With The Perrys - When Your Man is Intimidated by Your Gifts

Episode Date: February 12, 2020

Giftedness and the success that can accompany it isn't gendered. Both men and women have the capacity to do great things with the gifts God has given them. But for some women, this comes with a hefty price. Their gifts, talents, and abilities can tend to intimidate the men in their lives. On this episode, Preston and Jackie have a conversation about why that's a thing and what couples can do individually to love and support each other above it all.   Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Saints and Ains. What up Saints and Ains. Stop taking my line. I think it's technically ours now. It's not our, like, no. How about you take the- Our children are ours, our home is ours, our banked gowns ours. St. Names is mine.

Let me say this, babe. How about you say the Saints and I say the Ains? No. I can't have a half. Both are mine. I can't have a half. You need to say what's up, what's up, what's up Joe? That's you.

You from Chicago. Say that. I'm from the church. I can't have half. What, no. If I divorce. you and take half, you're going to be mad. Well, that's wicked.

So there's that. Only joking, thanks. Don't agree. You need to go to marriage counseling before you divorce me. Oh, take half. Over tagline. All right. What's up, y'all?

So, what was this? Two months ago, me and Preston, we have conversations and out of those conversations, we're like, you know what? We literally just recorded a whole podcast just without recording it. We literally said that because it started in the airport. Yeah. It went all the way to the plane.

Because I was intrigued. So I asked the question of why does it seem like there are many men, not every man, but many men that are intimidated when their wives are more gifted or more successful than them? And I just wanted to dialogue about that because it doesn't seem like this is a thing if your wife or your girlfriend is killing it in children's ministry. You don't feel no qualms with that. Yeah. But it seems like if she's a better teacher or a more popular teacher, if she sings worship or leads worship, it starts to get bookings, like where men start to low-key try to pull their wives or their girlfriends back into anonymity for their own ego. You know what I'm saying? So what, like, what is that?

Like what makes men intimidated or insecure if their wives are more successful or more gifted? Well, yeah, one thing I think we should define is more gifted. Because I think it's so subjective. Correct. Right. Because I think it's kind of hard to judge who is more gifted. I think a lot of times in our culture, certain gifts are praise more than others, which might make a person look more gifted than the other.

But I don't think God sees these gifts how much. we see gifts. But I think another thing when it comes to giftings is, I think, that very thing, I think we praise certain gifts by teaching, especially in the West, especially where we live. Teaching is this authoritative, I'm important type of thing. So I think for some men, it might be intimidating for the world to see their wives as this authoritative. figure when it comes to teaching because I think it automatically says something about them or make them think about something, make them think they're something that they're not or less than or whatever. And I think that I think we attach our identities to gifts too much. Because that seems

like that would be kind of one of the root issues is that if you find identity and praise and in visibility and in popularity, then when the person that's closest to you gets what you so really, really, really desire, then it rubs up against your own sense of self and sense of being and sense of identity. Yeah. Where now you're in competition because you don't want to continue to feel so low and so small, when you're not small and you're not low, you're image bearer, but you stop looking at yourself through the lens of being an image bearer, but more or so through the lens of what God has gifted you to do.

But I think why is that seem to be such a male-centric thing? Because I don't see women fill in some type of way if their husband gets booked all the time for a speaking engagement or if their husband leads worship at the church and, you know, people really love his sound or if their husband has a really, really successful career where he makes X amount of money. We don't see women feeling insecure about these things. If they are insecure, it's fear of they going to cheat. me or forget about me or leave me, but it's not like I am less of a woman because my man is

X, Y, Z. Why does that seem to be a male thing to be intimidated in that way? Yeah, I think, to kind of repeat what I just said, but also, yeah, I think men, I think our culture has attached teaching. Teaching is synonymous with, with male culture. But not just teaching, though, that's what I'm saying. Just leadership. Like, any, anything that has the perception of power. has a perception of power if our wives are successfully doing this, I think a lot of men egos are bruised. It's like, man, my wife is more a girlfriend. She seems more powerful. She seems more, yeah, knowledgeable. Like men, like, we just knowledge sometimes does something to our egos, where

where we feel more like men. Interesting. And if our significant others is operating. in the space where she is praised for what she knows, I think it brews a lot of men in egos. Or what she does. And I think, I think, so I think a culture has a lot to, has a lot to do with that. And I also think our egos. I think our, yeah. So you know how you told me how like when we first started, I don't think first, when we first started dating, but at some point, whether in our dating relationship or not in our marriage,

how you would talk about me a lot, because you, like, missed me or whatever. how your friends would say, you know, you're, what is it, whipped and all of that. You cake, man. You, you, you've always talking about Jackie. Why, you're so soft. So that kind of environment, loki, is toxic and discouraging. But does that exist when it comes to this? Like, if you, if you're a man that has a wife that might have a measure of success that you don't have, do, do, like, would male friends, lokey fan the flame with that insecurity in a joking way?

Like, does that happen? Well, I think, does that make sense when I'm like that? To me, does it happen with me? No, just in general. Like, do men do that to each other? I can't really speak for other men because I'm not around a whole lot of men who have wives that are very, very popular like you are. But I know for me, I think because, one, I have a level of popularity as well and I'm known. But you are just known in spaces that I'm not known in.

You're more popular in a lot of spaces that I'm not known in. And your praise is a teacher. So what I've had in the past is a lot of men asking me, how do you feel about that? How do you deal with that? You know, how do you deal with Jackie being in spaces? And, you know, and those questions let me know that maybe you would have some problem if this is your wife. Do they say that that they would have problems or they just, it's kind of implied by the question. Some of them have.

Yeah. And some of them have. So what do they say? I would feel some type of way about it. It was like, man, it would be hard for me to, you know, to have a wife that, you know, that there was in these spaces. Like, you know, some people have, you know, those questions. Do you think a woman, your wife, how do you feel your woman teaching men and all of these things?

But do they say why? Like, this is why I would feel some type of way. Y'all don't never get to the root. Y'all just be saying surface level stuff. A couple of guys that I know personally told me, like, it would be, well, yeah, a couple of guys that I know personally have told me that it would be hard to have a why. that that seemed just as knowledgeable or was deemed by the society as more knowledgeable than him. That's so fascinating and problematic. Yeah, yeah, because I think when you think about male leadership

and how the Bible tells us to lead our wives, when you see a wife who is theological, sound who's a great teacher when you see somebody like yourself for example who seems like they know a lot about God your role starts to seem insignificant it's like how can I lead somebody who who who knows just as much as me about the Bible who can teach other who is given the opportunity to teach hundreds of thousands of people where what is my role play in her life which gets into the conversation of calling versus competence because the assumption is I have to be stronger, better, more powerful than you to actually lead you, which isn't true at all.

Absolutely. And that's the reason, you know, a lot of people didn't like my post a couple years ago that kind of went viral on Facebook when I said that Christ like leadership is not being smarter or wiser or more gifted than your wife. But it is loving your wife like Christ love the church. And when you love, you love, you. your wife, like Christ, love the church, she will naturally submit to you. And I think that some men think I have to be more knowledgeable. I have to look. You know, I have to know more verses in the Bible. I have to be the spiritually strong wisdom. I have to be Solomon for my wife to submit to me.

But it's like, no, Christ actually tells us to lead in love. And humility. And humility, not necessarily what we know. Because a headship is a calling. It is not a qualification. It's not something that God says that we have to be qualified in order to do. What qualifies us is the calling, not what we know. And not how many people think we're dope in teaching or think we're dope in all of these things that society deems is masculine.

You know, I think that that's one of the things that me personally, I've never in our relationship, I never really struggle with. Why? Because I think God showed me early, like, my love for you is what leads us, you know? Like loving you like he loves the church, you know, and I love theology. You love theology. I'm a teacher. You're a teacher. I think to look at all of these outside things to define my leadership and my manhood is silly.

Yeah. And I don't think God looks at us like that. Yeah, I told you how, you know, We met on the stage or in a space where we were able to both display our giftings doing, you know, poetry in L.A., what was that, 11 years ago. And since then, we've always shared the same talents and spiritual gifts for the most part, whether that's just creative writing, like you said, teaching, all of that type of stuff. You're the evangelist. I'm not that. So you got that. I don't want it. But with that, that could create an atmosphere of competition. But I've honestly never felt like you were competing with me when it came to our gifts, you know.

And I was intrigued by what is it in you that allows you to kind of be at ease when it comes to having a wife that shares the same gift things as you? It might be acknowledged more often for the same things that you also have. I'm saying. But with that, I also want to comment on, is it even a factor in how you are parented that plays a part in your security as a man? Yeah, I think it's having a right perspective of God, but I also think, I think you hit it on the hill, me being parentsed by a very strong mother and me being raised by a very strong mother and a strong sister. That's my, that's practically raised me, my uncles, but mostly my mom and my sister. Very strong women who taught me the importance of a strong woman, you know, and I never, I've never been in spaces with strong women and felt intimidated.

Because my mom, I think, always did a good job of showing me her strength, but instilling who I was as a man. You know, she's always said, I can't teach you how to be a man, but you will be a great man one day. Right, right, like, so she put me. in places where people can like teach me how to be a man, but she, she affirmed who I was, not just as a man, but just as a person. Like, you're smart, you're valuable, you have a voice. And that's the reason why, that's not to cut you out, but that's the reason why, you know, I'm very passionate about my voice, you know, and nobody can intimidate who I am. I just, I just know who I am. It's as if a lot of men haven't learned that their manhood is not

connected to their dominance or that their manhood isn't that like you're not more of a man if you have a weaker woman. Yeah. That doesn't make you a better or bigger or more powerful man. If anything, it exposes how weak you are, that you need to be connected to somebody weaker than you to feel better about yourself. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And also, too, I think that we have to define what is strength and what is weakness. No. Because just because somebody see you teaching all the time does not mean that you're strong. Yeah, that's true. And just like somebody sees. Or better. Or better. Yeah.

Right. Or just because somebody see me teaching doesn't mean that I'm strong. Like I think that we relate gifts with strength. And it's like, no, I actually see a lot of your weaknesses that the world doesn't see. And I think that when it comes to spiritual strength, spiritual strength is not what we allow the public to see. spiritual strength is how we how we implicate these spiritual things in our everyday life or whatever so i see your real strength i see i see you not just teaching but i see you allowing the bible to inform how you live that's why i that's the strength that i admire about you yeah you know that so i think the

world admires oh she has such a strong voice so she can exige you the passage but it's like no i i see her i see you allowing the scriptures to to help you be a better mom or help you to be more patient. That's real spiritual strength. Amen. So, yeah, so I think that we have to redefine what strength is and what weakness is. Because I just think the world puts all of these titles of strength and weakness by our giftings, which is just not true.

So I think that we have to, yeah, rethink these things. So with insecurity, like insecurity and fear are like besties, what is the fear? what is the fear that men or some men have when it comes to their wives that might be gifted or successful? Or in girlfriends. Like, what is the fear? I think the fear is not necessarily mainly how the world perceives them, but also how you will start to perceive them once you're praised by the world or one sure respected in spaces that they're not. Interesting.

I think that a man can take them. take it as like, man, like, what if she started to think that my, my voice isn't valuable in our home anymore? She's, she going to love, she going to start, you know, like loving John Piper more than she loved me. Yeah, or like, well, you know, like what, like my role, my significance in her life is threatened now because it's like, oh, she, she, she's learning all of these things and I'm not teaching her.

She's, she's going to spaces that I'm not going. she's hearing from people that I don't know who she's hearing from. She's being influenced by people that I don't know. It's just like, man, I think it could be a fear of a drifting of the wife that submitted to me the day of our wedding day. It actually sounds a lot like how slave masters used to function, where there's this fear of the slave becoming knowledgeable because that then empowers them and gives this an, gives them an awareness of self and an awareness of the world. I think the context obviously is completely different, but I do think it speaks to how when you have an egocentric dominating view of self

and your relationship, how that becomes controlling, control base, where knowledge really is power, but you think that power is going to turn towards you and just not love you. Versus a real godly woman takes that knowledge, and takes that power to benefit her family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's true. And I think for some men, the ego is in the way where they feel like, oh, you're going to take this knowledge and try to run us or try to control our marriage or I don't have this control anymore because the world esteems you. But I think for other men, it might be different.

So to be fair for a lot of men, because I spoke to a lot of men about this topic or topics related to this. but it can also be not necessarily an ego thing but a fear thing of love of being valued of being wanted right or being needed right so it so it is some ego in it but it's also like what if what if what if my wife doesn't think then I'm worthy enough anymore what if she doesn't feel like um my voice is valuable enough anymore what what role do I have have to plan her life. I think it could be both. So I think we can't blame it all on the ego.

No, for sure. I guess I just don't understand why does a, why does giftedness in success have to bring up those kinds of ideas? Yeah, yeah. That's good. That's a good question. I think you have that question because I don't think we operate like that in our marriage. Like, like I don't, in our home, like, for example, we don't allow.

what we know to determine how you submit to me and how I lead. Right. Right. But for the most part, I think the culture tells us that those who are more knowledgeable is qualified to lead. Got it. Right. That's what the culture tells us. Those who are more equipped leads.

But I mean, when it comes to a woman's, again, giftedness and success, why does that lead you to, or not you? but a man to believe that that's somehow going to lead the woman away from, like turn her affections away from him. Right. Like, why is that a thing? That's my point because that's what culture has taught me in. Culture has taught, culture has taught the ones who are most equipped is the one who leads. So if my wife seems most equipped, where's my place now?

Got it. Where's my place? Like, I don't have a place now. Like, you, you learning all of this stuff. you going off and you're going into spaces that I'm not going to. I'm not deemed as worthy. Why would the world even see me as a significant husband for you? Interesting. Right?

Because I think that's what the culture tells us. I think the Bible tells us. And Christian culture. Christian culture. Hyper complementarianism I think has led to those kinds of ideas. I think the Bible teaches us that leadership is a call by God. and that if God has called us to this position of leadership in our home, that he will give us the supernatural strength and love to lead our families. It is not contingent on who is a better teacher, who is a more popular teacher, who is gifted in certain areas of knowledge more.

Like, it's not contingent on that. But I think if that's what all men know about this culture, it's like, all the men are the ones in the fourth, front. The men are the one who seem knowledgeable. And then they have a wife that rises up and who loves scripture, who loves how to teach scripture and all of these things. It's like, man, like, day, like, where do I, you know? It can almost be like a wife who takes pride in her womanhood by being a manager of the home. And then her husband's thought comes, comes alone and start killing everything that she does. Let's God. We will be very happy.

But see, here's the thing. Thank you for the vacuum. Here's the thing, though. Here's the thing, though. I think for certain things, I think for certain things, you guys might be happy if we wash dishes better. Like, nobody cares about the dishes.

It's like, you wash the dishes or if you cook. But I think it can be, I think it can also damage some women, not all women, because it doesn't damage all men, but I think it can damage some women if everybody in the home loves the husband,

cooking more. Potentially. Yeah. And like your cookie doesn't seem like significant anymore or you are, you're viewed as a better nurture of the children more than your husband, more than yourself. It's like, dag, like. It seems like both of, I guess both, even those examples kind of fall into a binary. Like absolutely.

The woman, she will be offended. or triggered by anything that comes against her supposed wifely roles. Yes. And the man will be triggered or offended by that which comes against supposedly manly agendas when neither really are gender specific, I think. Yeah. And so I guess that goes back into a whole, like our misunderstanding of what it means to be male, what it means to be female, and how that then informs how we understand each other's

gift. And let me just clarify, let me just clarify that. I'm not saying that teaching or being astute or. knowledge, it's more natural for men than there's women. No, I know that. Yeah, I'm not saying that. I do think that in some ways women are nurturers in ways that men are not. Yeah.

But we don't want to get into that whole argument. So let me ask you this. I think there are, I've gotten this question, and I think that our conversation begs this question. What do you say to a man who is discouraged that his wife makes more money than him? Yeah, I think that it's just like theology, we can't allow that to define our manhood. I think it's silly to define for that to define our manhood. I think that when we look at the structure of the home, it is so much as we're learning that goes into the upkeep of our family.

And a financial stability is huge, right? But I think that at times when you made way more money to me, I know for a fact that you couldn't do that if I didn't support you. Correct. Right? That's a good point. You couldn't. Like, you couldn't, like, you couldn't even write a book if I didn't, if I wasn't holding down to children. Yeah.

So technically, I made a lot of that money. You know what I'm saying? Like, I pay my part. That's a great point. You know what I'm saying? And I think vice versa. So I think it would spend times in our marriage where I made a lot of money, you know, and you supported me. You was like, I'm going to not do as much to make you, you know.

So I think we have to look, it's going to sound cheesy. We have to look at it as a team. I think we're a really good team. My God's grace, we're becoming better. We have our issues. But I think for me, I think for me in seasons where I've made more, I think I've had to remind myself where provision actually comes from. You know, manna came from heaven. God is the one who feeds the birds and takes care of us, like Matthew 6 says.

And so even if a large amount of the income is coming because of what I do, it's ultimately God using me to provide for my home. And so I think I've had to stop seeing it in the realm of I'm making money. It's like, no, God is just providing for us through me for now. You know what I'm saying? But we are, as you said, equally a team. My money is your money. And your money is my money.

And it goes into the same account. And so I think just not having an arrogant view of provision would be helpful. But with that, I guess one encouragement for you is like I'm grateful that like God is giving me you just because. Aw. I know I'm being sappy. But I do have a good amount of gifts. and God has used me and enlarge my platform, glory be to God, with your help.

And I can see how, you know, with outside influences and how, like, you could just, you could hinder me if you wanted to. You really could, you know what I'm saying? But you never have. Like, you always allow me to fly as led by the Spirit of God. And so I guess, I guess my question is, what about God?

Let me take it to him. What about God? Like, what do you know about him? that has led you to lead in that way. And how do you encourage other men to lead in that way? That's a good question. I think encouraging you in your gifts is a part of my leadership. I don't think it's like something I do to be a good person.

Yeah. Like I think it's a part of me being a good leader. It's, it's, it's, I think it's selfish and I think it's, I think it's offensive to God for him to put somebody in the leadership. position and when they are put in their leadership position to see the people that they're leading gifts and not try to flourish those gifts the best way they can. Yeah. You know, and I think for me, I was like, like, to be honest, when I first got married to you, I was nervous. I was like, God, how do I lead this woman? Like, she's, she's, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a gifted teacher. She's a

gifted teacher. I'm a gifted poet. She's a gifted poet. Like, how do I lead somebody who has all the same giftings as me? And one of the things is because I love you, I always wanted to see you be successful. I always wanted to see you win.

But I also wanted to help flourish those gifts as much as possible. So I think being sensitive to the Holy Spirit and having humility. I think humility is big. I think what humility does is humility allows us to not be so focused on ourselves so that other people can flourish.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And I don't want to just talk like I'm the perfect quintessential husband. Like I never, ever struggled because I have. I talked about in the past how I was one of those men who wasn't necessarily jealous of your gifts. but intimidated that you wouldn't think I was significant when you started to go in certain spaces. Because at one point in our marriage, I think we were praised the same amount, you know,

and then especially for poetry. And then when you started to go and teaching spaces, you started to be praised way more or whatever. I was like, man, I was like, I was one of those people like, man, like, I wondered would Jackie think that my opinion is valuable or my voice is valuable. So that was a quick struggle with me. and I think to encourage you, you encourage me. Your love and you're not changing and you consistently, you know, seeking the Lord for humility,

help to reassure me that this is the same wife that I'm married, you know, and the spaces that she's going into right now is not changing her. But to go back to your question, I think that, yeah, I think it's a part of my call as a leader, as your husband, to, to, to, to, So, yeah, to help flourish your gifts and to encourage you to walking your gifts and not allow my pride to get in the way. So how do you, I guess, is that the encouragement that you would give to a man or? Yeah, I think, I think my encouragement to a man who has a wife or a girlfriend who has, or girlfriend who has giftings and they see that they might be gifted in areas that they might not be gifted in. It's to not allow your wives or your girlfriend's giftings to define her and not allow it to define you.

That's good. God defines who we are. Like, he really defines who we are. I know for, I can use myself an example. I know the things that God has gifted me in. And I cannot allow what God is giving you to make me not see how God has gifted me. because it just does a disservice to my ministry and it does a disservice to what God has given me.

Yeah, as an individual. Yeah, as an individual. I think that when we start to allow our significant others' gifts to define us, they become our standard and not God. Yay! Shibo! We can't, like...

Is she that be like shy. Like, that's... Like, we really have to look at it like that. We're looking at it like, like, like we're not allowing God to be our standard we're allowing the God who gifted this person to be our standard and that's so backwards it's like no the the gifts that I'm comparing myself to came from a source yeah let that source be my standard you know and i yeah i think that i think that's i think that if we think like that not only would it help us to be more humble

humble, but it also will help us to be more confident. Yeah, that's true. I think that if we look at it like that, we'll be more humble leaders and more confident leaders in ourselves. That was great. I got a question for you, wife. Now you got a question. I'm over here being Barbara Walters.

Right. You was all inquisitive, the whole podcast. That's the award I won in kindergarten. As a wife, what advice would you give to the wives out there who are, really gifted to not allow their man or their husband to feel insignificant. Is it any advice which you would give to a woman to not pacify their man? Because I think it's a difference between reassuring your husband or your boyfriend and pacifying them.

What advice would you give? I think it all flow out of priorities. I think my highest priority is to honor God. which then flows into me being able to honor my neighbor and you're my neighbor. But I think out of that, it's honoring the Lord and then serving my family and then serving the church and the world. And so I think when my priorities are in order, then everything that I do outside of my home is to bleed into my home.

It's not supposed to be in competition with it. And so I guess the woman who is gifted or success. The question is, is this serving my husband? Is it serving my children? Is it serving my home? Or is it taking away from it in any way? I think when that becomes the question, then that helps me to utilize my gifts in a way that doesn't impede upon your security. You know? That's good. Because I think you see, yeah, she's on travel. She's going to go speak. She's going to study this word. But everything I'm studying, I'm actually trying my best to apply it so that you're serving. and my children are served. The money that I might make from royalties or whatever the case may be are going into fueling my children's education into setting up, you know,

things to support your ministry. You get what I'm saying. Like it all funnels back into the home. And I think that's ultimately what a man needs to see is that his wife is not or his girlfriend is not going to use her gifts and use her successes to serve herself solely. Yeah.

He wants to see that. like all of that stuff is going to be in submission to God first. Or to belittle him. Yeah. I think that's a part of belittal. Because I think it's a heart posture. Yeah. You know, if I'm belittling you, it's because I'm starting to really think really highly of myself,

which is problematic, which is going against the first commandment anyway. You're dishonoring God, therefore now you're dishonoring your neighbor. But like when your gifts are seen in the right perspective as merely gifts, things that have been given that can then be taken away. then you you come in as long with humility because God hates pride. You give grace to the humble. And you do a very good job with that. You do a very good job of. Oh, you're praising me.

Stop it. I love you very much. Oh, you're so sweet. You're such a sweet leader, leader man with the evangelist. You're sweet leader man with the evangelistic gifts going down and giving the gospel of all the Mormons. Wow. You're belittling me right now. Reading the book of Nephi.

She's belittling me right now. You see that? I take back everything I said. Oh, your little evangelism. No, I'm kidding. Well, that was a great conversation. I hope it encouraged, y'all. It's hard out here being married or being in relationships and trying to do the best we can.

But God's grace is sufficient. We got to be on 50 minutes. No, 38. Probably 36. Bye.