Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Dare to Explore the Good w/ Kobe Campbell

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

When life looks too messy for miracles, that’s usually when possibility pulls up! This week, SJR and trauma therapist Kobe Campbell invite us into a concentrated exploration of the good—even if life is doing the absolute most. We’re talking the kind of wellness work that doesn’t skip the hard stuff, but meets it with the permission to play, the courage to be curious, and the boldness to betray your feelings. ‘Cause friend, you can't keep shrinking when life gets loud. Kobe shares how a crisis moment wasn’t her dead end, but a doorway to freedom in God. And for those of you who shut down when life gets tough, she’s giving the play-by-play on how to plug back into your power source!

I may never trust that I have it. I'm okay with that. Like, I am okay with never being fully confident in me having anything. I am fine to settle on trusting that God is with me. I'm good with that. Like, I'm just good with that. I just decided, like, there's no way that the rules that the world has imposed on me are real. I realized, like, oh, I can't pretend anymore. If something is in me, it's because it was designed to come out. What's up? What's up? What's up? This is Sarah Jakes Roberts, and you are listening to the Woman Evolved podcast.

I am the dog is in my office again. I don't know why the dog is in here. If you're listening for the first time, we have a dog. I'm not a dog person. The dog's always in my office, always sitting up underneath me. I don't like him, but his toy is making noise. Could he be in his kennel away from me?

Yeah, sure, he could be. Does he think we share this office? Probably a little bit, but the point is that I don't like the dog. Okay, if anyone asks you all, that's my is that I don't like the doll. Okay? If anyone asks you all, that's my starting up sticking to it. What's up? How are you doing?

I hope that this podcast finds you well and at peace and feeling the love and presence of God. And if not, I'm praying that by time this is over, you feel a little bit closer to God and to yourself. And you know what's interesting about feeling closer to God and ourselves is that oftentimes we don't feel close to God because we haven't taken the time to check in with ourselves. How can you feel close to the Creator if you don't even feel close to yourself? I don't even know why I'm saying this, but maybe one of you all need to hear it.

Part of the beauty for me with going to therapy was being able to reclaim my heart, my feelings, my presence, my emotions to live and exist within my body. And as a result, I believe that it made me closer to God. There's a scripture in Hebrews that talks about us not having a high priest who cannot sympathize with us. And it's basically saying that Jesus can empathize with any emotion that we have ever experienced, but we often don't allow ourselves the opportunity to feel. And when we don't allow ourselves the opportunity to feel, we miss out on the nearness of being close to God. So hopefully this is a reminder to someone that the greatest gift you may be able to give yourself is not how do I continue to detach from my feelings and emotions and try to over-spiritualize

everything but rather how can I be in my body, be present with myself and then from that space invite the presence of God into my grief, my frustration, my anxiety. I promise you it is life-changing. Just dropping that nugget here. I am recording this on Tuesday, May 13th. Someone somewhere probably hates that I tell you all when I'm recording this, but just in case between now and next week something pops off and it's like, wait a minute, this podcast seems a little tone deaf.

It could be. It could be tone deaf because she may not know the tone, but he knows, I know who knows the tone, Michelle Williams and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Okay, listen, so this is coming off the heels of Mother's Day. If you listen to last week's podcast, then you know that at the time that I was recording it, I had no idea what I was going to be speaking about. I will tell you this. I have never felt more unprepared to give a message than what I felt on Sunday.

I preached a message called Optical Illusion. The title I literally was texting at 9.30, server starts at 9 o'clock, at 930, I text one title, I was like, no, I texted another. So basically, I was just out here flowing with the Holy Spirit. And you know, I just want to talk to people who say, you know, but you know the Lord, you know, you have a relationship with God, God always speaks through you. And I just want you to understand that for me, getting up to preach a message and not being clear about the message is similar to a singer getting up to sing a song to a

room full of people with no idea what song is going to be played. You know, like, can I sing? Sure. Do I know the words to every song ever written? No. Do I know some of the words to some of the songs? Yeah. But I don't know what's going to happen. And so you're just sitting up there in this space of vulnerability and trust that God's going to come through. And yes, God comes through every single time. Does that ease my anxiety? It doesn't. When I got finished preaching on Sunday, I was so tired, not from delivering the message, but I have to stretch, who I have to become,

to hop over my anxiety, to hop over my fear, to hop over my inadequacy. It is exhausting. It's a burpee. It's a broad jump, high rocks burpee in order for me to jump over what I'm feeling in that moment. And God showed up and I'm grateful.

And the feedback on that message has been beautiful. And no denying that it is the Holy Spirit and not me because I would rather not. And just so you know, when I say I'm prepared for a message, so I pray before I start studying, a lot of people have asked me like, what's your process? So I pray before I study, I'm praying for what's happening in the world. I'm praying for our church and our community. I'm praying that my heart would be positioned to hear from God. Like if there's anything in me, Lord, that you want to address and confront, please bring that to my attention so that I can feel conviction, which ultimately brings us to nearness, right? Because conviction is anything that is keeping us

from being made in, from reflecting the image of God, being made in the image of God, becoming more like Jesus. And so Lord, is there something that I have been doing the way that I've been showing up that is limiting me from being able to hear from you and receive from you? So I start in prayer and in my prayer time, I just felt like the Holy Spirit was highlighting the word redefinition for me.

Redefinition, that's all I had. And I had a busy week last week, well, the week that I was preaching the message. And so I just had that word redefinition. And so I knew that I would be studying something about our identities being redefined. But I had an interview with Maria Shriver. I had a staff development day.

I had Hey You Saturday. And then, you know, I still got kids and things and meetings and all of the stuff. And so Saturday morning before Mother's Day, I get up and I'm like, first instinct is to crack open your laptop because you got to figure out what you're preaching. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to trust. I'm going, first instinct is to crack open your laptop because you got to figure out what you're preaching. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to trust. I'm going to put myself first.

It's Mother's Day weekend. I'm going to put myself first. I'm going to take care of myself and I'm going to trust God. I'm going to trust God. Okay. And so I got up, I took the dog for a walk. I practiced running outside. I've been running on the treadmill.

I eventually want to run a marathon. They don't do marathons on treadmills. So your girl need to catch her wind outside, get used to inclines and downhills and all of the things. And so I ran outside for a little bit, then I came inside and I was like, okay, now I'm going to give me a quick little three mile quick little, not to flex, but you know, I'm gonna give me a quick little three miles on the treadmill. Then I was tired. I was tired. I was like, I'm gonna take a shower. I'm gonna eat. Then I was like, I'm gonna lay down. It's two o'clock. I'm gonna take a quick little nap.

Then I'll spend the evening in my word. Six p.m. when I woke up. Six pum. Six pum. When I woke up, I woke up in a panic. Okay? Because I wasn't supposed to nap for four hours. It was supposed to quick, quick little nap so that I could dive into the word. Okay. So anyways, I got this word redefinition. I'm like, who are some people in the Bible who have experienced redefinition? I land on the story of Gideon. I'm reading Gideon, contextualizing the text. And then how do I make this make sense that the Lord wants to redefine our identities? I can make it make sense. These are the questions I'm asking myself. Nobody cares. Y'all can skip through this part of the podcast. But I'm asking myself. Nobody cares. Y'all can skip through this part of the podcast.

But I'm asking myself, like, what does this story mean? Like just the story itself, where does it fit within the overall landscape of the story of Jesus? What is the history and context of what's taking place in this time as it relates to the nation of Israel? So I look at the text, just the text. And then what does this reveal to me about the character of God?

What do I need to understand about God and about humans' reaction to God sometimes? Like when God's trying to do something in our lives, how do we show up in a way that could prohibit God or limit God from doing what God wants to do? What can we do that supports and shows our openness? And so I look at it from that perspective. And then I ask the question, what does that mean for now?

We're in 2025, what does this mean to your life, SJR? What does this mean to the life of a 60 year old white man? What does this mean to the life of a 14 year old little boy? What does this mean to a man? I try to look at it from different angles. And so where I kept getting stuck is like, I understand our identity development and how our identity transforms throughout our lifespan, not even spiritually, just as a result of our community and memories and different experiences, how they shape and change our

identity. And then how do I draw the connection between how the Lord wants to introduce us to a new identity that we're not going to be conformed to this world, but that we can be conformed to the image of God. And so what does that process look like and what hope and inspiration is in that as it relates to our ability to walk with the Lord. And then I felt like I got that part. But then I was like, how do I relate this to Gideon?

The question was like, do I drop Gideon out? Like no shade Gideon, but like, do I drop you all together? Like, are you, are you messing me up? Because like, by the time I laid the foundation about like how our physical identities are formed and then how the Lord wants to conform our identities and our image into the image of God, it felt like Gideon didn't really matter anymore in my mind. But I felt like Gideon's story

represented an archetype of what happens when we are engaging with the Lord and how we have to trust the Lord to be with us. I don't know. I just got up there and I said, holy ghost have your way. And yeah, so that's that on that. Wow, that was, I know that was lengthy, but I was tired, I was exhausted, but the Lord had his way. My brother tried to, like, I won't say encouraged, like, cause it's not like I got, was like, oh my gosh,

that message was terrible. It's just hard to get up and be vulnerable in a vulnerable position, which is speaking for me because I don't really feel like that's my strength. And it's difficult to get up there and to feel unprepared in an area where you are uncertain. It requires me to really depend on God, which I know makes my relationship and trust with him so much deeper, but it's also very exhausting. My brother is like, you know, you need to trust, trust that you got this, trust that you got this. And I may never trust that I have this.

I'll be honest. Someone, can we make this a clip? I'm going to say this. I may never trust that I have it. I'm okay with that. Like I am okay with never being fully confident in me having anything. I am fine to settle on trusting that God is with me.

I'm good with that. Like, I'm just good with that. I don't necessarily need to feel like I got it. I'm afraid of that feeling. And maybe I need to talk to a therapist about that. But I'm totally fine with being like, I don't have it, but I trust that God's got me and whether it feels like success or feels like failure doesn't necessarily matter because as long as I can feel the presence of God, I know that a failure will become success because he causes all things to work together.

And I pray that in the moments where it is a success that I'm sensitive enough to celebrate that I experienced the goodness of God in a way that maybe I didn't anticipate. So yeah, that's my story. I was tired after Mother's Day, I just, a puddle. Pray for your strong friend. And so yeah, I'm getting ready to go to LA for the called. My husband's got a conference this weekend called

the called it's a leadership conference where I get to speak about my leadership journey, which is going to be very interesting. And then, okay, that's it. That's it. I'm finished talking. You've minding my business. Let me mind yours. Hey, Sarah. So listen, question. I had a home girl and home girl was married but like home girl cheated And home girl ended up pregnant by like not the husband so home girl came to me after all was said and done and she was like I got an abortion and she confided in me and she vented and she cried and we prayed You know, we done the Christian things.

However, Homegirl never told husband about it. And I felt bad because I'm cool with the husband. You know, he ain't never done nothing to me. He cool, he cool, he cool. So my question is simply, should I have encouraged her to be open with her husband? I mean it wasn't my place to tell him right? Like surely I just to what extent should I be minding my business with this?

Because I knew in this baby and she did cheat. I don't believe in abortion myself personally and I think it's just a really sticky area Yeah, how should I be running my business? When should I like should I have just minding my business when she came to me? I should just listen as a prayer. I Don't know. Give me your opinion. Give me your opinion. Give me your opinion. I'm gonna keep drinking more water and trying to mind my business. That's all. That's it. All right. Bye. You had absolutely, positively no business dropping tea that hot into this podcast.

into this podcast. Even McDonald's had to put a warning on their coffee to caution us that it's hot. Caution, it's hot. You ain't give us no warning. You ain't give us no disclaimer. Wowzers. Okay. I literally, I sent this to Dr. Anita and I hope that she sends over a voice memo that I can plug into this podcast just, just, just, just so I have someone to help me answer this question. Hey, hey, Dr. Anita here. I do have some words of wisdom for our good sis. I do want her to mind her business. Absolutely. But the business is the business of friendship. The business of friendship is being a safe space. The business of friendship is being a vault.

Sometimes it means keeping our friends secrets. The business of friendship can be hiding the body with her even though you don't agree that she killed someone. We don't have to agree with everything that our friends do. But if this is a safe space, then our friends should be able to talk to us. It's clear that her friend feels a lot of pain around the situation because she expressed that they sat together and cried and prayed. However, it sounds like the attention turning towards her friend's husband is putting her

in danger of some judgment. And so we do want to mind our judgment. It is the relationship with her friend that is central. And if she is wanting to have an action taken based on the emotion that she's feeling for the husband, I would encourage her to refocus on the primary relationship she's in, which is with her friend. Additionally, marriage is complex and the best thing that she can do is encourage her

friend into a therapy space to talk through how her friend found herself in that position in the first place and hopefully encourage her to invite her husband to therapy as well, where they can work with a couple's therapist and have that information be revealed in a structured space with the kind of support that could give them the best chance of recovery and healthy relationship moving forward. I would hate for her friend to just spill this very difficult information unexpectedly because her girlfriend was like, you need to tell your husband this is what you should do. It's really important that she continue to create safe space for her friend, loving her friend and

check on whether she's being triggered by her thoughts or feelings about the husband's position. And is there anything that she needs to work through on her side? Otherwise, mind the business of friendship. There's a lot of context that I think is important to this conversation. And I have some perspectives on your friend and what happened with your friend. And then I have some perspectives on the role

that you should or should not play in it. So I'm gonna start with this. Your friend and infidelity, not something that is uncommon. I think we hear a lot about men having infidelity, not something that is uncommon. I think we hear a lot about men having infidelity in marriages, but we don't speak often about a woman in infidelity. I don't know the history of their marriage, its health and its origin,

but I think that there is something to be said about your friend having the opportunity to determine what she sees the core values of her marriage being and whether or not she feels like she's living up to those. The reason why I mentioned the history and origin and pattern of the marriage is because there are some marriages where this type of experience or behavior would be fine. Not fine, but it's just a part of the pattern that has been set and two people are in an arrangement where maybe they realize it's not the healthiest, but they don't want to leave one another alone.

They have these mountains and mountains of secrets that they learn to live and function around. If that is not the history and pattern of the marriage, because that's like a completely different conversation. If that is not the type of marriage that she has expressed desiring to you, or there's a change that she wants to have in her marriage, one that has more transparency, more intentional conversations about what loyalty and fidelity looks like,

then I think that you have an opportunity to hold your friend accountable to who they say they want to be. And the beauty of friendship is not just having someone who will comfort you, but having someone who is willing to hold you accountable to who you say you want to be. And so as it relates to your involvement, I think understanding those variables is important, but also am I serving you well if I do not at least mention

that the secrecy of this experience is bad for your marriage and bad for the type of wife you wanna be and bad for the type of relationship that you wanna have, not just with your husband, but with God and who he's given you the charge to love. And the fear of saying anything I can imagine is it's gonna damage my marriage.

It's going to ruin our trust. It's going to break us in some way. And I think that the secrecy of it is offering the same possible outcomes. And so to take control of the secrecy, to take control of the harm by owning it, by being prepared to deal with whatever consequences, understanding why was I led to cheat?

What was happening in our marriage? I was in a marriage before where there was infidelity and not just infidelity, but I wasn't showing up in a way that was healthy. And my mouth, thank Jesus that he fills it with the Holy Spirit because it used to be filled with something else. And I used to pop off and be violent and crazy and it wasn't a healthy situation. And I realized that what was more damaging than his cheating. The impact of his cheating on me was the impact that I was having on myself by showing up as someone I wasn't proud of. And so, you know, I wanted to be

someone who I could look in the mirror. I don't know what your friend got going on, but that's between you, her, and the Lord, primarily her and the Lord, you know, is what kind of person do I want to be as I stand before God? And does this situation, does this environment, the culture of this relationship allow me to show up in that way? And if not, how can I change the culture by leading in honesty, leading in transparency, and leading in the fact that, you know, maybe this is your person and maybe you've had a bad history, but you want to make things work. And so I want to turn a corner by leading in honesty and transparency by dealing with

whatever hurt and harm my actions have caused you and figuring out how we move forward. It takes two people to be on that page and to live up to those core values. I think I've said enough there about you trying to determine, you know, how you can serve her in holding her accountable to who she says she wants to be and what she believes marriage is supposed to be. That's my initial thought. As it relates to you, I do not think that it is your place to tell the husband though, which I think you're kind of on the same page. Like that's not really my guy. I do think that there's an opportunity for exploration in the history of your friendship and maybe,

this is gonna maybe sound a little harsh, but like, I don't, is this a safe space? But like, if we don't know how the marriage ended up in such a state that, you know, these behaviors were permissible, I'm trying not to be judgy, cause I'm really not judging about it. But I do think there's a part of me, if I'm being honest, I

would be like, man, if you if your man's could if your man's could get dealt with, what them, you know, are we good? You know, what does integrity mean to you in the context of friendship? And you know what I mean? Like, are we are we good?

And I just I would just throw that out there now. If it's like not, I think they think that ups up and down to tipsy turvy we good? And I just I would just throw that out there now if it's like not a thing they think that ups up and down tip tip tip tipsy turvy topsy turvy has been real raggedy over there but that's my girl I know her we good here like boom I'm totally good with that. But you know if the ball moves as it relates to integrity transparency honesty and loyalty like if the ball is always moving the boundaries are a little loosey goosey, I would wonder for a minute, like, are we good?

Like, or are we not? And so I would consider whether or not you feel safe in a friendship where, you know, where hiding and secrecy may be a method used to avoid accountability. And I promise you, I mean that in the least judgmental way possible. I just think it's worthy of exploring. Last thing I'll say is this, you listen to this podcast, you sent me a mind your business

question. I am assuming that that means in some way you are walking out your faith if not full-blown, you know Like I'm trying to make my life look like Jesus. Some of us is flirting. Some of us are flirting like who is Jesus? I don't know about it I'm still trying to look look like the world a little bit trying to see what's happening outside Trying to move like some of us are there and then others are like no, I'm serious about this. I want to buckle down and So I want to close with this. It's much easier to judge someone's actions

than it is to consider, how could I find myself in a situation like that? Maybe I haven't done it. Maybe it feels like something I would never do, but I think compassion and empathy suggest, how could I end up in a situation like that? If I'm tired, if I'm stressed, if I'm feeling unheard, if I'm overwhelmed in my work and with my life,

with my children, how could I find myself in a situation where something that I think I would never ever do becomes something that is likely, something that is probable, easier to do, and then something that I end up hiding. I think when we look at ourselves through that lens and look at other people's actions through that lens, that it creates empathy. But then I also just want to leave you with this scripture about walking in light, because I think that it is the reality check that helps me to not

be self-righteous, but also reminds me to really live a life of integrity. And I'm going to say this and then I will actually shut up. It's a podcast. I'm supposed to say this and then I will actually shut up. It's a podcast. I'm supposed to be talking about. I will say this. Integrity hasn't been something that has always come easy for me. I think that because I experienced abandonment, rejection, isolation, and I believe in many ways that I perceived that love was most available when I performed well

and did good. And if I didn't do those things, it felt like I wasn't lovable. And so anything that I did that wasn't ideal, that was maybe could have been failure, anything that could have made me look bad or make people look at me poorly, I would lie or hide it. And it took me some time to get to a space where I'm like, I'm gonna be okay living in truth and not trying to manipulate other people's idea of who I am.

Like, yes, I messed up. Yes, I failed. This is my truth. And whether you love me or hate me or it changes the way you see me, I can withstand the pain, the disappointment, your disappointment in me, because I want to live a life of integrity. And a scripture that really speaks to me as it relates to that is in Ephesians 5 and 8. And it says, for you were once darkness, you were once you. Not you was in darkness.

Not you was playing hide and go seek, but you yourself, you was the darkness. But now you are light. Wait a minute, wait, I was darkness. I was shame. I was embarrassed. I was prideful. I was manipulative. That was a part of who I was. You wanna talk about identity? That's who I was ashamed, I was embarrassed, I was prideful, I was manipulative.

That was a part of who I was. You want to talk about identity, that's who I was. But now I am light in Jesus. When I experienced it, it's like Jesus is so slept on. Because it's not just like, oh, I'm saved, I'm going to heaven, which is beautiful, love that I got that ticket. But also what it means for me right now is that I am light now. I have a new identity.

And so I get to walk as a child of light. This is Ephesians five and eight, walk as children of light. That word walk in the, in the Greek means to tread all around, to walk at large, to live or to deport oneself. So I get to deport myself from this space of darkness into this space of light. I can tread all around as like walk as children of the light. And then if you need further context for what that needs,

verse nine, for what that means, verse nine continues and says, for the fruit of the spirit is in all goodness. That means that if I'm walking as a child of the light, there ought to be fruit. And the fruit of that, because the spirit of God is working in me, is all goodness, righteousness, and truth. Finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.

Okay, so I live to find out what is acceptable to the Lord. And I walk in goodness and righteousness and truth. That is my goal. Do I live up to that every day? No. Do I feel convicted when I don't? Absolutely. Do I get up and try again?

For sure. Because I'm a light carrier and I have to make sure that I'm doing what is necessary to keep my wattage as bright as possible. And so my advice to you is to not just be an observer of this situation, but to check your own heart as it relates to it and what opportunity is there for you to protect your light and if your friend is open to it, to protect her light as well, the light of her heart, the light of her relationship with God, the light of her marriage. So the tea is hot.

The tea is piping hot. Well tickle me excited because this week's podcast is with a woman who I have come to really love and enjoy. Her name is Kobe Campbell and she is an incredible gift to... I'm so charged to the body of Christ, but no, she's an incredible gift to the world. I have been tremendously blessed by her insights. We were on tour for Power Moves last year and I asked her if she would join us on the road just to be available as a resource. One because we're often navigating rooms where people need additional support and care. I realized that sometimes in the course of having conversations or preaching messages

that people can get discouraged or they need additional support. She was available for that. Also just for the overall wellness of the team, one of the things I love about her is that she is certainly well versed and well educated as it relates to mental and emotional wellness, but she's also filled with the Holy Spirit. And I love that combination. It inspires me. And I believe that our conversation is going to inspire you as well.

She is an award winning trauma therapist. She's back in the building. She's not new to this. She is an award-winning trauma therapist. She's back in the building. She's not new to this. She's very much so true to this. Last time we saw her, she was dropping all kinds of gems at the Women Evolve Conference. If you have not heard the conversation with her and her husband, well, it wasn't just her and her husband. It was actually a panelist for the Women Evolve Conference. They were panelists at the woman evolve conference. And the conversation was just so beautiful. Oh my goodness.

She talked about wanting her man to heal for herself and how the Lord checked her on that because ultimately, you know, wanting someone to heal for your own selfishness is low key selfish and how the Lord really taught her to want his healing just because he's a child of God and he serves it. And that's just one thing that I always said in my mind, especially when I just be frustrated, not just in my marriage, but if I'm frustrated with my children or something that's happening in the world to be able to be like, you know what? I want you to heal, not so that my life can be better, but so that you can be better.

And she really leaned into that. She's here today though to keep it 100 about trusting God and stepping fearlessly into what seems impossible. For those who already know Kobe, then you know she doesn't just talk about healing. She creates space for it too. From founding the Healing Circle Therapy and Wellness Center to hosting Oasis, a mental health retreat for Christian women, our good sense is making sure that healing is inevitable when you give yourself permission to go beyond your limits.

So if you've been waiting for a sign to finally put yourself first, I have a feeling that this is it. I really do feel like there's an opportunity for us to help our listeners. I hesitate to just say women, because I know that there are men who are listening as well to embrace a sense of exploration. I think that everything in life offers us this opportunity to be certain and concrete and to be sure. And yet, I think recognizing the necessity of exploration and how it has the ability to heal us and change us as just our default setting is something that has been very

healing for me. So I'm wondering when you hear those words like explore the possibilities, explore what's possible, what comes to mind. Two things, curiosity and play. Curiosity and play. When I talk to my clients, I literally was just talking to a client today about what it means to be curious about the future instead of anxious about the future, that we can take our anxiety, turn it into curiosity by asking ourselves, what are the possibilities? And usually our brain already knows the negative possibilities, but like, what are the positive possibilities?

Like, does life have to be lived the way it's been demonstrated to me? What if there were no limits? What, what would I do? How would I show up? What would I like to do if there was no expectation of me? If there was no consequence to the choice, what choice would I make? And how that is like at the core of play. Play is just like concentrated exploration of the positive, of the good, of the exciting. So concentrated exploration of the good, is that what you said?

Yeah. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Okay, that makes me feel, depending on the day, afraid to allow myself to marinate on a good that seems impossible or not likely. I feel like there have been seasons in my life where exploring and becoming curious about goodness brought me, or I guess it didn't bring it to me because I didn't do it, but I feared that it would bring me grief that I couldn't access it.

So I chose not to even look at what was possibly good. What would you say to someone who can relate to that? Well, courage. I would literally just say the word courage. Like, okay, let's let's Practice courage the courage is not just a quality you have or you don't have it is like a muscle that's developed and Courage is only needed for risks and for many of us. We have to build a tolerance for positive feeling We often talk about how people need to build tolerance for pain, but a lot of us need to build tolerance for pleasure.

Nasty word. Sorry, girl. It gets overwhelming. It gets overstimulating. And so we get to a place where the pain is actually something we're more acquainted with than the pleasure. And I think for many of us, I mean, I see it a lot in faith spaces. Like, it's so much easier to see God as someone who is ready to punish us than someone who has good work set aside for us to do, one who overwhelms us with joy and peace and has a light load for us. Like that to people, that is overstimulating. Like that is overwhelming to them. Okay, I'm thinking about someone who I'm currently

walking through some life challenges. And we've talked a lot about self-sabotage because it just seems like she's so ready for the negative to occur that she's missing out on the beauty that is literally right in front of her. So if someone needs to build a tolerance for pleasure, how do you release the fear that keeps you from diving into the pleasure that is in front of you?

And is it just back to courage? Yeah, duh. But also, I think that you don't have to banish fear to experience pleasure. Okay. Like, think about riding a roller coaster. Ain't a person in the world who's not a little bit scared when that roller coaster is about to drop. It's okay if fear, like I think sometimes we like to think of emotions as like singular

experiences, but like they can overlap. They can coexist. So let yourself feel the fear and expose yourself to the opportunity to experience the pleasure too. Wow. Can you tell me about a moment in your life where you had like just a breakthrough moment on your journey of healing that redefined what you thought was possible? Oh, let me think, let me think. Hmm.

Writing my book. Writing my book. I wrote that book in nine weeks. Wow. And it was one of those moments, you ever been in a place where it's like, either it's going to get done or it's not? Like, there's literally not enough time to be like, can I do this? Can I?

You just have to jump in and be like, we finna find out if God's really up there in them skies. We finna find out. We finna find out, you know? And it was one of those things that I didn't have enough time to panic. I either had to believe in myself or not. And I was terrified. But I felt that like that invigoration while I was writing.

I was just like, I am author, ain't I? You know, like I really can't write a book. I really can. I really can do this. And I think that that was such a paradigm shift because that was such a hard season. I wrote my book in COVID. I had a three-year-old and a day-near newborn, a six-month-old, and they were home with us the entire time. And my mind was set on the idea that if I was going to do the thing God put before me, it had to be under the perfect circumstances.

Sometimes I can be an all or nothing person. Either it's done in excellence or I'm not doing it at all. And the Lord showed me the beauty of the in-between. Yes, you can feel anxious and you can write it. Yes, you can feel overwhelmed and good things can come out. You wanna know what I really learned in that season? I don't have to feel good to do good.

I don't have to feel confident to write well. I don't have to feel like I'm on top of the world to speak well or to communicate to my clients well. And so I started to separate my feelings in the moment from who God called me to be. And I was like, I'm tired today. I'm exhausted. I don't know if I have any wisdom, but God put something in me and I don't feel great. And instead of just saying, well, I'm not going to do this because I don't feel great.

I was like, I'm just going to do it anyway. Oh, okay. Oh, I get chills thinking about this because I can totally relate because I never like feel like speaking. Like if I'm ever, you know, we could be in a meeting or something and someone be like, do you have something to say? I don't, I don't. I don't, it's not my default setting,

but I acknowledge that in the moments where God has orchestrated to use my voice, my experiences, my revelation of who he is to the intent of helping others. That is an opportunity in which I am trusting the anointing over what I feel. And I feel like many of us have to be willing to put our anointing in a position where it is what we are trusting over our feelings. Now you can't live like that all of the time, right? You gotta come back, you gotta rejuvenate,

you gotta be restored, but there is something to be said about living your life in such a way that if I have to choose between letting the anointing shine or letting the fear make me hide, I'm gonna allow my anointing to shine. Yes, yes, and you never get to know if the anointing will shine unless you have a moment where you're gonna betray your feelings. Yes, yes. And you never get to know if the anointing will shine unless you have a moment where you're going to betray your feelings.

Yeah. Yeah. Feelings are information. Not all information is true. Yeah. Right? So my feelings might be communicating something to me, but they're not always communicating the truth of my capacity about how I feel about other people or about how other people

feel about me. My truth, sometimes our feelings are just a regurgitation of our past experiences. about how I feel about other people or about how other people feel about me, my truth. Sometimes our feelings are just a regurgitation of our past experiences. Yeah. Sometimes they're not. It's just data. Yeah, it's just data.

And so we get to respond to that data. We get to manipulate that data. We get to say, hey, I hear you. Like when I talk to my kids, they be waking up at 3 a.m. Like I want to watch TV. I understand you want to watch TV. Now go to bed.

Yeah, two things are true. Two things are true. You want to watch TV and you need to get your bed. I mean right now. Get in that room before I raise my voice. And so I think that for many of us, we are missing the opportunity. I said this to a client today, don't you want to find out?

We got this one life. Don't you want to find out how far we can go? If this God is as big and as grand and as magnificent as we sing about, don't you want to experience that? Yeah. You know you're to experience that? Yeah. You know you're not okay with living life like this. Like you, a lot of us know that and sometimes we just need to be reminded.

We got one. One life. That's it. It's so funny and this is not, this may shift the conversation a little bit and I don't even know where it's headed but I feel like it's something I need to say. I don't know when this is going to air for other people but right now in my life, it's February.

We're preparing to go on the road for the In Real Life Tour. And I think I've been so focused on like trying to figure out where are people right now? Like what does the real life look like for many people from different vantage points, whether it's what's happening in the headlines, what's happening in the personal lives of the people I know, what are they leaving in my DMs?

What does real life look like? And I really do feel like I'd been so bogged down in the reality of what their real life looks like that I missed on what, and God just gave it to me and I'm glad he gave it to me before we went on the road. Like I feel like God's giving me the message about how his plan, his power, his vision, his perspective on our lives have to infiltrate our real lives if we're going to see change. And I think when you start talking about how far we can go, if this God is who our God is, who we have discovered him to be, who generations have said he was. Yes, this is our real life.

Yes, this may be your reality, but also this does not have to be your destination. You still have air in your lungs. And so what is the destiny connected to this moment? And I feel like that is the mandate that each of us must answer in this moment, in this generation, in this era of what's happening in the world is like, yes, this is real, but God can work in this real life moment. And I feel like there's just an infiltration

and integration that must take place where we're trusting, where we're seeing the reality, but also infusing it with the power and authority of God's sovereignty over it all. Yeah, absolutely. And for many of us, I think a lot of what I'm seeing is like, people are beginning to realize like, I cannot have a greater investment in the circumstances than I do in my relationship with God.

Yeah. Because you will just be perpetually disappointed. And so I just feel and see this great emotional, mental, spiritual divestment and reinvestment into like, okay, what do I need? Because I can't wait on the world to treat me with dignity. I can't wait on the circumstances to make me with dignity. I can't wait on the circumstances to make me feel good. I can't wait on the job. I can't wait on the relationship. I can't wait on the perfect friendship.

If nothing changes out here, what am I going to do? How am I going to show up? And what do I feel called to do? Because I think a lot of people feel right now helpless. And as much as that doesn't feel good, that is such a great place for therapists. Because I tell my clients, whether you believe in my God, whether you're a Christian or not, it requires faith to believe that you can heal, period. It requires faith to believe that you can become something that you've never been before, right? And to work

towards that step by step. And I think a lot of people are reigniting their faith because the circumstances have perpetually, if you are a millennial or anything close to it, all we've known is tragedy, truly. Like from elementary school to now, like every expectation we were taught to put our hope in has fallen short.

And I actually think that has allowed the power of God to be so clearly taken a hold of for many people because it's like, I cannot wait. Y'all tell me how's the market this, the eds price. I don't know what's going to happen, but I know I have to stick with something that's sturdy and that's the power of God. It is. And I just, I love that this crisis is creating a platform for us to experience the faithfulness of God for our generation.

As I look at what's happening in the world, you know, I think it's easy to go into fear as like the initial reaction, but there's a part of me that feels so courageous and determined. We hear about all of these historical legends, whether we're talking about the civil rights movement or slavery or the Holocaust or World War. This is not the first time that humanity has faced challenges and difficulties that felt insurmountable.

This is our turn. And if this is our turn, what will our response be? If the whole world, as we know it falls apart and becomes something we've never seen before, can we trust that in the midst of it all, that we will be okay? Like as long as I am connected to Jesus, as long as I understand where my true rest is,

where my true peace is, where my true comfort is, then I will not be so invested in making sure the world stays the same as much as I am committed to changing the world as the world changes. You know what I mean? Like we gotta be willing to change the world as the world changes. And I feel I mean? We got to be willing to change the world as the world changes. And I feel like so too many of us are just watching the world change and wondering where

we're going to fit in the change. But we have to respond to the change with kingdom decisions, kingdom healing. And I just feel like the work you're doing is so critical in snapping people to attention. And by coming to attention, I don't even mean like this fight, you know what I mean? Because I think we're like, okay, if I got to come to attention, I got to put on my gloves and get in the ring sometimes. But sometimes it's being one with your body.

It's taking the time to assess what you need in this changing world. And I just don't think that we will survive it without being fully present. Yeah. And it's brought us back to the basics. Am I meeting my everyday basic needs? Am I connected to other like-minded people who encourage me? People are really asking, as much

as we call it the digital age, people are hungry to be in person. For sure. I want to breathe the same air as people are hungry to be in person. For sure. You know, like, I want to breathe the same air as you. I want to look you in the eye. I want to give you a hug. I want to hold your hand. I want to just sit and look and talk to you.

And I think a lot of people are realizing the world will not take care of you. You got to take care of you. Yeah. Ah, the world will not take care of you. Okay. I want to know, because we're talking about exploring the impossible, Yeah. The world will not take care of you. Okay. I want to know, because we're talking about exploring the impossible, what do you feel

like exploring the impossible means in the context of mental health and healing? I would bring it back to play. I think a lot of us think we've outgrown the ability to experience a level of joy. But it's just too childlike to get excited. we've outgrown the ability to experience a level of joy. But it's like, it's just like too childlike to get excited. It's too childlike to be silly. It's too, you know, and it just makes me think of, you know, when the word says, like, if you don't receive the kingdom of God, like a child, you won't receive it at all.

Like that there is an awe and wonder of life, of yourself, of God. And I think for a lot of us, we are wondering when we'll feel like the version of us we feel called to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I think that you just get to decide if you're going to step into being that person. Yeah. And when you step into being that person, if joy is not a part of an equation, it's going to be something that weighs you down. You know, like if you want to be an incredibly strong person who also can't laugh until you cry, like that sounds a little bit like a prison.

Yeah. You know, and I think that many of us are looking for, we're waiting. Like I think a lot of us still feel like kids and adult bodies. Sometimes I feel that way. I'm like, I still remember what my seventh birthday cake tastes like, you know? I really do. And so there's this feeling that at some point I'm going to feel grown, I'm going to feel courageous,

and then I'll, you know, do the thing. But realizing that like, you really have to make a decision to say, this is who I am. God has given me the agency and the ability to take actions, to step into the vision He showed me. And I get to decide every day if I'm going to do that or not. And for many of us, it means pretending. Pretend, there's a reason why as children,

one of the first ways we play is to pretend. You know, and not to pretend so that we are lying or putting on, but pretending as in we're trying, I'm trying on what it means to be courageous today. I like that. I'm going to try it on again tomorrow. I like that. I'm going to try it on again tomorrow. I like that, I'm going to try it on again tomorrow.

Until one day it becomes what you wear every day and you don't have to take it on and put it off. You know? That's what I found to be true of myself and for my clients. They're like, I'd be like, pretend you're that person who sets boundaries. Just pretend.

What would you say? They're like, I would say, and it's like, there's a reason why I didn't have to give you the words. As soon as I said pretend, as soon as I told you take off your preconceived notions, you knew exactly what you needed to say. You knew exactly what you wanted.

And you get to do that in real life. You get to say, you know what, I want to be the person who raises their hand in church and cries. I'm just going to do it, you know, and try it on for a day and see what it feels like and then try it on for a day and see what it feels like and then try it on again. That is so good to me. That's OK. I have to tell you about something later when we're not recording, because I feel like it fits perfectly into a conversation we're having.

I'm wondering, I follow you on social media. I see that you are not just connecting with your clients via Zoom. They're not just sitting across from you, that you are not just connecting with your clients via Zoom. They're not just sitting across from you. That you are creating intentional spaces for transformation through therapy, through retreats and even media consulting. So I am wondering like, what gave you the courage to say, I could just keep it here at the what I've seen done before, or what could be the most easiest part or the easiest task to accomplish as it relates to me, utilizing this gift God has given me,

or I could allow it to multiply and be magnified through other mediums. How did you get the courage to move beyond the therapy room? Well, I think that sometimes you change because you want to, and I think that's what like mature people do, but sometimes you change because you want to, and I think that's what like mature people do. But sometimes you change because you literally feel like you're suffocating in the life that you have.

And you just feel like there's a part of you that God's created on the inside that is not getting an opportunity to come out. It's like there's no release valve. And I'm a really, I feel like I'm a really creative person. I get, I mean, my clients see me online and they're like, you're silly. And I'm like, yes.

You know, because in session I'm like leaned in and I'm shutting the tear with you. And I think that I got to a point, well, you know what, let me tell the truth. Let me tell, I mean, I wasn't lying before, but let me tell the truth, the whole truth. The moment that changed my life, I had a traumatic birth with my oldest son Levi.

I almost died. And the doctors came in, it wasn't like, oh, it was really bad. Like the doctors came in with this little blue book, which is a portable will. And they said, you and Kyle need to have this discussion right now. And I remember looking at Kyle,

looking at this little blue book, and thinking to myself, I could die any moment. This could be the last room I ever see. And if I go, you are not going with me. And in the best way possible, God created a monster. I just decided like, there's no way that the rules that the world has imposed on me are real. You telling me, I just remember it saying like, what song would you like to be played?

Wow. When I tell you that woke me up, I was like, I, you know, it saved my, my, my spirit, like my life. It saved my marriage. It saved my friendships because I realized like, oh, I can't pretend anymore. If something is in me, it's because it was designed to come out. So when it comes to like the other wellness work I do, I just said, if I say I am that thing, then I am that thing.

I know that sounds so crazy, but I was like, I want to work with, I remember telling my husband, I said, I want to work with people who are high achievers. I've had a couple clients who are high achievers and I noticed that they're not afraid of hard work, that quitting is never an option for them, and I see trauma recovery expedited for them.

And that is rewarding for me, and I can see how it's rewarding for them. So I literally was like, I think I only want to work with high-achieving people. And so I just started working with high-achieving people. You know, it just was, now my entire caseload right now is what I call public facing professionals, people who are singers, actors, entertainers.

That's my entire caseload except for a couple, because I was like, oh, I want to do that. And instead of being like, oh, how do I, I was like, all right, this is what I do, guys. It's on the website. I, you like, and I think moments like that, now get a credential, get training on the thing, but I was like, there's no certificate you can give me to give me permission.

Like, the permission is that I have breath in my lungs. That's permission enough. You know, and so I just decided, like, how do I reach people in a way that reflects who God has created me to be? And so I just decided, how do I reach people in a way that reflects who God has created me to be? And so I started doing that. I just started consulting for books and productions. I got to go on tour with you. And it was just one of those things where I was like, I can do this. I can take this gift wherever God lets me take it.

And I remember in prayer, God gave me like this analogy, because you know when you're a new believer, you feel like you would hear the Lord all the time, you're like, God said, God said. And then you get to a place where you get a little more mature and you don't hear the voice of God as clearly and quickly, right? I feel like when I hear God's voice, it is like a little,

it's like your mom saying your full name type situation. Right, right, right. And I was like, God, I feel like you're distant from me. I feel like I can't hear you. And the Lord said two things. He said, it's because sanctification works. I don't have to talk to you. I don't have to intervene as much

because you are being made into my image, which means your natural desires are aligning with who I am, which means I don't have to intervene as much because you are being made into my image, which means your natural desires are aligning with who I am, which means I don't have to intervene as much, right? Now he still does intervene, let me make that clear. Right, right, right. So that's one. And then two, he said, a guide dog only barks when you're in danger.

Like, and the guide dog is always walking like a little bit in front of like the person who needs that assistance and it's like, they're circumspectful. And the Lord was like, go, just go. If you're in the wrong space, I will bark. If you're in the wrong position, if you're having the wrong conversation, if you're with the wrong person, if you're in the like, and it gave me so much freedom because then it brought me back to Genesis

that God's orientation when he gives Adam and Eve the directive not to eat the fruit, his orientation was freedom, not limitations. He says you are free to eat, right? And then he sets limitation. So like freedom is the foundation and the limitations are meant to protect the freedom. Yeah. And so just remembering that like I'm free to go and if God doesn't want me somewhere, He will but He loves me enough that He will bark in it. If for whatever reason I can't hear it, I got a husband who hears from the Lord, I got a sister who hears from the Lord, I got some old ladies at church that don't play, you know? So just

decreasing that anxiety and saying, I truly, I mean, my lease says this and it stuck with me. I belong everywhere. Yeah. Except for the places I've been delivered from. Except for the places I've been delivered from. Now, don't get going to the places you know. Go ahead and unpack that Spend the Night Bag. Because not you belong there. But I belong everywhere. There's no place I belong. I'm You can go to them places, you know. Go ahead and unpack that Spend the Night bag. You don't belong there.

But I belong everywhere. There's no place, there's no limitation. Just because someone hasn't done it doesn't mean I can't be the first. I wanted to, I think that what you said is so good about sanctification working and as really trusting that God will make sure that we are moving in the direction of His will,

His purpose for our lives, and that we're not playing in the fire. I do think that we have to caution people who are becoming numb or desensitized. Yes. Spiritually, emotionally, mentally, they can't even pinpoint it. They just don't feel like themselves anymore.

And as a result, our concern that they aren't even hearing from God because they are so numb. Because I think that that happens. Whether you have like an avoidant personality or just life gets hard and you start shutting down. Can we talk a little bit about how we shut down and how that keeps us from maybe hearing that barking or hearing those directions as we're navigating life?

Yeah, you know, it makes me think of the trauma responses. Fight, flight, freeze, and then there's spawn and fold, right? So the numbness could be freeze. It could be a momentary, oh my gosh, I'm stuck, I don't know what to do, but the numbness could also be fold, which is when your nervous system is absolutely shot. People don't just become numb,

they become overwhelmed and then they check out, right? Or they become overstimulated and even when they want to be present, responsive, they can't be, right? Or they become overstimulated and even when they want to be present, responsive, they can't be, right? And I think that it's important for us to remember that, like, if you're numb, it's because something has been happening for a really long time. Yeah. And numbness is a protective way for us to engage with the world. And some people are afraid to step out of numbness because they know what's on the other side of it, which

is the thing that they were running from in the first place or the thing that their nervous system couldn't handle in the first place. And I often sense that people who are numb, yes, are numb in the way that they can hear the barking, they just don't have the will or the ability to respond to it. Oh, okay, okay.

Does that make sense? They're like, it's almost like they can sense something's happening, but they don't have the energy, the will to come up into their bodies and respond to it, because to respond to it means to allow yourself to be affected by it. And so they kind of draw in towards themselves. Every numbness that I have come out of, any numbness that I've seen a client come out of,

has not simply been because they've worked their way out of numbness or like they did the right thing. It's always because someone came to them. Someone came to them whether it is a sermon they heard on YouTube, whether it's a song, whether it's a person. You know I think about King David. You know like he he was numb. He was numb to a lot of conditions. He was outside and outside and the barking wasn't barking. Listen, the dogs was barking all night long

and he didn't hear a thing, right? But you know, when the prophet comes to him, he hears, right? And that's also like, this is a little bit of a twist, but like that's also why storytelling is so powerful, that we get to engage with the principles of a thing without having to deal with being emotionally invested with the details of our personal story.

Right. Right. And that's also why I think art is a really powerful way to cut through numbness. Yeah. You know, watch a movie. I like to do with my clients, bibliotherapy. I might send them a book that, You know, watch a movie. I like to do with my clients, bibliotherapy. I might send them a book that, you know, oh, it's just really interesting. It just touches on some subjects and it really touches on the story of their life, but in

someone else's life in a way that they can engage in a way that feels safe in a way that gives them that capacity. And so if someone feels numb and feels like, I can't hear God barking. First of all, if your numbness means you can't hear God, but you don't want to be in God's presence and you're running away, you might just be avoided. You know what I'm saying? You might just not want to hear God. Because sometimes we say we're numb, but like, okay, then let's put on some worship music.

And then we're like, no, no, no, I don't want to listen to worship music. And it's like, you're not just numb, you're resistant. And that's not a bad thing. That's not a character flaw. It just means that there's something about God. And you said this, a woman of all, I wrote this down, God, yoke me up with it. Like, there's something that you need to believe about God that you have not yet believed yet. And maybe we start there instead of trying to get you

to be un-numbed first. You know, I really, there's something that you need to believe about God that you haven't yet learned to believe. It just reads my mail every day. What? It opens it right up. Not addressed to you, yet here you are.

Here we are. I do feel like that is an invitation that each of us get to accept or decline. I'm going to say every day that there is something that we get to believe about God that maybe we're learning again or learning for the first time. But man, how much better are we when we truly lean into just how all-encompassing He really is. Like, I don't think we'll ever experience the faithfulness of God without offering Him our faithfulness, too. You know?

Like, I'll figure out who you are in a divorce, who you are in a transition, who you are as I'm in school and I'll learn something about you that will become a part of my belief system for something in the future. I think that's the invitation of walking with Jesus that I just, I feel like we miss it sometimes in faith spaces and making sure that we're extending that invitation. Not just, you know, you're going to be saved from hell and saved from sin, but like, there is this beautiful invitation of partnership,

companionship, compassion, peace, power that is consistently available to you if you are willing to be as faithful to Him as you are as He is to you and that exchange is just amazing. That wasn't even a question but I just feel like that invitation is something worth being highlighted. It's so true. It's so real. When I felt like I didn't really know where I was in my faith, I used to kneel in prayer. And no joke in my prayer, I just felt like the Holy Spirit rubbing my back. Just felt like this warmth on my back. And it was a reminder that I can go into the presence of God simply to receive.

Like I don't always have to have a list or like an intense prayer point or something I need to carry over or something I need to cast out. Like I can just go be with God. That's why I love contemplative prayer. That's why I love breath prayer. That's why I love just like, I am just like, acknowledging that I get to be in your presence and that's beautiful and that's good. And I think a lot of that I'm missing that because the chaos of the world, the chaos of our personal experience,

sometimes the chaos of our internal world and narrative tells us that something always has to be done. But like God opposes the way of the world by saying like, I just want to be with you. And maybe being with me will fill you up to the point that you feel compelled to do. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's all. Kobe Campbell, ladies and gentlemen. That's all. Kobe Campbell, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you, Kobe. You're always a gift. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. Now if this episode didn't make you want to sit down and unpack some things, Chad, I don't know what will. Kobe has reminded us that healing isn't just a possibility. It's our birthright. And I think it's important that you remember that you don't have to stay stuck in cycles. You don't have to carry what God never intended for you to hold. And you don't have to figure it out alone. Now, if this conversation is

speaking to you, pass it on to someone who needs the reminder that wholeness is theirs for the taking to. And listen, if you haven't already grabbed a copy of Kobe's book, why am I like this is one of those books that will have you side eyeing your past and healing boldly into your future. Thank you Kobe for taking the time to sit with us at the woman evolve podcast. I cannot wait to see what God continues to do in and through your life. Lord, I thank you so much for the ability to experience healing, love, comfort, wellness,

wholeness through you. I thank you God that you quite literally make it possible for us to evolve into more complex creatures that we don't have to live our lives segmented, that I'm just my past or I'm just my achievements, but rather we get to be a combination of it all. So God, I'm praying that as this episode ends, that you would allow those who are listening to grab all of the pieces that they have left scattered, that may be life shattered, and allow them to see how you desire to cause all things

to work together for their good. May they love you more deeply and answer your call with boldness so that they can experience your incredible tapestry that you have in mind when you look at their lives. Thank you God for this time together. Bless them. Bless us. Bless their week. And thank you God for all of the things that you have in store for us.

Keep our eyes open to receive them in Jesus' name, amen. Evolve.