not only affecting the church, but it's affecting pastors. I guess what do you think like I guess what's your thoughts about how celebrity culture affects leadership in local churches oh man I opened it wide open so you can why you ask me this question you can go wherever you want so here's the thing I want to leave with this before I say this I have a heart for pastors I do I'm friends with pastors, you know, and I've seen both sides.

I've seen pastors who get corrupted by fame and celebrity, and I've seen pastors, low-key abused. And so I've seen pastors abuse others, and I've seen pastures get abused. And so, like, I have a heart for pastors or whatever. And so I want to just say that. So I want to leave with that because I don't want people to think, oh, he's moving on pastors.

I do think that when we read the letters that Paul wrote to his mentee in the faith Timothy, and he is encouraging Timothy to not let anybody despise him for his youth. And he's saying that the elders be all gathered together, and we noticed how you were ready for this particular ministry. And he warns them all of these downfalls and these pits that he can fall into. we see that, I don't know, when I read those letters, I see that it's such a great call that Paul is calling Timothy to, to care and to nurture the hearts of people. And so I think that when we have a leader that's in such a pivotal way, like being a cover over our soul, like God has entrusted, you to pass to this flock, I do think that we have to be careful as pastors to not let celebrity

suck us in and make us put on this, this act because so many people are watching us for spiritual guidance. So when I look at Paul and Timothy's relationship, I see that like Paul is, it's like warning this dude to like, man, like, like make sure you, you tend to this flock well and I do think that if we like get caught up like with trying to like be a particular way or be the celebrity I do think I'm not I'm not demonizing like celebrity like celebrity passes and saying all of them are wrong that's not what I'm saying but what I am saying is that you have to be careful of who's following you and what kind of message that you're sending to them and so like if if they see that their pastor is like this this this big time

you know celebrity who who's flaunting wealth all the time and like and like you know always being like on I think that you kind of send this message that maybe we should be that way as well and so I think that uh I don't know I just think there has to be a carefulness there I think it's so many things I think it's so many things because I mean on one end I do think that they're just probably it would probably be helpful to have better like mental health evaluations of pastors. And I say that because there's this book called When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGrope. Excellent book. And he says his job as a psychiatrist was to basically evaluate church planners. And he said over like the 20 years he's been doing this work like pretty much most church planners lean on the like narcissistic

scale. Doesn't mean that they have narcissistic personality disorder that you actually have to be diagnosed, but they're on the narcissism scale, which I think we all are. And he said he was talking to somebody about it. And they were like, why wouldn't pastors be on the narcissism scale who would want to position themselves to speak on behalf of God? Yeah. And it was just like, oh, that's interesting. How like you do have to have a certain competence and confidence to an authority. to take God's word and preach it to people. And obviously being a pastor is a calling, but it has a snare attached to it, which is ego.

You know, when you get up in that pulpit and you got people looking at you and believing what you have to say, like that's intoxicating. And so I think a part of the a part of the way anybody can protect themselves from that is being honest. Honestly. Just being honest with yourself, being honest with God, being honest with your community,

and in that honesty, taking time to hide. Because we said this again in the last podcast. It said when Jesus, when the fame of him grew, he would go to desolate places and pray. Like he was intentional on hiding himself at times. And so that's when your ministry and your person becomes a brink. You always feel like I got to produce. I got to put things out. But sometimes we just got to go somewhere and hide where we can just hear from the Lord and be okay with all our vulnerable weaknesses and humanity.

Yeah. And not even just pastes, but I think that. Everybody. Yeah, but particularly like people who speak, like in the Christian community, like speakers are exalted in such a way, you know, because not only do people, you know, admire those who speak well, but you also are put it in the position of authority. And so people look to you for guidance. And so they look up to you. They look at the way you speak or whatever. And so I think that like, yeah, like we can fall into like this, this, this,

this mode of like, like, like not necessarily always trying to be on, but like, yeah, we can, we can fall into this mode of like, like, like, always trying to appear like we're higher and have more authority than other people. And it's like, no, like when Jesus, like you said, when this fan grew, he withdrew from the crowds and he sought his father. And we can't really, you know, determine, like, who's doing that and who's not. You know what I'm saying? That's not always, you know what I mean?

That's their community shop. Yeah, that's their community shop. And so, like, I don't think that we should look at people on social media and be like, oh, he's doing it and he's not because there's no way to determine that. I'm going to tell you this, though. I know for me, I'm always remembering that Jesus is, like, apart from me, you can do nothing. And I remember Melody Fabian, who's one of my mentors, she told me once, what did she say?

She said something like when you stop leaning into and abiding in and spending time with Jesus, you'll have a cap on what you're able to put out, meaning you might communicate some good stuff. Yeah. You might say some like really helpful, like God-oriented things, but it will not. be as powerful, as effective, and as anointed as it would be if it was coming out of you spending time with the Lord consistently. And so I just always have to remember, like, apart from the Lord and Jesus, we really can't do nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. And also, I think the more, the less that we're impressed with Jesus, you know, the more people being impressed by our ministry

will potentially destroy us. Oh, facts. Like the more we're impressed with God, I think people coming along and saying, like, you're great, won't go to your head as much because you're consistently gleaming on the one who's great, who's greater, who's giving you all of these gifts and talents in the first place.

And so I just think that's important to always have a community that can point you back to God. And that's the reason why I love Brian. Like when I came back from tour every week, every Monday he did a heart check with me. It's like if you ain't loving your wife, if you ain't serving your community, yeah, we're not impressed with you here.

You know, and so... You got more to say? Nope. All right, peace. 30 Minutes with the Perry's is a production of Ivy Media podcast, edited by Angie Elkins, video recording and audio production by Kim Powell,

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