With The Perrys - When the Leaders We Love Fail Us

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

From public scandals to private betrayals that never make the news, experiencing the failure of a leader is both heartbreaking and disorienting. When someone leads a church community or is esteemed as a hero, the fallout of their failure is felt even more.  Lisa Fields joins Jackie and Preston for an honest conversation about leadership betrayal. They discuss what healthy admiration looks like, how to navigate the grief of failed leadership without becoming cynical, and why restoration doesn't always mean a return to the platform. Scripture References: John 21 1 John 3 Galatians 6:1 This Episode is Sponsored By: After Amen by Tyler Staton - Available at: Amazon - https://nelsonbooks.co/after-amen-amazon Christian Book - https://nelsonbooks.co/after-amen-cb, and B&N - https://nelsonbooks.co/BN-Amen https://gominno.com/ — Sign up online with code PERRY to get your first month FREE! Check out “When Heroes Fall: Healing from the Aftermath of Sin” – https://www.amazon.com/When-Heroes-Fall-Healing-Aftermath/dp/0593603109  Follow Lisa on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/lisavfields/  https://lisavfields.com/  Lisa’s last conversation on With THe Perrys, “How to Wrestle With God” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTKOItm3Wo - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Saints and Nains, how are you? Hope you're blessed. Hope you're all right. Hope you're sane. Hope you walked your dog. Hope you fed your kids. What it is, folk? Hope you wore sunscreen.

What it is, Shother? You know, I just have... That's how people talk in the hood and the line of what I be going on. What are, Shother? I just got to bring... What are Twain? Good. I know your ADHD wants you to say something else.

A.T.L. Boy? I crack your head, Shorter. For real, Shother. I'm playing with me, Shother. Is you having your feet tucked in the couch. I'm saying cozy. I just got to break a real, real, real, real quick. Real quick.

And then we're going to get to our conversation. What happened? This documentary. Oh, my gosh. Called Eternal Instinct. God, what we was there yesterday? You just brought this documentary. We was at Middle Evil Times.

We were middle evil times with our kids. We're in the line getting drinks for our kids. And Jackie, like, let me tell you about this documentary. I can't get over. And I have watched the most vile documentaries, B-TK, Dahmer, all the people, Iceman, all the people, Crash, all the people. This is of a diabolical nature. It took the cake.

It ain't take the cake, but it just, I think it was just such a particular kind of evil, okay? Here's the summary. A lady, a girl gets with a pig seller, falls in love with the pig salesman. Okay. Falls in love with the hog salesman. falls a little fast, moves in with them, tells them that she has inheritance. They start buying trucks, start buying cars. When cars get reposed, nobody asks any questions.

All of a sudden, a couple months in, she says she's pregnant. Everybody's excited about the pregnancy, even though her stomach is still flat. People are confused, don't know what's going on. Somehow, some way, they connect to her old best friend. Old best friend says, well, she can't be pregnant because she doesn't have a uterus. He lost attraction for her, too. You told me. That's such.

That don't matter. She don't have a uterus. So she's on Amazon and buying plastic bellies according to the month that she's supposed to be. Somehow they reach month 10. She is 14, 15 days past her due day, which I just, I don't know why nobody's concerned about that. Whole family feels like something is wrong.

They know that she's a liar. They know she's not telling the truth. They know that something is going on. So she decides to come up with a plan. Have you watched this show? No, but it sounds fascinating. Okay, Lisa Fields, welcome to the show. She comes up with a plan, goes on at Google and starts researching how to do C-sections.

She has a friend named Reagan. Reagan is 36 weeks pregnant. She goes over Reagan's house, kills Reagan, gets a scalpel, removes Reagan's uterus, takes the baby out of Reagan's body, takes the baby out of Reagan's body. body gets in the car on the way, I guess, to the house, she's driving so erratic, the police pull her over. When they pull her over, she has the baby on her lap and the placenta in her pants. And she's saying that she delivered the baby while she was driving. How we know she didn't deliver the baby? She don't got a uterus. One, two, her pajama pants are still on. Ain't no blood, ain't no nastiness, ain't no craziness. They took it to the hospital. The doctor looks at her.

he said, did no baby come out of there? Wow. That's so demonic. That's the whole story. Do you understand what I'm saying? I have not been able to shake it because I'm like, you know how out of your mind you have to be to kill a person and take their baby out of their body? Yeah, she had a legion of demons.

For a man that sells pigs. Hello? Oh. Hi, Lisa Fields. How are you? I'm good. Welcome to our basement. That's a lot to take you.

Again. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. A hero probably failed her at one point of life. And granted, we're talking about when heroes fall. Maybe she was somebody hero. No, I think a hero failed her. They raised a psychopath. She's a psychopath. Somebody's to blame. Yeah. Like I said, she probably had a Legion. For sure. It's the way I want to keep talking about it. How are you doing, Lisa? How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm all right. Your outfit is so calming. Because last time Lisa was on, she was bright.

She was a shining storm. But today, you're demure today. How are you been? Don't you live? Where do you live at? I live right outside of D.C. in Alexandria. I passed through there. I said, this is a, because you told me that at the conference, I said, this is a nice area.

But I also felt like you got some money. You know, I don't, you know, God has. You know, I got some. It just gave. This rent is high. It is high in D.C. Okay. She's trying to.

You know, all glory to God, you know, he's the head of my life. At least he got some coins. He raised the just and the unjust. Let me hold $5. We are here to talk to Lisa about when your leaders fall, sin, are revealed to be something other than you thought, which I think is actually extremely common. I think even when you have conversations about church hurt, that usually is involved in some people. story where it's just like, yeah, my pastor was somebody I didn't think he was, my mentor was somebody I didn't think they were. And so I guess I don't even, I want to say, why did you write the book?

I just, I hate that question. And so I think every podcaster remove that question from your lexicon. So why did you write this book? Because the Lord told me to? I don't know. It's just read it. I think I more so want to know what happened. I just, we are just here on this couch and tell us what happened to you. Yeah. So as I share in our last episode that we talked about, my journey on struggling with faith in undergrad and my father introducing me to the ministry of my hero. I don't name him in the book. I call him Bruce. Bruce. Not Bruce Bruce. And him helping me from afar. And so growing up and ministry, admiring him reading his, reading his books, listen to his podcast, watching his videos, thinking, man, one day I want to meet him. And I

finally got a chance to meet him years later. And I remember our first meeting was so disappointing. Why? Because he came up to me and started just immediately. It was like, Lisa does Christianity to the black community. And he was like, oh, man, that's really good. We really got to say to people in the inner city. And it really went to... That's where the black people are. Yeah. That happened to me at college what time. It's like, oh, okay. Yeah.

And so that was so disappointing because I was like, I didn't think that was going to be the first words to come out of your mouth. And I was like, oh. And at the time, I had been in a lot of white evangelical spaces where they had stereotyped me. And I was already frustrated. So that was kind of like the straw that broke the camels back. And how old are you this time? I'm in my mid-20s. Okay.

Okay. No, hold on. I'm in my 30s. I'm sorry. Really? Yeah. Okay. I'm in my 30s because I'm 39 now.

Look at you, girl. He's 39 too. You know there. Y'all both about to be 40. Yeah, yeah. Keep talking. And so I was like, you know, I don't want to do this dude. Just I was, I think I had an overreaction anyway in that moment.

And so some months later, they was like, hey, we want you to come back to this event. And I was like, I don't really want to come back. I got to drive all the way from Jacksonville to Georgia. I don't really want to come back. And so I come back. And then he sees me. He was like, let's do lunch. And I was like, you're not the person I really want to talk to right now.

For sure, I don't. And so he says, he's like, you know, tell me what, you know, how your experience is being. And I was just really frank. So I was like, this is what's my issue with white evangelicalism and apologetics. and I'm just going in. And he received all of it. And he was like, you know what? What books do I need to read?

And I appreciated his humility. Yeah. Because I'm nobody compared to him in my mind. And I appreciated that he could receive my frankness. Yeah, that's good. And he listened. He received the books I told him to read. And we built a relationship later on.

His ministry would come alongside Jude 3, support me financially by paying half my salary for a few years, pay for some of our HBCU stops, and they didn't want any public credit. And so just built, imagine you admire somebody, then you get connected to them, and then they help you doing the ministry and come alongside you and affirm you. And then say, I'm going to quote you in my next book. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. When a book comes out, I see my name in it.

I'm like, oh, wow. So I'm like, all this admiration, disappointment, then greater admiration because of the humility that was demonstrated, then a scandal breaks out. And I distinctly remember when I asked him, what is something he wanted me to remember in ministry? He said to me, make sure you're a public and private life match. So when the scandal broke out, I was like, bro, what? Huh? Why you said that to me? Yeah.

So that kind of wrestling through that was the genesis of how the book came together. They asked me to read all the segment of a poem, so I'm going to read it like how I used to do poetry yet sitting on the couch. Go ahead. I'm excited for this. I'm kidding. I'm just going to read it.

Oh, man. It says, teach me again the stillness from which movement finds its meaning. The stillness from which movement is beauty. The stillness that rouses the, the slumbering imagination. That's from Be Still, a poem written in After Amen, the new book from pastor and author Tyler Staten. After Amen was written out of a deeply personal season after Tyler was diagnosed with advanced

stage cancer, and that wilderness he leaned into prayer, solitude, scripture, and eventually poetry as a way to process honestly with God. The book includes 50 devotional entries that blend scripture, reflection, and original poetry, all centered around the seven signs in the gospel of John. At its core, after amen looks at what happens after we pray, how God continues to form us, deepen our attention, and teach us to notice his presence. And it's available now wherever books are sold.

As a poet, I love the fact that he's communicating his pains through poetry because we see a lot of the scripture does so. After Amen by Tyler Staten, available wherever books are sold. I think sometimes we have a tendency to compartmentalize character where it's like you can think you can be, super sinful here and that's not somehow staining everything else. And so even

what you talking about, his humility, was it humility? Like, was that just him being really genuine? Or now looking back, are there, do you see potential yellow flags even in how he was

like how he was pardoned with you from the jump? Does it make sense what I'm saying? Yeah. So I talk about in the book how we tend as humans to be black and white thinkers. Psychologists say it's the hero and halo effect. I mean, halo and horn effect. And so in the halo effect, when you meet somebody and you have a positive encounter with them, maybe their ministry has blessed you, you've been encouraged by them, they're nice to you.

You assume that they're good in every area. But if you meet them and they disappoint you, you assume they're bad in every area. So I'm trying to get people in this tension that people can be both good and bad at the same time. And so that's the part of the healing is to see people in the complexity of their humanity, that he can demonstrate humility in one area and be a horrible person in another. Yeah. Because sometimes people have success in a character area, but they have a dark side. Yeah.

And so living in the tension, I talk about still loving your hero. I use the example of, what's the drug? dealer and he was uh why you got to look at me i'm so tired of being stereotyped in this podcast gangster the real gangster new york that was they had the movie about benzel denzil played him oh um uh frank lucas frank lucas so i say gangster boo i don't know what you know i opened up one of my chapters on still loving your falling hero talking about frank louis's daughter frank lucas's daughter because she didn't know as a child who her dad was she didn't discover till later on who he he was. And to her, he was a great father. She was like, my daddy told me he sold candy.

Yeah, he did. He showed that bugger sugar. And she was like, he made me breakfast every morning. And she was like, then to read about him later as an adult and to see how much harm he did to a community. And she was like, no matter how much harm he did, I lament that, but I still love my daddy. That's good. Yeah. And so it's kind of how do we, how do we, how do we, how do we, how do we, do we move to healing to live in this tension where you can love a victim and villain that God is calling in our healing journey, not just to look out for the victims, but to also look out for the villains. Yeah, yeah. So the hero he was talking about, he was one of my heroes as well, was able to chop him up with him. And I testify to what you talked about, how his humility,

because I tell people when I met him, I wanted to ask him all the questions, but I left with two questions because he asked me all the questions, which was really deep. And I remember just having this wrestle, and this is going to go on into my question for you, of just feeling guilt because I put a lot of people who follow me on to his ministry, right? And just having a lot of guilt, like because he failed, and I put a lot of people on, and because of the way he failed or whatever, and feeling guilt, and I felt like the Lord, I prayed about it before I did this IG Live, and I felt like the Lord was like, no, I used him to, to, to, you know, I used him to to impact you, and I'm actually still using him

in his failure to impact you. And I think in that, I started to wrestle with that. It's like, no, like, you're still learning from him. You know, I'm using all of it, you know what I'm saying? And I started to just wrestle with how we can esteem people a little bit too high. And so when they fall, it can actually hurt way more. Like what is a healthy way to view humans who,

Like what's healthy admiration? Yeah, what's healthy admiration and what's like, like should we be as impacted when they fall? Because when we look at the men in the scriptures, I mean, like, even the men that we read about, like, Moses had, Moses killed the guy. You know what I'm saying? Peter did deny Jesus. The disciples abandoned Christ after his crucifixion. I mean, they've experienced them pretty, you know. And so like what is some health, what is healthy admiration?

What is when we, when we admire people a little bit too much? Yeah. Our heroes reveal more about us than our actual heroes. Because usually we're looking. Say it again. Our heroes reveal more about us than they do actual heroes. Because usually in our minds, we have a very transactional relationship with our heroes. That's why when they fall, we'd throw them away.

so in the book I talk about like you have to examine that was deep you just said that like you weren't no like I started I started like I started interrogating my heart like she writes that was actually really do you say it real normal but it was deep okay continue so it's it's in the book I talk about let's interrogate why this person was your hero to begin with what did you want from them and so when I had to look at the honest assessment I wanted Bruce to help me in my career I wanted him to help me know how to build an organization like him, how to communicate like him, how to answer questions like him. And so I talk about like my admiration, I was thinking, how much did I really even pray for him? Wow.

Yeah. Like I had to interrogate my own heart. Like, was I interceding? Not that that would have prevented his scandal, but maybe that would have helped me see him in a more, right posture. And so usually our heroes reveal what we want to become. And that's why it's such a disappointment because it's like you're supposed to represent who I could be.

So it's more about you're disappointed. Their failure is more about you than it is them. You're caring more about how it made you feel than you are actually like loving this person and yada yada yada. Yeah, the disappointment comes. And sometimes we create heroes because of the fractures in our family dynamic. So I see this happening a lot with pastors. People come to the church and they want them to be a second father.

So if the pastor disappoints you, it gets conflated with the past trauma you haven't dealt with. So you represent another man or another woman that's felt me, just like my mother and father. And so all of that comes into. play when they disappoint you. Yeah, I want to flip that, though, and talk about it from another perspective, because that made me just think of something. Because I think a lot of times when we have heroes, because we're not praying for them,

and we're not viewing them like we view other people because we don't look up to other people like we look up to them, sometimes we probably can let them get away with things, get away with living a life, get away with just signs. Like, they probably show you signs. Like, even the person that we're talking about is like, a lot of people's like, hey, what are they saying to be, like, go to church?

You know what I mean? Like, just, I don't see this person, like, loving, actively loving his wife or because he's so big or this person is so big in the public eye. And so, like, is there, like, are there healthy signs for us to check in our heart? Like, of letting people get away with things, things that we kind of gloss over,

that we can actually pray for them more. Yeah, yeah. I think in my experience, because I've thought a lot about that when it comes to some significant leadership betrayals that I've experienced and I thought about

how there were things I saw but I excused and I asked why why did I excuse it and I think some of the excuse was fear I think I was afraid to really go there with what I was seeing

you know what I'm saying because if I go there then this person's a liar. If I go there, this person might be like their heart might be. Like, I rather not go there because that means everything crumbles. And so I think some of the resistance to reconciling what you're discerning and what you're seeing versus what you want them to be is just, it's disorienting. I think it's the best way to, it really is a disorienting feeling.

Question to obey. With the fear, though, was the fear you, having a fear that you wouldn't look up to the person anymore, once you found out what was true or was it just hurt and pain that you didn't want to experience? Like, what was the, what was the fear? What was motivating the fear? I think one is if this person, if what I'm starting to see, because when you start praying for real, for real, the Lord really does unveil stuff. And so I think when you start to really see what needs to be seen, it starts to make you question the whole relationship. So it starts to feel as if, oh, I think this whole relationship has been a sham, which warrants a level of grief because this relationship has been meaningful to me, but probably not meaningful to you.

Yeah. And so it just, I think all of those feelings are, for me. Yeah, that's legitimate. Yeah. But sorry, I don't know what your question to Lisa was. Yeah, I think my question was on the flip side of that, like, are there healthy signs that we should look for? for and also like should we approach how we treat our heroes like because you talked about not praying for them like our prayer can't change things if we're praying for the right things but if we're

just looking at the success and not the signs we won't be able to pray yeah so even the way we yeah you know find stuff for your kids to watch that actually coincides of what you believe and what you love and what you enjoy is kind of difficult you know the the socials and the the channels and networks are strange. They're odd. They're uncomfortable. Dare I say demonic sometimes. But we just want something that's fun for our kids to watch, something that points them back to the Lord. And that's where Mino comes in. Meno makes it simple for families to grow in faith together. It's the number one destination for Christian kids' content with shows that feed both their imagination and their understanding of the Lord. Favorites include laugh and grow Bible, young David, the Dead Sea squirrels, God's greenhouse, veggie tales, and more.

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So I think it goes back to the halo. We have to make sure that we realize that people aren't perfect. And I think for me, I've thought that this person just had it all together. And even though I say people are not perfect, I think internally I just assumed. And so it's coming to the. realization, like, this person is not perfect, constantly telling yourself there are flaws in this person, because that will help you be able to approach them if you know that they're human. Like, we strip people of their humanity by either deifying them or demonizing them.

And so knowing that this person is human, but also looking for basic things, like, do these people have relationships? Most people fall because they don't have good relationships. And so you could say, is everybody around you? a fan. Does everybody around you think what you do is awesome? Like, that should tell you this person may not be in a good space. Is everybody around them somebody they employ? You know, because loyalty sometimes comes because there's a check connected to it. Is everybody around them, yes people. You know, you can kind of observe, and these are things that, you know, you can observe. You know,

you can observe up close, but a lot of people that are listening and watching never get the proximity of their heroes to even make these kinds of assessments. Yeah. And so the reason that they have such high esteem is because they haven't met them. Like people say never meet your heroes. Yeah. Because they tend to disappoint. I think that's why it's important for people that do have proximity to these heroes to do what you just said.

You know what I'm saying? To look at the, like, don't look at how much they're being used in the world. But, like, another thing I'll add, pay attention to their relationship with their spouse. Huge. That's very big. Because it's like if the man's wife is never praising him or not celebrating him and vice versa, like the person that's closest to them is always going to kind of reveal something. And I know some people are more lovy-dovey and more vocal about the love of their spouse.

but I'm like, yo, like that does say a lot how a man loves his family should be an indication of how much he loves the body of Christ. We went to a church one time and I'm not telling this story for y'all to be judgy, okay? I'm just saying I've had enough experiences that I do

that this was a clue. But I told Preston, I said something is happening with the leadership. I said something is off. She be free. He said, why some off? I said the wife ain't been here in a year. I didn't know that.

I was like, really? I peeped it. I said, she ain't been here. She ain't sick because she's on Instagram. I said something, something is off in the leadership. Because if the wife is not coming, it's something going on where she don't want to sit up under your teacher. And what happened was I lying? It all falls down.

Yeah, I was a lot. So I think there is principle to, that's not to say a member. It has to be perfect. But there's something about the home life that reveals something about the character of the people that are participating. Yeah, because if we was bogus, we were very honest people. I'm not going to be all, you know, podcasty. If you're out here living a double life, I'm like, nah, I can't do it.

And I know you ain't going to offer that. Yeah, you would have to find a job. We got to do stuff milk because ministry is out of disqualified. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I mean, speaking to this, how do you, because I think there are many people who would also say, yeah, I know people ain't perfect. I know my heroes are human. And so they also don't hold them accountable. Like how do you, how do you also hold them to the standard that they're held to? Yeah. I mean, only people with, the challenges, only people with proximity can do it. And the

challenges often that people in churches, unfortunately, will look at a leader living a double life and assess within themselves that they're helping they feel more than they're hurting. Explain. Say more. That means that they're like, oh, well, we have thousands of people come and get help in testimonies. We have two or three women that have been harmed and they weigh the good versus the bad. In their mind, that's how they reconcile it. That's how they overlook it or their check is associated. This is why I talk about like are the people that surround you paid by you because that impacts whether they'll critique.

you because if they mess up your money, they mess up theirs. Right? So it's important to like assess, like, do, have I structured my life in a way that people can be honest with me. And do I even want that honesty? And when people fall, we got to say, yo, I don't care how many people they help. God cares about the people that they harmed as well. Right?

Right. So they matter. Hebrews 13 talks about, I think gives us a brilliant way to handle when leaders fall. It says caring for those in prison, right? We don't think about the people that are in prison are guilty people. Well, a lot of them. Well, yeah, a lot of there. Some people that are not guilty. And then caring for those who've been harmed as if it happened in your own body. So that's the tension that the gospel wants us to live in. I see the guilty. That don't mean that if you need to go to prison for harming women that you still don't go.

We could go and we could pray for you while you're in there. Yeah. That's a part. Restoration looks like I don't give up on you while you're suffering the consequences of your actions. Yeah. Sometimes you holding people accountable means I need to call the police. Yeah. That's it.

How did the scandal and all that came? Like, how did you finding out that Bruce was something other than what you thought? How did that land on you emotionally? For me, it was very jolting, particular because I felt like if he couldn't make it, could I? I started to see success in ministry as a trap. Mm-hmm. Like you get to a certain level and then it ensnars you. Mm-hmm.

And I was like, you know what, God, I don't want that. If that's where we got it in, I'm out. Yeah. Because I don't think that his whole ministry was a sham. The thing I fear about ministry is not the struggle, it's the comfort. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So my dad said something years ago while preaching.

he said, you have to fight till you die because the enemy will wait till you're at your last leg to take you out. Because when you're younger, you're going through struggles, you're more dependent. You're like, you know, but what happens when you get comfortable and when you're in the last leg of your ministry, when the battle is not as intense, when you have all the resources you need and you're on that relaxing in? And what the enemy does, he pays attention. He studies us. So he'll study you in your 20s and say, okay, that's a root of bitterness they won't take care of. I note that.

I won't bother it right now, but I'll watch you. Oh, that's a little pet saying they got that they kind of tuck. I watch. And he'll stack the deck. Wow. And then when you're 60, he'll pull your card. And then all the little things, the small foxes that you didn't take care of. will ruin you.

Yeah. That's good. And so I'm not, not that I'm not concerned now. You know, we fight the enemy. But looking at Bruce Life made me more concerned about the end than my now. Yeah. Because as my mom says, it only counts if you finish. Yeah.

And so she will always tell me, you're doing well now, but this isn't a sprint. It's a marathon. Yeah. So you got to finish well. And so for me, it was like this crisis of like, God, I want to finish well. Like, what does this success mean if I cause all this chaos at the end? Yeah. Like the enemy wants to get you at, he wants to get you at your highest point to pull you down.

And so just that's how it deeply impacted me. Yeah. Yeah. And I think about that too. That's very deep. Because I think about that too, like, I think, like, if we start to explore why the enemy wants to get us at the end. You would think, oh, we're about to get out of here anyways. Why does the enemy even care? You know what I'm saying? And I think the enemy cares because I think the goal is to

discredit all we've done. Because it's like when he failed towards the end of his life, people was like, was it true? You know, like, can I be a minister like that? You know what I mean? And they start to doubt. And I think that's the enemy's goal is to make people doubt what God has done throughout the years. And I think that's the reason why it's important for us to finish well, because how we finish well actually validates all of our ministry in a lot of ways. So that's powerful. Can I say some real quick? I think something you also said that that's key is ultimately it also discouraged you. Yeah. I think that's one of the consequences of effectiveness is that how you move, if you

fail discourages other people from believing that winning, finishing, faithfulness is possible. Yeah. You know, because it starts to beg the question like, shoot, they can't do it. I can't do it. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so I've kept that in my mind a lot when it comes to endurance. It's just like, yeah, if you tap out, a lot of people will.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's been in my mind. Like, you got to keep, because you, you got to cloud a witness. this is no. And so I just wanted to draw out that that's a part of the emotional toll that takes on people when their leaders fail is just the discouragement that comes with it. And I think that's where it's hard, but it's like doing the work of again shifting your attention back to Christ who did finish well. You know what I'm saying? Because in Hebrews, that's what it tells us,

to keep our eyes on Christ, the perfector of our faith. He didn't fail. And so if we, continue to remember that in him we can find, like it's possible. I think that's a part of stirring our hope back up. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so many things I got in my head that I want to ask Lisa because I'm asking Lisa question. She always get really great answers.

And so I'm like trying to pick and choose which one I want to do. Because I just, I want to just talk about like you live in a public eye. You've done amazing work with You Three Project. We live in a public eye. And I do think that when more eyes are on you, the pressure can be more. That doesn't mean, that doesn't give us an excuse to sin. But I'm just saying a lot of pressure. I've seen people even make excuses for like Dr. Marlow King, like, yo, he lived under extreme pressure.

Let that man smoke a cigarette right now and then. Or, you know, even like justify some of the, you know, cheating allegations or whatever. I do think, though, that when we live in the public, ah, it's a lot of pressure because I thought about, like, sometimes I'd be want to slap people. I can't slap people. I literally can't slap people because I'm going to justify other people that they're going to start slapping people. I can't.

No, I'm being real. But he's actually really serious. No, seriously. I'd be wanting to slap all to spit out people mouth. Yeah. I mean, when people come out of you left online, it does make you want to. No, he means physically.

No, I know. We're just making sure you know. No, like he, I'm going to tell all your business, but like within, the last 12 months or so, you told somebody I'll slap you. Yeah, yeah. And I was,

I'm a Christian, guess what? I was convicted. No, when he told me, I said, so were you convicted? And he was like, I was like, two days later. I was like, a day later. It took a day, like a day and a half.

But I was like, but it scared me. Because like he came in me wrong and I said, it came the way that it came out of me, I didn't even think about it. And I wasn't even trying to be tough. I was just looked at him.

I was like, I'll slap you. Like it wasn't, you know what I'm saying? And so like But then you thought about the podcast But then I thought about you. Yeah, but even marriage. It's like I can't be telling people to honor your wives

if I want to give up on my marriage or give up on my relationship. I can't do that. And so I do think that like, I guess the question I have is is there a way for the body of Christ to love leaders well who are under pressure that other people are not under?

Because I, I do think that a lot of times people can kind of fold under the pressure, find a vice, find a sin that comforts them because of all the pressure. And so whether that's, I mean, taking healthy breaks, taking healthy sabbaticals, I was just talking to a couple of passes. They were like, I need three months. So how can we help the body, how can we help people who are in leadership positions to finish well? Yeah.

I think it's our understanding. Like hypocrisy, I always say hypocrisy is not the presence of sin. It's the absence of honesty. And so if I'm being honest about my struggles and my in my shortcomings, then people have a deeper respect. People struggle with leaders who present like they have it all together and they're not sharing that tension, like you just shared that tension. If nobody's sharing that tension and I see you in this light of where you have it all together,

One thing I noticed as I go back and look at my hero's messages, he share other people's stories. He didn't always share his. I tell you something. Like, it was very riveting stories that connected, but they weren't his stories. Yeah, we can't help what we don't know. And so I can't intercede that you're having for a problem you don't disclose. And not saying you should disclose all you struggling with to the world. but it was revealing to me to say, oh, you know what?

I didn't know what from his sermons was hard for him outside of his original testimony. And so I think when we give people some, like we show a little bit of what we're navigating and wrestling through, it brings a sobriety about our humanity to them. That's great. That's good. Yeah. They can point them back to Jesus. I remember one thing, I think we've said this before, but Brian Dye, who married us and disciples us, one of the things that he really drilled into our mind is that when people came,

because we were a part of a house church, and our platform isn't what it, it wasn't what it is now, but it was something. And people would come and kind of just, you know, be a little weird and all this stuff and stuff. And he was like, the way you kill that is you show up as you. He was like, so the more proximity they have to Jackie, they will see Jackie. They won't see the Jackie that they think they're going to see. And so I think I've learned that a part of leadership, a part of killing this kind of idolatry or ideal is literally they have to see your humanity. So that means that you have to give them access now. That don't mean you be unwise, but it means if you have to stay after and just chill with the people so they can see you crack jokes, then do that. But I think

when people want to create a distance between themselves and other people. That's why they're surprised, like, you're surprised that they still treat you like an ornament when you keep acting like an ornament. Like, you know, does it make sense? I'll make a sense. It makes a lot of sense. It makes a whole lot of sense, yeah. So, yeah.

I think proximity. And a little side, no, I think sometimes just, this might be a little off topic. But I do think that it can be a little tricky for the person who has a platform because some people just don't have good intentions. So it makes it harder. Like, for example, when I started to take my disciples advice and being more human or whatever, it was people who literally took advantage of that. So it was a guy who was like, wanted me to be transparent every other day.

I'm like, you're not investigative and nobody else's life in the church. Like, why you want me to be transparent? Like, why you want to know about Preston every single day of... And so I just think that like... Just wisdom. Yeah. Yeah, just wisdom. Just use wisdom.

You know what I'm saying? But be human, but use wisdom. How did you, so in dealing with the emotional weight of what you were wrestling with, you got some people, when they go through that, they lose all hope in Christian leadership. How did you regain a sense of hope and not despair, cynicism, bitterness, like, what is that? Yeah, so I was in therapy. So one is therapy. I see Dr. Stacey every two weeks. So therapy is one big thing.

Honesty with community. And honesty with God. I think, you know, there's so much, I talk to Christians all the time that aren't honest with God. Yeah. They don't bear their soul to God. And I'm like, how do you get through? He already knows. It's the easiest person to tell what's happening because he already knows your heart.

And so I think the basics of just being honest with getting professional help if you think it's being the scope of your circle. Having your circle know what's going on, how you're processing, processing it in prayer, processing it through the word. I think people get stuck because they don't create the time to process pain. Right? So it's not that the steps to processing pain are super difficult, but it has to be that you carve out the time. And I think that, you know, if I was to analyze my He's.

hero's life and look back just on things I blink from people, the amount of margin he had in his schedule was non-existent. Yeah. Yeah. He had no margin, always on the road, always preaching. And then I think at a certain point, I remember one of the last times I was at his offices and he got up. And he was like, he had preached all day in this other country.

And somebody, he was like, I just need a moment to eat. I just need a moment. And so he took a moment to eat. And he, some guy walked by him and recognized them. And you know how when people recognize you, but they don't want to say nothing at first. So then he kept walking by. And he was like, this happens to me, happened to me so many times before. So I knew what was coming next.

And they came up to him and said, are you Bruce? And he said something that stuck with me. He said, unfortunately, I am. And I realized looking back that I was trying to be somebody who didn't want to be themselves. Wow. And I can imagine the weight that ministry takes on you over time. And especially if you don't have margin when you have people around you, when you're trying to take a break and say, no, if you don't show up at this, people won't get saved.

And so you're always thinking about the mission and who you can impact. And you forget that if you don't, stuff starts happening that you don't have time to process the pain. And now the healing that you're preaching about, you can't actually demonstrate in your own personal life. Now you're becoming a person that causes harm because you haven't cultivated a time to heal from what hurt you. And that's how victims turn into villains over time. That's so good. Because they don't take time to process their pain. That's so good.

I think what I hear you saying, I think with every, like, especially people who live in the public eye and who a lot of people look to have to remember is that that Jesus wants us more than he needs us. He wants. He wants us. And I think a lot of times we can do such effective ministry. We kind of start having this idea that if I don't do it, people. And it's like, no, God can raise up anybody. Like, you know, we're not that special. And so I think sometimes you can. feel this fear to tell people no, or to feel this fear to say, I need to, I need to get away, or I got to stop preaching. I got to let somebody else be the main pastor, preaching pastor right now. It's a focus on my heart and my family. Yeah, God doesn't need us. The Lord wants us. Just remember that. And I think that's important even when we think about people falling. Because if you think that God needs you to be in a certain position, you'll think your rest of restoration process has to get you back in that same position.

Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, that's my next question. Keep going. Okay. Keep going. So the restoration process, I think we think restoration because ye who are spiritual, restore someone in the spirit of meekness, considering your own self.

But sometimes the most loving thing you could do is not restore a person back to the position they held. Because the weight of that position actually is crippling to them. They might not have the character. They might not have the capacity to be a leader and shepherd that many people. They are gifted communicating, but they might not have the capacity to do that well while they're leading. Lisa, you know somebody's business. And so you can, I talk about in the book, you can be restored to a path and not a position and still be restored.

Because our goal as a restore is not to get you back to the platform. is to get you back to your position and your path in Christ. Are you restored to you? Your primary restoration journey should be to your family, to be repentance to those who harmed, to get back in right relationship with God. That's what restoration is. You may never get back to the platform

because you just are not built for that kind of pressure. Yeah, yeah. And loving people well in the restoration process is analyzing, am I actually going to hurt them and hurt others by putting them back in this authority role? That's great. Yeah. And I think when we, one of the things in culture, when people hear restoration in the church, especially people who have been harmed, they have such an adverse reaction because to them,

restoration means, all right, they sit down for three months and they come back and we act like nothing happened. Nothing happened. That's not what I believe that God is calling for. Yeah. That's beautiful. If a person is, their goal is to get back to a platform. Usually they have demonstrated just in my experience, they are usually not repentant.

The rush is to get back to where they were. That's so good. And so sometimes that looks like practically, what can we do to give people resources? Do we need to help them fill out job applications? Can we tell them that they're not their only skill is preaching? Should we help them get other skills? So I'm not going to leave you out there where you're on you, okay, you lost your money. Are we creating avenues and revenue for them to find money in other ways?

So there's practical things we could do in that process. And it also points us to like, who do you see? Usually when people fall, you see the person that most reflects the pain you experienced. So if a leader falls and you're drawn to making sure the leader is good, but you don't care about the victims, it could mean that you're struggling with your own secret sin and when your own secret sin is exposed, you want to be handled in a certain way. So you don't do certain things to hold them accountable because you don't hold yourself accountable. So that's one aspect. So you lean towards them or you still in a prison of shame and guilt from your past failures. so you're projecting what you want to happen to you onto them.

But then you miss the person that got hurt. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But then on the flip side, you can project on them. Mm-hmm. Because then when the leader falls and hurt somebody, then you see the person that hurt you. Mm-hmm.

And you're projecting your pain. And in each situation, you're centering yourself and not the people who were actually harmed. That's good. And God is like, okay, this happened, deal with what happened here. Don't bring all your stuff into it that impacts what's actually happening in the situation. And most of us, if you scroll on social media, people project all day. You're like, how did you get that?

How did that lead a fall take you to when you was five? It's not critical thinking. And so we're living in a culture where people project and they're not dealing with the pain in front of them. they're dealing with the pain behind them that keeps coming into their present moment that they refuse to deal with. Yeah, I love what you said about restoration. You just said so much. But like, I love what you said about restoration because, like, even when we look at John 21, when Peter is restored at the Sea of Siberia's, like some may say, you know, Jesus restored Peter and immediately called him back into ministry.

Like, Peter, if you love me, feed my lambs. If you love me, tints of my sheep. but before he called him back into ministry, one, he prepared a meal for him, pie charcoal fire, right? And so I think what we see even in John 21 in Peter's restoration is before Jesus called him to do anything, he invited him back into fellowship, he invited him back into intimacy, into dying with him, and to sup with him. And I think a lot of times people are can't be restored because we're not really focused on

their relationship with Jesus. We're focused on how to get them back to a place. And it's like, no, like the place, what makes? made them fall in the first place is they stopped dining with Jesus. Is the intimacy with Jesus stopped? And so I think like, yeah, like God wants us to have him before we have public ministry. So that's, I think that's super powerful. And truly, it's usually the kindness of God to remove the ministry to show you your idolatry to it.

You know what I'm saying? Because I remember it was a couple years. ago there was a leader who fell significantly and maybe two months later was back on the platform talking about the fall and all they kept saying that's just I just missed being up here I told press and I said he didn't repent he didn't repent because there wasn't any grief for what he did to his wife how he affected the the witness of the gospel it was just I just missed preaching and I'm like man this was the opportunity to excavate that idol. That was the, because God is great.

He might restore it to you if you could steward it well, but you don't love him more. And I think, I don't know, I think even in hearing this conversation, it humbles me and grieves me and burdens me to being like, man, like the main thing has to stay that like you have to love him more than anything. If you have to love him more than what you do for him,

you have to love him more than what you know about him you have to love him you have to just you can't just get away with acting like you love him and being content with that because there's always more yeah there's always more to know there's always more to repent of there's always more to confess there's always but it's like it's freedom he's after ultimately i don't know i'm just i'm just like oh i need to go pray that love that love is that love for the lord is ultimately what's going to protect us because if it's not the love of God that it's motivating everything, the enemy going to find a way to utilize that. He's going to find a door.

Because that's the thing, you know, one of the things that I was really passionate about was allowing God to heal me. Because I always say when bitterness takes root in your heart, truth gets distorted in your mind. And I knew that if I didn't heal the same thing, not maybe the same sin, but the victim would turn into a villain. And I would harm people, maybe not the same way, but a different way.

Yeah. And so I was reading through First John. I've been reading through First John. And I was struck by in First John. It says that essentially that when hatred takes root in your heart, you lose direction. Ooh, God. That some of us lack direction because we have hatred. And the only way to get direction is to let love and love.

penetrate your heart. Because with hatred in your heart, even easy tasks become difficult. I can easily get to the front door in this room because the lights are on. But if I turn the lights off, it's going to be difficult to get to even what's easy. That's what I'm on darkness, you in darkness when you got hating your heart. Yeah. I was like, where she had? So when you're in, when you got hating your heart, you're dark and you cannot see.

I'm listening. And you have no direction. And I think many of us in our generation lack direction because we're full of hatred. And we only think the hatred is in the White House. But the hatred is not just out the door, it's in the mirror. And I think... I'm going to throw your own book at you.

And I think... And I think sometimes we are so focused on how other people are being hateful that we miss the ways we are. And that's what... I hope the book says it's like, okay, yes, your hero fell, but guard your own heart. Mm-hmm. Because if not, you'll be next.

Yeah. It reminds me that scripture, somebody falls and da-da-da-da-da-da-da, lest you be tempted. What's the first? All these biblical people. A makes you fall. Yeah, of course, Jerome. I just want to read it because I think that's. The other scripture leaves you catch.

Put it because... No. Sorry. That's okay. You said something in the beginning of what you just said. I wanted to... Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.

Keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted. I just wanted to add that as a necessary scripture reference. Yeah, you said something in the beginning of what you just said, I wanted to clarify because you said how victims can become villains. And I don't know if this is what you was talking about, but I, but when I've seen people fall and I've seen people who they, who they did wrong to become a villain in the church. Like a man falls with the young lady in the church and because they love the man so much, they accuse her of stuff, stuff that she didn't do. Like, is that what you're talking about? Was that what you're referring to?

No, I was more so saying that like if you're not letting God heal you from the hurt you've endured from people that harmed you or disappointed you, that bitterness can turn you into a villain in another aspect of life. Oh, gotcha, got you gotcha, okay. But yeah, yeah, two different things. But I do also think that's problematic too. It's like, y'all, you're esteem with people so high that you can't really hold people accountable when they fall because you blame the victim. and I think that's just heartbreaking to somebody who's been victimized. Yeah, that's why I talk about in the book, like seeing, spending your time actually listening to the person that's been harmed, giving that significant amount of time. Yeah.

And saying, how can I provide help and healing to this person? And spending time doing that because what happens is the church is so focused on the person they adore that they miss the person that was harmed. And it's like, no, that person is also an image barrier. That person needs our care. That person needs justice. What does justice look like? If that justice needs like you need to skip, if that person has been raped or violated, you need to skip the elders and call the police. 9-1-1, because you can't always trust that the leadership will do what they're supposed to do because they care about their pockets and the reputation of the organization.

And so you got to say, what does justice look like? But that doesn't mean that I lose hope for the villain. It's like I can still pray for you while you're in jail. Yeah. You know something, we got to close, but something that I've known you for a while now. And one thing I've often heard you reference is your parents. And I'm wondering even if their witness and their testimony is a part of why you had hope. You know, because I think it's one thing to not have a frame of reference.

to you my therapist, it was like, we all need a redemptive person, someone who communicates a narrative that opposes a false one. And so I guess I think in closing, I want to honor good leaders. And so I guess what is it about the way your parents have led you, have led church, like live their life that you appear, like that you look to when it comes to like, no, like I can finish well. Yeah. So one, I think one of the examples that my parents have always given that was helpful for me is that if they got something wrong, they would always apologize. So early on, if they yelled at us and they were wrong, they would always come back and say, I'm sorry.

Two, I love the way they always demonstrated that what they demanded from the church, they always demonstrated. So if there was a cleanup day at the church, they were the first people out there. If they were remodeling at the church, because it was some smaller church, they were the first people out there. So they demonstrated what they did. what they demanded. So in the same way

my hero told me they actually demonstrated for me. That's good. Right? Right. So they were my first, they are my first, if you say, heroes per se.

I think I looked to my hero because he had success in an area that was different territory than what they were operating in. But they have demonstrated for me what it looks like. to continue. Yeah.

And they have demonstrated what it means to be gracious. I always tell my mama sometimes, I was like, you got more grace than Jesus. I think sometimes you need to check some people a little bit more. For sure. But it's that constant demonstration like, oh, I don't, I'm not as loving as them. I need to step my love game up. And so seeing that demonstrated and that character reflection and the constant pushed to me of like, you got to continue.

Yeah. You got to finish. My mom's favorite statement to say to me and my brothers, it only counts if you finish. So you think you're doing good now. If you're going to start this degree program, you better finish it. If you're going to start this project, you better finish it. And so that instilling is really helpful that I do have someone. People, I do have a couple in front of me, my parents, who have been,

demonstrators of what it looks like to be godly. And so, which has been helpful to offset the negative experiences. Yeah, I bring that up because I think for those listening, the Lord is faithful. And so I think if he has given you good leaders in your past, whether that's your parents or your pastors, he's giving you a witness that holy and faithful leadership is possible. but if you knew to the church and you've experienced some church heard or some failed leadership or whatever,

pray for the Lord to redeem that, to not despise leadership and not to be cynical and hopeless, but to say, Lord, redeem this experience for me, you know, provide for me leaders that are faithful, that are good, and that show me you ultimately. And like I believe God is able, I think that's a really holy prayer to pray. I think that's a better prayer than hardening our heart and then moving away from what we actually need to grow in Christ. Can I ask something? Oh, yeah. I would say that that just reminded me what this helped me to do is appreciate my parents more.

Because oftentimes we have looked at people that we admire that we can only see in the screen and miss the faithful couples in the church. The older elders that have been there and been faithful, we overlooked them because they don't have the platform. And so it's kind of like it was a reality check to me. Pay attention to the people. It's faithful people all around you. Yeah, that's good. You were just looking at them because they have a bunch of followers

or you're looking at this person because they have on this platform. But what about all the faithful people at your church that you bypassed? What about the couples that's been married 60 years that you don't ask them for no advice, but you're asking the social media influencer that been married two months? Yeah. Like what is in you that want? What's their advice, but not theirs? Wow.

Yeah, yeah, that's so good. And I just want to encourage a person that's probably listening. You might have a platform of your local church or just online. I think the enemy a lot of times wants us to have the perception of finishing well and not the reality of it. And so therefore we don't confess things because we don't want to not finish in the eyes of people. But like real restoration happens with confession. Like don't live a life because you're afraid of man or cancel culture or the way

people would treat you. Like, no, get your restoration now so that you can't finish well in the future. And so, yeah, man, I want to just highlight the book When Heroes Fall by Lisa Victoria feels. I didn't know what that was your name.

Come on, Vicki. Come on, Vicki. Yeah, man, thank you for writing this book. We have the leak in the show notes. Y'all follow Lisa Jew 3 Project, all the stuff that Lisa be doing and saying how she'd be dressing it and all.

Like, she's real professional. Like, she demure and mod. Like, Lisa, you dress like you got 9-5. But you, you the boss. Hello, you're leading the meetings. Bye y'all. Peace. With the Perrys is produced by The Perrys,

with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.