With The Perrys - The Lie Shame Tells Us

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

A stronghold is an untruth that has lodged itself in our brains and keeps out the knowledge of God. Shame can be a stronghold if we are believing something that is literally not the truth – about God, ourselves, or others. So really, shame and the gospel can’t co-exist peacefully. You could even say that shame is anti-gospel.  Jackie and Preston discuss how the gospel – the good news that we are forgiven – exposes lies and replaces them with the truth we find in God’s word. We’ve got to meditate on the gospel, read the Bible more than we think about ourselves, and be aware of the way we are helping to remove (or unconsciously adding to) shame in other people’s lives.  Scripture References: Genesis 3:7 Hebrews 12:2 "The Soul of Shame: Retelling the Stories We Believe About Ourselves" by Curt Thompson: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0830844333/ Video from Dan Allender, "The Fall" – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNLFNIfHqLE This Episode is Sponsored By: Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. Available at Amazon - https://nelsonbooks.co/Amazon, Christian Book - https://nelsonbooks.co/ChristianBook, and B&N - https://nelsonbooks.co/BN https://fieldofgreens.com — Get 20% off with promo code PERRY https://meetfabric.com/perry — Help protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. You could be offered coverage instantly with NO health exam required! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What up with y'all? How are you? How am I? I don't feel no shame. I just wasted water on my, on my sweater. That's what you're looking? You looked at me like I was a dirty boy. Honestly, I think that's really ironic because you felt shame, didn't you?

Huh, no, I didn't feel shame. You should. Wow. Because I got a watermark? It just looked like dirt. It looked like you put on a dirty, no, this is water. I just, you know, I've been smy. lip. I missed the bottom lip.

And so when I missed the bottom lip, water, like by the end of this episode, it might be... Okay. No shame. No shame. Okay. Preston said last night that we should talk about shame, and here we are.

Shame on you for saying I was dirty. I didn't say you were dirty. I said it gave. It gave that you just put on anything and got on, but you didn't. So that's my fault for shaming you. I accept your apology. Okay. Just don't let it happen again.

Now, anyway, we, this ain't, this ain't going to be super technical, theological, psychological, shame is a really, really, really big topic. Yeah. That can go a lot of directions. If y'all want something super deep, go on to Kurt Thompson, going to Dan Allender, go on to Bray Brown, if you got to. You say that, then you're going to say, like, nine deep things.

I'm just saying if they want, like, all the things, like a therapist with community. this ain't it. We are just lollygagging about shame. And so I'm just saying you're going to be real disappointed if you think I'm going to be like Dan Allen or I'm not going to I don't do all that. Because even when

I studied shame for the paper I wrote about false teachers I realized how deep it was and how there's a lot of different angles that can be taken because you got a psychological approach to shame that you know you got a theological approach to shame and they overlap but they

also are different and distinct. And so I think I realize when there are subjects that are big, I don't want to presume to know all the things or communicate all the things accurately. I can only communicate from my little small. I want to say myopic, but I don't know if that's the right word. My small experience. I think the reality is when you think about shame

and if you thought about it for a number of years, you realize that it affects so many different things. It intertwines with so many different things. belief systems. It affects how you show up in so many different relationships. How you affect, like, it just, it just affects, so it's, you're right when you say, like, it's so many different angles that we can take as it relates to shame. I want to read just the first Webster definition of shame that I googled. Shame is an intensely painful emotion caused by the consciousness of guilt. Shortcomings.

or feeling like you haven't, you know, measured up. It is closely tied to a negative evaluation of yourself, often involving the belief system that your actions or flaws make you unworthy of respect, love, or belonging. And that's deep. Because when you think about that definition and then you think about the gospel and all that the gospel is, you start to just figure out like,

Yeah, you start to just see like how shame and the gospel just cannot coexist with one another peacefully. When you think about the gospel, because it's like, man, like, like unworthy of love, respect, belonging. Those are all the things that the gospel came to give us. And if shame invokes those emotions, it is literally anti-gospels. And so I guess my question to you is can you talk about? about all the ways in which you've seen shame, not just show up in your life, but see shame getting away of the gospel and all the things. I think it's wise to talk about the entry of shame.

Let's talk about the entry of shame then. Yeah, because I mean, in Genesis 1 and 2, God makes Adam and Eve, and it says that they were naked and unashamed. And so for Scripture to say that, it's communicating something significant, you know, because I think we understand that nakedness is exposure. It's vulnerable. It's like this sense in which they saw each other as they were, but there was no shame.

There was no fear. There was no judgment. There was no accusation. There was no insecurity. And so their nakedness is even bigger than their bodies. It's their soul. They are fully known and fully loved until, the devil comes.

And the devil comes, lies to these people. They eat the fruit. And then the Bible says, let me read it. So you don't think I'm making things up. Like some of these other people, we do. Genesis 3, verse 7. Then the eyes of both are open, and they knew that they were naked, and they sowed fig leaves together and made themselves loin claws.

What's happening there? They are no longer naked and unashamed. Now they are naked and ashamed. And to cover, cover, cover their shame, they do not turn to the Lord for covering. They turn to themselves for covering and find some fig leaves, which are insufficient source of covering and clothing, to cover the nakedness or whatever. And so when I was studying shame to study the whole false teacher thing, it was just deep to see that shame and pride all came through the same source, which is sin. It's sin. And so I think what we are all always dealing with is some type of shame because we know ourselves enough to know that we don't want to be seen fully because we don't believe that we will be loved fully. You know what I'm saying. And that's, I think at the core, that's what shame communicates is if people really saw you, they would not love you. Yeah, they would not love you. And also, it can also communicate that, like, you don't deserve God's love.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, I believe, I can only speak for myself. I believe that I'm loved by others when I truly believe that I'm loved by the Lord. And so sometimes I have convinced myself that I don't deserve the Lord's love and his acceptance. And that's deep. It's deep that the first thing that they fought to do was to cover themselves. That's very deep to me. It's a big deal. Yeah, like, and I'm wondering, oftentimes when I read about Adam and Eve, I try to put myself in their mind of experiencing all of these emotions for the first time. Experiencing, you know, yeah, this feeling of guilt. And like, and I just couldn't imagine being them. Because think about it. They, their bodies are the same. Yeah, but they don't. see it as same.

Your brain is no longer the same. Oof. And so that's how diabolical their eyes being open was, which is like, no, y'all body ain't degenerated. I'm pretty sure y'all both still look bombed.

You understand what I'm saying? Before this serpent showed up, everything was fine and beautiful and open and all. But now I'm vulnerable. Now I'm insecure. Now I'm blaming. Now I don't feel safe with you. Like, the only thing that happened was that they believed the lie and that changed everything.

Yeah, and that's deep. It's so deep to me because that's what I was going to say. Like, I think what immediately affected them then is what affects us still to this day. It is a lot of the things that we feel shameful about. It's all in our mind. It's literally in our mind. Like, we think that the people around us don't love us or we think that we're not deserving of this,

ridiculous. But the reality is, even in their failure, they had a God who still drew near to them. And of course, you know, curse the garden

and, you know, childbirth and all of that, like, kind of, there were consequences, but he did not judge the world without first promising to save. So they still had a present God there.

But can I speak to that real quick? Yeah. I think this is like not a new idea. I think I wrote this in my paper because it just came up when you said that. Yeah.

I think a part of the seed of shame started with Satan trying to frame God as not being for them. Yeah. Like, so even before they ate the fruit, did God really say,

so it was like the seed was planted that he really ate for you like that. He's with, holding something from you. Like he really, and he ain't even going to do what he said that he's going to do. And so to me, that has to play a part even in their shame with each other is they already have believed this lie that God is not for us. And if God ain't, like if without that, then I definitely don't think you for me.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm basically affirming the reality that I think how we understand how God views us plays a part in even how we view ourselves and how we view each other. That's good. That's good. Dressing about money is a thing for everybody, especially if you over 18. A lot of people aren't even irresponsible. They just weren't taught how to manage money.

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Because if you, yeah, that's really good because I think it started with that lie, right? That, you know, did God really say or God don't want you to be like him knowing, you know, good and evil? Like he wants you to be limited. Like he's withholding a good thing from you. And then when they ate from the truth of knowledge of good and evil, they, of course, experience. And so I could imagine being tricked at God, it's not for them.

And then just the emotion that they had when they actually are, like, faced. Like, to hear him walking in the cool of the day. Not running, not stumping, not that. Yeah, just coming towards him. It's like, now you're faced with this reality. Like, because I think it's a difference between the devil lying to you and the Lord ain't around.

And then the Lord is showing up and like, I'm still, God, I'm still the God who loves you. Now you face it to reality. So I think even we talked about this a little, a couple of days ago, like even Adam, having the temptation, like, it was the woman that you gave me. Like, shame made him, like, blame his wife, you know, for allowing her to eat from that tree.

And so I think that, like, the enemy does it. I think we said this a couple of years ago on the podcast, that the enemy gives you, like, the wrong food and then shames you for eating it. And I think that's the enemy's job is to just shame us for, yeah. Yeah, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but, you know. Yeah, shame has, I think, is in the definition. you said, it has a lot to do with exposure, being seen in a certain light by people. And I think what adds to shame is, Dan Alliter talks about it a lot, where it's contempt.

For example, I was, I had to go to a new school when I went to third grade because we have moved. And I, not surprisingly, I'm really, I was shy then, but I was just timid and to myself. But I also was really free. Like when kindergarten, first grade, second grade, I was freer because I hadn't met shame yet. And so when I went to third, we went to this third grade classroom. And they had already started school late because it was a different district. And so there's just all this anxiety because I have to go into the class and they've already built relationships. They've already built friendships and they're seated in the class so it's

uncomfortable. And so the teacher walks me and my mom in the class or whatever and I'm overwhelmed so I start crying. My whole third grade year, I got bullied and treated crazy, which literally changed the way I navigate life even to this day. But a significant part of that is when I expressed that I got bullied to somebody in my family. They were like, they bullied you because you cried. She was like, you showed them that you were weak, which communicated to me, oh, the way I'm being treated is deserved and warranted because I showed them my emotions. And so I started to connect how I move emotionally to like my ability to protect myself from stuff. That's shame. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like they saw me being a eight year old girl who was overwhelmed and

scared, but it's now I'm being treated a certain kind of way because of what you see about me. And so now you have to navigate life, like making sure people don't see how emotional you are. People don't see how vulnerable you are. People don't see how sensitive you are. So you have to find these fig leaves to hide yourself to protect yourself. And so I'm saying that's just one example of how shame and exposure and content play a part of who we become. That's good. That's really good. That's really good. And so, so can. Did that make sense?

It made a lot of sense. I think what I'm, and I've heard this story, you know, a bunch of times that I'm, I'm trying to figure out whether the shame come in. Why, I know, I just want to be clear, like, because when you, when you were bullied, right, like, did you feel the shame? Like, was it the person who said that thing to you? Is that when you felt the shame? Because. Because you feel the shame when you were getting bullied. In the same way that Adam and Eve were fully themselves,

but now there's a level of fear that if I am myself, you won't love me. When I showed up in that classroom, I was myself. Myself is sensitive. Myself is scared. And so what my, what I needed was to be comforted and saying, it's actually, you should be scared. That's, it's okay. you're in a new environment, it's all right. It's not wrong for you to cry.

But for someone to communicate that my abuse was deserved because my emotional self was seen, that's where the shame comes in. And so now I live a life feeling like if people really knew how sensitive I was, they would take advantage of it. That's shame talking. That's not truth. Yeah, yeah, that's deep. That's deep.

That's why, yeah, that's, yeah, I thank you for clarifying that because I think, think what this shows us, and I think for me, I've had similar things. Like, you know, in our counseling session, you know, last week we talked about how, like, my fifth grade teacher invoked a lot of shame in my life. My fifth grade teacher told me that I was the dumbest person in the class. And I was like, dang, you know? And I think early on, the enemy, like, he shames us. Yeah. Because I think the reason why you felt shame, because you were literally shamed. Literally.

You know, and I think like, I think the enemy tries to plant those seeds even when we were younger so that we can grow up believing this lie and being affected by shame in every aspect of our lives. And so I think for me,

when I realized, sort of like you in fourth grade, when my teacher told me, fourth or fifth grade, when my teacher told me that or whatever, throughout my life, belief system that I was not good enough has showed up everywhere. It showed up how I, how I, you know, communicate with the people that I love.

It show up how I teach or communicate. It show up how I deal with my children or my parents. Can I ask you a question? So many different things. Shame does. So Adam and Eve, they have tangible fig leaves to cover their nakedness. Me, I developed a kind of hard exterior. That's my, that's my fig leaves.

leaf is that I have to protect myself with what was said to you in third, fourth grade, what were your fig leaves? Because people can look at you and be like, but you're an apologist, you're an author, you're a podcaster, you're a communicator, you're a teacher. It doesn't seem as if it actually affected you at all. Yeah, what's crazy is I think, and this is not me saying this to sound like flex. This is actually like you, if you knew what I meant by this, you have to. Like, no, that's not a flex, but like, I'm a miracle.

Like, I think we're all miracles when it comes to our salvation. I think we're all miracles. I'm a miracle of, like, doing what I'm doing now. You know, and I think my fig leaves early on was just, I was very popular in school. I was popular in middle school. I was popular in high school. Can't relate. Yeah.

And so, and so, like, like in high school, I was, like, like one of the most popular people in my school. And it was really deeply rooted in my insecurity. Because I did not feel smart because of that seat that was planted in my head in fifth grade, I wrapped. I roasted people well. I, you know. You found something to be good at.

I found a lot of things to be good. I played basketball well. You know what I'm saying? I got in trouble. I fought. I stole things. I was proud of it. I was just bad.

And so because I was bad and because I knew how to like rap and do all these, I was popular. But deep down inside, I was so fragile and insecure. And so all, like, if people really saw me in high school, like the real me, they would have saw like, I'm still that same dude in fifth grade who doesn't think that he's intelligent. And so, but I just, I just covered it with the acceptance of everything else. And it wasn't until, you know, I became a Christian where the Lord was like, I want you to, yeah, like, I want you to do spoken word poetry. And I stopped performing poetry and I was like, oh, I'm creative.

And I'm actually a communicate. Like the devil like literally lied to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm a great thinker and all of the things. And even in Christ, I still had to work through a lot of shame because even though, because that's the thing about. shame. You can start operating in the thing that the devil told you that you couldn't operate in, but deep down and side, you still got this deep rooted shame. Yes. That affects your freedom.

That you got to unplug that lie. Because that lie can still be way down in there. You probably can be doing the things that you never thought you would do. It's like you still deep down the side believe that you're not good enough. Yeah. And that's just a lot from the enemy. And so yeah, I think in different seasons of my life, pre-Christ and in Christ, I had different things. My fig leaves have changed. Like, I've had so many different types of fig leaves. I've had fig leaves in Christ. Yeah, for sure.

Like, I've had a lot of fig leaves in Christ. It's like, you know, I remember when I first, and this is just me being 100, like, when I first started to be an apologist, and I wrote about this in my book, but even after, you know, since I started to, like, get corrected in this, a lot of my apologetic work was trying to meet, was me trying to prove to myself that I was good enough. that I was smart enough that I can destroy a person in the argument because my fifth grade teacher said

I wasn't dumb I'm gonna prove her right she probably gone I ain't gonna say with the Lord because if she didn't repent for a 10 I don't know what she's playing you get what I'm saying though like I think you know we we have

shame makes us have so many different fig leaves when the real fig leaf is recovered by the blood we're covered in Christ like recovered in his righteousness And I think that's just something we got a consistent room number. Hopefully you are making time for annual checkups, for doctor visits, for labs, for blood work. And I'm just interested in what keeps you consistent.

We got kids. We got four of them. We want to stay healthy for them. I actually do look forward to annual checkups. I don't know if Preston does. But what you do before your appointment actually does matter. So before your next checkup, make the one health change your doctor should notice. or you get your money back.

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the university study and get 20% off at fieldofgreens.com promo code Perry. That's Field of Greens. promo code period. I can see somebody feeling like it ain't that deep. You know what I'm saying? Like, okay, you got bully.

Okay, you was talked to crazy. We all got to protect ourselves on some level. And I think one of the main issues is that shame is rooted in a lie. Yeah. And so we are literally

centering, and molding our lives and how we navigate everything around a lie. You know what I'm saying? So a core lie for me and it's a core lie because these seeds are planted so young

before our brains are even developed. And so it becomes really ingrained in even our identity. And so a really significant core lie for me is that you have to protect yourself. That's a lie because God is, my protector. All people are not unsafe.

And so what that lie has created is that I move around, I move through the world not trusting nobody, including the people God has called me to trust, which means I'm not as free, which means I'm not as loving, which means I've even developed the capacity to not access my emotions as much as I should, which affects my empathy.

And so you got to see that the lie has far reaching, effects. So it's like that's why the Lord wants us to deal with shame because God wants us to deal with truth. Like we're people who are supposed to love and be rooted in the truth. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. What would you say some of the gospel implicate? Like what does the gospel say about shame and how we should approach shame in light of the gospel? Um, well, I mean, in the New Testament, you don't really see that word like that. Um, but I do. But I do. think that when it comes to how we deal with truth, how we deal with light, how we deal with freedom, I think it all applies to that. I think I was even reading, I think it's Second

Corinthians, it might be First Corinthians, where Paul talks about strongholds. And we have over-spiritualized strongholds where we automatically think it's a dumb, it's a demon over our minds or possessive, some type of possession or something like that. But a stronghold is literally a untruth that has lodged itself in your brain and is keeping the knowledge of God out. My gosh. That's it. That's actually very deep. What you mean? That a stronghold is a knowledge of, like, I don't want to mess up what you said, but just like. It's a belief system. It's a belief system and I'm a visual person. And so I think I received, like, it was visual for me.

Like it's a stronghold that's literally preventing truth from seeking it. Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's deep. Because in Paul talks about that because he is dealing with this belief that the Corinthian church has about him, that because he goes through the amount of sufferings that he goes through, he is not a legitimate apostle. That is a belief system that is now keeping his testimony, his wisdom, his instruction, his instruction, from the Lord out of their minds. So it's a stronghold.

And so shame can be a stronghold. If I'm believing something about God, about others, and about myself, that is literally not true. And I have to remove it so that the knowledge of God can come in. And so I think that is what the gospel does, is that the gospel exposes the lies

and the gospel replaces the lies. The lies is you are safe. The lie is you are valuable. I mean, the truth is, are saved. The truth is you are valuable. Like that's the truth because you're made in the image of God because Jesus died for you because Jesus saved you. Jesus is changing you. Jesus is resurrecting you. The gospel has everything to do with shame. Yeah. Yeah. The gospel, yeah. It's literally the opposite of saying shame. It's like

the Shane says that we're not worthy. The gospel says you were not worthy, but a worthy one died on your place. And so now in him, you are forgiving. You are worthy. You are embraced. you are loved, you have value, you are, you created in the Maguaday, the image of God. And shame robs of that. I love what it says in Hebrews 12, too. It says, looking to Jesus, the founder and the perfector of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross. And I love this word, despising the shame.

And it is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Because I think like when it says that he endured the cross, of course we know the cross is big. The cross is him enduring the cross encompasses, you know, him having to be the propitiation for our sins, taking on wrath and punishment, all that the like bearing our sins upon himself or whatever. But I think when it says despising the shame, I love that word despise. Because it could have said anywhere. It could have said, you know, rejecting the shame, but despising the shame because the cross did. bring a lot of shame. Like the cross was one of the most shameful deaths of his time.

Mind you, he was naked. Yeah, he was naked. So you have a- inherently shameful. Yeah. So you have a savior who is naked and you have one of the most shameful deaths of his time and he said he despised it. And I think what that shows me is that that Jesus is saying that your salvation was ever so before. me, the joy of your salvation was ever so before me. Like, the shame of the cross was literally like he despised it, like he pitied it. Like, it wasn't nothing to him in comparison to the joy that was set before him. And I think that when we think about that, we see how much shame cheats us. And I was thinking about shame one day. And I was like, shame cheats everybody. Yeah. Like,

one. A lie always does. Yeah. I think, I think, and when I say everybody, it cheats God, it cheats yourself, and it cheats the people around you. And I think the way it cheats God, I think it cheats God in a sense that if the Lord died, one of the most shameful deaths of his time so that you won't have to experience it. To operate inconsistent shame is kind of like, what did he die for? Right? And so it's like, it's like if you sacrificed a lot for your child, for them to experience something, but they're not really basking in this gift that you're giving them.

It's kind of like, man, like, what did I do this for? And so it's a robber of God, but it's also a robber of you. Like, grace is freely given. You know what I'm saying? Forgiveness is freely given. His love is freely given. His forgiveness is freely given. And when we operate in shame, it's like, no, like this stuff is free.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so it just robs you. And I think I think also too Shane robs others because there's been times where

because I think shame makes us so inwardly looking Yes It makes us hyper focus on our sin hyper focus on ourselves and it's been times where I feel like I was sinned against

with people and then I found myself in a conversation comforting them more so than they repented for the thing that they did against me

And I think shame cheats others because it doesn't allow us to truly repent because it doesn't allow us to even forgive ourselves. So if we don't forgive ourselves, we can not truly act for forgiveness for other people. And so the people that that's in your life, they getting cheated out of really experiencing you, really experiencing, you know, what true repentance looks like, because repentance looks like change. And I think shame doesn't allow us to change ultimately. I think it just allows us to be hyper-focused on ourselves, which therefore cheats so many people. So it just sheets everybody. I think that's what I'm trying to communicate.

I think I processed this with Ebenezer on his podcast because I was telling him how I can struggle with shame often when it comes to failure and not living up to a certain standard. And I think, I want to say this carefully, I think the way we talk about shame sometimes can make our victim mentality valid to the point where we don't also see some of the egotistical nature of shame. Okay. What do you mean about that? Okay, I think I know what you mean, but elaborate.

I'm saying what you were saying. But because, again, shame is a turning in on yourself and seeing your, even though you're seeing yourself in a way that isn't true, you're still looking. looking at yourself rather than looking at God to tell you about yourself. Right. And I just started to think, I was just like, huh? I was like, I think some of my, I said, not all. I was like, I think some of my issue with shame is that I just got a big ego. You know what I'm saying?

I even think about Eden yesterday. Preston, Eden is supposed to let down the garage door. And Preston is trying to tell her how to let down the garage door. And she gets mad and angry because he's telling her how to do the right thing. And so on one end, it's like she's a perfectionist. She wants to do the right thing. But it's also you don't want to fail because of what it communicates to you about you. And so if I fail because I send in this way or I didn't live up to this standard or I didn't do this thing,

it's like, no, you want to always win because it makes you feel good about you. when in fact some of that shame would actually be dissipate if you weren't as self-centered. So I'm not saying that all that like we shouldn't like hold each other and be like, I'm so sorry that they told you that. But I am saying some of this is pride. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to get it. It's just some of it is like pride.

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That's M-E-E-T, Fabric.com slash Perry. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company, not available in certain states, prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Because even when I told her like you're doing this wrong and she was like, I'm not doing it I'm like, you are doing it wrong. When you were talking, I was like, oh, she's acting like me. Yeah, I didn't want to say that, but I just said it. So you are doing it wrong.

Let me show you how to do it. And then when I showed her that she was actually doing it wrong, I saw this anger and the shame. And it's like what the reality should be, oh, I was taught how to do something right. Now I know how to do it right. There should be a delight and a joy in that. But because she's focused on I'm not doing something. and right. She's personalizing it way too much.

And you and I do the same thing with the Lord. I do the same thing with the Lord all the time. It's like, Lord, okay, yeah, I wasn't handled that a relationship right. And the Lord was like, I try to show you doing this, doing that, doing that, but you wanted the joy of figuring out yourself because you got the ego problem. That's not my problem. And so when I finally show you how to do a right, you experience shame because you got an ego problem. You know what I'm saying? And so a lot of it is connected to our wounded ego and our wounded pride. I think that we,

I think we ultimately want to be our own many gods. The same reason why they go to a plant to cover themselves when they could have went to God to cover themselves. It's like we don't, because to go to God means I have to deal with what I'm seeing. Who told you you were naked? Yeah. Like, and so I think, I think sometimes. times shame might be acute to some things that we need to repent of and we need to process with

the Lord and we need to work through. And so even with Eden, it makes me curious like when I start meeting because she's going in middle school and so I'm going to start like meeting with her about her emotions more diligently. But to me it says, what does your self talk about yourself sound like? How are you viewing? That's a good question. What is yourself talk? Because for her to so defensive when being taught something or instructing something must mean that you're trying to protect yourself from being looked at it. Like, do you find value in being smart? Do you find value in figuring? Oh, my sugar, though? Oh, it's high. Do you find, like, what do you, I don't know, I guess what I want to understand how she views her identity. And I think that plays a part

in how she's experiencing. That's a really good, that's a really great question to ask somebody. And I think the reason why it's a question because a great question to ask somebody is because how somebody shows up in their day-to-day life oftentimes would dictate or kind of display what type of lies that they're telling themselves. Absolutely. You know, because it's like a lot of our actions are just a bunch of big leaves that we're trying to do to cover up lies about ourselves and to make ourselves feel better about ourselves. And so I deal with this a lot with men. You know, I'm about to start my next book about biblical manhood. And we talk, even when I process with you, we're just talking a lot about shame.

A lot of men's issues, it's just shame. And so we overcompensate with, you know, muscles or how many women we can sleep with or how dominant we can appear in a room and how much, you know, somebody doesn't take advantage of us and how well people think that we're a great leader in our home is a whole bunch of fig leaves because we actually don't believe that we are who God says we are.

And so, you know, a lot of things are done out of insecurity because we just don't believe God when it comes to who he says he is in our lives. And I think, you know, that's just a part of the human fall and the human condition. We are just so broken. We're broken people. That's a connection I made when I did. did the study as it related to false teaching because I was just really intrigued by why people were so interested in sermons and books and podcasts that made much of them and not as much of God. And what I traced it back to was shame in the sense of one way we try to deal with shame is by

through flattery. And so that's the muscles. It's like if I feel small, let me make myself bigger so I'm flattered and therefore coping with the shame. Or let me, if I feel like I'm not important or I don't have dignity, let me listen to sermons that just gas me all day long

because that's the way that I'm going to restore my dignity is by somebody feeding my pride. And I think one of the, core issues is that some of our shame is that we just don't like the fact that we are actually weak. That's true. We are actually fragile. That's true.

We are actually limited. That's true. And so some of it is us trying to get beyond our humanity and we can't. And so I think if we become a little more content with being in this. this frame, then we wouldn't have to have all these fig leaves because God is the strong one. God is the wise one. God is the perfect one. He had all of the things that we're trying to get through these figlies, he has in himself, and I'm united to him. Yeah. And so, I don't know, I feel like we're exploring a lot of different things, but it's just multi-layered. There's

shames that that's been put on us through trauma that we got to deal with. That shame that we're putting on ourselves because of our ego, their shame that we're dealing with just because because we're discontent with being human. It's so many things. Yeah. And it's crazy how Shane can get in the way of, like, ministry so much. Yeah. And how, like, because what you just said, but also, too, like, in my last book,

How to Tell the Truth, a lot of, a lot of apologists that I've ran into around the country was like, why you wanted to talk about, like, behavior and, you know, conduct or whatever? And I told them, I was like, I've heard so many different argumentations about evangelism and apologetics. But one thing that we don't really explore is how many people are in this field because of shame. How many people are actually in this field because they felt like they were not significant and having great argumentations make you feel like you're somebody finally. And it's, I don't think it's just a coincidence that a lot of people in this, in this field

are nerds. It's like you were not affirmed, you were shamed. And so this is a way for you to kind of, like, this is a fig. And like I think God really does care and it's like even if you were nerdy, you're still accepted by the Lord, you know? And so just just questioning our motives of why we do things and the root of a lot of why we do things is shame. And what's important about that, especially, especially as it relates to ministry is if somebody is in apologetics, because they are looking to this work to build significance, then it means you're using ministry to feed you.

That's the danger. Yeah, that's selfish ambition. Yeah. It's self-centered. And it's not faith and therefore love. And so I think that's why we got to identify it and deal with it because it's like if I'm looking to anything to feed me and to sustain me more than God,

that thing will always be. be an idol in my life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how deep shame is. Yeah. It doesn't make us holy.

Yeah. I think about what you said in the beginning about third grade. And I think about... What a terrible year. Yeah. I think about me fourth grade. I think what threatened shame initially is the uncertainty of security. What you mean threatened shame?

Not threatened shame. I'm sorry. invoke shame, that's what I'm going to say. But invoke shame is when our security is messed up. It's like when we stop feeling secure in life, relationships, circumstances, school, like I think God in his, like I think God's original intent

is for us to be a community with people, for us not to be, you know, says it's not good for men to be alone, we meant to flourish, was originally meant to flourish without sin. But I think when sin is involved, I think our security, like your security and yourself, the people around you was threatened.

My security that I am seeing, that my mind was made by a holy and a righteous God, that idea was threatened. And I think when security, without security is messed with, I think then it's like, it's way easier to fall in shame. because it's like, I guess I'm not, I'm trying to say what I have it in my mind.

I think when our security gets messed up, it's just like, it just messes up everything. Yeah. And when I think about the gospel, I think Jesus came after, you know, man fell in the garden, after seeing incidents of the world to really give us a security again. To say, okay, things where I originally created man in my image and in my likeness. And because I'm a good and a holy and a righteous God, I created y'all and I called y'all good. The gospel starts off the good news. Bad news.

Sin into the world. Scent entered into the human condition. Now y'all all jacked up. Now all of y'all are insecure because there's really no real security when one's sent into the world. For sure. Right? Now I send my son to die a death that you deserve, to live a life that you can live, to take the sins of the world. upon himself. And now in him you are forgiving, you are love. And I think the Christian fight is to believe

that we have security in that. Yes. Like real security. And it's very hard to remember that. Yeah. I know I just said a lot, but I think, I think in my mind, that's what I... The gospel gives us security in an insecure world. It is. Thank you for just simplifying that. The gospel gives us security in a very insecure world because nothing really in this world is secure except Jesus. Like nothing. I think, because I'm thinking about how, like, you know, the Bible tells us to love God with all our heart,

mind, soul, sustens, and love our neighbors ourselves. I think the Lord uses the church and uses people to also be conduits of that security. What I mean is, I remember we keep bringing up Eden, but it was probably last year, somebody was talking about, I'm just texting podcast because you're going to keep calling me. Somebody, some girl or something was talking crazy to Eden at school. And you had picked her up from school and she, I guess you said she looked sad or something like that.

And you was like, what's wrong? And then she was like, so-and-so did this to me, da-da-da-da-da. You immediately pulled the car back around. Oh, yeah, they got me messed up. What is going on? Sorry, I took my insulin, but it's... The devil don't want to talk about shame. You think so?

Or I just need to take my insulin. But you pulled the car around and you went back into the school and immediately addressed the problem. And I bring that up because the same shame I got from third grade was because I didn't have anybody legitimately to stop it. You know what I'm saying? So it's one thing to... experience what you're experiencing at school and then to have somebody come to your aid, that kind of limits or hinders the full effect of what's happening. But then to go home and there not be any protection, it just exacerbates the shame.

Because it communicates that what I'm experiencing here, I'm actually not safe nowhere. So for you, I was like, I told you, I was like you literally put an immediate stop to something that could have dictated how she viewed. life period. Yeah. And so I'm saying I think as Christians, as parents, as friends, as leaders, as nurses, as teachers, I think even the Lord can use us to be conduits of security. That's really good. In people where it's like we're able to, because that's the anchoring. It's the, no, you're, you're going to be okay. I'm sorry that you went through that. You did not deserve that. To have those words of affirmation spoken over people in any circumstance, I think it's a part of our job as Christians is to do that.

Yeah, that's so good because it is a big responsibility to know that what we do and don't do has the potential to affect how somebody see God. Yes. Later on in life. Yes. It's like, yeah, like I think me sticking up for my child or anybody says God protected me in the form of Preston seven years ago. You know, which is a huge thing.

And I think, and shame is not the only thing that comes with stuff like you, you and even I experience, but shame has a lot to do with a lot of it. That's a good observation. Yeah, because I even, you know, I think I'm just a naturally, I'm a protected, period. But I think about, you know, just generational cycles, you know, and how the enemy wants to continue generational cycles of shame, of lies or whatever. And I think we as Christians and parents, we got to be aware of that. Yeah, you do.

So my wife experienced certain things. It's like, oh, you want my daughter to experience it too? It's like, no, we ain't having that. You know what I'm saying? We're good. We're good on that. She don't feel protected. She's going to feel overprotected.

She's going to get tired of me actually protecting her. Like, what? Dad, go home. Go home, Bucco. You know, but that's a good observation. I think it's part of like the ethic of like how Jesus wants us to care for the least of these. The widow, the old. orphan, you know what I'm saying? Like, even how you talk to people, strangers, people who are on the street and unhoused, like, how do you, how do you, do you dignify them or do you add to the shame? You know what I'm saying? When they pull up and ask you for some food or whatever. Like, I'm basically trying to say, like, I think how we show up as Christians in the church, in the world, and our friendships, and our relationships, and our parenting and our leadership can either add to or remove shame in people's lives. Yeah. And I think that's

important to be thoughtful about. Like we're not just, I don't want us just dealing with our shame just to deal with us because that continues to make it really self-centered, but to say like, no, I want to deal with me so I can love better. Yeah, yeah. And how does that love express to others? And then, too, I know that's going to sound just Christian, but it's so true. And we've probably heard this so many times reminding ourselves of the gospel daily really

does help, reminding yourself that you have been forgiven by a holy and a righteous God, meditating on everything that he has endured for you, for you to have life, meditating on how he wants communion with you and how he is giving you an opportunity to commune with him forever. Like meditating on the gospel really does, I think, can have a longing impact on how we view ourselves and how we view others and how we show up for others. Because I think a lot of times when we are dealing with shame, it's just in some way we have lost sight of the gospel.

or it might be evidence that there's something in it that's not making you believe the gospel that you are even looking at. And so just meditation on the gospel that you are forgiven, that there is nothing that you can do to deserve the rightness, the love of God, but he is freely giving it to you

because he's a good God. So just rest in that. Embrace that, you know what I'm saying? And read the Bible more than you think about yourself. Absolutely. So we'll put some resources in the show notes to go deeper on the on the subject and on the topic. But yeah, let's get free, guys.

Peace. Adios. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Libly. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.

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