With The Perrys - What if Porn Was Actually Satanic? An Honest Conversation With Ray Ortlund

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

Ray Ortlund is back on the podcast to discuss the topics of pornography, human dignity, sexuality, and marriage. As a pastor, Ray has come to realize that porn is the wallpaper of our culture. It’s everywhere. We’re not just looking at it; it’s looking for us. So how are we to respond and fight back with the gospel in mind?   Grab a copy of Ray’s book, The Death of Porn: Men of Integrity Building a World of Nobility and follow him on Instagram at @rayortlund.   And if you missed it, go back and listen to Ray with his wife Jani in a previous episode, Family and Parenting with Generations in Mind: A Conversation With The Ortlunds. Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, St. Names. How are you? What's good with y'all? Hope you're happy. Hope you're blessed. Hope your whole. Hope you brush your teeth today. And your tongue. Oh, and the cheeks. That's where all the smell is. You brush your cheeks? Yeah, you got to brush your cheeks. You know they have like cheek cleaners?

I believe it. I just never did that. Yeah, and you know what? And brush your back tooth. That's where all the funk is at, the back tooth. That's crazy. That's absolutely insane. When the phone hit the fans. I'm just going to jump straight into it. Last week, we had a very edifying and beautiful conversation with Ray and Janie Ortland about their book to the 10th generation. We talked about marriage and family and kids and, you know, how Ray was a hippie that didn't smoke weed. Strange, but, you know, it was obviously possible.

Strange, but it's how, I'm pretty sure a lot of hippies didn't smoke weed. I've just said the way the, the, the, the, the documentaries set up, they're doing LSD and acid and San Francisco's going to come later. Anyway, I, we got Ray back to talk about horn. That's my introduction to this conversation. You know what, that?

I, Pastor Ray. That was a great introduction. Thank you for joining us. I love being with you guys. No, we love you being here. So here's the thing. I mean, if,

so on this channel, people probably talk about this topic a lot. Pornography. I've been very transparent, very open about my wrestle with it as a Christian and what the Lord has done in my heart,

you know, I've been free from porn for some years now, three years now. I'm just porn free, and it's been a great freedom. But we wanted to have a conversation with you because you just have a different level of wisdom. I mean, you wrote a whole book on it, you know, and I'm not there. And so, like, when I started thinking about having you on, I was like, man, like, I'm pretty sure we'll probably talk about this topic again on this platform. But, you know, I think that you would be good icing on the cake of all the stuff that we talked about on this platform leading up to this point. So the name of his book is called The Death of Porn, Man of Integrity, Building a World of Nobility.

Right. And so one, I usually don't like asking this question, but why did you feel the need to write this book? Yeah. As a pastor, most of the people in the church were in their 20s and 30s. And as the years went by, when I would have coffee with a guy, I moved from. wondering if porn was an issue in his life, wondering if in the last week or two he'd been exposed to porn, to assuming that porn was part of his life, and in the last week or two, he's been involved in porn. I just had to take it for granted because one of the privileges of

being a pastor is people trusting me, opening up. And we get to to talking about what's really going on and how we're not doing well. I love those conversations. I feel so honored to be involved in somebody's life like that. And I love to open my life too. So in that kind of transparent, honest open environment, I came to realize porn is the wallpaper of our culture now. Wow. It's just everywhere. And it's not just that we're looking at porn, that porn is looking for us. Wow. When we're not looking at it, it's still knocking on the door.

My email address ended up on the dark web a few months ago. And I began to get emails, and they weren't good. And I always have two immediate responses when one of those shows up. My first response, and I hate this about myself, my first response is, Huh. And my second response, and I'm grateful for this, is anger. Because that precious girl or that woman, she didn't volunteer for that. She was beaten into it.

She was mistreated. Somebody took her soul away and lied to her. Wow. And coerced her into that. Wherever porn goes, coercion goes, degradation goes, trafficking goes. Man, so, I mean, obviously. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, you, I was sharing with you before we began how back in the Twitter days,

when you would post, you would often talk about the porn industry. And I think a lot of times we talk about porn use, like in a home and relationships with people, but we don't look at the bigger monster, the bigger machine that's actually fueling the addictions. What did you learn in your studies about the porn industry? Well, there's so much I don't want to know, but I think of it this way, Jackie. 200 years ago, where we are right now, slavery was legal. People traded in human beings. Now, we look back on those days.

Here we are Christians. We look back on those days, and we see three human profiles in that historical situation. We see abolitionists. We see liberators, and we're so proud of them. They stood up. They stuck their neck out. They paid a price, and they did the right thing. And we just were moved by them.

Secondly, and many of them were Christians. Secondly, we see passive onlookers. You know, they just kind of shrugged their shoulders. Hey, these things happen. It's not really right, but what can you do? You know? And what would the economy be without it anyway? So they just kind of make peace with it.

And we grieve over those people. We wonder, what were you thinking? How could you... Third human profile. Slaveholders. slave traders some of whom claim to be Christians

and we look at them we're indignant we are offended we are grieved how could you do that especially how could you do that and have the name of Christ on your lips so here are these

we see liberators passive onlookers active traders all right we've got the same thing going on today and where are we in that picture. Man. You know, we

don't want future generations looking back on us grieving over us. Where were you guys? You begin your book. Well, it's kind of broken into different categories where it's you are royalty

speaking directly to men. She is royalty. Speaking about women and many of the women who are part of these films and then he is royalty, speaking about Christ. I'm intrigued by the order because, as I share with you and share with Preston, I feel like I can assume that people would think that a book of confronting pornography use

and stuff like that would start with sin, would start with Genesis 3, was not Genesis 1 and 2 that you're made in the image of God. And so is there a strategy you had with saying, no, let me affirm the fact that you have dignity as a man, as a means of ministering. to them about pornography. Well, in a way, but really, the gospel demands that we start with human glory. The story does not begin in Genesis 3 and human sin. It starts in Genesis 1 and human dignity. This is a big deal to me.

If I'm just a piece of trash, now God loves me, but still, I'm just a piece of trash, why should I even care? why not do the most disgusting, creepy things ever? And if everybody else is just trash, why does anything matter? But what if God created us in his image?

And what that means is, it means we're royalty. The king of the universe put us human beings on this planet to represent him. It's like when there's a king who wants to remind the people in all the parts of his empire of who he is and his presence and his care for them.

But he can't get around all those places all the time. Some places he doesn't visit very often. So what does he do? He has a statue of himself put up right in the center of town. So everybody can be reminded he's there. He's got this. we are images of God to declare that the king is present. So he made us royalty in this his world to spread his kingdom.

We have every right to stand tall. And to have a sense of stature and dignity and worth and identity. that's high and holy. And that's true of every human being. What happens when we become converted to Christ is that dignity starts to be reformed and become clear and glorious and eternal. And it's true of everybody in the porn industry,

every precious girl or woman who's been put there. She's been lied to She's been told she is something that she isn't She's never been told I'm willing to bet Never been told how glorious Really glorious she is Maybe she's been flattered

I don't know lied to Who has told her You have something of the glory of God upon you And it's sacred Yeah Well One of the things that you know it seems like you try to do very obvious in this book is to not only like let people know how

how much role it's who we are but you've also held men accountable to the degrading of women right and if i'm just honest when i was struggling with porn i just thought about a knee being being mad or my lust being you know cater to or Uh, insecurity even, you know, it's, it's so self-gratical, um, glorifying or whatever, but I don't, I don't, I, I didn't think about how selfish that act was, you know, uh, I often thought, thought about how selfish the, the, the sin of molesting someone is. I've often thought about that and even self-righteously in, in such a way, like, how can you do that? But at the same time, I think Jackie read me a line this morning that really made me think about like how much we're supporting the degrading

and the abuse of women around the world when we watch porn. I guess I have two questions. Why do you think most men who engage, even women who engage in pornography don't realize, that's what they're watching? And why does you feel the need to highlight or to hold people accountable to you're doing,

this is what you're actually doing. You're joining Satan, you're your X, Y, Z. Satan does not want anybody to know what's really going on. His kingdom will fall if the word gets out. That this is really a system of oppression. So if he doesn't put out a sign, slave market, human beings for sale to the highest bidder, he makes it look like fun. And if the actors don't act like they're having fun, they're going to be punished all the more. So I really, really want everybody to, that's why Genesis 1 and 2 matters so much.

God comes, he interrupts. Yeah. He comes, he just walks right in. And he says, we're going to change the subject. You've got to know that you and everybody on the face of the earth has stature in my eyes. And who we really are is not who we think we are. Who we really are is who God says we are. God says we have stature in his eyes.

That that precious girl on the porn site is dear to the heart of God. and he is angry at how she's being mistreated. It forces the issue, whose side am I on? I got to face that. Can I read this quote? It says, Satan hates women. It was a woman, remember, who brought Jesus into this world, dooming Satan's evil kingdom forever.

Satan could not get his hands on the risen Jesus, but he sure can torment women, and he does. porn is Satan. Yes, Satan. Assaulting women, denying their glory, dragging them down because they remind him every day of the true king he hates and fears. I could hear somebody listening to this conversation and saying that is dramatic. Porn is Satan is just, you know, she consented to be a part of that. Like, sex is God gave us sex. Sex is good. Like, it's not that deep. Why is everything demonic? Then I would say, then why believe the gospel at all? If porn succeeds, if we allow porn to succeed, we are saying, I don't believe the gospel at all.

If we say we believe the gospel, we are taking sides against porn. We're taking sides for human sexuality. Porn isn't about sex. it's about power Satan it's not like God is squeamish and embarrassed by sex and he doesn't really feel comfortable

with the fact that we have bodies and hormones and so forth but Satan oh he just loves that no sex makes him sick to his stomach it was through human sexuality through human bodies that his arch enemy came into this world

through a woman He came out of her womb. God designed human sexuality for his glory. He loves our sexuality. He cherishes and values our sexuality. He doesn't look at our bodies and roll his eyes. The greatest thing about the Christian gospel, or I should say perhaps the punchline of the Christian gospel,

is the resurrection of the body. The Stoic philosophers in Paul's Day, they didn't believe that. What they said, here's our problem. We have these icky bodies, all these, you know, elemental basic, primal needs and desires.

But we then, we also have minds, we have spirits. And these bodies, we have in common with the animals. Our spirits and our intellects and our minds, we have in common with the gods. So, salvation is, stop pandering to your body and develop your mind and your spirit. Now, that was what the Stoic said.

Paul comes along, the apostle Paul, he says, 1st Corinthians 6, the Lord is for the body. And the body is for the Lord. Our Savior above has a pro-body policy in his kingdom. I was speaking to tongue if I could. good. So when we yield our bodies to him, we don't lose them. That's good.

That's really good. We get our bodies back forever. I mean, Preston, I cannot wait to see you in glory, man. Oh, man. That sounds like Ray Orlin. We're going to have some fun, brother. So what you're saying is, God is for the body. God is for sexuality, and therefore,

pornography is not the affirmation of sexuality or the dignifying of the body, but rather like Satan low-key trying to, like, destroy what God made for beauty. Human sexuality is like a mansion, a gorgeous mansion. Porn burns it to the ground. Don't tell me porn is pro-sex. Sex-positive.

What a lie. It is a lie. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I will love for you to speak to the lies that men have believed about themselves that has drove them into porn. Because in my, just talking about myself, you know, I think I've said this on the podcast. But for me, it was bigger than lust. One of the things that the Lord had to reveal to me was I came from a lineage of men. who found their identity and how much women wanted them. And what people did not prepare me for, not blaming my sin on other people, what people did not prepare me for was me getting married. And my wife saying, no, I don't want to have sex tonight. And how low that made me felt.

And so even though I was still in Christ, I still very much had my uncle's ideology in my mind that, no, if you're a real man, a woman doesn't tell you, no. And so porn for me, you know, it was lust, but it was more so me living vicariously through men who wasn't being told no, right? It was, in a lot of ways, it was about power. I didn't realize it was, but it was about power. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, my power and my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, when I was rejected in my marriage.

And so, in your experience of pastoring throughout the years, what are some laws, what are the laws you think that men believe about themselves that drives them to watch porn? Because I'm assuming that it can be a myriad of topics, right? What do you think some of those things are? Well, the first thing I want to say is that I'm a sexual sinner. Ray Orland. Yeah.

Okay. I love my wife. I don't have a girlfriend on the side and I'm not looking at porn and I am a sexual sinner. Everything about me is not what it should be. And if

I really wish that good and evil in this world were color-coded, then we could really tell. It would be obvious. Like if good was this beautiful green like spring green and evil was like yellow police tape and that would really

help. Yeah. But we got I have to read the Bible and figure things out. Yes. But if evil were like yellow, like police tape at a crime scene, I would be glowing yellow all the time, like even right now. Not because I intend it. It's just flowing out of me. And that includes my sexuality.

And what I've noticed, when my mind goes into a bad place, it's because I'm not thinking most of the evil that's done in the world is not by people who want to do evil it's by people who aren't thinking and that's me so the only way that

what has helped me through the years being married to Janney is to realize and this took a long time for me to begin to understand I'm embarrassed at how long it took me. She's so kind and forgiving, but I'm not okay with this. I began to realize as the years went by, oh, there's a reason I have these crazy intense feelings.

There's a reason this is surging through me. And the reason is not me. It's for her. God created me, and he's not looking back, wishing he hadn't done it this way. God greeted me with his testosterone and so forth for Janney. And I can serve her with my sexuality. And if she doesn't feel like it at any particular time, that's okay. If this is servanthood, that's fine.

There'll come another time. And my sexual intensity is not for me. I did not know this for so long. It is for her. That's a game changer. That was for me. So if the reason God gave me this crazy intensity and this, also the euphoria of making love, if the TD I want to score is her happiness, her fulfillment, her pleasure, her feeling loved,

okay, now I finally know what to do with my sexuality. that that seems like it would be so counterintuitive and countercultural yeah it is because i think we've been disciples into believing that sexual like sexual expression is primarily self-centered self-oriented and so yeah i mean you have people in your mind how would they respond to what he just said man that's a really good question babe i think for me you know, granted, I grew up with men who were not Christian. Right, right. Clearly.

I grew up with men who were womanizers, pimps, players, these type of type of men. And I think that sounds foreign to this culture because, you know, I think this, our society tells us to do what makes you feel. Yeah. Right? And the gospel is so opposite. It is love God with all your heart, mind, soul, body, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. It doesn't talk about loving us, right? You know, well, it does talk about loving ourselves, but, like, loving others as yourself.

Like, and so, like, I think men would think that's crazy, honestly. Like, that's nuts. Like, you're telling me that my body was created. Like, but I think that, like, no, when you think about the, like, when you think about God and how he laid his life down for us and how he, how he wants us to serve one another and how a marriage actually will be way more healthy if we had that that mindset that I'm coming thinking about loving you with my body and in doing so I am pleasureed right but it's not I'm not seeking my pleasure and so how much how many how many on a very practical level how many arguments would be eliminated hmm

How much tension in a marriage will be eliminated. That's a great point. How much, how much, how much frustration will be eliminated when your wife tells you know and you're doing it for her. That's good. But if you're doing it for yourself and she tells you no, you immediately feel offended because it's not about her. That's interesting. Right? And so like, I think God not only, it's not only in that ideology, not even just thinking about the bodies, but also just thinking about our holistic relationship.

Yeah. Like the holistic health of our relationship, I think hinges on serving one another more than we serve ourselves. That's really good. And if we do that, how healthy a relationship would be, you know. You know, when you said a moment ago, Preston, that some people would listen to us talking about this and say, you're crazy. Yeah. That's actually wonderful. Because when people start saying to us, you are crazy to believe that.

You're crazy to live that way. They're actually starting to see Christianity. Yeah. You have to go through, literally go through a religious conversion to enter into this. You have to be born again. We're talking about miracle. A natural man doesn't understand spiritual things, for they are spiritually discern, right? And so it is, it is crazy to think when society and your uncles and your father, whatever, whoever has told you know, you do get as many women.

womenish you want. This idea, know that I'm only coming into this sexual relationship, this marriage, to meet the needs of someone else. Yeah. So what we're not talking about is on a scale of one to ten, neglect. You can upgrade your life by coming to Jesus. Yeah. And if you're at a four or it is six, wherever you are on that scale of one to ten,

Jesus can take the you that you wanted to be anyway and make that you even better. Make that you more what you wanted anyhow. We're not talking about that. We're talking about take the scale away. How would you like to be a walking miracle forever? That's what Jesus said to Nicodemus when he in John 3. you must be born again. Yeah, that's good.

I wanted to say something earlier. You said, and I just want to clear it up, because I think people might have misheard you when you talked about Jesus coming through the sexual relationship. You wasn't denied the virgin birth. Oh, Preston. Thank you so much. Absolutely not.

Ray wasn't denied the virgin birth. He wasn't saying that Mary had sex with someone and Jesus came into the world. Somebody had sex for Mary. And sex for Mary's coming to the world. For Judah to be here. Somebody had to do it. But he came through a woman's body.

He came through a woman's body. Yes. That's the point that she was trying to. I knew what you were trying to say, but I know how people can hear things on this podcast and run with it. Yeah. Thank you so much, Preston. Yeah. I mean, you kind of helped with the ESV Bible.

Surely he would be theoretically accurate. Yeah, right world some of the ESV Bible. He knows his Bible. But. Again, I'm thinking of people who are frustrated with their wives, frustrated with even in our situation, the lack of consistent sexual stuff. Because I think if we are transparent, I think me, the Lord put two very sexually broken people together when he put me and pressing together. Because you have a man who was introduced to sex very early, found identity in it. You felt valued, wanted desire through sexual intercourse.

You married a woman who was sexually abused and was not physically touched in intimate ways by male figures, only abused by male figures. You put both of those people in the marriage. God funny like that, Amy. Where sexual intimacy communicates control and abuse, not love. And for you, it communicates a lot. You get what I'm saying? And so with that tension, I think you have a lot of couples like that. and they cannot say it out loud.

It's just your body belongs to your spouse, so do it. And I think there are some women who they might emotionally withdraw to deal with the stuff. And there are some men that might go to porn, which is also as emotional withdrawal to deal with the stuff. I'm thinking about them. Yeah. And I'm like, what do we? How did the Lord guide you to have the conversations such that you discovered each other and how to serve and help and love each other? How did that look, what did that look like?

Look at Ray being an interviewer. It's still happening, Ray. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I feel like with us, just honesty, just being just really honest and transparent with one another. You know, and also, too, I think when me and Jackie got married, I didn't know how to take rejection. and because of her abuse

she didn't know how to fully receive a man even wanting her that way without feeling like you want something you want something not me because when someone takes away takes something from you in abuse you want to

like I had to realize that my wife needs to feel like she has all taught me to choose when somebody took away that privilege right and so for me I think we had a break through in our marriage, and we're still working through a lot.

When I realized that my wife is rejecting it, she's not rejecting me. When I realized that, because, you know, it was more than just the act. It was like, do you love me? But I think if you grew up in society, and I think that's what a lot of men do when you watch porn, they grew up in a society that says a woman should want you, right? A woman should vow, you should be desirable. And so I think a lot of men watch porn because they can vicariously live through men not being rejected, right?

And so I had to just realize, no, no, no, no, she's a whole one. She's like a holistic person with a whole bunch of, you know, baggage, but also just like she's more than just her, you know, this body that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that I want to please me, right? And so, like, I think I had to just realize that. And when I was able to realize it, I think I was able to love her better.

Yeah. And be more patient with her. And I think that patient has helped us tremendously. Yeah. And in a lot of other stuff, I mean. Yeah, I think I am, I don't feel like being emotional, but I am most secure. It's okay, babe.

I didn't think I would cry but I think I feel most secure when I feel loved just because like I think when it feels like I'm only wanted to give you something that's hurtful but it's like no

if you say no I love you if you say yes I love you if you say not yet I love you if you say tomorrow I love like I think when that it when there was a consistent pattern of me just being loved that changed everything

Yeah, and it convicted me. You don't make me emotional, but it convicted me because I realized. Rihanna, can you get me a tissue? I realized what she wanted for me was exactly how the way the Lord loves me. You know, and I think we were just talking about this. Wait until she gets some tissue. Thank you. We were just talking about how we can serve our friends in this season, like how she can

serve her friends. Now, she was encouraging me how I can serve a particular friend. And I was telling her, this particular friend makes me feel away when they don't want to do this, when I want to do that. And she was just like, you have to go into this friendship, not thinking about what they do, how it affects you, but how can you serve them, you know? And I think when she said that, I remember early on in our marriage, some years back, having to learn that in our marriage, that, like, I did not know what Christ like servanthood was. I took, I loved her. You know, and I still loved her deeply,

but I just didn't know how to deal with the hurt and pain that her rejection brought to me because the rejection felt like you didn't want me. I didn't feel desirable. I didn't feel loved. But she did want me. She just didn't want the act because she didn't feel desired. She didn't feel loved.

And so I think when I learned that like, no, like if she says no, she just means. Yeah. And now the no is layered. It's not, nah, it's like, you know, today was a difficult day. But can we watch a movie? Are there other avenues of intimacy that might even open me up to a yes? Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. Every one of us married someone who has suffered. deeply. That's a great part of the privilege of marriage. God entrusted to me this precious woman, Janney, who had suffered. I didn't even realize that going in. I had no idea. And as the magnitude of it broke upon me,

I began to realize what a profound injury that is, I started to feel honored that God would, she is so precious to God, that God would entrust to me his precious daughter who has suffered deeply. Yeah. That's a privilege. It is. All righty.

Go ahead. I thought you had a question. No, I'm overwhelmed now. She's overwhelmed. Well, man, I have so many questions. In your experience of pastoring, like, when did you realize that you had to write this book for the men you were pastoring? Like, when did you say, enough is enough, I have to write this book? Two parts of the answer.

One, when I got angry enough. I hate it. when precious human beings are mistreated. Treated like trash. Yeah. Secondly, I love revival. And here's the next Great Awakening I want to see. It's not some nicey-nice church down the street.

It's already doing pretty well and it becomes even more nicey-nice. If that's the next revival, I'm not interested. What if, 10 years from now, some of the greatest voices for the gospel in the world are people who came, who were converted out of the porn industry? What if there is in Jesus visits that dark and deep place with his saving grace and his loving touch and his mercy, his restoration? What if some of the best storytellers for the gospel, 10 years from now, are videographers from inside the point? industry? What if what if some of the biggest donors

to gospel causes 10 years from now are former investors in porn sites and so forth? If that's the next great awakening sign me up. Amen. Wow. I want to see the risen Jesus visit that dark place.

Well let me ask you this. Okay. You've passed for 45 years And I'm pretty sure you've seen countless cases of men, even women struggling with this thing. How does a pastor address this in their congregation, like publicly and also privately in meetings when porn is such a secret sin? It's not a sin that's so open and, you know, in your face. So it's not even a sin that people confess as much as they confess jealousy or pride or, you know, anger. There's a reason why shame kicks in so big.

It's just screaming at us after we sin sexually. It's precisely because our sexuality is so sacred. It's not because our sexuality's trashy. But it's so glorious with the glory of God. And it's so personal. I mean, this is not just a body function. More than we in our generation realize our sexuality is very, it's way down deep.

It's a profound part of us. And when we injure and trash that deep place within, we immediately flip into the most profound anguish and shame. It's an indicator of the actual stature and glory of human sexuality. So I don't know what else to do as a pastor, except create a culture in a church where people can be honest. And they can come clean on what's not going well and how they're really doing. And we can live in honesty together.

That's good. And nobody is, we're not polishing. We don't come to church to polish our righteousness. We come to church to open up about our brokenness. Yeah, that's good that you said that. I honestly think that a church is always going to be the reflection of their leadership. And the fact that you said creating a culture of honesty, because I think that if our leaders are honest about it,

the congregation will too. That's good. The Christians I respect and trust the most are the ones who I know. I have some actual insight into how they're really doing. And it's one of the reasons

I love you, Preston. You're not posing. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I could tell you anything. I'll tell you everything too. I just text you a very intimate, in text last week. And so, yeah, I feel the same way about you. Yeah. Thank you. You've been a great,

great mentor in my life. Pastor Ray. Ray Orland, thank you. I'm so excited to spend some time with you this fall. If you haven't gotten this book, especially men out there, I've talked about this book. I've actually referred this book on the podcast. We'll have it in the show notes. We have it in a show notes, but get the death of porn by Ray Orleans. It's a great book. Great read. I think it can help you and like you said in the last episode, generations to come, you being set free from born. You know, this time we've just shared together, we've shared with many other people.

And I think what's happening right now is there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people who love you more right now than they did an hour ago. Because you gave all of us the privilege of being, close to you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I definitely feel that way. Peace out, y'all. All right. Love you, Ray. With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively,

artwork by Hop and music by Swoop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.