Within Reason - #127 Bear Grylls - Retelling Jesus' Life as a Thriller

Episode Date: October 26, 2025

Bear Grylls is a British adventurer, writer, television presenter and former SAS trooper who is also a survival expert. Widely known for his television series Man vs. Wild, he was also appointed as The Scout Association’s youngest-ever Chief Scout of the United Kingdom and Overseas Territories at the age of 35. His new book, The Greatest Story Ever Told, is a retelling of the life of Jesus through the eyes of five Gospel characters: Mary the mother of Jesus, Thomas, Peter, John, and Mary Magdalene.TIMESTAMPS:0:00 - Retelling Christianity in the First Person12:36 - Faith and Doubt Come Together16:46 - Did Bear’s Research Cause Doubt or Faith?28:01 - Reconciling the Differences Between the Gospels39:50 - On Not Putting Words in Jesus’ Mouth48:59 - Where Alex’s Interest in the Gospels Began55:24 - Travelling Back to the Time of Jesus: Where Would You Go?

Bear grills, Sybil. Welcome to the show. I feel bad because it's taken about 50 minutes to get to this stage. Mainly because of me, not your team have been amazing. I've had all like the family, dogs and everyone coming to join. But I think we're basically relented, haven't we? Yeah, I think it's great. I like the fire.

You were teaching me about Birchwood and what I'll ever need to do if I'm ever in a survival situation and how to start a fire. Well, that's good. I kind of figured like we're outside with... We've got Sybil to come and join us. We better have a file lit and then it's all good. It's all very cozy, isn't it? It's all very cool.

I don't know. I kind of, I was saying to you before, I find if I have to do chat shows where it's like really in a studio, I find it all quite scary. Yeah. I find it quite intimidating. I get really nervous about them. But I do, I do have to do them. If you like promoting a show in the States, part of my work, so I kind of go and do it. But this sort of thing is, first of all, love you, love all you do.

I think you're a brilliant man with a great brain and also a great heart. And I look at you as like a truth seeker, which is wonderful, you know. So for me, this is kind of fun. So to be outside, nice have a fire of the dogs. It's kind of this feels a happier place, less, less scary place. It's gorgeous. And you're not promoting a TV show at the moment. You're promoting and discussing the greatest story ever told.

You've retold the story of Jesus's life through the sort of first-person perspective of various people. I want to jump into it, but why this book, why now? For some people, it might be a bit of a surprise. You know, you're the adventure guy and here's this book about Jesus. It's a little bit of a surprise for me as well, to be honest. But, you know, I don't know, faith has been part of my life for a long time, just kind of quietly. and helped me so much over the years, you know, through so much. And I don't know, I just had a really strong, weird feeling last year of, like, clear the decks.

Clear the decks and write this book. And I just realized, like, first of all, so few people have known the actual story of Christ. So few people have, like, read the Bible, you know, if you ask regular people. And yet the story, if it's true, is so life-changing and so beautiful. And I just thought nobody's ever done it, like told the actual story as a thriller. Short, accessible, easy to read, punchy, theologically accurate, but done as a, as like a sort of rip, you know, it's like a beautiful love story thriller. And I really just had that feeling of like clear the decks and write the book.

And I wrote it actually in a month in the jungle as with my son. We were filming another show either side of it. He kept thinking I was on drugs or something. he goes like you're just writing all day and all night but it's like wrote it fast but then it's really it's been the hardest but also the best thing i feel i've ever done and i've said this a few times out but i really would i would give up every other kind of work accolade in my in my life to have done this it's the thing actually i'm most proud of because it's changing lives and it's touching hearts all across the world every day now and it's only been out a few months and

I think out of everything I've done, this is the thing I've had the strongest, warmest response from. And like, even just this morning, like message after message after message when I sort of look at my phone or a team send me things of like people from all cultures, all faiths, or non-faiths, just saying mainly I had no idea. I had no idea of how incredible this story is. So really proud of it, you know. And I feel it's just beginning in a way.

Well, for those who don't know, what you've essentially done is taken the story of Jesus, which in the New Testament, we have our sort of four Gospels. We've got these four accounts of Jesus' life, and they're told in the third person, and quite sort of sparsely. You know, like I think, for example, of in the birth narrative, or just after the birth narratives, where Jesus is sort of, he goes missing. Like his family, his mother and father. suddenly noticed that he's not there and they search for him for three days and they go and find him at the temple.

And in the Gospels, it's sort of very much like, well, they noticed he was missing. They looked for three days. They found him in the temple and then he was teaching. Whereas what you've done is you've taken stories like this and you've told them from a first person perspective. So you start by assuming the personality of Mary, the mother of God. And you retell this story because, of course, if your child goes missing for three days, that's not something which is. It's easy to sort of fully depict in three short sentences. So you sort of try to expand upon that.

But the obvious question is, like, how do you go about doing this? How do you go about taking a story where, like you say, you've got to be incredibly careful to be accurate? Because you're telling, like, as you see it, the most important story that's ever been told. But you're kind of having to embellish it in a way. You're having to bring in emotions that aren't made explicit in the text. You're having to get inside of the mind of these characters and speak to these perspectives, which are not in the scripture. So how do you approach that while being careful to keep it accurate?

Yeah, it's a good question. It's like, first of all, you're right. You know, the New Testament, if you just look at it, the story, the way it's written is so sparse. Yeah. And every story of Jesus is like that example, you said, of him getting lost. you know even even through the crucifixion is like jesus was taken to the place of the skull and crucified yeah right done yeah you know that is that is it and i suppose what i've done is is expand that a little bit say actually what that means so you know so rather just saying you've taken the place of the skull

and crucified i will say you know the roman soldier grabbed the iron bolt knelt on yeshua's you know arm drove it through and you know the words mumbled from his mouth of father forgive them forgive them they don't know what they're doing you know so just try and put context kind of to it but at the same time be absolutely theoretically kind of accurate and you know the first thing we did was just take a timeline of like okay here we go because you got four accounts and as you know the the the gospels differ as part of the sort of beauty of the authenticity of it is it like they differ you know so we we first of all had to take the timeline and then pull out the kind of the actual one thing i didn't change a single word of it's the words of that jesus spoke so that was like when i had

that kind of feeling of clear the decks and write this book the next feeling i had was like but do not add a single comma to his to actually the words that jesus speak so i use different translations different versions for different you know encounters different scenes but i don't change a single word that he says. What we are doing is setting the scene for each of those kind of times he is speaking. So that was part of the challenge, but, you know, I kind of feel, I feel we've done it okay. We did a lot of work on it afterwards. I mean, I worked with a lot of theologians for this. So, you know, I do kind of feel, I actually feel this is no longer my book, actually. I really, it's a genuine sort of feeling of like, it's feel it's outgrown me. It has a life of its own now,

but I'm really proud of the help I got. Andrew Ollerton was incredible, Dr. Andrew Ollerton, who's this super well-renowned theologian. I worked a lot with the Come and See Foundation in the States who are behind things like the Chosen, the TV series. And they had a whole team of theologians that really kind of, we had some pretty intense Zoom calls of, you know, like that's, you can't conjecture that.

You've got to rethink that. And it's like, so we've really worked hard for that part. And that's why really they're the kind of being in many ways the actual heroes of all of this. Well, the Chosen will be a comparison that surely comes up a lot here because, I mean, the Chosen, this TV show that serializes the life of Jesus, they have no choice but to put words in the mouth of Jesus. Well, they have to go further because they're doing so much more.

So they do create dialogue for Chosen. And actually, I think they, you know, by their own admission, it's one of the things they get, you know, criticism for. I think everything's arguable either way. I think they see it and I see it with the Chosen as well. They just do a brilliant, brilliant job of pointing people towards the light and towards the nature and the character of Jesus. But with this book, I really wanted to keep it really tight.

Yes. You know, so the only thing we're going to contextualize is this situation of Jesus, whether it's Jesus meeting, this lady, this Samaritan lady at the well. the first time he reveals to anyone on earth his actual divinity you know we're just gonna we're gonna set the scene for it and then let it play out yeah and one of the choices that you make there

because of course you tell the story through the first person perspective you start with Mary and then it's Thomas next and then Simon yeah John yeah you got a great you got a good you got a good brain I said this and this start well done yeah that's just memory but uh that second part

it's Thomas, right? It's through the eyes of Thomas that you see Jesus talking to the Samaritan lady at the well. And I suppose you have to make some interpretive choices here in that, like, in the gospel account, Jesus is at the well, and he's speaking to the Samaritan lady, and then the disciples come and join him. But you've sort of taken Thomas and you've placed him there, like a viewer. Well, I've placed him as an observer. So it doesn't mess with the scene. It doesn't mess up the dynamic, because it's a very intimate moment, really. You know, so things like that, you had to just require some thought and some planning and how to do it.

But I felt that was kind of a nice way of doing it because it's not messing with the scene or altering the scene. But it just gives a reason for him observing it. But I like Thomas in this. I think the book starts off very innocent with Mary. Yeah. You know, this young teenager, like, you know, it's just being told you're going to give birth the son of the almighty. This is a, this is, you know, I know we get so used to it. like with kids nativity plays and stuff but it's a pretty shocking revelation and also it's

pretty shocking to if god's going to come to earth to come out of wedlock you know born out of wedlock you know to somebody is you know of such no social standing and such poverty and so it is it's very starts very innocent and as you say it's kind of like you know even losing jesus as that 12 year old it's like the panic of all of that but then i want to go and harder with Thomas of like, it's going to take more than a miracle with some wine to change this hard. Yeah. Because it's, I kind of feel like taking these five different perspectives in the book, it becomes all of our stories.

Because all of us at times are the skeptic. All of us are the doubter. All of us are the betrayer. All of us are the arrogant. All of us are the nervous and scared. So I kind of wanted it to have all of these perspectives because that is, that is life. And it was also the reality of their experiences. Though, you know, the people that surrounded Jesus were all of those things.

The one thing they weren't is, is very together or intellectual or brilliant. You know, they were just regular young people. I mean, it's the other thing people forget. The average age of the disciples, 15 to 25. You know, it's really shocking that for me. It was like, hold on, I'm so used to big paintings of Peter with a big beard, sat on a rock, you know. but they were they were kind of like wow what is going on yeah you know and i kind of relate to that that's one of the reasons that the chosen is is so celebrated i think what it does well is that

so many pieces of jesus media are about jesus whereas this is really about the disciples it's the chosen it's the chosen followers of jesus and you are sort of going along with them encountering this character of jesus which is what this approach does as well it puts you in that first person perspective but you've you've said that Thomas you want to sort of represent different sides of everyone's personalities and Thomas is the is the doubter I heard you say on a different interview that sort of faith and doubt are two sides of the same coin and of course any Christian believer will go through periods of strength and faith and weakness in faith and I suppose right now especially with the book and the feedback you're probably feeling pretty

pretty good about Christianity and the position in the world but I wonder if you can talk us through don't assume whether that's true and well I don't think it is true where you're at I actually I actually have many doubts I really do have many moments of real struggle I don't think it'd be right to say like I'm I'm like super confident in my faith I think I'm the shaky part of this you know I really am and I struggle with many things and I've just learned that that is okay You know, so when I say faith and doubt, two sides are the same coin, it's not like sort of 90-10, you know, faith and a little bit of doubt because, you know, I think it's a myth that you find a faith and suddenly, like, it's all comes together. I think for me, finding a faith was like a, like that pilot light, boom, that happened, that light went on. And like, I was a teenager, it was like, I knew it, but nothing dramatic happened.

I just, but there was a light there. And that's never gone out. But like a gas flame, sometimes it goes, you have moments where like I know it's like I've just experienced this is incredible and the moments where it's like total madness and I think actually this last year I've had really challenging moments of like can it really be true and you know it's where community and sort of good people around you make such a difference and I feel like I feel my brain is really limited I really do I feel like I wish I had a better brain I wish I had a better memory memory, better understanding of so much of the theology. It's actually why this book has helped me as well.

And I listen to the audio of that book all the time still, even though I've written it, you know, because it's like the simple stuff is the important stuff. And I think sometimes with theology we get so buried in the semantics and the weeds and the religion that even in our own hearts, we lose sight of what it was about. I mean, you know, Jesus said it's so simply. He said, I've just come to seek and save the lost. And it's like, I'm proud to have been amongst the lost. And I don't want to complicate. I don't want to sort of over-religifies sort of the job, you know. I'm not asking to be made a theology, Don. Yeah. You know, I'm just really happy to start the day on my knees

and to receive help. And I try never to complicate. it beyond that. So I wouldn't want people to get the impression or the feeling like, you know, I'm riding high on faith. Because to be honest, that is a daily thing. The daily struggles are real. But through it all, I kind of hold on to a few promises,

even when I'm not really feeling it. And I kind of still somewhere in the pit of my heart and soul. I know it's, I know I'm loved, and I know there is a presence out there and it's good and it's for us, for all of us. But beyond that, I really, I really probably struggle. And I don't mind that. I've learned that that's just part of life.

And I suppose part of the decision. Does that make sense? Of course. And I think putting that in the story in the voice of Thomas, who is traditionally thought of as the skeptic because of that episode at the end of Jesus' life, although even in Thomas' life, I think there's a period where

Jesus wants to go and visit someone who's died and the disciples say, you know, what's the point? You know, this person's dead and it's Thomas who stands up and says, no, we should go with him. I think Thomas is sometimes a bit maligned as being fully characterized as doubting. But that story definitely captures that.

But I'm really interested in hearing you say that how even listening to the book that you wrote because of the fact that it takes you back to what's important, it can be quite sort of comforting remembering that that's what it's all about. But presumably in the process of putting that together, because you've got to make these choices and you've got to speak to theologians and you've got to look at this chronology and, you know, how does it go together? Like John's Gospel

has Jesus flipping the tables at the temple near the beginning and the synoptic Gospels have it near the end and you've got to sort of work at all. And I wonder if even if the result is a reminder of, you know, the beautiful simplicity of the core story, the process of writing it, Was that a process of finding these things and going, gosh, I don't know about this and experiencing doubt in that process? Or was the process a more sort of invigorating process for your faith? I think, I don't know, I think sort of putting context to the story brought it alive more and more as I did it.

Right. Of like, you know, taking it out of, as you say, the sparse simplicity of just how it's written in the New Testament. To be honest, that was always my experience. You know, I'd always try and, as part of my daily life, read a little bit from the good book, you know, try and do it every day. And but it could be hard, you know, and I think once you actually get into the stories, and also we become so familiar with the stories, that's the other danger. And that's why I wanted, that's why Thomas, for example, I don't call him Thomas, he's town, yeah, they're all the local Aramaic names because I think otherwise you go, oh, Thomas, this guy is going to be full of doubt. Well, next year, as you say, it was probably incredible.

Had a few moments of doubt that becomes his trademark signature for the rest of human, you know, mankind. So I wanted people to arrive like I was arriving at this, totally fresh of like no expectation. And what's been so interesting, I've had so many notes from like top theologians around the world. And when I see it coming in, I'm always like, oh God, what's it going to say? It's going to be picking holes in this. Because like anything, nothing's going to be perfect, you know. But actually time and time again, it's like going, I read this. And I thought, huh, that's interesting.

And I find myself referring back to the accounts and realized I hadn't actually noticed that. It's actually right. You know, it's like. And I don't know. There were loads of little moments like that. And that was my journey of discovery as well. Of, you know, even little things. Like we always think the first people that saw Jesus were the wise men.

You know, because, of course, the wise men would come before the rough shepherds and dirty clothes and bad languories, the stinking of horse manure. You know, of course the king was come. But as you know, you know, the first people to see the baby Christ were the outcast, the people who weren't even at a pass every time allowed into the town because they were considered unclean. So they were kept outside the city limits always. But the star leaves these rough speaking rough, you know, shepherds in to see the baby. And it's only really, they think like two or three years later that these mystics, again, not, you know, they're called wise kings, but actually they were religiously, I think, sort of Eastern mystics who had been following this, the alignment of the stars with this conviction that the saviors to be born in the city of David. And they come and they provide what eventually is financial support for the years that they were about to live as refugees when they were given out of Beckley.

That was really interesting because you talk about sort of them being gifted this gold, this sort of golden ornament and this frankincense and these gifts aren't really reflected on. But yeah, it made sense to think, well, if this proceeds a flight to Egypt, you know, this could be what they use to get through. Well, I think part of it. I mean, again, it's conjecture, isn't it? know, who knows, you know. But it makes sense. So, like, maybe the gold was just a gave enough to last those years of living as nomads and refugees in the Egyptian desert, you know. But then again,

that would have been only the gold, you know. I read a thing on this, yeah, that I can't remember what the frankincense was full. But certainly the Murr, I think, was the, was a burial one, you know. So that was, is that right? I think it's right. Frankersense was something on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, there's so many elements like this that we skip over that it's like, it's too for me it's like too brilliant right to just have this story to have fallen in these places you know and that's the part for me is reassuring and back to your times when you're saying of doubt you know one of the ways i deal with my times of doubt is to look back of like actually into and that's why this book has helped me so much from my own journey of faith but i almost feel it's that phrase

the theology of embarrassment. Have you heard of this? I don't think so. It's that if you are crafting a true story, there's some embarrassing elements to the story. Oh, right, yeah, yeah. Or criteria, I think maybe you call it criteria of embarrassment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

That just don't, you wouldn't do. You wouldn't make up. You know, the child of wedlock, these sort of, you know, you wouldn't write of yourself like portraying Jesus three times or appearing first to women in the resurrection.

and this whole list of these sort of things that's, and it's those elements that always kind of, I find reassuring. But again, I come from a very simple brain, you know, I really do. But I think it's brilliantly put together, and I, some things jumped out at me. You know, I've been trying to study the New Testament for years now. And so it was really interesting. I can imagine why you're getting emails from people saying this is really weird. Like, people might read, for example, that, you know, you say that there are five wise men, five magi.

Most people think that there were three. Well, where's that come from? But the gospels don't say that. Exactly. It's little things like that. But. Which also, I think, allow people. I really think that when you go and watch that nativity scene at this school or whatever, and you see, and, oh, there is a great lobster in the manger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there are the three wise men. But if you see five of them come in, it just sort of. stopped you for a second. And even though you know that those are the major eye, you think, oh gosh, there are five of them. Yeah, why are they five? Who are they?

And it makes you sort of see it with fresh eyes, as it was. Well, it's fresh eyes that is how I encounter this, and it's fresh eyes for people that I want. And that's why I think people are responding to this, because if you arrive with the preconception of like, this is a book about this, and this is what I know. It's like, you know, I want people to sell from ground zero.

It was where I started, and it's like, I think the other factor is we've had 2,000 years of the story been ruined. I really feel that. I feel there's 2,000 years of an awful lot of religion has ruined it, you know, dress it up in sort of, a lot of sort of, you know, corrupt churches and corrupt sex and corrupt sort of, you know, religions. And I don't know, it's just like we've done a really good job as humankind of, you know, spoiling a really beautiful story if it's true. And I kind of feel like in my own life as well, it's my own journey of faith was that as well. I found, I found, I had a really beautiful natural faith as a kid, you know, whereas like, I know that it's just there's a connection, you know, it was no more than that. Yeah, right. And then I went to school and suddenly like everyone was

speaking in Latin and white robes, it was all very full. You know, I had a mini version of what humans are experienced 2,000 years of thinking this may be this is what God is, telling me not to do this, you know, speak in Latin, behave yourself and shut up. You know, so for me it's been a lifetime of unravelling that to find actually the, that's the bathwater, dirty, rubby, was probably going to make you sick. But the baby, isn't they're saying, if you can take them out of the bathwater, it's amazing. And I want people to experience that baby, the real story. of how it really was to have walked that land with this man.

I wanted people to find that afresh. There's something, I mean, finding it afresh implies that, you know, I can pick up this book, and I've never heard this story before, and I'm discovering this. But also, if you are familiar with the New Testament, you'll pick this up, and hopefully it'll be new. Like, if somebody came to you and said, you know, I've heard about this Jesus guy,

but I've never really understood the story before, Would you say to them, like, this book that I've written will take you through that story, or would you say to them, tell you what, go and read the four Gospels, then come back and read this as a kind of commentary or retelling? Would this be a starting point for people? Because I think it is a starting point. But the irony is, it's also like at whatever level you're at, it works. And I think, ultimately, you're never going to improve on the Bible.

The Bible is always going to be number one, you know, because you can't improve on, you know. But I think it's stepping stones. It's hard for people to go to cold to boiling in one step sometimes. And I've had this experience with one of my best friends, who's a brilliant brain, like you, an Oxford guy, you know, a strong sort of atheist guy. And he, I remember saying to him years ago, I said you know that you should just read the full gospel.

He goes, no, you're right, I've got to just, I've just got to do that. Because I actually haven't studied it. I've just got, I'm going to do it. kind of didn't, or then dipped in and then got a bit bored. Because as you say, it's sparse. Yeah. To me, to when you, when you, I think when you have faith, it's like the scales come off a little bit and you see those, the sparsity as a beauty. Yes. And the honey is there. But it's hard to just say, read it. So I kind of wanted to take people on a bit of a journey with that. And that journey takes many forms and that will play, will play a part. Those decisions that you made, like,

some of them are seemingly a little bit arbitrary like like the five magi not four not six like did you just sort of pluck that out of out of thin air did you just have to go with something i want to trip people up on what is what they think of as is real yeah when actually it's just convention right okay you know i want to people to go hold on and and most people would just skip over that but i quite like it when i get theologians going oh i kind of was interested in that mary always thought she rode on a donkey to bethlehem but actually there's nothing about that the donkey was was jesus rode on a donkey into jerusalem for that final week as a symbol of servitude you know i kind of like tripping people up on on people things people think

as real to help them find out actually what is maybe real and along the way there's you know because again i think that's been my journey of like i just you get so used to hearing people talk at you from a church and that goes in here but it doesn't go in here but it doesn't go in So sometimes it's like you need to disconnect to reconnect. Yeah. And that chronology that you were talking about before, when you sat down to put this together, you have to make some probably relatively tough choices because they're quite thematically relevant. Like if Jesus flips the tables near the end of his life, that's maybe part of the reason why he's arrested and crucified.

Because at the beginning of his life, then it's not. Did you just sort of sit down in the jungle and work it out for yourself? Did you control theologians? How did you put that together? Carefully with theologians. And he does flip the table at the end. At the end as well. But he also does at the beginning.

Yeah, because that's the doing it twice is the solution, right? Which was the solution. And sometimes that sort of thing works because that's accurate. You know, one gospel says it's done the beginning and on a separate occasion. And then there was another, that epic sort of final week is important to get, you know, that chronology absolutely right. But exactly when he crossed from Galilee to. feed the 5,000 and to free the demon-possessed man in here and the, you know, that journey

we kind of, you know, you just got to kind of eventually commit to one way, haven't you? And that's why there were these epic Zoom calls with a lot of theologians where eventually go, let's do it like that. But it's interesting. Some of the discussions were like things like, but hold on, Jesus didn't have brothers and sisters. The Catholics will really fervently believe he didn't have brothers and sisters. And it's like, and I'd written it. it in this early bit of brothers and sisters, but of course, and the old, the Aramaic translation of brothers and sisters actually implies a wider family of cousins. And it was like, let's not even trip people up on it. I don't want to like put that line in that Jesus about Jesus' brothers

and sisters and then lose Catholics who go, well, because I don't agree with that, I'm going to discard the rest of the book. Yeah. You know, those are called stumbling blocks for people. So just remove it. You know, take that bit out. Don't be a stumbling block. Let's get people to the the reels meat rather than getting sort of hung up because the herbs were arguing about the herbs in this meal, you know. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about the sort of brothers controversy. So just take it, we just took that line out and we did that a lot on things. I was going to ask, are there other bits that you just sort of removed? Yes, lots of things in the first draft, it's like actually that's going to be tricky for people of different, of different

face and stuff, but it doesn't add anything to the story. Right. So let's just keep it flowing. Can you think of an example? Not to make me to have a position on it, but the kind of debate that you thought wasn't worth having in the book. I think that was a key one. Right, the brothers.

Yeah. Yeah, because of course, it's sort of, it's the question of the perpetual virginity of Mary, right? If Jesus has brothers, then Mary's had other children, and if he doesn't, then maybe she didn't. I can see why that's, at least in a project like this, worth just. sort of left untouched perhaps. Yeah, because it doesn't, don't be a stumbling block.

You know, all I want for this is to be a bridge for people, a gate for people. It's what it's proving. That's why I get these people of so many cultures and faiths writing about this. It's like, it's an accessible way of finding out this love story. And I don't want to be a

stumbling block. It's why we've changed the names. It's why we've gone back to the old names and the old places. So you arrive at it fresh. Yeah. You spoke on another podcast about this analogy that you draw only you mentioned how people have sort of messed up the story and

gotten it wrong over the past few thousand years and I think it's pretty easy to point to examples of where people have gone astray and you've compared this in the past to Elvis Presley well first of all we're all part of that story of messing it up so I'm not sat here going religious mess it up you've messed up

you've messed it up you've messed it up you know is the truth I've messed it up because none of us tell the story of Christ very well. So my Elvis thing was like most people love Elvis but we think the Elvis impersonator is

a little bit weird. Which is sort of probably a fair description. And I feel that a little bit about faith. If you actually get to the meat of this of the story of Christ what his nature, which was radical and free and

laughter and, you know, like the The Pharisees, the main accusation for those three years of his ministry against him is that he was a glutton and a drunkard, at which point Jesus would have roared with laughter and said, you know, on one hand you're saying to my cousin, John, you're like this, and there's me, you're saying, you know, it's not how we imagine Jesus. Right, exactly. So I feel like the church has, and we are part of messing that up. Yes.

Because we've formalized and we've put it in religion, we've made it all very kind of like, our human nature we'd like to put things in a box but love doesn't live in a box so we're always going to kind of mess it up I am part of that even to the extent I mean I give you an example like the other day my eldest son his girlfriend who's wonderful she goes just tell me about tell me about your faith tell me about the faith stuff she was reading that she saw the book and I kind of stumble through some really and after about three minutes I thought I could see Jesse look at me going

oh you're making absolutely no sense and it's like I've explained this so badly and um it's like trying to describe a really sort of I don't know trying to like describe swimming to somebody who's never seen water you jump in this thing and this all around it keeps you up can feel pretty scary feels like wet and like crazy but then like you know yeah and she was so sweet looked at me like you're really making no sense And I thought, thank God, love shines and spreads without, thank goodness that's not all dependent on us,

because I don't do a very good job of that. So I include myself in the messing up of the story over 2,000 years. We've all been part of that. It's amazing to you say that because of the way the book turns out. So I guess, you know, you can think about it a bit more and consult people if you're having issues. But that makes me think, I understand when someone, if someone just comes to you and says, tell me about this faith thing. Tell me about this Christianity thing.

It's like, whoa, where do I even begin? You must have had that feeling right in the book. Did you write this in order? Did you just sort of sit down? It was a terrifying thing. It was a terrifying thing. But I kind of really just felt compelled to try and start. And I knew where I was going to start, which was picking up the phone to Andrew,

who's just become over the years a brilliant, brilliant friend. And it's probably the best theological mind that I know. And there's really sort of calm and measured and just brilliant. brilliant and just said how would we do this you know where would you take that chronology for example what i knew i wanted to do was to get the spirit to get like yeah right you know to strip away to show why was he called a glutton and a drunkard why why would why did everyday people just want to be with him why would people fight to get through the crowd just to touch his cloak why did the religious elite fear him so much what was it about this guy that is so the opposite of what

I was brought up thinking Jesus was about what why you know that's what I wanted to get to and then it was just assembling a team to help kind of get get accurate because ultimately a kind of really cared about that so much so that even when things were right I actually we pulled the whole first print run of like there were just few things I just seen after I thought hold on that's not that's not quite right oh really you know it's like I just felt this has got to be right yeah and it's why now I do stand actually with, you know, tentative confidence behind it, not total confidence because it's sort of human and it's going to have some few flaws. But actually with a good degree of confidence, that's why actually now when I see these emails come through

from the professors, I'm now, my confidence has grown with it. Yeah. It's a 99.9% of the time it's like, I was expecting it to have holes, but actually good job. And that's down to a good team on it. So this was on its print run and it was like ready to go and you sort of saw there were like 50,000 copies ready to go. And you pulled it? I paid to pull it yeah. And was it like

something in particular or was it just like a vibe thing? It was like three or four things and it was just like I knew we'd, it's just got to be right. I can't you know, it's like a feeling isn't it? And I ended up pulling it and end up at the end up at the end of it the editor said we work then for a month, read it, he said we're good

to go. He said, do you know how many changes you've done since you told me it was as good as we're never going to get three months ago? He said, you've done 1,200 changes. You know, so it's like, you know, I almost know every page, every kind of paragraph on this book. I bet. But not out of anything, but apart from like, it's brought me closer and closer to the nature of Jesus that I first kind of fell in love with and is like being such a beautiful part of my life. And I need it. I really find it like, for me, it's like bread and butter and honey every day that this story. You don't start with Mary. I mean, you do, but there's this very brief prologue where you sort of flash forward to the road to Emmaus. And you've got these

two disciples walking along the road. The first thing I wrote for this book was that page. I was wondering if you wrote that, because a lot of authors will finish a book and then they'll go back and they'll, you know, figure out how to open it. But why was... It was the first thing I wrote, I don't know, I just really... How was that the place to start? Because it was a revelation of me of like, I wonder what point the penny dropped with them all.

Those people spent all this time with Jesus. When do you think the penny dropped? Because you think, like, this divinity was shown all the time. And yet, I kind of find it reassuring that as disciples, they're regular people and, like, you probably wake up the next day and you're kind of already questioning yourself. Yeah.

Go, hold on, but that that guy who was frothing and foaming at the mouth and then was like, all that arm that was here is like, hold on, maybe, you know. Yeah. And I don't know, I just love that scene of like, even at the end when they were, when he told them.

So, I mean, he tells them once, gently. He tells them twice, you know, about what's going to happen to, I will be. And eventually he's sitting in the man and he's going, I will be tortured. I will be crucified. and I will rise again on the third day there's like no no no metaphors

you know he's like he's spoken stories and he's all the time but it's like this is clear now listen to me you know boom boom boom and even then like they're not anticipating it they just really think it's the end and I just love that bit of like Jesus being playful

I mean I remember before writing this book reading a like 300 page book on just a playful nature of Jesus and something kind of like I'd never known thought about, but so playful all the time. And I like that idea of him toying with them as he reveals on that road, saying,

tell me what's been happened? Happening. And they go, you idiot, what do you mean? Tell you what? You must be the only person in the world that doesn't know what's happened the last few days. And that part's actually in the gospel, isn't it? Where they say, you must be the only guy who's not heard. And I like that. And he's like that, let me, let me,

you know, and he starts. And then they go, it's that wonderful line of, uh, did not our heart burn within us, because that's the start. For me, that was always a place to start the story. Like now I want you to go, why, why? Yeah. Why does this make your heart burn within you? And it's the ultimate question of life, really.

Yeah. I think it's an important decision that you make to not change the words of Jesus. But inevitably, you have to do some things with Jesus. So, for example, when you're talking about his upbringing with John the Baptist, artist, his cousin. And at one point, for example, you describe, you know, John as being a bit sort of boisterous and telling jokes, and Jesus as being the more sort of quiet one. So you do have to make some decisions. I suppose you didn't have to, but you chose to make some decisions of sort of giving Jesus, like, I guess like personality traits, especially in his younger

life that, that again, was that like, theological informed? Was that a council of theologians on Zoom? Or was that you just thinking, this is what I imagine about in life. I think that's okay. I felt, you know, it's a line. It's just beginning to introduce this nature of Jesus, because actually you don't get to meet the guy until you're a third of the way through, really. You know, the meat of it happens there. Yeah, yeah. So we're just pointing towards his nature and his character in a way. But when it comes to actually the first words and the last words, they've got to be absolutely right. I didn't want to change a single one of those. Yeah. And then did you otherwise write the book in order? Like you, like, as in did you just sit down and start with Mary and then just

Yeah. And did you decide before you started writing it, these are the viewpoints? Or did you sort of write up to the wedding at Cana and then go, let's go for, how about Thomas now? And then you go, let's go for, let's go for time. Again, I did that with Andrew and with Craig and with another of the theologians. We kind of thought, we should be really contrasting, interesting perspectives to get it from. Yeah. That covers all of humanity, basically.

So that's why you want the innocent to the skeptic, to the arrogant, to the impulsive. to the broken, to the clinical, because that's all of us. Everyone's going to be one of those. Were the perspectives that didn't, were there like names, were you like,

maybe we could do it from this person's perspective that didn't make it, or was it sort of those five? I feel we covered it really well. It was really, it feels beautiful ending with Mary Magdalene as a sort of broken teenager,

find it, and then encountering Jesus and just like, she's so all in and so human with it as well and very tender sort of way to I feel sort of wraps up the quite sort of male middle bit of it. And it's, I don't know, yeah, Jesus is always affirming women.

That was the, it felt right, top and tailing the book with it at that. Yeah, I had a, I had a podcast with a scholar called Helen Bond, who wrote a book called Women Remembered, which is this sort of rediscovery of the women. Because, I mean, two of the characters that you, that you speak from the perspective of are women. and there's this extraordinary thing in the Gospels where you can read all the way through the narrative and then right at the end when Jesus is being crucified

it says, oh and by the way there were these women at the cross oh and by the way they had been following Jesus and funding his ministry like from their own pocket like this whole time when you didn't get a mention until now and so I agree that it's a worthwhile pursuit and also like you've got Mary Maglin

and then Mary the mother of Jesus us at the foot of the cross. Yes. You know, where's everyone else? Yeah. The answer is, they fled. Fled in terror, which is kind of, you know, kind of reflective of, of all of us, really, you know.

Yeah. And I don't know, there's so many bits I look. First of all, I'm really touched that you know, you know it so well and you've, you've, you've read it so much. I think you just got a great seeking heart. It's amazing. But there's certain parts of the book that. really afterwards, really have stayed with me.

And I thought it was interesting, it might be interesting for you, but one was the first time Jesus starts to do anything supernatural, which I don't know if you've ever thought about this. But it's like, where are these 17 years, you know, between, you know, temple getting lost, day 12, and starting this ministry? And I don't know, I just get a feeling. and again I don't know if this would be right but it kind of feels like natural and right

it's like it's almost like he knew as soon as he started to do something supernatural the clock ticks yeah because that's what happens and Mary comes to him and Mary is the one and they're at this wedding they're having fun and they're like Jesus is letting his hair down

he's having fun with his friends and it's his mother like I know I really related to this is like I don't know maybe with your mother or like you know some mother who's tugging his seat and go I need to talk to you It's like, oh, I'm having fun, I'm having fun.

Not now. It's like, but there's a problem. It's not my, and he says it's not my problem. Yeah. It's like really interesting. Yeah, that is. Because everything for the rest of his life is his problem. Yeah.

He's in everybody's element of all their life. Yeah. In a beautiful way, healing, touching, affirming, correcting, guiding, helping loving. But then he goes, this isn't my, it's like, he knows. It's almost feels like he knows that once I begin, the clock ticking. And it, but yet on the other side, it's only a mother that, that knows like when time to fly

try to fly spread the wings time to fly and eventually she keeps tugging and then what I like is that Jesus doesn't even respond then to her you know what she does she just tells the service she knows she's got him she just says do whatever he says and it's like boom

the journey beginning and for me it's like this is how I try and live my life like that's become a real thing for me in my faith when I have my struggles and when I have my doubts I go back to that of like just just do whatever he says and helps me yeah I'd not thought about that the prospect of somebody coming and of course you know it's Jesus's mum and this is at the beginning and it seems like a relatively trivial thing you know we've run out of wine yeah but the idea of someone coming for Jesus to Jesus for help and him going like it's none of my business yeah and yet you're right as soon as he makes that

decision say okay fine then everything then he's not saying that to anybody anymore now like you say the clock is ticking i hadn't thought of that as like the sort of watershed moment because now now people are say hold on yeah yeah right and also it was such an outrageous thing as well it wasn't like i mean i can't was it 60 gallons or 600 gallons it was a lot it's like 200 pictures of this stuff it wasn't like just like a couple of glasses yeah and it's like if we're going to start we're going to this is a message which is the message of the new testament it's a message of the great story is a message of extravagant love. Yeah.

Like we're going to start. We're not going to just give you a thimble full of wine. Yeah. Here we go. And then I like Thomas going, hold on. How did he do this? Yeah, because that's the moment you switch over to Thomas, right? And then Thomas is sort of blown away.

But then again, it's like sort of a few chapters later. You've got Thomas being like, okay, that was pretty weird, but it's not quite enough. Like, surely I've got to see a little bit more. And then. Which he does. But then at the end of his, it's not the miracle. He goes, it wasn't the miracles that changed my heart. It was his love for people, for love for us.

You know, it's like the miracles he knows. The head part says it's undeniable. I've seen the guy walk on water. I can't. But it's like it was his love that really changed me. Well, the most famous story of Thomas in the Gospels is him sort of demanding to see the wounds of Christ. And Jesus says something really interesting to him, which is he sort of appears to him and says, am Thomas, you know, I touch my wounds. And he says, you believe because you've seen

blessed of those who believe without seeing. But I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but if you look at Christian art, it's always Thomas touching the wounds of Jesus. But the gospel never actually says that Thomas touches the wounds. It just says that Thomas like demands to see the wounds. And when Jesus shows up and says, here I am, Thomas drops to his knees, you know, and he says, my Lord and my God. And there's one reading of the story as if to say, Thomas had thought that what he wanted was like empirical evidence and to see the miracle, but when actually confronted with the person of Jesus, he realizes that that's not what it's about. I quite like that reading of John's God's awful. And also like, like no, no, no, you're good,

you're good. Yeah. Yeah. But also, I remember that when I first understood that, it used to challenge my faith a bit like. So I used to think, well, hold on, maybe Jesus could be a ghost. He actually didn't feel the blood and the wounds. Yeah, right. You know, it's like, maybe he's a ghost. But then the next line, he sits and breaks bread and he's fishing. Yeah. You know, we're just kind of, and then I found out reassuring. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

My life is a whole, listen, my faith stumbled. You've just seen, you basically summed up my, you know, that's how my faith goes. And I was a dad and then quite reassuring. And then back to my knees to, to listen to Mary to say, do whatever he says. You've just witnessed it. Yeah. That's a great, I've not thought of the moral of the story of the wedding at Cana in that way. They're sort of just, do what he says.

Tell me about you. Tell me, tell me, where do you, because you have such a brilliant understanding of all this, much greater than mine. Where does, where does it leave? How do you feel about all of this? Well, thank you. I'm interested in the New Testament from a sort of scholarly perspective. When did that begin? A few years ago, I think I was talking about religion and theology and I had a biblical scholar on my show.

And as so often happens, you know, I might have an expert in animal consciousness. And so I'll say, okay, this week. I've got to sit down. I've got to learn about how octopus brains works. And as happened with the octopus brains, the same thing happens here, which is actually this is way more interesting than I thought, and I want to keep looking into this. And so for me, the thing, like, I talk about this and I debate this all the time, and I debate whether Jesus was God or whether he even claimed to be God and all of this kind of stuff.

But for me, the undeniable thing is that there's this extraordinary historical figure who did something extraordinary and there's something really weird that happened that caused a bunch of people to start quite early on worshipping him which is a very strange thing to do to a human being especially in a Jewish culture and so to me getting at the Gospels um from a scholarly perspective helps me to understand who this historical figure was that's the thing I'm really interested in almost in the way that somebody might be really interested in Julius Caesar or in or in you know whether the the Iliad, you know, whether the Trojan War really happened and whether that kind of stuff. I sort of take this approach.

That feels to me like that was your point of entry. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But you've had such a journey and you've met so many amazing people who debated so many different angles and things. How does it, where has it led you to? It's led me to, well, I used to be quite on board with the new atheism stuff. I've spoken about this a lot of my show.

You know, like the sort of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, it was really popular, the debates that they were doing, they called it New Atheism. Yeah. And it was this body of like atheist thought with the god delusion, this kind of stuff, which was really popular. And it had this sort of quite strident, you know, debate me, bro kind of attitude. And I was really swept up by that. I thought that was really exciting and cool. And I was beginning to sort of shake that off and grow up a bit, essentially. And then running the podcast, what I've realized is this is far more interesting and intricate.

And I would say plausible than I'd given it credit for before. So, you know, I'm still not a Christian. Some people say to me like, you know. It's a funny word, though, that anyway. Yeah. Like I'm less and less certain about the word. Yeah. You know what somebody said if you thought that you're like this?

The period of greatest growth ever in the history of the church was from 33 AD to 350. And during this time, there was no church buildings, no sermons, no singing, and no Bible. Yeah. You know, and like we get very tied up in all of those things and the labels and even the phrase Christian. Yeah. It's like it's a hard, it's like a, I'm not sure where, for me it feels quite like man-made these sort of words. Yeah. And that is where I can definitely agree with, especially a Christian of your kind, which is to say someone who will say that and recognize.

that because some people place a lot of stock particularly catholics and they place a lot of stock in church tradition and the traditions that developed after nicaia and i look at that with a similar kind of man-made skepticism and i think to myself yeah like it also gives me license to when i look at the new testament and i think you know some scholars think that paul maybe didn't write that letter and that's a big problem but for someone like me it's like who cares if i think if i decide that Paul didn't write First Timothy, then I'll just look at the rest of it. And I'll try to work out what came between the lines. A good friend of mine said to me once, when there's all this discussion about whether we have the real words of Jesus and whether the gospels are accurate

and whether it's all apocryphal stories, he said that because these were written from early church traditions, Jesus was a real man who was doing real things. We can still know a lot about the character of Jesus. He said, imagine if, for example, have you heard of the Churchillian drift where, like, quotes get attributed to Churchill, even though he never said them. Same thing happens with C.S. Lewis. Yeah. And he said, imagine if the only information you had historically about Churchill was a book of apocryphal quotes that he never actually said, but that people believed he said,

you'd still get a pretty good picture of the kind of person Winston Churchill was. That's worst case scenario. You still get a pretty good. It's still getting an image. And so I'm really interested in the scholarly stuff and, like, you know, well, did Jesus really say that? was this an interpolation blah blah blah is this a translation thing but the thing that's most fascinating to me below all of that is like who was who was this guy and what was he doing to to cause all of this even if it's a bunch of confusion and confused timelines and even if some

stories got in there that shouldn't have got in there the fact that this scrambled for ride all of this down and yeah and turn it into even with the drift exactly it's still it's still extremely interesting you if we could time travel yeah you would be one of the rough gang so would i yeah i don't think you'd be i mean even though you kind of like the headlines have used like you know professor sort of oxford well are you a professor not a professor you're very clever do you know me that could that could potentially i put you into the pharisee type thing but you are the opposite you are you are what you would have been running wild with jesus i think yeah and um and and also i sort of always got the

feel with Jesus. He loved the challenge. He loved the repos. He loved the mental, verbal, like, theological challenges. A lot of jousting. A lot of josting. And brilliant sort of responses that have never been better, you know, whether it's saying like, should we pay our taxes to Caesar or not? You know, the Pharisees are trying to trip him up. And yet, sort of that response of just like, well, whose head is on the coin, you know, paid him and paid a, pay to God what is God. It's sort of brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, there's a brilliant. And I would think that I see a great, I see a beautiful alignment actually. I think if we would go back in time travel, you would be, you'd be running wild with it. Well, if the science ever gets there and we, and we managed to go back in time,

I thought when people say, you know, where would you go? Yeah, where would you go? Come on, what would you do? Of course you'd go to meet Jesus. I love it. What point? Where would you go? Would you go after the resurrection or would you want to be there at the beginning? What about in the 17 years? That's interesting. You know, I think that the most, you know, I think that the most, you know, that you'd want to witness if you could only have five minutes would be the moment of the crucifixion. And the reason is that you would see that this was a man, the crucifixion happened, you would see whether the curtain tore, whether the sky opened, all of that kind of stuff. And it would give you all of that. I mean, I'm...

But they keep finding evidence for like the, I think in the sort of, you know, the star stuff and they said there was a... Oh, yeah, yeah, like the solar eclipse. The solar eclipse that I've actually done it's the exact kind of like... That's really interesting, isn't it? It's really interesting. And also that moment is kind of also to see the first ever Roman Christian. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The centurion going truly son of God. This man is the son of God. But then part of me... That's interesting, you go to that moment. That's kind of cool. But part of me would say, although, yeah, you want to see the resurrection. You want to see that part of me you want to say I would just like to meet him walking along during his ministry and just say, listen, man, I've got five minutes. Yes.

Who are you? Like, are you the real deal? Messiah, are you God? Are you claiming to be God? God, like, that's what I'd want to do. I'd want to ask that question. And, I mean, where would you go in Jesus' life? It's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, I think, um, so, I mean, if you think of the biblical, so there are a lot of people that did get that chance and did it come exactly for that purpose. You know, say, I mean, one bit you might not have noticed that I really like. is John the Baptist relationship with Jesus. We kind of touched on it, but there's a really nice moment where if you think if anyone in the Jesus orbit is going to believe in him,

is John the Baptist. Knowing him from birth, kicking inside my mother's stomach whenever Jesus walked in the room, like, I know this guy is a real deal. I'm baptizing the River Jordan saying one is coming after me is like, you know, I know.

And yet when he was in Herod's prison, and he gets a chance to get a message to his disciples, the one thing he says is go back to Yeshua, just ask him, you really are who you say you are. Is it you? And I love that because, like, if even John the Baptist had doubts

because of he's, like, being tortured and in a brutal prison and, like, we're human, you know, then I can have doubts. And it's like, he's been a real hero of mine, actually, John the Baptist. Me too. I think he's my favorite person Well it's interesting you say that I'd be interested

What I like about him Is that everyone always Because Jesus says there's no There's no one being greater Yes He is the number one in the prophets Number one And I always think like

We think to be number one in life You've got to be like Like a leader You've got to be like I would think Moses Or one of these people Like on top of the mountain The Big Beard

The Loud Voice The Authority It's how we're brought up To think These are our people In our lives Who are the leaders and yet it was the rough one who lived off the land and was wild and just loved this Yeshua

character yeah yeah and he said no one better why do you why do you why do you like i think he's fascinating because he seems to be this sort of precursor to jesus in a weird way he's the introduction to jesus there's a bit of mystery as to who he was and why he was baptizing and why he found his way into the wilderness and what it means to preach of baptism for the of sins and why Jesus would need to undergo that. All of these questions are so, so interesting. There are also communities of people who particularly revere John the Baptist. There's a group called the Mandans who are like this Gnostic sect,

who think that John the Baptist is the most important prophet. Now, they see Jesus as a false prophet, actually. There's this whole historical fascination with John the Baptist. Because he's, and it's also the insistence early on that he is not the Messiah. Yeah, you keep saying I'm not the guy. Which implies to me that at the time, there were lots of people who thought he was the Messiah. Because that's what happens. People want to think somebody's great and then the power goes to your head.

When Herod Antipas first hears about Jesus, he goes, this guy is John the Baptist reborn in the Gospels. And so what was John the Baptist doing if when he hears this Jesus guy, it reminds me of John? So it seems like John the Baptist had this incredible ministry and he must have been doing all kinds of interesting things. and there were all kinds of people who thought he was the Messiah. And so we only get clues to that in the Gospels. And so I'd be fascinated. Do you know what? Maybe I'd go to the baptism.

So I'd love to meet John the Baptist. Well, the sky open. Yeah, that would be pretty cool to see too, you know. Because that, if you see that, then you know. Because you can't fake that, you know. So in a way, that's as convincing as a resurrection. Because if you're there and you literally see this guy up in the voice of God going, this is my son.

And the dove, you kind of get a proof of the Trinity. Well, it's like, it gets to meet John, and you get to see Jesus. It's all there. But you know, that might be the moment. all these things. And yet still the next day, they would go, well, the clouds could have. And was the voice? Was it thunder that sounded? And that dove, you know, there had been a few doves around that day. Never enough. What I do know, though, is that I speak to a lot of interesting people. I speak to some scientists. If I ever meet one who tells me that they're onto something

with time travel, I know who to call to go back and meet John the Baptist. I love it. They're grills. Thank you for your time. Well, you know what? You're such a great guy. I really mean it. You're doing such a beautiful job. Keep seeking like all of us. And we're told when we see, we find. We'll see how it goes. Thanks again. You're a great man. Awesome.