With The Perrys - “What’s Love Got to do With it” with Jada Edwards

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

We all have “love issues.” John 13:35 says that love is to be our identifying mark as Christians – not our wisdom or spiritual gifts or activity – but being a loving person is difficult.   Jada Edwards has a new book out called A New Way to Love Your Neighbor that she wrote out of a season where she struggled to love well. The Lord revealed to her that she couldn’t be the originator of grace for other people. She needed God to reveal His love for her specifically, continually, so she’d be filled up with love to give.   Jada and the Perrys explore the definition of agape love in which the person initiating the love determines the value of the one they love. They talk about how Biblical love for others almost always requires decision – deciding to love – instead of affection. And ultimately, love needs wisdom to be effective. We need to slow down, pray, and ask Holy Spirit to guide us in how to love.   Scripture references: John 13:35 1 John 4:8 Connect with Jada: https://www.instagram.com/jada_edwards/   This Episode is Sponsored By:   https://gominno.com — Get your first month FREE when you use code PERRY at sign up. Take advantage of this web-only exclusive offer today!   https://policygenius.com/perry — Compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. Check out A New Way to Love Your Neighbor: Be Curious, Free, and Brave―How to Transform your Relationship with God and Others – https://www.amazon.com/New-Way-Love-Your-Neighbor/dp/1087789184 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Saints and names. How are you? What's up with y'all? Hope you're blessed. Hope you're highly favored. Like Mary, Christ, Mary's mom. It's Jesus' mom. Yeah. Remember? I don't know how you feel that, you know, the world ain't.

Because this episode came out later, but like yesterday, people thought the world was about the end because it was like the whole week of like the rapture and stuff like that. Guess what? We're still here. Bucko? This is the thing. I didn't know that was a thing until I was on threads. I just kept seeing a lot of people talk about the rapture.

And I'm like, why are we talking about the dog? Like, what's going? And I didn't pay a lot of attention to it because I just don't have the energy. I'm close to 40. And I'm getting to that point. I don't just care about stuff. It's just like, that's stupid. But at the same time, it was like, I don't know.

I can't explain what I mean. Yeah, I saw people on TikTok buying crackers and water and trying to find a shelter. And I'm like, wow, y'all really believe this. I mean, y'all don't believe Mark and Matthew? That's, or the old. It's good. It's giving. I think most people knew it was a sham, but for those who didn't, it gives, I don't, I'm going to say this lovingly, you're not reading your Bible.

Or you're reading it and not believing it. I know we're not talking about, can we just briefly talk about why do you think so many people believed it? They're not reading their Bibles. But I think it's something under there. Well, I think also people are addicted to conspiracy and prophecy. and so they might think that somebody has a special insight or prophetic word. He coming in a Hyundai. That is distinct from God's authoritative reveal word.

And so they're leaning on the word of a so-called prophet rather than the actual scripture. Yeah, because I think that we love getting information that that's not in the scriptures because we just love like secret things. Yeah, it's noxicism. Yeah, it's so different than in the garden. It's like, ooh, I'm in the, I'm in the, I'm in the, I'm in the, uh, that's, I'm in the, uh, divine in crowd. And I know something that you don't know. So I'm going to get cans. And why are you getting cans? Shouldn't you be preparing to go? Yes. If you get in cans, that should be an indictment on your faith. That's actually a very good point. That's just me. Yeah, it's just, it's just Eve.

Eve wanted to have knowledge that God didn't give her. To this day, we want knowledge that God did not give us. But what we do know is that Jada Edwards is here with us. We know that. Not buy one can or cracker. I'm not preparing to stay. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. We're going to be called up in the sky. Go. Can't make your stove is off. How you, how you doing

Mrs. Mrs. Edwards? I am blessed. Anna E. Polly favorite. And your outfit drippy. Yeah, it is.

Oh, well, thank you. It matches the tone of the couch and things. This is a napping couch. I don't know how y'all having conversations because I feel it's calling me into it.

It's a suction. And people don't know, it's modular. So when it's actually all together, it's like this little corner is like a corner and that little corner.

It's a bit like, y'all would be like, where is she? She's in that couch. Yeah. A lot of things are in this couch. We've lost a lot of things in this couch, and I don't think we're ever going to find it.

I'm sure. It's a person in here. What you lost? What you lost? Oh, you want to know the craziest thing I lost in the couch. Have you cleaned it? Is it just in there? No, no, it's not food.

You went on the craziest thing I lost in the couch? Your wedding ring? No. Your phone? No. Your mind? One of my pistols. Preston.

I'm dead serious. So at any moment, something could just bang. I just did. I found it. I found it. I took a nap on the couch and I'm like, where? Napping with a gun is insane.

We live in the forest. You want to know why? What are you afraid? You think you're still in Roseland. You want to know why? You want to know why? I'd be having my pistol on me a lot. I'd be going out by the little trail and it'd be coyotes.

I saw a bobcat. I said, why do I live? You think it's going to walk in the house? You think it's going to walk in the house? You think it's going to walk in the house. It's not going to walk. in the house, I walked in the house and I was so tired. I didn't even take my shoes off. I just fell on the sleep on the couch and I didn't even have my, I didn't realize I had my gun on me and it

kind of slipped out. You got the new book. I feel so much judgment. What we talking about Ms. Jay there was. You got a new book. Making sure I'm not about to roll up on a pistol. I want to read your book accurately. The pistol is, I've been found it. It's been recovered. I just, I just think that's so crazy. And that's why he waited to say that on it on here, because we wouldn't have no real conversation. Ms. Jay and Erwin's her book is called A New Way to Love Your Neighbor, Be Curious, Free, and Brave, how to transform your relationships with God and others. I don't never like when people ask the question of why you wrote the book. I'm not going to lead that way because it's just like read the book and you'll know why she wrote it. But one one scenario

you talk about in the beginning of the book is how you realize not merely that you struggle with love, but that your struggle with love was affecting and spilling over into your marriage relationships and all other relationships. And I have always felt like a person where I'm like, I can teach. That's a gift. I can think. That's a gift. I can create. That's a gift. I can execute. That's a gift. Love? Love is difficult for me and always has been difficult for me. So I think reading your book and hearing your insight and your instruction is both convicting, challenging, but also, what's the word? Relatable, you know. And so I guess tell us about that time where you was praying about your husband and the Lord rebuked you. Listen, because if you have not prayed for the Lord to fix your spouse, what are you doing?

Okay. Stop trying to come out the gate godly. We come out the gate saying, get him. And I remember one of many times where I was really trying to give something to the Lord and tried to make it godly. Lord, I just want you to strengthen this marriage. You could do that by getting kind of way together, you know. And it was a strange moment where I just felt this impression where the Lord was like, you really have a love issue. And I was like, yes, I want to be more loving.

I'm trying to da-da-da-da-da. He's like, mm-mm. He's like, you right now, even... in love what you want me doing your marriage more than you're loving me. You're loving this desired result more than you're loving me. Like you've got some things out of order. So that thing, sometimes I think the Holy Spirit doesn't give you this final conclusion. He just gives you a thread. And I was like, what you mean? You know, I love you. He's like, mm-hmm, but it's time to take it up a notch. And so it really started a whole journey because I,

I don't know that anybody, after spending time with me, would come to the conclusion that it is so loving. I don't think wise, teacher, leader, decision maker, sure. And so then I wrestled with, is this personality? Lord, you know, I'm not like that. He's like, yeah, but love is not personality driven. It's not even acts of kindness. It's, this is deeper.

It's identity. It's calling. And that idea of loving the Lord your God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength. I like that Mark Ed's strength and loving your neighbor, coupled with Jesus saying, they literally will know you are my possession because of how you love. Things I've known my whole life. But then he started replacing that. He said, not because of how will you teach, not because of who comes to Bible study,

not because of the wisdom you dropped when somebody, he was like, it's the love. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Something illogical that doesn't make sense with the way the world does it. That's how they will know you belong to me. And so that base level understanding that this is my identifying mark as a Christian, not my accomplishments and what I achieve and what love, I was low-key sad. Because I was like, but what about?

He's like, that's cool. Yeah. But it's love because back to 1st Corinthians 13, he was like, even the Bible studies and the teaching and the conversation and the counseling, those are clinging symbols, what I love. And they're good things because the gifts Paul was talking about were good gifts from the spirit. He's like, but they're not, those things are supposed to be pointers to this bigger thing. They're not the main thing. And so that, to say the least, was very disruptive for me. That's interesting.

I think what I hear you saying is, you know, a lot of times people want to ask the Lord to do things for us. But a lot of times it is contingent on the love that we have. Like for me, when I first got married, I think it was my second year. I said the same prayer that you said. I was like, Lord. You safe. I said, you got to fix this woman. Appreciate it.

And that's because, you know, the first two years of, our marriage was really, really hard. And the second year, I kind of felt like the Lord was like, yeah, you are more like a Pharisee to Jackie than Jesus. You, you're mad when she doesn't want to talk when you want her to talk or whatever. What the truth is, you're really not loving her right. And I realize when I started loving her right, a lot of the things that I want naturally came out.

And so I guess my question to you is when you feel like the Lord kind of checked you, did you start seeing your love as your love increase those things start to naturally you know make your husband respond better make your husband you know be the man that you like what did your love and you loving better do for your marriage yes yes to that question it invoked a different response because and i do get to this in the book i like understanding people and that that's the curiosity part of and learning. But there was a re-anchoring that I needed, even after 20-something years in marriage and many, many decades walking with the Lord. And that was, do I really understand how God has loved me? If I rushed to interact differently and I had not first internalized, really internalized how God

has loved me. Because that probably took a while. And I was a little disappointed that I really did not understand how he had loved me because he it's there's this generic love and then there's this specific love that God has for you that that feels all of these gaps and so I can go try to be more gracious to a person I'm not naturally a grace oriented person I'm a get it together suck it up you'll be all right seeing no more you know because that's how I like to learn Yeah. And that in my mind was always like, well, God, this is how you teach me. And then, for example, in this journey, he was like, that's not the only way I teach you.

You may resonate with that because he said, but think of the times you've been uncomfortable when I didn't punish you and you deserved it. That discomfort when I continued to bless and you really weren't qualified. Like those moments that were not natural to me is what needed to show up in relationships. But you just can't start to be more of the thing until you realize this is what God is giving you. Because then you need to be more of a pass-through than the source. I can't be the originator of the grace. I have to be like, oh, this is how I've received it.

And then here you go. What I love. Why you make that face back? Because 17 things popped in my head. I won't, I'll say too. Find something for your kids to watch that line with what you believe can be hard nowadays. You want to find something fun, something that they can enjoy without all the crazy stuff, and that's what Meno comes in.

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I think what I love about something you said is that it took time. Because I think naturally we all want to be sanctified very quickly. It can be really uncomfortable to feel broken for prolonged periods. I think even the way I'm built is like I want to get it right now. And I get it. I want to get it right now. No. Yeah. Let's get to it.

Yeah. So it's like it can feel disheartening to feel like, the pace of my growth is just not as quick. But it also is encouraging to say that like, oh, no, if you don't love greatly after the revelation, you got the revelation on Monday and you want to be Apostle John on Thursday, like maybe you're not doing it wrong. You're just a part of the process. Like that's the process.

But with that said, I think even as we process trying to take note of God loving us and all the stuff, I feel like that can feel. feel like something we acknowledge mentally. But what does it actually look like to experience or appropriate the fact that God loves me? You get what I'm saying? Like we sing the songs. Like he loves me. And it's just like, how do I get that here?

What is? I know the Holy Spirit produces it. But tell us. Because we have a love problem, Jada. We do. And that's why, you know, I do. When I say this general universal love, God so love the world, that's huge. That plays a part. But then there's God so love Jada. God so love Jackie. God so love Preston. That for me is where I needed to dig in.

Because the theological truth of God loving the world and sending his son and all the things, that is not hard for me to wrestle with. But he had to unpack specifics for me. This is how I have loved you. That's good. And sometimes it's kind of this spirit of David. Like he's bringing things back to your remembrance. Do you remember this thing that should have significantly altered you as a child? Remember that? My goodness.

I allowed it, but also I covered you in it. I have loved you through that. Remember that? Remember when you betrayed? Because we love to talk about when been betrayed. Remember when you were the betrayer. Remember when you disappointed, when you broke your word, when you changed, this is how I loved you. And so God will run you your story.

That's what he has to do. That's great. Because those are the things that you will not naturally think of when you think about, you know, how we love others. And so that was the process for me. He walked through things. Remember when you thought you weren't qualified for this, when you struggled with insecurity as a parent? When you, like, Jada, I keep coming at you with love. and have you really embraced that or do you just, because I'm, again, grace is something I have to be intentional about.

Have you really embraced that or do you just know it cognitively and you still live in like I haven't loved you? You know what I'm saying? Like God can love you through an insecurity and put you in some spot that you know you shouldn't succeed it in. You succeed in it. You know it was the love and grace of God. But should the next thing come up, we often really. respond like he didn't love us through the last time. Same insecurity.

He's just like, when does my love like take effect? That's good. And go past the moment. Why are we starting back over every time? And so I realize that, you know, I keep score. And I was like, but Lord, I still messed up. He said, okay, but remember, we worked through that. And it kept coming up.

And that was important because that's how I treat relationships. I was not able to let people build on growth and love. I was like, but still, let's start back over. He's like, why? You do that with me. We got to fix it over here before you can fix it over there. So receiving God's love can be very much asking him to specifically reveal in your story, whether it's in the past or in your day-to-day life, how he's loving you well. Because you need the tangible experiences and reminders because that is often the way he's going to call you to the.

love. That's great. That's good. I love that. That's good. I don't, I saw what you did. That was amazing. That was amazing. What I hear you essentially saying is that God has a covenantal love with this church, with his people, right? And one of the things that I used to always have to do as an evangelist when I was talking to unbelievers was, if God is love, why do I have to do this? And it's like, no, he doesn't have a covenantal love with you. Like you don't belong to him. And so one of the things I've always had to do it. And my Christian walk just remind myself that a covenant is a binding agreement. God is committed to loving me through the person of his son Jesus Christ. And I think sometimes just like, you know, people who are struggling in their faith, like we just struggle with the

idea that no, God is committed to loving us regardless of what we do, you know. And I've often struggled with that. And that was ministering to me because sometimes I just forget that he's, he's married to his church. And I'm a part of his church. Yes. You know? It can be left in the worship lyric and be left in the sermon and not taking into your heart to live out every day. Like maybe there was some source of shame that you struggled with. God's love healed, redeemed, restored, all these things.

But how often do we still have that thing in our head when God is like, but I've covered that? And so, but the shame now has become a bit of a comfort blanket. because now I'm just used to carrying that. But it also, unfortunately, gives us, I don't know, permission or maybe an inclination to keep the same score with other people. I still carry my shame a little bit. So remember that time you heard my feelings? I'm going to carry that for you.

I got you. I mean, it's just what happens. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I had a question, too. Hold on, no. I don't think y'all heard what you. I heard what you said, but I want you to say it again. You're about shame.

and you carry your own shame, which then translates to you expecting other people to carry theirs. Say that one more time. Yes, because this is how I treat myself. So this is how I'm going to treat you. I still carry my shame. And the Lord's forgive me about it.

I ran around, lift my hands, got saved. However, it's so intrinsic to my identity. I still keep it. So that means when you have heard me and offended me, I'm going to make sure that a little bit you still reminded that I stay with you even know. Because that's what you do to yourself. Because I remind myself, I guilt myself.

And in fact, why does God still love? Why has God? Because the next wrong thing that happens, you're like, it's because it is. He says, see, every time you connect something I'm doing with something I've forgiven, then that means you didn't believe the forgiveness and the love over there. Get out of my house. That's what we do. We keep pulling it up.

So he's like, it's not really gone then. Wow. But then that becomes the lens for which we function with other people. So what you're essentially saying, it's kind of hard to give grace to people if you don't give grace to yourself. She ate me up. You can't do it. How?

Because love is God, right? It's his nature, it's his attribute. He's the source. I cannot originate. I'm having a hard time being the pass-through. She can't originate it. So if I am dealing with my own shame and guilt, because I don't fully believe that God has redeemed

or restored or forgiven or whatever, there's no way I can just keep minding myself and you got a clean slate. That don't even make sense. It's not even logical sense. So then people like, what's wrong with you? And you're like, I don't know. You sent me a crazy text in 2018 and I don't know really what to do with it.

We still hanging out. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, how could you ever? Like, I'm still thinking about that. I know you got a question about that. No, you can go ahead. You can go ahead. I want us to stay here, but my question, I think, well, yeah, it could be later on. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I say this would, yeah, I very, much. Delor showed me maybe a year or so ago. And it'd be crazy where it's like, this stuff has been in my heart and you just waited to tell me, I guess, when you thought I could handle it. And he, it was like, the Lord was like, you, you hold onto a fence. Like you're a, you can be a really bitter person. And I never felt like I was a bitter person because to me, you do something you just did to me. So it's kind of like, but it's like that's, that's actually the problem. is that, yeah,

it's just like, oh, that. Like, I just move with an all bet in my life. Whereas like, all bet,

I got you. Cool. Like, if that's how we move and that's how we move it. And it's like, I take a note. So if you did something

that I thought was crazy or kind of bogus, if you did something that was offensive, I put it in my pocket and in my mind because I don't feel angry,

I think that means I'm not offended. But it's like you don't feel angry because you have a struggle feeling anything. But you are angry. You understand what I'm saying? But I think a lot of us do that. Yes. How do you, how do you do you do do what's right?

So you got to go back to this question at the risk of this turned into therapy. Hey. You got to ask yourself, do I believe God has put something I've done in his pocket? Do I believe there's things in my life that I've done that I know I'm forgiven, I know theologically, but the stuff still come up and I'm like, that's probably because in 97, you know, like, because when we start connecting those things, we're missing the power of God rewriting our story because typically that is a projection or that is the evidence of some struggle we have with the Lord.

Like there's something you haven't fully forgiven yourself for or every time something good happens, you're like, I can't believe this happened and I did this and got, like we're still connecting it to something. And that becomes a lens through which we see relationship. Because if you feel fully forgiven for everything and you've processed the many offenses toward God, that begins to inform what you can tolerate with other people.

Jesus. That's good. Because he don't cut us off. He don't just pretend we didn't exist. Like he's still engaging. We sleep in the garden. He's like, want to try again? That's good.

Want to try again. Oh, you know what you want to leave my church? You wouldn't feel asleep on me when I was in by work. You know, like he always re-engaging. He's never kind of putting it to the side. Like, I'm going to let you have a good day today, but I didn't forget, you know. We bring our own stuff up. It's not God.

I mean, for learning. But he's not like, you need to be grateful because you remember what you did when you were seven. So there's usually some tie to where I have not fully accepted like the ridiculous grace of God. Because it really doesn't make sense. And we need things to make sense, which means that his grace in our mind has to have a limit or has to have some logic tied to it. And then it starts showing up in how we deal with others. It's just a hard thing to process. We don't even process it for ourselves.

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we're all kind of products of our past experiences. And so I think a lot of times we go into our Christian walk being products of our experiences when we had when we were kids, you know. And I think for me, I noticed lacks of grace that my father probably gave me or shame that my father invoked on me. And I kind of came into my relationship with God, projecting things onto God, what I what I experienced my whole life, right? And so I guess my question is, you know,

how should we examine our past and say, how is our past showing up in the present of how we receive God's love? Do we believe wrong things about God because of what we experienced our whole life? My mom loved us, father loved us, et cetera. And so how would you examine that? that's such a great question. I actually dedicate a chunk in the first part of the book to parent wounds,

because particularly fathers. Mothers couldn't create a wound, but they are not the first, they're not a type that points us to the father, the way our earthly fathers were designed to. Absent father, abusive father, highly achieving father. It doesn't matter. If he was human, he was imperfect. Right.

Was he of the humankind? There's a gap. He could love Jesus, have y'all in truth. It doesn't matter. There's a gap. And so taking time to figure out the impact of that gap can be pivotal. Because that's, I mean, my dad, who is amazing, he's reading the book. He called me talking about, do I owe your apology?

He's so humble. He is so sweet. He's gotten older. When we were younger, I'd be telling my kids. I don't know who his papa always is. Because that wasn't the daddy. Right. But no, we were talking about it.

And I just said, no, you agree. You did best what you know. Hadd us in church, love God. But he was an achiever, which spoke to me as an achiever. Like, we don't get bees in this house. We win first. Like, so that translated to achievement is love. When you're killing it.

Yes. Everybody's in a good mood. You know, what did you get on their paper? What did you get to? track me, which place you come in. And it wasn't that I didn't feel, I didn't feel unloved when I didn't get first place, but I felt, I was like, it's cool being the best, you know, and it spoke to me anyway, as my wiring.

So then that shows up in my relationship with God, because now I feel like God is more proud of me when I teach well than he is if I feel like that message didn't go well. And he's like, but you didn't ask me what I was trying to achieve through the message. you're thinking you're killing it and when you do, that's probably when you wasn't killing it. You know, or I'm glad I feel he's proud of me when I keep showing up

and I keep serving and I started this thing and look what I'm doing through the church or I counsel somebody today or whatever. And he's like, okay, but also you were snappy with your kid. So it's a deconstructing of like, here's what I thought love was and projecting that on how I interact with God

because at the risk of being repetitive. It's going to show up in my relationships. But it's a big deal. It is. It is. It is. It is. Create a gap whether they intend to or not.

Yeah. And the depth of that gap and the specificity of that gap, all of that has to be given to the Lord. Yeah. When David says at the end of Psalm 139, he spends the whole Psalm making the case that he cannot escape God's presence. You search me, you know, when I sit down, when I rise up, where can I go? You know, for your feeling wonderfully made every women's conference thing. But he gets to the end of that Psalm and he says, search me. Like, logically it doesn't make sense.

He's already made the case that God doesn't need to search him. God knows everything. Yeah. But he's saying, search me and show me. You know me better than I know me. Search me and show me myself. Because, God, there's some things that are in me and that are true about me that I'm not even aware of. So that work is real.

That is not counseling and therapy didn't make that up. That's been the truth where God is like, you need to see your. yourself. And his grace, he will show you what you can handle about yourself over time. That's good. Praise the Lord. But you need it. It's an important, important work because, I'm going to say this last thing. When you receive a sermon, a good message, a good truth, a solid truth, does not hit every person the same way. Because if I'm still angry about my father, that truth about being generous or kind of whatever is going to hit somebody differently than a person who has a good relationship with their father. So if you just take a solid truth and you don't let it do a specific

work in you, like what does that mean for me? This is the Bible, but in light of my story, how does that need to show up? Then you'll just be walking around knowing a bunch of scripture and no transformation because you have not let it penetrate into your story. That's good. That truth that that that pastor is trying to teach you or somebody's trying to, they're trying to cast this net over a broad audience. The believer has to say, okay, that's true. How is it true for me. And that's when God is like, okay, let's get into your story, why this might be hard for you and not hard for you.

That's the beauty of the word. Because it's alive, it can speak to 90 different things in one building. Absolutely. But you have to do that work. You have to be responsible and aware enough that here's the truth. Lord, search me. What does this mean for me? Otherwise, you'd be like, that was a good word.

That's good. Good word. Didn't I get past? You know, it didn't distill the stuff down. It didn't do anything, right. It seems like it would be unnecessary, but I also think that speaks to the reality of the situation, which is in having a conversation about love,

I think we actually need to define it. Because even as we talk about love, people have their own framework about what that is. And in the book, you talk about how some people believe that love is romantic or love that is attached to a feeling. defined for us love biblically. And then maybe some of you should just rewind from the beginning and then think about our conversation about love with that definition in mind.

Okay. So the essence of agape, which is I'm going to stay there because that's the New Testament call. There's different kind of loves expressed in the Old Testament. But the New Testament call for the believer that we love God is this truth of agape. that means a divine benevolence that God has given us, a divine charity. It means that the person who is loving determines the value of the one they love, not the other way around. You don't determine how I love you. I determine how I love you.

It is divine benevolence. So it's not earned charity. It's like, I'm just deciding this is the value that I assign you. Yeah. So it is, and when I charity, in a lot of the older versions of the older translations used charity for love. And I used to not get it. I'm like, that's like giving somebody, a homeless man on the corner.

And God's like, no, because that's giving. That's bestowing. It's blessing. And that is really the mark of agape love. It's not just kindness or do you not get on my nerves. Like, am I able to bestow blessing on you? Because that's what God did for us. He was like, you were enemies.

And I gave you a good gift. Yeah, you did. I gave you my son. So this idea of divine charity and benevolence, that the beholder assigns the value. That's huge. And lastly, I would say one of the other big defining things about agape is that it's an initiating love. Okay.

It makes the first move. So all these, right, that's what everybody's spirit. Everybody's soul, like, it's an initiating love. God so loved the world. That's not to cut you. I want you to continue. you, I just want to say we feel that way because that's scary. That's vulnerable and that's risky to be the initiator of love rather than responding

to what someone, how somebody loves you. Absolutely. Because we keep score. Yeah. Because even when we do initiate, we like, I said I was sorry for us five times. When is it they turn, Lord? Yeah. Yeah.

We'd be like, never. Wow. Yeah. Never, Lord. Yeah. Initiating love is hard. It is. Initiating love and assigning and saying that I have the, through the power of the Holy

Spirit, I'm called to assign a value to you that you cannot change, that nothing you do can change this value. Now, how I relate to you and engage is different than love. That's this, because if you're saying God so love the world, that means that there is a commonality between the believer and the unbeliever of God's love. He don't love you more because you got saved because Jesus died before you said yes to Jesus. Jesus died in case you thought you might want to say yes to Jesus. That's the kind of love God does.

I'm going to do mine first. Then I'm going to let y'all decide if y'all want to receive this. Like, it'll just mess you up. So that idea of love, when we take it out of acts of kindness or personality or time spent even, when you get to this fundamental, this is a benevolence and a charity and the idea of always assigning value to a person, even if they have not earned that value. And asking God, how do I have an initiating love toward that person? Those are the hard questions you're wrestling with. If you're asking, do I love the way God does? I think why that's such a valuable definition and perspective is because, again, we usually define love on our own terms rather than scripturally, even more specifically, like through Christ, the gospel.

And I remember reflecting on even how much movies and music and the Disney movies and how all of that oriented love in a way for me. And I think a big part of what it does is one, you see love as a self-centered kind of thing. So I'm going to love you if you love me back. Because it seems stupid to do it any other way. But it also, I think culturally, we think of love primarily as a feeling. You know, I love you because I feel lovely or I love you because I feel compassionate. But it's like when you get to the root or to the tutor in discipleship,

like in following Christ, you realize so many of his commands to love require decisions rather than affection. Absolutely. Speak to that. A couple years ago, the Lord started to put it on my heart to start an online community group from men because just going out doing events,

one of the things that I saw the most is just men. are lonely. We need community. We need to know that, you know, not only do God care, but there's people out there, men out there, other men who will love you, who cares. And so that's the reason why I'm starting an online community group called the Sons of Man. Well, we would talk about real issues, where we can have a real community, you know, well, we can have a safe place to come and just be men, vent. But also one of the main reasons why I started, you know, Sons of Man It's because I want us to see how Jesus' humanity relates to our manhood, right? God became man.

And so not only do I see you, but most of all, God sees you. And so in this community, we're going to be consistently reminded how we're seeing by a holy and a righteous God, how we're loved by a holy and a righteous God, and how we're sons by a holy and a righteous God. What you'll expect from this community group is realness. I mean, I'm always real on every platform that you see me on, but y'all are going to see a part of pressing that y'all don't see no else we're going to have real intimate honest transparent conversations that's only in-house um so social media twitter facebook instagram they're not going to get this

y'all going to get this not only that y'all going to get uh exclusive real face time with me well you know you can ask me questions in real time um and i can just you know give you answers in real time, you know, and so, you know, pop up live events or whatever around the country where only my Patreon people will be able to come to. And so I think ultimately what you will get is just exclusive access to me in a way that the other, you know, social media outlets don't have, but also you're going to get real honest, transparent conversation that's safe, but at the same time fruitful and edifying. So, yeah, can't wait to see that. Well, you know what I, this is what I have come to realize over the years.

If we gave marriage counseling to everybody, they would get it. Because marriage is when you realize love is what you do. Love is a decision. You're like, well, why y'all ain't telling us that? There's no special love for married folks in the Bible. It's love. Like, it's a decision to keep loving your spouse. It's a decision to stay in their friendship.

But we don't start to consider redefining law. until we in some typically marriage where you're like, oh, the feeling has faded. What we do now? Oh, well, love is a decision. Why y'all didn't tell me that a long time ago? Because if we treat friendship like that or any relationship God is bringing us into, it will change everything. It is very much decision.

And it can feel, that can feel sometimes disconnected or clinical. But you're like, man, if you have an emotional driver in there at all, think about your emotions what you feel from moment to moment that the people in your life are subject to your feelings like today I want to cook dinner if I don't want to feel like cooking dinner

wouldn't nobody eat because once a week every two weeks when I felt like it so it's just like it's just not even logical but it just feels so scary to avail ourselves to this kind of constant love But I think that's because we've equated love with certain action, certain behavior, certain access.

And that's not what it is. I can have limited access with you for whatever reason. Maybe there needs to be a boundary. Whatever. That does not affect my love for you. That means if I hadn't talked to this person in two years because this person was hurtful, I don't feel like they're safe, whatever. God can still say, hey, today I want you to pray for so-and-so. Cool.

Yeah. Got grateful because it's not that because I'm like, oh, I still value this person. If I found out they died or found out they got sick, still be heartbroken. Can we be best friends right now? We work. I don't know. But those are not the same. But if you keep equating love to feeling and expression and all those things, then you will not be able to love well with the person that you're not in constant relationship with.

That's good. You can forgive and not be best friends. You can love and still need boundaries. Like love without condition is not love without wisdom. That's beautiful. Like you can have it. That's really good. But we try.

We take the whole thing off the table. I'm going to steal that. We take the whole thing. So what happens when God is saying pray for this person? Yeah. Because at the end of the day, bigger than their offense is their condition of their soul. What if he's saying, hey, do you know how they're doing with me? I need to care about that.

Yeah. I love what you're saying because it's really just the gospel. It's the gospel. It's the gospel. It's the gospel. Because I think when we think about loving other people, we have to think about other people. But at the same time, we shouldn't think about other people as it relates to us. Yes.

Meaning like everything we sing in scripture about God's love is really not contingent on what we've done. Like even while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Right? Before we even gave our lives of the Lord. Right. Ephesians 2A says, we're saved by grace through faith, for it is not of our works, least any man can boast. And so it's not about good merit.

It's not of our efforts or whatever. God just shows, he decided to love us unconditionally. And I think as humans, that could just be a very hard concept. It is. It's hard to have this idea of, do I have to love somebody when they don't give anything back to me? Or do I have to love somebody when they don't, you know, when they treat me wrong? Like, it's crazy for us as humans to think that, but that's the way God loves us. But that goes back to the original point of the conversation, being able to receive God's love.

Because I don't think, some of us a little twisted, but I don't think most people are saying, I know God love me fully, I'm going to love you partially. I don't think most people are consciously saying that. They believe God loves them partially. So I'm just giving you what I think I got. Wow. Do you really know what that means? Yeah.

That Jesus hung on a cross so that one day you might decide to believe it. He didn't say the cross is yours if you say yes to me. Like the cross was done. It was a done deal. So people might have the choice to say yes. Like that is so counterintuitive to everything we know. but I really, really believe that we have not internalized what it means to have been enemies of God. And he was rucking chasing us down.

Because if you get it, when he tell you to send the text, it shouldn't lay you out. When he say check on the person, say happy birthday, make sure their mom all right, whatever it is, you know. Give them an extra. Give them extra. I know that's not what they earn, but just give them extra. Tip generously. Say hi to the stranger. be patient with the cashier.

See, like those things would not send us the way they do if we were constantly thinking when I had no knowledge of God, he was chasing me down. Because we don't want to chase nobody now. No. Wow. You just, I just think internalizing that love for God is a big deal. That's good. We love to run to the action.

I want to be nicer. Mm-hmm. How do you, how would you counsel those who, I've met, people in my life who think they are really loving. That was funny. Because you have those

I'm of the sort where it's like, no, I'm actually not loving. I just, I am, because I have the Holy Spirit, but I have to really work at it. I'm about to tell on my wife. She's a perfectionist. And so she wants to do everything perfectly. And so early, I almost

put on the last earlier, she was just like, y'all-a-di, throughout the years, yada, yada. But one thing that I think perfectionists don't realize is how much they've grown even in their love. And so I have to consistently remind her, Jackie, you're actually grown so much. But she wants to do everything perfectly, and your love ain't going to look like your rap skills at times. It's just not. It's just not. But you ain't where you were five years.

You ain't where you is five years ago. Amen. So stop trying to. I love languages. And that's not one of them. I don't have none of. Stop. Stop trying to perfect, you know, sanctification.

You know, she's grown. I appreciate that. Love you. What I was going to say is I am aware, I'm self-aware of how my love can be inconsistent and flawed. But I've met people in my life who are unaware of that. But there, it usually is the temperament of people who are gifted with hospitality. Yeah, yeah. They have a kindness.

They're nice and they will go above and beyond and do all the things. But it's like when you get up close to them, it's like, I don't think you're as loving as you think you are. Yeah, it's self-serving. So how do you help people also delineate between just because you did all the things at the church, just because you took the trash out, you know, you made sure that you stayed last, you did all the stuff? Was it love, though? How do you help people determine that? I try to ask people, is the behavior separate from the response from people? If no one says thank you, if no one gives you credit, if the church hurt your feelings, are you still taking out the trash?

Because you feel called to serve that way? Are you still letting people come over? If no one says, oh, she always let us come. what happens when the recognition goes away or for the person that it's hard to do that for? Because typically we can do that for people that we're in good standing with. But what happens when that one person that kind of rubbed you wrong, they still in the group, they still get to come over? You still make sure they got a place setting and you know their favorite food?

Like it's separating it from any kind of response or recognition. If it doesn't feel sacrificial and hard, it probably is self-serving. and good things can still serve self. Like, I need to be needed. I need to be at all the volunteer meetings because that's how everybody, what they're going to do without me, that. It's when you feel like you really have nothing to give. You're like, I'm having a bad day.

But before I could tell my friend I'm having a bad day, she texts me about her bad day. And God's like, okay, you go first. Girl, listen, so sorry. And I really want to save my day. And you're like, we'll get there. But right now, you say, I hear you, tell me about what happened. Can I hold my bad day for a minute because I need to love her well?

That's good. It's those things that are often hard. That's good. They don't feel good. Honestly, I could buy my husband a great gift that I think is amazing. And typically it's because it's something I like. Right? Because the stuff he's like, I'd be like, that's how you want to do?

We don't want to do a love. You know, because we still want to love the way. way we, what we can be acknowledged, and there's something reciprocal, I'm getting back from that. But man, when God is like, you know what he wants, he wants you to, he want a set of a notepad because he's still handwriting, half his messages. And I was like, no pen, office depot, we came to love. A little razzle down. Yeah.

But then you come home and he's like, you got my notepads. Okay. The grand gesture wasn't going to get that. I didn't get anything from that. You see what I'm saying? So when you are able to follow God's obedience to serve and honor and value others and there's no connection to what makes you feel good, what you want to put on your resume, you're starting to scratch the surface. I think that might be really helpful. I'm sorry.

You want to say something bad? Okay, go. Because I think all of us because of sin are always doing things to fill up our cup. Yes. You know? It's like we exist. Even things for other people. Yes. We exist with this perpetual thirst. And it's like whether I'm the person who is overly kind and it's self-serving, the acknowledgement is filling up my cup. Whether I'm the person who isn't kind because I am protecting myself, it's filling my cup.

And it's like I think that's why we always have to be reminded of what Jesus said to the woman at the well. It's like, I have water to drink that you know not of. And it's like that fullness in him, I think, is really the thing that we're lacking. But if we were full in him, we could exist in the world without needing people in a way that's inordinate. Does that make sense? That makes a lot of sense. It's like, I can't love you because it's back to what you're saying. I can't love you if I'm not receiving his love first.

Yes. And that idea of fullness, that's the word right there because it's like, If I'm full, like constantly aware, trying to stay in this fullness of God's love, how do I have room for a fence? I only have room for that if I'm not full. You see what I'm saying? If a fence is a pebble and I'm a jar, if my water is to the top, where the fence is going to roll out the top?

When I have room for that, I'm not full with the Lord. So that means I can hold on to what you say. You didn't invite me. you heard my feelings or whatever. Even real pain can be, I mean real traumatic things can be true and not something that's in me. I can be full and those things can be true. I can be working through it and it not be something that I'm carrying all the time that now is affecting the way I love others. That's good.

And fullness is hard. Yeah. That's good. Because the truth is it sounds good in theory, but do I really want? want to be fool, I kind of like having a little bit of beef. You know, it's just comfortable. I want to be so full. Somebody popped in my mind when you said that.

Well, because guess what? Somebody going to say, why you let them? Let me tell you something. The amount of phrases we have that speak to not being taken advantage of, say something about us as humanity. Don't take my kindness for weakness. Fool me once, but like, that's just, right. Right.

Right. We have a bent to say, you're not about to get over on me. Yeah. And God is saying, that's. That's because you're not fool. Because if you were fool, you wouldn't see it as somebody getting over on you. You would see it as their brokenness, they being broken, you got exposed to it. Carry on.

Yes. But to go back to Jackie's original question, like, because I love your response because I think what you're essentially saying is that real love is contingent on obedience and sacrifice, not how people perceive us, not how we're rewarded and all the things. I remember when I first became a Christian. I was a little rough around the edges. still a little rough around the edges, right? But I was, but...

Your beard ain't, huh. Come on, lions. And we rejoice. But one of the things, no, one of the, what, seriously, and this is, one of the things that, she can get on my nerves.

One of the things that frustrated me was how often I felt like the church did not recognize my sacrifice. Mm-hmm. Or my love is love. Mm-hmm. Because I kind of felt like the church, church in general, especially the church that I got saved in, had a very shallow view of what love was. So love looked like the person that smiled every single day. And it didn't look like Preston

who just broke all his Tupac CDs or have to come in this church and sit and be uncomfortable every Sunday with people judging me just so I can be obedient and be in community, right? And so, you know, speak to the person who feels like I feel like I am giving that sacrificial. you know, obedience type of love, but it's not recognized because all of this fake love. Can I add to that? Can I add to that? Yes. I think that is a common experience of husbands, of wives, of parents, of ministry leaders, where you do get weary with bearing up under the weight of loving your neighbor. So I just wanted to add that to it. Yeah, that's a really good question.

I think that when I'm feeling weary or overwhelmed or unseen or unseen or whatever the case may be, I have to pause and ask God to look in my heart. Dave said, search me. What's driving this? Why am I doing this? Is this what you've asked me to do, Lord, or have I decided that this is how love and service are going to look? what is the way you're leading me in this space?

Because if it's serving and showing up at church all the time, why? Am I waiting on acknowledgement or a leader to be like, oh, I see you? Because honestly, I'm like, man, if my heart is janky, stay home. Be with the Lord. Like you sitting up in there taking up a seat is nine points in heaven. Like, be with the Lord. But there has to be a freedom that says, I know I'm called to this assignment. This is how God wants me to serve this church.

So when people forget and they didn't put your name on the thing or they still saying stuff, you're like, okay. I'm going to deal with that separate from what I'm doing, though, because this is driven by God's direction for me. So what's driving it? Because even with my kids, I have a default way of parenting. I'm trying to be better, you know, conscious parenting. I'm like, oh, Jesus, I'm going to put you on the porch. Okay, but I won't get one. Everybody's going to get a sticker because today is a day.

And it's, I still have a default way of doing it. And I'm like, well, this is how I function. So God, you see, I'm showing up. I'm cooking dinner. I'm not being like some of these other mama. Look at me trying to, we have devotion. Yeah. Okay.

But when I was in the argument with my eight-year-old, because that don't even make sense that we, in this level of conversation. And she did not, we were, she was in a place. She's very strong will, cleaning up this room, getting this room together. And oh, my gosh, I could feel the emotions, ratcheting. My default is, you know what? You know how much I've done for you? How much I do for you? At the end of the day, if we're losing this, I'm going to go authority on you. Do it. Just do it, right? And that's okay for parents sometimes. However, that was a moment. I was so trying to control what I said

to her because I really am trying to not shame her for her curiosity and not translate all of that as disobedience as rebellion. I'm trying to really be like, trying to really be like, it's hard. So I went and sat in the car. And I was like, Lord, you got to watch my tongue.

What do I do? And this man, you know, Lord. The God man, huh? This man going to say, go clean up her room. I was like, who are you talking to? Me? I'm a mama.

She's supposed to clean up her. That's her responsibility. So I go upstairs She lay on bed crying No she was laying in bed mad She wouldn't even crying just quiet I just started cleaning up her room All of a sudden I hear crying

I turn around What's wrong? I can't believe that I'm the one That's supposed to do it and you cleaned up my room This whole thing My eight-year-old And the Lord was like this is what I do for you I ask things of you And when you're at the end of yourself, I'm going to do it.

We're going to try again. Y'all, let me tell you something. That story has come up in my mind with my husband, with friends, with colleagues. Like he just says, just do it. I do it for you sometimes. Everything ain't a lesson. Just do it. Sometimes the bigger impact is the unexplained grace.

Yeah. That's the bigger impact. Just do it. So those moments I have cleaned up her room many times before because I like a clean room But that's not why I was doing it Because I wanted her to do it

And he was like, just do it That's good And it shifted something I'm gonna buy you some Nike's It's a memorial Memorial Stone You're gonna buy her some Nike's? Just do it

Oh, just do it It's all right I got it I got it I got it I got it slow moment You'll catch it tomorrow And I can't tell you how many times

She's brought that up Well, okay, when I take my bed, look, I hung up my towel. And so even in those moments, because she's obeying, I have to not overly celebrate that she did what I asked. I'm like, give me a hug, girl. I say, you know if you're a towel on the floor, you still my favorite girl, you know, or whatever. And then I'm like, okay, now show me, but I have to be so intentional about not, we're not good because you cleaned up the room, you know. But listen, that, when you're old showing up for stuff and you feel like this is not. seen or you're always the one apologizing. You got to ask Lord, why am I doing this?

That's so encouraging because I'm going to clean my kid room today. I mean, you know, as led. But I think you answered the question. My question is so many different ways. But it's encouraging because I think what a lot of people can take away from that is if you feel like sometimes you're not seen, eventually real love is seen when it's modeled. Absolutely. What you did was you modeled. sacrifice you modeled love for her and her love was not contingent on her you know doing what you said

at that moment it was obedience to the Lord first which translated to you doing an act of service for her and she saw that and responded and it's probably changed so much and so like yeah if you out there and you feel like you're not seen just continue to model love and people who God want to see it they will see it yeah and ask yourself why you doing it because honestly I cleaned up their room many times but it was out of frustration. I'm tired of this room looking like this. Yeah. I like a neat room.

Yeah. That's not why I did it that day. Yeah. That's beautiful. We are going to talk about forgiveness, but I think before we get there, I just want to read something in light of even everything you just said, because I think it's important to remember who produces this. Like, you said it, but I want us to be reminded.

It's Galatians 522 says, but the fruit of the spirit is, it. is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control against such things, there is no law because I think, I genuinely believe that we all have a bent towards works righteousness. And so we hear, respond to the Lord and clean up the room. We hear, you know, send the text. We hear say hi to the strangers. And we immediately start to figure out and plan how to do that in our own strength. When it's produced by the story. spirit. So help someone know, like even if the Holy Spirit is bringing up things today on how you can love your neighbor better, help them know how to lean into the spirit and do the Spirit's work

in the Spirit's power. Pace. Slow down. If you slow down, and I'm speaking to myself, because I'm like, I'm trying to knock off a hundred things in a day, but I have to slow down and ask God, what do I do here? There are so many times where my natural response is not what he's asking me to do. And it's not that it's a sin. It's just not the most loving thing. Like I literally will be texting somebody on my team.

Did you send that thing? I'm still looking for the email. And I was about to send a text. I remember this a couple years ago, this whole text. First of all, when you say you're going to do something, do it and this whole thing. It's about to hit sin.

You can somebody say, first of all, Listen, it's not right I'm counting So I was about to hit sin y'all And the Lord was like, hold on Don't forget You know her mother just got diagnosed with cancer When's last time you talked

So I looked at the text above the one I was about to send And it was her saying You know, thank you for praying, that He was like, ask her mom's doing first You can still send that Yeah Had to copy paste, put it in the note And I just texted her

Hey, how was mom Phone rang? Oh my gosh, thank you so much for asking. This week has been hard. Da-da-da-da. Now, would it have been sin to send her their reminder of the worst you do? No. But it would not have been the most loving thing.

And that would have landed on a person that was broken in the moment. That is not something, I don't care how long you walk with the Lord. You're not going to know that without the spirit. The spirit is like, don't forget. But she just said to you. You see what I'm saying? So there is something to be said about pace and everything around us works against that.

To slow down and let the spirit say what he's trying to say. And you want to buy the person, you know, a diamond necklace and they really just want sandwiches. Like you just, you're not asked, it's to slow down. God loves his people more than you ever can. Yeah, that's good. And he just gives you specific things to do if you would slow down. How do I do this well?

What do I do today, Lord? And I can't I tell you how many times. And I know the Lord's always been saying it. I just wasn't always listening. How many times. And people would be like, I can't believe you remember that. And I tell them straight up, I didn't. I didn't.

I was about to ask you, the Holy Spirit told me. That's good. So they can see for themselves, he will do it. And in the slowing down, you ain't just sitting there scrolling. Right. You're praying. You're submitting yourself underneath his lordship in those moments. And that's why he's guiding.

because and it takes a mindfulness. It's like you know your weakness and that's why you're praying, right? But if you don't know your weakness, then you're not going to pause and pray. Because I experienced something even before where it's like I was going to do something for somebody

that felt very sacrificial, but I also knew that a part of my heart wanted them to praise me for it or esteem me for it, but I knew it and I said, but I knew it also needed to be. So I'm not like, oh, I'm not going to do it because, you know, I'm prideful. It's like, no, I want to do this good work, but Lord, purify my intentions. Like, help me do this with no expectation of any praise or anything in return.

Help me do this because it's good to do and it honors you. And so it's like that pause then helps you to come into situations empowered where you're strengthened to do the thing that you actually cannot do. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like if you do it and they don't say anything, you're like, I'm good. I already got straight. I got straight on that before I did it. Because it's giving, I took his yoke upon me.

Yeah. But also what I hear, Ms. Sheda, in the slowing down is that we can properly discern every situation, every relationship, that we can actually have more opportunities to walk in wisdom, to walk in love. Because, like, I teach this in evangelism all the time. Like when Jesus told the disciples, when they said by them tools and say be wise as serpents, by harmless his dubs, he's essentially saying

go out and discern how each person needs to hear this truth. Right? And I think a lot of times when we just doing what we think it's right, it can be out of a good intentions. But if we're actually not being wise with every single relationship, it's actually not loving because everybody is going through different stuff,

different trials. And so the way somebody right received, like how you talked about the text, it's like, yo, like it wasn't unloved. But the way she would receive it would be. So slowing down just allows us to walk in wisdom in every situation. And a lot of times we need, like our love needs wisdom to be effective. Absolutely. And to Jackie's point, sometimes the act itself is not changed.

Yeah. But God's changing your heart about the thing. So if it gets overlooked or nobody says it, or you come do the grand gesture and they tell you what you could have done better. If your heart ain't right. Yes. That's our 10-year-old. Y'all had to do.

You know what I had to do? You know what I'm saying? That's what you get up. But the goal is, the goal isn't, don't be unloving. The goal is love divinely. You can do things that are not unloving, but they are also not divine love. They're not, you know. And it's, I cannot tell you how small and minuscule the Holy Spirit gets.

But it translates to people differently. I'm working with a team a few months ago. I think I talked about this in the book. It had to be a year ago conference team. We run around as rehearsals and sound checks and everybody's running crazy. And in my mind, because I'm a little social person, I was like, oh, I can't wait. Conference is over. I'm going to take them to a nice lunch.

We're going to kick it. I'm going to appreciate all these women that are da, stod, days, and lunch. And the Lord was like, go get them some sandwiches because they haven't eaten all day. I was like, I'm going to get somebody to do that. But also, I'm about to play in this lunch because that's what I like. He was like, go get the sandwiches. So I left when they got the sandwiches, came back, waiting on somebody to be like, sandwiches, you know. I don't know if anybody would say that.

Nobody. Nobody. But about an hour later, we still running around and people are flying through the ground. And they were like, one by one. Who's this food for? I was like, it's for y'all. Oh, my God. Food and gone.

That's it. There was no meeting. Who got the food? Mr. Eddie, you got the food? Thank you so much. Oh, my God. Nothing. But the Lord was like, but that's kindness. Kindness is intentionally meeting a need. You putting the lunch together, that's great. And they're tired, they're hungry. And it was no big thank you. But them sandwiches were gone in 30 minutes because people were hungry. And so it's that kind of things that will feel very insignificant where people will just be like, oh, I feel love. And they don't know who he was.

It doesn't matter. God was like, but you're my tool. You want to be used, right? I'm trying to use you. So people feel this love they can't explain. That's good. Because I've always reflected on how Jesus' first miracle at the wedding when he turned the water to wine,

he just stood in the back while someone else was praised for his work. And I've just always been like, oh, I think that's what you want us to do. It's like they praise the hosts. You brought out the best wine and he's just in the back content that, you know, the disciples saw what he did, but the majority did not. But I also think I'm always, always having to remind myself, the Lord sees you and he will acknowledge you one day. You will be rewarded.

We don't talk about rewards enough. You will be rewarded. That's just a caveat. Yeah. Before we end, we got to touch. on forgiveness. Okay. Because in the book, you talk about what Jesus has said to Peter.

Peter over here like, hey, man, you know, somebody knocked me up across the head. How many times are I supposed to forgive these people? I'm Peter. We're awesome Peter. Yeah, I'm a little, I'm Peter, Peter. I got a little buck in my system. Like, you hit me, I'm gone. That's why I like the chosen version of Peter.

I was like, that chosen version of Peter looked just. about the passion Peter was a little, he was a little hefty. He looked like he'd eat a lot. Yeah. The chosen Peter's like, okay, you do push her. You look like you would cut somebody here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's going to get with you.

Yeah, but it's like, I can see, humanly speaking, he's like, now, there has to be a cap on how many times. What's my lid? I let somebody hit me now. Jesus over here like, mm-hmm. Turn out of the cheek. 77 times seven. Right. And we are out here like, I ain't got half two cheeks.

So on the third time, you're saying I'm good, right? I can do what I need to do. my main question is hmm because I'm trying to think very broad I think there's two scenarios so take it however you want you have the person who does need to because we all sin against each other

so it ain't even got to be super egregious I think even in marriage in a 24 hour span we might have maxed out on 77 depending on how my standard is for you but it's like you get what I'm saying like I think we think 77 times seven It's like, oh, they did something bad.

It's like, no, like, you got irritated because they didn't acknowledge you when you got in the room. And now you're offended and you're sitting against. So I'm saying, there are sometimes where we have to be forgiving continuously. And that does not mean that there needs to be a break or a breach in the relationship. And so how to navigate even the dynamic of continuing to just release people of whatever offenses they have. But we also have those who might be in abusive or unhelpful, unhealthy, unhealthy relationships who might assume that forgiving 77 times times seven or whatever means that you should be in close proximity

to the offender. However you can speak to both realities, I think would be wise. So offense obviously can be on a spectrum. And there is one aspect of that as believers where we are trying to minimize what offends us. That's just lifelong marathon spiritual growth goals. That's good.

I'm trying to be less offended by stuff. because I have yet to meet people who wake up going, oh, I can't wait to go get food for myself and accidentally forget to get it from my husband and see what that. Like, nobody's doing that. People just peoplin. They just out here trying to be their best person

and we're getting the byproduct of whatever they don't do well. And so it's just, it's so not about us. And so the quicker I can let that go, that kind of becomes what I call short-term cycles. You know, you're just like, okay, I get it. You need to acknowledge it. You don't suppress it. You need to acknowledge it because maybe a,

teaching moment for you and the Lord. Just like, ooh, okay, move and keep moving, you know. So that's a thing that you can progressively grow in. But then there's definitive offenses that can happen with abuse or trauma or pain or things like that, that the process of releasing and healing are in essence the same, but the timing is probably different. And I don't want anybody to feel like they're less Christian if they don't release a person that's caused them a lot of pain immediately.

Because that can take time. You should be able to do it immediately. There's a goal. But, man, God gives you grace. Because sometimes you've got to mull it over in your mind that you're no longer expecting that apology. And you're no longer expecting them to come explain it. And you no longer think they owe you.

And you don't blame the current state of your life on what this. But like, that can take time. Logically, we should be like, okay. But when people make people feel guilty for not been able to forgive quickly. I'm like, y'all have missed humanity. That's a process. Then the healing can't even start to the forgiveness happens.

So if it takes you six months or a year or whatever to really release that person's impact on your life, don't even try to think you're going to be healed the next month. Like then you have to say, if I loaned you a thousand dollars and the $1,000 is the egregious offense, I may have to it may take me some time to know I'll never get that thousand dollars back like to say you no longer owe it and when I see you not be like

I'm going to wear my thousand dollars right I see you got some money You got some Belizeiazza on I know that's about 1250 Yeah you got Jill X-A-L-X on Come out there check For sure J-LX Okay

Run them pockets On your head on your Right so it's You have to process that To release a person of an offense I have to deeply and fully acknowledge, not church, like church language, fully acknowledge they're never going to pay me back. And that's okay. God has more than covered the $1,000.

However, the reality is, if I am living check to check or I'm a millionaire, what that missing $1,000 means to me is different. So then I have to take time to say, man, this threw my bills off for a month versus maybe it didn't impact me that much. So that thing is separate than acknowledging I'll never get that back and I'm trusting the Lord for that. But now I've got to deal with reality. Yes. Maybe I didn't get groceries this month. Maybe it didn't affect me. But there are two different things.

Acknowledging that you don't owe it, that God's got it more than covered is different than walking through the impact of what it did. And both of those take time. I would love to say there should be a lot of offenses that we are able to do real time. The more we walk with the Lord. But man, there's some stuff that just hurts. It's some stuff you're not even, you're 42 before you realize that your mama said something when you was eight and it just jacked you up for your hope. You know what I'm saying? So I just think there needs to be some permission there.

God gives grace for that to know that that takes time for that sometimes. But yeah, the acknowledgement that this will never be repaid is one thing. Then the wrestling with the impact of that lack of repayment is two separate things. And would you say that someone who is processing and acknowledging and doing all the things that they should be, because I think some people feel like I have to reconcile to prove I've forgiven. Why you make that face? Because who said that? Because you can feel like if you have a friend breakup and you process the things and you did all the stuff.

you forgave, it's like, oh, why y'all not cool again? Why y'all not going out? Why y'all not connected? And it feels as if, no, I've released the debt, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want the relationship. Yeah. But you can feel like because I don't want the relationship, does that mean I'm still offended?

Yeah. Or is I'm actually just placing a boundary? I think it can be difficult in Christian spaces to delineate between space and wisdom and offense and forget where we just don't even know if we're doing the right thing. Yeah. Yeah, but staying mad about what I think you owe me is different than being in a process of how you've impacted me. So I can say, you know, pressing don't owe me that $1,000. And I know I've forgiven when I'm not mad that he got a raise, even though it was 10 years later and he never brought it up.

Like, I'm like, he doesn't owe it. It's done. It's non-existent. That is, those are signs of forgiveness. Like, I'm not even thinking about it anymore. And he just gave somebody else $5,000. I'm not even, like the two are not, I'm like, oh, cool, you know, that's different than saying next time he wants to go into business together.

I may not go into business with you. I don't know how I trust you with money. That might not even be about you. It might be about me. The Lord is working on my trust and that, do I, what's healthy for us? The Lord's not going to force me to be in financial relationship with you when I'm not healthy enough to love you well in the space. There's no merit badge for forcing myself to be like, we're going to.

be in a partnership again. That's the godly thing. And guys like, no, because you're not going to function well, right? So there's, their boundaries are, are not just for us. They're for the person, too. Guys, like, you cannot love my son or daughter well because they hurt you. Stay over there. That's good because they work both ways. It's not just protecting you. Sometimes God is giving you a boundary to protect that person. Yeah, because I think people often try to give you their definitions of forgiveness. How forgiveness is supposed to look like in their own mind. It's like, no, even our forgiveness should be colored with God's wisdom because God doesn't want us to, because God still loves me.

He doesn't want to continue to put me in a position that might wound me. And so I can release you while at the same time not rocking with you the way I rock with you. That's not sign of, you know, unforgivism. But agape, remember that divine benevolence, do I still want God's best for you? Yes. When I see you get promoted, when I see that the thing you did to me didn't derail your life and God is still blessing you and God, how does that make me feel?

That's good. Because that's how I know I forgive it. If I want your life to kind of hit a limit because of what you've done, that's not forgiveness. I'm like, great for you. Because we all think God's going to get people back that are harmless. Like, they're still doing good. Listen, vengeance is mine, said the Lord.

That's what he said. Which means it's not your business. Yeah. If I take it, how I take it, if you see it, not your business. It's mine. Because guess what? Where should my life be limited? Huh?

Because of what I did to somebody. I'm glad I'm glad them prayers didn't go through but again have I received God's forgiveness Do I feel forgiven by God When I'm not in church Do I feel forgiven by God When I haven't read my Bible this week

If I don't Then that's how I'm treating other people That's good So it's always a I think this book Is the book y'all need to get You need to read this With 1st John

You need to read this With Corinthians you need to read this with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. With the whole Bible. With the scriptures alongside you. But I just think this is a necessary, and I just want to land this plane that at the end of the day, the greatest commandments hinge on two things. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and some of us want to stay there. But to love our neighbor as ourselves.

And in first John, it also communicates if you don't love people, people. people, you ain't loving God. And so this is a major discipleship issue that I think I'm grateful that the Lord prunes you so that you can give us this resource. This is really great. Thank you for coming on. Thank you, Ms. Jada. Thank you, Ms. Jada.

Thank you, all, Perrys. All right. Bye, bye, bye. Peace.