Witnessed: Fade to Black - The Arsonist Next Door | 4: The Bait

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

The only hope of ending the arson spree for good is to lure the arsonist out of hiding. Law enforcement sets a trap they’re certain he won’t be able to resist. Binge all episodes of The Arsonist Next Door, ad-free today by subscribing to The Binge. Visit The Binge Crimes on Apple Podcasts and hit ‘subscribe’ or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access. From serial killer nurses to psychic scammers – The Binge is your home for true crime stories that pull you in and never let go. The Binge – feed your true crime obsession. A Sony Music Entertainment and Novel production. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson. On my podcast, Dinner's on Me. I've taken guests like Sophia Vergara, Catherine Hahn, and Margaret Cho to some incredible restaurants around Los Angeles. And now you can check them out for yourself. I've put together an Apple Maps Guide featuring just some of the delicious spots. We've shared meals and stories on the show. Go explore and maybe even go grab a bite where we recorded.

Just search dinners on me on Apple Maps. and don't forget to listen on Apple Podcasts. Listen to all episodes of The Arsonist Next Door, ad-free right now by subscribing to The Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page. Or visit getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen.

The Binge, feed your true crime obsession. It's January 2001, and for 28-year-old and for 28-year-old reporter James Hibbard, the year has started with a bang. He managed to do what an entire task force of over 40 cops and FBI agents could not. The headline was an exclusive interview with the preserves arsonist. His front-page interview for the Phoenix New Times blew up, and the task force is not happy about this. They put the screws on James, pressuring in to cooperate.

And they offered him a $76,000 reward if he does. They said, you can still be the journalist hero while being an actual hero and help us catch him. Nobody needs to know that you help this. Now, the young reporter has a decision to make. take the reward money and set up another meeting with the arsonist or stick to his journalistic guns and protect his source. So what happens next?

I would never sell out my profession by helping cops catch somebody who called a journalist to tell their story. Did you give that spiel to the cops? No. They would definitely not care about the importance of media and society. That was not these guys' vibe. Lieutenant Rob Handy felt complicated about this. He was reporting the news, reporting his story,

and didn't feel any obligation to help us identify the person and felt it was against his journalism standards. Was that frustrating? Oh, yeah. We were angry, we were frustrated. For sure. As a journalist, I respect James' decision. But decisions have consequences.

Not only would James lose out, on 76 grand, the decision will impact him in ways he never expected. We looked into James quite a bit. Not as a suspect out there lighten the fires, but we saw James as facilitating and promoting criminal activity.

James Hibbard, the guy who interviewed the arsonist, is about to fall under the microscope of the task force. We looked into everything we could about him. Did you surveil him at any point? Sure. We're going to try to figure out was our

relationship there? Did he actually get a tip? How did this work? Sometimes you think maybe you're being followed. I remember saying to friends that I thought something might be up. And then you wonder if you're just being paranoid. It's not just James in the crosshairs. The entire Phoenix New Times is now a target. We did several search warrants on the New Times. We did all kinds of things. Rob Handy and his task force, with the help of the county attorney, take the New Times to court. Trent Crump says the team suspected the newspaper might have information that could blow the whole case wide open.

Listen, if we serve subpoenas on the New Times that try to compel them to give us information, it tells you how we felt. We surveilled every New Times derailery truck, and we surveilled all the New Times stands in the Phoenix area we could. Even readers of the paper are viewed with suspicion. We followed a few people that picked up papers. We'd get their plate number or figure out who they were or get them ID'd and they'd go on our list. The task force is casting a wide net. We were searching for needles and haystacks, and we were literally grasping at anything we could. Did it turn up anything?

No. By this point, it's safe to say that James Hibbard is really feeling the heat. I'll never forget a column in the Arizona Republic. slamming the interview, which said the next time this guy burns down a house, it's Hibbard's fault. Other reporters in town, probably a little bit more law enforcement friendly, we're now starting to bash him. Rival newspaper, the Arizona Republic, published an editorial that said, quote, if you meet with an egocentric fire starter, you become part of his gang. You not only spread his message for him, you let him walk away, Zippo in hand. In the face of all this,

The pressure on James begins to take a toll. Every morning I would wake up with this pit in my stomach, this dread of wondering if he burned down another house, if he hurt someone during the night. Because if that happened, look, I would still be able to defend what I did professionally. But privately as a human being, you know, I would have felt horrible. This experience had a lasting impact on James. He was blamed from all sides for proliferation.

longing the arson investigation. But looking back on it now, it's clear that that's not really what happened. Because back at the Task Force HQ, investigators are starting to see a silver lining in James's interview. Was there anything in that article that helped you guys? Oh, yeah.

There were things in there that we felt were probably truthful. The more information you have, the better off you probably are. We dissected every word of that article. And there is a lot to dissect. The arsonist told James that he's a management professional, with an advanced degree. He has a healthy income and works in downtown Phoenix. Plus, the whole piece is littered with James' impressions of the guy. His confident demeanor suggests he's ambitious and educated.

The fact that this man wanted to do an interview at all, and the way he organized the meeting, that's also a clue. And in the opinion of Special Agent Ken Williams, a big mistake. He shouldn't have said anything. He should have just been quiet. But he thought he was so smart that he could taunt law enforcement by manipulating the media. Thank God the guy went to the reporter. The bad guy made a mistake.

When the task force really digs in to the arsonist's quotes, they notice a key detail. This man is adamant that none of the fires were personal, except for one. The second fire at Lee Benson's place. he tells James that fire was personal quote that monstrosity stuck out like a sore thumb we warned him not to come back that's how they realize there was some special affinity for the area around the lee benson fire we felt that that area was very special to that person after weeks of surveilling james James Hibbard, the Phoenix New Times, their delivery trucks, and random people reading the paper on their lunch break, they decide to try something new. If we set a trap in that area, they may come there.

A trap. In what they're hoping is CSP's own backyard, where one rookie officer will soon find herself in the heart of the action. Is this him? This is him. I know this is him. This has got to be him. Is this him? From Sony Music Entertainment and novel, I'm Sam Anderson. You're listening to the the arsonist to next door. We're trying to put together a group to do surveillance. And it was going around to different squads in the precinct asking for volunteers. When this arson spree first began, back when only a couple of houses had been burned. There was no task force.

There was just Lieutenant Rob Handy, his small team, and anyone else who might be up for helping out in their spare time. I was trying to get like one volunteer off every squad. It was the early days of the investigation. And there doesn't seem to be a single officer interested in Rob's vague request to help with some long hours of overnight surveillance. They wanted to know the hours.

They didn't want to be flexible. They wanted to know if they were getting overtime and all these things. I'm like, look, I have no idea. I don't have any idea how this is going to work. I'm just looking for people who might be interested. No takers. Except for one.

Oh, I'll do it. And he looked at me like, come on, really? And like, no, I'll do it. This is Carrie Miaso. And I'm like, sure, Carrie, you're in. Carrie is a rookie officer fresh out of the Phoenix Police Academy. She has no idea that in just a few months, she'll end up playing a pivotal role in the investigation.

In fact, she's only recently completed her first solo patrol. So I leave the precinct, and there's a hot call. It was like somebody throwing rocks at a car. or something silly like that. Something was going down at a local fast food restaurant, and Kerry was the closest officer to the incident. I'm like, oh my God, what am I going to do? Pick up the mic, hands shaking, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to answer this call.

Ever felt the fear of public speaking? Now imagine you have to speak in front of an audience made up entirely of cops. I'd be scared to even get on the phone and call somebody. You know what I mean? And so now I'm a police officer, And I've got to get on a radio and let people know that something's going on. This is outside my comfort zone big time.

That's why when Rob pops his head into her daily squad briefing with a mysterious offer of more work on a local arson investigation, Carrie, unlike her more senior colleagues, is all in. I am a firm believer in just getting as much experience as they can. What happens next is the part you've heard already. This case snowballs into a massive Joint Task Force investigation. Houses are burning down left and right. The media is in a frenzy about God-fearing eco-terrorists running wild.

The FBI has made this one of their top priorities. And rookie officer Kerry? Before long, she's doing the kind of stuff that senior officers dream of. She's working with the FBI. She's working out of the FBI office. She's doing all kinds of fun things. She's working undercover, conducting surveillance, generally having a ball. If you want me to be honest, I do remember there was some jealousy that happened there.

They were mad at me for being gone that long. It wasn't just that Carrie was missing from her usual duties. Suddenly, she was working crazy shifts, six days a week with overtime pay. That's money in the bank, and some of them didn't like that. Now, the same senior officers who refused Rob's request at the start of the investigation are beginning to grumble. Why does this rookie get to be part of the biggest case in town? You didn't volunteer.

I got my volunteer. You're not bumping her now that it's fun, and then she's making money and having a great time. We're not doing that, you know? Rob remains loyal to this rookie volunteer, and his loyalty is about to pay off big time. Kerry and the rest of Rob's team are gathered in the main briefing room

of the arson task force. FBI case lead, Terry Kearns, is there. He kind of was brainstorming ideas on what we could do. Special agent Ken Williams is there. We had a really good team on this. Trent Crump is there, too. We're doing all sorts of stuff trying to figure out who's involved, who's not involved. And coordinating all of them is Lieutenant Rob Handy.

We all would sit in a room once a week and get on a whiteboard and try to refocus and re-stratage. It's the same room where, not long before, the team, was enraged to find out they'd been scooped by a cub reporter and before that where they discussed that local man caught masturbating in a construction site and before that where a police sketch was handed round that bore a striking resemblance to one of their very own lead investigators we'll never know exactly what it felt like to be in that room but if i had to guess i'll bet it smelled strongly of coffee and unprocessed emotions but through all the highs and more More often, Lowe's, they gathered here and tried their best to figure things out.

We'd sit in those meetings and talk, and then all of a sudden somebody would come up with a theory. We'd all walk out of there thinking, yeah, it's one guy. You know, and then we'd meet the next week after we worked the leads for the week, and we'd be like, yeah, it's a group. By the time spring 2001 rolls around, after more than 12 months of investigating and a budget that was quickly approaching a million dollars, they still aren't even sure if CSB is one guy or a group of terrorists. They have nothing solid. I mean, we have FBI who are breathing down our necks. We've got council people breathing down our necks.

We've got our Phoenix Police Department brass that's breathing down our necks. And everybody's telling us what they want done. The haystack's getting bigger and bigger, but the needle's still the same size. So what do you do when you can't find the needle in the haystack? Well, you could try making the needle come to you by setting a trap. I don't know who came up with that concept But whoever did it was a great idea We started penciling it out on a whiteboard

How does this look? What can we do? All of us felt like this has got a good chance of working The idea is this Stage a fake construction site And see if they can get the arsonist To come to them Let's rent some heavy equipment Let's get a sign going

We need a property, we need fencing, we need this, we need that Let's make this thing look like a construction site. In the aftermath of James Hibbard's interview, with CSP's line about that second Lee Benson fire being personal, they know exactly where to set this thing up, just around the corner from Lee Benson's house. One of the neighbors has offered to help. He owns an undeveloped lot just around the corner from Lee.

This neighbor agrees to let the task force stage the beginnings of a construction site on his property. While we were doing that, the tech people at the FBI were setting up surveillance cameras in the desert for us. They also set up a big metal shipping container in the desert, close by, with monitors, to watch the surveillance footage live. Cameras that were transmitted over the cell frequency then were very new, and they weren't real advanced. We had to have people sit in these connecks boxes and watch cameras all night every night. The trap is almost ready. The fence was supposed to go up, like on Friday, and the surveillance was supposed to start that night. The very first night the cameras are installed,

the sun sets over Phoenix and the moon begins to rise over the desert. Sneaking through the cul-de-sac under the cover of darkness, a shadowy figure makes their way towards the fake construction site and starts attaching notes to the fence. Four white sheets of paper with CSP on all four sides. the fence. All the cops need to do now is swoop in and grab the guy. This summer, we're loading up the car.

Two boys, one dog, and more snacks than any family should need, and heading out on some long overdue camping trips. But before we even pack the marshmallows, I made sure our house is protected. That's why we use SimpliSafe. When we're out in the woods with no cell service and a squirrel stealing our trail mix, I don't want to be worrying about what's happening back home. SimpliSafe's active guard outdoor protection

is what gives me peace of mind. It's proactive security, AI-powered cameras plus live monitoring agents who can spot suspicious activity, speak to someone in real time, trigger spotlights, and call the police before anyone breaks in. It's easy to install.

No contracts, no hidden fees, and it was named Best Home Security System of 2025 by CNET. Honestly, I wish packing the tent was that simple. Visit simplysafe.com slash crimes to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplysafe.com slash crimes. There's no safe like SimplySafe. You know that moment when you're researching something completely unrelated and you stumble onto a fine that's just right? That happened to me last week while procrastinating on the script rewrite,

and I came across this 100% European linen utility shirt from Quince in a color called Driftwood, and now I can't stop thinking about it. It's got this effortless lived-in look, structured enough to wear to a meeting, breathable enough for a weekend away, and just that timeless, no-notes kind of way. It's definitely sitting in my cart right now, just waiting for me to pull the trigger. Quince is where I've been finding a lot of my go-to pieces lately. They make elevated basics that actually last, like lightweight pants, breathable polos, and classic layers that don't fall apart after a few washes. And here's the thing. Everything is about half the cost of similar brands. That's because Quince works directly with top artisans and cuts out the middleman,

so you're getting quality without the crazy markup. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.com slash crimes for free shipping and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C. dot com slash crimes when Rob wakes up the next morning he learns that the arsonist took the bait CSB came to the fake construction site and left their signature threats the plan worked

except for one minor detail there was an IT related issue with the cameras something was a miss. The camera is put up by the FBI surveillance team, but they didn't know where to point it, thinking this isn't going to happen overnight. The cameras that were facing out into the mountain preserve,

and it wasn't aiming at our site. We missed him. We missed our opportunity. With the cameras pointing uselessly into the desert, CSP slipped away into the darkness. Here we come up with a perfect plan, put it all in, motion and we fumbled it. Wow. How did that feel? Oh, it was devastating. It's like fumbling on the goal line ready to score the winning touchdown and the other team picks it up and runs the other way and wins. That's really what it felt like. It was horrible. I was irate. Terry was upset. Who is this

guy? You felt like you were one-up all the time. Trent was upset. Now if he hits again and we miss that opportunity, that's a big deal. But out of everyone on the task force, Rob is the most upset. That was probably the one time where I, you know, melted down a little bit. We've worked so hard to get to this point. We looked at so many things to get to this point, and now we missed our one opportunity we're going to get. We were getting sloppy.

We lost our focus on details. I brought everybody in a room and chewed everybody out and was ticked. After all those false leads, countless dead ends, and who knows how many sleepless nights, Rob feels like things are really starting to fall apart. We were missing important things. And in hindsight, that was my fault. At the time, I didn't realize that.

I was mad at everybody else. I just said, how many more ways can we fuck this thing up? When I said, hey, it's only 9.30, Rob. And I said, what? And he said, there's infinite ways we can F this thing up. And then everybody laughed, and the whole temperature came down. The team takes a couple days to recover, and then they regroup. They're hopeful that with a lot of them.

few adjustments, they can lower the arsonist back to the construction site again. So the cameras stay up, and now they're pointing in the direction of the fake construction site. Several weeks went by, no activity on the cameras. After monitoring the cameras for weeks, at considerable expense, Rob and his team are beginning to lose hope. They're just about ready to take the whole operation down and try something else. But before they move on, they've got one last idea up their sleeve. We decided to come up with a sign to try to entice him again. The sign, with a big, colorful drawing of a gaudy mansion.

Just to make it super clear exactly what type of house would be going up on this property. This big, massive mansion that was going to take up the whole lot. Let's put the square footage on it. Let's put a picture on there and let's put it up. Coming soon kind of a thing. And right below the mockup of the house, they put a message. addressed specifically to the arsonist. It says,

we promise to live here in harmony with all the wildlife, nature, plants, and you. They mount the sign on the fence, right in view of the camera. I could see the front of the fence and I could see the sign on the fence. It's late at night and rookie police officer Kerry Miaso,

is crouched over a tiny desk inside a repurposed shipping container in the desert. And you're just like looking at a screen, there's nothing going on. It's April 20th, 2001, and it's not Carrie's first shift in the shipping container.

She's actually been doing this for weeks. And you're like, how long are we going to be doing this? Nothing's happening. I mean, literally, the wind's blowing. You can see that. Outside, the desert is quiet. But inside, she's sharing the cramped space with another officer, John.

John is a former Marine-turned-cop, more senior than Carrie, who just finished her probation. Hour after hour, Carrie and John stare at the screen, showing the fake construction site with its fancy new sign. All of a sudden, I see this subject walk towards the sign.

And I'm like, John, you see that? And he goes, yeah. Carrie squints at the grainy monitor as the shape of a person comes into view. My heart's starting to raise now because I'm like, is this him? This is him. I know this is him. This has got to be him. This is him.

I could see the hand go up. I'm like, John, is he writing on the sign? No, he's just looking at it. I'm like, are you sure? I'm like, I think he's writing on the sign. John's not right. I'm like, I think he is. So we're having this argument about what's going on.

I'm like, anyway, it's the first person at that. this sign since we've been sitting here. Carrie knows she cannot miss this opportunity. Everything the task force has been doing for over a year has all built up to this one single moment. This is it. John leaps into action, dialing headquarters to let them know what's happening. Meanwhile, hands shaking, Carrie reaches for the police radio,

her old nemesis. I don't know what I'm saying. I have no idea what's coming out of my mouth. My brain is freezing. I can't figure out where I'm at now. I'm just so excited. Oh, we need the air unit. We need it down here now.

We got somebody over here. We might be the arsonist. You know, I'm just... Just bumbling it. Just, yeah. You know, what's funny is, I think I still have a recording of that. No.

Yeah. This is the actual recording of Carrie calling in the report. man we need to see if we can get an area up in a mountain preserve. Dispatchers, you know, where are you at right now? 6.79 extra, do you have a 100 bop? And I'm like, I know, I'm at the, you know, just south, just go south on 32nd Street. He's leaving the sign now. He went this way.

I'm stupidly giving descriptions of colors of clothes. I told you it was black and white hair. I told you it was black and white. I can't see colors. And I'm saying, I think he's got pink shorts on. I'm like, how do I know he's got pink shorts on? I don't know. The call goes out from dispatch for the nearest unit to respond immediately. But the nearest unit was kind of in the middle of something. If I remember correctly, they had just stopped at jack in a box or something like that. They're in the drive-through of a fast food restaurant. And they hauled ass.

Hamburgers were flying across the dashboard. Cokes were all over the place. By the time these guys reached the mountain preserve, not only are they probably covered in ketchup and coke, the suspect has fled the scene. But the officers know these trails like the back of their hand. So they charge off into the darkness to cut them off. Minutes later, Kerry's on the dreaded radio again.

I remember as I'm on with the dispatcher trying to tell her where we need the air unit. They cleared over on their other radio and said, We got him in custody, ma'am. We got him in custody. In March 2017, police in Ketchikan, Alaska, got a worried call. And I haven't heard some of them, so I'm getting worried. It was about a beloved surgeon, one of just two in town, named Eric Garcia.

When police officers arrived to check on the doctor, they found him dead on a couch. Is it a suicide? Is it a murder? What is it? From ABC Audio and 2020, cold-blooded mystery in Alaska is out now. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson. On my podcast, dinner's on me, I've taken guests like Sophia Vigara, Catherine Hahn, and Margaret Cho

to some incredible restaurants around Los Angeles. And now you can check them out for yourself. I've put together an Apple Maps guide featuring just some of the delicious spots we've shared meals and stories on the show. Go explore and maybe even go grab a bite where we recorded. Just search dinners on me on Apple Maps

and don't forget to listen on Apple Podcasts. The man who wrote on the sign has been arrested. In the shipping container, Carrie and her partner John are ecstatic. It felt really good. After a full year of mind-numbing surveillance, fruitless dead ends, failed operations, and constant media pressure.

Now, finally, they have someone in handcuffs. I got called in the middle of the night. We all went and met out there, and we just set up a command post and started working it from there. FBI case lead to Terry Kearns gets a call too. You've put so much time and effort and work, and this person who you feel has been outsmarting you, you finally were able to catch them in the act.

There's an undeniable excitement in the air. But kind of a conservative excitement, because you don't know for sure, is it really him, and is it only him? A few minutes later, FBI Special Agent Ken Williams pulls up to the scene. I see the decoy sign that we had up there to sign depicting the scowdy house. I see that there's some graffiti written on it. The suspect has left a message for the builders of this fake construction. site. In response to their pledge to live in harmony with the plants and animals of the desert, he wrote two words. Okay, thanks. Followed by that familiar acronym, CSP. And there, in the middle of

the street, is their purple. I see the subject standing in the street with handcuffs on him in the back with the patrol officer, and I remember him standing there in his underwear. The suspect is wearing nothing but a light t-shirt and boxer shorts. In his hands is a red marker. This is a grown man. He's in his 40s. Put him in the back of a patrol car. And I followed patrol car down to police headquarters.

When Ken arrives at the station, the suspect is waiting for him in the interrogation room. Ken knows he has to work quickly. Because even though this guy was caught at the scene of the crime, he was not caught committing arson. Ken has a limited window to get this guy talking, or he'll be set free. You know, if they spill it up, then we got all the time in the world to talk to him. According to Ken, there are three types of jail interviews.

There's the tough guy. Somebody that's going to lawyer right up. Guy doesn't want to talk to the cops. The remorseful type. They're devastated. They know the gigs up. They've been caught. They're going to cough it all up. And then there's a third type.

They waived their rights. They're going to talk to you. but they are not really wanting to talk to you. They want to find out what you know about them. That's the challenging one. That is a guy that's basically saying, okay, bring it on. You know, that's what he was.

It's like, okay, this guy wants to play. At 633 in the morning, on the 20th of April 2001, the interview begins. Have a seat over there. I'll pull the other door. in the room is special agent Ken Williams and another investigator from the Phoenix PD. And I'm Ken Williams with the FBI here in Phoenix.

What you're hearing is a police recording I got a hold of, Ken's actual interview with the suspect. The suspect is shivering, wearing nothing but a t-shirt, so they bring him a space blanket. You want your blanket? Yes. How tall are you? How tall are you? The man has brown hair, beginning to gray. He wraps the silver blanket around his shoulders. You can hear it rustling in the tape.

Are you willing to discuss what you're here about, the criminal damage? Without an attorney? Yeah. Yeah. They start with a simple question. What the hell happens tonight? Well, what the hell happened tonight? I mean, why?

What's the rationale behind this? It's a real stupid thing, guys. He says, I did a real stupid thing, guys, but he can explain. I read the story. He read an article in the New Times about the guy whose house burned down and how he wanted to rebuild. And I got pissed off. Pissed off not at the guy wanting to rebuild.

Pissed off at the guy burning those houses down. I have the right to build a house there. I just wanted to leave a message to say, hey, it's okay to build your house here. So why sign it CSP? And I did it into the guys that I was part of that group. And I guess I thought it would have more credibility like the group is backing off

if I use their initials. That's his story. And he sticks to it. I like the desert. I respect prior property, too. I live on the desert. He's done something stupid, he admits. impulsive, criminal even.

But he's not the arsonist. And tonight's message was just an isolated incident. I had a leave message, calling off the dogs. Are you part of the dogs? No, sir. They start asking the man about his life. Do you have a family? What do you do for work?

They became a family, man. I had a good career about it was working hard. I was working six days a week. They learned that he lives just a couple of streets away from Lee Benson. His backyard connects directly into the preserve. They ask the suspect if he's been following the fires. Sure.

People ask me about it. Because you live so close? I live close. The man tells him he's an avid hiker and jogger. A bit of a night owl. He's self-employed in marketing and PR. He's a soccer referee. He's married with a daughter, and they have quite a few pets.

Two dogs, two cats, 13 hamsters. He's on the board of the Local Homeowners Association. He doesn't exactly fit the mold of an eco-terrorist. The investigators ask him how he feels about the environment. He says he thinks we should all recycle. But what about the Earth Liberation Front? Ever heard of them? Where have you read about ELA?

Oh, I think there was a story at the new time from the Iranian about the arson group. The suspect tells them he might have had a look on their website briefly after reading about them in the New Times. Or perhaps it was an episode of 60 Minutes. He recalls that their spokesperson looked like a tree hugger, a granola eater. You would not put yourself in that area.

They'd care about the environment. They asked the man about his educational background. The suspect studied journalism. You went to journalism school? A long time ago. Have you done any journalism work? Have you done any journalism work? Right out of college.

Well, I would the radio leave there. Interesting, Ken suggests. Because whoever set these fires would have to be pretty media savvy. Are you calling me a suspect in all those fires? Well, I'm telling you that we're going to investigate to try to find a suspect normal fires. The conversation goes around in circles.

Is it possible that you are a member of the group and maybe this is your signal to us that, you know, you're done doing things? I'm not done doing anything except doing stupid cranks like this. Okay, well, I just ask you. They go from the fires to the man's background to the fires again. He was calm.

He was very calm and collected. Ken also tells me he was struck by the changes in the suspect's demeanor. He went from a very effeminate person when we first got him, building up to like he's a tough guy, you know, almost like very indignant to going back to almost childlike. Without really answering any questions, we could not pin him down. It was a very strange interview. Ken gets the impression that his suspect is trying to suss out what the task force knows.

He wanted the talk, but he wasn't talking. He was fishing. Ken holds back the details. We don't want to run home and start to destroy evidence and stuff like that. By this time, it's after 9.30 in the morning. Ken is confident. He's got all he can from the interview.

At least for now. He wasn't going to give us anything. the interview is over they send the man back to a holding cell later that day they'll let him go the mood in the police station is celebratory they've got a suspect and even though he'll walk free

they're going to watch him like a hawk but not everyone is celebrating Warren jerms the local guy who loves jogging in the preserves is about to receive a phone call that will change his life forever. My wife Mia called me and told me that Mark had been arrested

as the arsonist. Mark Sands, his running buddy and hiking partner. He was what I would call my best friend. The guy he sat next to at church while they poured over a copy of the Phoenix New Times interview with the arsonist. I said to her, I said,

It can't be. I didn't believe it. I just didn't believe that it could be Mark. Next time, on the arsonist next door, Mark Sands has been hiding some dark secrets, and his best friend Warren is pulled into a spiral of lies. Mark thought that I was an angel helping him

but it turned out that I was the serpent in an unexpected place unlock all episodes of the arsonist next door ad-free right now by subscribing to the binge podcast channel not only will you immediately unlock

all episodes of this show but you'll get binge access to an entire network of other great true crime and investigative podcasts, all ad-free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand-new series. That's all episodes all at once. Search for The Binge on Apple Podcasts

and hit subscribe at the top of the page. Not on Apple? Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. The Arsonist Next Door is an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and novel. This series was written and reported by me, Sam Anderson. It was produced and reported by Leona Hamid. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr, research by Zayana Yusuf. Additional production from Tom Wright and G. Stiles.

Our editor is Dave Anderson. Additional story editing from Max O'Brien. From novel, our executive producers are Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan. From Sony Music Entertainment, our executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. Sound design, mixing, and scoring by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Our original theme song was composed and performed by Nicholas Alexander. Production management from Cherie Houston, Joe Savage, Saratobin, and Charlotte Wolfe. Fact-checking by Danya Soleiman.

Story development by Nell Gray Andrews. Novel's director of development is Selena Meta, and Willard Foxton is novel's creative director of development. Special thanks to Jen Feifield, Libby Gough, Bob Kahn, Zander Adams, Anthony Wallace, Steve Ackerman, Carolyn Sher Levin, and the team at Reviewed and Cleared, Mario Caciatolo, Isaac Fisher, Kevin Lee Carras, Jess Swinburne, Sonny Mar, Carly Frankel, and the team at WME.

You know, I'm going to