With The Perrys - Unforgiveness, Raising Kids in the Last Days, and Proud Preachers: A Q&A Episode

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

The Perrys' Q&A episodes are some of your favorites. In this one, the Perrys answer questions from their Instagram followers, covering topics related to evangelism, marriage, parenting, recognition, and forgiveness. How do you know if you are called to evangelize? Is it okay if a husband and wife attend different churches? What if you’re hesitant to have kids and bring them into a broken world? Let’s talk about it.   Scripture references: 1 Peter 3:1-2 Matthew 6:1-2 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yo, what up with y'all? Hi. You didn't know song today? I have nothing. No, no, it's the saints. I do it. It's the saints in the a y'ans. I'm okay.

It's the saints and e'ans. I didn't grow up in church. I don't have natural rhythm. So our dog is dying. Oh, my gosh. And so. Did you really want to start there? Yeah, I can't act like I'm not grieving.

But if you want to do that, just pray for our dog guys. He's not doing well. Okay. Jackie's a little sad about it. For sure I am. All right, we can move on. So we're going to do a Q&A episode. Don't have much to say today.

We're going to answer some of your questions from Instagram. And let's start with a spicy one. Woohoo. I know the Saints at home praying. Touched your dog right now. I mean, he'll either be alive or gone once you get this episode. How to know if you are called to evangelize. It's either that or I literally start crying on this podcast.

I have to be ridiculous. How to know of your call to evangelize. That's somebody's question. Because this person's, one, I don't know if they want to be named. And then their name is weird. Okay. So that's for you How about we do this?

I pray for the dog earlier. Let's pray for the dog. The dog is crazy. Our dog. Let's pray for the dog. That's a part of the problem. Let's pray. We're calling him the dog.

His name is December. He is a part of our family. Yes, he is. We love December. The dog. The month and the dog. We're going to pray for December with the people. Let's pray right now.

Lord, we thank you, God, for December. We prayed already earlier. But we pray right now with our, extended body of Christ, even though this episode is going to come out way before the end. We know that you are God who sees into eternity's past, this future, the present, all the things. You can connect us in prayer right now if you want to because you're the God of everything. And so God, I just pray that you touch his body, that you touch his kidneys, all the things for your glory. In Jesus' name, amen.

So how do you pray to what did you say? How to know if you are called to evangelize? Oh man. So for me, you know, I think, and it's not just evangelism. It's everything when it comes to just spiritual gifts. When you cannot not do something, it's probably because you've been called to it. So when I first became a Christian, I kind of impulsively shared my faith for people. Like it wasn't like a conscious decision that I made. And what was crazy is I wanted to tell this story. in my book. Well, I actually did, and my editor took it out. Yeah, we had a lot of battles. He won that one. But, you know, my auntie did I want to go stay with.

The Lord really deals with her, you know, I believe prophetically. And when I started to live with her, I started this job called ADT, while I went through the door to sell alarm systems. And I got so good at it really fast. I became like a team leader and whatever, so I trained me other people to do it. And so one day I came home, and this is probably like four or five months before I became Christian. And she was like, she was like, how do you get in these people's houses when you're selling these alarm systems? And I was like, yeah, I just kind of make them feel comfortable with me.

I knock on their door. You know, the first step is getting in their house. And then I convinced them to let me do a credit check on their phone. They do that. And then they have to write me a $99 check. And then, you know, that's when I kind of get the sale. She's like, you do all that. And then I was like, yeah.

And then she looked at me, she was like, when the Lord of Savior, you're going to be an evangelist. And I was like, okay. I just thought she was, I thought she was talking crazy at first. And, you know, the Lord later on did. Like I became an evangelist, you know, when I became a Christian. So I do think, you know, it's a part of how God is naturally, why are you? I think God is always going to use us how you uniquely made us. But I think being around the people of God, I think it's their job.

And God will use them to help identify gifts in you. to cultivate those gifts and all the things. And so. But how do you distinguish between? Because I think all Christians are called to evangelize if we are to obey Matthew 28, which is to go therefore make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey all their crisis commanded. And so how does somebody distinguish?

Because I think some people can say, well, I'm not called to the office or I don't the gift of evangelism. Therefore, I'm excluded from having to walk in it like that. I guess how do you distinguish between calling and just the regular spiritual discipline of being an ambassador of Christ? Yeah, absolutely. Because I think we might not have certain spiritual gifts, but it doesn't mean that God doesn't want us to operate in these giftings at times to make disciples. For example, like everybody might not have the spiritual gift of teaching where they're teaching every week. But, you know, you are called to teach your children the gospel. Everybody might not have the spiritual giftings of evangelism,

but it don't mean that God isn't calling you to be obedient to share the gospel with your coworker. And so I do think that some people are called in greater capacities in certain gifts. Some people are giving, you know, God gives them gifts for the edification of the body to reach the world and et cetera. But I think discipleship making, I think that every Christian as they live life, I think they should be operating or at least being obedient. And I think the real thing is really about obedience. Like if you are obedient, you know, God will, God believes you. Awesome.

Yay. Great answer. This is going to be one of the most melancholy episodes we've ever had. Awesome answer. Woo! This person said, if you and your spouse worship and serve in different churches, how do you find balance? Ooh. Man, go ahead and tackle that first, babe.

I mean, you're a man, so I feel like you should lead the way. That's a really good excuse. You should lead this conversation. You should leave a man. You should have a beard. You should leave. I think people with beards answer this question better. Well, some women have beard, so I don't think that's primarily a masculine exclusive. But, no, seriously, lead the way.

Oh, goatees. That was kind of shady. It wasn't. Because I thought about Go ahead. Three people. It's the bugs. There's so many bugs in this house.

It's ridiculous. It flies, babe. We left the door open. What I was going to say? You want to reread it? Yeah, reread the question. If you and your spouse worship and serve in different churches,

how do you find balance? I pick this question because I think there's an underlying potential issue, which is you and your spouse serving and worshiping at different churches, right? And so I think trying to make something work

that probably shouldn't be made to work. Yeah. Now, I'll be objective enough to say that I think if you have spouses that are musicians, like one of the spouses might be working for another church on the band or leading worship, where another spouse might be doing admin at another church. Like I think I could see how, like,

like working, like when it's a vocation, how that can make being a part of the same local church more complex and more complicated. But I also wonder if it's worth the cost of the disunity, especially when children are involved. Yeah, for sure. I don't necessarily know how helpful it is for children to not see mommy and daddy worship together underneath the same leadership. hearing the same sermons, serving with the same people. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think, you know, when I heard the question, I thought about it, you know, of course, to the lens of a husband and the father and the leader of my home and all of the things. I think it's hard. It can be hard to lead the home when you're both parties are being led differently from different spiritual leaders. Because I think even when we look at the scriptures, we see how. the qualifications of an elder, it kind of matches.

Like the home and the church is so interconnected in such a way where, you know, if she's getting leadership about something spiritually and she, you know, your leadership is leading hymns about something that's differently, differently spiritually, like I can see how that can create a clashing in the, in the marriage. because one party might, you know, say, I don't really agree with your pastor when it comes to family, when it comes to his theology on this and that and that. And so I do think that it can potentially, like you said, disrupt the unity. But I also think that, you know, I think in the same way, like a family has to be united in the home. I think they should be united in, like, in the church.

I think it's a witnessing tool when the kids grow up. seeing their mom and their dad worship together, you know, obey authority together, you know. Like, I think that, I think that really plays into how a kid, you know, cultivates, you know, just an honor for the church. And so in the same way, I think it can easily, we say like, you know, we say like if a home was divided, if my dad lived over here and my mom lived over here, how can we successfully? Well, let's say they don't even have children because we don't know. what if people see working at different churches in the same sense of working at different jobs?

I work at AT&T. He works at T.J. Max. Really weird examples. But what if they see it as like, no, we're just working two different places. Why does it matter that we work at the same space when it's a church? But it doesn't matter if I work a 9 to 5 in a secular space. Because it's not a secular space. It's a place with a lot of spiritual implications and how God wants to grow us together spiritually.

And so I think now you gave the example about the musician stuff. I've known couples like that. It was like, man, this church is still paying me well to be on keys and you love the teaching here. But I think one, I think it can potentially just speak to like how connected y'all are. are like you know what I mean because if y'all are connected I think vision should align when it comes to what like and and also think that we have to challenge ourselves because the motivating thing cannot be money the motivating thing cannot be you know resources as if God cannot provide the same resources if we all went to the same church like he can provide a different way and so I don't

think that we should look at our spiritual growth in the same way we look at secular spaces because it's just not the same. You know what I'm saying? Like God can, he can provide. Like, I think he honors his glory. He honors the home more than he, you know, wants us to, like, think about money. And I think, because I don't want to use the word good.

I don't want to use the word healthy. But I do think a mindful leader will actually push you in the direction of making sure that your family is united in the same. spiritual location, right? Yeah. So let's say hypothetically, you, let's say you as a man, you work at a church and your pastor's

like, hey, man, where your wife at? Oh, she work at a so-and-so Baptist down the street. Why? Mm-hmm. Yeah, leadership care. Why? Like, let's process through that. Like, is it a money thing?

Is it a disunity thing? Like, let's at least have the conversation because I don't know if that's even healthy for your marriage. You know what I'm saying? And to piggyback off what you're saying, too, on top of that, I think if I have, if I'm a pastor, right, and I have a man who goes to my church and his wife goes to another church, I really don't know you apart from your wife. I don't know how you love your wife. I don't know how you serve your family.

And in the same way, I think if I'm a pastor, my congregation should be able to assess that I'm the husband of one wife, that I serve my. this is one of the reasons why I'm qualified as an elder. And so, like, it affects how I'm able to even call him in leadership if I see spiritual gifts in him. I can't call you the spiritual leadership in our church. And I don't know. I'm never around you and your wife. Right.

And so I think, you know, if the church is a community in that way, I think it can kind of not function properly all the way. And I think it might be some exceptions. I'm not trying to speak very dogmatically about this situation. But I think, yeah, I just think it could affect. answer your question, we answered another question. You said, if you and your spouse worship and serve in different churches, how do you find balance? I just don't know if that's worth finding balance in, honestly. That really would be my wisdom. I think y'all need to get together

and work towards unifying underneath the same church as best you can. And do not let money be the the defining factor. It is a factor. It is not the defining factor. The defining factor is where God is guiding you because he might lead you both to serve in a church where one of you are serving and the other one is sitting and receiving and you may make less money, but your marriage is stronger. You know what I'm saying? You may make less money, but your wisdom is wider. You may make less money, but you're actually moving in the direction of faithfulness and maturity. And so that is always God's greater goal is to conform us into the image of Christ. And if we are seeking his kingdom, all the other stuff are going to be added. And so I just think unity is the goal. And I just want to quickly say, I'm glad

you reread the question. The whole balance thing, I think it's just hard to, maybe hard to find balance. And that's exhausting, practically speaking. Yeah. Like, oh, let me drop you. I'll see you at to let me meet you at the church. I meet you at the third service. If you work in the first service, even gas money, y'all, y'all, y'all's probably spending more money on gas than you got to. Yeah, because I think, I think some people might hear,

like, are you all you saying this is sinful? This is wrong. It's not sin. It's a wisdom issue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's a sin issue. I do think it's a wisdom issue. But when it comes to balance, you know, realistically, you all are working with two different weights.

Like, that weight isn't the same weight that your church is. So, like, y'all coming into a home with different weights. I mean, it's going to be unbalanced in some senses because y'all are, y'all have a different framework about, you know, what you're learning and all the things. And so the best way is to be unified.

Amen. Yay. Good answer. Good answer. This person said, young and newly, the, um,

what's that thing that beeps? The smoke alarms? Can you change that today? Yes. Because it's been beeping like every day. And every day I'm like... You know, I don't hear it. Yeah, I'm like...

They'd be happy. Like people, I don't hear the beeping on the, with the car seat. I don't hear noises like that. I know. But I keep hearing and I'm like... Sorry. I'll change it.

Today? Today. Cool. Young and newly married. How to navigate deciding to have kids. in the world we live in. So what I hear underneath this response is a hesitancy to bring kids into the world in light of the state of the world.

The world is a mess. The world itself, the actual earth is a mess. We got floods and earthquakes. I've had this question a lot. And things like that. And then the world as a system is a mess. You got pornography, you got lust, you got sexual sin, immorality, pride, anger, warfare, all the stuff. So the earth and the world, it's all a lot.

And so I think it can be scary to say, why would I want to bring a little innocent little baby human being into that? I think a lot of times when we think about Matthew 28, the Great Commission, make disciples of all nations baptized in them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God is telling us to produce other Christians like ourselves so that the world can be not, not, you know, better holistically, but so that he can call people in the world, out of the world into our family. And I think a lot of times when we think about make, we think about just sharing the gospel with other people and we don't think about making babies, like actually making human means and raising them up into faith so we can shoot them out in the world so that they

can't impact this world. And I think we should be motivated when, you know, when we think about the command that God gave Adam and He be fruitful and multiply so that his glory can be seen in the earth through human beings. We have to look at that through the context of Christianity, too, and Christians. Like, you know, and so I remember when some friends of ours was talking about moving or something like that out of the country. And he was like, no. Y'all need to stay here. We need Christians in America. Yeah.

Especially black Christian families. Yeah, yeah. We need Christians in America. We need your children to be raised up in America, you know, as a witness. And so I do think that we have to look at, we can't allow fear and this world to intimidate us because this world has always been sinful. I mean, and, you know, people argue about how this world is more sinful than past generations. I mean, every generation was sinful. Yeah, to me, the Roman.

Empire was another level. Y'all going to a building to see people die. Yeah, and y'all was playing soccer with decapitated heads. Now, mind you, I do think social media is a bit of a coliseum in our hands. Yeah, it's more of a social crucifixion. And dare I say, some of these video games is us being able to kill people without killing people. Yeah. But whatever.

Yeah, yeah. That's just me. And so, yeah, I think that's some of the best advice I can give. It's like, man, like bringing children into this world is a way in which we fight against the evil in this world. Yeah, I think raising actual disciples in your home is a way to help push back against evil. Obviously, there is no guarantee that your children will be Christians. obviously there's because a lot of these kids that was raising Christian homes are the strong they have the

strongest form of godliness I have ever seen in my life so I do think we have to raise Christian kids that know they're not born Christian they must be given the gift of faith and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit but that's neither here nor there I think we have to understand that raising disciples in our homes is a way to push back against the darkness I will also say what you said is that we don't make decisions out of fear as Christians. And so I think fear is a legitimate feeling, but it isn't a feeling that we obey. And second, I think it's first Peter, we addressed this in one of the scriptures where Peter tells women in particular, do not fear what is fearful. Meaning feel it, but don't obey it.

Yes, it's scary. I get it, but obey the Lord. Three, I think you will be amazed how parenting will get the worldliness out of you. That's good. Because the world is scary and that same world is in you. And so there is so much of parenting that is also the Lord disciplining you into his image. And so I would also lean into what God might be wanting to do through you and birthing kids through you. Yeah.

And also, too, I would say that's his will. Because that's also the thing, like, is that it's will for your life. And also to what I'll say for people who have a fear of bringing children into this world because, you know, this world is sinful and all of these things. It's like you have an opportunity to raise children up in the ways of the Lord and to shoot them out in the world is a way for God to continue to preserve this evil world. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Right, right?

Like, because we are the salt of the world, you know what I'm saying? And so like us being like, you should want to produce more salt. You know what I said? More preservation for God to be merciful to this world Because when he looks at the children of God, there is mercy there. And so. Yay.

Girl, would you stop this. Yay after every answer? No. Good answer. You should want my affirmation. I just feel like you push him. Hey, man. We've booked all the people.

We can't. It's either this a grief. What do you want me to do? But do what you got to do bad. You're so pretty. That man does his own life support. I didn't laugh at him. I laughed at the way you looked.

How should a wife support her husband when he is spiritually struggling slash not leading? I'm going to throw in all these to you first. Come, bro. But I'm curious. That's fly, bro. Where am I buck of salt gun? I'm curious as to how you believe it is best. like how does a man how would a man best receive support when he's not spiritually strong or not leading well?

Man, you know, I would love to to talk to that person who asks that question to get that definition of not leading well. Okay. Because it's slash spiritually struggling too. Spiritually struggling. And I still, that helps, but I still want to to ask him like, like what does that mean? Like, is he not reading his Bible? Is he not providing?

You know, I think it can encompass a lot. But I do think that we have to look at everybody, not according to necessarily their titles, but them just being human beings made in the image of God. And we have to ask ourselves, what is he not believing about himself? What is he not believing about God that's affecting him in that way? And a lot of times, especially in a marriage, our struggle is very, you know, connected. Like, you know, there might be some things that he needs, you know, love languages that he's not being affirmed in. Maybe he's not a man in this season where he knows how to take initiative.

Maybe he's a man that needs to be reminded of who he is, encouraged. Maybe he's a man who needs to be encouraged to seek, you know, godly friendships, godly male leadership, discipleship. And, you know, it can be a lot. You know, I think a lot of men

are cool with church right now. They just kind of feel like church caters to women. And so that might be playing part of his spiritual, like a daze with this. It could be a lot of things. I think one way is to be investigative. So curious.

So very curious. Ask some questions. And don't ask some questions. of irritation or accusations, but ask some questions because you love him and you're more concerned about his soul than you are what he's not doing in the home. Like, love him well in this season and say, like, you know, why are you showing up in this way? I care about you. I care about your relationship with the Lord and all of the things, you know. But then also, too, like, affirm him, affirm him in all the things that he is doing good.

Like I think affirmation really does go a long way. I think people don't care what you know and say they know that you care. And I think that if he's consistently reminded of all the things that he's doing bad and not affirmed in all the things that he's doing good, it can discourage him and it can make him not receive you well when you do come to him with problematic things. And so, but also too, I want to just say this. You know, one thing that I've noticed in a lot of women doing Q&A's,

that shows or whatever, this question has come up. And I'm not saying this is what this person's saying, but a lot of women feel like their husbands aren't equipped to leave because they don't read the Bible as much as them. They don't know as much scripture. And I think a lot of times, especially in church settings, women can kind of absorb a lot of Christian content. But I will be more concerned of how well he applies,

what he knows more than what he knows. Interesting, yeah. You know, because I think a lot of times when we think about leadership, especially in the West where we live at, we can put a high emphasis on how much information we're obtaining, how much orthodoxy we're obtaining, and we don't put that much emphasis on orthopraxy, how much we're putting this stuff into practice.

And so if he knows eight scriptures and you know 60, but he applies those eight scriptures to his life well, he's still equipped to lead you. That's good. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that's what people have to understand. It's like it's not about how much a person knows or how much a person is kind of digesting.

Is he like applying what he knows and leading his family well? And so just make sure you're looking at the right measures of what real leadership is. Oh, my gosh. Amen. It was a gnat. She wasn't irritated at me, y'all. Yeah, it was trying to crawl down my face.

There's a scripture somewhere. It tells women to be a certain kind of way to unbelieve in husbands. Oh, yeah. I know what you're talking about. Likewise, wives be subject to your own husband so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be one without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Yeah, that's First Peter three. I think really a very simple principle here is that as a wife, sometimes your character is more persuasive than your words.

And I think we want so badly to just talk him into a certain way of being. You know, we think a lot of words, a lot of sentences, a lot of paragraphs. We think even the conversation about being curious is necessary and helpful. But I think that that should be, that should come after being prayerful. That should come after being kind. That should come after being considerate. That should come after being. I think you have to be more than you speak.

Yeah. And so I think that will go a long way. and the reason why that's a very spiritual way to go about is because it feels foolish. It actually feels inefficient to just be respectful. That's going to win him. Yeah. To just be holy. That's going to draw him.

And I think the way of our flesh says, no, I got to, I got to shake him up. I got to like shame him into being a certain kind of person. I got to argue him into being a certain kind of way. I got to da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And it's like scripture is always offering us mechanisms that aren't natural. It's offering us things and mediums of being that require faith and require the Holy Spirit's power. And so I think in addition to everything Preston said, I think obedience to First Peter three here is what you would be called to do. is be subject to your own husband so that even if some don't obey the word they may be one

without one by the conduct of their wives when they see your respectful and pure conduct they might move different yeah first first corinthian seven starting at the 13 verse it says if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever and he consists to live with her she should not divorce him for an unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife and i just think that's why very powerful. Yeah. And we don't know if this husband is a believer or not a believer. It comes across as he's a believer for her to say he's spiritually struggling.

But I think the principle is the same, is how you show up has a big effect on how he will respond. And I think my encouragement is how that will purify you. You know, because I think all human beings struggle with control. But I think the Lord wants to deliver us from that. And when he puts us with people where we want to control them and we can't control them, the Lord is delivering for us from that. You know what I'm saying?

When the Lord is like, pray, just pray. That feels like I don't actually have control. He's like, right, I do. So pray, wait on me, trust me. And when I tell you to speak, speak. When I tell you to ask that question, ask that question. When I tell you to chill out, chill out. You know what I'm saying?

Like the Lord will, or also praying for it. praying praying outside of you. Lord, give him dreams. Lord provide him with conversations with his friends.

Lord, help our pastor to see where he is and da, da, da, da, da. Like, also don't do that. Like, I wouldn't, I would be careful

to, like, go around him. Because you know how people will be, like, you know, soul food where she went to the dude to get the dude the job and then he felt some type of way about it. Yeah, yeah. So, like, I'm careful.

Like, if I see you in a space, unless it's a problem, problem, I'm not fend to go to Phil or I'm not fend to go to so-and-so and be like check on Preston unless it's a problem.

Yeah. Because I feel like I should give you the space to say you should reach out to Phil. Yeah. You should reach out to Brian. You should reach out to Eric because I just don't even want to, I don't know, it can feel disrespectful.

Yeah, yeah. Unless you was like in a really heavy space because I have done it. Would I feel like, oh, he's not going to reach out to these people? Yeah, yeah, that's good. And I also think that, you know, I don't want to place blame on either party,

But I think the reality is, you know, how we show up in our marriage can encourage a person to walk in their role and can discourage a person how they walk in their role. And so you probably have to ask yourself, have I showed up in a way where I'm honoring him? Because dishonor can discourage a man to just give up, you know? And so you probably don't realize all the ways in which your snarkiness and you're. and your ways or whatever as you show up in the house has just kind of let the air out of his leadership. Maybe. You know, that's what I'm saying.

And I think the same way can, you know, be applied to women. It's like when a woman is in, when a man is in leading, it can affect how you show up and you respect him and how you submit to him. And it's like, I don't want to come home and submit to a man who's yada, yada, yada. And so the way you guys show up with one another can encourage or discourage. You know what I'm saying? So just make sure that you are being honorable and leaving him without an excuse. You know what I'm saying?

So that God can honor you. That's good. And honoring him. Yay. Good answer. You are on one today. Is that a problem? No.

These flies are a problem. You want to work through that? No. No, I don't feel no way. It's just. This is the way you said it. This person said, how do I not get consumed by wanting recognition and praise as a preacher? Come on, preacher.

Come on. I said, I want you to lead every answer because it helps me. No, when you preach, your little nose be sweating. You know, Whitney Houston got a little sweat lip. You'd be having a little nose. That's when you know you were a real preacher when your nose starts sweating like that and it get real shiny. Every time your nose gets shiny, I know you're going to go in. So I'm going through a trial and you perceive.

see to criticize me. I'm not criticizing you. I'm saying you be going in where it makes your nose sweat profusely. This is the second time that you compare me to a cocaine addict. This is the second time you've done that. No, first of all. I'm going through a trial. James was. Jay's said, blessed is the man who remains steadfast. I am having a difficult time being steadfast and you're saying I'm a no first of all. You said I sweat like a cocaine addict while I'm communicating God's word. Whitney Houston sweated like that. Whitney Houston sweated like that before she was on that Book of Sugar. She was on it before she even got popping.

Did you not see the documentary? That's not true. Before she was on that. Did you watch a documentary? I saw a clip of her in church, a old clip of her in church, and she was not on that bug of sugar when she was singing in the choir. And that little step. That's because she had a robe on.

She was hot. How do you know that? She did. How do you know that? She had a robe on. How do you know they had? their air condition probably was on Antarctica. This is the most arbitrary conversation.

I'm just saying, no. This is profoundly ridiculous. I'm giving you a compliment. I'm saying you be going in. That I look like a cocaine addict. No, I didn't say that. When she was sweating, she didn't look like she was on cocaine. She just looked like she was hot.

Okay. Okay, answer the question. He said, how do I not get consumed by wanting recognition and praise about being a teacher, preacher. You want me to start for real? Yes. Okay. You irritated me.

I'm holding on. I think it's when it comes to any spiritual gifts. I think you have to consistently remind yourself that it's a gift. Like, this is the reason why, when it talks even about our salvation, when it says they were saved by grace through faith, for it is a gift, at least any man can boast, right? And so like it is very hard for us to boast in something that was given to us. And I think when it comes to preaching, I think it can be harder because people vocally praise you so much, you better preach. And they gash you.

And that's just one of those gifts that consistently give you public affirmation. And so it's harder not to be haughty when it comes to the spiritual gift of teaching that it is a ministerial. because ain't nobody gassing you like that. Anybody's saying, man, you organizing this well. It's not the same. It's not the same. But at the end of the day, it's still just a gift that God has given us to, you know, to advance the body of Christ.

And then also, too, you have to understand why people praise you when it comes to teaching. Because, like, rhetorical gifts, it's not something that people operate all. often. And so a lot of times people are praising you really just because they can't do it. And they don't do it well. And so it's not even like you're tight. It's just they're impressed about you doing something that they don't operate in often. You know what I'm saying? And so like, don't let it go to your head. You know what I'm saying? The same way you don't let the criticism go to your heart. Like you really have to remind yourself that it's a gift and that God gave it to you just to edify his body, you know? I think that's the best advice I can.

give. I think there's a lot of scriptures, but one that has been a really strange ministry to me is Matthew 6, where Jesus says, beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. The reason that that has challenged me is because in essence, Jesus is saying, when you do things for human praise, that praise that you received was the reward that you're going to get. So you wanted praise, cool, you got it. But that act of worship that you gave because it wasn't for me,

you won't be rewarded for it when you see me. And so I think it can, I think knowing that reorientes whose praise is actually the most real, most lasting, most solid, most true that would obviously be the Lord's. And so it just should shift how you move. I think also getting underneath that neediness, I think we all were created to be affirmed. You know what I'm saying? I remember reading Tim Keller saying that one of the one of the things that we experienced in the fall when we lost intimacy with God like losing I can't explain how you said losing intimacy with God meant that we are always desiring to hear well done all of us we all want to be justified we all want to hear you are good at that you are I see you and so some of that desire for

recognition is natural, I think it just drives us to do very unhelpful things. And I think it is always really, really scary when we use God's word and ministry and religious activities to steal from the Lord. Yeah. I think we should be on guard from that. And so just the way I try to put it to death is one. I think trying to be humble in real life all the time helps you to be humble when you preach. That's good. You can't think that I can be proud, proud, 24-7, and then this is going to be the one activity where I can be humble. You have to practice humility everywhere with your kids, with your spouse, with the person at Starbucks, with like that cultivating a lifestyle of humility

allows you to actually be functionally humble in those spaces where you should be the least humble. Yeah, and it will avoid us from operating in false humility. When we try to attack the reality of pride and not just the appearance of it, I think then when you show up, you don't want to appear like you're proud, so you operate in this false humility. Sure. But if you're attacking pride consistently in your own heart, it's like, this is real, right? You know.

And then I think being honest with the Lord, like I think we're afraid to tell him that you want his glory. Say it. Like I said this before. Like it's been plenty of times before I teach where I'm like, you know, Lord, I feel excited. because I feel like I'm about to receive something from these people and the activity of preaching that makes me feel good about myself. That makes me feel worthy. That makes me feel special.

That makes me feel important. Help me. I've had to say that to the Lord mid-preach where I've said some got a certain kind of response and I feel myself feeling myself and I immediately in the moment like, Lord, help me. Where I've had to eat. even pull back on my articulation of the word to even calm the people down so they can stop praising. Do you know what I'm saying? Like even being mindful of how my cadence and my approach

to articulation is driving the praise I'm getting. So I might become more boring in the moment just to guard my own self. We don't talk about that. That's good. And so I think when you're a communicator and a skill communicator, I think you have to think through things like that. That's good. That's good. We can talk about a lot. a lot more because I do want to have a conversation about the art of communication one day. Yeah. And what's crazy is that's really good and that's really helpful. I kind of want to just ask you questions, but I don't know if you have time.

But I just remember feeling that way also too when I started to release evangelism videos. I remember feeling this, I just received, all the videos had a lot of views and I just remember receiving a lot of praise. And I remember one time I went out, if I'm being honest, the affirmation of me and was in the forefront of my head and the people that I was talking to. And so I started to, I started to kind of change the way I responded to people on the streets or whatever because I'm thinking about how people are going to say, man, you respond to this person will. And it started to just kind of distort the way I did evangelism. And so now I'm not talking to this agnostic freely because

I'm worried about like how, you know what I'm saying? And so like I do think that we just have to watch our own hearts. And so I remember. remember having moments like that where I didn't really go in. Like this is a whole human being in front of me. When I did, I had the temptation to go in without I say, Lord, help my pride. I know how to respond to people quickly in the moment. I know how to evangelize to the loss, you know, but I don't want to do it for the praise of men because it robs your glory. You know what I'm chasing the affirmation of men.

And the Lord resists the proud. Yeah. He does. and he gives grace to the humble. And it's a snare. I think that's a part of what helps me fight it. Is that when you give yourself over to delighting in the praise of people, people say it, but the criticism hurts that much more.

And I think in God's providence and in his discipline of us, he allows that criticism to touch us to remind us that they don't love you that much. Trust me. Yeah. Can we just talk about that real quick? I think as Christians, we have to understand that we live in a very, very sinful world where even the church will be used, the same church that praise you, the enemy will use, quote unquote, church folks. Like church folks are the ones who say it crucify Jesus. And so to even put your hope in the praise of men is setting yourself up for destruction.

drive you insane. It literally will. Like, you know what I'm saying? And so like when people, people, people look at the scripture when Jesus says, if the world hated me, they'll hate you also. And forget, it was low key the people of God. It wasn't like the most sinful of sinners out there. It was like the people of God who came for Jesus.

And so in the same way, you don't put your hope in the praise of church folks because five years from now those same people who was like preach girl preach preach preach man they could be like cancel him cancel her and so just don't put your hope in it yeah so just put pride to death in every every area confess honestly with the lord have it in the forefront of your mind that the recognition and the affirmation affirmation that you desire you will receive keep your your focus and your attention on the fact that if you are faithful, one day you will hear well done and it will be the truth because God said it. Yeah.

And so I think that has to drive everything we do. Any gems on forgiveness? That's what they said. Any gems on forgiveness. I forgot to clap. Yay! Yay! We answered another question.

Yay. Cool. Any gems on forgiveness? Any gems on forgiveness? A heart that forgives, it's a heart full of love. One new night, I want to love everybody. I hate the vibrato. I hated it.

I absolutely hate it. Totally free from the shame of the past. I got to let it go. Tell us your history with that song. Why are you trying to make me go there, babe? You sang it. It's not holding me. Preston.

I don't even know. Tell us your history. You tell us. I don't remember it off. I don't remember it, actually. I'd be forgetting drama. I'd be, like, trauma would be making me forget things. I don't remember it.

I just had a hard time forgiving a lot of people in my life and that song about forgiveness. I don't even know the name of it. Is Kevin LeVar a heart that forgives? A heart that forgives or whatever. And I remember one time I was. really going through some spiritual stuff, some of our spiritual leaders. And I was crying and I was going through some stuff and trying to forgive some people in our past. And Jackie, I didn't even see Jackie operating the music. As soon as I heard the music start playing in the background,

I said, Jackie didn't put this song on. I said, she over here trying to be a wife got me all. The industry of music. I'll just be rapping now. Go ahead. Yeah, no, I think. I think, you know, that song menaced to me because, you know, like forgiveness is hard, you know, when you have been wounded by people who were not supposed to wound you, who've hurt you that was supposed to protect you, who, you know, who you had trust in and who you had hope in, and they let you down more than once. It's hard to bring your, your, your, you know, yourself to a place to put yourself in the same position to allow that to happen to me again. That's really hard.

And I think when it comes to forgiveness, I think not only does God honor it and he does not honor when we don't forgive, but we need to forgive. Because God has always used people to glorify him, to glorify him, to. to speak life into the lives of others. And I think what unforgiveness does, it prevents us from being healed because the same type of people that wounded you, God is going to use those,

God is going to use people to heal you. And so I think the enemy's goal is to prevent us from being in a community, to prevent us from being open, vulnerable, you know, and, you know, like, and so we won't open up again to be hurt again, but our opening up prevents us from being healed. And so we just stay that way.

We just stay that way. And this is the reason why I feel like people, you know, damage other people in ministry. It's because you do a ministry wounded instead of just doing ministry scarred. You know what I'm saying? And I think God wants us, he doesn't care about us having scars, but he doesn't want us to have the wounds that is inflicted on us by offensive. and unforgiveness, he wants us to heal from those wounds. And so, you know, healing really does, it really is for you, you know. Yeah, I think forgiveness is a very, I think it's hard for everybody. It ain't like it's just hard for me. But I do think the more sensitive you are,

the more fragile you are, the more easily offended you are, then I think forgiveness can be, a task. So I'll just spout out some stuff that I've learned and I'm learning. One, unforgiveness is profoundly egotistical and that sounds insensitive to say, but it's true, especially in light of the cross. When you consider that we have been forgiven of so much and we are offended in comparison by so little, then it really is arrogant to withhold what God has freely given us because of Christ. Two, forgiveness is not a feeling, it's a decision. I think so many of us withhold forgiveness because we're waiting to feel not mad anymore.

We're waiting to feel compassion. we're waiting to feel gracious when it's like, nah, like I have to just decide to release you of that debt even if I'm still hurt by what you did. Yeah. Which means then that forgiveness

is also almost always a constant process of deciding. That's good. Because when I see you or when I remember you or when I dream about you if a story comes up and I feel that anger and I feel that angst and I'm reminded of that debt that you ain't never say sorry for I'm reminded of that thing that you took from me I'm reminded of that thing that you said to me I have to decide again and so I think we think that we can forgive like the Lord the Lord be on some I do that thing to see forgiveness you know I forget you past

present future cool I got to keep I got to keep I got keep I got keep doing that I gotta keep forgiving until I feel freed from, I guess, the burdens of holding that thing. Four, I think some of our unforgiveness is due, it's sin, but some of it is also due to our humanity in that we are made in the image of God, so we are justice-oriented people. And so some of that is we know that when people do bad things, they deserve a consequence. We know that. That's literally because you're made like God, you know, oh, justice has to be served. Yeah. But another thing is we have to reflect back on the cross.

It is either their sins have been paid for on the cross because of repentance and faith if they are Christians or it will be paid for in hell. So justice will be served. That is why you can release that debt. Yeah. Yeah. That's applying the gospel to forgiveness. Absolutely. And when we think about justice in that way, we were.

You was cold? Yeah, I was. Okay. We rarely think about God's justice. justice as it relates to us. It's like we deserve justice too. Like for, you know, the ways we wrong people, the ways we sinned against God. And it's just real easy to have way more grace for us and our offenses than we have when people offend us. And I think meditating on the fact that I've been freely forgiven by a God of justice and I'm forgiven to the person of Jesus Christ,

it's hard to receive that same word for somebody else. But you know, but you're not. And It's true. You have to meditate on that. So I've had family members. You know them. And I had to say, man, they're claiming to be in Christ now. They're actually covered by the same blood. They're actually forgiven by the same God. Even though they're offensive directly, like, affect me. They're forgiven. And so I have to walk. I think God has a problem when we refuse to treat people how he's treating them. It's like he's my son and you still treating them like an enemy because you feel away. But I'm not treating you like an enemy. me for all the things you've done to me. And so, like, it's hard. It's very hard. Because I think, I think how you handle offense truthfully, I'm speaking for me. I'm speaking for me. It's for me.

I'm saying. What is for me is for me. How you handle offense reveals your real maturity. That is. That's good. I'm immature. Like, I'm going to say it. No.

No. No. Seriously. No. I know a lot of Bible. I think the Lord has given me wisdom. I be navigating life as best I can. But you offense?

I do not. I don't do that well. You're about to encourage me. No, I'm your husband. This is one of the things that I worked with you the most. I worked with you the most. Listen to me. I be telling young men that I disciple, I'm like, look,

be encouraged at your wife's growth because your growth is tremendous. tremendous. You have grown so much in this area because 2014, 2015. Because when I say my cut off spirit is strong. Strong. Oh, cool. Ben. Bodybuilder. Awesome.

You move like that? Weird? Mm-hmm. Oh, what you do? Where's the scissors? It's like, dang, man, you can't do that. I didn't told you so many times, man, you can't do that. But I mean, you, like the way you bear with people now, the way you choose to forgive now, the way you choose to be humble, like you, like, and I'd be saying, it'd be hard.

Oh, man. The little nose start sweating yet. No, I'm just playing. I'm just saying. How many offenses do I need to absorb in one conversation? I'm just joking. The nose will be sweating. Okay.

Only when you preach. My nose never sweats, actually. It doesn't. That's a fear. You've grown tremendously. you have. I think the point I'm trying to make is how we deal with offense is a really strong barometer of our spiritual maturity.

Yeah, for sure. It's not necessarily the things that we rank. Like, oh, I know a lot of Bible. Awesome. But how are you dealing with it? And I will say in this season, it's like a lot of wins and a lot of losses because there's just been a lot of relational,

conflict. And I think the way you were cultivated plays a part in that. Yeah, for sure. We've said this before, but it's like my mother didn't, doesn't forgive, she cut off. So that's all I knew. And even when I was growing up, when we had conflict, we never worked through it. And so it was only when I got married that I started to, and I'm still weak in the area, but started to develop the stamina for hard conversations. or the stamina for hard seasons. Where sometimes I think some of us, especially if you had abandonment or rejection,

even difficulty feels like preeminent abandonment. And so it feels like, let me cut this off before you cut me off. And so I just think we have to figure out how to do offense, forgiveness, well if we want to do community and godliness well. Yeah, it kind of plays into the conversation we get on tour about emotion and idolatry. Like when our emotions are idols, like we obey our emotions more than we obey the Lord. And sometimes it's way easier to sit in that offense than it is to have a hard conversation than it is to just forgive and just, you know, it's way easier. And truly, the biggest idol is ourselves.

Yes. Because, because. You set up for this. I know it's going to be good. No, because we don't understand that sometimes unforgiveness is us trusting ourselves to protect ourselves. We want to be our own refuge. And it's hard when you read through the scriptures, especially the Psalms, and they are saying, Lord, you are a safe tower, you are a refuge, you are this, you are that.

And so the Lord is over here requiring you to trust him, release people of that debt, and just trust that he got you. but even him having you doesn't mean he won't protect you from the pain. It means he'll sustain you in it. That's so good. And that's the difficult part of the Christian faith is he's like, you're going to be hurt. Yeah. You're going to be betrayed. You're going to be lied on.

You're going to be persecuted. Look at my son. He was the holiest being who has ever existed to live in this earth and he endured it because he loved me more. Mm-hmm. You get what I'm saying? That's good. So if Jesus, if Jesus had relational conflict, if Jesus was lied on, if Jesus had to deal with offenses, if Jesus was treated a certain kind of way, why do you think you will

get a lesser kind of lot in life? But here's the thing, though, babe. Do you understand what I'm saying? This is the thing. But I think some people don't really understand the forgiveness of God. One of the things that I've noticed for people who deal with unforgiveness, a lot of those people deal with shame, right? And the reason why they deal with shame is because they fundamentally don't understand what forgiveness is for themselves. Correct. And so this is the reason why it's

hard for them to understand what forgiveness looks like with other people. It's like you don't even know how forgiveness looks like when it comes to your life. You can't accept that God has forgiving you for the thing that you did last year. And so it's going to be very hard for you to walk in forgiveness with other people because you don't even walk in forgiveness. You don't even walk in forgiveness with yourself. And so we have to, we have to like reshape. Excuse me. Huh? Go ahead. We have to reshape the way we, we think about forgiveness and look at forgiveness from a bit like forgiveness first has to start at the cross. It first has to say, man, we, we serve it. Like we have to believe it, not just theology, but our hearts have to believe it. No, I have been

forgiven. My sins have been thrown in a sea of forgiveness and we have to meditate on that thing, that God is not treating me according to what I did, but according to who I am in Jesus. And then I think that's when we'll be able to walk in true forgiveness with other people. Amen. Yay. Bye. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride.

Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by hop, and music by swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.