With The Perrys - Would We Attend A Gay Wedding?

Episode Date: March 4, 2024

A well-known pastor and radio host recently came under fire for his public opinion on attending the wedding of a same-sex couple, and it got the Perrys talking. How can you be faithful to Jesus while caring for and honoring people? This conversation starts at the foundation of the issue: knowing what you believe about God and marriage before discerning your ‘yes’ or your ‘no.’   https://www.covenanteyes.com — Try Victory by Covenant Eyes FREE for 30 days with promo code PERRYS!   Resources: 1: Christianity Today, "Alistair Begg Meets the Politically Correct" 2: Does the Bible Support Same-Sex Marriage? by Preston Sprinkle 3: Gay Girl, Good God by Jackie Hill Perry 4: Finding the Right Hills to Die On by Gavin Ortlund Subscribe to the Perrys' newsletter: https://withtheperrys.myflodesk.com/zhfus4jx1s Join Preston's discipleship community for men: https://www.patreon.com/PrestonPerry/membership To support the work of the Perrys, donate via PayPal: https://paypal.me/withtheperrys Shop BOLD Apparel: boldapparel.shop Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi. Hello. That was really awkward. How are you? That was an awkward. It's been a while. Hey, guys. You got to get back into the groove of things.

You ever see somebody you ain't seen in a long time? Well, I get awkward because it's like, oh, I know we used to know each other, but it's not like we cool now. And so I'm not going to get you all the energy I gave you a high school. So what makes it awkward? I don't know. It just makes me uncomfortable. Wow. Because I have this like, it feels like maybe you think I should come with the same energy.

And so now because there's some incongruence between your expectations and my inner reality, I'm uncomfortable now. The life of an introvert is so intriguing. I don't know if it's introversion. I don't know if that's introversion. It's just Jackie. It might be.

Yeah. You're an interesting person. Is that what you felt when the camera started rolling? No, I was just mimicking. You felt like our audience, you haven't seen them in a while. It's been a while. I don't know y'all no more. I was mimicking how I.

Anyway, she don't know me no more. Hey guys. How are you? How y'all doing? We missed y'all. I didn't miss you. Wow. I don't know them.

But that's cool that you missed them. I miss them. I miss them sharing the podcast every week's and I must you bless them. I miss this. You miss me? This. You miss me? This.

The mics and talking with you about Christian things. I'm saying, but it's okay for you to just say, I miss me. I'm with you all the time. You miss me in this capacity. No, I miss this, Negro. You miss me and close to me. No, you're trying to make it. You're trying to do things that ain't, ain't, don't need to be done.

You love me. Just say it. Today, we're going to talk about same-sex marriage. Ooh, wow. Going to come out swinging. Right. Right. Because this was probably two weeks ago.

We were outside of this church that we were visiting. and I think I was telling you about the recent controversies around Alex DeBegg. Alex DeBeg is a preacher-teacher that I respect and listen to a lot. And he made some comments where he was encouraging a grandmother to attend her transgender, I guess, grandchild's wedding as an act of compassion and to bring a gift. And like the evangelist and what you call them evangelicals. The evangelical world went up and on. They didn't booted Alice.

They're all for radio shows. They didn't remove them from conferences. It just was throwing the baby out with the bathwater because it's common. So, throw his 30 years of ministry out the window. It's intense. And so me and pressing out into a conversation just around the subject of same-sex marriage or same-sex weddings.

And we thought it would be cool to have it live. And we even stopped because me and you was going back before. I was like, let's just pause it. Yeah. And actually do that. Because we differ. That's ultimately the end of the point. His stance is not my stance.

We got to, but at the same time, our stance is the same. The foundation is the same. The foundation is the same, but how it's fleshed out is different. And I think one of the reasons why the situation, that situation,

the other situations like it, bothers me so much, is because I don't think that it's thought about deeply. I think it is very dogmatic. I think it's very like black and white. and I do think that Christians aren't taught to think about things in nuance, with nuance. And so, yeah, so that's the reason why you didn't bother me, but the situation is seeing it online is just like, man. And I think that we both, you know, agree with the way he was treated.

It was just that the way he was treated was crazy. Yeah. Yeah, but I expect that of people who are particularly in reform spaces. they have a very tribal, you know, it's either you're with us or you're not kind of energy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like other spaces move that way as well, but not like we see some. And that's not shade to reform people.

No, it's not. Because I am theologically reformed and I go to a reform seminary. So that means I know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah. I do think that some reformed spaces, they do tend to be very tribal. It's like us against the world. And it's not necessarily about theology. Before we even talk about this, one of the reasons why I think the Alis Abek situation

bothered me so much is because I've seen the same treatment kind of done with us and done with you in some ways. You know, when you went to go preach at a particular conference, you know, a lot of times these spaces say, man, it's about theology. But when you went to go preach or teach at a particular conference or a particular space, the critique... You're talking about to propel with Christine Kay? Yeah, propel, even the thing that you're about to do recently.

With Bethel. With Bethel. With Bethel or whatever. The issue that people had was that you're attending, that you are on a flyer. Now, once are they asking you, Jackie, what is the message? If the concern is they don't teach. write theology or they, you know, false teachers or whatever. And you have a history of putting out theologically sound books.

Theologically sound seminary. Right. Theologically sound YouTube and Instagram. Right. Right. If the gospel is what you guys are concerned about, why not come to Jackie and say, Jackie, we know that you have a track record of being theologically sound. We kind of, you know.

And not even. just theologically sound, but countercultural in the way I, like, when have I ever gone into a space and not told the truth? Right, right. And so, and that's my point. And people were upset not because you went and your message changed, but because you were on a flyer with people that they didn't believe was of us. Yes, because the assumption is that you are partnering with false teachers.

Yeah. But my thing is, define partnering. If you came out to say, I joined the board. But it's like, we literally, like, it's so silly. Like, think about it. Like, all of our, for all of our ministry, we used to do the Colgate Convention every year doing poetry. We used to, there is no denomination that we haven't accepted the invitation

and our message hasn't changed in the last 13 years. But because y'all are our particular camp that doesn't like another. another particular camp, when you see me on a flyer with somebody and you say it's partnering. I have so much to say, but I'm not going to say it because I refuse to let this be a sound bite. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to say Jesus said, go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded. And so I will say this. I am going to do that.

And there are plenty of things that I actually do say no to because of, you know, what the partnership or the presumption of partnership could do, you know what I'm saying? But I think there are some things that I feel called to do. And I'm going to be faithful. Well, I'll say this because I'm your husband and my job is to protect you. Okay. I'm going to say this and we can move on. All right, because this ain't even the topic.

Right, right. The title was not. Jackie is teaching at Bethel's conference. But it's online when the concern is not what. what you're teaching, but who you are on a fly with, we know that in a lot of ways it's not about the gospel, but it's about what tribe you belong to. And I don't think that's biblical.

And I think that people need to repent for slander. Okay. But that being said, so what is marriage? I think before we can have a conversation around if we would attend a same-sex wedding, I think we first have to establish what marriage is. Yeah.

Because that lays the foundation of everything. Yeah, marriage is an institution. you know, that God ordained between a man and a woman. How do you know that? Because Genesis lets us know that in the beginning, in the beginning he created male and female, and he joined them together as one to be one flesh. And he gave them the command to tend over the garden, you know,

and to cultivate life and to be fruitful and multiply. and we see design from the beginning when it comes to man and women relationship. And so we see. Can I read the text for you? Yeah. Genesis chapter 2, verse 24 and 25. It says, therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife. And they shall become one flesh.

Yeah. Right. And so we see, we see. Want to make sure they knew it. There was a source for your opinion. Yeah. We see, we see design from the beginning. And we also see design in, you know, coming in the, in the New Testament when God tells us that, you know, we are to cling to our wives, right?

So we see it in Genesis. We see it, you know, in the New Testament. And so I think that's what marriage is. It is relationship, a union between one man and one woman. Okay. Okay. And so my question for you is, why do you think, oh, so do. Do you think attending a same-sex marriage is problematic and why?

Potentially. So. What? We didn't talk about this the other day. I think it's because it's your phrasing. As some of you may know, I've had my fight against porn. I've shared my story in the past to let people know that they also can be free from it. Job 31 says, I've made a covenant with my eyes not to look on a woman with lust.

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90% of children ages 8 to 16 have viewed pornography online and most while doing homework. And this is why we want to invite you to check out the Ministry of Covenant Eyes. For over 23 years, Covenant Eyes has been helping men, women, and families in the fight against pornography with their industry leading software and resources. Victory by Covenant Eyes is software that fosters online integrity through relationships centered around accountability. With powerful accountability features built in an optional blocking technology, victory by Covenant Eyes is a tool in the fight to live a porn free life. Protect your family today by visiting Covenant Eyes.com and use the promo code Perrys for 30

days free or by clicking on the link in the show notes today. That's CovenantEyes.com and be sure to use the promo code Perrys. All right, y'all. And so I wouldn't, I wouldn't even frame it as is it problematic or not. I would simply say, do I think that attending a same-sex wedding is the wisest way to display or show compassion to a same-sex couple? Ah, I lean on the path of, no. I think there are other ways to display love and compassion. And this is why. I think when you go, you got Genesis 2 that says, therefore man shall leave his father and mother, da-da-da-da-da.

cling to the wife, da-da-da-da-da. We see God is the one who created marriage. And it created marriage before sin even entered into the world. And so that means that he really, if he's the originator of it, then he's the Lord of it. He defines it, right? I've had people say, well, what about like attending a wedding with two unbelievers? The fundamental thing that makes marriage, marriage is sex difference, not necessarily religious symmetry or like similarity.

You know what I'm saying? And so like. Not salvation. A man in a woman. So y'all could be two unbelievers or one unequally yoked and stuff like that. I can attend that because you're still male and she's still female. Yeah. But I think when it comes to a wedding that is not a wedding, I can't, I can't, I can't go.

You can't go. Okay. Let me back up. Okay. Okay. Let me explain my thought. Come on. The way I.

We got time. It ain't 30 minutes with periods no more. It's kind of like, I don't worry. and a half with the paris. I think God cares about marriage because he created it. That's one. So he cares deeply about it. When you get to Ephesians 5, you see that Paul says that this mystery is profound and

that he's talking about marriage and that it refers to Christ and the church. Meaning when God created marriage, he created it as a symbol or even a sacrament to reflect God's marriage to what the church would be because of Christ Jesus, right? And so if it's a symbol that then represents the gospel, it's even more important, right? Because now I want to make sure that I'm honoring this mystery that God made to reflect what his son did. Yeah. So that's too. So all of that kind of gives me a reverence for marriage.

And then when you add in the fact that to me, being present at a wedding can often communicate agreement, affirmation, support, even covenantal accountability in some spaces. Like my presence here says I'm going to support, lift up, pray for this union. And so to me, my presence in the room can communicate something that I don't actually want to be communicated. Because I can't support it. Yeah. I can't affirm it. I can't.

If I pray for it, I'm praying that God breaks it up. I'm not praying that it's, you get what I'm saying? Like, I can't. I can't. Yeah. I can't. Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay. Now, I'm pretty sure you want to hear my thoughts. I know them, but go ahead. They do. Okay. Well, so it's not that I don't agree with everything that you just said. Right. Because I 100% agree with everything you just said.

I think sometimes for me the issue is when Christians approach this issue as if it is utter sin to attend a wedding that's of the same sex, like a same-sex marriage. When the Bible doesn't say, if you go to a wedding or an event that celebrates same-sex love, you're necessarily in sin. Now, I do think that all disobedience to God is sin, right? And so I do think that if God doesn't want you to go there, like personal conviction, I think that's sin, right? But I think the issue, and I think that we all can agree with is it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a wisdom thing. Yes. Right. It's a wisdom issue, right? Because we already, it's like going to the club. Is going to the club sin? Not necessary. Right, right. But is it wise?

It's not. Yeah. So, right. And the reason why it's not wise is because we've already, because we've already established what a wedding is and what God calls a wedding, right? We know that our participants, a patient at this event would be in a lot of ways communicating to the public that I agree with this. It makes it confusing. It makes your allegiance to Jesus muddy to some people. It has to potential to do that. And so, you know, I think this is, this is my own person to because I do think that we look at this situation as black and white. So when Alis Abed came out and people was like, you're insane. Let's take all your ministry off a radio and all of this stuff. It's like, come on. Have you thought about this deep?

because I think that it's possible, and this might ruffle a little feathers, right? I think that it's possible for a believer to seek the Lord, and I do think that there is a way for the Lord to allow somebody to go to a wedding that's same sex. Okay. So, go ahead. So, you're about to ask a question? Just to flesh that out.

So to paint a picture, right, I'll give you an example. because of my allegiance to Jesus, because of my convictions, because of my theological principles and truths that I stand on and I live by, if my sister got engaged to another woman and she came to me and said, And his sister, his sister's with a man. My sister's married to a man. This is hypothetical, right? Pressing got a gay sister.

We ain't never known that part. No, no, no, no, no. Did she read gay girl? Or my brother or my uncle, somebody that I had a deep relationship with, came to me and said, would you come to my wedding? my first my I already know my first instinct would be like no because of my beliefs right right but at the same time I think and the reason why my my my my first answer will be no is because I stand on a theological truth and I stand on a principle that that that that this gospel is true

and the world got to like align with what I believe you know what I'm saying so that's that's what I stand on But at the same time, even though God, I think God honors that, I also think that God is a relational God who cares deeply, not just about our relationship with him, but our relationship with one another. And so I don't think that God is this dogmatic, you know, God in heaven with these dogmatic rules and saying, I don't care that it's a wrestle that you are afraid of this relationship being ruined. I do think that God wants us to choose mother and father. He doesn't want us to choose mother and father or any other relationship over him because his Bible said so. Right. But I do think he wants us to wrestle because relationship matters, right? And so, for example, right, I think one way in which I can go to a wedding if I pray and ask the Lord, Lord, do you want me to go here, right?

I think it's a possibility that God can say, man, in order for you to go to this wedding, you might have to do some hard things. and I don't think people talk about the hard things as much, right? Because if my sister wanted me to attend her wedding, right, for example, I'm getting there. Bear with me. And she says, and she says, I will be really hurt and I feel like our relationship would be ruined. If I look at my wedding pictures and I don't see you, I would have to do the hard thing and say, you know what, can we have a private conversation? In that private conversation, I would have to tell my sister, whoever it is.

I think the only way I can attend your wedding is if two things happen. is if you accept the fact that if I attend this event, I do not consider this event a wedding. And don't consider it a wedding. This is not a wedding in my eyes. I don't care how beautiful your vows are. I don't care how many tears y'all have. Right?

I don't celebrate this with you. And so if you're comfortable with me going there and me standing in the audience, sitting down in the audience and not considering this a wedding. Okay. So if she says, okay, yes, even though you don't consider it, I still want you to be there. I say, okay, now a second thing has to happen, right? And this is, I will emphasize that this is not for people.

This is, this is about my relationship with Jesus. Because I made a public proclamation to the world that I served as God. Going to your wedding kind of makes that public proclamation muddy. And so if you are okay With me going online and saying I'm attending this wedding That I don't agree with That I love this person But I don't love this event

That I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I That I that I that I that I don't care about this if you are okay with that Then I think is I think potentially because I think the issue is But who would ever be okay with that that that's the thing because I think for me I'm about this this is just It's my personal opinion. I'm about having, I'm about doing everything I can to, to make peace in a relationship without portraying the God that I gave my life to.

Right. And so my thing is, if a person that loves me is getting married to the same sex, wants me to attend their wedding, I think how you presented to them by saying, you want me to bend. And if you want me to ban, you got to bend too. Okay. You got to bend a little bit. I actually bring more heat to me because I run the risk of the people that's gay affirming at the wedding rolling their eyes at me for three hours. And I run the risk of Christians, you know, the Christians who will never have a successful relationship, a healthy relationship with somebody in same-sex relationship and don't even know how to deal with that community,

just yelling out hatred and ignorant comments. I run the risk of y'all attacking me. But I think that, I think, I personally think that God will honor the fact that I'm honoring him, while I'm still trying to keep a door open for that person to come in my life and for me to be a light to them. I think it is honorable. I know that was, that was, that was a lot. No, it was awful. It was awful because it means you think.

Yeah. I think it's honorable to say that I will have a conversation about what. I believe where I stand before or like as an element of if I should go or not. Yeah. Because I do think some people are just prone to just saying yay or nay without any conversation at all. And I think that person deserves that. I think that person deserves that. I don't think.

And I think a lot of times, and I'm just, this might sound a little harsh. I think a lot of times we just walk too cowardly. we'll try to we'll try to be faithful to Jesus while dishonoring people and I think God want us to do both. I think he wants us to be faithful to him while at the same time honoring the people who don't even serve him. And so there's a way for us to do both. It's to say, man, if I come here, do you know what I believe about Jesus and what he

says in the Bible? So therefore I can't agree with that. And because I proclaim to the world what I believe, right? I'm not going to make an ambiguous or a cryptic message online about how I know it's going to be very clear

I'm going because I love this person and I want to keep this door a relationship open but I don't agree with this if you're okay with that and sometimes for us to say

somebody might not be okay with that that's true but we can't say I think most people would not be okay with that most people wouldn't be okay because I actually okay some backup

I think I'm all for your first part, which is let's have a conversation about it, you know, how you feel about what I feel, what I believe, da, da, da, da, da, da. Because I think God is faithful to potentially bless even those conversations. Because when I've encouraged people to, when I've encouraged people in the direction of potentially not going, I've actually tried to encourage the fact that God can use your no. Yeah. God can use your conversation about why you cannot attend to actually do work in people's hearts.

And I have evidence, which is I had a conversation with a young lady once whose sister got engaged to a woman. And she read my book, Gay Girl Good God, before having the conversation with her sister. And that led her to the conclusion, like, I don't think I can go to your wedding a good conscience. So she called her sister and told her sister that she could not. attend the wedding, why she could not attend the wedding, and basically preached the gospel to her sister. The sister got off the phone and repented and canceled the wedding. So stuff like that tells me that God can use the conversation about the no to actually do work. But secondly, I think your point

about making a public declaration of what you believe, I just don't think that actually works. I think it does. Why don't think it works? Because I think it can come across a shaming. Because let's say we're talking about your sister. People don't know your sister. So now all of a sudden we know your sister. We know your sister's situation with being gay and getting married and stuff like that. And we know you don't approve of it. When that person was, it's not like the public even knew that.

Yeah. So you put them in a position to loki be embarrassed. Yeah. But my thing is I put them in a position, but I gave them the choice. And so it's not like I. But it's a choice that no one's going to make. So you end up actually, you're just, you're not going to go to the wedding at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah. No one's ever going to say, you know what? Sure, to your three,

four hundred thousand followers, please say you're not, you're going to my wedding, but you don't agree because I'm going to hell. You don't know that. Because some people, because I, because I have family members who don't care about what my followers think and who don't even, it's not even in my circle, who's not even, they don't, they don't really care. Like I, I have family members, I don't care what your people say. I want you here. I think I have family members that would do that and will say that. But also, too, as far as you, but do you think that honor, them. Yeah, I think it honors them because I didn't, I didn't, I didn't communicate how I would communicate. Okay, tell me how you do. Give me an example. I haven't, I haven't necessarily fleshed out

word for word what I would say, but I would do it in a way that will honor them as most, as most I can. I won't say, I think this wedding is an abomination, but I'm going anyways because I love her. I wouldn't, I wouldn't use words that would even trigger Christians. They're going to burn in a lick of fire. In my mind, I'm just thinking about, you posting a real with like yeah I wouldn't say that Jesus culture music and let me just say this let me just say this

I want people because I think a lot of times the culture be quiet I think the culture that we live in I think that if you don't come out and speak the exact sentiments of people not only do they not hear you but they have a tendency of hearing you

saying something completely different and so I can see people hearing this and say Preston to agree with it's like I never said that I actually started off saying my first inclination would be to say no because of why I stand biblical. I'm saying we talking about the public thing.

I know, but I just want to make that clear because I just kind of, I hear people, people hear what they want to hear. But what I'm saying is with the public thing that I would, I would do my best to honor them in the way I communicated. While at the same time letting people know

that if someone sees me here, or if the public sees it, it's not even about me trying to, you know, know, look a certain way in the public. It's really not about that. It's, it's, it's, I don't want to confuse people. And so I do think, I do think that I would try my best to honor, honor, honor the, the God that I serve, while at the same time honoring them. But I, I do think it's about making your public, you know, dedication to Jesus, not money. And so like, if, if, if a person really wants me there, I feel like, if you really want me there that bad, can you respect

you know, the foundation that I stand on, can you respect that? And can you respect me not wanting to damage that, right? Because the issue of going to a same-sex marriage is not me being insane. It's me agreeing with it. And so if I could communicate to the public that I don't agree with it, right? And so that's what sin does. Sin makes everything hard. That's what the church has to understand.

And that's what unbelievers have to understand. Right. When two people operate outside the way God attended to be, things get hard. Yes. And I don't think that God wants us to run away from the hard things. That's hard. Yes. That's hard.

You're making me go outside of my beliefs. Yes. And so if I have to try to figure out a way to do that, I have to do the hard thing. This is very uncomfortable. So is the basis of your potential, yes. Does it start with you discerning? what God wants? Yes.

Or is this always going to be a... That's the reason why I brought up... That's the reason why I just brought up, you know, people kind of hear what they want to hear because I want people to understand that first. I will really pray to the Lord. And when I thought about this, I thought about the potential of God saying,

maybe I'm calling you to do the hard thing because, as everybody know, if you ever saw my YouTube channel, I have hard conversations. And I will be going to their wedding, anticipating, not my family member, but the other side of the wedding party, not too happy with me,

wanting to have conversations, DM in me, right? It invites more conversations for me to give truth with grace and love, right? And so, you know, like I do think that in the same way God can use our no, I think God can also use our attendance when we're when we like plainly communicate that we don't agree with. I think God can use both. I think the problem is a wisdom problem.

I think that if people think that we agree with it, I think that's when it gets muddy. But I think that if it's a way, right, it's rare. I don't think that the average, I think you're right. I don't think the average person would say, yeah, put me on all your social media and tell people that you know, you know.

Right. But if they do, right? If they don't, I can't attend. If they say, I don't want you to do that. I can't attend. And I went in for, I was saying, this is not, I'm not putting this in your lap so you can say, oh, you don't, you, you don't have to go. I'm not, I'm not trying to manipulate you.

My salvation and my relationship with the Lord means a lot to me. Right. And so I think that, you know, if I got to be in, I think you got to be in a little bit as well. I think what I appreciate, again, is the amount of, like, love and wisdom and work and energy it takes to have like hard conversations around this subject. Yeah. You know, if it was a family member or even a child, like to just say yes or to just say no

without any conversation is easy. Yeah. But I think to kind of lean into the messiness of all the things and the complications and the weirdness and the awkwardness, I think is the way of love. Yeah. To just commit. Because we we don't like talking.

We don't like communicating. Like we like, you know, the easy piece. So I'm just saying your first part, I think should be over-emphasized. Yeah. That, like, talk to your people, process with your people. I even remember a conversation that I had with someone who's a lesbian and married to a woman. And she was saying how, like, she just hates how weird her Christian friends acted when she invited them to the wedding. Where they either ignored her or, like, didn't respond.

And she was like, stop being. and just tell me no. Like, we're straight. You know what I'm saying? Not literally. But like, we're good. Like, you ain't got to do all of that. Because it's real convenient to disappear.

Yeah. It's actually, you're not actually not being bold. I think God, like I said before, I think God wants you to honor him. And I think he wants you to honor people. I think he wants to honor him first. I think it's okay to even allow people to see the wrestle. Yes.

Right. So. Now you're talking my language. If I'm about to push back. I think it's okay for people to see, you know, says, I love you. I love you a lot. I care for you. I want to honor you.

You know, but I'm struggling. And this is why I'm struck for people to see the humanity. Because oftentimes people see the, they see the theology. But they don't necessarily see the human that like is communicating the theology. So like to see the wrestle between I want to honor God. and I want to honor you and just give me some time. Yeah. You know what's the pushback?

Because like I said, I embrace hard conversations. Of course you do. I was sitting here when you was talking. I was sitting here envisioning myself. First of all, I do have the luxury of I don't think anybody is ever going to invite me to their gay wedding. I just, I don't think that is ever going to be a thing. Yeah, Jackie, come on. So, like, my gay wedding, we're going to hand out gay girl, good God to all the guests.

That's just not a conversation I have to have. Now, depending on the path our children take, God willing, whatever affections or temptations they experience, they subject that under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, that is our prayer and our hope and what we're cultivating. But if ever they go down a path that we don't prefer, then I think I might have a different wrestle. That doesn't mean that my position will change, but I think my position gets weirder when it hits close to home. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. But I think where I am now, it's just not something that people, nobody's going to ask me. But I think I was thinking about if I did attend, how would I feel? I was just, I felt anxiety in my body and not like fear, but grief. Because I think some of the grief is informed by the fact that God delivered me from this. Yeah. Right? And so I think maybe maybe my previous context is a large part of why I wouldn't be able to go.

Yeah. Because I recognize the amount. I remember being a slave. Yeah. And so I think it would be, it just would be hard for me to sit here and see people celebrating slavery. Yeah. And I call it slavery because Romans does. Roman says like, if you are a person who is led by your sins and your past,

then you are a slave to who you obey, right? And so I am literally seeing slavery being celebrated and we're singing and we're dancing and we're making cheers and we're eating food and we're doing. Like this is a temple at this point. And so to me, my heart can't take. And I don't even want, I don't want people to think

that how I feel is how everybody should feel. I'm just saying I carry a particular grief When it comes to that, that wouldn't allow me to have peace. And that's good that you said that because I think, I think that what you're communicating is good because I hate when people say it's about your personal convictions. It is, but it isn't, right? I do think that we're all individuals and we all have individual stories

that make some things more sensitive than others, right? And so, for example, you know, I'm passionate about, you know, street ministry. But it's some things that I can't participate when it comes to street ministry because I, you know, like, like I just, I can't participate in some things because it just hits close to home.

Or like, I love to give the gospel to other religions. I couldn't attend the ceremony, you know what I mean, that celebrates false theology in that way, right? And so I agree with that. But I think that if the issue is confusing people, about what we believe, right?

We have to figure out how can we successfully communicate that to the world, that we don't agree with this. And I do think that I'm not, I don't want people to think that I'm saying, oh, yeah, like, I'm listening to you. I'm trying to find a Russell Morris article. You're all good. I don't think people should automatically say, you know, we should go or we should not go. I think that you should really pray about it and truly seek the Lord about it.

Well, at the same time, sticking to your conviction. Dang. I forgot I haven't paid my Christianity today. A little bill, so I can't see the article. Oh, okay, there we go. I did pay it. Okay, so I think one thing where loki hidden at is something Russell Moore kind of explores. Because Russell Moore did an article for Christianity today talking about the Alice to bed controversy and same-sex weddings and stuff like that. and he kind of made the point that maybe someone who doesn't attend a same-sex wedding could be considered like the weaker brother in First Corinthians, right? Because their conscience cannot handle this type of situation.

So I'm going to read it. He says I also, so Russell Moore is on the side of he does an officiate a same-sex weddings. He will not attend one, et cetera. He says, I also realize that my conscience here might be what the Bible would call the weaker one, Romans 14. I just know that weak or not, I can't violate it. I can understand why people would disagree with me and I can see the biblically reasonable case they would make, which is why I don't expect other people's consciences

to be bound by my scruples on a matter that's an inference from scripture rather than a direct and clear command. Does it make sense? Yeah, yeah. Like, I think framing it as, one, a conscience issue and therefore an issue that could change depending on if you're if you have a weaker conscience like I do when it comes to this

or a stronger conscience which I think you do because if we're talking about conscience is to say my conscience cannot handle being in that environment because of the world that I came from right your conscience can because of the perspective that you have about your love for your sister yeah yeah hypothetical sister yes and you know what I feel like the Lord just dropped this on my come on here I feel like the Lord just dropped this what did he say and I want people to to hear me when I say this. And this is not me making an excuse to try to defend the position

that I just laid out. I feel like the Lord, when I thought about this issue deeply, because the Alice Begg situation and other situations likened and I've had this question so many times on Q&As and stuff like that. So I thought about it deeply.

I think one of the reasons why I land on the side that I land on, I think God has kind of shown me right now is because I'm an evangelist. I think, my heart as an evangelist, I think in order to be an evangelist, you have to have hard conversations, you have to put yourself in difficult situations, even for those hard conversations to even happen. And I do think that if I came from the gay community, I probably would feel different, but I don't, right?

And I think God in a lot of ways has prepared me for that type of heat, right, for that type of smoke. Because I think I will get smoke from a lot of people. But I will honestly go to that wedding if they agree anticipating conversations and actually excited about. Okay. Right. And so I do think you have to be honest about. how God has made you, what God has brought you from,

and also what he's called you to. Right, right. But also at the same time, regardless of what he's called you to, how he's made you, what he's brought you from, and all of that, all of us making it clear to the world

what we believe and why we believe it. Right. And so if I ever attended, it wouldn't be a situation where it comes up on the news and people asking me a question, why did you attend? 10, they'll know where I stand and why I stand.

And some might have, some, some might say, um, Preston, you shouldn't have went. Okay. But you ain't going to be confused about what I believe. And you ain't going to be confused about, about like the conversation that I had when people, with people while I was there. That's what, that's what you're not going to be confused about. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's the bigger, the larger issue.

I think that's what makes it problematic is that it's confusing when we attend something that clearly goes against God. God's word. And so I do think that my heart as an evangelist and my heart for people in that way drives me to at least consider praying about should I go. That's interesting. And so I think that's kind of, you know, one of the reasons why I stand. Oh, man. That's good. I don't really know what else to say. Yeah. There's a lot to say. I just want to say this. And I actually want your opinion on it. Because I don't want to harp on this, but I do think that, was it, I think it was Ray Orlin's son that we watched when the Alice the Beck thing situation came

out. And what's his name? It's either Gavin or Dane. Gavin, we'll follow both of them because the Ordlein family are just great, golly men, women. But one of the things that he said was, of the people that critiqued or tried to cancel Alistair are not even tested in ministry and and they

haven't dedicated their life to even preaching the gospel in this capacity right? And so for what would you say to the people who would try to cancel everything that a person has done for years because of this one

fundamental and theological disagreement. I don't even think it's theological disagreement because theoretically, he has publicly came out and said, you know, that he agreed, that he disagrees with same-sex marriage.

He had a famous quote that was all over TikTok before this happened says, you know, we love, but we can't accept yet, you know, our gay friends and stuff like that. And so what would you say to people

who are just so quick to cancel a Christian in that way. And so much. Because I think we are just guarding ourselves from false teachers and false teachers that are coming up from among us. Right? So I think people just have a really keen eye to, can I still trust you? You know?

some of that is just because our trust has been affected by the amount of pastors that have fallen, the amount of pastors who at one time were theologically solid for 10, 15 years, and now they seem to be moving in a direction that is accommodating sin, particularly around sexual ethics. So I think we're just on guard from who we can trust. So I think that's a good thing. I think underneath it, though, I think especially those who live, live in more theologically dense spaces such as reformed theology like Presbyterians blah blah blah I think cats like that have to guard themselves from one lacking love

lacking long suffering and being hypercritical yeah I think if that's where you lean if you lean in that direction then you need to even be on guard against yourself yeah and how that could show up and how you treat other people yeah because I feel like when you look at even when Peter was out there, you know what I'm saying, when the Gentiles and them showed up, and he like, I ain't going to eat with the Gentiles. I'm going to eat with the Jews. I ain't been over here thinking that I'm being defiled and all the stuff.

And Paul came and rebuked him to his face. So it don't mean if a brother is tripping or doing something off, you don't rebuke them. But we don't stay there. Even Peter wasn't canceled. Yeah. He was challenged and then we moved on. Facts.

Facts. And I do think. And we're rebuking people. We don't even. know for God's sake. Yeah, and I do think that if you find yourself in camps or circles and the people that you find yourself around, they're more known for what they're against than what they're for. I think that you will have a deeper temptation just to cancel somebody the first time you

disagree with them because there's a lot of rhetoric of what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong. And I made a real about this recently. There's just people out there who are just, getting money, getting fame, getting attention of just complaining about what's wrong all day. And so the first time we see somebody that does something that kind of goes against what the first thing we do is, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong. And we're not even how to talk deeply about these things, to even wrestle through it, right? And so I do think what you just said about love is key.

This is the reason why the first thing that we should do is love. It was like, how can we, how can we have love Alice to beg in this situation? Well, I do have a, I do have a thought. What's the thought? Because if someone makes a public statement, I don't think you're, you're necessarily wrong to make a public rebuke or denounce, like, denounce that, right? I was getting there. It's the way we do. Yes, that's what I was just about to say.

Because my thing is, I would love for, for. I would have loved to seem for those who disagree with all that getting for them to get understanding. Nobody came and asked questions. Nobody came and said, okay, what do you mean by this? Can we talk about this? You know, it was just cancel, cancel, cancel. Well, some people ask questions. Well, well, I'm not saying some.

I'm just saying the overall what we saw, just people canceling them. some of his sermons was stripped off of certain, you know, platforms as if it wasn't theologically true. Now, if he came on and said, I don't think that same-sex marriage is sin. Right. You know, I disagree with Paul, you know. Then I can say, man, theological and foundationally, we don't believe the same thing. Right.

And you are showing signs of false teaching, right? but he didn't do that, right? He went a different way contrary to how you would have went. And so like that, I think that invites a conversation, not a cancellation. And so I don't think that we love people well

when we're just always so excited to talk about what we disagree with and we don't want to have real genuine conversations with the people that we disagree. I have a text. Paul says, chapter 5 verse 1, do not rebuke an older man, but encourage him as you would a father. Younger men as brothers,

older women as mothers, younger women as sisters in all purity. Surely he's not saying that just because a man is older or an elder is in a position of authority, that that means he can go without rebuke. But I think who they are and what they represent, like if someone is a father in the faith, a mother in the faith, even a sister or a brother in the faith, you challenge them in a way that honors who they are. Yeah, for sure. So if you are my sister, how do I show up and honor you? Absolutely.

Even as I correct you. If you're a father, how do I show, like, how do I correct you in a way that honors you? And I think that's what, what's not happening. Because how long has he been in ministry? I mean, longer than we've been alive. Longer than we've been alive. And also, he has taught theological truth for a very long time. Now in

2024, he comes out with one thing that we don't agree with. Not necessarily saying he agrees with sin, but the way we would attend something that is sinful, right? It's okay to disagree. I just think this cancel culture is so whack.

It's so whack. We just, like, Jesus wouldn't do that. Like, he won't, Jesus would not move the way y'all moving. Because he didn't. Right? He had people, he told, he told, He told Peter, get behind me, Satan, but he ain't cancel him.

He's still rock with it. As a matter of fact, he said, Peter, I'm going to build my church on, you know what I'm saying? And so like, if we want to say that Jesus canceled people, he canceled actual wolves. Yes. Right. The actual false teachers and the actual Pharisees who are saying things that weren't true and living lives that were deceptive. And so I just, I just think we have to be careful, let's be. we move in the direction of slander.

But I also want to affirm our commitment to truth because I feel like we have to balance it. Yeah, for sure. Because you have some people who are on the side who don't rebuke nothing. Yeah. Don't correct nothing. Don't challenge nothing.

Because they may not be at, like, whereas a person who's bold might actually just be in the direction to being self-righteous and harsh, a person who is quiet might actually just be a coward. Right. Right. And so we don't want to be either.

We just want to be faithful. What does faithfulness look like? Yeah, and it looks like, that's the question. It looks like loving God and loving people as yourself. Now, would you, what will be really interesting is that if you're invited to a same-sex wedding, knowing that I'm not going, even just that dynamic. Yeah, I think that if, I think that.

Because that, that'll be a part of like the conversation at the dinner party. Where's Jackie? Yeah, I think, I think, I think, uh, sipping a latte. Yeah. in front of Romans. As your leader. I'll be praying. Right, right.

I would be fasting for you. Right, right. That, like, the wedding would be at Missionfield. Can I talk, please? As you eat the meatballs. Okay. Talking to any Mormons that might have been. Oh, right.

They would be there. As your leader, I don't think that I, I don't see myself ever, ever trying to pressure you to be in a situation that might be emotionally damaging, right? So, like. Emotionally damaging. Not emotionally damaging, but like, you said that. It just goes against mine. But you said you will be vexed. I'd be grieved.

Grieved. That's what I mean. Like, I wouldn't want to put you in a situation that will grieve you in that way. Yes. Right. But at the same time, you know, honestly, that will be more of a temptation not to go if you, if you're not with me. You know what I'm saying? Only because, you know, this is like sexuality.

talking about sexuality through a biblical lens is your thing. And so I was just hypothetically- I would just prep you. Yeah. I was hypothetically using myself, but I don't even think that God will tell me to go. I was just honestly, because it's not my thing. I talked to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormas and Hebrew Israelites. Like, I don't even know how to like it.

We just did all of this. And you talk about something, yeah, I probably wouldn't even go. No, no, when I was using myself as I, like I was using myself. For other. It's a plot twist. Yeah, for other people. Yeah, yeah. Because I talked.

You were standing in proxy. Because I talked about evangelism, right? Yes. Right. But if I was well versed in like, like, sexuality. Sexuality, you know, I feel like I will be equipped. Because it's one thing, it's one thing to be ready. Come on here.

And it's another thing to be, and to be equipped and ready. Like, I'm ready for the small always. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I ain't afraid of no conversation. But I don't dibbling, dabbling stuff that I don't know what I'm talking about. stuff is changing. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a lot of stuff

be changing. Yes. And I wouldn't even know how to properly talk about certain things. And I don't think that because I didn't come from their community and because I don't engage with the community a lot, I don't think that I will be able to be as sensitive

and as thoughtful in my conversations. Well, I actually... But I feel like if you are and if you're not afraid to have those conversations, you should pray and ask the Lord, how should you go about it? I will say this. I think that actually, before we close,

because we're going along. I think that brings up a significant point because you began by saying you would go because you, like what would even motivate you to have the conversation about if you should go, is you praying and discerning God's will.

Absolutely. I think we often have to be reminded that a part of discerning God's will is having conversations and praying with other people. Yeah, that's good too. So, like, trying to discern God's will in isolation doesn't mean it won't have.

happen. It just means there's always the potential that it's actually not a sound. That's really good that you brought that up because I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't say that. But I definitely would not. I don't do, you know that I don't do anything without calling my leaders. You know what I'm saying? My mentor was Brian Dye or Eric Mason. I don't do anything. And so I definitely after I pray, I would, I would call men who I know know the Bible and who I know know the Lord. Because some people know the Bible, but they don't know God. I, I, I know men that know both, right? Let me share something real quick. So I called them first. I had a situation where I was invited to do this ministry engagement

with people who I disagree with maybe on all levels. And I was wrestling with if I go, I can present the gospel in a space where the gospel is not often presented. Or if I opt out, then I'm able to just not even make any public association with me in this ministry, right? And in me trying to discern what God wanted, I had to talk to people. Yeah.

And so I called about four people who are older than me, who have been in ministry for a long time, to process with me about the direction I should go. And I ended up coming to the conclusion that it would not be wise for me to attend this thing, right? Yeah. I think the same should apply to even stuff like weddings, which is you could have a conviction.

Like your conviction is landing on love and compassion. my conviction is landing on like nah I need to like maintain a public allegiance to Jesus and I can't go here because it'll violate my conscience right I think both of those lean in the direction of some type of biblical truth and so oftentimes you need some wise counsel to come in and say which part should I lean into you get what I'm saying like so I'm not especially if you're a person who's hyper compassionate your yes is going to be easy naturally yes if you're a person that's hyper judgmental you're no you're not you're not a person that's hyper judgmental you're not a person that's hyper judgmental you're not was going to be easy naturally. And so having a sounding board that can move you in a wise direction. What you just said just reminded me of this. And I want to keep beating the dead horse. I just want to re-emphasize this. Even the past,

even the wrestle that I, that I stated of why I would even consider or why I think God might say you can go, it's not me being new back. It's not me. Where did that come from? Because, you know, like people who don't have a backbone, it called me new back. Did you grow up hearing that?

Yeah. My grandma used to say, don't be a noodle back. You know what I'm saying? Have some backbone about yourself. Got it. Right. It's not me being like,

like me trying to be a people pleaser. Right. It is me trying to my best to honor the Lord. At the same time, keeping the door open in a relationship so that I can be a light to that person. Yes. Right.

And I think like that because I'm an evangelist, right? And so I'm always trying to be a light to the people in my life, people in the streets, whatever. You know what I'm saying? And so I'll say this, you know, like, make sure that you don't fall on two sides of the extreme, super critical and judgmental when you just mean. So it's easy for you to say no,

because that's not godly boldness, you just mean. Yes. Or just super, super cowardly and just like, you know what I mean? And like one of just pleased people. And so you feel the need to change your theological views just so this person will be mad at you. I think God has a problem with that as well. I do think that God is going to use us how he has uniquely made us.

And I think because God is a father and Christianity is a personal relationship with this God, he won't put us in situations where we're not ready to handle. And so I do think that we have to take that into consideration while at the same time bringing godly people into your life. But while it's canceling for them to say yes and no, you shouldn't attend it. Yeah, before we go, I think I would encourage everyone to know what the Bible says about sexuality, know what the Bible says about what marriage is, know what the Bible says about marriage being a reflection or symbol that represents the gospel, know what the Bible says about the conscience, know what the Bible says about sin, because I think having a solid theological

foundation actually anchors us in knowing the best decision or path to go, right? And so if anybody is listening like, shoot, I agree with Preston and I agree with Jackie. I don't know what to do. Get in your Bible, get in your word, know what you should believe before you then try to discern what you should do. Yeah. That's a good. That's a good word. Yeah. Yeah. Have a good biblical foundation. Pray. Keep wise, Godly people around you. And God will lead you. Yeah. And I'll link some resources in the show notes. Bye y'all. Peace. With the Paris is produced by the Paris with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride, Video recording and audio production by Kim Powell, Abishai Perez, and Xavier Fairley, edited by the team at Tread Lively, artwork by hop, and music by sweep. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.