With The Perrys - When You Don't Desire God

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

We all go through seasons where we have little desire for God. We don’t really want to pray, and reading our Bible doesn’t sound exciting.Being honest about not wanting God isn’t unbelief, but it may uncover areas of our life where we’re believing a lie or not dealing with sin. There are so many things in life that compete for our affections, but God will meet us in our insufficiency and invites us to go deeper in our faith. Preston mentions John’s Piper’s book, “Desiring God” - https://www.amazon.com/Desiring-God-Meditations-Christian-Hedonist/dp/1433595974 This Episode is Sponsored By: https://gominno.com/ — Sign up online with code PERRY to get your first month FREE! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's good with y'all? I am very barefaced because just didn't feel like doing all the things. Amen. It would be like that some days. I just genuinely didn't. And guess what? You're still beautiful. Appreciate it.

Yeah, I don't have much of an opening except we could just talk. You can introduce stuff. When we don't desire God. This is actually your idea. Yeah, I don't be feeling like praying. I don't be feeling like thinking. I don't be feeling like doing all the stuff all the time. And I think there can be this assumption that Christians who walk in like a leadership space

and have some degree of maturity and biblical literacy that they just be out here, just, well, I can't wait to pray. And it's just like, no, I really don't be one to do all the things often. I think that's every Christian, though. I know. If we're honest, yeah. I think, you know, the Christian walk can be, yeah, it can be rough. It can have, it's like any other relationship.

It has, you know, ebbs and, you know, highs, ups and lows. And so, you know, I'd be weary of, like, leery of those Christians who walk around here acting like, you know, they chipper every minute of the day. I think that's just not a reality. If Paul was burdened. Correct. What makes this thing, it would not. Let me put my phone on. Keep talking.

I got to put this on D&D. But yeah, like I remember reading this John Piper's book When I Don't Desire God years ago. Remember chunks of it. I don't remember all of it. But I love Piper's aim in that book. I'm pretty sure we're going to put it in the show notes of us just censoring our hearts, or attempting to censor our hearts back on the Lord, you know,

when so many other things in the society world, our life is fighting for affection. because I think it's really an affection thing. I think because of sin, because of our fault in nature, I think everything is fighting for our worship. Everything is fighting for our affection, which has to be very frustrating. Not frustrating. I couldn't be the Lord.

What do you mean? Because I think about the relationships that we desire. We talk about desire, right? I think about the things that we desire. and God has to be the most holy being in all of the earth because he knows not only what we created for him he like we did like he deserves he's like the only one that deserves our affection

and he consistently I feel like gets cheated on us yeah of us not one of him you know being that and I think God has he's holy and righteous and just and stuff but I also think he he's aware of our frailty. He knows that we are but dust because it's like, I'm not playing devil's advocate because I'm not trying to play the devil.

And I'm in a really cynical mood, so it is what it is. But I think some of it is like you're invisible. Right? So sometimes it can be a bit frustrating to talk to someone who's invisible

and to be walking by faith all the time. You understand what I'm saying? And so sometimes not one in the prayers because it's just like, I'm literally in a shower talking to myself, by faith, talking to God, but talking to myself. And just waiting and trusting and hoping and anticipating and believing what the scripture says about you, I think that's a part of the wrestle is that we're dealing with a being who is, is that your phone? I think it is. We're dealing with the being who is just really different than us. Yeah. So different.

You know, I think... I'm probably sounding agnostic. I'm not saying it. I'm just talking to the reality. No, you're keeping it real. He's not flesh and blood in front of us. Yeah. Yeah. I think it could be super, super difficult for us to continually

grapple with this idea that all of the things that we desire and want is so ever before us. And then God wants us to pray to him who we cannot see. And I think that's what faith is. But I've thought about that before. And the crazy thing is, it's like,

even though a lot of the things are set before me, when I look back in the past and just reflect on the past, which I think remembering is such a huge part of our faith, like God is still the most consistent thing ever. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think that's the thing. Like, I think, I think when I struggle with not desiring God, it is always circumstantial.

It is always something that's happening now. But when I reflect in the past, it's kind of like, oh, like, yeah, I want this relationship with my dad. God, you've been way more consistent than him. You know, I want this relationship with these people. But, God, you know, and so I think a lot of times when it comes to desire, it is a lot of just reflection of who's, been rocking with you, like, for real, for real. Got it. And he was been consistent.

I think for me, that's what I, that's what I, I've had the rest of the week. Because I think about three, when we first came to Atlanta, and I was really struggling being here, but not wanting the Lord like that. Why? Because I think I was just, I think, I think my circumstances was just so ever before. I missed home. I missed community. I miss my disciple or my, you know, Brian Die.

I missed everything and relationships was hard. And I just felt like a dad. I just felt like all I was was a dad, you know. Interesting. And so, and then I was just trying to find, you know, what the Lord wanted me to do in life. You know, I had spoken word poetry, you know, and I was traveling doing that. But it was just, I just felt lost. And I think I just, it made me like kind of cool on God.

in some ways, which is unfair to him. But yeah, I struggled. And so I guess I, because I also want to put you in a position for you to talk more than me, because I don't really got a lot to say. What did, like, I guess get underneath that process. How does you feeling like a dad, you being in a new place? How does, why does God have to, why do you have to be distanced from him in light of those circumstances? That's a good question.

I think all of my circumstances, I think, I think, I can, I want to speak for everybody else. I can speak for me. And I think I've grown in this area, but I think with things are not going our way, we tend to blame God for why they are the way they are. Got it. And so for me, I was like, Lord, you got me out here.

And I think that just affected the way I showed up with him. And I think I was having a pity party. I think I was, yeah, just a lot, like in my flesh a lot. And I think it just kind of. created this distance. Because I think a lot of times when things aren't going our way in life, the first thing that we sought to question is the Lord good to me. And I think that question just creates a natural distance.

Because now we're looking at the God of the universe with Asada, because things aren't going our way. And so I think for me it was just kind of like, you made me leave my home and made me leave this. And I don't see how this is going to come together. Did you, were you aware of the reasons why you were distant at the time? No. No, the Lord had to reveal it to me.

Okay. I wasn't aware at first because I just didn't know how to feel. You know that about me. Like, I think a lot of times when you're going through something, you actually don't have language for why you. you feel what you feel. And so for me, I just, I didn't know. And then the Lord had to show me, oh, you're angry with me. You're mad at me.

And it's cool. You know, I think God is so dope because he can handle our emotions. And he can handle even when we are upset with him. You're mad at me. It's cool. And I'm saying, did he communicate that? Because you had to pray to get that revelation. Yeah.

So there's some degree in which, even if you're, though you felt away, you still didn't completely not engage in some type of spiritual discipline. Yeah, I definitely still engaged. I still prayed. I still read. I was really, like, deep into apologetics at that time. And so just, like, doing all the things that I did, like, you know, geeking out on, you know, agnostic arguments.

And I was doing a lot of spiritual things, but I was doing it with the, like, I didn't didn't have a lot of joy doing it. And so my joy was absent and I couldn't figure out why. And like when you will leave the house, I would feel sad. I would feel confused. And I think

the Lord had to like really show me like, oh yeah, you feel some type of way about it. But it did happen with prayer. Like I would like, in the morning I would get up and pray and pray and pray. And I felt like the Lord wasn't like talking back with me. And it was one day it was like, I think you're mad at me. You feel the type of.

web by me. And I had to deal with that. And I think a lot of times in my walk, the Lord would show me my heart so that I can deal with it. You know, and so I had to deal with it. Yeah. You know, find the stuff for your kids to watch that actually lines up with what you believe as a Christian and as a person that loves the Lord. It ain't really that easy. You know, they turn on the TV and all types of things pop up, you know. You want something fun, but you also want something that points your kids back to Jesus, and that is where Minow comes in. Minow makes it simple for families to grow in faith together. It's the number one destination for Christian kids' content, which shows that feed both their imagination and their understanding

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I mean, it's kind of like weekly. So it's not like a, I think there are different seasons where the intensity is different. But I mean, even this weekend, I had to teach in D.C. And I just had a fog in just a detachment because I'm just processing going through. a lot of things and all the stuff. And so I just didn't want to have to do all the things to prepare for ministry. I didn't want to pray. I didn't want to read. I didn't want to go through my manuscript. I didn't want to, I didn't want to sin either. I didn't want to do anything. And I think sometimes, sometimes I remember researching the word accedia. And acedia is like a really

ancient word that kind of developed into this idea of sloth. And I think sometimes particularly in seasons that are hard, you just develop a laziness where you just are inactive. You don't feel like putting in any effort, especially if it feels as if I'm going to do all the stuff and then what's going to happen. I'm going to pray for joy and I'm going to still be unhappy. I'm going to pray for clarity and I'm going to still be confused. And so you start to feel really, hopeless, which then makes you feel like, what am I going to do anything for? Because I think sometimes, if I'm being very honest, I think sometimes I've struggled with feeling like if I pray for the power to preach, you respond immediately. But if I pray for something else that feels still as consequential and

as heavy to me, you don't respond at the same pace. And so I think that can feel frustrating, where it's like, now you, you, you come to my aid when I have to do ministry. But when it comes to my mind, when it comes to my relationships, I have to wait on you. And I think, yeah, if I'm just honest, I think that can sometimes affect my delight. Yeah, yeah, that's super real. That's super real because, you know, like, man, I've dealt with the same, you know, temptations. Because I know the Lord knows everything. but sometimes it feels like if you answer this Lord right now it would actually really help yeah it would be

great a whole lot you know um have you wrestled through that um like and i'm pretty sure you have and i'm pretty sure me you've had conversations about you wrestling through various things but in your wrestling has it has the lord spoken to you about why oh yeah i'm very clear like like i i know i don't know a lot of Bible, but I know enough to know when I'm not thinking straight. Yeah. And so I think what I know that is true about God is that his intention is to conform us into the image of his son. And a part of that conformity comes by way of quiet dependence and waiting on the Lord

and trusting in the Lord and believing that he withholds no good thing for those. What's that verse? He withhold no good thing from those who trust in them or something like that. Like there's so many promises in scripture that should influence the reality that the God we serve is good, that he's responsive, that he's there. I mean, when you even consider Exodus and how Israel over here in slavery for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. And then the Lord eventually pops up on the scene, send him Moses because he's seen, he's heard, and now he's come down to rescue them. And so his timing is rarely ever the time that we prefer, but his timing is always what we need.

So I know that just in the moment. I don't care. Like, I know it. I just, I don't care. How do you deal with that dynamic of, like, knowing things, like, theoretically, but also, like, at the same time, having these deep, deep emotions, that it doesn't feel nothing about it feels fair? because I think about just, you know, people in the scripture

who God just did not take thorns away from. Right. Or just seasons where we was just like, this prolonged seasons, you know, where it seems like God is like, how do you deal with the deep emotion of, yeah, like, this don't feel fair. This, like, low-key feels like,

I don't want to, like, I want to speak for you, but I can speak for me. like, Lord, this seems a little cruel. You know, but at the same time. I think there's a difference between me and you, though, because you're justice-oriented. I'm not. And so to me, it's never about fairness.

It's almost always about comfort. So I don't think God is unjust. And so I don't ever really think in those ways. I'm just always like, I'm in pain. I'm irritated. I can't think straight. I'm lonely. I'm this.

And so it's usually I just want deliverance from the pain. It's so it's less about his motive and more about like, I know you can do anything. So why won't you do that? Yeah, but even in his motive when he doesn't take things away from, or take things away or even give you things that you, that you feel like would genuinely help you. Does that ever quite like? Because I think to know that God is a good God,

he's withholding good things from me can seem like for some Christian can seem like, that ain't fair. You got it in your hand and you won't give it to me. Yeah. And so you're saying, you think about like just almost like, I don't know, I don't know if the word is like a pop party,

like I would be comfortable. Yeah, because I'm basically saying I don't think about it in terms of fairness. I just, it's like I'm, the kid who wants to sleep in or wants to go to this amusement park or wants to have friends or wants to do that. And he's the parent that's saying no. And I can't do nothing about it but submit.

That's how it feels. It's just, yeah, I'm a kid and you're the parent and I don't have a choice. And so it is what it is. And so I think some of the rebellion in me and some of the stubbornness in me, It's like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, no, I get it. But I do think, I do think having a knowledge of how any measure of unbelief is sin and that sin always spreads and becomes something other than what you expect it.

And so I think the knowledge of that is usually what pushes me out of it, even if I do it with attitude. For example, it's like, I can't, I can't be processing my doubts and my unbelief and my pity parties for too long and not think that that's not going to create some root of something. And I think that awareness always scares me. Where it's like, I'm going to pray because I know I'm a human being wrapped in some flesh and I don't even want this moment of unbelief to lead to sin that I didn't even anticipate.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Because people just do, you do bad stuff when you entertain untrue thoughts about God for too long. Mm-hmm. That's so good. That's so good. Yeah. I fell into some pretty dark stinks.

Like my second year of being a Christian just because I entertained so many lives. And that was before discipleship. And so I think even for Christians to hear that, it's like, yeah, don't be entertaining the devil. Yeah. like like like resist him because he wants us to operate and lie so much yeah because when you're not desiring god on some level there's the possibility that there's a lie being believed there has to be because if he's the most beautiful being in the universe if he's good if he's great if he's the sustainer of all if i'm breathing actively because like even even when we don't desire

our God usually there's also a lack of thankfulness. And so it's like if there's a lack of thankfulness, surely there has to be some type of blind spot when it comes to my perception of who God is and who I am in relation to him. And so I think when you look at it on a really deep spiritual level, something's a little we're human, but something is off. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.

You know what's, I hope this makes sense. I hope this is trying to talk. You can track me. I know one thing for me, and I think this can also be true for many Christians, is when it comes to desire in God, a lot of it is knowing yourself and truly knowing who you are, like, in him. And you're really, your Christian identity. because I think for me early on when I was in the faith I think I think falling into this church mold falling into like doing the things that I thought I was supposed to do

I think I convinced myself that I wanted him more than I actually wanted him Okay does that make sense? I'm letting you yeah like I think a lot of times because I think somebody might hear us talk right for example And they might have the temptation that, oh, I want God all the time. And it's like, I think for me early on, I think I fell into this mode of doing Christian things. But like when life hit me, I realized I really wouldn't feel like that.

Like my heart really wasn't, I didn't want him. I wanted more so ideas and I wanted the appearance. And I didn't even know it. I didn't even know that I've kind of fallen into this mode of just doing. doing, doing for the Lord being, you know, Christian saying the Christian lingo, you know, and it was just like, the Lord was like, is it really me you're actually after? Because I think a lot of times we could be in the Christian community and we can convince ourselves, like I wrote in my book how I convinced myself that I was a Christian when this dude

named Gary started to disciple me. But the moment I saw him flirt with a girl at a bank and then got convicted, show me that I actually did not love him like that. And I think life, like when it comes to desire in God, I think it can be similar. I think God allows us to go through things and say, you really wasn't me, you're desiring. And I actually want you to desire me. And so you probably got excited because you was doing ministry for me. You probably got excited because you was in community with Christian friends that you liked.

You probably got excited because, you know what I'm saying? You love, you love worship, praise and worship. church. But at the end of the day, sometimes I'm going to allow you to go through something to show you you actually really didn't want me like you thought you did. And I think that's the hard thing about the Christian faith. It's God, God doesn't really care about appearances like that. He actually wants heart. Yeah. You know, and I think the Lord has done that with me, you know, a couple of times. It's like, oh, I'm excited. Lord's like, yeah, Lord's like, you're excited for things. Yeah. You're not really excited for me.

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Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. Yeah, I can speak to kind of the honesty portion of it because I do think that people are afraid to admit that they don't want the Lord, especially as Christians, because you don't want people to think like, yeah, you just don't want people to think crazy about you. Like, oh, are they Christian for real or whatever? And it's just like, I don't know. I think the Psalms exist for a reason because when you read the Psalm, they were kind of like, yeah, I don't know where you at. I don't know what you're doing.

I don't really understand. I don't really like it. Why are you not listening to me? Why are you hiding your face from me? Like the honesty isn't necessarily unbelief, but the honesty can open up revelation to where there might be unbelief. And I think if we want to be pretentious about our affections for God, then we won't actually get the freedom that God might be after.

And so I just have no interest in being pretentious. Like in any relationship, affections wane. Yeah. And when they wane, it's actually an opportunity to go deeper. And so I think if there's people listening to us and it's like, I can't believe that they're saying that they don't want the Lord sometimes. It's like, you don't either. Yeah. That's why you're seeing.

Yeah. Like every time you're saying on some level, you don't want them. It's a denial of him. Yeah. You know? And I think our hearts Process that. Pray about it.

Think about it. Yeah. Because it's hard for the Lord to be in relationship with anybody who don't know themselves. And I think God, I think the reality is is that God knows us more

than we know ourselves. And I think like when we are the closest to him, I think that's when he starts to reveal the truth about ourselves to us. You know what I'm saying? And that's just the reality of it.

This is like, he's the God of the universe. He's honest anyways. And he knows. He knows that we are fickle. He knows that we are not stable, that we are finite and he's infinite, that we are inconsistent, that he is consistent,

that he, you know, is steadfast and we are just rocky. Like he knows that, you know, about us already. And so, like, to have this, yeah, to have this assumption that you're always going to want the Lord, it's just not realistic. It's not. It ain't realistic. And I think God,

I think he embraces that truth. You know what I'm saying? Because I think it is his job with the Holy Spirit, particularly the member of the Godhead, to consistently pour out his spirit to give us him, to give us strength to actually want him in the first place, to draw us back to him. One of the benefits of knowing scripture

and one of the benefits of being united with Christ is that he will have you. You know what I'm saying? like you can only drift for so long before he going to hit you across the head you know what I'm saying like he disciplines those that he loves and so I'm always kind of looking at people that don't go through discipline I'm like I'm like you all yeah yeah you you just you just out and about and you ain't never getting hit upside the head I don't know if you're his I don't know if you're his like he's not fathering you and so I don't know if you're a child of him and so

So that's really just to encourage. Like the Lord going to hit you upside to head if you drift for too long. But I think we have to also put ourselves in his way. By that I mean like scripture, prayer, fasting community, all of that is a grace and it's a mercy. And even if you read and the irritation doesn't lift or even if you pray and the clarity doesn't come, it doesn't mean it won't. But you've got to put yourself in his way. Like you got to get in the way of grace to something like so you can stay rooted on some level. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Absolutely. Because I don't want us to have such a passive approach to these seasons where we think because God is my father, I could just relax and not fight. And it's like, no, you got to even if your fight is weak, you have to fight something. And so the fight might be, like even this weekend, I was like, all right, I don't even know how to pray. I just like, like, I was like, I don't even know how to pray. I don't really got no, like, long, like, I'm not going to be out here. Y'all know about your conscience. That big, yeah, y'all, y'all, y'all, y'all about, like, I'm not going to do all that.

I was just like, Lord, I don't really feel like talking to you. I know I have to preach. I know I have to teach. I need, I just need your help. I was like, I just need your help. And it was funny because in that process of being very honest in a really short way, it also humbled me because then I started to say, I have to communicate to these people.

I have to serve them your truth. And even my state before you means that I need mercy. That's good. Like I need mercy. It's like I could get up here and communicate well, but I need power. so that the communication actually bears fruit. And so it's like the wrestle that I'm having with myself is actually humbling me before I even get on the stage.

That's really good. And I wanted to put it on three, but I didn't feel like it. I was thinking about how like how I was feeling could be attributed to some level of warfare. And I think that's legitimate. But I also think how I was feeling is preparation. And so sometimes before ministry moments

or in life in general, that weight, that burden, that irritation, that frustration, that exhaustion, that acetya, all of that is actually putting you into position to be humbled so that you can be useful. Wow. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's really good. I just said a lot, but... No, yeah, that's really good.

I wanted to ask you, though, like, because you text me or whatever, I was, I think I was out of town, just got back in town, and you was out of town. He was like, pray for me or whatever, and I was, like, watching your Instagram, so I was like, look, she's being used by the Lord pretty, pretty mildly, you know. Merciful God. Yeah. But talk, talk to people about that experience that, like, because you, I feel like this is a muscle that you've worked for years of having to be used when you don't feel like it.

Because it's one thing to like. It's way more common than people realize. Yeah. Yeah, it's one thing to like not feel like doing ministry. It's another thing when you like, I don't even desire the God of the ministry. It's a thing, you know. And so talk to talk to people about how that process and like what does it look like for the Lord to practically meet you in a moment like that? I think what was going on in my mind and my heart this weekend, one of the things.

And one of the things about when you are low and when you are sad or when you are heavy and when you don't feel like praying, there is a degree of self-centeredness that develops. And self-centeredness limits your capacity to love well. And so even me praying and me seeking the Lord, it was about, Lord, help me, but help me so I can help them. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm thinking about all of these people who are coming to hear from you. And so I don't know, I guess a part of the process is considering that to do the work that God has called you to do, you not only need power, but you need compassion. You need compassion. And the compassion drives you to do the prayers.

The compassion drives you to get on your face. The compassion drives you to do the thing that you don't feel like doing. I really, honestly, genuinely, like even right now, I rather. be in my bed scrolling on my phone but it's like I have to do this because I have to do this you know what I'm saying like the compassion is playing a part in the mission and so it's just it's just a thing I don't know the the Lord uses crooked sticks yeah that's good he genuinely does like I think it's the people it'd be the people that don't want to do the stuff that he'd be using yeah people to be like, well, I can't wait to preach.

It's like, why? And you know what comes to that? Right. Like, why do you want to do that? Like, why are you so excited? I don't, I can't relate. Yeah, no, that's good. That's good.

That's real. I think that's helpful too because I think, you know, as people start ministry and are in ministry, they can have this temptation to feel super discouraged when they don't feel like it, almost to blame themselves. So this is like, no, like God actually wants us to lean into him more in those, in those moments. And in those moments, that's when we are really used in a mighty way. Because in order for me to truly be used, I think what I hear you saying and what I've seen you do, and I've done it too, it's like in order for the Lord to really use us, sometimes

you want us to say, okay, Lord, I don't have it. I have to get all the way out the way. Now it can be way more of you. Because when you don't guide it, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, I was done. When you don't have it, you don't have it. Yeah.

And so one metaphor that the Lord opened up for me, maybe a couple years ago, was just when the disciples, when the Lord told the disciples to go feed the 5,000. Obviously, we know it was more than 5,000. I probably said this on the podcast before. Chargers took my, it don't matter. He told him to feed the 5,000. And they're like, Lord, all we have is these fish and these loaves. they didn't have enough to do what he called them to do.

They did not have enough resources. And Jesus says one sentence, he says, bring it to me. Yeah. And so oftentimes in ministry, that is my prayer. It's like, Lord, all I got is a couple fish. All I got is a couple pieces of bread. Can you multiply it? Because I know your greatest desire is to feed these people.

That's super real. And you've called me to do it. And so I think that's what life as a Christian is, is that we never have enough. Yeah. We never have enough. But sometimes he lets us feel it. He lets us actually understand that we're not as sufficient as we would prefer to be. And that's when he uses us greatly because like Paul says in Second Corinthians,

he was like, we despaired of life itself. But that was to teach us not to rely on ourselves, but on the God who raises the dead. Even the apostle Paul got tired. Yeah. But he got tired because the Lord wanted him to trust and depend on him. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's dope. because I think what I've heard you say,

and I think what I've just, I'm hearing is more so than the consistent present of willingness, God really refers to obedience. Yeah. You know, because I think a lot of times we think about, oh, the Lord always wants me to have this joy when it comes to serving, serving, serving. And it's just like, no, what about what you don't have it, which we used to obey? And I think that obedience is really powerful, really powerful. It's diligence.

Yeah. You got to do what you got to do. I think this might be a new concept to some people, even hearing us, like we said before, talk like this. But I think one thing that is helpful, I think is really people really understanding. Like, I talk about the Trinity a lot throughout my Christian walk or whatever, you know. And I think a lot of times when people hear stuff like the Trinity or Christology, it's like they think of those as deep theological things. I think the deep theological whatever, I don't really think it's super deep.

But I do think it's to help us to understand very practical things. And so when I think about the Trinity, I think about how the trium God of Scripture all plays a role in our salvation. And I think we know that the Father is the one who drew us, nobody can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. We know that Jesus died for us.

But I think ultimately what we're saying is that God job is to help us. and that's the Holy Spirit's job. And a lot of times the Lord helps us want him. Yeah. Like that is his job. It ain't even a lot of times. It's all the time.

Yeah. Like we cannot want God apart from his help. And I think we have this pride that we want to come to the Lord and be like, oh, I love you. I want you. I want you. And it can almost kind of feel like an oxymoron to be like, Lord, give me the love to love you. You know, like help me love you. But it's like that's literally the Holy Spirit's role is to draw us, it's to pursue us,

it's to, you know, keep us, you know, in the faith. He's a keeper and a comfort and all of the things. And of course, he's a comfort and all that. But I think the Lord helps us want him. Yeah, and that's Bible. I mean, that's what it means to be. given a new heart to write my law. I'm going to write my laws on your heart so that people obey not just because they wanted to obey the law, but now the law is written on my heart. So I'm

obeying you from a place of sincerity. I'm obeying you from an internal disposition rather than just an external work. Yeah, that's good. And so, yeah, our salvation is literally God changing our so that we can love him. And I think what you're saying, like, in consideration of like, if that's God's work in salvation, it's also God's work in sanctification, is that he is continually changing our hearts in such a way where we are. Our love for him is deepened. Yeah.

And so, yeah. Yeah, because if he is, which he is, he's the most beautiful, loving, good thing in all of the universe, the most loving thing for him to do is consistently give us. us him. He has to consistently give us himself, but because of our sin and all of that, a lot of times we're going to struggle with that. We're going to wrestle with that. And I think the Lord meets us in that wrestle and say, man, I know you don't want me, but because I'm good and I know I'm the best thing for you, I'm going to consistently pursue you. I'm going to consistently help you so that you can receive the best thing.

Yeah. You know, there is, which is, which is myself. And a lot of times that's a wrestle, you know what I'm saying? Like, and we got to be honest. We got to say, Lord, okay. Yeah, I don't, I don't want you right now. Help me. And that God, he does not, he's not in his feelings about that.

You know, and I think that's the beautiful thing about serving the Lord. Like, he can take our honesty. But yeah, I think that's true. I think we also have to acknowledge that there are, things in our lives that can also play a part in the lack of delight, you know? So you have seasons of suffering where the delight is just hard to come by because you're sad. You're in pain.

Life is hard. But you're pursuing, you're seeking as best as you can. But then you have situations where if there's some sin, sin is going to quench delight every time. You know what I'm saying? And so I think distinguishing between am I not delighting in God because I'm in a season of suffering? Or am I not delighting in God because I have sin that I need to repent of? I think it's a helpful conversation.

That's good. That's good because I think so are you saying sin, when you say sin, are you talking about unrepentant sin? Or are you talking about sin that you might not even realize you both? Yeah. Yeah. Like it could be because that has to be a part of the question. It's like, Lord, is there some, because I think there are some heart strength. struggles, there could be some heart sins where you might not be doing nothing crazy externally,

but the Lord is like, ah, there's some covetousness there. Oh, there's some envy there. He has to reveal that. But it's like, if you out here watching porn every day, of course you're not delight in the Lord. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's just an obvious. Very hard to delight with porn. That's what I'm said. That's just kind of, or whatever, like, that's going to quench joy in the Lord. Yeah. And so I say that because I think identifying the source of the lack of delight helps you to know how to actually deal with the issue. So if I'm in a season of suffering, it's like I need strength. I need hope.

I need steadfastness in this trial. If I'm in sin, I need to repent and I need to replace. So my lack of delight is coming from a place of I'm actually getting delight elsewhere. And so that's why I'm not delighting you because I'm getting all my joy over here. But then if I remove the idol, if I deal with the sin pattern, if I deal with the issue, now my heart is open to trust you to feel me in the way I was trusting that. That's good. And so I think it matters discerning the source of the lack of joy so that you can deal with it appropriately.

Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Yeah, because I think sin separates us from the Lord ultimately. And I used to have this I used to have this thought that when I was in sin I was separated from the Lord because he was just

like mad at me which the Bible says that you know he is angry He can be grieved Yeah he can be grieved or whatever But I do think that in a very practical way sin separates us from him

because it's like God is like I'm not like that Like I'm not Like in any relationship You know You probably don't desire God because you're not own what he own. He's like, I'm about doing good to people and you're gossiping right now. You know what I'm saying?

I'm about, you know, honor and respecting. You're being rebellious right now. And so, like, I do think that sin separates us from him when we're not walking like him. And define separation. Not separate, but, like, because nothing can separate us from the, like, the Bible says, nothing complex out of the hands of God. But I do think that it can kind of disrupt this feeling of communion, fellowship, delight, dining with him. Because you can still be the Lord's and be his child while at the same time y'all just not seeing.

Yeah. Like, you're not seeing out of our right now. And it's because some idols are in the way. Yeah, I've had times where the lack of delight is really just a guilty conscience. Break that down. You just your conscience is because when you have a new heart, you have an awakened conscience. And so you have a sense of right and wrong that's just significantly, it's just deeper than what it was when you was in the world. When you was in the world,

you could just sand and sand and sand and you might know it's wrong, but it don't affect you. And Christ, it affects you because now you got the Holy Spirit. and it's like when your conscious is burdened, it's like you could do all the worship in the world, all the prayer in the world, all the reading in the world. But you know, until I confess this and deal with this, I won't actually have peace. Yeah, yeah. It's a whole section in my book where I wrote about that when I said,

you can live comfortable with saying your whole life, but once you are made aware that it's offensive to a holy and a righteous God, it becomes a nagging, the unwanted guests in the home of your heart. and it really did. It was just like, God, you don't like nothing. That's what it felt like. It was like, I just can't get away with nothing.

No, you can't. You know what I'm saying? I speak to somebody crazy. I go home and I feel convicted. I got to, like, call that person and apologize to have peace. It's like, you know, like, righteousness can feel like a huge inconvenience

in the heart of the believer. Mm-hmm. Because it's like it's so opposite from our sin nature that we were born into. And so a lot of times, let me ask you this, do you think that sometimes it's hard to delight in God because we're tired of fighting? Oh yeah. Yeah. We're tired of just fighting. It's like, Lord, I don't want to fight.

I want to be mean today. Can I be mean today? Can I just talk to people crazy for one day? Yeah, because we kind of talked about this last night during our great conversation. Oh, it was a great conversation. I was thinking about that when you said it was good. I was like, no, that was a great conversation. That was sarcasm right there.

I thought we was on the same page. No, that was actually sarcasmus. I thought he was on the same page. How would we be thinking we were on the same page with the Lord? It was literally, but it's fine. It was a great conversation because I cried. I think that's why I said, you know, because I had got emotion. I was like, oh, I was talking about some stuff that the Lord revealed to me.

And when I was in the ocean by the ocean this weekend. One thing we're also learning through marriage counseling is, that we can have separate points of view, but that that's okay. You know, so what was great to you was good to me, but that's, it's all right. Like, I love your love. The Lord, the Lord, like dealing with my heart, you're all about a lot of different things. It's okay. So in referencing the great good conversation, what I was, we were expressing how, like,

there are things that the Lord is telling us to do with other people. or with each other or whatever that we don't feel like we have capacity for. And I was sharing with him, I was like, yeah, I just don't have capacity for that, but I know I could get capacity if I prayed about it, but I don't want to pray about it. And so I do think that prayer, we know that in some ways

God ain't going to show up with some stuff. Or he will show up. He just might not show up in the package that we want. But we also know that there are some things, like the Lord is going to tell you what to do. He's going to energize you to obey. Because you don't want to obey, you want to go around him when it comes to that thing. That's really good.

Because prayer puts on you a responsibility. It does. So it's like sometimes we don't want to pray because we know for a fact we got to get to work after. We don't want to. And so there's plenty of things. I'm like, I don't want to pray about that because I don't want you to tell me do that. We're afraid of what's on the other side of the prayer. It's like, if I pray Lord and you'd be like, okay, die of yourself 17 days in a row.

Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to do that. Yeah, I don't want to talk to you. I'm already dying. Yeah, so I definitely think that there can be. That's why in Hebrews, when it talks about the Lord's discipline, it says do not grow weary with the Lord's discipline, right? And so you, because I've had, I've been in what feels like a pruning season for so long that I've become used to it. But I think at the beginning of it, it was just, I was like, I'm exhausted with the way you want to change me.

Like I'm kind of getting tired. It's just, I'm weary. And I think you can grow weary with how the Lord develops you. But it's just like you can't. And that's why it says the Lord disciplines those that he loves. And no discipline is pleasurable at the time. But it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. You can be disciplined.

And let's be clear, discipline is not condemnation. Discipline is not the Lord executing justice on you. That was executed on the sun. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Discipline is the means of great. It's the testing. It's the wilderness. It's the valley.

It's the pruning. It's the Lord using circumstances to sanctify you. And so in the Lord disciplining those that he loves, what was I saying? What was I saying? What was I saying? It's not the type. Yeah. It yields a peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

You can go under discipline and waste it. Mm-hmm. You can waste it. Like how many people just go through trials and because they didn't lean in and because they didn't find the means to delight and because they didn't pray and because they didn't fast, it was just wasted pain. I have no energy for that. And so it's like when you're more prone to grow weary

when you're actually leaning into the work. Yeah. Doesn't make sense. No, it does make sense. So you won't be righteous just because he disciplined you. You'll be righteous when you allow yourself to be trained and developed by the discipline. Yeah, because I think because discipline can sometimes,

especially when we are in our most fragile state, it can feel like harsh discipline. it's... It might be. Yeah, but it can feel like not necessarily harsh discipline, but condemnation.

Yes. It can feel like a, it can feel like a, you know, God is mad or angry. And this is like, you know, I've been posting

on my IG stories and I'm getting into gardening. And, you know, yesterday I went outside and I saw like this, this beautiful, just, I felt,

I saw the fruit of my labor. You know what I'm saying? I saw my peppers coming up. I saw my tomatoes going up. And a lot of that stuff did not flourish until I stopped pruning that stuff. I stopped pruning those bushes. I started getting stuff out of the way. And like what if, I mean, I know these plants don't have the ability to fight me like we fight God.

But what if it did, though? What if it always got in the way of this pruning process of me trying to shape it so that it can have the best possibility to flourish? And I think God is saying sometimes you. you can grow very weary of this process when it's ultimately for your good. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good for that plant to get snipped. But, like, man, in two weeks, it's going to reap the benefit of all of this fruit. And I think, you know, I think God wants us to remember that, no, he's consistently pruning us

so that we can, you know, produce great fruit for him, but also for us, so that we can enjoy him and love him and receive the best thing in all the way. the universe, which is him forever. And so I think just keeping that in mind that God is not mad at you. No, he's not. He's not being cruel. Even John 15 says that he prunes those who are bearing fruit. Yeah.

So that they would bear more. So I think we should see the pruning as affirmation. Yeah. Where it's like, no, like you're doing, you're actually doing a better job than you know. And I want you to do a better job. Like, I want that to, I want to gas that. I want that to grow. I want that to change.

I want that to, I want you to level up. And to do that, I got to cut, you know. But the cutting is in light of the fruitfulness, not because of the lack of fruitfulness. Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite, one of my favorite movies of all time is love and basketball. Wow. It is.

I just think it's a dope movie. And I remember. I used to think that now I think it's like, you know, the young people, they say that girls are a bird. Yeah. She was a bird. Yeah, she was. You played this man for his heart.

I wish I would. Play a basketball game with you after you didn't, you didn't cheat it on me and took a girl to McDonald's and then you were tired of banks. And it's just like, that's great. Let that man go. Well, I still. Like if any of our daughters behave that way, I'm literally going to have a problem. That's not going to happen. But go ahead.

But anyways, when... Great movie, as you would say. Yeah, it was a great movie. I like the movie growing up. Sheesh. Let me... I like the movie growing up. No, it is a good movie.

Yeah, I haven't seen it in years. I think the principals are problematic. Yeah, but I think you almost made me forget my thought. I'm sorry. Well, basically, when Monica, when she... Sinaiathan. Senna Lathan, when she was on a team or whatever, and she was getting a hard time from our coach in college.

and she was like, you're always riding me and then the coach was like, you think I ride people with no potential. She said, when I ignore you, then you worry. And I think that's just a really great picture of how the Lord treats us. You really, but you, like, don't be upset that the Lord is consistently pruning you.

You should be afraid when the Lord ain't saying nothing. When the Lord is ignoring you. That's what I'm saying. You know, I'm saying like. Some of these people are not getting disciplined. I'm like, I don't know. It's just like, you're probably not getting pruning because you might not be.

You ain't in the mind. He is, you might not even be a seed. I don't really know how we... I don't know how we got here from not desiring God, though. Because I think how we got here from not desiring God is we talked about how weary can be for us to consistently be pruned and that can make us be like, oh, I'm tired. Trying to doing the work of trying to desire God and how that can be exhausting. Yeah, I don't want to desire God because you keep, you, you...

on me too much. Got it, got it, got it. You're on my back. Yeah. You know, and I think that, like, don't get, like, God is producing, he wants to produce fruit. And so stick in there, like, and don't think that God is, you know, out to get you. Yeah.

And out to get something out of you. Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, I just want to affirm that you're not always going to feel lovey-dovey feelings about the Lord. You're going to struggle with delight. You're going to struggle with delight. you're going to struggle with joy. And dare I say that it might be daily. We don't wake up full of joy. Like we wake up with our burdens. We wake up with our schedules. We wake up with our

calendars. We wake up with our consciences. Some of us wake up with certain dreams in our minds. And so that's why we have to drink. That's why we have to pray. That's why we have to get in the word, not to check off a list, but to remind ourselves of what is true about him. And that's the development of delight. And so even if you don't feel like you're delighting in the Lord, there is still an element of faith that is at work when you still choose to do the things that can stir that up. Does it make sense?

That makes a lot of sense. And so I just want to affirm that like that's the daily walk and the daily fight of being a Christian is loving him when you don't feel like loving him and choosing him when you don't feel like choosing him and listening to him when you feel like ignoring him. and that that's a work of the Holy Spirit. But it's also the Holy Spirit activating your efforts.

It's work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is he who works in you to will and to work for his good pleasure. That's just what it means to be a Christian. And like the conversation we had is like we just got to grow up at the end of the day. That's a good affirmation. I want to affirm your hat. It's a really cool hat. Thank you. And I know you don't have makeup on the day, but it's like you got this really cool hat on with these glasses.

is you like a cool, smart mouse. Mouse. Like, but a pretty mouse. I'm a rodent now. You know what? Now that I think about it, now when you play it back to me, I can see how that sounded crazy, but, you know.

Wow, you're really applying our counseling. That is crazy. Like a cute. You did that in real time. Like a real cute. We have been having counseling about communication, and I just love that. Yeah. That was those.

Yeah. And I directed, I interpreted or I interpreted your assessment. Are you being in a mouse? I don't want to be compared to a rodent. Oh. But I'm pretty sure in your mind you weren't saying you look like a rat. See, a rat in the mouse is two different things. Yeah, those are distinctions that you have in your mind that I don't have in mind.

It's a rodent. But that's, you're talking about the cutesy kind of like. thing. That's your intention. So your execution is different than your intention, but my interpretation also isn't fair. Yeah, yeah. Look at us. We're doing so good. Really, it's just the hat. It's just the ears. It's just the ears. It's just the ears. It's just a little. See, clarity. Yeah. Clarity is kindness, because I forgot I had ears on the hat. Yeah. I thought you something on my face. No, no, it's just the ears. It's kind of like a little mouse ears. And so. Okay. But you can wrap it up. Peace.

Bye. With the Perry's is produced by The Perrys, with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hop. Thank you for listening. Now go with God. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets?

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