Witnessed: Devil in the Ditch - Devil in the Ditch | 7. A Poor Bird

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Families in the Mississippi Delta know to hide the dirty laundry. To protect their own. Of course, Campbell’s family took a decidedly different route. And she discovers she might be doing the same. Unlock all episodes of Witnessed, ad-free right now by subscribing to The Binge. Plus, get binge access to brand new stories dropping on the first of every month — that’s all episodes, all at once, all ad-free. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Camside media. My grandmother's old neighborhood is now gated off. This wasn't directly because of her murder. The gates went up several years later. And there were other notable neighborhood break-ins. But I've been told her death started the conversations. Presh had loved the openness. I can imagine what she'd say about a physical divider,

cordoning off the deltas already self-contained society. Another being her bonnet, I'm sure. But it felt appropriate that in order to interview Gayden Metcalfa, Doyan of this deltas society, we had to cross this barrier, meaning we had to follow another car in because we didn't have the gate code. Gayden lives in a divinely eclectic home. Outside, Ivy climbs the red brick, inside gorgeous hardwood,

sterling silver accents, and more animal hides in taxidermy than a natural history museum. As she opens the door, she tells us she's just come back from the beauty salon. I got a little post, I got a post and crashed for you all. Like beautiful, one and a half. Her white hair is pulled back into a small ponytail and tied with a black bow. The effect is both Park Avenue matron and Revolutionary War hero. We set up in a small library off the kitchen.

As we take our seat, she offers us cookies on a plate that she sets down next to a taxidermy otters paw, which is next to a hunting knife made from a deer's hoof. And across from a framed bat, a gift from her kids. Over to your left is a bear skull. I've known Gait in my whole life, but this isn't a social call. I've come to see her for her expertise. She's written three books on Southern culture, on southern culture, weddings, motherhood, and more to the point, funerals. Being dead is no excuse. The official Southern ladies guide to hosting the perfect funeral. Well, it's a personal experience. The food, the whiskey.

You need to read my book because we have the top 10 funeral foods listed. You know, fried chicken, stuffed eggs, pomenonies, tenderloin, tomato aspect, little rolls, homemade mayonnaise. We have more lends and more china and more silver in the Mississippi Delta. And you're going to put a tootsie down with paper towels and paper napkins. Get out of here. It's her last big party. Let's make it nice.

I will have to say that the landscape of Finals has changed since we wrote that book. The nice we have done, and the old, the traditional way of dying has kind of gone by the wayside a little bit. There was the one woman who wanted her casket adorned with costume jewelry, and of course all the issues brought on by the newfound popularity of cremation. One of my mother's friends died, and she wanted to be very unusual for an old lady to be cremated. They wanted to be cremated. This was not the problem, however.

The problem was the general lack of experience among the elderly crowd with cremations. So when they go to spread the ashes, Gaden says to her horror, these little old ladies all plunge their hands right into the urn and tossed fizzfuls of Bay's cremains into dear creek. Oh, most fainted.

I said, thank God they've already had lunch. We'd be digesting, Bay. If I had known, I would have had a little spoon in there for them to toss, Bay. But I don't know if they just reached in there and hummed it in the creek. Fienders bring out the best in people and weddings bring out the worst. There always ends up having a good time at the funeral. They just so happens to be a body bear. You know, and we're small enough community that everyone, you know, everyone comes to

your funeral. Well, almost everyone. This was the morning after I've been told by Charlotte in no uncertain terms that my uncle was not to attend her funeral. But accusations of murder do cloud family dynamics. Gaden, of course, has heard all the local rumors, including the rumors around Prussia's death. There's nothing people in the Delta light

better than a good story. So, you know, it's the real story, the story you read in the paper, and then the story that we all make up. There are three sads to every story in the story you read in the paper, and then the story that we all make up. There are three sides to every story in the delta. So I hope you set the record straight on all of this. Yeah, I hope I do too. We heard that the people from Jackson came from the crime unit and threw powder all over

and ruined all the fingerprints. That was a story that we heard that they all the fingerprints. I did. That was a story that we heard. That they ruined the fingerprints. Yeah. That they threw all the wrong stuff on all the fingerprints at the house and on the car. For the record, I haven't found any evidence that's happened. But I'm not surprised these stories circulated after the murder. Rumors are often the only thing we have to fill in the gaps of an unfinished story. In fact, it's people trying to understand why this murder has remained unsolved

that led to what is probably the strangest rumor of them all. Though one I've heard a lot, that the reason Richard has never been arrested isn't because there's no actual evidence, but because my family asked police not to arrest him until Charlotte had died. Was it who was Sam we got to wait till you know, you're gonna wait my family? Yeah, your family. That's interesting. Out of consideration. And this would, if you know, the issue were pursued with just killer. They said, you know, not until she's dead, can we pursue this? Well, I mean, there's life after death, because that

lady still live in. Of course, this rumor is absurd. It was my family members who told police to look at Richard, and they've kept that amber burning for nearly 20 years. I explained this to Gaden, but she remains skeptical. A good Southern family, she says, protects its own. Later, as the conversation drifts to other local murders, Gaden mentions Ruth Thompson Dickens, the woman who killed her mother with the garden shears. It's been over 70 years and Ruth's relatives still don't like to talk about it.

That's how families handle scandals, she says. Very protective of their family. My dear, look at your own family, not wanting to say anything about you know who? It is a poor bird who fails its own nest. Uh-oh, I might be doing that. From campsite media and Sony music entertainment, this is Witnessed, Devil in the Ditch, Episode 7, A Poor Bird.

I'm Larison Campbell. I'm Larison Campbell. While reporting in Greenville last spring, I met a guy who moved to town years after the murder. But when I mentioned Precious Murder, his eyes got big and he jumped right in. He knew the speculation all right, who she was, what people whispered about Richard, the whole thing. In your experience, it's something that has talked about around town.

Yeah, I think anytime that name comes up, I can think of probably five or six times that I've seen him out with somebody either right with me or whatever, and he's always pointed out. It's one of the killers, and that casually, you know, that just off the cuff type remark. I don't know how much any of these people actually knew about the case or the inner workings or any details or anything, but once that got into public perception that that was the story, I just think that's easier for people to, you know, that's an interesting thing to say in this case.

Nobody that's ever made that remarked to me, has any firsthand knowledge or anything that would be valuable for investigative purposes to actually solving the crime. I bring up this conversation because it demonstrates the long life of a good rumor. So how do these rumors become greenville lore? What gives a rumor the oxygen needs to survive? Well, it helps if it makes some sense. As I suspect this one does, to many people who

clock Richard's distant affect, his worn sweatpants, and it's got to be appropriately scandalous, as any murder between family members would be. But it should also have the endorsement of someone credible. And that's where a news reporter named Tanya Carter comes in. Tanya also didn't live in Greenville when pressure was murdered. She was more than a thousand miles away up in the Bronx. But not long after it happened, she interviewed with a news director at the local ABC affiliate. She'd heard the story about pressure's murder. And during that job interview,

she told the news director that her first priority, if she got the job, would be to solve the case. She got the job. And in 2004, one year after the murder, she and her news director interviewed Charlotte and Richard in their living room. And the video of the interview, Charlotte sits in a small,

tough-did silk chair. The framing feels kind of awkward. Charlotte, facing the camera straight on. While Richard is in the background, reclining in a club chair that's turned to the side, away from the camera. Tanya's focused on Charlotte at first. She asked her how she's been getting sleep. Charlotte says, and her depressants. At one point, Tanya says to Charlotte who, remember, is the one who found pressure dead. Quote, you mentioned you see your sister's body all the time.

Every day, Charlotte says. What is it that you, if you just so our viewers can be able to feel your pain? Well, I see my sister murdered and, you know, lying on the floor. I like this vibe. Charlotte tells the reporter she thinks someone on drugs probably killed her sister. Maybe it was someone precious was trying to help. Then, a few seconds later, Tanya turns to Richard,

who's still sitting in the background. She tells him she understands he had an argument with Presh over paying for that wedding brunch. Then she says this. Everyone in the community says you did it, but you didn't need to do it. Would you like to set the record straight? Everyone in the community says you did it, but you didn't need to do it. Would you like to set the record straight? Everyone in the community says you did it.

That's when the interview understandably escalates. Charlotte and Richard tell her to shut off the camera and leave. No, no, no,? How do you sleep at night, Norway? It did not do it. Tanya continues speaking in a calm voice and continues to push, saying Richard didn't pass a lie detector test. Deception, she says. No, no, no, no, I will not stand for that.

He did not do it. No. Then who did? I have no idea who did it. But my son was a come. I reached out to Tanya to discuss this tape, but she never responded to my multiple requests for a formal interview.

We did casually chat on the phone one afternoon, and she told me that she was convinced that Richard and Charlotte were involved in precious murder. When I listen to this tape, I'm uncomfortable. Because what I'm hearing is someone coming to an interview not to listen, but to accuse. And how did she become so sure? Well, I have emails between Tanya and precious kids.

She'd send them a list of questions, she'd plan to ask Richard and Charlotte, and then ask them for their feedback. So I wouldn't consider this an independent interview per se. Uncover from CBC podcasts brings you award-winning investigations year round. Infiltrate an international network of Neo-Nazi extremists. Yeah, granted with racist language. Discover the true story of the CIA's attempts at mind control. Their objective was to wipe my memory, or dig into a crypto king's mysterious death and a quarter billion dollars missing.

There are deep oddities in this case. With episodes weekly, uncover is your home for in-depth reporting de la forma de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de la costa de Melchim? No. Melchim van a lija los datos de millones de correos electrónicos para ofrecer recomendaciones personalizadas para mejorar el contenido de tus correos electrónicos, segmentar tu público, entre muchas cosas más, adivina menos, y vende más con intuitymailchim. La marca número 1 en email marketing y automatización. Empezado hoy mismo en mailchim.com. Vas a vender a tus públicos de marcas competidoras en números globales de clientes en 2020 y en 2022. of the public markets, in 2020-2022. Tanya the TV reporter wasn't the first person to try and fail, to get a confession out of Richard in his own home. Some of my own family members would also try.

But before we get there, I think it's helpful to understand them. That is, the people who put the most energy into building this extrajudicial case against Richard. My dad and his two sisters, precious three kids. Of all of them, I think my aunt Martha has the most nuanced perspective on Charlotte. Like Charlotte, Martha's the youngest of three. And like Charlotte, she understood what it was like

to grow up in the shadow of her older siblings. I don't think it was any surprise to anybody that I was kind of considered the challenge in my parents' home. Martha was a little kid with big feelings, and a family where negative emotions were often considered personal failings. So in the grand tradition of misunderstood teenagers, she rebelled. She would get picked up by police before she even started high school. There was underage drinking or driving her parents' car without a license. Once for driving her parents' car without a license while wearing an orange

road cone on her head, the car was a convertible. She had a little bit of a reputation. That filtered out in a community like Greenville to my aunt, to my uncle, to other people. She says Charlotte did try to align with me as a fellow victim. She would say negative things to me about Mama and that was about their growing up. Finally, when I was about in the 10th or 11th grade, I said, I'm not going to be able to talk to you by yourself anymore if you keep

talking about Mama. That's it. And it took a couple of times, but she did stop. Charlotte wasn't the only one who saw an opportunity in their dynamic. My grandmother was well aware that Charlotte wasn't always receptive to getting advice from her older sister. But maybe she'd be more likely to take that advice if it came wrapped up in her big-hearted, troubled, youngest child, so Prash would send her to talk to Charlotte about Richard. Remember, Prash wanted to separate them, have Richard move out of his mom's house.

Be more independent. You give back to your community, you work, you have a job. I was seeing him as getting more and more isolated in his life. As it turns out, my first job after college was I went into social work. And so Mama even further intensified sending me to my house every time I got home. And I was working with youth, you know, trouble youth. And so Mama thought I could maybe make some headway. But it became clear to my aunt that Richard and Charlotte's dynamic wasn't going to change

because they actually didn't want it to change. So my aunt Martha switched tactics and she began trying to convince Prash to give up, to leave them alone. In my mid-40s, it had escalated to the point that Mama was so frustrated and angry with him. You know, she couldn't let it go. She didn't hear that. She just, she didn't hear it. You know, she felt like she had to do something about it.

Because it was wrong. Ha, ha, ha. And she had had it because it was wrong. So who decides what's wrong? Well in our family, precious did. We were all raised on her values and the belief that we had an obligation to write wrongs. Even if wrong should be open to interpretation, as it was in this case, and as it was after Prussia's death. Her murder was a tragedy, and one that couldn't be changed. But my dad and his sisters still saw an opportunity for justice, even without police help.

So they decided the right thing was for Richard to admit he killed Prussia. By this time, all three of Prash's kids were living in different cities. But they each had plans to be in town for yet another cousin's wedding. This one, three months after Prash's murder. We knew we would all be there for that wedding, and this would be a good time to confront, because we at that moment had all of us were feeling like he did this. My aunt Ann, the oldest sibling. By this time Richard had quote,

failed the second lie detector test he'd taken. Police had collected some of his clothes, pairs of shoes, and sent evidence off to the crime lab. And that was about the time Ann tells me. She began to suspect the police were throwing their hands in the air, saying, well, we've done all we can. So my dad and his sisters came up with their own strategy. They went over to Charlotte's house, the morning of the wedding.

Charlotte would be at the wedding that night, but Richard had been disinvited. Our extended family suspected him too. My dad says he and his sisters were suspicious that Charlotte, quote, �New Richard was responsible for the murder. And that she was covering up for him, so we went over. That three of us roy, moth, and myself.� They sat down with Charlotte in her living room.

We told her we wanted to come and talk to her, and we told her that we felt that her son was the one responsible and that we didn't think she was being forthcoming about what she knew and we wanted her to be truthful about it. But we felt about this murder investigation. We think he actually did this murder. Charlotte calls for Richard. To come into the living room, he just kind of saunters in, swaying from side to side a little bit.

Just, you know, coming in takes a seat. And he sits down. Each one of us had our spot. We had rehearsed before who wanted to say what. And we each told him. we felt he was responsible. Finally I was my turn and before I got to the point. Charlotte jumps in. In the middle of this is pretty heady talk we're having here. She goes would anyone like a Coca-Cola?

Just you know just ridiculous. So anyway, basically what I said, you know, Mama took her finger, she pointed at you, she said, I have had enough of this. You're going to take care of your mother by getting out of this house, getting a job, living your own life. And with that, he pushed her, is what I think, probably with his finger maybe.

So I said, at any rate, I jumped to the point where this is what I thought happens, that he, you knocked her down and then you hit her with a candle stick. His reaction was a reaction of no emotion whatsoever. I remember that he wasn't outraged. He's confident, he's relaxed, he's calm. He didn't protest in any sort of vigorous way. He just said, no, I didn't do this. Or something to that effect. I mean, would you expect didn't do this. Or something to that effect. I mean, would you expect any other reaction from him?

I would have expected some table pounding. If somebody had accused me of murder, and I had nothing to do with it, I would have said, this is an outrage. No, I didn't do it. So I remember thinking at the time, boy, that is really damn me. But when I hear this, I wonder what he could have done that wouldn't be damning.

My dad and his sisters came into this confrontation, believing that Richard was guilty. So maybe anything he did would have looked like an expression of that guilt, which means he's damned if he pounds on that table and he's damned if he doesn't. And then there's another wrinkle. As my dad says himself, a lot of Richard's actions could be seen as unusual. And that is on the one hand what causes me to think he could have done it. But on the

other hand, as I said earlier, it has consistently caused me to think that's what got him here in the first place. Meaning that when someone's actions are unusual, they're more likely to look guilty. My dad, by the way, has always been the family diplomat. He's still the guy I call for advice on gracefully extricating myself from awkward situations. He's also told me that he's not convinced it was Richard. He thinks that's a good theory, but without hard proof, it's still a theory. He is a professional skeptic after all.

So why would he go with his sisters to accuse someone of murder if he didn't really believe it? I asked him this recently. He paused for a while, and then he told me that he thinks at that time he did believe Richard had killed Prash. But he also thought it was important for the three of them to put up a united front as a family.

Richard picked up on that dynamic. They had accused both of me and my mother of those being the liars because they never believed they came over here and they accused me of something. I naturally tried to defend myself. After a while Roy, he stood up with the two hands behind him and they marched out, they marched off like the ducks at the Peabody Hotel, you know, walking out the door and I followed them out the door and I, and and, and, and, and, oh Roy, holler that me saying, you failed five lighted jacket this. I said, I didn't think with two of them.

What happened with the investigation after that point? Well, nothing seemed to be happening. They had no leads, no suspect. You know, except maybe the police looking into Richard, she says. Only goes the family push forward. And I thought they had enough circumstantial evidence to take it before the grand jury.

I really did, but they never even got close to that. So it just steadily got worse. Although the DA investigator did tell us you can try a case with circumstantial evidence, it's not ideal. But they didn't even have that. Circumstantial evidence would be something of Richard's found at the crime scene, or a witness who saw him near her house.

I asked my aunt, Dan, how her suspicions affected her relationship with Charlotte. Well, I cut my relationship off, and the way I did it, I wrote her a letter, talked about the history of her, you know, and being a part of our lives and all, but that I could not be a part of her life. Charlotte and Richard say that hurts.

I don't care how many years it was. I don't understand why they let it go on. And persecuted you was persecuting me. That's right. Why they let it go on and Pursuqued you was persecuting me. That's right That's the compassion layers and no compassion and I don't understand that And little I and of course, you know Roy has always been my heart my dad if they allow those The boys love and be family back then We could have all shown each other compassion, but they decided not to. They decided to alienate themselves from us of which you can't talk to people when they don't want to be around you. This

is the only time with a family member I've ever been given the opportunity to speak. And you've listened to me with open ears. And what they should have done was they've let 19 years pass. It's all gone now. The hurt can never be mended. I remember the weekend of this confrontation. I remember what I was reading on the flight down to the wedding, the Da Vinci code, like half of America.

And I remember seeing on CNN during my layover that both John Ritter and Johnny Cash had died. I remember the backyard wedding tent at our cousins' house, and of course the food. But if anyone told me about the confrontation, I've long since forgotten. I suspect they didn't. I was my dad's oldest child, but I was still his child. And this was all adult affairs. Warning, this podcast contains juicy tales of a super dysfunctional family.

Brothers betraying brothers, friends becoming enemies, and a mother trying her best to keep everything from falling apart. No, this isn't a reality TV rewatch. I'm Dan Jones, your host, and this is one of my all-time favourite true stories. Join me on a trip to the Middle Ages to meet history's most dangerous dynasty, the Plant Adjuncts. This season, the plots are thicker, the ambitions greater, and the betrayals are even more devious in the epic saga of the family that shaped our world. From something else in Sony Music Entertainment, this is history, a dynasty to die for, season

two. Listen and follow on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Adam McCay, Director, writer and most importantly, podcast host. In the first season of our show, Death at the Wing, we explored a series of tragic deaths from the wild world of 80s basketball. This season we're going back further to the 50s, the aftermath of World War II, and a series of tragedies in Hollywood will tell stories of trailblazing

actors who lived fast and die young. I hope you'll join us on Death on the Lot. Of all of precious kids, Mayan and pursued Richard the longest. She's the one who collected all the investigative documents she could. Those binders I now have. But it wasn't just collecting. It's taking notes, doing her own analyses. Like she wrote up details about Richard.

What I considered a profile and I sent it to this psychiatrist in Houston when I asked him to give me a profile. What sent it to this psychiatrist in Houston, but I asked him to give me a profile. What was he really like? What could he do or would do? And it's excellent what he wrote. Have you read that yet? I went through the garbage at their house and I wanted to sample one thing of his handwriting, which I do do have. You got that? OK, good. And then I just thought maybe there would be something in there. What, why did you want that handwriting sample? Well, you never know.

It would be my own evidence if I found something to match it to, or you just grab anything you think could help. You know, in a situation like that, that's what I was thinking, but going through the garbage didn't show anything. Anna's in many ways, a textbook oldest child, poised, charming, on the move. When I was growing up, the wood floors in their home

were always freshly pine-solved. The glass-sliding doors smudge free. They had an aerobics room in that house, and she was as dedicated to the practice as Jane Fonda herself. She is still even in her mid-70s stunning. And like her mother, she does not easily retreat. I think this has made the lack of resolution in precious case harder on her than her siblings. So when she tells me she's gone through Richard's trash, it makes me sad. If the police needed a handwriting sample, they'd get

it themselves. So I wonder what the strategy is here. Is it about building a case? Or is it about doing something, anything, to avoid sitting there feeling helpless? Victoria Blue Lightning Snake Entered my aunt's lives a few years after the murder. As you might have gathered from a last name like Blue Lightning snake, Victoria had a specialized area of expertise, clear-voyant abilities. She talked to dead people. A cousin in North Carolina had met her and gave my answer number.

By this time, the private investigator had wrapped up his report, but he hadn't brought in more detail about what happened to Prash. But Prash knew exactly what happened to her. If only she could tell us. And according to Victoria, she could. Victoria died of COVID during the pandemic, otherwise we'd be hearing from her here. But I do have one audio tape of Victoria and two male psychics describing Precious murder. The tape itself is low quality, hard to understand in places.

But from what I could discern, there's a point in which they all become very fixated on the tree and Precious yard. The one near where police had found Precious lawn chair and coffee cup. near where police had found precious lawn chair and coffee cup. Victoria says she sees the tree, then the others jump in. Oh, I see it, I do too. It's kind of like a tent revival where one person catches the spirit and then everyone falls down around them. Eventually, Victoria would paint a very detailed picture of precious murder.

According to Anne's notes, Victoria told them that Prussia was killed in the kitchen. It was an accident at first, that Prussia and Richard had been arguing. Prussia stepped backwards and slipped. Then in a panic, she says he moved her body to the living room and bludgeoned her there. I want to point out that this is very close to the version of events my aunt spelt out back when she confronted Richard before that wedding, long before she even met Victoria. So it's likely Victoria was familiar with those details before the reading. And again, this is a psychics hypothesis.

Richard has never been arrested or charged for this murder. But Victoria made an impression on my aunts. She told them that the press would come to her at night, sit on her bed, and talk. And she relayed stories that the press told her about her life, her marriage. I met Victoria. We had a big family reunion six years ago. And when she came up and spoke to me as though she knew everything about me, I was uneasy. And even though I wasn't surprised that Charlotte hadn't been invited,

it was still strange to have Victoria there. And not the great aunt I'd known for 40 years. Less spring, I interviewed my aunt Ann at her home in Tennessee. Both my dad and their other sister Martha were going to be there too. I was excited to get everyone in the same room together, telling stories, talking about pressure. I really love being with the three of them. They've got such a rich history together, so many great stories, or more accurately, a few great stories they tell so many times. I'm sorry, I'm sorry! You're a dick!

He hasn't been drunken to me! I'm sorry! The stories always told the same way, regardless of who's telling it. But what they don't talk about the same way is what happened after Prussia's murder. They each have a different take on it. You describe yesterday your sort of research in your efforts as an obsession. What drove the obsession? I think to, I think it's kind of a tribute to both of my parents that they would expect this, that you know they believed in truth and justice and honesty.

Also, as Mama would say, put yourself in the other person's shoes. Think about it from another person's point of view. But the version of Presh that my dad has let guide him is the joyful one, the one who knew how to focus on the big picture. I think each of us has to deal with the trauma of this. In our own way, what I did was to try to focus on the positive and the positive for me were all the great memories of Mama, the great stories and what she did for us as a family.

And I just, I find a lot more peace there than I think I would have in pursuing what I fear may always be an unsolved crime. I think that mama would have been more inclined to take the approach I've taken. And how would pressure felt if there were evidence pointing toward Richard? I think she would have wanted justice done. I do. I remember being fully committed initially to trying to get to the bottom of what happened. And I wasn't focused on him more than any other possibilities. I began to feel like Anne and Martha were convinced for what were certainly in their minds justifiable reasons.

Convince Richard was responsible. seemed to be on a single path to pull together whatever support was needed to substantiate that conclusion that I really began to feel like my doubts were getting in their way when a psychic got involved. I think that caused me to lose even more enthusiasm while I think at the time it, I think, caused the two of them become yet more enthusiastic. And so I think that's when I decided to step back. Do I think it'll ever be solved? No. I don't think it'll ever be solved.

My aunt Anne lands on the opposite side. She thinks it'll be solved. I think so. Mm-hmm. I do. I do. What do we need to solve it? Oh, we need to show by circumstantial evidence

that he did it. We don't really have any evidence. I keep going back to something. It's something Greg Precious Foster sun told me, and over the last few months of reporting this, it just keeps popping back up in my head. From his point of view, there was this really sincere big push for evidence in the beginning. A push he was supportive of. I remember just I remember everyone we've got to find evidence. We have to prove that he did this. We got to you know and I began personally to question whether proving he did it was the same thing as finding the truth. And I don't know who did it.

And I cannot commit to the theory that he did because they just haven't produced the evidence. And you can prove something is true and it be false, but you can prove something is true, and it be false. But you can prove it's true, depending on how you assemble your evidence. I've never consulted a psychic, but I can relate to this feeling of just desperately needing to get a hold of pressure.

After all, she was there. She saw what happened. And unlike the person who killed her, she'd probably be willing to talk. And ironically, examining her death the last several months has made her feel almost alive again. Like she's there in her house, just waiting on me to call her.

I found myself trying to put myself in her shoes on the morning of her death. Like I was trying to time out how long, say if she were sitting outside that morning, it would have taken her to get into the house. But of course I don't have access to her house. So I used what I did have, which is an office in Soho, and I went off 20-year-old memories, moving furniture to replicate the distance of her lawn chair to the sunroom door, the sunroom door to the telephone. And then, we hit a timer. And to add an extra dose of realism, I slowed down. You know, like an 85-year-old woman? Yeah, very high school production of 12 Angry Men.

And then we did this several times. Start at the lawn chair, hit the timer, get to the telephone. Once, like the door was already propped open, once, like, she had to open it herself. And then Lindsay, a producer, looked up and said, what are you doing? We can't prove anything with this. It feels like you're just grasping at this thing that you,

that feels like it could be, it could be so easy and so close, just figure it out and step into her shoes. And when I'm looking through this stuff, like the ache that I want to talk to her, is so strong at times. And I want to talk to her because being so close to her makes me miss her.

And of course, I also want to talk to her because I'm like, you know. Like, you know what happened. And it feels at this moment like she's not that far away. It's hard because I know the truth exists. But like Anne, I don't know how to get at it. Charlotte died on July 21st, about two weeks after I last saw her. Next time, on Witnessed, Devil in the Ditch.

It's not really all that often that we get to hear from the one who's died in their own worship service. They were waiting till part death and then they will come in and begin the accusation. We'd heard the years and years that he was going to be arrested. What did you think when I told you I wanted to do this podcast? Unlock all episodes of Witnessed, Devil in the Ditch, Add Free right now by subscribing to the Benj, our new podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show,

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show page on Apple Podcasts, or visit getthebench.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. Witness is a production of campsside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, Devil in the Ditch was reported and hosted by me, Larison Campbell. Lindsey Kilbride is the senior producer, and Shiba Joseph is the associate producer. The story editor is Sean Flynn. Studio recording by Ewan Lai-Tremuen and Shiba. Sound Design Mixing and Original Music by Garrett Tiedemann. Additional Music by APM and Blue Dot Sessions.

Additional Field Recording by Johnny Kaufman and Ambreel Crutchfeld. Fact Checking by Ben Kalen. Special thanks to Emily Martinez and our Operations Team. Doug Slaywin, Alia Papers, Destiny Dingle, Ashley Warren, and Savina Mora. The executive producers at Campside Media are Josh Dean, Vanessa Gerberiadas, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher. you