With The Perrys - Turning the Cheek and Forgiving Offenses with Yana Conner

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

The Perrys are joined by Yana Conner, a writer and theologian passionate about understanding the character of God. Her new book, Living Beyond Offense, digs into the idea that forgiveness is at the heart of our faith. Why’s that? Because every time we forgive, we put the gospel on display. Yana shares honestly about writing this book while wrestling with her own relationships. She talks about how “turning the other cheek” is meant to restore and not enable, why God calls us to be “shalom makers,” and how forgiveness is less about forgiving yourself but about living forgiven.  Scripture references: Ephesians 1:9-10 Genesis 3 Romans 8:31-34 John 13:1-10, 21-27 John 17 Psalm 139 Matthew 18 Grab a copy of Yana's new book, Living Beyond Offense: https://www.amazon.com/Living-Beyond-Offense-Doing-Forgiveness/dp/0736990348/ Connect with Yana: https://www.instagram.com/yanajenay/ Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Blessed assurance. What up with y'all? Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine. That's what the song say. Air of salvation. Purchase of God. Talk to him.

I don't know the rest. Yeah, I knew you. I knew you was for the beginning. She always thought off the world. I know the gospel, though. How are you, sir? I'm sleepy. You know why I'm sleeping.

I'm asking so they know. You pray for me this morning because I didn't sleep last night. Why are you not sleeping? I don't know. I don't know. They're getting too personal. I feel like it's just little demons. You think it's warfare?

Just holding my eyelids open at night. Wow. Okay. Is it stress? Probably. I'm doing a lot right now. Okay. So you're not resting?

Yeah, it's just, you know, I just got back from Nashville, and now we're doing podcasts, and I got Africa tomorrow. It's just a lot. What's going on? So how can we be praying for you? I just can't wait into our yearly Sabbath. It makes me so happy when I could just watch football,

I could just eat. your chilling in cornbread and just sit on the couch and watch football all day. Don't do nothing. Well, you know, technically you can have cessation from work and not be rested. That's true. So the bigger issue is how do we... Good way to rain on my parade, buddy. How do we get that rest that should be?

I cast my cares. Okay, because he cares for you. How you doing? You pretty, your makeup even? We just want to welcome to the podcast. podcast. See, you don't want to focus on your prettiness. Yanna Connor.

You're so cute. Stop. Get with me. Hi, Yanna Connor. How are you? How are you? I'm doing well. He's going to have to forgive me for those offenses.

Oh, man, that's crazy. You know, but we're so glad to have you here. Yanna is, would you call yourself a theologian? Do that feel too big? It feels too big. It ain't too big. It feels too big. That's what you is.

I love theology. If theology is about musing on the character of God, the ways of God, then yes. Because you went to school. I did go to school. What did you get? I got an M.Div and Christian ministry. How many credit hours was that?

It was like 90 credit hours. And do you know that these people had the nerve to like lessen it? Like right when I graduated? So for me it was 90 credit hours to get the MDiv. And I think now it's like 70 or something like that. Well, in hindsight, that made you came out a little bit fuller. A little more, little text, a little more robust. Yeah.

God know what he can put on certain people because I need that 70. I probably need about 50. Yeah, they got that. You was equipped for 90. Not I. Yon is also from St. Louis. St.L. Shouty.

Shout out to you. Let's go. I don't remember what school you went to, though. Oh, man, that's crazy. So I went to Catholic school, St. Thomas Aquinas Mercy. I feel like I told you that I could tell. Oh, dang. No, that's not shade.

That's not shade. Because the school, the school people grow to tell. The school people goes to tells you a lot about them. Yeah. And even about their upbringing. Because to me that means like, oh, they really cared about you. Yeah. Not because I could have been at UCI.

I could have been at UCD. Oh, yeah. You'd be a different person. Yeah, I would be a completely different person. People don't understand. Because I didn't roll through St. Louis. St. Louis is rough. Yeah.

It's rough. I ain't going to spend y'all. Anywho. Yonah, y'allna got a book that I want you to gird up your loins. You know what I'm saying? That's not to say be afraid. That ain't what I'm saying. I'm just saying, Yanna has written a book that I think gets at the heart,

not only of the Christian faith, but the heart of our disunity and our marriages, in our friendships, in our churches. I think this book is just so necessary and valuable because it's so difficult to do. What is it called? living beyond defense. Hello? Doing the hard work of forgiveness, God's way.

I'm not going to ask you why you wrote it. I hate when people ask me that question. And before we get into all the things, I just, I mean, I'm an artist and I love art. Oh, you like that? And I like the cover. I really think, like, cover is a big deal. And I think being simple,

but at the same time, creative, is a skill. Sometimes people be doing too much. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, appreciate that. I ain't going to ask you why you wrote it. I don't like that. question. Okay. It's too easy. It's too boring. But also, I don't think you wanted to write it.

No, I didn't. That's the question I want to ask. Yeah, no, I did not want to write this book. I wrote this book out of weakness. My own mama, when I told her like, yeah, so going to be writing a book. It's going to be on forgiveness. She was like, who are you? Like, you're going to write a book on forgiveness because she knew that this wasn't like a strength of mine. I would even say it was like the Achilles heel of my walk with the Lord. And so I didn't feel qualified to write it. And I could actually think about five people in my life that I had a strained or broken relationship with.

And people who would probably laugh in my face if they knew that I was coming out with a book on forgiveness. And so I remember I had the conversation with the publisher. They were like, bet this is what we're going to do. I ghosted them for two months because I was like, yeah, I don't think I need to do this. But then I remember going to the Jew 3 Project conference, courageous conversation, and they were having a conversation about church hurt. And as we were moving through the conversations, I was like, yo, like, where does forgiveness enter in? Because at some point, if you're going to heal from church hurt, you have to forgive someone.

And so I remember just kind of lobbing that question up on a panel. And I wasn't met with much of a response. And I was like, yo, if we are the people of God, then we should be people who have something robust to say about forgiveness. And so for me, that was kind of my wake-up call, that this was a needed and necessary part of the conversation so that people can heal and actually live beyond, like, offenses that happen in their life. I'm curious to know, though, in the book writing process, I think every Christian author

goes through spiritual warfare. Oftentimes, when we tackle a topic, the enemy of the topic, attack us in that exact same thing. Like if you're talking about forgiveness and like you said, so many things popped up about, you know, people that you haven't forgave. When I wrote my book about evangelism, I just did not like people. I never said you don't like people. Yeah.

It's like I was struggling and like the enemy was fighting me against the very same thing that I was writing to try to put out in the world. So my question is when you were dealing with all of those personal feelings about like how did the Lord? because even spiritual warfare is not just the enemy we know. It's the Lord also trying to reveal things to us. Absolutely. To bring stuff to the surface, not just for our own healing,

but when we work through those things, I just know that it actually comes out better. You know, so how did that process for you look like in dealing with your own personal, you know, relationships and writing this process? Yeah, I think in almost with every, the start of every chapter was a new conflict. Wow.

in a relationship with someone who was close to me. And so I felt really bad for my friends because I was like, I feel like y'all are all just catch it straight just from being in association with me. And it was like friendships. It was stuff in the church. And it was almost as if like the very thing that I was writing about was the very thing that we were struggling with. And so that was hard. But I think it helped me to write each chapter from a more honest and like vulnerable place,

like from a human place versus from this high and haughty place of like this is just what the scripture says. It's like, no, I'm actually wrestling through this. And so I think it helped bring a little bit more color to the book. But then not only that, like, once I started to realize, like, oh, this is a pattern, like, let me just, you know, let me fall back. Let me be slow to anger, you know, and be curious and not make assumptions and those kinds of things. Then it was, like, random stuff, like, fraudulent activity on my, like, bank accounts. That happened twice. Okay.

And then after that, like, it started with technology as well. And so the computer that I wrote the whole book on when we were doing the edits, the day that I was supposed to turn the edits in, my computer just malfunctioned. Wow. And so Microsoft, like, just pops up this screen. It's like, sorry for the inconvenience. And I'm like, I'm not sure what the inconvenience is about to be. Like, I don't know what's going to happen. But my computer.

Oh, I did. I was in the library in Durham, downtown, like, in the library. I couldn't scream because they would have There's some officers in there They would have kicked me out And so I just pushed okay And it like completely reset the whole document Every edit for the last two weeks

Was lost And it was due like at midnight And I think it was like 3 p.m. So I just packed my little stuff up And I left went home Did you cry? Oh yes Oh my goodness

I'm a thug but I would have like I would have shared a couple tears I'm like Lord what are you trying to do Yeah and it really like disrupting in my faith a little bit because I was like, God, you got me out here. Like, you got me out here. This was your idea. Doing this thing, doing this thing, like, you got to have my back, you know. And what was crazy is that the next day I was supposed to be speaking to some college students at Duke. And the main idea, if you will, for that time was like the evil one comes to steal, kill,

and destroy our faith in a God that is good. And that moment was really trying to kill, seal and destroy my faith in a God that was good. And who has my back and who's looking out for me. It was also like the week before my 40th birthday. And so I was like, really, is this what we're doing? So thankfully, the publishers gave me an extension and then I was able to get it done. But I spent my 40th birthday like in a cabin by myself just trying to get the edits done. But I wasn't prepared for the kind of grief that would come with that. Yeah. Yeah, it's costly. You opened up the book talking about shalom makers, which was an interesting way

to open up the discussion on forgiveness, I guess, because I just haven't heard, you don't even hear about the sermon on the Mount a lot, one, but Blessed Our Peacemakers, is like, oh, yeah, peacemaking is a part of the whole thing. Because, you know, when you watch the Chosen,

you hear shalom, shalom, shalom, shalom. Like, you'd be thinking, like, oh, this is like a doxology, you understand what I'm saying? So how does that, how does shalom making, being a peacemaker. How is that a part of this conversation? Yeah. And so for me,

Shalom is a theology that has really helped me navigate life. One, me understanding what we were all created for. Like we were all created to live in a garden filled with Shalom, filled with wholeness where everyone thrives. Everyone has what they need.

This picture of Adam and Eve standing in the garden, naked and unashamed, is just really beautiful to me because they don't have a care in the world. Like they don't have to watch each other's back. They're not like self-centered and overly concerned about themselves. They're just able to coexist with one another with complete acceptance and harmony. And for me, it's the

most beautiful but like heartbreaking picture in the Bible because it's like, oh, this is the thing that we're all longing for. We all want to stand before other people naked and unashamed, but we often stand before one another clothes and ashamed, right? And so like that's, that was sort of the tension for me is like, man, this is the thing that we're longing for, particularly when our relationships, you know, become broken. And then for me, Ephesians 1, 9, and 10 have really become formative for me where Paul says, this is the mystery of God's will, which is to unite all things, things in the heavens and the earth and in Christ. And then in Ephesians, Paul continues to talk about how God has reunited us to him in the first half of Ephesians too. And then

how he's reunited us to one another. And so I'm like, if this is what God has been up to since Genesis 3, since the beginning of time, like what does it look like for me to partner with him in that? And I think in Matthew 5, we get the language where Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. And it makes sense that we're, that he says, they shall be called the children of God. He doesn't give that, you know, a title to any other of these nine beautiful groups, but to that one he does. because we are made in the image of a God who makes shalom. And a God who seeks to make peace.

And so when we make peace, we prove that we are his children. We carry his shalom making his merciful, compassionate DNA. What is peace, though? What is peace? That's so good. So I'm going to steal Dr. Tamaki from the Bible Project. He says that biblical peace isn't the absence of conflict. It's the presence of harmony.

And so you can still have. peace could still be, you could still be working peace and there would be conflict in the midst of that because you're working together to fix the issue. That's great. So that's the harmony there, right? You're working together to fix the issue so that you can move forward together. And I think for us, like if you look up peace in the dictionary, it just talks about feelings of tranquility and calm, but that's not biblical peace, because you can have all of that, but not have harmony. That's great. I have a question, though. That's deep.

That is. But Marlon the King also said that he said peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice. Yeah. And so with so much offense out here, so many people have offended us. You know what I'm saying? How does, how do we kind of take the step of making that peace when it's so much offense out here? Yeah.

Because it is a justice. Like, because, you know, when somebody, you know, sins against you, We created an image of God, so we want justice. And so how does one get over that and still seek peace when they've been offended? Yeah, I think that's so good. I think Jesus gives us the answer to that question in Matthew 5 when he commands us to turn the other cheek. So he says, you've heard it said, he says, you've heard it said, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. I say to you, if someone smacks you on your right to turn.

to them the other, the other cheek. That's so hard. That's one of the hardest. You heard Toby's song, try Jesus. Yeah, we talk about that in the book. We can talk about the song of the book. But I think I always thought that Jesus meant to suffer more abuse, right? That's what it sounds like.

But that's not actually what that means. And so in that culture, if someone would slap you on your right cheek, they essentially are back slapping you, right? So they're back slapping you. And in a Jewish culture, which is a shame and honor culture, this is a very dehumanizing act. And so it's something that a slave owner would do with a slave to say, I am better than you. I am on a higher level than you. I'm in a different class than you.

And so when Jesus commands you to turn your other cheek, he's actually commanding you to humbly confront them. And so because if they slap you now with an open-handed slap, then there's, they are restoring to you your dignity. They are restoring back to you, uh, your dignity because an open handed slap is a slap that is shared between equals. Wow. Right.

And so that's really, I think the, what the whole power of the civil rights movement was, is that they were trying to awaken the conscience of their offenders. And so that's the, the idea is that when you turn the other cheat, the hope is that this person's conscience will awaken. Wow.

For them to recognize, no, we actually are created equal, right? We are both in the image of God. That's so good. And so it's your way of saying, no, I am not less than you. Like, I am on your same level and I'm worthy of honor, I'm worthy of honor, dignity, and respect. Now, usually somebody wouldn't slap you. Yeah.

You know, on the other cheek. They would prefer to pay the fine. Unless they're Will Smith. That was. Yeah, that did make it in the book. That was. He went up here with it. Out of your mouth.

He went. Seriously. Jackie was asleep. I said, Jackie, I think he. No, I was not sleep. I was up. You was on a phone. I thought it was a skit until he started cussing.

She got out. It was tough. He was a tough moment. But like, you know, Chris Rock, he didn't, he didn't slap him back. He sure did not. Which I thought was like, wow, bro. That's crazy. Yeah.

You were a real one. You know. for that. And so the goal is that like their conscience would awaken. And so it's like how do we move forward with people who've offended us, right? Particularly in this moment where we're all concerned with justice and we should because being a shalom maker also means to love mercy and to do justice. But how do we do it in a way where we're not just trying to be punitive in our justice? To find that. Where we're not trying to punish them, right? We're not trying to cancel them. We're not trying to make them feel bad about themselves.

That's good. We're not trying to dehumanize them in the same way that they do dehumanize us. But instead, we are turning the other cheek in hopes that they would be restored to a right thinking about themselves and about others. That's excellent. You talk about how in our society people are self-conscious, people are self-centered, and people walk in self-preservation. explain all of that to us. Yeah, that's probably like the nerdiest part in the look. And so I appreciate you bring it up.

But yeah, like we all are sort of inundated with this self-conscious, self-centered, self-preservation. And it really starts in Genesis 3. Like we get it. We get it honest. And so Adam and Eve, they go from this place of being naked and unashamed to being naked and now a shame. And now they have to cover themselves. So they become self-conscious.

about their bodies and they don't feel as safe as they used to with one another. They become self-centered. And then also they become self-preserving, particularly when God comes to Adam. He's like, Adam, where are you? And he's like, you know, I heard you come and I was like, let me go hide. And then after that, he's like, did you eat from the tree? And he says that woman that you gave me, right? And so in that moment, Adam is trying to save himself.

He is trying to preserve his own righteousness by throwing Eve under the bus. But then Eve does the same thing. She was like, uh-uh, it was a serpent. It wasn't me. It was a serpent, right? And so everybody's trying to preserve themselves and they're looking out for themselves. And we all do the same thing. Yeah, we do.

We are self-conscious. We are self-centered. And we all are trying to save ourselves because we don't like being vulnerable. We don't like being wrong, you know. And so when we offend someone, instead of just confessing it, we hide. Right? We deflect. We try to act like it was not that big of a deal when it actually is.

But when we're doing that, we're just trying to preserve sort of this picture that we have of ourselves. But all throughout Scripture, we see people continuing to behave in this way. Like, anytime we see abuse in Scripture, that's someone being like really, really self-centered and just thinking about their own desires, their own passions, their own pleasures. They're not thinking about how those acts are going to impact the other person and disrupt their shalom.

And then anytime we see, even like with Pharaoh in Exodus, he's trying to save, he's trying to preserve his own people. So he's willing to do away with all the Jewish people so that he can be safe. And we all behave in that way

in small ways. Anytime you're trying to get the last word in an argument, anytime you are sending a passive aggressive text, anytime you are giving someone the silent treatment, like we are all sort of behaving in this self-conscious, self-centered, self-preserving way. See, that's what I'm talking about.

I think what came to my mind, I don't want to fast forward because we're going to get into Jesus and washing feet and your insight on that. But all I hear is just the instability insecurity, and unrighteousness that came with being

disconnected from the Lord. You get what I'm saying? Because it's like if we, I think there is a security that comes with being known by him, loved by him, seen by him,

forgiven by him, that then could free you to actually not do none of that. You understand what I'm saying? So to me, what's at play if I send the passive aggressive text or what's at play

when I'm trying to keep myself safe is I don't believe you're a refuge for me. Yeah. I am my safest refuge. Therefore, I have to move in such a way that dishonors them just so I feel secure. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And to add to that, one of the things that I thought about was how you said, you know, Eve tried to shift blame. Adam tried to shift blame. You know, when I first became a Christian, I'm just being all the way 100, and I still struggle with it now. I've dealt with that like a lot. When my disciples would call me out, I would just always try to shift the blame.

And I think what I was trying to do is what they were trying to do, I didn't want to feel shameful. I didn't want to feel bad. And so it was easier for me to shift the blame because I didn't want to sit in attention to have to look at myself and say, you did this again. You offended somebody again. He's called me Peter because I had just a loose tongue. Like, okay, you're stupid again. And so I guess my question is, how does one escape that shamed? what are we looking at and what are we not looking at that makes us focus on

ourselves so much when when God says why did you do this why did you know man that's so good so if if in the beginning we were naked and unashamed and then we were naked and ashamed I think in Christ we become clothed and unashamed that's good And so Christ, he clothes us with his righteousness. And so we don't need to be to be ashamed because our lives are hidden in Christ. And I think for anyone, so I'm glad you brought that up because somebody just messaged me asking me the, how do I forgive myself question? And I think that kind of points to the shame piece. Nowhere in scripture, do we see anybody forgiving themselves?

It's not a work that we see anybody doing. when David sins against Bashiba and Uriah, you know, he goes to the Lord. He says, it's against you and you alone that I've sinned. So he recognizes that his primary, the person he's primarily offended is God. And that who the forgiveness that he needs the most is the Lord's. And so I think when we start getting into this like forgive myself sort of rhetoric, what we're doing is that we're putting ourselves actually in the place of God. And so in James 5, it says there is only one lawgiver and there's only one judge.

And it's God. So would you say instead of using the language, forgive myself, maybe we need to forget about ourselves. In a sense, that will make us focus on God who we offended in other people. Yeah. And so I'm like, anytime I'm like talking to somebody about this, I'm like, your work isn't to forgive yourself. your work is to live forgiven. Oh, yeah, that be a Keshe. I was going to throw your own book at your forehead.

My God, say it again. It's to live forgiven, right? And so in Romans 8, you know, he's like... I want y'all to notice all this text you got, huh? Y'all be reading these books that got two verses. This girl ain't even got her Bible open. It's just text, text, text, text, particularly in the third chapter, part B of Roman 8,

It says, what? And actually what they mean in the Greek, the Eric man in the Hebrew. She has hidden his word in her heart. That's why you can't. I'm just, I just wanted y'all to take note. I said she didn't say about 15 scriptures. Come on. But yeah, in Romans 8.

Yes. She'll open a book so she won't be awkward. Look at her. Well, I was like, I do need to look it up for this one. So I appreciate it. Come on. It says, what then shall we say of these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up. for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Will it be Christ? He is the one who died more than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God and who is currently interceding for us.

And so when we are wrestling with this idea of forgiving ourselves, we are actually the ones who are bringing charges up against ourselves. And I remember really struggling with this early in my walk with the Lord and him helping me to see that when I'm doing that, I'm joining the accuser of the brethren. I'm partnering with Satan in that, and the condemnation that he's trying to bring in my life versus receiving God's verdict over my life.

Like if he is the judge and he gave the verdict and he is sovereign, he's in control, then his verdict is final. And if he says that if I confess my sins, and put my faith in Christ that I am forgiven, then that's, that's the end of it. And who am I to just be in court, you know, and be like, no, no, no, I'm wrong. I need to be locked up, you know, I need to go to jail. And it's like, no, you've been freed. And so why would you return to that?

And so the work that we need to do is to live forgiven, to like rest in the gospel, to rehearse the gospel, to memorize scripture so that it can be hidden in our heart so that we can remember what Christ is done for us. Yeah. Because I'll just say this, baby. I don't let you have a question. I know you got it. Because one thing that I'm still burning a little.

One thing that I realized in my own life is that shame, I was often just attack with shame, you know. But it rarely gave me even room to repent to others. Because when I sin against others and I need to ask for their forgiveness, I spend that time actually wallowing in my own shame. And so it's actually still unfair to the person that I offended because it's like I should be walking in repentance with them but I'm actually just still you know what I mean wallowing in my own shame

but at the same time the devil's beating me up the whole time because shame is shame condemnation all those things it is self-orienting you know you are you are turned in on yourself in a way and I think the double whammy that the flesh and the devil

are working is that if I'm focused in on myself because of some shame, like I didn't do this right. I didn't love them well. I didn't do that. Then it's like some of that self-pity keeps you from repentance. Yes. You know what I'm saying?

You're spending so much that because this is me. You spending so much time thinking about what you didn't do right that there is a convenience that it leaves you from like accountability. You know what I'm saying? Because I think that's some of the warfare is like, get up. Obey, say sorry, you're righteous in Christ, you are imperfect and move along. Yeah. Just move on along.

I want to turn to John chapter 13 because I think it was a couple months ago, Yonah was on my deck. We were in the heat. It was hot. It was very hot, but it was quiet. It was either go where the kids are. And the dog. Don't forget about December.

I think that's when he was fresh out of the sick and unwellness. What's that? sick and shut in list. And you were talking to me about Judas and Jesus. I didn't like what you said, but I love what you said. And so I just... She came home and told me. I couldn't believe it.

She said, Yonah didn't mess me up on this little porch. I was really torn the shreds and pieces. I want to read it. And then I just want you to walk us through it. Like I literally, if it take you 10, 15 minutes, I don't care. I just want you to walk us through this text. Okay. Okay.

Where are you wanting to start? What verse? One. Of John 13? Well, I love the Bible, so, yeah, one. Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. During supper, comma, this is where she's going to take us, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Ascariat, Simon's son, I would be like. like why y'all got to put if i'm the daddy don't don't say don't put my name in that text i don't know that that man i didn't tell him to betray the bosaia um when the devil had already put it into the

heart of judas to scare it to betray him comma jesus comma knowing that the father had given all things into his hand and that he had come from god and was going back to god comma rose from supper he laid aside his outer garments and taking a towel tidied it around his waist then he pour water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter who said to him, Lord, do you wash my feet? Jesus answered him, what I am doing, you do not understand now, but afterward you would understand.

Peter said to him, you shall never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, if I don't wash you, you have no share with me. Simon Peter said to him, Lord, not my feet only, but my whole body. I'm paraphrasing, but also my hands in my head. Jesus said to him, the one who has bathed does not need to wash except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you. Where do we get to the other part? 21.

Yeah, you're right, 21. After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit and testified, truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me. The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples who Jesus loved was reclining at table at Jesus side. So Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. speaking. So that disciple leaning back against Jesus said to him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, it is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped. So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Ascariot. And after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered

into him. Jesus said to him, what you are going to do quickly. Go quickly. Your turn. Yes, I think traditionally when we've read this text, we thought, that the main characters were Jesus and Peter. But I think Judas is actually one of, is more important in this passage than Peter is. One, because of how John sets up the washing of the feet. But then in the passage, Judas is mentioned three, three times. Like if you read 1 through 21, he's mentioned all three times.

And so just the fact that, the first thing, he wants you to know is that during supper, the devil had already put it in Judas's heart to betray Jesus. And then Jesus, knowing three things, knowing that the father had given all things into his hands and that he had come from God and that he was going back to God, he rose from supper. And then he takes off his outer garment. He ties a towel around his waist and he proceeds to wash his disciples feet, but not just his disciples feet, his betrayers. feet. And then he goes on. And even when they're having this whole interaction with Peter, Jesus is like, oh, Peter, you're already clean, but not all of y'all clean, right? So Jesus is there

hinting to Judas again. And then it keeps going. And I can't find where the verse is, but then he'll say that one of you is going to betray me. And he's like, it's the person who's already eating my bread. And it's like, okay, that's really interesting. Why is Jesus talking about bread. Why is this sort of the way of him identifying his betrayer? And I think what Jesus is doing there is he's hinting to the fact that they've already had communion. Right. And we know that communion is representative of the forgiveness that Jesus offers us on the cross. So just think about this. Not only did Jesus wash this man's feet, but he also allowed him to participate in communion. And then when he sends Judas off to betray him, he offers you.

Judas communion again. He says it's the morsel of bread when I dipped it. What could he possibly be talking about? This bread that he dipped it in and then he gives it to Judas and then Judas goes and does what he does. And so for me, this has been like a really transformative text because it's like one, forgiveness is hard. But in here where Jesus says he's like in verse 12, he's like in verse 12. he says, do you understand what I've done? He's like, no, you don't really understand what I've done. But I've given you this example that you should do just as I have done to you. And I've always just thought about this as Jesus washing his friend's feet.

But that's not the only person's feet that he's washing in this moment. And so it's not just about us washing, meaning serving and forgiving our friends, but even those who would betray us even unto death that we would offer to them. forgiveness as well. And what I love about this text is that in this, Jesus is modeling to us how to do forgiveness God's way. Wow. Because Jesus is free to forgive.

He's not forgiving for freedom. He's forgiving from a place of freedom because of these three things. He knows that the father is going to give him all things. And so, yes, Judas, you sin against me. You owe me a debt. But I don't have to worry about this debt. I don't have to hold you responsible for paying me back. Why?

Because I know that God's going to pay the debt, right? I know that God's going to take care of it. He's going to give me all things. And then he also says, the second thing he knows is that he has been sent into the world. Sent into the world to do what? To forgive sinners. And so I think for us, the framework is like, no, we've been sent in the world to be ministers of reconciliation, to be shalom makers. This is a part of what it means to follow Jesus.

And then he says, and then Jesus knows that he's going to go back to the father. And I love that because it points for me to the fact that all this pain that we're suffering because of the offenses that we occur as we live in a broken and fallen world, all of this pain is temporary. Yeah. Like we are going back to the father. And when we know that we're going to go back to the father where he's going to wipe away every tear from our eyes where we are, the shalom will be completely restored, then we can say freely, I forgive you. Yeah.

I forgive you. Yeah. And Jesus models that in John 17 doing a high priestly prayer, the longest, prayer of Jesus in scripture, he talks about, you know, Father receive me back into your hands. He literally says, I kept each and last one of these little ones except one we predestined for destruction talking about Judas. And he's now talking about being prepared, like back into the hands of his father, like receive me, Lord. I want to leave this place because I kept the good work of ministry. And so I think looking to Jesus and thinking about heaven is super

important. Yeah. Because people will be getting on my nerve. You know what I'm saying? That's good. I mean, when it's come to your own moments where you've had to forgive others, how have you practically work through verse three? You know, like how have you thought through knowing that the father has given it all things to his hands? That he come from God and was going back to God. What does that look like?

Yeah, no. Yeah, I'm actually walking through something right now. And it's one of those offenses that is like a life-changing offense. And the debt initially felt so, so weighty. And I just was filled with so much hurt, but also like so much anger. But the truth that alleviated me from that was just knowing that God is going to take care of me. And also having this track record with God where he's always taking care of me. And so in remembering that my life is not in this person's hands who just offended me,

but my life is in the hands of a really, really good God. who takes care of his children. He's not a neglectful father. He doesn't abandon. And so for me, in that moment of just feeling all of that pain, I had to remember that God's going to take care of me. And not only is he going to make sure that I have what I need, but he's like, he's actually going to heal, heal me.

And then remembering that, like, I am called to forgive. Like, I am called to be a shalom maker in the world. I am called to seek reconciliation when it's possible. and that doesn't mean that it's not going to hurt. That doesn't mean it's not going to be awkward. That doesn't mean that the relationship won't be strained for a while. But how do I take up this God-given identity and mandate, like to make Shalom with this person who has offended me? And so I'm doing that out of obedience to Christ, but also out of worship of what he's done for me.

Right. And so I often say, like, if you're having a problem. or you're struggling to forgive, like if forgiveness feels out of reach, like reach for the cross, like the cross that saved you. And I love, and I think that's even part of the reason why Jesus is like, forgive and you'll be forgiven. Forgive and you'll be forgiven because it's like, it's from this place of knowing that we are forgiven that we're able to extend forgiveness to others. And so if you have a forgiveness problem, you might have a gospel problem. You know, there might be some gaps in your understanding of what Jesus is.

has done for you, there might be some gaps in your experience, you know, of what God has done for you. But remembering my identity as a shalom maker. And then also just with everything, all suffering, it's just like, this is not the end. This isn't the end of the story. And even like, I won't just see the goodness of the Lord in heaven, but I will also see it in the land of the living. And so remembering that I'm going back to the father. And not only is he going to heal me, you know, when I go back, but I also want to, I do want to hear well done, you know, like, and I want, I want to, um, to please the Lord in the way that I live. And so that sort of motivates me to even move towards forgiveness and even move towards offenders when, when it's hard. And I, Yon, Juna Juna and Connor,

once, you know, I want to hide. I want to, you know, I'm, if it's a fight or flight, I'm flighting, you know. That's what I want to do, but I'm choosing to submit to Christ because I know that he loves me and I know that he knows what's best for me. And I think when you start doing the work of forgiveness and you experience like the joy and the freedom of it, like it helps you to do it again and again and again. I like how you explain forgiveness as work, you know, because I, and the work including pain, grief, lament, hurt, frustration, maybe, I think the more hurt you are, the more perplexed you are, it's like, where did that come from? Why is this happening? Like, there's a lot involved. And I think sometimes we can think forgiveness doesn't require work

and that's why we don't do it. Or if we do it, we do it very, in a shallow way. Whereas I'll let him go, but you haven't grieved. So I don't know how deeply the forgiveness is because you're numb. You understand what I'm saying? So I guess in your book you also talk about the process of forgiveness. What is that process? Take us through the steps. Can I see the book?

There you go. You wrote it. It's like, yeah, I think. It's towards the end. It's towards the end. I appreciate it. Forgiveness is a spiritual, there it is. There you go.

She got graphs in here. She got visual. Helps. Yeah. I think, so you can't forgive something that you're not willing to honestly acknowledge.

So you have to honestly acknowledge. Come on now. You have to say how it felt you need to allow your feelings to feel what they feel and not sugar-coated. You can let the spirit, you know, sanctify it a little bit later.

But I think the first step is to honestly acknowledge what happened. And to not downplay it in any, any kind of way. And then after that, after you just kind of put it all out there before the Lord and maybe a good counselor, you know, and some trusted friends, then like, then invite the Lord to search your heart. So I think, not I think, we've been reading Psalm 139 wrong. We've been reading it as this treatise that has all these beautiful things to say about us. But Psalm 139 is actually then precatory psalm, which is a justice psalm. And what we find is that David is actually in some

sort of conflict. And so right after he says, I'm fearfully and wonderfully made, then he's like inviting the Lord to search his heart, right? And right before that, he says some what feels like really weird stuff about evil doers and how he's angry. And he's like, Lord, am I not with you? You know, and so when he says that, he's like inviting the one who knows him the best, who knows him better than he knows himself to inspect his heart to see if there's any grievous way in him. If he's seeing his offender or this offense in an ill way. And then to lead him in the way of everlasting. And so that's kind of the heart of like, okay, so you're mad about all these things.

But now how do you invite the Lord to search your heart and to test and know like your anxious thoughts and your grievous ways? Because the truth is that sometimes we are offensive. because people aren't worshipping our idols. Sometimes we are offended because we have unrealistic expectations. And so you're mad at them because they impede it on your day, but that's because you have an idol to work, right? You're mad at them because when they showed up, they weren't as fun as they usually are. And it's because you have an idol of entertainment.

And so, and then sometimes we make ice. idols of people, right? And so they're not showing up for us in all the ways that we want them to. And they can't because they're a human. So maybe three days out of the week, they can do it. And then the other days they can't. But when they're not able to perform the way that you want them to perform, then there's conflict. Right. And so that's, that's in James. He's like, why is they're quarreling, you know, among you? Is it not because of the passions and the desires that rage at war within? And so sometimes we're offended because yes, someone's sinned against us. but sometimes we're offended because of what's going on in our own hearts. And then sometimes it's a little bit of both, you know. And so we want to invite God to search our hearts so that we can see that person and we can see that situation clearly. And then we can discern, okay, what is the actual thing that I need to forgive them of, right? And it may be that, no, they didn't sin against me.

They were just having a bad day and they couldn't show up for me in a way that I wanted them to. And what I don't need to do is have a hard conversation with them. what I need to do is extend to them grace. What I need to do is not be so self-centered, right? And to think about my own well-being and to think through, man, how can I serve, serve them? And so you invite the Lord to search your heart. Then you make the decisive decision to commit. That's good.

You commit to forgiving them. Notice that the only person we really talked to so far is God. Yeah. Right? And so you make that decision to forgive them before. before God. And so forgiveness is the merciful decision to release an offender of their debt and to not retaliate

against them in anger. So you make that decision to do that. And I suggest that you do it before you go and talk to them. Because we still want to humbly confront. Right? We still, okay, we want to turn the other cheek. We still need to have a conversation about the thing that happened. So we

humbly confront them. But we don't go into it expecting an apology. We don't go into it. expecting a certain kind of response. We take that step as a step of obedience, not just to restore the relationship, but to restore the person back to God. Because if they send against you, that also means they send against God. And we need to be not just concerned about them apologizing to us, but realigning themselves with the Lord. And then after that, we consider if reconciliation is possible. Reconciliation will not always be possible. And so,

So reconciliation does not equal forgiveness. John 18, God, Jesus lays out like just a literal flow chart of how that's supposed to work. So he says, if your brother or sister sins against you, go and tell them their fault. If they listen, you've won. Matthew 18 or John? Matthew 18. Yes, ma'am. Yep.

You've won your brother or sister back. If they don't listen, then go get some mediators, some witnesses. If they don't listen to the witnesses, then go and get to the witnesses. is then going to church. We don't usually go through those steps. I think we need to return to those steps. But the word, listen there, in their culture means if they list, like if they confess their sins and if they repent.

So if they agree with you that what they did was wrong. Not just heard you. Not just heard, not just heard you, but agreed with you. This is ministry. I'm trying to tell you. I'm sitting in thinking like, this is some good ministry. I have several people in my mind. Like I'm like, she is teaching.

teaching me what to do. Oh, my goodness. This is some ministry. I ain't said a thing. Y'all better, man. Okay, I'm sorry to cut you off. You are counseling. And then if they repent, right?

So there's confession and then there's repentance. Those two words are not the same thing. Like some people, myself included, really good at confessing. Right? Man, I'm really sorry I did that. My bad. Tears. Right?

But then repentance is a change of behavior. So is their confession? met with a change of behavior. Now, repentance is a process, you know, so they're not going to change overnight. But are they taking steps in the right direction? Are they talking less when they used to talk more? Are they telling the truth? Are they being more open? Are they being more vulnerable? Are they not doing the thing that they said that they wouldn't do anymore? Like, you want to pay attention to those things. And then as they do that, then you begin to restore trust. And so forgiveness also doesn't equal trusting someone fully again.

No, they send against you. It's not actually wise for you to continue to trust them in that way. And so you need to restructure the relationship. And I would say that depending on how much trust can be restored in the relationship, depends on how much the two of you can be back, reconciled. I love what you said, though. You said a lot. But one of the things that stuck out.

No, seriously, always good. But one of the things that stuck out to me is in the beginning of when you were talking about how we, like, I think what you're essentially saying, when we properly go to God and allow him to search our hearts, we kind of get a clarity of, you know, of our own hearts so that we can go to the person with the offense properly. Yes. Not so skewed with our own offense, not so like, like, because sometimes we can go to people and we're so offended that we're going to go to. people in a wrong way and it just makes reconciliation so hard. But like asking the Lord, like, because I've done that, like, people have not met my idols. And that's why I was offended. And so when I spent proper time with the Lord, it's like, Lord is like, no, you just, you just idolize time with people. And that's not their fault. You need to repent and need to say, like, Preston,

like, why are you not spending time with the Lord? Like, why are you not allowing the Lord to fill that space? And so that was really convicting to me. And I think that we search our hearts in that way. You know, yeah. I have a question, though. Yes, sir. Because, so when you talked about Judas earlier and Jesus' forgiveness for Judas, he did forgive Judas. But he didn't grant Judas the same access that he did, John. Did he forgive him?

Well, not forgive him. Well, he offered him, you know what I'm saying, the morsel of bread. He offered him, like, you know. I was saying, he is on a perdition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not forgiveness in that way. But he walked in love, like, you know what I'm saying with you. But he didn't offer Judas to same access as a John, the disciple that the Bible says that he loved.

And I think a lot of times when we have to walk in forgiveness or walk in love with people who offended us, sometimes it can be hard to kind of gauge what type of access we owe them. Or it's kind of hard to gauge, like, am I not forgiving them? Because do I need to? Like, what is the balance in that? And can I add to that? Because that was going to actually be my question. Because I think sometimes it can seem as if to have evidence of forgiveness,

you have to move super like open-handed. You know what I'm saying? Where you feel like, do I got to text them back to be forgiving? You understand? Yeah. Yeah, because I think you old people love, you don't necessarily owe them access in the same. same way Jesus had access with some of the other disciples.

And so sometimes that's like that's a balance that we have to, you know. Because to me this is, this is, so let me try to summarize it succinctly. So people are like, what are you are saying? I think this is how to think through forgiveness and reconciliation while at the same time, sometimes the way you are trying to practice forgiveness can be confusing to your own emotions. Yes. Whereas like, I don't know if I. I've actually forgiven them because of the way I'm attempting to reconcile.

Is that a basic summary? And then I would want to add to that. Yes. Add on, brother. I want to add on to that. Do your head again. I want to add on to that. That was great.

It's perfect. Because he'd think about people. Yeah. What are the boundaries that we should set in place for our own spiritual health, emotional health? Because some people just don't deserve it access or you're going to live. offended by them or wounded by them or hurt by them. And I think that God being a father, he cares about our emotional. He does.

And so what's the balance and all that? That was a lot. But sorry. No, so it's good. I'm glad we went back there because it takes us back to Matthew 18. And I forgot to say this part. It says like if you're a brother or sister who you've already gone to, you take them to the mentors or the mediators, you've taken them to the church, if they still don't listen,

He says treat them like a Gentile or a tax collector. Come on now. Get out of here. The culture. The context there is for Gentile is that you treat them, you don't treat them like a brother and sister in Christ anymore. Right. So we're not doing Acts 242 anymore. You know, like we're not sharing all things in common.

We're maybe not breaking bread every day in the house together. Like the relationship is. different, right? So I'm not leaning on you in the same ways. And I'm doing that in obedience to Christ, right? And then he says, or treat them like a tax collector. In that culture, they would say, like a tax collector was like a bear. And when you see them coming, you need to run because they were abusive. And so Jesus is like, no, someone sins against you and they do not listen, like continue to, like treat them like a Gentile or a tax collector. And so I think what the principle there is that there are times. And when we need to restructure the relationship because trust has been been broken. And there are even times where we need to end the relationship. And maybe we don't end it like where we never talk to them again, but it's like I just see you at church on Sunday or I see you at the cookout or I see you, you know, at the family event. There's a hand in the room.

And so and things like that. But I do think, and then what I love after that is that Jesus says, whatever you, you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loose in heaven. It's good. It's as if Jesus is saying, whatever, when you follow this process, whatever you in the community, the church come to, whatever conclusion you all reach, like, I'm with you in that. And for me, that has helped me so much because I deal with that guilt of like, I forgive, I think I forgave them, but I'm still not like in relationship with them in the way that we were before.

And so I feel this guilt about it, but then I feel this peace when I go back to that text. Because I know that I didn't make that decision by myself. I made that decision under the council of my pastor. I made that decision under the council of like our friend group or under the council of a counselor. Like I didn't make that decision by myself.

And so I had other people speaking into whether or not it was healthy for me to continue to move forward with that person. And so that is the part that helps me with that guilt. But I do think when we're still trying to figure out whether or not we can trust this person, like we're kind of just practicing, right? And if the person continues to show that they are unsafe, then we should retreat some. I think what's hard, though, particularly for the offender in that, is that they are like, but you said you forgave me.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's like, yeah, I did forgive you. But that didn't hit the reset button on the relationship. You know, they didn't cause me to forget everything that happened. And so for me, I am learning in real time, like what I need to say is like, hey, this is what it means for me to forgive you. So then that's clarifying how much access you have to be. But I also think it's a lot of wisdom in that when God giving those instructions, because I think for the person who's not getting the hint, you're not forgiving me.

It's probably because your behavior hasn't changed. Yeah. And I think one of the reasons why God tells us that excommunication and stuff like that is necessary so that people can actually really come to repentance. Because it's like it's a difference between you not forgiving and you're not being able to walk in harmony because a person's behavior hasn't changed. And so I think us doing that actually helps people behavior. It puts a mirror to them, which I think it's necessary sometimes. I'm glad you said that because that is the goal. Yeah.

Like it's that they would repent. Yeah. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I have two questions. Okay. This is why I rose my hand. Is ghosting sinful? Yes.

Why? Well, because we are people created in God's image who are worthy of dignity and respect. And when we ghost people, meaning we just leave a friendship or a relationship without communicating to them that we're leaving. maybe even why we're leaving, we aren't loving them well. We aren't treating them as someone who is worthy of dignity, honor, and respect. I forgot my second question. Why did you ask that question, babe? Because when she was talking about just that process of reconciliation and boundaries

and all the things, I thought about how I think this is a thing for me. and it's common for me to not want to do all of that. It's just, bye. Like, I think that, and I, I've learned that from

how I was raised and the, the, the, the, the way offense was modeled to me in St. Louis, is somebody,

do you bogus, it's over with. Like, it ain't no, it ain't no conversation. And there's a lot of that that's still in me. And some of,

some of it is, I'm too hurt to even, because to even have the conversation, you have, to even confess weakness. You have to be vulnerable. You have to even admit that you hurt me makes me feel weak.

So it's easier for me to ghost you because that feels strong when it's actually not. It shows how emotionally immature you actually are. You know what I'm saying? And spiritually. And so I just wanted to ask the question because I think it's common. Especially in friend groups for people to just completely just leave with no conversation, no attempt at reconciliation, no. Because I think some relationships are worthy of that work because I think a lot of, I think a lot of friendships could persevere past these things if we're willing to do the work.

I think some marriages could be healthier if we were willing to do the work. But I think when we give up, we potentially give up the joys that could come on the other side of these kinds of things. And I also think that, you know, because if I'm telling them myself, It can also be a form of, yeah, I'm hurt and all the things, but this is also us trying to kind of like insert our own sense of justice. Yeah. Like not talking to that person is like I want to punish that person instead of allowing God to bring justice for me. Yeah.

The silent treatment can be vengeance. Yes, absolutely. I don't got to put a snicker in your tank to be vengeful. But what I can say is, oh, this is. a consequence, you don't get me anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, man, we some jacked up people. We're creative. We are. Very, very creative. Yeah. Can you give us, in closing, I guess just recast the vision, a gospel vision of why we must forgive? Man, I believe that every time we forgive someone, we proclaim the gospel. we put the gospel on display.

We put the mercy of Christ, the compassion of Christ on display, and that when we forgive someone who's offended us, that I think what could happen is that it makes them think, wow, if Preston could forgive me, then maybe God can. You know, if Jackie could forgive me, then maybe God could forgive me.

And I think one of the things that we have to be aware of is that we live in a story that is much bigger than ours, and that the story that God is writing is moving in the direction of redemption. And when we forgive, we put that story on display for people and invite them to be a part of it. And so that is probably the most compelling thing for me when it comes to forgiveness is that, man, every time I forgive someone, I glorify Christ. I lift him high in someone else's eyes. Yeah. That's good.

Well, thank you for this book. Thank you for all the work that you did, the study, the sanctification, the confession. They enduring the spiritual warfare. All the stuff. All of it is a labor of love. I truly believe if we get this stuff in our system, the church will be a better church.

Absolutely. Friendships would be better. relationships would be better. Families will be, like, to me, this isn't, this isn't minor. This is actually very significant. So it's a fly. I forgive them, though.

I appreciate you. Yeah, I appreciate y'all. Thank y'all for having me. No problem. Peace. All right, y'all. Bye. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys,

with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by Hobb, and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.