With The Perrys - Why Y'all Not Talking Bout The Cross No More

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

We are losing sight of the simplicity of the gospel message, and we’ve got to get back to the basics. In this episode, Jackie and Preston discuss why it is that we don’t focus enough on Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross. Our sin is a big reason. We forget about God’s wrath and why we need to be saved in the first place. We get caught up in a works-based idea of sanctification. The truth of the gospel becomes uninteresting as we seek greater understanding or deeper knowledge. We can also go through the spiritual disciplines – like time in the Word or prayer – without truly abiding in Christ. All of these scenarios overcomplicate our view of the cross, and it’s time we talk about it. This Episode is Sponsored By: https://fieldofgreens.com — Get 20% off and free shipping with code PERRY at checkout! https://weekendtoremember.com — Get $100 off when you use code PERRY at checkout!   Resources: The Cross of Christ by John Stott Paul Washer’s 7-part sermon series, “Freedom in The Gospel”   Scripture references: Galatians 6:14 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 Proverbs 9:10 John 13:34 John 15:3-5 2 Peter 1:3-9 Jeremiah 25:15 Romans 3:22-26 Romans 8:9-11 2 Corinthians 4:7-10 Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi. What's up with y'all? How y'all feel? How you feel, Jackie? I don't feel like doing this podcast. Oh, my goodness. That's how I feel. I feel like that's, you have three of these, like every season. Yeah, I mean, that's, it is what it is.

I just, I'm not going to be fake, so I don't feel like doing this, but I'm going to do it as unto the Lord, and we have paid a crew to be here, and so we're going to fulfill our. are commitments to shooting all these episodes as a welcome back and a hey so here we are amen amen we we praise god for i'm moody judy i'm sorry i can't we praise god for you pushing through babe what we're talking about today the cross ironically some might call it spiritual warfare i just think it's the the cross and getting back to to the basics. Why do you think it's important

to have this conversation? I think we've had talked about this a couple of times, but the other people know why you think it's important for us to have this conversation? Well, I mean, I think when I,

again, I don't want to keep using this as a reference point, but I've had a lot of time to think about what is being pushed content-wise on socials, what's happening

in the kind of zeit-guide of the Christian universe. And one thing I realized being awful socials, I was processing stuff. And I was like, oh, I think we're, I don't know. It just felt like we're losing sight of the simplicity of the gospel message. And I think I only saw that because I was seeing that in myself.

Like I felt like as the Lord was dealing with me about certain things, it's like he was taking me back to very basic fundamental commands that I was missing and not really giving attention to, such as, you know, love your enemy. It's like we know that verse, but I just, I don't, I don't spend enough time thinking about how, no, that you said that and you want me to do it. Or when he goes to the disciples and like, yes, if anyone is going to come after me, he must take up his cross daily and follow me.

We know that verse, but it's like how much of it is a part of our daily meditation, our daily processing, how much does it really anchor all of our behavior? Yeah. And I was just like, I feel like when I look at the landscape of Christendom, even when you think about podcasts, even when you think about songs, how often do you hear about the cross? You know, we hear about a lot of implications of the cross, which I think is good. but I think we're kind of in an era where it's heavy spiritual warfare, politics, media, getting caught up on what movies are being made and da-da-da, which all of that is cool. But I think if we spend more time on the minors, then the major is actually like missed. Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting thought.

Why do you think that sometimes the majors are missed? Like, what do you think some might be some implications, even in your own? life or when you look at the landscape of social media, why do you think that that people kind of miss going over the majors? Well, truthfully, honestly, if if the major thing is that all things were made through and for Christ, that he is the center of the universe, that he is the main idea, that he is the point, that he is to be loved, that he is to be enjoyed. that the good news is good news because it's about Christ. I think there's,

I think the main things that would cause us to miss that is the same thing that caused us to miss it before we knew them. Flesh. Sin. The world, the devil is, it's, I feel like,

I feel like we're moving in a direction where truth is not interesting anymore. Wow. Christ is not interesting anymore. I need to be entertained. I have to, I have to find some hidden knowledge. I need to be provoked.

It's like we want, we don't, it's like even stuff like gentleness. Yeah. We don't even talk about gentleness, right? That's a fruit of the spirit. It's just like, oh, to talk about love, that's not interesting. Yeah. Like, teach me about, you know what I'm saying? Something deep.

And it's just like, no, that is deep. He's, he's the wisdom of God. Yeah. And so I just, I think it's sin. Yeah. I do. I think it's a level of blindness. Yeah.

And I think about in Galatians, when Paul says, I boast in nothing but the cross of Christ alone. You know, I think. I think a lot of time, well, one, we got to understand just the social climate that Paul was in. He was around a lot of high academic people. He argued with very smart people outside of the synagogue who talked about spiritual ideas. But he, even in Paul was low-key brilliant. But even in his brilliance, he, I think God humbled him in a way to like to remind him that even in all the things that I know, I'm versed and well. and I'm versed in like many languages and stuff like that.

I'm well-educated, man. But at the end of the day, if I do not boast in the cross, I have nothing to boast about. Which I think is very powerful. And I think, you know, and I'm not even going to just blame people because I think to some extent, even in my own Christian walk, I've had the temptation to be like, okay, let me try to get somebody else. Let me try to get the people something else to chew on.

because I've given five gospel presentations in the last five reels that I did or yada yada yada or even when I do apologetic videos. It's like, let me try to get some. But it's like at the end of the day, we so easily forget the gospel. I think that sometimes even as ministers, we can lose sight on how much people need to be reminded of it. Correct. You know? And I think also to go back to your point, I think people like to feel like they're

deep. Like we love, we love to feel like we're giving a revelation about something because it, I think it just feeds us. And I think that's why Paul was just saying at the end of the day, y'all, I don't really boast in nothing but the cross of Calvary alone. Because at the end of that, at the end of the day, that's, that's where life is. And so I think that we just got to, I think we all have to remind ourselves that the cross is not redundant. But it's, it's something that's essential that we need to remind ourselves of it daily. I think to desire depth is good, right? So I think it is good to say, you know, I want meat, you know.

I want to go deeper into the things of God. I want to go deeper into Scripture. I want to go deeper into my understanding. I think that is a good trait for people to have because obviously the alternative would to be to not be zealous for good information, to be slothful in your seeking of God and all the things. I just think when you think that getting beyond Christ is where depth is, there's deceit there. You get what I'm saying?

Break it down. What you mean by that? Because let me read it. I think it's in Corinthians. Yeah, it is here. First Corinthians too. And when I came to you, brothers, I did not come. proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.

For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and fear and much trembling. And my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. And then he goes on to say somewhere that like Christ is a stumbling block to the Greeks. and, you know, foolishness to the Jews or a stumbling block to the Jews

and foolishness to the Greeks simply because he does not, like the cross and the good news and what Christ did doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem powerful. It doesn't seem like highfalutin wisdom, especially when you got cast like Socrates

and, you know, all of that. It's just like, that don't see it. Like he was a carpenter. Like he was just a regular degola, so-called regular deggle old man who died. I don't understand how that's one powerful. I don't understand how trusting in him is actually wisdom. That doesn't make sense to me.

But it's like, no, that's actually what it is. That's reality. So what I'm saying is if he is the wisdom of God, if wisdom is in Christ himself, then to get beyond Christ thinking that you're going to find wisdom outside of Christ, that is deception. That's my whole point. If you go any other way outside of Christ, you're not going to be as smart as you think you are. You're not going to be as wise as you think you are.

You're not going to have the. depth that you think you have. Yeah. And so I think all of our learning has to center and land on him. And so would you say that that trying to be lofty for lofty sake, just just for being deep sake can can potentially lead us away from like Christ-centered messages? Yeah, especially if you think that you can have a knowledge of God without repentance. Because truthfully, that's good.

The basic means of getting wisdom in particular is reverence. Yes, that's good. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So it is easier for me to watch a 45-minute podcast that sounds deep and convince myself that I am somehow closer to God. That's easier than to wake up at 6 a.m. in the morning and confess my sins. That's good. that's really good. One of them seems more interesting. Yeah. It doesn't seem like prayer. It doesn't seem like fasting. It doesn't seem like reading lamentations and Amos and Josea. It doesn't seem like that will actually accomplish the task of depth. Yeah. Of intimacy, of knowledge, of awareness, of discernment, of the, like we think all the other stuff is the thing. And it's just like, no, Christ. Like the spiritual disciplines are the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. That's the thing.

good. That's good. Every wise person I know just has intimacy. Mm-hmm. Intimacy. And in the intimacy, because I think what you're saying is God, like, God doesn't. I'm not making sense. No, you are making sense. Okay. But I think, I think I just like to add to what you're saying is I don't think that God wants us to stray away from dense things. I think some things are going to be dense, but I think in the intimacy, God often reminds us of the basics. And I think in the basics, I think we're reminded of the cross, we're reminded of our own sin, we're reminded of our own sin, we see ourselves and we see that we need to repent daily. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's like if you're chasing after, so like, if you're chasing after levels of information as it relates to the prophetic,

or spiritual warfare, or you getting caught up in, you know what I'm saying? Like, if that's your thing, if you're seeking after that, the question is why? Yeah. Who are you seeking in it? Yeah. It is one thing. Or let's say you go to seminary and you want to, you know, get a PhD in biblical studies or theology or anthropology or whatever. If you're seeking these debts, which I am all for, you have to ask the question of why. Yeah. What am I after? Yeah.

Am I after growing in the love of God and growing in my love for people? Yeah. Or is there some kind of like, I can't explain. Like, it's like, y'all want to go into a different realm of something. You know what I'm saying? And you're not just satisfied with just knowing him in the really simple ways like reading your Bible. Yeah, yeah. Listening to worship.

Yeah, it reminds me of this book that I read years ago when I was in a season of really just studying the, like, church fathers. Like, Tatulian and Clement and, you know, Augustine and all of these, you know. And I think it was Turtulian in this book. I think, don't quote me, but I think it was the book, Father's Knows Best. and it's a book about like the early church fathers. And I think it was Tritulian who talked about, you know, the apostles, John, last days. Because I think a lot of people think that all of the disciples were killed. And, you know, John actually was not killed.

He was the last living in the disciple. And I read in this book where in his old age, what they would do is they would carry John from city to city to church to church. to teach. And people would gather, you know, from mouths to hear the last living apostle teach. And they said in the book that when John would teach, he would just stand up and say, love your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as as yourself. And people will be like, that's all you're going to say, you know. And I think it shocked people because not only were you the last living disciple, but you were the the one who wrote a gospel that was so different than the other gospels.

You know, Mark, Matthew, and Luke are called the synoptic gospels because they're so similar in, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the character of Christ as it relates to his humanity. But John, he was the disciple who talked about the deity of Christ. I mean, his letter started off, in the beginning was the word, and the words with God, and the word was God, right? And so, like, he, like, his, his book was so theological dense. And so I think people were shocked to see this last living, the apostle would say,

just love your neighbor and love God. And in the book, they said a young man came to decide and said, we carry you from city to city church to church, and it's all you say, why. And he responded and says, because if they do that, they've done enough. And I just thought that was so powerful that, that in all he, he learned throughout his life. I mean, he walked with the Messiah. He knew that after everything that I've talked,

that if I just teach people that, they've actually fulfilled the Great Commission, which is to make disciples and to be a disciple. And I think that's the aim. And I think learning about things is cool, but if we don't remind ourselves of that, I think we just miss it all. Yeah.

You know, and I think it's just powerful how dense the gospel, the gospel can be, but at the same time, how simple the gospel can be. I mean, even if you look at the construction of a parable, a parable on the surface is very simple. Yeah. You know, a person went out to a vineyard or the dude, he buried this in the ground or da-da-da-da. Like on the surface, it's simple. It's simple.

But it actually requires revelation to understand. Yeah. And so it's both complicated and both simple all at the same time. but it's only complicated if you try to understand in your own strength. It only becomes clear. It only becomes understandable and even applicable when you are like the disciples and say, hey, when you said that, I actually ain't know what you were talking about. It's simple, but I actually don't get it.

What's you talking about? Oh, I'll reveal it to you because you asked me. And so I think, I just think the faith is deep. And yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I also don't think getting beyond the basics. is all the way rooted in the things we seek as it relates to knowledge and wisdom

and insight and depth. I also think it relates to our understanding of sanctification. You know, I think sometimes we think we can just, I think we revert back to a works righteousness where we think we can change ourselves. Wow. Yeah.

So, because I was thinking about that the other day because in talking with other religions, religions like, you know, Muslims and Hebrew Israelites, they have an obvious workspace salvation. But like Christians, we struggle with that so unknowingly at times that I think everybody kind of feels like I have to do something in order to add on to like my favor of the Lord or et cetera, et cetera. And it's just, why do you think that is? Why do you think that we revert to like a workspace salvation? Because, well, one, we are supposed to work. So work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

But it is God who wills in you to willing to work for it's good pleasure. So there is an element of diligence that sanctification requires. Like you can't just sit back, fold your arms, and expect to be a new person. You know what I'm saying? Like you actually have to apply and apprehend the things of God. You have to read your Bible and believe it. You have to gather with the saints and actually fellowship and do life. You have to, you know, there is work involved.

I think when it becomes, I think when you think that you will change by doing those works independent of abiding is when it becomes a problem. You know what I'm saying? And I think it all boils down to, I think our disposition naturally is independence. That's not how we were created to function, but that's how we want to function. is we want to be independent. We want to do stuff on our own. That's how we were raised, many of us. That's how we were grown.

Like, that was Adam's sin. It's just like, I can get wisdom and all this type of stuff. I can just, I don't got to trust you. I ain't got to lean on you. I ain't got to do all that. And so I just think it's that impulse towards, especially in America.

We are a bootstrap. We've been drained and think, oh, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Just do the thing. And it's just like, nah, that ain't how it work here. It is. And I think for me, you know, when I see other people who feel like we have to keep the law in order to be saved, I can understand how that concept and that mind frame is easier. Yes. I can understand how like... It's practical. It's very practical. It doesn't

seem practical to say, no, that like I actually serve a God who finished the work and all I have to do is place my faith and him, you know? And so I, I think that even returning back to the basics can be just reminding yourself of scriptures that were saved by grace through faith that it is not about works, at least any man can boast. That, no, it is not about law keeping in order to be made righteous. It is about, like, trusting in the one who kept the law perfectly on our behalf. But I'm also distinguishing between works righteousness as it relates to salvation. I'm more so saying works righteousness as it relates to sanctification.

Sanctification, yeah. trusting that God is ultimately the one who's going to change you. Yeah. And so like there's a simple verse like in Hebrews where it says, exhort one another every day while today is still today, lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. That can on the surface seem like, so you're telling me for me to grow in gaudliness and not be deceived by sin,

I got to be around other Christians. Yeah. That don't seem like that's the past. to sanctification sometimes. And that's why we isolate ourselves and think, no, I'm just sit in my prayer closet all day long. And that's going to make me like God. That was me. And it's like you will always put a cap on your sanctification leaning on your own understanding in that way.

And so that's more so what I'm saying is like we come up with these ideas of how to look like Christ that actually kind of help but not really like you're not leaning on him in the way that. that he's actually prescribed for you to change. Yeah, that's good. Doesn't make sense what I'm saying? That makes a lot of sense. Because when I, that was me when I first became a Christian. And I think that's a lot of people.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, like for me, I just didn't understand the concept of community. And I thought it was stupid. And I thought my pride told me that, no, y'all just want to control me. And some of them do. Yeah, some of them do. But it's just like, no, like, like, one, it was my community that consistently reminded me of the basics that I often forget.

about one. And then two, it was my community that that showed me my era. And so I think that when God saves us, we got to understand that God doesn't save us on the island. He saves us in the confounds of a community. And it's literally for our good. It's for our sanctification. I don't think that, I think it's, I think I would, I would dare say, I think it's impossible for us to be fully sanctified. Correct. Apart from a community. That's Ephesians. Yeah, yeah. And so I think in the new, new age of content creation, you can literally build your own world in this, in this new generation. In isolation. You can be your own pastor.

You can get your own following. You can get, you know, and you can just be out there acting like you're a spiritual giant. And that's why I be telling people. And I'm not even saying this to make us look good. But I don't. But I'm not. Pride come before the fall. Seriously.

But what I'm saying is, I think one of the reasons. reasons why we've had a lot of our leaders on has been intentional because I think that when you, because it's impossible for you to know the people that you're listening to online. But I think it's important for you to at least from a far see that they're connected to people. You know what I'm saying? Connected to older, wiser men and women or whatever because it's, I think it's a dangerous thing to consistently ingest information of a person that, you know, I'm saying. You know, I'm saying, you don't know who their accountability is. You don't know who've poured into them.

You don't know who, you know, and I think that's just wisdom. And I just think that it can be a safety measure for our own sanctification as it pertains to ingesting information online. I want to lean into something real quick because I kind of think this is important to say that as a Christian,

one of the aims that God has for us, is to, a really big aim, is to conform us into the image of his son. That is sanctification, the process by which we grow, grow, grow, grow, more into the likeness of Jesus Christ. And to get beyond the basics in this discussion as it relates to sanctification is to somehow think that you can be made into the image of Christ without dependence on Christ. That would be getting beyond what scripture is saying. And one of the ways we do that, obviously, is by ignoring all of the means that God has given us for sanctification.

So he's given us scripture. He's given us prayer. He's given us even communion as a way to remember what Christ has done. He's given us community. He's given us leadership. He's given us teachers and pastors to equip us for the work of ministry, all this stuff. Like these means, anytime you think you can go outside. the means to actually grow into the image of Christ, you've gotten beyond the basics.

One thing I want to dig into real quick is John 15. I think it's important. Jesus says in John 15 verse 3, already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me and I in you as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless It abides in the vine. Neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine. You are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I and him, he it is that bears much fruit. For apart from me, you can do nothing. You can do nothing. Okay. I want to speak to that concept of abiding real quick, because it's basic, but it's pivotal. Yeah. Like how has abiding in Christ sanctified you more? Man. Or what does abiding even look like for you?

Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, when I think about abiding, and especially when I hit that scripture, I often just try to think about this analogy that God gave us in a very practical way. And I think what it means is when we think about, a branch abiding in the

in the tree or whatever it just it stays it is consistent it remains like and so I think that like it's saying like you know because I love the outdoors and I love being outside

and I was telling your mother the other day I was like man I was looking at this tree just two weeks ago and it was bare and it had nothing knowing it and I looked up and it's full it's full and every day I look at this beautiful tree in our backyard, and I'm just seeing so much life in this tree. I'm seeing so much fruit in this tree. I'm seeing, you know, bugs and lizards on this big, beautiful tree. And it's only because

the leaves are, like, remaining with the branch. But the moment I disconnect that from that branch, it will have no more production. It will have no more action. It will have no more life. And so I think for me in my sanctification process, it is like, God just reminding me like, yes, things I'm going to be hard. Yes, you're going to be frustrated. Yes, you're going to go through trials. Yes, you're going to go through tests. But can you just remain, can you stay here? Can you stay here? It's almost kind of like, and I think God gives us children a lot because he reminds us of his relationship with us. It's like when I owe this, she gets often from. frustrating about how things are not going her way. And one of the ways I try to convince her to

trust me is just, can you just relax and just stay here? Can you just stick it out? Can you just remain and watch, just trust that. And I think that's what God is saying. Like when he says abide, he's just saying, stay with me. Give me time. Give me time. I know you, I know you probably heard the gospel all this week in your board. But just give it time. to sizzle in your spirit and watch it produce fruit. And I think a lot of times we just get impatient. And a lot of times our flesh, like gets tired of it. And a lot of times the devil is trying to distract us from it.

And I think that's what the scripture is just saying. It's saying, apart from, you know, the branch of abiding in the tree, it can produce no leaves. In the same way, apart from the, me, you can produce nothing. Yeah. And so regardless of what you're doing, just remain connected to me. Yeah. The source. And I think that's what sanctification is. It's remaining.

Abiding is really, everything you said, it really, it conveys the idea of being at home in. Yes. Living in. And I literally have to keep that image in my mind. What is it? What, like right now in this moment, what would it look like for me to be? at home in Christ. When I'm anxious, what would it look like to be at home in you? When I'm irritated, what would it look like to be at home with you? When I'm, I don't know, bored with you, what would it look like to push past that and

be at home in you? And oftentimes, I think it means to just allow him to be, like, if Christ is a home, imagine going inside of that. You know what I'm saying? I think your prayer kind of changes if you just if you're at home in him you know like your conversation just changes if you're at home with him and that's important because when you try to sanctify yourself apart from abiding one you won't become fruitful and you'll notice it yeah yeah you'll see why ain't that why won't I change in this area why can't I have victory in this area

while I keep doing all the stuff and nothing seems to work. And it's because you're using the spiritual disciplines as like as these, like you cannot do spiritual disciplines without abiding and expect fruit. Yeah, that's good. So yeah, you read it, but you read it like how Eden be reading stuff. Eden will run through a book. That girl will run through a book. Let me ask her what she learned, how it changed her mind.

what what insight she gained from it I don't know And so it's like oh you read it But you didn't retain it Yeah you didn't eat what you read Yeah you didn't sit there So yeah sure you read the Bible Awesome I'm glad you know all 66 books

But did you pray through it? Yeah Did you meditate on it? Did you eat? Did you have conversations with other believers? Did you apply it? Did you believe it or did you just read it? Yeah

Because you just read it You thought that was going to change you Yeah You'd read in words that have life but you did not find life in them because you're not abiding. Yeah. Yeah, you pray. Okay, Lord, I'm here.

I'm sorry, but da da da da da da da da da da da da. No, pray. Be at home in him as you pray. Yeah, that's good. I just, I think I want people to tap into that because I know how discouraging it can be. Yeah. When you think you're doing enough and none of the things are working. And I'm simply saying it's possible that none, like, you're not seeing fruit.

because you're not abiding in the vine. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Would you say something that's different in your process and abiding? Like how is your process in abiding? And somebody said, Jackie, how do you abide in God? What does that practically look like for you? One thing I've learned is, I think so much of my Christian faith,

I didn't realize that the Lord positions us to abide. So a lot of abiding is by choice, creating time in your day to get with God, to read his word, going to church, fellowshiping with all the people. That's a decision you make. Yeah. But pruning is also God positioning you to abide. Yeah. Right?

So before he even said, I'm the vine and I'm the branches, before he even get there, he said, verse two, every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, every branch that does bear fruit he prunes that it may bear more. more fruit. And so the pruning process is also the process by which he cuts away the areas in you that are not abiding. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that's what I've learned is like some of my being at home in Christ and all of that is because you, you cutting me up. So I kind of need to sit with you. So I think it's, I really think it's as simple as praying for real, praying realistically. I pray more often. in the sense of there were there are areas of my life where I realized I thought how do I say it

I depended on me for victory yeah because I thought it didn't seem impossible so for example real real small example it might be what I should have did before this podcast which is there are times when I just I just don't feel like doing something. And my natural inclination is just to try to shake it off. Yeah. Like just not just just get through it, push through it, do the thing. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. Abiding would be to get on my face and say, Lord, I can't push through this. That's good. I actually don't have the resources or the capacity within me to have joy in this moment. Yeah. Joy is a fruit of your spirit. Yeah. That's a fruit of your spirit. Self-control of my.

emotions is a fruit of your spirit. And so even for something like this that seems minor, that seems not like a big deal. It seems not that deep. I'm going to get on my face before you so that you can bear fruit through me. I think that that has been the difference is those moments where I tried in my own strength to do what I could not actually do in my own strength. No, that's really good. That's really good. And that's really honest of you. And that's because I think that we all struggle with that. Like you're not the only one, you know. Um, yeah, I, If I'm just all the way honest, I love the fact that you brought out that the pruning process is so, it's so pivotal when it comes through our sanctification process because we just don't like to be pruned.

You know? We just don't like it. And what it made me think about was when I first started planting things in our, when we got our new home, some years back. And I started to plant these big elephant ears. in our front yard, and I just loved the way they looked. And I remember like this, this sense of joy that I would get when I would see these elephant ears grow because it was like, man, my hard work is actually paying off. And I remember the first time and the second time and the third time I started to see one or two leaves die. And it was almost like I was grieving because it was like my hard work is dying, you know.

and I remember researching what do I need to do to help this plant and they were saying you got to cut it off cut the dying thing off yeah and I remember like not wanting to right I remember saying I really don't want to cut this dead thing off because I worked so hard at it and I think that's what we feel in our sanctification process yeah a lot of times with the Lord it is like God I like I've done too much like I don't, I'm, I don't, I want to hold on to something because I find a sense of identity in this. And so God is saying there's actually some dead things in your character.

There's actually some dead things. And you're actually holding on to like last season's grace and fruit. And what I didn't realize is me not cutting that dead leaf off on that elephant ear. Not only was it like stunting the growth of the plant. but it was preventing new leaves from sprouting up. And I think that's what we do oftentimes in our walk with the Lord. It's like, God, it's like, I want to get more growth out of you. I want to get more fruit out of you.

But because you won't allow me to prune you in the way that I want, because you hold it on to old stuff. Like, just get cut. Yeah. You know, it's kind of like when we take our kids to the doctor, it's like, you know, this shot is going to be like 15 seconds. Yes. But it's going to help you on the long run.

And I think that's what pruning is. And so I just had to learn that through gardening. Like, no, if you let God prune us, it'll help us in the long run. Because here's the thing, like, really basic, basic biblical idea. God is never going to change his mind about wanting you to change. He's never going to change his mind about wanting you to change. So there is. I can't even look at you right now.

There's never going to be a part, a portion, a season, a moment, a day in your Christianity where he is not requiring of you diligence in changing. That's good. But there is also never a day, a moment, a circumstance, a season, where he is not creating circumstances and trials for the sole purpose of changing you. And the reason he is changing you is one, because he owns you. your image is on him he wants to be seen in the earth he wants to be glorified that is the intention but he also wants to change you so that you can know him the elements of us that he is pruning that he is

sanctifying that he is drawing out are elements of us that got to go for him to come in and so it's just like I think if you keep that in the forefront of your mind it will help you stay focused you just you have every intention on making me like Jesus. Period. So this difficult, difficult conversation I got to have, the intention is to make me like Jesus. Yeah, I'm at the job and my boss getting on my nerves, but maybe sovereignly they're getting on my nerves because somewhere in that you want to learn, teach me how to bear with people. Like maybe all the things are happening because you want me to change. That's good. That's good. We can't ever get beyond that. And I think we want to. Yeah.

We want God to leave us alone. We want to go to church. We want to read the Bible. We want to read the Bible. We want to listen to the worship music. It's like, you've been saved by me for 10 years. All right, bro. Like, cool. But he's like, yeah, you're not, you're not finished.

Yeah. And I want to just bring it back to because sometimes people can say, well, I think some people could say, I don't want God to leave me alone. But a lot of times we do. And this is the reason why we do, because we don't realize how much God speaks. to us through other people. And so, like, if God has primarily communicated to us through his word that he used other people to do, how much more is God trying to communicate his truth to you through other people?

Correct. And so one thing that we have to realize is like, oh, you think you good with God, but your denial of correction, your denial of rebuke, your denial of. rebuke, your denial of community is a rejection of the Lord itself. And I think that's what people have to understand. You are not just rejecting the people of God. You're rejecting God. And so I think that's what we have to realize that no, like, yeah, you don't want to listen to such and such who got 30 years more of Christianity lived in you. But you're not just rejecting her. You're rejecting the Lord. I want to read this.

It's 2. Peter, I'm going to read all over three through five. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desires. For this reason, make every effort. to supplement your faith with virtue and virtue with knowledge and knowledge with self-control and self-control with steadfastness and steadfastness with godliness and godliness with brotherly affection and brotherly affection with love for if these qualities are yours and are increasing they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we go. For whoever lacks these qualities is so near-sighted that he is. is blind, haven't forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. That's good. Basic. Basic. Like, the basic is, if you have been cleansed, then make every effort. But in your effort, do not do it without abiding in Christ, or you will be deeply discouraged

at the lack of fruit that you continue to bear. That's really good. That's dope. I kind of want to talk about the cross real quick. Yeah. Because we'll be talking about. talking about the cross. I think we, when we talk about the cross? Like, we just, we be, we miss it. And it's just like, I do like that, I think the chosen this season in particular has put the

cross back in the forefront of our minds. We're kind of, we're recording this right after Easter. So the cross is kind of there. And in the last few months, I've been particularly praying for more reverence, praying for more contrition, because the Lord is like, sacrifices and all of that. That's cool. I love that you be writing the books. I love that you got the podcast. I love that you be preaching at the conferences. I love these sacrifices that you make. But what I delight in is a broken heart, a contrite heart. I take pleasure in that. And so I've been praying for it. And I was scared actually to pray for it. And I told the Lord that I said, Lord, I'm actually scared to pray for a contrary heart because I don't know.

You'd be like that. You'd be scared to just pray for the things that, that, the Lord might, okay, you want that? Yeah, I don't know what you're going to do with that now. I don't know if you're going to break my leg. I don't know if you're going to make my locks fall out, my head. I don't know what you're going to do. And even that is the assumption that God always deals with us in harsh ways. Yeah.

That's not true. He's a good father, a good shepherd. And so the ironic thing is the way I know he is trying to produce that prayer in me is that it came in my heart to start rereading about the cross. To start rereading about it. Yeah. And so I've been reading John Stott's, the cross of Christ. And what it's been doing for me is, I don't know,

I guess my reflection of Christ has been really deep in the sense of, I don't know how to have words for this. Take your time. it's like sin must be really bad for your son to go through that to redeem us from it like do you get them like yeah sin must be horrific for you to sin must be horrific for you to sin the second person of the godhead yeah into the world and then for him to be crucified? Yeah.

Sin? Like, that's a, that's like, do you understand what I'm saying? No, yeah. That's outlandish. And then, but also, too, we have to think about Jesus in the Garden of Gatsimity, not, not him just going to the cross, but the, the anguish and the experience that he had in the Garden of Giacimity and knowing that the cross was next, like facing the wrath of God.

of our sin and rebellion against a holy and a righteous God is so deep to me. We got to talk about it. I got to find the scripture because I don't know it off the top of my head. The cup. The cup. We be talking about the guard and Gassimini and all the things. I love that we begin to. He was, you know, like, not my will, but your will be done.

But Paul's, he prayed multiple times, multiple times for the cup to pass. Yeah, take this cup away from me, but nevertheless. Not the cross to pass. Yeah. The cup. The cup, yeah. And it's like, I think we got to spend some time asking the question, what's in the cup? What's in the cup, what's in the cup that he don't want?

That's why I'm trying to find. What's in the cup? I'm supposed to say something stupid. What are you going to say? What are you going to say? Say it. Because, you know, rap is always talking about what's in your cup. What's in your cup?

it's sin in that cup too but it's it was the sin of the whole world and that yeah germany 25 verse 15 thus the lord the god of israel said to me take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath and make all the nations to whom i sin drink it um that's one verse among many where old testament metaphor around the cup is the cup of god's wrath and so when Jesus is in the Garden of Gassimony, praying and bleeding from his temple and begging God to remove the cup, to let the cup pass. It is that Jesus is completely angsty, anxious, despairing, sorrowful over simply enduring the wrath of his father for the sins of the world. And I think that puts a burden on me to say, if Jesus, like Jesus has a clear-sighted view of God's wrath in such a way that we don't.

We don't. Like, I'm over here. There are some sins I might do. I might have attitude or I might get rude with somebody that cut me off. You know what I'm saying? Like, we sin against God so freely because we're not worried about the cup like that. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

But it's like he knows something about the glory and the greatness. and the goodness of God where he's like, you are, to me, he doesn't know God's wrath. He's sinless. Yeah. So, but he does know God's goodness. Yes. He does know God's intimacy. And he's like, all I want is to be near you.

All I want is to know you. All I want to experience the alternative of what I've always known. That's so powerful. I don't want that. That's so powerful because I think it's, one, it's impossible for us to put ourselves in Jesus' shoes because we've never been sinless. He was a sinless and a perfect being. And so, like, one of the things I said, I think I said this when we was talking one day, when Jesus said, you know, like, Father, take this cup away from me, he wasn't being cowardly.

No. Right? Right. He wasn't, he wasn't being cowardly, right? Because, one, we have to understand that in, in Jesus being a hundred percent man and a hundred percent God, right? what we see is a wrestle with his flesh and his spirit but because he understood that god was ultimately good and holy and righteous that was the reason why he was content was saying but god nevertheless not my will but your will be done and so he acts in his flesh his flesh was

was wrestling as in human flesh not sinful flesh but just in his humanity right and that shows us that God does not care about us wrestling, but after we wrestle, we will we obey? So like, after you wrestle, still say yes. And so he wrestled, but at the end of the day, he was content with God will being done. And the reason why he was content with God will be done, because he know God is holy, God is righteous, and there is no flaw or sin in him. And so ultimately, he knew that all things will work out for the good, well, at the same time, wrestling with his flesh. And so I think that just reminds us like man like at the end of the day will we wrestle with our flesh in the same way that causes us to ultimately obey God you know because to think about the wrath of God as it

pertains to to sin I think that we have to just meditate on his holiness he's holy yeah he is he is holy and because he's holy he hates he hates sin and something I've been intrigued by is the idea that it's not described for us what Christ's experience of the cup actually was. There's no description of it, right? On the cross, he's taking on penalty. On the cross, he is experiencing hell. On the cross he is, and I don't mean that metaphorically, he literally is experiencing hell. Because we think hell is hell because of the fire.

We think hell is hell because of the devil. We think hell is hell because it's a weeping in the nationality. No, hell is hell because God's justice is there unabated. That's what hell is. So on the cross, Christ is experiencing the justice and the wrath of God with no relief. But we don't actually know what that was like for him. In the same way, we don't even know what hell is yet. And so it's like, is he losing his mind?

Because there's no peace? Is he experiencing absolutely? complete shame because there's no lifting of condemnation. Is he thirsty? Is his body weak? Is his heart? Like, imagine, imagine what it must be like to experience all of God's goodness being lifted. That's what hell is.

No kindness. No love. No community. No, no goodness. Yeah, this is the reason why the scripture says, where can I go to escape the presence of God? If I go to heaven, you're there. if I make my bed in hell below, you're there. Like his righteous wrath is there.

Yes. And so, like, to me, I don't even have nothing deep to say. I'm just saying, I cannot even fathom that, you know. And I think, yeah, yeah, I think this is the reason why God wants his people to be sanctified and to be reminded of the basics. I want to bring us back there. because there is no reason for God to be gracious and hold back his wrath if his people are not represented on the earth. In a lot of ways, we hold back the wrath of God.

We are the salt of the earth. And I think this is the reason why the Lord wants us to be holy and upright and pursue him. And I know it's difficult, but I think it's worth it, you know. Yeah, I think there is something about. about, I'll say it in the positive and then the negative. I've often said how I believe that heaven will be full of surprises. What do you mean about that? Because when you read Revelation or you read, I'll just say Revelation in particular,

we have descriptions of the new heaven and new earth, but it's not really that explicit. You don't have details. You don't really know what it will be like to die and be in New Jerusalem with a glorified body. We don't really know. Even when John or the prophets see, like, God, it's always like, it was light. The river was like crystal. It looked like rainbow. His voice sounded like thunder.

He don't have language for that experience because it's so other. It's so different. And so I think there's a sense in which God is preparing for us something that no ear has heard and no eye has seen because he's a good dad. I just think it's going to be like the best Christmas we've ever had in our entire life. But in the negative sense, I think there is something about hell, something about God's justice that we don't have, we just don't have any concept of. And I think that's why God went to such desperate measures to save us from it. Yeah.

I think there is something about God's justice that we literally are blind to. And he's going through, he's gone through every type of extreme measure to save. us from himself. You know what's crazy? What that made me think about. I did a conference. I did a conference, and I hope this is not too off topic, but I did a conference a couple of weeks ago. It was an apologetics conference. And in this apologetic conference, you had a lot of atheists who were just asking a lot of questions because it was a conference with atheists was debating Christians and stuff like that. And so I would have conversations doing break, but a lot of the atheists. And their questions were very basic, but just questions we hear all the time.

Like, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, why did God allow this. Why, why did God allow that? Like, why, was baby's going to hell? Like, they just hit, like, really simple questions like that. And I, I, I'll, I begin to think to think to myself, and I don't know if I even shared this with you, I think one of the reasons why we have questions like that as it pertains to God's justice. It's exactly what you just said. We've never seen perfect justice. we've never seen justice lived out perfectly and I think that's the reason why we have so many questions we've never seen one perfect judge we've never seen one perfect prosecutor we've never seen one perfect

defense attorney we've never seen one perfect police officer we don't even act justly towards one another and so I think when it comes to God's justice we have to understand that because he's good he's going to come back one day and judge everything perfectly and justly and right and it takes faith to believe that but then when I think about hell to bring it back there uh-huh like we because we've never seen perfect justice lived out on earth we've never seen it this is the reason why we have so many questions because we've never seen it it is impossible for us to understand or even fathom what God's justice will look like there. That's why we should avoid it.

And here... Does it make sense what I'm saying? Yes, yes, yes. Because I want y'all to know we're being intentional. I'm being intentional on how I'm driving this conversation. Because even this exploration of justice in hell starts to give you a little more understanding of why grace is amazing. it's this discussion right here. Which is why when we are preaching the good news without the bad news, the good news just ain't hitting the same.

Because you're leaving out the reason the good news even had to come to be is because your sin deserves God's wrath. It deserves God's justice. But God is over here like, you know, I love these people. I love them. And I like let me let me put forward for some some centuries these goats and these lambs as a shadow. Yeah. As a as a type. As a metaphor for some years so that when my son comes, you know I'm here to atone.

The ultimate lamb. And it's like on the cross, Jesus is over here. I don't know if him and the Lord had a conversation. I don't know at what point he knew justice was satisfied. I don't know how that felt. Like, it was like, okay, I took enough raft now. Like, I don't know at what point that happened. But I do know that he says it is finished.

So it's clear he drank the whole cup. And here's one thing that I was researching the other day that really threw me is, you know how he's offered wine? Remember? Yes. At one point, he's offered some wine. He turns that wine away. towards the end of his life

he's offered some wine he takes that sip. Yeah. I said, why he reject that wine? Why he take that wine? What was that about? Bring it down. Surprisingly, I found out there was two different types of wine. The wine that Jesus rejected

is the wine that people take to numb pain. The wine that Jesus actually accepted was the wine that people would take while working to stay alert. Hello. So you have Jesus over here. Like, I actually want to, I want to carry the weight without any numbing.

I want to take the full wrath of God without escaping any of the pain. That's how you was when you were like, I don't want to ever do it. I want to just experience all it is. I fully wanted to epidule. Numb me. But what I, like, you had to understand, like, Jesus didn't want to not do his job to the fullest. That's good. To the point that he was willing to take the wine that would keep him up.

Yeah. That is absolutely insane. That's beautiful. So then when I think about my life and I think about my own suffering, it's like, what is my wine that I use to keep me numb? Why don't I want to stay alert? That's good. Why don't I want to carry my cross in the same way that Christ did?

Why? Because I need him to be like him. I actually don't want to feel the weight of my suffering. I actually don't want to feel the pruning like that. I want to know. Give me Netflix. Give me the movie. Give me a conversation with people who can distract.

Give me whatever you got to give me where I don't have to carry my cross with the weight that it actually requires. Yeah, Jesus didn't take any short cuts to the cross. None. He took the long way. None. Yeah. So he can rightfully actually say it is finished. Yeah.

Because he actually bore the full penalty of God's wrath on sinners. Then you got, you know, the people, they take his body down, all the stuff. They put them in the grave. They put them in the tomb. they got, you know, the guards watching over. It's like y'all is foolish. Y'all really think these guards and this rock going to keep God from getting out that grave.

You really, when you really think he goes, like, you don't remember what he did with Lazarus? You don't remember that? Yeah. It's crazy how a lot of people missed him. They didn't actually believe that he was God. Correct. You know, and I think we live like that sometimes.

We don't live like he's God. We still miss them in our own lives, which is very ironic. But they saw when that temple was split in two, they were like, oh, what we do? We didn't messed up. You mentioned then the veil being torn makes me want to speak in an unknown tongue. Because it's like he tore the veil. You have access into the holies of holies now. without the blood of bulls and goats.

You got the blood of Christ. And this is why the enemy lies to us and tries to keep us from going into the place that God died for us to have access to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I kind of feel led to say this too. Because I think a lot of times when, so one of the things that I've,

you all came back? Go ahead. I think a lot of times when you talk about God's rave, when I would do street evangelism, a lot of people who've heard the gospel or came from churches and heard about God's wrath when I were minister on the streets, they straight away from the church because they almost look like God as a moral monster. Like why is he so angry in the first place? Like why did our sin?

I think people almost think that Jesus dying for our sin made God start being loving. And that's not actually what happened. Correct. Right, right. And so when the Bible talks about Jesus being the propitiation for our sin, it simply means the process in which God's raft has been removed from us. Right. And so I think what we're not saying is that God was some morally moral monster and Jesus' death made him be loving. right the best way I can explain it if I go outside and midnight and I look up in the sky and all

I see is other darkness it isn't that the sun is not shining the sun is just not shining on me but the sun will not shine on me when until the earth rotates causing morning to come taking me out of darkness and bringing me into light well Jesus being the propitiation for our sins is that process is the process in which God's raft is removed from us taking us out of darkness and bringing us into God's marvelous light, right? And so God's love is consistent, just like the sun is consistent. But because our sin and rebellion against the holy and a righteous God, it made it impossible for God's love to be fully expressed upon us.

And so when Jesus drunk that cup, right, what he did was he allowed God's eternal and consistent love to be shifted upon us, taking us out of darkness and then breaking us into light. So God is always loving. He is not some angry, vengeful God. He just hates sin, and we were in it. And Jesus took us out of it. And so I think that's very important for me to clarify. Romans 322 through 26 says,

The righteousness of God through faith, for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness

because in his divine forebearance, he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be the just and justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Because one thing people miss is that forgiveness is a problem

if there's no justice. Say it again. Forgiveness is a problem if there is no justice. If God is the lawgiver, if God has a moral standard, if people disobeyed disobey that law if they offend the judge, he cannot forgive them and maintain his righteousness

if there is no penalty for their law breaking. That's good. Does it make sense what I'm saying? So I think people want God to forgive without there being any justice. But if God forgives without there being justice, then God actually breaks his own law. That means that God is unjust. And so Jesus coming to die and become the propitiation for our sins and to bear the weight of our sins and to take on that justice positions God where he can forgive and maintain his whole his holy

standard. That's good. Like like you teach you forgiveness is a problem. Yeah. If justice is not paid. Yeah. Absolutely. And so the cross, it was it was God's way to show you love and still be himself. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I love about this verse I saw, um, I have a the Daily Bible app widget on my phone so I can see the verses every day. And it was showing the CSB translation of that verse. I don't read, I read CSB sometimes. I don't teach from it. And so I didn't know that it translated this way. But it basically read as whom God put forward as the mercy seat. The mercy seat. I said, wait a minute. God put, like to, and when I was researching it, it was something about how the Greek and the Septuagin and all the stuff, how propitiation can't, can't,

and basically communicate Christ as mercy seat the way it reads. And one blog I was reading was saying how, you know, the mercy seat was basically the Ark of the Covenant. It had the two angels, one angel on one side, one angel on another side, and it basically represented the place where Israel could go to receive mercy, to receive atonement. And he was saying that it is very much similar or ironic, which I don't think is ironic,

that when Mary goes to the tomb and sees that Jesus is not in it, she sees an angel on one side and an angel on another side because Christ has become the mercy seat. Wow. And so it's just like, like, that's a beautiful picture. It's just like these are the basics. Yeah, the basics. Because I'm pretty sure as y'all are listening, I'm pretty sure you're feeling something. You're feeling humbled.

You're feeling maybe excited and edified. But I also feel like this zealousness to be like, oh, you're actually worthy. You're actually really good. But I also am starting to feel like missional. Like, ooh, I need to say this out loud a little bit more. And so that's what the good news does for us is it sets us right. It, like, purifies our vision. It has us do the things that we were actually called to do, or we're not getting distracted.

And let me just say this. Let no one convince you that talk like this is fire and brimstone. Because I've heard a lot of that on social media. We cannot truly, the only reason. You know what will be fire and brimstone? Hell. The only reason why, you know, the gospel starts off of good news, God creating his creation and calling the good.

But the only reason why the ultimate good news is good, because God cares so much to bring his son to the world to take care of the bad news, which was, you know, us falling from grace and sent into the world, causing us to be disconnected to a holy and a righteous God. And so I know we want to rejoice in God's goodness. I know we want to rejoice in God's holiness. I know we want to rejoice in the blessings and all of that. But can we truly rejoice if we're not reminded of what we've been saved from? And so it's not fire and brimstone.

It's ultimately to point us to something great so that we can truly appreciate it and taking in how we should, you know. I want us to deal with the resurrection real quick. Let's do it. That's the full gospel. He got up. Because, yeah, he ain't just died now. he got about that grave.

Yeah. And I think it is necessary to realize how resurrection should be understood and received in the Christian life. Because I would imagine a part of us seeing how the resurrection applies to us is a part of why we struggle the way we do. You know what I'm saying? So Romans 8, verse 9 says, you are however, are not in the flesh. but in the spirit, if in fact the spirit of God dwells in you, anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. If the spirit of him who raised Jesus from

the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in you. How does this apply to us? It means that when was in that tomb in there in three days, the Spirit of God resurrects him by resurrecting him. He's resurrecting nerves. He's resurrecting blood. He's resurrecting decomposition. He's resurrecting the brain. He's resurrecting all the stuff that makes a body a body.

Jesus raises from the dead. And he is saying, you know, that same spirit that resurrected them nerves and resurrected them brain patterns and reversed decomposition meaning there are some elements in your heart and in your mind and your life that need to be reversed. Like that same spirit that dwells in him. If you received his spirit, we have to remind ourselves. Like, we got to actually start saying this stuff.

We got to sound crazy sometimes. Like, you need to go into your job with the bosses getting on your name. If the same spirit. Come on, person eyes. Jesus Christ from the dead dwells in me. He will give life to my mortal body even today, even right now, even in this moment.

We got to say that. We got to say this stuff out loud to ourselves. Yeah. Remind ourselves of the cross, but also remind ourselves the fact that because he got up, I will get up to. And not just future resurrection. Present resurrection. Like, I have the power to get up today because God got up. Y'all think I'm just talking. First Corinthians chapter 4th.

Y'all think I'm making stuff up. See? You see how she ain't feel like doing this podcast in the beginning. But now she's just turning the page. You know what? Let me go. Let me go to Revelation. I know what warfare is. I know.

That's why I was like, I said, let me just push through Lord Jesus. Resurrection. Push through. Is it second Corinthiansius 4? We over time. She don't care. Hey, we are talking about the cross. We're talking about the cross now.

That's how you know you're a Christian. You had an attitude 40 minutes ago. Hey, we love the Lord. He heard my cry. He makes me light out in green patches. I shall not want. Second Corinthians four, bro. be quiet. He says that ain't it. We have this treasure in jars of clay to show that there's

surpassing power, what power resurrection power belongs to God and not to us. And I'm not making that up. Paul, when Paul met Christ, Christ's word to Paul had everything to do with Christ's relationship with the church. The church you are persecuting. If you persecute them, you are persecuting me. So Paul has a conception of union with Christ that is permeating. all of his letters to the churches. So when he says this power, it means I am united with Christ and therefore have the power of Christ in me, right? So we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. Here we are. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed. Interesting. We are perplexed, but not driven to despair. Interesting. We are

persecuted but not forsaken. Interesting. Struck down, but not destroyed. Interesting. Always, here goes, carrying in the body the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. What are you trying to say, Jackie? I'm saying that the alternative to every experience that Paul had with affliction in his body, that second thing that he communicates is resurrection power, meaning he was perplexed, but he should have had despair, but resurrection power. He was persecuted and should have been forsaken, but resurrection power. He was struck down but not destroyed.

Why? Resurrection power. Everything that should have happened didn't happen. Not because he was Paul. Not because he was smart. Not because he was efficient. Come on now. It was all because he had a resurrection power. So when I say that resurrection power is not something Christians just experienced at the end of their days.

It's something we experience right now. We just have to believe it. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. I'm done. And because he understood that, because he understood the present, he also understood the future. And this is the reason why Paul also said, my life is hidden in Christ. and when Christ who is my life appears,

then will I appear with him in glory? And so because he had a rightful concept of his present life being risen in Christ, he knew what to look forward to. That was a word, though. This is why we got to get back to the basics. Back to the basic. You know what I'm saying?

So it's like some of us spend too much, I'm not going to say too. Some of us are, we love Ephesians 6 and we miss in Ephesians 1 through 5. You get what I'm saying? where it's like, nah, like, blessed are you? Like, you in heavenly places with Christ where he is seated at the right hand of the father.

Like, I think I don't want, I don't want us as Christians to major in the minors. I think the miners are good and useful and helpful and beautiful, especially if they come from scripture, then that means it's something we need to deal with. We need to talk about. But I just want you to stay on guard with being interested in the things of Christ more than you are of Christ. Like, I want you to make sure that. you are keeping your mind, your affections, your attention, your teaching, rich in Christ.

That's good. Like if I'm not, if I'm not, and that's a, that's a personal, not private, but that's a personal work that will flow over into public mission, right? So if I am not keeping Christ central in my life, he is not going to be central in my ministry. And so if you see in your ministry that you are focusing on everything other than Christ, more than Christ himself that is a personal problem that repentance can fix. Yeah, yeah. He has to be in a center about theology.

Yeah. That's good. So I would invest in the Cross of Christ by John Stott. I will put that in the show notes. I will also link this sermon series by Paul Washer about the cross, which I think will reorient us all really well. It's the one I think of, I'm thinking. The one where he was in the prison.

Oh, my goodness. he went in. You saw it? I'm not even going to put you out there. Yeah, so one, I heard it when you was listening to it, when he was talking about, remember I said that he said something that he said in the old sermon or whatever,

and so when you listened to it, I went downstairs in the basement and listened to half of it. You watch all of them? Because it's seven, seven. I just watched the first. Okay, praise, yeah. It's a seven series about just the cross. Even if you want to go deeper,

I think there are other, there are terms that are important, And I think for all Christians to know, such as not just sanctification, but justification, propitiation, expiation, atonement. Like all of those terms, they're not just theological terms to know so you can flex. They're terms to know so that you can believe better. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's it.

All right, peace. With the Perry's is produced by the Perrys with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley edited by the team at Tread Lively artwork by hop and music by swoop thank you for listening now go with God