With The Perrys - When Friends Leave the Faith

Episode Date: July 25, 2022

Friends are like family. Especially friends that have the same faith as you. So it can be devastating when a friend leaves the faith they once represented. On today’s episode, we talk about how to deal with it, including how to walk with friends that are “deconstructing.”   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Saints and A Hope you're well What it do, do. Well, I don't know. Somebody yesterday was telling me about the spray Because what I thought about was people washing dishes And then I thought about how Philip and Jasmine was over And they was talking about spraying the soap on the dishes. Yeah, I remember what made you think about that right now.

Because I thought about what people might be doing While they're listening to this. Not people watching, but people listening. Listening. That they might be washing dishes. Right. thought about what kind of dish soap they're using. You actually don't like washing dishes.

You like the dishwasher. Yeah. Why is that? I just feel like people who wash dishes with a dishwasher next to them is a little like crazy. You talking about me? I wasn't going to say you. But it's like you can actually just put the dishes in the thing and then just put

the little pot in and clothes it. This is my problem. Jackie like sitting there. One. No, I'm quick with it. Now let's do all the forks. It's efficient. It's like, this is my problem.

When y'all use the dishwasher, you loki got to wash the dishes before you put them in the dishwasher. That's not true. Yes, it is. You got to turn on the water. You got to rinse it off. If you got stuff with crust on it, you got to clean that. And that feels like a waste of my time. I don't clean.

What I do is I put them in there as is. And if they're not clean, a second time will do the job. That's why our water bill is so high. Hey. Because of you. Yeah, but I got time to do other things. Let's get into this topic. What are we talking about?

I'm going to ask you. What are we talking about? when friends leave the faith or when people leave the faith. So if someone were to say, let's say someone's listening to this podcast and they are not familiar with even Christian verbiage, because that's what that is. Yeah. How would you explain what that is?

Like, what does that mean? Yeah. So when someone who had a public declaration of them serving the Lord Jesus Christ and then repenting of their sin and becoming a Christian, becoming someone who follows Jesus and then later on they say you know what this decision that I've made to follow Jesus I realized that it was maybe the wrong decision is something that I don't want to do anymore and I'm choosing to be someone who doesn't follow God or God or maybe they decided to follow another God and so that's what someone leaving the faith means

You know what? I think in recent years I've experienced this more, whether in my own relationships or just honestly just like on Twitter and Facebook and stuff, like seeing, you know, public figures or whatever denounce the Christian faith they once confessed. Yeah. And it's interesting to me because I'm always really intrigued by what motivated them to do. that because there's so many different reasons you got people who are just disenchanted with the church with evangelicalism or whatever you got people who might have been introduced to an alternative teaching so even like people who like he were israelism most of them came out of church yeah you know what I'm saying and they're like uh-uh I found a a better teaching and so that's a leaving of

the faith and so I don't know what I guess what are some of the reasons you've heard people give for why they no longer want to be Christian. Yeah, I think it's this idea floating around or this ideology that that's teaching people out there that Christianity is oppressive. Okay. That serving Jesus isn't real freedom, but it stops you or prevents you of being your true and real self. and I've always, you know, kind of bucked up against that, I believe, lie.

Yeah. Because I think that in a lot of ways, and this isn't just to make like a blanket statement because I think in every case it can be different, right? And so I want to just first preface it by saying that. But I do think that there comes a time when Jesus, causes us to choose between him and the things that our hearts desire. And I think that if you find yourself in a wrong crowd that can articulate things in a, in a, in a, in a good way, they could convince you that, no, what you're denying about yourself is actually oppressing you instead of, no, like you dying for something or you, or you're letting something go for something.

better, right? And so I think a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people buy into this lie that serving Jesus it's holding me down. Yeah. Which is, I just, I just think it's a lie from the devil, to be frank. Yeah, because that's the first lie

in the garden, you know, is that, hey, there is more out there for me to have. One is that tree. He told me not to have. That got knowledge in it. of good and evil so i'm gonna need that and so i have to disobey you to get uh what's off limits because eve was like yo like he she was convinced or she you know by listening to the devil like

why would not want to eat this to yeah it's good for food to be like god you know um because he said so and i said no which is a part of the underlying um belief system that leads people to rebel is an attempt to be free in the same way that God is. We want to be independent of everything, all boundaries, all rules, all constraints. But that's not possible simply because we're human. You will always be bound and constrained by something. The question must be, is it a good thing? That's a word.

So to be like either you're a slave to righteousness or you're a slave. or you're a slave to sin. In both contexts, you're a slave. But one leads to life and one leads to death. And so it's all a thing. One of my favorite parables, and it probably shouldn't be my favorite, because it's like, why is it? It's the parable of the soar.

And I want to read it out loud. I don't want to paraphrase this because I think it's helpful. Let me scroll on over. All right. So I'm going to read Jesus' explanation. It's in Matthew 13. this speaks to our conversation. He says, when anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what

was sung along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. Somebody say a while. A while. And when tribulation or persecution arises, on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches

choke the word and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understand it and he indeed bears fruit and yields in one case a hundredfold and another 60 and another 30. I like this parable because to me it gives a lot of context to the

inner like the outward I guess stressors on people who receive the word yeah and how that impacts them differently and how they respond yeah like so they both hear the word with two different responses well it's it's four scenarios yeah four scenarios yeah yeah yeah we everybody doesn't respond in the same way when they hear the word when I read it what were you thinking I think what what I was thinking is there are some people who hear the word of God And I heard somebody say something. It made me think about this quote. I forget who said it.

But it was, they said something along the lines of, if you have been called out of darkness, the more you hear about God makes you love him more. But if you are still in darkness, the more you hear about God makes you run from him more. Yikes. And so I think that's the first thing that I thought about

because I think if you are, new creature, right? The more you are confronted with this great and loving God, it's going to make you love and be drawn to more. But if you haven't really wrestled with your sin or really felt the weight of your sin or if you just grew up in Christianity or grew up in a Christian home and did things out of duty, the more hearing about God is going to feel like a burden to you. Yeah. It's going to feel like a weight. It's going to feel, you know, and so that kind of to bring me to something that I want to say. Like I think that when someone walks away from the faith, I do think that it should be a great level of compassion for someone because either

they walked away for a short time and I believe if they belong to the Lord, the Lord is going to draw them back to himself. Their return. But for the person who's kind of like, you know, live this life pretending or not really sure if they belong to the Lord and they really didn't you have to think about how stressful and how burdensome that was for that person

to try to live a life that's impossible to live apart from the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Right. And so I think I think it should draw us to compassion. We shouldn't be judgmental. But we know how hard it is to serve the Lord with the Holy Spirit.

I want to emphasize something you said because you just said a lot. Which is that there are some people who have grown up in Christian contexts and have consistently received the word. The seed was planted. And they received the word

with gladness. They went to church with you. They went to Bible study with you. They might have had a ministry. They worship. They lift their hands. yet they end up quote unquote falling away which is disorienting because you have memories of them doing the same thing that you did as a Christian but the question has to be asked is did the seeds sink into the soil you know because just because you were in ministry doesn't mean you were actually being fruit just because you were talking about God doesn't mean you were actually being crude so there are some people who we have described as falling away but they were never and they were never a part of the fold anyway. Yeah. But then there is also the, the, the, the wisdom that says they could still be.

Yeah. They're just not committed now. You're going to like, because I feel like it's easy to be like, oh, they fell away, they were never saying. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But we actually don't know that. Because we try to low-key play God when somebody walks away.

Because we like putting people in categories. Yeah. And I think certain camps do it more than other camps. Of course, sure. And Christian, we're not going to go there. But it's like, oh, they walked away. They were never with us. And it's like, no, that's not you really trying to stay committed to scripture.

That's you rooted in tribalism. And so you feel this anger like they portrayed you. And you're not really concerned about their soul in the first place. And so that's a whole other topic. But I do think that there is a self-righteousness there when somebody, walks away from the faith and it's like no like the reality is it's like you don't really know no we don't if they belong to the lord like you don't know what god has done in their heart you know like and we don't know we can we can speculate we can we can have questions you know but i think the

the the best thing to do is to pray you know um and then again my other brain it's like but can you know No, because I mean, John says, you know, those who have been born of God will not continue in sin. Even Paul and Hebrews talks about those who are, what's the word? When someone rejects the faith, it starts with a A. A. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about can? Apostate?

Yes. Okay. He talks about that. Like people who were around the Christian faith, around the Spirit of God, like all this stuff. type of stuff and how it's kind of like all bad for them. So in on one end, I wonder if someone legitimately walking away and not being a believer is actually discernible. I just think that it takes humility and patience and Holy Spirit-driven wisdom to be able to

come to those kinds of conclusions because a lot of times we are making conclusions about people standing with God and we don't even have a relationship with them to discern correctly. Absolutely, which I want to talk about that, but I want to just say even when you just brought the scripture about, you know, those who belong to God, they cannot continue in sin. It's not our job to know how long they're continuing and sin last, right? Because I think we can say, oh, he walked away two years ago. He definitely not a believer. God might draw him back in his 40s when he left God in his 20s. You know what I'm saying?

we don't know. But so I think the thing that God wants us to do the most, I will emphasize this a lot in this podcast, is to pray. It's really to pray, you know what I'm saying? But so what you just said, I think that social media makes things just difficult. Yeah, it's not real life. Yeah, it's not real life. And it's not a place where we can rightfully judge or even have the close proximity.

enough to see why somebody walked away from the faith because we've had friends and we've had people who walked away from the faith and it was very public and the way people dealt with it on social media it's like this I know we are part of a larger community a global community of the body of Christ but a lot of the way in which we deal with people who walk away from the Lord online is really how we're supposed to deal with people walking away from Christ in our local context maybe Well, I'm meaning, I mean. I get what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The confrontation element. The confrontation, even in the local context, I don't think the confrontation, confrontation should be that way. I think that, you know, we should allow the elders to walk through. That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah. But I just think that a lot of times we see tribalism and we see arrogance and we see

people feeling like they have to place someone's Holy Spirit to try to like convict someone of their sin and it's like no really what you're just doing is just revealing your lack of trust in God and his sovereignty by you attacking someone or trying to like Yeah it's a wisdom principle

Yeah it's a wisdom principle Because I remember one time There was somebody that I follow on Twitter Who once you know Identify this Christian and no longer does And I was looking at a tweet they made And underneath the tweet this person just kept posting all these scriptures,

you know what I'm saying? Like repent and believe and da-da-da-da-da-da. And I was like, you do realize that they know that scripture. Right. And that they most likely actually wrestled with that scripture. Yeah. And came to the conclusion that they don't believe that scripture. Right.

And so is posting this scripture actually the wisest method to convince them of it? Yeah. And so I just, I just, I just, feel like there takes some wisdom and some nuance and just understanding humans because one thing that Christians can be really bad at is the art of persuasion. They don't know it. And so you think oh, I'm just yell a passage and as if that's persuasive. Yeah. No. When you read Paul, one of, one thing that Paul was really good at was using rhetorical devices to persuade people towards the truth. And so I feel like what if the method isn't,

to just like abuse people with the text, but to say, man, how are you today? Yeah. Yeah. You need anything? Yeah. Like taking care of people's, not just their soul, but their person. Yeah. I think that would go a long way, actually.

Yeah. Yeah, which kind of like, that's really good. And I think I feel kind of inclined to encourage people who actually have people in their life who have walked away from the faith or in the future might walk away from the faith. faith because I know it can be a hurtful thing especially if you love someone and you see them it's you know I I do think that there is a level of lament that needs to happen right you need to be sad you need to grieving it's not a bad thing but I think a lot of times people have this question how do I deal with it you know and I think we we we fall into this thing of like overthinking and and not treating someone like a human made in an image of God just because they're not a part of the faith that

we are a part of. And it's like, no, I think the best thing that we can do when somebody walks away from the faith who's closer to us, who's close to us, is making sure that we remain an open door, right? And I think when someone walks. How do you do that? Yeah, that's a good question. So I think, I think when somebody walks away from the faith, we're sad, right? And we have all these emotions, but I think the one way we can be an open door is not necessarily withholding truth from them, but praying to God of when we share their truth. Because you have to understand when somebody walks away from the faith, they automatically expect Christians to evangelize again. Evangelize to them, but they don't expect Christians to treat them normal. Right. And so

I do feel like in our wisdom, right, wisdom says, no, let me treat this person like I wasn't their friend or wasn't their buddy just because they were a Christian. But I was their friend because I like that personality. You like the same things. We talk about basketball. And I don't always have to evangelize to you every single time you come in my presence. I don't always have to try to give you the gospel for scriptures down yet. No, but we can sit down and we can talk about politics or sports or we can enjoy a meal.

We're not even me bringing up the truth that I already know you heard a million times in your life. And so I think what happens when we remain an open door like that and when we remain a safe space, we actually create more opportunities in the future for that person to say, man, if I do have some questions about God, I know I have a person who doesn't make me feel like I'm just the worst sinner every time I'm in their presence or the worst, you know, atheist when I'm in their presence who I can come to and talk to. And I think that's what wisdom does. I think to be the devil's advocate, pun intended, there's also the reality, though, that when some people are in certain spaces, you know, where their heart is hard

and they're resistant to the truth, they will feel bad and they will feel shame to the point that they don't even want to be around you. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? That's a thing. That's also a hard thing to wrestle with is when someone who was your friend falls away and distances themselves from you because of what you represent and who you remind them of. Yeah.

And so I think it takes kind of some prayer with God and some kind of getting outside of yourself to not feel like you're the problem or perhaps you are. But I don't know. You get what I'm saying? Right. Yeah. No, that's true. Like you can try your best to be an open door.

But the reality is, is if you represent truth, truth is offensive. They're not going to walk. Yeah. Without you even speaking. Yeah. Just you being you, you being Christian. You're saying no to sin. That's what I tell people all the time.

We don't have to be more offensive because the gospel is offensive enough. Yeah. Right. And so don't add on to the offense. It's like your lifestyle. should convict people of their sin way more than your words do and I think a lot of times we try to convict people of their sin who walk away from the faith because our life ain't going to do it right it's like no like like like if you if you live your life the way God is

calling you to live I think that sometimes what's going to happen naturally that either two things going to happen the person who walked away from the faith they're going to eventually see that you're a safe space, see that you're a wise person who's not going to always throw the gospel down their throat every time you see them. And if they have questions about God, you're going to be the first person they talk to. Or they're going to say, man, this person's life is so different from minds. I don't want to be around them acting holy or not gossip about people or not doing these things that I once did. And so I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, refrain from being their friend. I'm going to distance myself away from them, which can be a

hurtful thing, but I do think that even when those people, you know, stray away from you, which can be a hurtful thing and don't want to be your friend anymore, I think that if God and His sovereignty ever draws them back, that if you were a person that didn't attack them, as soon as they walked away from the faith, you'll be the first person they probably call when they want to, you know, talk about the Lord. And so I don't know. I just think that maybe it's the evangelistic. No. Yeah, thing in me, but I think that's the best way to handle it. I want to talk about the parable of the soar again because I guess the inner motivations that tempt people towards leaving Jesus, like we talked about in the beginning, how like, you know, Jesus said

that there are those who hear the word and immediately receive it with joy, but yet he has no root in himself, but indoors for a while. And when tribulation or persecution arises, immediately he falls away. But then he also says, you know, there are those who, uh, the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke out the word. And so it's like, man, he's saying that there are there are people who will be tempted to fall away or will fall away because of suffering. And there are people who will be tempted to fall away or do fall away because of worldliness. Um, yet, I think whether it's social media or conversations you might have with your friends, those are not the answers that they will give you for why they fell away.

You know what I'm saying? Usually they'll attack some type of doctrine or the existence of God or the Bible is a white supremacist book. They won't actually say, you know what? I just want to have sex with whoever I want. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so I bring that up because I've found that a really helpful way to discuss.

or get to the root of problems, not to get to the root, but like to chat, chat it up with your friends that are like, want to leave the faith, is to like not focus on the verbiage they communicate, but the potential idol that is brewing underneath it. Yeah. Right. So if it's, if you get what I'm saying? That doesn't make sense? Yes, yes. So not dealing with the, deal with the root problems and not the manifestations. Like not, not yet.

So you're an apologist, right? Right. You got people who will, like let's say we even talk about black African spirituality. You got people that think, oh, I just need to argue the sufficiency of scripture. Or I need to argue the atonement. And maybe you do. But perhaps in the conversation, what you could actually hear is hurt and trauma or exhaustion. Yeah.

Right. And so how can we not be distracted by these surface arguments and actually. to get to the root of the problem. Yeah, because I think the Bible, I think when we, if we look at the Bible only as an instruction book to how to live for righteous,

righteousness, but not as a, as a book that teaches us how to feel and mourn with those who mourn and to, and to be compassionate with others, I think that we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna say,

the word says this, you should do that. Yes. And it's like, no, like, no, the, the word is centered around this man who,

became flesh and lived amongst people and cried with people and mourned with people and you know and yeah and met people where they're at and so like it's not just some instruction book but it's a way of how to live life like and this man teaches us how to live life Jesus teaches us how to how to be compassionate and so I think that if we look at it like oh the word says this you should do that and think just us merely shouting now scripture is going to change someone And I just don't like, no, like the Bible just doesn't teach us how to have right doctrine, but it teaches us how to live out that doctrine with others. And so I think, man, when people walk away from the faith, it's hard.

But I think that, man, like trying to understand why or trying to understand what drove them to leave the faith or trying to be the opposite of what they seen that made them leave the faith. How we truly try to do that. Like how we truly tried to be the opposite. of what they received, you know what I'm saying? The opposite of why they feel this hurt in the first place. What the Bible compels us to do is to be compassionate.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And have love, you know what I'm saying? I thought about how we're kind of in this like, you know, deconstruction is the most popular word, right? And how people are really afraid of people deconstructing because they're afraid that they will fall away from the faith. Or you have people who don't, they haven't even said,

that they're not rocking with Jesus no more, but they are questioning a lot of their beliefs that they were raised. And I think if you're a friend of this person or a pastor or a family member, Christians get really afraid. And so they just like, they don't want their people to leave Jesus. But I think when I'm starting to understand is that some people need to go to that place. Some people need to go to that place where they ask really hard questions

about what they believe, about the Bible, about God, about gender, about sex, about marriage, because some people that are deconstructing, they're just trying to believe in something real. You know what I'm saying? Like some people have to tear down stuff to build it back up again on a foundation that's solid and a foundation that they want to stand on. Because you've got a lot of saints that grew up in the church and they just believed what was taught, but they never actually processed through it. You know what I'm saying?

Let me ask you this, though, in deconstructing your faith. I wouldn't say deconstructing my faith. I would say deconstructing. Or in deconstructing, right? Where's the balance of having Christians around you who can be a counter voice, right? Because I've seen two things. I've seen people deconstruct what they believe, but only surround themselves around people who don't believe in Jesus. Right.

And so, and I've seen people deconstruct. But I'm not even, I'm not even speaking to the people that are deconstructing. I'm speaking to the people that are around those that are deconstructing because you cannot control how they choose to do it. Right. That's what I'm saying. But I guess my question is, and I don't know, is it a healthy way? What is it, is it a healthy way to deconstruct and what does it look like? yes there's a healthy way but again i can't impose the healthy way on nobody because there are

some people that might do it in an unhealthy way and still come out good yeah and so sure do it in community sure do it with humility sure do it begging god to keep you in your right mind sure pray pray that god will help you but at the end of the day i don't have control yeah over how somebody chooses to process their faith all i can do is pray that even if they go through hell and hot water all kinds of progressive and liberal and ratchet and terrible ideas that at the end of the day, God will be faithful enough to get them through that where it actually works out for their good and the good of the church. That's really good.

That's really good. But I was only asking because I think there's somebody who might be listening who doesn't really know how to deconstruct their faith in a healthy way. And they've probably had that question and nobody's ever ever told them how to do it. And so I do think that for those who have the question, it's like, I don't know how to deconstruct in a healthy way. And I think all the things that you just say, even though we cannot force people to do that, but for the ones who want to know how to do it, I think that we should, as the church,

we should encourage them to do. I don't think anybody should be afraid. Anybody should be afraid of asking hard questions of the Bible, because it's a lot in there. You got genocide. You got rape. You got Sodom and Gamora. Tamar. You got in numbers where the people.

People come up to the dude's house and rape his wife. And he cuts her into 12 pieces and sends it all over to different tribes. You got Job who, not Job, you have, what's his name? Lot, lot. Who they come knock on the door. He's like, no, you can have my daughters. It's a lot of troubling things in the Bible. God told his wife to look back.

She looked back and was like, you're a pillared of salt. And God is not afraid of your questions. Yeah. But you also have, I'm sorry, not to cut you off, but you also have people who love science. And sometimes science is a big thing that draws people, especially people who lean more towards their intellect. You know what I'm saying?

And they're deep thinkers. They can start thinking about how evidence shows that the world is a certain age and how that contradicts with the Bible and how the flood didn't really exist and how when you get into scientific things like a uniform, in nature and laws of logic and induction and all of these things i think people walk away from the faith for not even issues that they have with the bible but outside things you know what i'm saying and so i think but with that the the we can try to be critical about the process when the process

is determined by the person's motives and so if you are looking for any reason not to trust God, there are a lot of options for you. Yeah. Right. And so you could argue them people down, but if you're an idol worshiper, you're going to be an idol worshiper. Yeah. So I think the people have to cultivate a heart of purity and a commitment to find what the

truth is. If you really want the truth as revealed in Jesus Christ through his gospel by the power of the spirit, you will find it. But if you want to believe lies, you. you going to believe them. But that isn't always true for certain people because I think some certain, certain, that motives aren't at play? Well, I believe that motives are at play, but I do believe that some people have legitimate

questions. Now, I do think that it doesn't, it doesn't mean that their motives aren't at play. I'm just saying that it's, it's two sides to a coin, that a lot of times people have legitimate questions and things that they clearly see that they believe as a contradiction to scripture. So they believe that what I believe about God and the Holy Scriptures has always been a lot because I've studied this and yada, yada, yada. But I think when you dig deep down, I agree with you. And then it's like really your heart really wants to, you know. It's itching ears. It's itching ears. But I think sometimes the questions can be legitimate.

It's when we start to have faith in the things that we learn that that that that that draws away from God more than actually having faith in the in the scriptures and I believe that a lot of people's questions and a lot of people's beef about the scriptures or even when they have things about science it's legitimate and I do think two things can be true at the same time that our questions and our doubts about God can be legitimate but I think that if we take the time, to wrestle with it. I think scripture is true that when it says that, you know, we love the things of this world.

Yeah. It draws us away from God. Yeah. Hopefully you didn't misinterpret what I was saying. Because my issue wasn't even with the questions, but it's the submission to the answers. It's the kind of answers that your heart wants, which is the problem. Yeah. No, I agree with you.

Yeah. I agree with you on that. I just think that, okay, I say. So I think I'm looking at it from, I'm looking at it from like when I evangelized to like agnosticists and atheists because it's such, that's such a hard peel for atheists to swallow because they don't believe that or somebody who walked away from it. It's like, it's like if they never belong to the Lord, right, them, them suppressing the truth is such a foreign, biblical concept to them.

Because it's spiritual. It's spiritual. And so the Corinthians said. that a natural man doesn't understand spiritual things for they are spiritually discerned, right? And so because of that, I think what you're saying is right and I'm not trying to say what you're saying is wrong.

I just think that we even have to be careful and how we present that to someone who has walked away from the faith and now is claiming agnosticism or atheism because they don't even have language for that, especially somebody who believes that there's no God no more, believes that the Bible is false.

So this is a great, thing so if you are talking to somebody who has walked away from the faith and they are atheists agnostic or whatever where that where spiritual things sound subjective and you know magical mystical how do you how do you approach them that because it can't all be logic we we have to address the the human heart yeah I think that you can address the human heart but not address because I think to try to to address the human heart to someone who doesn't have the spirit of God with with biblical principles it's kind of like so how do you do it I think you address the human heart by showing them what drove them from the Lord in the first place I just don't think that we have to use the bible's

language a lot of times to explain that because it's like you are you really trying to tell me that I don't believe that science disproves that Jesus, that Jesus doesn't exist or Jesus is not God in the flesh. I know in my heart, they don't understand that, no, it's their, they're exchanging the truth for a lie. They don't understand that they're suppressing, you know, the truth. They don't understand that concept from a, from, from, with biblical language, but they can't understand that, no, like your unbelief did not start with logic. Your unbelief started when your mom beat you and your father was abusive to you and God didn't come save you. Right. Your unbelief started when you cried out to God for, you know, for somebody to stop molesting you for three years and you feel like he ignored you.

Your unbelief started, you know what I'm saying, when you cried out to God to come rescue you and you felt like he didn't hear you. Like I think talking to someone who walked away from the faith when atheists or an agnostic. about that. But to say, no, you're suppressing the truth. It's like, I don't think that that's going to be well received to somebody. Even though it's true, I don't think it's just going to be well received. And which you shouldn't, if they don't believe in the Bible. It's like, I just don't believe in trying to, like, give people biblical language for something

that they don't believe. They don't believe in the Bible. You know what I'm saying? And so, that's all. I have thoughts. Tell me your thoughts. There's a time and a place. There's a time and a place.

Yeah. Because I think with some people, because you're talking about contextualization. Yes. Which is, you know, identifying where a person is, what they believe, their framework worldview, and speaking into that. But I also think that there is sometimes a place for using biblical language and trusting the Holy Spirit to give understanding to it. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So now I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm going to like not retract myself.

statement, I'll say this. I think when you're trying to draw somebody or lead somebody to the faith, back to the faith, or to the faith, they've never been, I do think that there is a time and a place where you should give them scripture,

but you have to be in close proximity enough, to be close enough to know when you're supposed to apply to scripture. Yes. Because I think for you to sometimes leading with that, can be like, okay, here's another person saying,

giving me truth, that is true. I do think that we suppress the truth in exchange for a lot, right? The Bible is true and it says that, but I don't think that a lot of times we should leave with that. I think that being that open door, being in that person's life,

will one day eventually say, man, okay, we talked about all of this stuff, you know, for the X amount of months. Let me open up the script. scripture and let me you know they might be in a place to receive the scripture yeah now because it's coming from a a person that they trust yeah and so i do think i'm not saying that we should never give people yeah you're not talking in extremes yeah i'm just saying like i think do we have to be wise and when we do it yeah we got it see we was disagreeing but we we we go to the same

page this this actually became a real banter yeah or because this is yeah what we would do at home Absolutely. Okay. To close. I am aware of the potential that there are people listening who have either left the faith but still engaged with faithful content. Or there are those who are tempted to leave the faith. And so I guess I just want to give an encouragement. And if it's on your spirit to do so, you can.

I want to acknowledge how hard it is to obey God. and how hard this world is. Yeah. Like there's a lot of suffering. And you got people that have gone through unimaginable things and how that tempts you to not trust mainly that God is good, that God sees you, that God cares for you, that God wants to and will protect you.

And I guess my encouragement would be is that may the Holy Spirit give you the power to believe what God says about himself. Because the devil loves to use the things that we've gone to as an attempt to make us change our minds about what God has revealed. Meaning, you know, if I was sexually abused and God was sovereign, therefore God is good. Yeah. Right? when God is good or you can know what I'm saying and so I guess my encouragement would be like I just pray that the Holy Spirit will empower you to really believe that God is all that he revealed himself to be that he is good even when things aren't good that he is great even when

things aren't great that he is there even when you feel abandoned that he is present even when you feel rejected like that that that's that's legitimately reality and that out of that faith in the person of God that even as life and its ebbs and its flows and its suffering and all the things that that wouldn't keep you from faith. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. Because when I think about our ancestors, the, the, like, we cannot fathom how traumatic slavery was.

Yeah. We cannot fathom it. Oh, man. But they stay faithful. Yeah. Why? Why? Yeah.

Because they believe God. Yeah. So. Yeah. Go ahead. That's really good. I think about our ancestors who serve the Lord in the midst of their struggle often, which is the reason why I wrote about it before and put it in poems

because they had a different type of faith. You know what I'm saying? And I think one thing, which kind of leads me to my encouragement, one thing that it encourages me in which I would want to encourage others to know that, man, when we see that. see someone struggling with their faith or when we see someone walk away from their faith, I know it can be hurtful. But we have to understand that the same God who has been control of our life is, he's in

control of everything. He's in control of everything. And I know sometimes it can seem outside of our control. We don't have the power to convince someone we can feel helpless. Maybe you have a son or a daughter who walked away or whatever. And it's like, no, like commit your soul. yourself like to prayer and commit yourself to crying out and seeking the Lord because man God is in control of it all like I think that we have to remind ourselves that maybe it sound like a cliche but it's so

true like God is in control and we don't know we don't know only thing that we can do is be faithful give the gospel and pray and those who belong to God God will be faithful to chestize to draw back to himself and bring that person back into his fold and so be hopeful hope the best be an open door and um be prayerful and if it means anything i just got it i got to say this never with peter when he denied jesus three times three times yeah god knew that was going to happen god is not surprised by our unfaithfulness or our unbelief that's good but for those who are his he is at the right hand of the father interceding for what that your faith though it may be tested will not fail yeah And so, I mean, even if you walked away from God for a long time, in the same way that Jesus said to Peter, I say to you, when you turn again, strengthen your brothers.

Meaning, whatever it is that you learn, whatever it is that you went through, that is not going to keep you from ministry. Hello. Somebody. So that's it. That's good word. Bye. 30 Minutes with the Perrys is a production of Ivy Media Podcast. Edited by Angie Elkins, video recording and audio production by.

by Kim Powell, artwork by hop and music by swoop. Join us on Patreon for early access to With the Perry's episodes and other exclusives. You've got two options. You can go to wwwpatryon.com forward slash with the Perrys or just go ahead and scroll. You'll find the link in our show notes. We are the Perrys. Thank y'all for listening. Now go with God.