With The Perrys - Urban Apologetics

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

As it is in any culture, there are unique belief systems that spring up in response to the distinct experiences of people within a community. Oppression and/or racism in America and in the church has led to the formation of cults and black religious groups such as Hebrew Israelites, Moorish Temple of Science, and the Nation of Islam. What is central to each of these groups is a disdain for the Christian faith and its Christocentric teachings. Eric Mason, the editor of Urban Apologetics: Restoring Black Dignity with the Gospel joins Jackie and Preston to offer wisdom on how the church can equip itself to answer the questions that these growing religious groups are asking.  Urban Apologetics Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey Saints and my beloved aint. What's up with y'all? How are you today? I don't know where you are. If you're in your Kia, your Chevy. Or your bins. Or that. The Saints got bins.

Yeah, they do. Or, you know, you washing dishes with a rag or with a sponge. I'm not sure. You know, we got a dishwasher that I don't like using our dishwasher. And I love using our dishwasher. I don't know why you don't. Because it feels as if I low-key have to wash the dishwash. to put them in the dishwasher.

It feels counterproductive. You don't. All you do is just spray it down a little bit. We've had this conversation before. All you do is spray it down a little bit. I might as well add some soap and just just going to go ahead do it. It's so time consuming, man. I guess.

I just might as well just clean them myself and then put them on the side and everything. Whatever. But I get it anyway. How are you? You've been having problems with pollen? Pollitt is evil. You think so? It's really evil.

You've been struggling. Like I don't understand why God had to live. like we're not going to blame god we not we're not going to be like adam that's what we're not going to do hello it's just i hate sprained because he has provided allegra there is a ram in the bush a ram at waldreins in the name of clarendon d whatever man it's just it's just it's such a horrible season for me my throat itching i don't know what that banging sound is coming from jesus um but yeah my throat be itching my eyes be itching and I'm just like, what is happening? Yeah, you look a little crackish.

Whatever, dog. Don't see, I look, don't talk to me like that. He's looking a little crackish. Anywho, we had the, we've been having, you know, guests this time around. And today we have a special guest who's listening to our foolishness right now. I'm excited about this guest because you should be. Yeah, man. If anybody, anybody that knows me personally have heard me talk about this,

man, probably once or twice. As you know, I love apologetics. I love engaging with different worldviews and I love learning about different worldviews and evangelism. And so this guy, man, he has challenged me and inspired me so much in my Christian faith and my Christian walk.

And so our special guest today is Eric Mason. Yeah, let's do tongue applause. He shut that back head, shut that bow cold shot. Tung applause. What's up, brother? How you doing? I'm so glad to be on here. How y'all doing?

Chilling, man. So let's get right into it. You just recently wrote a book called Urban Apologetics. I've heard so many people talk about it so far. I saw Dr. Tony Evans talking about it the other day, another giant in the faith. Tell us what is the urban apologetics and why you felt compelled to write. Can we back up real quick? Okay, yeah.

Because some folk don't know who Eric Mason is. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'll be assuming everybody do because I know. Who are you, Eric Mason? Because he got your number in his phone, so he think everybody is connected in the same way. Give us some context, Pastor. Well, my name is Eric Mason. I'm the husband of one wife.

That's important. Born and raised in Washington, D.C. During the crack era, the crackademic. And I am also, I have fortunate. children, four living children. I have passed Epiphany Fellowship in Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the global church planner, planted churches from Malawi, Africa, to south central, L.A., New York, a lot of different places, about 44 churches, wrote five books, and excited to be on here.

Oh, Thriving, lead, president of Thriving, and president of the Enok Network. Amen. That's about it. All right. So let's get this question that I asked before before she really interrupted me I'm excited about this book I helped you actually I'm excited about this book urban apologetics and so what is the book urban apologetics and why did you feel compelled to write it?

Well the premise of the book is really more in the subtitle than the title and so but the the big title is kind of what kind of gets captured is urban apologetics restoring black dignity with the gospel and the reason why we wrote the you know the book a general was the general editor I wrote maybe four or five chapters in it and had a team of experts on it and so urban apologetics is really a subgenre of apologetics in which we contextualize answering the questions of African-American people people and specifically this influenced by black ideologies and black cults that pervade urban areas. And now we know urban is not just, it's not a local, it's not a geography anymore. It's a culture that travels beyond a geography now. So, so yeah, that's what that's in a nutshell what urban apologetics is and you know, why we wrote it. We wrote it in order to really help people to have answers. I mean, I was in college in the

early 90s. So, you know, when you went to college back, then you're talking about you a Christian, that wasn't, that wasn't going to fly. And so everybody's like, it's illogical to be a Christian and be black. And so that's been a folklore for the last 50 to 60 years since prior to the civil rights movement. So those things, those questions haven't been answered in years. So we're trying to dive into that. Would you say that that experience like in school is what like developed a desire to contend in like urban spaces or is it like your time as a pastor like I guess what like what began that yeah it was interesting it's always when I first became when I became a believer November 15th 1992 you know you had hip hop was in a way different place than it is now yeah

you know it was a lot of hostility towards Christianity whether you're talking about leaders at a new school poor righteous teachers a tribe called quest public enemy All of those different, you know, groups, you know, and I'm just a few, black sheep, whoever. And the nation of gods and earths was influence in everything. And that's a subsidiary of the nation of Islam that believes that black man is God and the woman is the earth. And it still, you know, has those who are influenced by it today. And so it all, I always as a Christian, black Christian, really felt like because there's almost, a cultural assumption

that Christianity is the white man's religion among lost African Americans, I felt like I was always on the defensive of having to explain why in the world is it logical for you to be a Christian. So it's kind of, and then it comes in waves. So every 20 to

30 years, it re-invigorates itself to blacks being. Why are we even Christians anyway? Or fighting against racism. Whenever you see fighting racial injustice, in America, you always see parallel to it people viewing Western Christianity as they partner to the racism that they're experiencing.

Therefore, in their mind, making it illogical for them to say, how can you be a Christian when you're the religion of your oppressors, as they were saying? Yeah. Yeah. And so in pastoring, because I pastor a ton of millennials and Gen Zs. And so in pastor an ton of, I mean, that's all I got in my church. I maybe have, man, 30 people above the age of 50. you know and so or maybe 40 above the age of 50 and so in light of that reality I'm always I mean this is the inquisitive generation and so I'm all so it's forced from a pastoral standpoint I can't leave it out of the pulpit either or our discipleship yeah yeah that's dope that kind of breaks you to my my next question is how do you think um white supremacy has opened a door for the black conscious movement and and we in somebody explaining black conscious me

movement because not everybody even knows what the conscious you mean like our conscience like it's clean because of jesus yeah so maybe eric you can explain you can explain what the black conscious movement is and then you can kind of explain you know how has like white supremacy kind of open the door for for that these movements good question so the the conscious community is the original um thief of our understanding of what it means to be Biblically woke, the biblically consciousness. W. E.B. Du Bois talks about his double consciousness of black people in his book. I'll talk about it in a woke church, but of black people in his book, The Souls of Black Folk.

And he was disciples by a pastor named Alexander Kromwell, who's the father of Pan-Afghanism. And so in their mind, when they came up with the double consciousness theory and what we now call woke in its more biblically rooted, Ephesians chapter 5, 4 through 16 disposition, You know, it meant being aware to God's truth, and it mean also being aware. I said it takes on, but specifically in the area of racial injustice. His double consciousness was more sociological. From that came to Black Consciousness Movement, which kind of stole from all of the Christian historians, the black historians that were Christian. I mean, if you look at Frederick Douglass, Outa B. Wells, Sojourner. All of them are Christians, you know.

And so what they ended up doing in the 50s and 60s is hijacking that. And later on, that became like Panther movement to the 70s, you know, and then to the 80s, they became this conscious movement. What they don't even realize that they're really a subsidiary of us, they just stole it and hijacked it for ethnocentrism versus both the ethnic identity, ethnic identity that's valued by the Imago dei and Christ changing and framing you and restoring your identity. So the Black conscious community is now a bunch of like, different groups now from comedic groups are Europa spirituality, black atheism, Hebrew Israelites. I mean, anything that's kind of a, has as its base, black identity is the black conscious community. So that's the long and the short of it in a very, very compact way. I ain't never heard that in my life. Yeah, that's deep. And so my second part is, is, is,

because what I've been seeing, what I've seen in mostly all of these, you know, black conscious movements. I grew up around Hebrew Israelites, Moors, you know, you know, black movements like this, right? Muslims and they always tend to talk about how Christianity is the white man religion, you know, and so it kind of seems as if a lot of these movements are fueled by white supremacy. And so how do you, like, what would you say? What would you say, what would you say in terms of how the white supremacy has given birth and open door? to a lot of these, you know, conscious movements to even exist in the first place.

Yeah, for me, when somebody says Christianity to white man's religion, I say, you saying that is a response to white, is basically a work of white supremacy. Yeah. I'll say because white supremacy gave you that, like, if you even did any kind of history, you would know that Christianity could not be the white man's religion.

But your response to trying to restore your own identity, outside of Jesus and true history makes you think which makes you fall into white supremacists. I do two things. I say, first of Christianity started in modern-day Saudi Arabia area. And, you know,

Saudi Arabia slash Israel and made its way into Africa, China, Asia, and Europe. And, you know, and then I talk about the thousand years of theology and, you know, in development. And the earliest manuscripts we have are from Alexandria, Egypt.

the earliest transmissions. If you look at the CSB, if you look at the NASB, you look at the ESV, they use manuscripts that were transmitted by Africans, North Africans. So to even say that Christianity is a white man's religion doesn't make sense. But I can tell you who has a white man's religion.

Nation Islam has a white man religion because their leader was Farah Muhammad, a white man. Morish Temple of Science has a white man's religion because Morism is a form of, is a subsidiary of Islam And Muhammad in the Hadith is called a white man. So the comedic community, they say Christianity is a white man's religion, but they are basing their teachings about Christianity on people like Helena Blavoski,

the Theosophical Society and Alvin Boycun, all those different people. So if anybody has a white man religion, it's all to them. Wow, that's deep. One thing about this conversation that I wanted to speak into even now is that I can hear some people listening to this and saying, I have never heard of any of these terms, any of these religions, Morrist-Science Temple, what is that?

And I think that's why urban apologetics is necessary. Yeah. Because what's happening is you're coming into a conversation that black people are having to have. Because really, you know, studying Mormonism is it helpful, yes. Studying Jehovah's Witnesses, is it helpful, yes. Studying atheism, is it helpful, yes.

But when I go and get my locks twisted, I'm not having to deal with Mormonism. I'm having to deal with why do you worship a white Jesus? Yeah. You know? And so there are particular apologetics that we as black Christians have to develop when it comes to our context in particular. And so I think this is why this conversation is so necessary.

Yeah. Because it just, it equips me and it helps me to know what to do when I'm getting my hair done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. I want to talk about particularly Hebrew. Israelites because I think that, you know, just being a black man from the urban community, the Hebrew Israelites are on the rise and I don't see their movement shrinking. I see it growing.

I see... But can I ask you this? Who are they? What do they believe? And so the Hebrew Israelites are a group of people who believe that they are essentially ethnic Israel. They believe that they come from the lineage of, you know, Jesus, David. They believe that they are the true Israelites. They believe that when the Bible talks about how, you know, the children of Israel was shipped away, you know, in ships and stuff like that.

And Deuteronomy. And Deuteronomy, they believe that essentially that was a transatlics. I only know that because of Kendrick. Yeah, that was a transatletic slave trade. And that, you know,

and that they're, that they're, that essentially that they're ethnic Israel. And so right now a lot of, you know, we have denominations. They have camps. A lot of camps would tell you that they are a part of the Great Awakening where they're realizing that they are the true,

of Israel and their mission is to show black people the so-called black man, you know, that we are the original Israelites. They believe that, you know, and so they don't call themselves black Hebrew Israelites anymore. They call themselves Hebrew Israelites because they believe that, you know, Native Americans are part of ethnic Israel. They believe in Hispanics are part of ethnic Israel. They believe the so-called black man in America who, yeah, it's part of ethnic Israel.

They don't believe that people like white people, Asians are part of that lineage. And they believe that, you know, they will... So in essence... So in essence, if you are not black and brown and then awakened, you can't be saved, is that the... I'm trying to parse this out.

So one of the things that I try not to do, and I'll let Eric speak to this because I learn a lot from him, is I try not to put all of what Hebrew-Israelites believe in one basket because there are, like I said, there are many camps. They're not monolithic. Yeah, they're not monolithic at all. And so some camps don't believe in what other camps believe.

I think essentially what all of them believe is they're part of ethnic Israel. Okay. And so, you know, a lot of black men and black women are getting a hold to this false theology, for lack of, for the term, and they're leaving the faith in droves. And so I don't see, you know, this religion shrinking. I believe that it's going to continue to grow. And so, yeah, speaking to the black Hebrew-Israelite, Hebrew-Israelite, you know, movement and how we as a church can combat that.

That's a big question. Well, the movement actually comes from Pentecostalism. A lot of people don't know that. That's why they have readers. The camps have readers because read slavery huh re re yeah yeah absolutely if you look at some and you look at some really really rural like old school apostolic videos the pastor don't even read the bible no he don't preachers that the person reads that comes from the church that's deep um the SD but um but anyway so Hebrew

Israelites i mean it had its wave and they they wouldn't have called it they thought themselves as rabbinic Jews in the 20s I'm skipping over a lot of stuff Fast forward, some of the guys that were in post-a-Hallum, riddiscount taught by some blacks who started their own synagogue from white Jews in Harlem, ended up starting their own, they started in the 60s, one West, one Weston Harlem, and basically began a different strand of what we call Hebrew Israelism that we know as camps, which those are ones that be on the street, you know,

and people jokingly, you know, make fun of their garb, or whatever, and I don't want to do that. But their belief fundamentally is that all of the Hebrew-Israelites, they'll pretty much agree that black people pretty much that came over in transatlantic slave trade. These are those even who, quote-unquote, called themselves moderates. There's some old groups in Chicago. There's an old group that's like a mega-church.

And they almost feel, they almost feel like country, but it's interesting. And so I forgot the group there. I got a presentation on it. So they ultimately believe, that we're all pretty much the descendants of Israelites and that's why we got

pushing this transatlatic slave trade based on Deuteronomy 2868 but then when you go to the groups and you begin asking questions like for me Preston I really I really don't care if somebody calls themselves a Hebrew I could care less

yeah right I care less which goes up my question this is what I'm asking I'm asking okay what is your canon for scripture. Who is Jesus? How do you get saved? Now, when you start saying you're justified, like you'll have some groups now, they've changed. They used to say you're justified by the law. Then when you're taken to Romans 220 by works of the law to no flesh be justified. So there are groups that

believe that you're justified by faith, but you're sanctified by the law. But then when you take them to Galatians, and, you know, they get confused in it. So you talked about, you know, them, I think I heard you say that they don't, essentially they don't believe that, you know, Jesus is God and they deny it. No, no, no, you will not find, you will find some moderates, but they're, they're all, let me just say this.

Hebrew Israelism is working on, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, um, working document with their theology. Okay. So if you study it, and, and, and so there's no heresy for them except for what Christian and what's white. So when you look at, when you look at their Christology, it's Arianism, which basically believes that Jesus Christ is a created being, which that's what Mormons believe. That's what Jehovah Witnesses believe. Also, their view of scripture is very

disjointed. So there are some that are what's called Tanak only, which is Old Testament only, some that believe in the Gospels. Of course, a lot of them don't like Paul because Paul pretty much challenges all of, I mean, he challenges their Judaizing, so they decanonize Paul a lot and then pick and choose like the nation of Islam which verses are inspired and useful

in which ones are not. But they viewed most of them viewed a New Testament as a commentary on the Old Testament and believe that the law of Moses is the most hefty and most important part of Scripture. Wow. Wow. I think for me, well, one,

I have so many questions because on one level I'm asking the question of what does a Christian need to read to equip themselves because one thing I've thought is man like Galatians itself just having a knowledge of Galatians to me gives you a lot of context for how to defend against justification

on the basis of ethnicity but also I also think about but I'm a woman and they don't listen to people like me and so it's like what is even a woman to do if you know she wants to engage with this particular sect because I remember one time me and my friends

we had went up to them on the street because they was like yelling at us and I tried to start talking and he was like you don't get to talk to me like you're a woman and you got on paintings you know what I'm and so I was just like I'm good so is that one of those things

where like as a woman I just I just got to pray and give them to you know it depends on the camp because it depends on the camp but I think what you this is what is so important Jackie in your question is this we don't know our faith before we even get to gender and all of that in other words having a strong understanding who Jesus is and where I can find it in the Bible is so important yeah um having an understanding like they of course talk stuff about the Trinity. You know, we're like, if you ask the average question is, you know, where do you find

a Trinity in the Bible? Most of them are just say they believe it. And you say, no, no, no, no. Just give me, give me a few verses that you kind of root your belief in. One of the things that I believe that a lot of what we're dealing with exposes is a lack of discipleship in the church. Wow. A lack of, a lack of equipping for people having a basic confidence. I'm not saying everybody has to be a scholar, but I do think that when you run across people in other, in these groups, they know what they believe better than we know what we're supposed to believe. Yes, should it be. It's true, though.

And so, and so the, and so the issue is we have to begin as believers. We just got to make better disciples. All of these sermons on purpose is cool. All of these sermons on your season is cool. All these sermons on, it's about, it's about to be a breakthrough. I sense of the atmosphere. That's about, it's about to be a moot. Hey, this is about to be a moot.

You know, and all of that's fine, but when they get on the street, or they, or they in their classroom and college, and they first go to college, and they get in a philosophy class. Yeah. And they get gutted. Yeah. You understand what I'm saying? You know, what have we put in the souls and minds and hearts of our people

that helps them to be able to stand firm for the glory of God in the gospel, man? Yeah, and that's what I've been saying for the last couple of years. I think that the church, I think it's imperative that the church do a better job of teaching are young Christians and older Christians, how to engage with the world, how to engage with different worldviews. Because I think what happens is when we get,

when we have a framework for our faith, right? But then when you get out in the world, and the first time your faith is challenged, you're rattled because nobody prepares you for it. Yeah. nobody prepared you for it and I think that's a I think that's a tragedy but back to back to the back to the Jackie's question the other part of her question about gender I do think we have to be gender sensitive and apologetics but for the most part though because sometimes those I'm talking about with Hebrew Israelites in particular because of the way they act but when you get them one-on-one usually Jackie they'll talk to a woman yeah and and they'll and usually they put on a front in front of their crew and we're talking about camps specifically specifically not the other groups but um but yeah that's a that's a big deal and don't even let me get on polygamy how they bring one one one uh woman the sabbath meeting one week and bring another

woman to sabbath meeting the next week so that's a whole other the moral compass is bad wow um i wanted to ask this question because uh i read this article uh maybe a month ago uh it was written in like 2018 about how black women in particular are leaving the church and basically embracing African spiritualism and what it makes me think of because I don't see women you know flock into Hebrew Israelism but I do see black men yeah but I see a lot of women embracing you know just different gods and crystals and energy and all and so it's interesting to me how even just like the pool for like finding your identity and kind of like these African kind of thought I can't even explain my question I guess what it is is what is the attraction I understand exactly what

you're saying what's the attraction I understand what you're saying yeah so I don't know if you saw the live man Dr. Sarita did I did like last week or a few weeks ago or whatever but um you know she she does a chapter on black women and the appeal of the black conscious community in the book and one of the things that we were talking about that she was saying is that the church has dropped the ball, like they have dropped the ball on affirming black identity, they also dropped the ball on affirming women.

Even both in egalitarian and complementarian spaces on both. And how we dog feminism, but don't affirm the ways in which feminism does for women what the church should be doing for women. And that's affirming, her femininity, that women can be theologians, that women can teach, the women can preach. And, you know, your differences on where and when and to who,

you know, we can work through that, and we don't have to, you know, hate on each other as Christians because we have different views on function. But value, we should be exalting the value of women. Because she was saying, you know, for the, for the, she said for the, for white men represent manhood. White women represent womanhood. black men represent blackness black women represent nothing wow and when she said that it was the most i mean

i had to stop the live for a second and just sit back and she said we're not the prototype for anything in culture because of how culture has treated us it's the church's job based on james and based on genesis chapter three i mean jenesis chapter one to restore the dignity of anybody um not just black people and women, but anybody who's dealing with dignity destruction, that's why you see in the Old Testament, it talks a lot about, like in Psalm 9, and it talks about it in Isaiah chapter 1, talks about Isaiah chapter 10, talks a lot about widows and orphans because in their society, those were the people on the bottom of the dignity strand.

So whoever's at the bottom of the dignity strand in a society, they're supposed to be, you know, like, I'm a Star Wars dude, right? And so when their ship getting beat up and it's about to go down, you know what I say, they'll say, put all people. power through the forward thrusters. And, you know, so they reroute the power, get the power, so they can land. You know, the church needs to rewrite,

the rewrot its power to affirming the dignity of black women. Wow. That's good. That's really good. That's strong. I have a question. So, I talk to a lot of black men who follow the channel or just follow you,

follow me. And a lot of times they're discouraged, not because they have to tall task of, you know, defending their faith. But when you are in the, in the black urban context, a lot of the times, you're not just merely defending your faith. You're defending your personhood. You're defending your lineage. You're defending, you know, who you are. And so I think in a lot of ways, you know, the black apologists or the black apologetic looks different than, you know, our white counterparts, right? Because we have to, you know, yeah, we have to defend who we

And so what would you say to to the black Christian who's essentially tired who's tired of of having to not not only defend the God that they serve, but defend the person that they are? What would you say to encourage that man or that woman? That's a good question. Yeah, one of the things that I would, you know, I would encourage people with is first off, we're in a, We're really in a space now, which I'm loving what you all are doing, the content, the people like you all and many others, younger folk are putting out that can help be an encouragement to saying I'm not alone. One of the best, I remember Impact in 1994 when I went to Impact Movement. And I went, it was in Atlanta, right downtown at the Omni Hotel.

And I remember going to impact. And I had never, I didn't, I mean, I thought I was Elijah and God was like, nah, it's 200, it's 2,500 of you in here, bro, you know. And so I'm looking around like 2,500 black men and women from college campuses all over the country who are standing for Christ and who are fighting the same war I'm fighting. And so, man, I think that's, that's the, that's the key. First is getting yourself, whether it's online or geographically around people that let you know you're not crazy. Wow, that's good. You know, to me that's the first thing because once you know you're not crazy, then you can take a sigh of relief and begin building your arsenal. Yeah, that's good.

That's good, yeah, because I think what I hear a lot is, you know, for the people, I did a live last week, just basically, you know, answering questions that a lot of people had. And I randomly allow people to come on a live with me and this one guy, he was very sincere, he was out in Compton. And he was basically just emotional.

And he said, literally, you, Jackie, Eric Mason, and the end campaign are the only, like, a handful of people that I look to for affirmation of who I am as a black Christian. And what else did he say? He said a bunch of stuff. I wasn't listening. But basically, you know, we're the people that he looked to for affirmation. And I think that's the big part of the problem, that it's a lot. lack of representation. And so I think that if we can find spaces,

even if we could create spaces, well, we can, you know, have so many people represented to encourage us. That would just be big. I got a selfish question. Yeah, that's big. Your conference coming back, because that's a real good place to go to be encouraged.

Yeah, it is. We'll rework. What we're doing is we're reworking it. So it's an online hub, and the online hub leads to a conference versus the other way around. Mm-hmm. And so what the gospel coalition has for its constituency, we want to develop that type of platform for black folk. That's why.

Black Christians. That's why. And so that means it'll be a one-stop shot. It's not just apologetics, but everything you can think of. It's going to be, it's going to be crazy for us. And I want to even get to the point we have church recommendations in different areas. So as people are moving in career, we have some solid churches that are biblically sound, yet also haven't forgotten about the, the, the, the systemic. need of blacks. So yeah. Amen. Well, I mean, thank you, Pastor Eric Mason for joining us today.

We really, I was encouraged. Yeah, I was encouraged, man. Thank you, man. Thank you for just leading the way for being an example for not just black Christians, but just Christians in general. Yeah. Being solid, being, you know, being committed to like just biblical excellence and not just being lazy in your approach. I think that it's been obvious me, you know, following you throughout the years that you've spent a lot of time, a large majority of your life, making sure you give us accurate information about the Bible and who Jesus is. And so for that, I thank you.

And I want to add since we, you know, building up and identifying the Eric Mason Saint. I think like, I think even, I think both of you do this very well and Lisa Fields, which is you show people that apologetics can be loving, you know? Because when I hear Eric talk, when I hear you talk, when I hear Lisa talk, I really don't hear people that are learning just for the sake of learning. Yeah. As apologetics has typically been seen. It's like, no, there's, I'm thinking about people in my neighborhood, in my context that

I care about and that I want them to come to the knowledge of the truth. This is why I'm learning what I learn. You know what I'm saying? Like that's a whole other thing. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so excited to read your book because I love apologetics, but a lot of the apologetic books that I've read so in the past, they've been so informational-driven and just so like, let me teach you how to like do these tactics, but they don't teach you

how to like really engage and love people. And our apologetic, we should just do apologetics just to do apologetics, just to learn a whole bunch of information. It should be evangelistic. It should be a way to essentially make disciples, you know. Amen. You know, so the Great Commission, I think it's not often thought about, sadly, when we think about apologetics. We think about how can we stomp somebody in the argument and not win somebody's soul.

And so, man, for that, I've been, you know, you know this, but I've been, you know, a huge advocate of just your work. And so thank you, brother, for what you do. All right. So in the show notes, in the show notes, I'll have the link to Urban Apologetic Eric Mason's most recent work. and additional resources so that y'all can, you know, help this man get all his royalties because he got a lot of babies. Yeah, buy this book. Because royalties are a blessing in Jesus' name. Hey, kiddie your little son.

Hey, she had it a bit. Don't, don't. All right, sir. Good talking to you. Peace. Likewise.