Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Faith for Hard Seasons with Christine Caine

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

The gospel has always been rogue. Faith is predicated on trust, not understanding. And dying to self will never go out of style. This episode right here ate down! Sarah Jakes Roberts sits down with mentor, evangelist, and A21 founder Christine Caine to talk passing the baton of faith, stewarding influence, the danger of building for the wrong reasons, and why everyone who is serious about their calling must regularly audit the condition of their heart before God. Drawing from her book, The Faith to Flourish, Christine closes with an urgent, hopeful call: stop waiting for the world to get better before you start living fully, sis . Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/evolve   #rulapod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up family? This is your girl. Sarah Jakes Roberts and you are listening or watching the Woman Evolve podcast and I'm coming to you. Still a neck brace queen. If you miss last week's episode, go back. I kind of explain why I am in this situation. But for those of you who already know, just know that like I am not back to my regularly scheduled programming, but I can sit with a microphone. phone and a camera in front of me and continue sending you all, all of this content, sharing with you all of this content that we kind of batch created before I had my accident. So, interesting thing, those of you have been tuned into the Woman Evolve podcast, you've probably, man, this podcast started in 2018. I know in a world where it seems like everyone just keeps grabbing a microphone that maybe it's like, oh, Sarah started a podcast. Sarah started a podcast in 2018 in my office in Denver, Colorado, and then my closet in California.

And it has evolved and grown. And we had just gotten to a stage where we're like, okay, you know, we were doing our interviews on Zoom. And we got into a space where it's like, hey, we can, if we schedule this properly, we can like batch record a bunch of episodes. We can do it in person. And in person can have a different chemistry, different production values. you're doing it via Zoom. And so we just figured that out. And then, of course, I ended up in this next grade situation. So that has slowed things down a little bit. But we have the content. We had some amazing conversations with amazing women. And so we are pivoting, shifting to match what's

possible for us now. Which reminds me that May is Mental Health Awareness Month. And of course, had my life, had my May started a little bit differently, I would have been giving you all some thoughts from the very top of the month, but I at least want to share with you, one of the things that is helping me with my mental health through this situation, because I know that I have days where I'm like, oh, you know, I'm resting, my body really needed the rest, I'm reflecting, I'm writing, I'm having devotional time with God, and then I'm having moments where I'm kind of grieving that I can't show up in the way that I'm used to showing up. And I was talking to my husband about my mental health the other day. And I just basically shared with him that I think

one of the things that I am having to do is I am having to adjust my definition of what it means to have a good day. And I think that that is necessary in order for me to maintain my mental health and balance my mental health at a time where I know it's taking a toll. I say adjust because, you know, before a good day was, oh, I got up. I worked out. The kids were on school on time. I had productive meetings. I prep for my sermon. I did my homework. You know, I ate well. I did. I organize things, like all of these things that my body could do that it can't do now. And I could say, oh, I didn't have a good day today because I didn't hit those marks that I'm used to hitting. Or I can say for today based on the condition I am in and the options that are available to me, I had a good day.

And for me, that's not minimizing or reducing my capabilities. it's accepting my reality. And then accepting my reality, also seeing that there can be goodness and productivity and wellness, even in a different state. And I think about all of the times my life has had different transitions

from maybe being a mom to being a student, to having a new baby or moving to a new city and being in a new marriage or being divorced and living by myself. I've had all of these different

shifts and transitions that have happened in my life. And if I hold the standard, if I hold my standard for what's good, if I hold my standard for what's worthy of celebration based off of previous capabilities that I possess, then I can find myself feeling really down and depressed. But accepting that I did what I could today within what was available to me. And to call it good has helped me throughout this process, especially in the moments. Because when I start to feel sad, a lot of times I'm feeling sad because I'm comparing it to what I used to be able to do and come into a place where I'm like, okay, I can't do those things anymore. But for what I can do, I did the best I could today. And I'm satisfied with that. And it was a good day. And so if you are

navigating a shift in your life, you're navigating mental health in a way that feels foreign based off of your experiences and your current circumstances. I just want to invite you into something that's working for me. What's interesting is, so in addition to me pursuing my bachelor's at Penn State, I've never mentioned where I go to school. So anyways, I'm at Penn State. I'm also taking a year-long certificate program at Princeton Theological Seminary. And one of the courses that I'm currently in is about faith and mental health. And it's been, an incredible exploration about what it means for people in pastoral or ministry positions to show up for people who are experiencing mental health challenges, crisis, or illness.

And I just want to say that as I've taken this course, I've really, one, been challenged to be very, I've tried to be intentional with my languages. It relates to mental health, mental illnesses. but I feel so much more informed about how I can show up with the knowledge that I have while honoring the knowledge that I don't possess about what it means to experience mental illness. But, oh, can I just share with you one of these things? And then I'm going to mind your business because certainly you've been minding mine. One of the things that really stood out to me is that in environments of faith in church, a lot of times our conversations, as it relates to mental illness, it centers around deliverance, deliverance, and really wanting to see people be free. And I think that there's a good intention in that, but when people don't experience that deliverance instantaneously, one of the things that I feel like this course is really challenging.

me with is like what does that mean about God's ability to meet them? And one of the books that we're reading is finding Jesus in the storm. And it's like, can God only meet me when my mental health is an optimal condition? Or is there a world where I'm dealing with bipolar? I'm dealing with depression. I'm dealing with schizophrenia. And I can still have an encounter with Jesus or experience God's presence in the midst of that. And what does that look like? And what is my responsibility as a pastor? and serving them to get the support and the help that they need while also making sure that I don't isolate their ability to experience God to moments where they're experiencing optimal mental health.

And so I've been marinating on that a little bit and just considering the role that I play in serving what I know God wants to see happen in the lives of all of his children, which is ultimately reconciliation and connection. and that reconciliation, I truly do believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God. And so how can I show the love of God for those who may be experiencing the symptoms of living under certain diagnosis and description? So I don't know if that was boring for anyone, but maybe you're listening and you have a mental

illness and you're trying to figure out what it looks like for you to maintain your relationship with God while walking out this mental illness. and maybe you feel like, hey, you know, if I'm not delivered, then maybe I'm not experiencing or not eligible to have an encounter with God. And I just want you to know that really is a lie that is meant to isolate you and make you feel less known and seen and that there are people like me. And I have classmates as well that are seeking ways to show up for those who are still in the middle of storms to help you feel less alone and to help you feel less isolated.

And I just pray that this finds you at a time that you needed the most and that it is a reminder that the love of God is chasing after you, even as you're navigating these moments where your body feels foreign to you or your mind feels foreign to you. And I feel it's necessary for you to know that there are people who are trying to learn what it means to stand in the gap with you and for you. And I pray that as I continue to become informed, as I continue to gain knowledge and wisdom, not just from the courses, but from the Holy Spirit, that you will continue to seek places like woman evolve and other places that God is curating to help you navigate these storms. Okay, I want to hop into this week's Mind Your Business question because I feel like it aligns so well with the realities of navigating. mental health and trying to hang on to yourself in the midst of it all. So let's get into it.

Hey, so I appreciate you. I've been listening to you in the podcast and the amazing one and you bring on this podcast and bring into our lives. And then I go and follow all of them on Instagram so that they could stay in my feed. And I always thought that I would call when I was at my wits end and crying and broken, but what's happening is I'm getting what I prayed for. And it's so heavy. It's so big. And I don't really understand what to do. I work in marketing.

And I'm a writer. I write music. I write poetry. And I've just been so tired, so burnt out, airying everybody else. And I finally got to the place where I was like, let me just try something for myself. And God did what he always does, and he showed up. But he showed up really big. And now got all these people reaching out and asking questions and inviting me to things

and asking for commissions. and that's supposed to be a beautiful thing. I should be excited. But I'm realizing I never recovered from my burnout. I never recovered from my depression. I never recovered from getting sick. So all this attention, all these requests, they just make me want to run.

I don't want to fumble what I prayed for or the gifts he gave me. and I'm honored. I'm honored to be seen for them. But I don't know what to do. I'm always tired. And I have tried crying to God. I have tried screaming help. I don't know what else to do.

He gave me this beautiful thing and he expects me to use it. But I am so overwhelmed by just the day to day. I am so exhausted by just the day to day. Even the process of discernment is exhausting. And I don't know what to pray to tell him. Don't want to mess this up, but I need help doing the thing that I asked for permission to do. I just feel so numb. And every day feels like I'm back on the wheel of stress.

and anxiety and being overwhelmed and sprawling across the finish line. And it feels so selfish because of a God who showed up for me and keeps showing up for me. And I don't want to disappoint him. This question, man, I can just hear, I don't even, I can just hear in your voice

the stress, the strain, the honor the desire and the integrity in your voice. And I can really, really relate to so much of what you have unpacked. And the Lord has really been highlighting the life of Elijah for me. And this episode with Kristen Kane is really going to bless you. But man, I don't know if I want to start by just unpacking the way that I can relate or just jumping right into Elijah. but I will say that sometimes the only thing more challenging than experiencing failure is experiencing success that you don't feel like you have the capacity to navigate. And I was thinking about Elijah in this because in First Kings 17, First Kings 18, Elijah is a prophet of God who is existing at a time.

where the people of Israel are not following in the ordinances and the laws and the commandments of God. And so I'm trying to make this succinct, but also as thorough as possible to help you really understand what Elijah was up against. And so God calls to himself this special group of people and he says, you're going to be my people. I'm going to make a nation out of you. All you have to do is follow these rules. And so he gives them the rules. He delivers them out of oppression. He gives them a land. But what happens is the more that he establishes them as a nation, they still have to live amongst other nations. And when they see what other nations are doing, how other nations worship, how other nations marry, and that the laws are different. They find themselves compromising the laws that God have

given them in order to fit in within the culture that they are surrounded by. and time and time again throughout scripture, we see God calling a prophet or a judge or a mouthpiece to himself and to declare an opportunity for repentance, to call his people back to him and to remind his people of his power and his ways and why they can trust him following him.

And Elijah is that mouthpiece at this time in 1st Kings 18. First Kings 18, he's having a battle with the other gods that are being worshipped at the time that the people of Israel keep falling away. And so he's trying to have a showdown to show them who the one and only true God is and that they can trust him and that none of these other gods are as powerful as him. And so he has this big moment, this huge showdown in First Kings 18, where he tells them, you know, you call on the name of your gods, I'm going to call on the name of my God and we're going

to see who responds by fire. And so they have this battle back and forth. shows up and shows out and the wet wood burns. It's like a whole thing. So you can read First Kings 18. If you're like trying to get deeper into your word and you're just like, man, I don't know where to start. Maybe having a little bit of that context will help you as you dive in the First Kings 18. And he's successful and it is amazing. And he overcomes these other gods. And so he is experiencing success. And then in First Kings 19, we see that word of his success has gotten out. And Elijah's probably thinking to himself, if I have this showdown,

these other gods, then it's going to send a sign to the people, the people are going to come back to God, the people who represent these other gods are going to get a revelation, they're going to get somewhere and sat down, but it doesn't work that way. All he does is piss the people off even more. And so now it's like I was successful, but now I'm not able to live in this place of rest based off of my success, I'm going to have to work even harder. I'm going to have to maybe have another showdown. Like the cost of success is more responsibility. And Elijah is tired. He is so tired because we don't talk about the reality that success often brings more responsibility. And when we find him in First Kings 19, he's like on the run. He's like, you know what? Forget it. You know,

now they're going to try and kill me now that people didn't even bow down and turn back to you in the way that they were supposed to and he goes on the run and he tells the lord literally you talk about mental health it could be argued and the text kind of speaks very plainly that at this point in his life he does not want to live anymore in first kings 19 he literally says it is enough now lord take my life for i am no better than my father's he is stressed He is frustrated. He is upset. He's literally saying, Lord, take my life. What I have experienced right now is too much for me to bear. I can't handle it anymore. And look at what the Lord says. The Lord says, then as he lay and slept under a broomtreen, suddenly an angel touched him and said to him, arise and eat. And so the Lord doesn't come to him and he doesn't say, you know, oh, I got your back. I'm going to do this. And they go realize they mess with the wrong one. Like when I get finished, it's. going to be he doesn't say any of those things a lot of times in church that's like our immediate response like you're going to be fine and the guy when god gets finished he's going to get the glory the lord doesn't do any of this the lord says arise and eat that's all he says the first time arise and eat he got elijah lays down and go to sleep and the lord the angel touches him and says hey here's something to eat and then he looked and there was by his head there was a cake baked and coals and the angel the lord

And so he ate and Dracon laid down again. And so the Lord didn't ask anything of him in his moment of stress, but to wake up, to eat, and then he allowed him to rest again. There are moments where we want to continue honoring God, even when physically, emotionally, mentally, we don't have the capacity to do it, but because we don't want to disappoint God, because we see God sometimes as a taskmaster.

There are moments when we are so, when we are emotionally, physically, mentally, incapable of showing up in the way that we have been showing up. And because we see God as our taskmaster, because we judge our worthiness on how much we are able to do for God, it's difficult for us to believe that there are moments where the Lord doesn't want anything of us. He just wants us to rest in his presence to breathe and relax. And so he offers this moment to Elijah. I say this to you because in the midst of you trying to make sure that you don't disappoint God, in the midst of trying to make sure that you are a good steward over all that God is giving you, there are going to be moments where you need to rest. And this is where the true test of faith comes in.

The true test of faith is not, Lord, how do I make sure that I execute everything you give me? Sometimes the true test of faith is God. How do I trust that I can take care of myself as a vessel, that you care about me more than you care about what I do? And that what is for me cannot miss me when I honor the first desire of my heart, which is to be in relationship with you, to be in connection with you and to receive your love. If we are not careful, we will fall into the trap of believing that our ability to maintain, God's love and adoration comes down to what we do. If we get into that space, then our relationship with God is predicated on our works and not by faith. And we will fool ourselves to believing that we worked our way into receiving the different blessings and opportunities for God instead of resting our way into it, that we believed our way into it and that God made up the difference in God did the rest, not because I did it in my own mind and my own strength, but because God took care of it.

And so I hope that's a little bit of spiritual framing to undergird where you are right now to give yourself permission to say I don't have what it takes. I need a minute. Like I really wish that I could like gas you up and be like, girl, you got this and you do. But you got to make sure you got you and you can see God clearly first. Because if you don't got you and you can see God clearly first, then you you ain't got it the way you think you got it. Right. So I want to say that.

And then I just want to say from a practical level, I just want to make sure that, and this is where I am having to challenge myself, is that you are being responsible in acknowledging the ways that you can no longer facilitate your purpose. and when we experience growth, it may require us to shift the way that we have done things that afforded us to be in the position to have growth. And so when Womeneyvall first started, there were many things, everything that I did on my own. the website building, the registration for conference, the customer service, the reaching out to speak like, I had to ask for help as it began to grow, but I needed to ask for help because if I continued to say, no, this is how I started, this is what has allowed it to be successful, I have to maintain that same recipe as it grows, then I would have eventually suffered because things

would have fallen through the cracks. I would have been stressed. I would have been overwhelmed. When you are in a place of leadership, I think the greatest gift that you can give your call, your mission, the vision that God has given you is knowing when you need support, knowing when you can no longer do things that you once did. Your job is to protect the vision, to run quality control on the vision, but it may not be your job to execute every portion of the vision. And so I want you to begin asking yourself on a practical level, am I doing anything in this moment that could be outsourced? Am I doing anything in this moment that I could ask someone else to do?

Being mindful of the fact that for me when I first started, I didn't always have the budget to accommodate the needs that I had. So I was asking my children. I was asking my friends. I was asking anyone who said, hey, if you need a little bit of help, I'm here for you. And I would give them tasks that took things off of my plate but didn't overwhelm their plate.

And you have to trust that you're asking people who have enough integrity to be honest about what they can or cannot handle. And if you don't know whether or not they have enough integrity to be honest about what they have the capacity to do for you, then don't be afraid to say like, hey, this is what I need.

Can you check your responsibilities and let me know whether or not this is something that you are able to do and what's a realistic timeline? How long do you need things? Like be mindful of the fact that they're doing you a favor in the midst of all of the other things they have going on in their world, but also try to create enough communication that they're able to be realistic and you're

able to plan accordingly. And so to ask yourself those questions, don't be afraid of becoming more well-versed in technology that could expedite some of your projects and some of your deadlines. It may be overwhelming at first to learn how to use a new tool, but when you're thinking long-term, it may end up saving you time in the long term, even if it requires an initial ample amount of time in order for you to get started. So go lay down. Oh, you know what I love the most about the First Kings 19 narrative

is that when we see this moment where the Lord has this moment with him where he's laying down, he's at his limit, he's breaking down, the Lord's like just arise and eat. He then gives him a, a close. clue into what's next. And so he never acknowledges that, you know, he wants the Lord to end his life. He never acknowledges that he feels frustrated. He doesn't require or demand anything from him. He just meets him in that moment and comforts him and nurtures him and allows him to rest. And then he goes, arise and eat because the journey is too great for you. And the question then becomes, like, what is this journey? So he arose and ate and drank and he went into the shirt that's for 40 days.

And so he's continuing to move little by little. It doesn't tell us exactly when. It just tells us that he started off where he just needed to lay down, eat, lay down and eat. And then the Lord goes, now that you've laid down and eat, there's a journey that I have for you. And so we know that the Lord begins to lead him towards Horib, the mountain of God. And then he gets to that place. And then the Lord asks him, what are you doing here? And it's kind of weird because it's like, Lord, you know, I'm just following your instructions.

How are you asking me how I ended up here? and he asked him repeatedly, what are you doing here? And there's these signs. And I know this isn't fully Bible studies, so I won't completely break it down. But he continues asking, what are you doing here? And then the Lord begins to show him that it wasn't the fact,

I'm trying not to rush through this while also rushing through this. But when the Lord asks him, what is he doing here? He's like, I'll tell you what I'm doing here. I was trying to be very zealous for you. I was out here throwing in bows with anybody who was coming up against your name and was acting crazy because the children of Israel

act like they don't have no good sense and anytime somebody come around with a new toy they start worshiping and bowing down as if they don't remember your covenant and so I had to tear down those altars and then they're trying to kill me, people like me, your prophets who are trying to do what you asking to do

and I'm the only one that's up because I'm the only one here stood on business when everybody else was out here tripping. And so the Lord was like, listen, I know that's what you think. I know you think that that's why you're here but I am telling you that there is a reason why I have brought you to this place

to the mountain of God And the reason is that I want to give you vision and insight, not about how you got here, but ultimately about what is available to you from here. Okay. So it's like the Lord wanted to hear how he got to the place that he got. He wanted to hear it from his perspective. But then he also wanted to let him know that here is a starting place. Ooh, I feel something on that.

Here, sometimes we are so frustrated at where we landed and how we got here and how it has costs us so much and it is taxed us and it has broken us down that we miss out on the opportunity to recognize that here is a starting point. And what we learn about the character of God is when Elijah is at one of the most critical, most devastating moments in his life that the Lord says, you know what? This can be a starting place. And from this starting place, he begins to tell him, I want you to go back to this place. And when you get there, this person's going to be king and this person's going to, you're going to anoint this person. And then there's going to going to be someone that's there to help you. This is a critical moment of change for Elijah because

he's going to go from feeling isolated, burnt out, and that he's in it on his own to allowing himself to have a break, to break down, to break form, to let all of the things fall apart in the pieces land where they may. And then from that place of being honest about where he is, about being willing to let go of everything that he's done, the Lord goes, I still have work for you to do. But this next iteration of work is going to require you to trust other people, to allow other people into your circle, and to be sensitive and discerning. Oh, and you said that your discernment is beginning to fade. You're going to have to be willing to be discerning. And sometimes discernment can only come from the place of rest. And so protect the person, the vessel that carries the vision more than you

are concerned about executing the vision. And the Lord will meet you there. This week's episode and having the opportunity to talk about my own mental health journey while also going through this setback as it relates to my health has reminded me of just how important it is to take care of my mental health. And I don't want you to wait until you're in a season like I am in where you have no other choice but to reflect, but to be proactive as it relates to taking care of your mental health, whether it seems like everything is going fine. or you're so afraid at how un-fined things are that you don't even want to open that can of worms. I think you already know that I believe that taking care of your mental health should be just as important as taking care of your physical health. There have been so many seasons in my life where I just knew I was struggling and I needed someone to talk to, times when I was burnt out like our caller or having heartbreak and anxiety,

or I was just caring too much for too long. And one of the most frustrating parts was having that need, but trying to find a therapist who actually took my insurance. That's why I'm so glad that I am partnering with Rula. I don't want you to have to go through what I went through. And Rula makes finding quality, mental health care, simple, affordable, and personal. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, and the average co-pay is, are you ready for this? It is only about $15 a session. What I love the most about Rula, though, is that they don't just.

throw you with the first available therapist. They take your preferences, your goals, and backgrounds into account so you can find someone who actually fits you. Plus, they have a network of over 15,000 licensed therapist and psychiatrists nationwide with appointments available as soon as tomorrow. Go to Rula.com to get started today. That's rula.com slash evolve for quality therapy that's covered by insurance. Rula is committed to seeing you succeed in reaching your therapy goals, making sure their providers are carefully screened and vetted, monitoring the quality of their care and helping you monitor your progress in therapy.

From therapy to medication management, with its diverse network of licensed, experienced professionals, Rula's therapists and psychiatrists make it easy for you to get the care that you need. thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit rula.com slash evolve to get started today. That's RU-L-A.com slash evolve. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. That was so long, but I hope it blessed you and helped you. And if it didn't, there's no doubt in my mind that this conversation with Christine Kaine is going to be everything that you need, because it blessed me.

Like she was dropping so many bombs in the midst of our conversation that I was like, hold on, I need a minute. Kristen Cain is a wide-ranging, prophetic voice for this generation. She has been a mentor to me. She's been so consistent and affirming. And I just admire,

and I love the conversation that I had, even with Nicole LeVon, if you didn't hear that, you got to hear it. I am at a stage in my life where I am looking at the women who have gone ahead of me to see how they have navigated and survived their relationship with God, their calling, their purpose, and the realities of life and the frustrations and unexpected moments of trauma and chaos that occur in life. And I sat and I just marveled at Christine Payne. was speaking. She's the founder of A-21 and Propel Women, which reflects over 40 years of vocational

ministry. She shares her convictions in a way that make you feel seen and heard, but also empowered to get up and keep going. She's from Australia, which you'll hear with her accent, but she's Greek, and she's just an incredible visionary. She's got a new book called The Faith to Flourish, which I feel like is so time. for where we are in our culture, because right now it doesn't feel like flourishing as possible, only surviving. And yet she offers through this book a reality that when us as believers or us who are just wondering what it means to have belief at a time where life feels unsteady and uncertain that there's an opportunity for us to show up in faith in the midst of it all.

And so I just, I know that this conversation is going to bless you and I can't wait to get into it. So you already know like you're my mentor. I love you. And I so appreciate all the words of wisdom you give me. You really pour into me. I feel like I tell this story all the time, but I'm going to tell again every time. When I first started in ministry,

you know, I wasn't preaching in mostly black spaces. I was in mostly white spaces. And, you know, I didn't really, I was still trying to understand my gift and my delivery. And I feel like God strategically placed me in environments where I wouldn't feel the pressure of being like TDJ's daughter and preaching like TD Jakes when I went into places. And I had the benefit and beauty and honor of meeting you at a time that I was praying for a woman in ministry to be my mentor.

And I never really asked you. How did you, did you know that you were my mentor? Because I never asked you. No, but I was so, I love you so dearly and could see the hand of God on you. And I'm always looking at the next generation. And I, you know, I have two daughters, once 24, one's 20, Catherine and Sophia. and when I see their ear inclined to someone, I take notice. But I also was looking, who has prophetic voices, evangelistic voices?

You know, there are the church, and I've only been in America for, you know, 15 years, but predominantly has been built on pastor, teacher, and yet to grow and expand the church, you need the evangelist and the prophet, you know. And I think you have it all, but I could hear this perfect. prophetic voice coming from you and then this evangelistic, your capacity to connect with people that are lost. That's what grows the church. And so I fell in love with you. I mean, I'm just like this woman and you were so young. Of course, I'm 60, so you like, you know, I could do that. I'm feeling older, especially not from the time when we first met. Well, yes, yes, you've grown from

there, but still I could be your mother. Well and truly. But just to hear the word of the Lord come from your mouth, your humility. I hadn't come across a young woman with so much influence and yet so humble, which is what, it still astounds me about you to this day. Your passion for the Lord unadulterated pursuit of holiness, your humility, characteristics that a lot of people want notoriety and want success as the world would see success and influence, but don't truly hunger and thirst after righteousness and holiness, how the Lord has blessed you to hunger after both is stunning to me. It's stunning to watch, and I thank God for it. And I pray for you every single day. Starting something new isn't just hard. It's downright terrifying. There's so much work that

goes into this thing that you're not entirely sure will work, and it can be hard to make that leap of faith. Trust me, that is something that I am all too familiar with. When I started Womney Evolve, I wasn't even sure what I was doing. And I was thinking, what if no one listens? What if I make a fool of myself? What if no one is even interested in any of the products? Now I know that I was right and believing in myself and launching my business, despite all the fears and hesitations. It also helps when you have a partner like Shopify on your side to help.

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Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash evolve. Go to Shopify.com slash evolve. That's Shopify.com slash evolve. Wow. I appreciate the affirmation that I have received from you as, a woman who's gone ahead of me. And I feel like oftentimes women who are up and coming in any field or sector may feel like the women who've gone ahead of me may be threatened by me. They may not create space for me. Can you talk about like what it takes to be a woman who has achieved and

now you're looking back to see who's coming up behind you? Like what do you what do you have to believe about the mantle, the call in order to make space for another generation? You know, I love I love that question because it's something obviously at my age and stage. I'm thinking about here's the deal, though, from when I started. So I started in full-time vocational ministry in 1990. And how old were you there? Two years old. So while you were still in almost diapers. So you were two. I started in 1990 from the get-go. I was constantly creating pipelines and pathways for other women. Now you've got to go back to 1990, Australia. There were very few, if any, women that were doing what I was doing like I was an evangelist on the road.

preaching and teaching. You know, so I was navigating a whole different landscape. There was no internet. There was no social media. We didn't have a cell phone. It was a different world. But I got, I say this, Sarah, I got save, saved. And I think they're saved and save, saved.

Yeah. So when I got saved, you know, coming from such a background of abandonment, abuse, adoption, rejection, rejection. When Jesus, when I discovered truly that Jesus loved me, forgave me and gave me a brand new life here on earth, not just fire insurance for when I die one day, but here on earth a brand new life. I wanted the whole planet to know of this grace and this mercy and for some reason I had a kingdom mindset from the outset that this was never going to be just about me. I was part of a divine relay. There's a great cloud of witnesses, Hebrew 12 says,

that are saying, come on you go. And for this moment in time, I've got the baton of faith in my hand. My job is to make sure that the baton of faith goes to the next generation. So the very first sermon I preached as the director of, you know, the largest youth movement in Australia at the time. You wouldn't even believe this. It was, to me, the saddest scripture in the Bible, which is judges, she says judges five minutes into a podcast, judges chapter 2 verse 10, which says when Joshua and his

generation died, another generation arose that did not know the Lord, nor the works he had done for Israel. And I remember thinking, we celebrate the success of Joshua, and of course we do, came out of slavery, you know, had faith in the wilderness, went into the promised land, they possessed the promised land, but I thought, I could build the biggest ministry, have all the success, all the KPIs, hit all the KPIs, have all the metrics that everyone says, you know, wow, she's running the largest global anti-trafficking organization in the world, or preachers or teachers. But if another generation arises that does not know the Lord nor the works he's done,

I failed. Because my job is to hand the baton of faith over. And I never wanted to become like Hezekiah, King Hezekiah in Isaiah 39. He's the man that in Isaiah 38 was given 15 more years to live. He had such faith. He was such a man of prayer, such amount of faith, was such a great king, that he reversed a prophecy. Isaiah said, your time's up.

Get your affairs in order. His faith was so great that a prophecy from Isaiah was reversed. God gave him 15 more years, and he squandered those years because he let the Babylonians in, he just became relaxed, didn't care. And Isaiah said, the next generation will be taken into captivity in Babylon. And he said, the thing you've said is good as long as it doesn't happen in my lifetime, and I don't have to. And I thought, two things I never want to happen.

So this is 1990. I don't want a generation to arise that doesn't know the Lord. and I don't want to become a successful older woman that really doesn't care. I'm just going to ride in comfort into glory and not care what happens to your generation. So for the whole 37 years, I've been in full-time vocational ministry with great intentionality. And Nick and I, we serve all over the world on every continent, have been creating pipelines and pathways for women, particularly is my passion. I mean, of course I serve the whole body of Christ, but women and the poor and the people,

the marginalized, have been my passion, I want to make sure that they have access to everything that's theirs in Christ. So if you truly have a revelation of God and know the Holy Spirit, how could you compete and compare? I mean, because God doesn't do next. I'm not looking behind my shoulder going, I better hang on because I mean, oh, here's Sarah Jake's Roberts and she's phenomenal. And at the time when we were doing Propel, I better not put anyone on my platform so that they look better. I mean, you could out preach me with your little finger. But I'm like, I want the world to know because if I'm secure in who I am in Christ, the Lord's always doing a new thing. So I'm always looking for that. He says, behold, I do a new thing. He never says,

behold, I do the next thing. Because we're always looking, I think the secular world is, who's the next, let's just say, like, who's the next Chris Kane, or who's the next Joyce Meyer, or who's the next Sarah Jakes? But the Lord's like, I do one of everything. And I only do a brand new thing. So while you're busy looking for the next. Really what you're saying to me, Christine, is you're looking for a younger version of the same thing, but I've already done that thing. So you're fine, too, you go to glory, Christine. There won't be another Christine Kane. I don't need to look behind to go, who's next? I better hold back. I'm not looking at all, because if I run my race and finish my course, I can only be me till the day I die.

There will be no other me. And there's not going to be a next Chris Kat, Kane, but there is the new thing. So I'm always looking. So when I saw you, it's like, behold, the new thing. And so why would you ever be threatened by the new thing? Because it's God's that's doing the new thing. It's not a person. It's God. And I have too much fear of the Lord.

Too much fear of the Lord to think that I would ever want to quench. The minute I compare, compete or become insecure, I'm functionally irrelevant, truly to the body. I might have a momentum based on what I've done, but there's no anointing. and it's only the anointing that breaks the yokes and chains, not gifting. My gifting will keep me employed till I die, but only the anointing will break yokes and chains,

and I'm interested in people being set free. Chris, the way you just ate, see, I'm not to talk to you like, you know what that means. Chris, when someone comes through and they do something that is like remarkable, exceptional, revolutionary, we say they ate down in the culture. Chris, you just ate down. When I say, everyone's looking for the next,

but God's doing something new. Yeah. That's, I'm going to sit with that for a while. I know, I just, can I go one deeper? Please. You, please. Because you think in 1st Samuel 16 when the Lord sent Samuel to anoint a new king. I have chosen for myself a new king, the Lord said.

So Samuel walks in, so he's the prophet of God. He walks in and it says, and Samuel saw Elieb and thought, this is what we do with social media. We're scrolling, we're swiping. I'm seeing. thinking, who's got the most followers, who's got the best comments, who's got, so you could be a prophet even and get it wrong, because the prophet got it wrong. He sees and thinks, and the Lord said, he's not who I've chosen. You see and think, because what you're seeing in Eliab is a younger version of Saul, because he's good looking like Saul. He's got the same gift mix as Saul, but I never

said I'm going to do the next Saul. I said, I'm doing a new king. And so the father of the house comes and parades the other seven sons. So here's my deal and why I wish people wouldn't try to build their whole ministry on like social media. Man, if someone just discovers me, I'm like, number one, God doesn't need to discover you because he created you. So he knows what he's created you for. So well, the prophet can get it wrong and the father of the house can get it wrong, but God never gets it wrong. So Samuel got it wrong, Jesse got it wrong, but God said, no, no, my new king is out there doing exactly what he should be doing in the back side of the desert. And so when the Lord then said to Samuel, no, no, it's David.

You know, God made them all just stand up and wait until David came. So while we're all scrolling through social media looking for the next big megastar, the Lord's like, no, no, I've got my new thing. So when, you know, people weren't scrolling for you, you still were trying to work out your whole identity. Am I going to do this? Has God called me to do this? I never signed up for this.

I was just trying to help people. I am looking for the new thing. I was never looking for the next of anything. I had, people send me their resumes. They would love to be the next thing. But here is really my lesson, and for what it's worth, I'm older, for a generation. I don't even want resumes. I'm like when Elijah went to get Elisha, the Lord number one told him who it was, but he waited until Elisha burnt his plows before he even took him on the road. And what I've got a generation is they want me to carry their plows for them. And they're not even willing to burn them to say, I'm willing to be all in. See, you were all in. You burnt your plows, and you have plenty of them that you could

have hung on to. But you burnt them and you started coming. So you've sort of positioned yourself. You've never asked anything of me, you've never done, but you've just, you know, that's what I mean by by a humble posture, and your platform is way bigger, your influence is way bigger, but your respect, your honoring of anointing. That's the thing I'm looking for. I'm like someone that can actually recognize that. And I think a generation, while we're busy wanting to be the next anything, we're not cultivating the new thing that God's doing on the inside of us.

So you never then learn to really recognize anointing. And if you don't understand anointing, you cannot navigate this world because your gift will take you to places where you'll get in the same bondage as everyone else because you don't know how to break bondages because you don't know what the anointing is. No, when you started talking about social media and then the generation that wants the influence, they want the platforms, but don't always have the insides required to stand in that level of warfare. What does it take to get to a place where you recognize the anointing and you don't allow the anointing to be shaken by what's happening around? None of that is easy. You have to, and that's a daily intimacy with the Lord. You know,

I've said a thousand times that if the light that is on you is greater than the light of Christ that's being developed within you, that light will destroy you 100% of the time. So I've watched it in almost four decades of vocational ministry and I've been amongst the greatest of the greatest, you know, on platforms all over the world. And people that started with this genuine heart for God, but then got more enamored with that light than obsessed with this light. Yeah. So I've just never lost my longing for this light.

Now, here's some of the benefit of being me. There's nothing cool. I have nothing going for me but the anointing. So, you know, my spiritual mum is Joyce Meyer. She's 83. And she has kept me on track. And, you know, I'm leaving you to go and spend another day with her. I get any moment I can with her in, because I learn more in a minute of this, of how never

to get enamored by that. and she's still to this day, wakes up at 4.30 in the morning, the first thing, she's in the word, she's praying. I mean, if anyone has probably got half the Bible memorized and, you know, could do it, but it is, and she said it to me very early on, and it's stuck with me. She said, Christine, I've got nothing else. Like, and I've got nothing else. Like, I'm not cool. I can't, like, I can't break out in a dance. I can't break out in a song. I don't even have your lung capacity to be able to preach that great. It's like if I'm not anointed, I need God so desperately that the fear of not having that is greater than the seduction of that light for me. So for me to step into a space where I don't

feel the anointing of God, I have too much fear of the Lord because not only I don't trust myself, I think it will destroy me. So what we do is we long, we get a lured by, you won't get pulled by that light if this light is guiding you. The light of course. Christ on the inside of you. I don't want to sound new age, but it's the light of, it's that as this light gets brighter, so you've got to cultivate that intimacy with the Lord and be able to say no. Like I will say this, like so this year I'm 60 and just two weeks ago, you know, I was invited into an opportunity that is potentially the greatest opportunity of my life thus far. But I said no, because I just knew that I knew that I knew that it wasn't the Lord.

On the outside, it looks fantastic. But I've learned to listen to that soft still voice greater than anything else. And this thing would take me to another level of impact and influence. But I think without the grace of God and the anointing of God, that thing will destroy me and it's not worth it. And if I listen to this voice, I'm going to impact, I don't even need to have greater or less. I just need to impact the people God's called me to impact on this earth. So, you know, I think sometimes in our pursuit, we always think everything has to be up and to the right. More, more, more, more.

Well, who said more? I need the measure that God's given me. That's what I'm looking for. And so sometimes it's arenas. And sometimes it's one-on-one that nobody sees rescuing a victim of human trafficking in the back of Bulgaria or Thailand. And I don't know which is going to have the greater reward in heaven. That's probably what Joyce has taught me the most. You know, I did a thing with her in India.

and there was about, you know, 250,000 people. It was her event, not me. So, you know, Joyce drew a crowd. And it was powerful. And she got me up to do something at the end. And this is the example always gives Sarah. And, you know, it was amazing. The Lord turned up.

The people went nuts and probably applauded. Yeah, I don't want to exaggerate, but a good solid five, six. It's a very long time to be out with 200. Anyway, Joyce is waiting at the side of the stage. The crowd is going crazy. As I'm walking off, she grabs me and she said, Christine, I hope you really enjoyed all that applause because for all of eternity, that's the only reward you're ever going to. You've just gotten your reward. So I hope you're going to step off this stage to do some things that

nobody sees. So you actually are accumulating some crowns and some rewards in heaven so that you have something. And it just stuck with me that so much of my life is so visible. And those of us and the next generation that is so pursuing a visible life, your reward. every time you're getting that applause, the people are standing up, you're getting that like, you're getting that share, you're getting that follow, enjoy it, because that's it. If we really believe this Bible in light of eternity, and boy, we better be doing some stuff nobody's seeing

that is accumulating some rewards on the other side. You know what I'm struck by what you said? You know where your weaknesses are, where your vulnerabilities are, where the cracks are. I'm thinking about in Genesis where God tells Cain that sin lies at the door. It's like you got to know where your door is. And I feel like part of what I understand about my life now

I think especially we were just talking about me taking my social media break is that I realize that social media, if I don't see it as a tool, it's going to be a meal. And it's going to be how I feed myself. And what I feed myself off will determine whether I get puffed up with ego or I end up malnourished because of, you know, insecurities and fears. And I feel like you got to know where your door is, especially as God trusts you with anything.

Totally. Where's my weakness? One of the greatest things my husband told me we were watching, as we do, people who are in ministry who end up in scandals and it's public or they're being talked about because they've done something. And my husband goes, you know what the most powerful thing you can say is not that that will never happen to me. The most powerful thing you should be praying is God,

how could that happen to me? And if we don't know where our cracks are, we will spend a lifetime trying to build ourselves up and never recognize where are the moments where I could actually end up susceptible, successful, but susceptible to openings. And I think, as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, when Paul said,

in my weakness, then I am strong. It's not just, it's got to do with that. It's like going, I know my weakness here. So how it's going to be turned into a strength is I'm going to give the devil no ground. See, he walks around like a line seeking whom he may devour. So Nick and I talk a lot about this. I'm like, he may not.

So in our life, we will say out loud, he may not devour. So, you know, coming from a background, when you're left in a hospital unnamed and unwanted when you're born, my vulnerability to needing affirmation, acceptance, love, esteem, nurturing from anyone that is like a mother-like fear. If I'm not careful, I can really succumb to that. That thing will be the death of me time and time again. Or to protect myself so much, you know, 10 years of abuse, the defense mechanisms that I developed were not just healthy boundaries, but were walls.

And so if I'm not careful, my natural default is, you know, as personable as I seem, but I can be totally withdrawn internally and to create such safe spaces that I don't actually fulfill the purpose of God that relationally I don't build what needs to be built. I don't create pipelines and pathways for people and I'm seeking more on this earth to protect myself rather than to allow God to protect me. But I can be extra, of course like everybody, pride. I mean, I always laugh when people go, I'm not susceptible to pride. I'm like, if the worship leader of heaven take a third of the angels with him, I do.

I do not know why anybody on earth would think that we ever outgrow that susceptibility. So, you know, I've got checks and balances. And I think this is something we need to talk about more because the fine line with putting yourself out there, you know, living your best life, is being really careful that it becomes to living my most selfish life. Or I can do whatever I want to do because I'm God's daughter. Bless God. Well, no, I still have to. every day, deny myself, take up my cross and follow Jesus. That's discipleship 101. And my challenge, Sarah, you know, I'm down the track from you. But when you get to 60, you've had a measure of success.

And, you know, if I don't commit any of the big, big sins, I could pretty much coast my way into heaven based on the momentum of what I did. Now, unless you're prophetic, you wouldn't even know I haven't pressed into God. I could just pull out 40 years worth of messages. I can just live my life, but I would not have done what the Lord's called me to do to the end. Now, the issue is, though, nowhere does it say in my Bible that, Christine, until you're 60 and successful, you know, you've got to crucify your flesh, deny yourself, take up your cross, follow me. But then when you become 60, you can indulge in the sin of selfishness, comfort ease, you know,

and everyone actually will applaud you. They'll say, well, you've done so much. You can take it easy. I'm not saying there's not adjustments. Your body, your energy, all of the natural things. But the truth is, Caleb, out of that whole generation, was the only one that said, I'm 85 and I'm as strong. It doesn't mean I can do what I did at 21, nor do I want to.

This is why I want your generation to rise up. I'm like, please, could you all carry the load of this? I've got batons that I want to carry on. Sarah, if you see this divine real life, The best way I can illustrate it that I think is how I'm running my race. In the year 2000, Sydney, where I'm from, hosted the Olympic Games. Now, the American 4-by-100-meter relay team was the fastest women's relay team on paper, best athletes. And so I was there for that race.

Nick and I were watching. Now, what happened was there was a little bit of hubris amongst that team, like, we got this, this is awesome. So when it came to the third exchange, you know, there's a, 20-meter exchange zone in a relay. You can run your leg of the race really fast, but if you don't pass that baton in that 20 metres properly, then the whole team loses. Well, what happened was the American team came into that third exchange, had a little bit of confidence, we got this. While they blinked, Bahamas and Jamaica came on either side and took the gold and the silver

and the American team, just because they were sort of like, we got this, ended up getting bronze when they should have got gold. Well, in 2004, in the Athens Olympic Games, Marian Jones was running. Again, you had the fastest team on paper, should have won, but I think it was in the second exchange. What happened was Marion Jones, she was fatigued from jumping 11 times in the long jump the day before. So coming into that exchange, she got it into the hand of the next runner outside of the exchange zone. So the team was disqualified because they passed the baton too late. And then in the China Olympics in 2008, again, the American team was the fastest on paper. But on the third exchange, they dropped the baton

in the exchange zone. So three times they should have got gold, twice disqualified, once bronze, because they messed up in the exchange zone. And it was only in London in 2012, where there was a seamless exchange in the exchange zone that they won the gold. Well, spiritually, if you look at it, we have either a generation passing that baton too late you've got to start all over again or dropping it yeah in the and we i think we're in a divine spiritual exchange zone on the earth right now and how the seamless exchange now that doesn't mean i've still got a race to run there's plenty of batons i need to be running with but there's plenty of batons that i want to be passing on but when you've got a generation going i don't want that baton that i don't like the color of that one

oh that's too much work i don't i want that baton i want that baton You know, either I want the stadium speaking or I want the New York Times best seller books. I want this. I don't want to serve in the children's ministry for the next two years. I don't want to serve in the parking lot. And I'm like, you'll, unless you carry this baton, I can't entrust you with this one because your spiritual muscles are not formed enough to carry the weight of this baton. If I put it in your hand, you'll drop it. And then it will cost a whole generation. So I think we have to understand where we are in the divine relay. And some people look at me, years on and think, I'm in this last leg and I'm like, no, actually you're in the first.

Yeah. So there's certain batons for the first few rounds of that race. And so I think for me, there are so many things I want to hand on, but because we're scrolling and swiping, we're telling God what we want to do and when we want to do it as opposed to saying, what do you want me to do and when do you want me to do it. I'm old school, Sarah. We're like, we had to get into a prayer closet. I couldn't scroll through your life to tell God what I wanted to do with my life. I had to get in a prayer closet on my knees and hear from God about what he wanted in this season for my life. And that's how I outworked it on the earth. Chris. You are tossing us around. But it's so true and we're so distracted by what we see God doing in the lives of other

people that we're literally going into our prayer closet with our algorithm. Literally. And God's like, I don't do your algorithm. Your gift may take, and maybe for a year or two, but then when it comes to what is going to last for eternity. And I was just having this conversation with Nick, I go, my concern for a generation is when you understand the voice of the algorithm more than the voice of the spirit and you misunderstand, this is a tool. It is not God. Like every generation, I'm all about it. I mean, I'm all about using the tools of every generation in order to reach a generation 100%. And being culturally relevant, Paul all the way through the book of Acts, uses different methodologies in different places. He has a different evangelistic method, you know,

in Ephesus than he does in Athens, then he does in Thessaloniki. So you've got one for your world. I've got one for my world. But when you think the algorithm that you can set that thing how you want, because we think if I follow these people, the algorithm's going to tell me this. So if we tell God, this is what I want, oh, God's going to give me this ministry. The Lord's like, I'm not the algorithm. I have a, before you were formed in your mother's womb, you're my workmanship and I've created you for good works that I prepared for you in eternity before you ever got to earth. When you seek those, and that's really why I wrote the book, that's the flourishing life.

You don't even begin to flourish until you step into the good works that God prepared for you, not the ones that you think you want based on the success metrics of the world. So are we grieving these things that we want? Like, how do we let them go? The only way to truly let them go, you can't, you've got to grab onto what's better and what's better is God's purpose. So until you dig in and say, what is your purpose, so what we've done, and this is what I love, and this, I love this whole Going Rogue series.

You got to disrupt. I was going to ask you about that, because that was what I was going to ask you within, because I'm like, you know, you can correct me if you want, but I really do think that going rogue is kind of like. Totally. Yeah. I actually think you've hit it. I called, I texted you, I think, and told you, I left your voice note because, you know,

I binged at the beginning of the year and I've listened to every episode because we literally and how you've hijacked that word and reclaimed it for what it really is because the whole Christian life is going rogue. Yes. The entire Christian life is going rogue. But if you misunderstand that going rogue, the going robe is not to satisfy our own selfish desires, but the good desires that God puts in our heart, which actually are the exceedingly abundantly above and beyond anything you could ever ask, hope or think. Like if I limited myself to what I thought I wanted based on what people were doing around me in 1990, I would never be running a global anti-human trafficking organization. I would never have seen the millions of people reach by the grace of God

that we've seen coming to the kingdom of God and done what we have done. What God has is always better, but it becomes a trust issue because faith is predicated on trust and not understanding. So if you go rogue in a way that you're trying to understand, you're not really going rogue. To go rogue is to say, I'm going to trust him, even when I can't trace him, even when I don't understand what he's doing, even when nobody around me understands what I'm doing because I'm trusting the Lord. And I think ultimately we find it hard to trust God. And we trust an algorithm more than we trust God.

So I want everyone to go rogue, because I think the gospel calls us to go rogue. It's like lay down your life, pick up your cross, follow Jesus. Well, he's going to take you in a way, you know, the way up is down in the kingdom. It's all back to front. It's all rogue. But you're going to have to shake off the way you thought things would be. But that's not replacing them with temporal things or temporal success because ultimately that's not going to give you your ultimate satisfaction. When we're spending our whole lives telling people, you know, you might have everything.

But if you haven't got Christ, you really haven't found life. We want to help people. Now, you and I both are so committed. Obviously, I rescue the victims of human trafficking. I come from a background of abuse and abandonment. So we're always talking to two groups of people. I'm talking to the high-level people that I'm like, man, you've got everything, but you need purpose, a God purpose. But I also want the woman in the township in South Africa to know you can have more, you can be more, you were created for more. But if the wrong person, here's the message in the wrong way. And that's the challenge that we're always going to have.

So we can then be misunderstood because you and I might be talking here to this person and here to this person. And someone says, you're just trying to, you know, help people to think that, you know, material prosperity or, you know, you just did a great episode on jobs and wealth creation. And people say, well, you know, money's not going to make people happy. I'm like, well, you obviously haven't lived in a township because let me just tell you, if you want to feed your family, if you want to, you're saying that is a very, very privileged person that doesn't want anything. But if you're around people that have nothing,

then you want to help them out of their poverty, and this is how you can help them and create generational wealth and it creates things, legacy for their families. We're always talking to both groups of people, and Jesus always talk to both groups of people, is with the woman at the well, and then he's got the women in Luke 8 that are funding his ministry. So he's got both going. He's got the girl boss woman and the broken woman. When you're speaking to both, you're always going to be misunderstood by somebody. So welcome to your life for the rest of your life. And welcome to women evolve because that's what you're doing. And so people will take one thing out of context here, but you actually weren't even talking to that. You were talking to that broken as to bring life.

So the degree to which you're willing to live in the tension of that is the degree to which God will be able to use you, but that's dying to yourself all the time. That's the kind of thing that I'm talking about is that's the good work that God called you to. It'd be a whole lot easier for you to go one way or the other and not worry about it. But to do God's will, you're going to live in the tension of both, which means you will be misunderstood, which means you will be maligned. And it's a challenging thing to have to die to yourself and die to your need to be understood and knowing that's probably what it's going to be for the rest of your life in order to fulfill the call of God for your life. It really is. It really is. Definitely. And it makes you question your fuel.

Yeah. So like every now and then you got to be willing to check your fuel tank. Why am I doing this? And it can be hijacked. You know, you've probably been an incredible integrity person your whole life. But there were moments where I was, you know, in my less saved days. And in order for me to get back as someone who had wronged me, you put something in their gas tank because they wouldn't know that there was something that was going to make the car not run as well because they was running and playing games in my face. You know, we'll talk about that later. And so, you know, I'd put a little something to gas tank.

They didn't know that the fuel had pollutants in it. And I think that that's what happens to as we start off sometimes and maybe we're pursuing things from a place of purpose. Maybe we aren't. Maybe we are driven by our insecurities and our fears. And so we start building a kind of life that we want people to love and people like, but we label it ministry. And we put that label on it because we're going to tell God what we are going to do for God,

not really realizing that we're actually doing it to feed ourselves. And I feel like I am having to constantly check my fuel. So I told you I got off the social. So I have it now where the app's not even on my phone or I have to like log in on the browser and there will be these moments where I'm like oh I want to log on I know that my team has maybe posted something

like I want to log on it's like why it's like because I want to see if people like it I want to see what people are saying about me and that's like no you got to check your fuel and I think in order for us to really be potent in a world where we need to be as pure as possible if we're going to be effective

if we're going to cut through the noise if we're going to really bring change if we're really going to deliver a message that can reach people and radically change their lives, we've got to have the purest fuel possible. And I feel like for some reason this year that the Lord has really called me to this space where I'm like, you got to check your fuel tank constantly,

over and over again so that you can make sure you're doing this from the kind of place that can sustain you for a lifetime. And I feel like that's what, anytime I've got a lot of people who want to create content or they want to build brands, they want to build platforms,

and they want to know how. And I think the greater question is why, Why do you want to do it? Well, I love that. And see, Sarah, with the way you've done it, it is a miracle of God. You haven't used God to build your brand and you haven't used the name of Jesus to build your brand. You've served the Lord. And the Lord, there's a difference.

I don't even know how to tell you how. Exactly. Nobody, this is why I laugh is, and anyone I know that's really doing it for the right reasons, there wasn't this strategy. I don't know how to tell you how. I go, I go, I die daily. I don't know what to say to you. It's like there is no other way than to die daily. what people see is some of the mechanics of operating in the world,

but you cannot market your way to where you are. You had to die your way to where you are and continue to. That's the only thing. How do you get to where God wants you to be? You die daily. I mean, this is not the message for 26. I do realize that. But it will give someone hope of because what you realize is if your hope is in the method

rather than the person of Jesus, when the method doesn't come through in the way you want it to come through. So you write the book, it's not a New York Times bestseller. Or does that make the book not worth it? Like someone said to me when this hit New York Times, they go, oh, you know, this is, I don't know. It was an interesting thing. I said, well, does that discount the other 10? No, because I did them in obedience to the Lord.

Is it going to discount anything else the Lord asked me to do that may or may not be recognized in the world? That can't be the sole metric of is this thing a success or not, or am I doing? it. See, if you care more about how many like your post than how much like Jesus you're becoming, we have a problem. Or if you care more about how many are following you than about how many are not following Jesus on the earth, we have a problem. And so I think that's where we've gotten to. We're like, did you like it? I'm like, am I becoming like Jesus? You know, how many followers have you got? I go, do you realize that today, six billion people are not following Jesus? Is that, and as long as that's the fuel that's driving me, and that

That's the fuel that's driving you. So then God will continue to give you strategies on how to reach more people because you're not trying to reach more people so you have more followers, but so you can make followers of Jesus. So it gets really messy in the social media influencer world to really stay pure. It does. That I'm not using Jesus to build my brand, but I'm serving Jesus. You know, even in the scripture, Sarah, nowhere will you find one time. in the Bible, does it talk about a platform that's in the book of Nehemiah where the Lord said to

Nehemiah, I have given you a platform. He didn't say go build one. He said, I've given it to you. So when it comes to ministry, I don't build a platform. God gives me a measure, a field of influence. As long as I'm faithful to that, if he wants to enlarge the place of my tent, which I believe he can, then he can do that. But that's not me. I find it better. that I put in systems and structures to steward what God's given me. Yes, yes. Not to try to go into anyone else's field and go, I've got to be bigger or better. I'm stewarding what the Lord's given me.

That's very different to building a business or building a brand. Because, and again, that's why I'm saying people have got to hear what we're saying. So when you're talking with business people or brand builders or success people, there's a real place for that. And there are things that we need to do in order for all of that to happen. But when we're talking ministers of the gospel, if you don't use Jesus, You know, that's not the way that this thing works. God gives apostles and prophets and evangelists and teachers and which one am I missing out.

The fifth one. Evangelists, teachers, pastors. Do you say pastors? Yes, pastors. For this purpose, for the building of his body to train and equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. So when you're operating in that office, you're training and equipping the saints to do, you're doing this in church, you're doing that through your preaching, you're teaching, your books. And also, you're helping people.

to really, the evangelist side of you is working with a whole bunch of people that are not even, they're not even at the front porch yet, let alone in the church building on Sunday. So you're, to me, this podcast, women evolve, you're building that front porch really big and saying, come and sit on the porch. Now, before someone comes into my house and my kitchen table, we're having different conversations on the porch than we're having in the kitchen table to the point where we're sitting in the living room and we're really getting. Now, you do it all. So if anyone just takes one part of you and thinks, this is the secret to Sarah. This is how I'm going to do it.

I'm like, well, are you talking to the Sarah on the front porch here that's bringing people into the kingdom? The ones that's got them in the front room or in the bedroom, which part of it? And so to me, you know, and that's why you need to hear the voice of God, because you know when you're operating in what realm to achieve the purpose that God has for you. But some people that might just see you think if I just either preach like this or try to build my women of old, like she has. Women involved was like, it happened despite you. The things that I have seen that have been most successful in your life, I love, and I say to Nick, I go, everyone thinks she's strategised this. This has happened despite her, in spite of her. The Lord has done this. It's like he's put it on you and said, now, Sarah, build an infrastructure to steward what I've given you.

You haven't thought, I want to build all this thing and God's going to bless it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I didn't. I mean, from, like, when we had 1,500 people in Denver, I was amazed that 1,500 people came in Denver. I remember. I had dinner with you and nobody knows. I remember those conversations. You know, the 40,000, I was like, really, God, you know, is this how we're going to do it? You know, I don't want to lose what it was in Denver. You know what I mean? It wasn't, I never had this moment.

It was like, and eventually we'll be in stadiums. Eventually we'll be in a, and that was never a part of my plan. But I do, I did want to be a good steward over where we were now. So I did leave those moments like how can we do it better? Who could come into that room and feel isolated and what can we do next time to make sure that we wrap our arms around them? And I feel like no one knows that better than my team. And I'm always telling my team, I'm like, listen, I have no idea what I'm doing. It's true.

I wish people would believe you because it is true. I can testify. And I tell my husband and, you know, we had woman evolved last year and it was powerful in the room. It was like one of the most. You were there. You were there. It was so anointed and so powerful and so the Lord and the women that were in the room of every socioeconomic demographic, every life experience. It was a taste of heaven on earth.

That's who Jesus has in the room. It was beautiful. I could cry. It was beautiful. So I literally left crying. Yeah. And then we got torn up on the internet about a few things that happened at conference. I went overseas.

I had no idea. Until I heard you say it on this. It was, it was. I couldn't even believe it. I'm like, I saw nothing but could. I could not believe it. And I think that after that, I ended up finding myself in that tension. Yeah.

And that tension where you have to know what God did and you can't let anyone take it from you. Totally. You got to know what God did. And so I'm constantly telling the team, I'm listening for what God's doing now. And I don't always know what I'm doing. And if you're going to be on this road with me and you need consideration. consistency and experience and people know what they're doing. This is not going to be the team for you. It's just not because we're building this plane in the air and we're pivoting and getting direction as we go. And God's been really, really good to me that he's brought people who know to build planes in the air. No, I feel like you're kind of like a Noah that, you know, he was building an ark because God gave him a blueprint, but he didn't know what an arc was.

And because rain was coming, but he didn't know what rain was. And I feel as I watch you and watch what the Lord's doing, I'm like, rain's coming, but you're not even quite sure what that is. And there's an ark being built. Whereas other people think it's the other way around, man, if I can use God to build an ark and then I'm going to have revival and I'm like, it's not the way it works. you're doing it. Now that leaves you open to misunderstanding. Again, that's where I say, that's the cross you're going to have to bear. But to help the person on the other side of this podcast to understand that, say if you feel a ministry call,

then you don't tell God what you want to do. You begin to serve and get behind what God's already doing. And then the Lord shows you. And then as you're trying to flourish in life and prosper, whether it's in business, there are great things. And you're putting tools in people's hands to flourish and to do. that and it needs to happen. But always be careful in your heart of hearts. If you're doing something for the Lord, make sure it's for the Lord. Make sure you're not using the Lord to do it for you. So that's why I love the fact that even here you deal so much with heart issues because,

you know, guard your heart with all diligence. We're out of it flow, all of the issues of life. Everything we're going to talk about comes back to the condition of our heart. So if there's insecurity, if there's jealousy, if there's lust, if there's greed, if there's envy, if there's brokenness, that's why we will always come back to dealing with heart issues, because the more whole you can become internally, the more the spirit of God that lives in you, the more room than you give him, to rule and reign in your life. And then you will probably have more success externally. But it's good success. You know, the Lord said to Joshua, you know, be obedient, be careful to do everything that's in my word. And then you will make your

way prosperous and you will have great success. So I really do believe that we, We play a part in making our way prosperous and having great success. But there's good success and there's bad success. And I think what you're building is a generation of women to know what good success is. And there's a difference. Okay, you mentioned the book, The Faith to Flourish, God's Design for a Rooted, Resilient and Fruitful Life. Why is this book, Why Now? Because I'm 60 and I'm looking in light of this conversation.

And I, you know, I believe I'm going to live a long and fruitful life. and should the Lord Terry, who knows the way the world is? Who knows? Who knows? From today to tomorrow, we're still here today. Should the Lord Terry, everything that I'm doing is like, when I think legacy, again, I'm talking about baton of faith legacy, not Christine Kane legacy, but what can I say that's really going to make a difference?

Because I see what God's doing, especially in Gen Z, and I've never been more excited. So in four decades of ministry, I've never been more excited to be in ministry. I have never believed in a generation more and I've been in youth industry my entire vocational industry life I look at you I look at the gen but you're old now I'm not even a young girl anymore so you're like a mother so you're not

you're almost not even a daughter in Zion anymore you're a mother in Israel so I feel like I'm the big sister of the mothers and your generation is the mothers and so I'm looking down Gen Z, Gen Alpha and I've never been more excited because they're hunger and desire for the Lord but they're also the water they swim in is the algorithm world, is the AI world, is the Siri world, is the Alexa.

And if we're not careful, when, you know, your mom, thank God, no matter what happens to you, you had a mother that you had a prey. You've been scarred for life. I say to my children, you know, I'm sorry, you're going to need therapy because my kids, you know, no matter what, they're always going to have memories. I came down. My mom and dad were yelling in tongues in the kitchen. You know, like, I've scarred them for life.

No matter what, they're just going to have this thing that that's what my mum did. And I know if push comes to shove, that's what I'm going to do. But there's a generation that hasn't seen that and a generation that is like, Siri, how do I feel today? Yeah. Chat, what do I want? Okay, we don't even know to go to God first. Yeah. And so that's what you're ministering to.

This is why I really cover you in prayer because it's not, there's nothing easy about this. The enemy has made sure. Yeah. that the voice of Goliath, and it comes through a different AI, so if you don't know that's a tool, you're going to listen to it like a voice. So how Goliath came out, you know, 40 days, 40 nights, yelled and paralyzed, the whole Israelite army. And it says, David came and he heard.

So you can hear the same thing, but listen to different voices. So we've got to teach a generation that's hearing the same thing to listen to different voices. So mine was like, there's a generation that doesn't know God actually created us to flourish. And his life is the flourishing life, right from Genesis, you know, be fruitful, multiply, have dominion. And then, you know, Jesus said, okay, that you might have life and life more abundant. We've confused what the abundant life is with just a materialistic or social media successful life. And I'm like, okay, that's not going to work for our sisters in Iran or in Afghanistan

or in, I'm always thinking globally in Brazil. What does that mean for, it's got to work everywhere? If it doesn't work everywhere, I'm not. So I'm like, what is flourishing? What does it mean to flourish? And in a culture where we're using the, in my generation, suppression was the thing. In your generation, venting is the thing. Expression.

Okay. Suppression, expression. And both are really dangerous if God is not at the center of it. So of course, suppression did so much damage. But now all we're doing is talking about everything. And there's no victory. And there's almost, so we think, I've got to become a greater victim. Because after this victimhood story sort of has run its course, if that's what I've built my brand on,

I need another one. And it needs to get worse. And it needs to get more. And the lie of that is destroying a generation and it's medicating a generation. I mean, I'm watching how the enemy is using it. And I'm saying, for 40 years, I've been talking about abuse, abandonment, adoption. the testimony is that Jesus has given me a life beyond my past. The blood of Jesus does not give you amnesia, but it gives you a life beyond your past.

I mean, that's, but people think we've built a brand of our brokenness, of our story. Oh, Sarah had a baby as a teenage. So if I can tell my story, now a story is a great thing, but it's not yet a testimony. Yeah. A testimony doesn't become, and people will be saved how by the blood of the land, the word of our testimony, and that we love not our lives unto death. So I'm trying to help a generation go, stories are powerful and necessary narrative is so important. But it takes a bit of time for this thing to become a testimony.

And it doesn't stop. If it only stops at the cross, then it's not New Testament Christianity. It's not the res. And so what you can say at 60, the resurrection power is, Nick and I just celebrated 30 years that both my daughters love us, love Jesus, love the church. Not perfect, but they're flourishing. You know, one's in Paris doing creative writing and screenwriting in university in Paris. The other one, you know, has just come back from Argentina and is working with us and are just so creative and flourishing in the things of God. And so what I'm saying is now it's a testimony that a kid that did have a name on her birth certificate that was number 2508,

sexually abused for so many years, grew up in the poorest zip code in my state in New South Wales. the success isn't oh and now I you know I've built this big life the success is that Jesus Jesus save me that he's still my greatest joy that the joy of the Lord is my strength so I'm not free from trials and tribulations but boy I've learned to find Jesus in it that the peace of God that surpasses all understanding and you're learning this now thank God in your 30s by the time you get to 60 you realize Joyce told me this really early on. Peace is the thing that you will never want to compromise in your life. You will not be willing to sacrifice your peace for anything. So that's why you won't go back online like

you did if it steals your peace. Because that peace, that is our umpire, that peace of God, that surpasses understanding, the joy of the Lord, because truly we talk about kingdom and the kingdom is in stuff. What is it? Righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. When I was 30, I thought that was boring. I thought, what do you mean that's the kingdom? The kingdom, man, I'm going to go charge hell with a water pistol and I'm going to achieve this. And then I'm thinking, oh my gosh, the capacity in this world to pursue and love righteousness, to have joy when right at the moment, we don't know if a bomb's going to fall in our head, to have joy and to have peace when there is so much anxiety, so much stress.

So I've got friends and people that have everything, but they have no peace and no joy. And certainly sacrificing righteousness on the altar, of just confusion. I'm like, you know what? I never thought I'd sit here and go, that's the kingdom in the Holy Ghost. And it's like, if I can help a, okay, so generation, I think it is this, it is, I was at the Parthenon. I saw an olive tree that was thriving when nothing else was thriving. Everything else was dead and barren. And I went to eight olive farms in eight different countries, Morocco, Spain, Italy, Greece, Peru, all over the world, talk to the owners of olive farms and saw that in scripture, the olive tree, olive branch, olive oil, olives

are mentioned over 200 times. All the wood in the tabernacle was made out of olives that David, in his darkest hour, declares, but I am like an olive tree planted it in the house of God, flourishing in the house of God. And I thought, we're living in a world where so many people are languishing. Everyone's waiting for the world to get better, economically, politically, sociologically, morally, environmentally, before they flourish. And I'm like, it's not going to happen. So if you don't know from scripture what it means to be a flourishing olive tree in the house of God,

whose roots go down where you can grow where nothing else grows, where you can produce fruit where nothing else is producing fruit, where you're producing flowers and beauty, where nothing else is doing it, I think it's going to be our greatest witness in this end-time harvest that our flourishing lives when everyone else is languishing and barren and we're producing fruit and love and joy and peace that nourishes, a lost in a broken world, beauty that's nourishing our world because our roots go down so deep and we can grow where nothing else grows. We're producing when nothing else is producing. The fruit of the spirit is emanating from our lives in a world that desperately needs

love and joy and peace and kindness and goodness and self-control and long suffering. When we're doing that effortlessly, seamlessly because of where we're rooted and grounded, the world can be burning around us and people will be drawn to us. And then every major thing, when the flood went down, it was an olive leaf that, you know, signified that the flood had gone down that God still loved the world. When we were grafted in, as children of God in the New Covenant, it was an olive branch that we were grafted in. So you go through.

I mean, so for the theological nerds, we go there. Lisa Harper would be proud of us, but we go there. But from the person that's true. been languishing and pretty much since 2020 hasn't found their mojo, I'm saying it's time to get out of our languishing. And it's time to start flourishing again and understanding that our abundant life to be found in Christ in this world, and I've got to be honest, it's not going to get better. So if you're waiting for it to get better, for you to get better, you're not going to ever, you'll go to heaven, but you're going to go to heaven without ever have partaking of the

abundant life here on earth that Jesus died to give us. That's so good to me, I think, especially you reached back to 2020 because a lot of people have been waiting for the world to shift. Oh yeah. It's just, it's not, well, it's shifting, but. Sarah, they're still saying, I'll say to someone, how are you? Or even maybe, how's your business or how's your church? And they'll say to me, they'll start with the words like, well, you know, before COVID. Right. And I'm like, I remember when BC stood for before Christ. Yeah. So I know the whole world has shifted. COVID wasn't the defining moment, Christ was. So if Jesus is the same yesterday, today, today and forever, and all the promises of God are in Christ, Jesus, yes and amen. And Jesus is this hope we have as an anchor for our

soul just because everything else has changed, and it has. The world as we know it has shifted in the last 10 years. For us as believers rooted and grounded in Christ, he's the same yesterday, today, and forever. His promises are all in him, yes and amen. Therefore, of all the 8 billion people on planet earth, Christians ought to be flourishing in this hour more than anybody else because Jesus hasn't changed. His promises haven't changed and we should be rooted and grounded in him. So, therefore, we should have something that is so attractional to a lost and a broken world that compels them to come to this Jesus. You know, that challenges me, convicts me of it because I do think sometimes when you know the world is in a bad place, when you have these moments of joy or these

moments where you are flourishing, like even within our family system sometimes, we can be doing well, but our sisters or cousins or friends are still struggling. And it's like, well, I'll hide or diminish the fact that I'm doing well. Not that my life is perfect, but I feel fine. You know what I mean? If the world falls apart, I feel like God will take care of me. If I have to do it from the shelter, I think we'll be okay. And it's almost like we're afraid to own that because it may diminish, you know, someone else.

I'm so glad you're naming that. And I say that right at the introduction. It's time to come out of hiding. And because none of us are saying that any of that stuff's going to make us happier or more peaceful. We're saying Jesus is and I'm with you because I saw it when everyone was losing their minds over COVID. And the very first message I preached to all our global teams were all on, I called it the upper Zoom room, you know, for that. And I'm like going, is that, you know, in Zachariah chapter 9 verse 12, he says, return to your stronghold, you prisoners of hope. I said, we can be in lockdown.

Yeah. We're prisoners of hope. I said, nothing has changed for us. We're going to now learn to adapt psychologically, emotionally, physically, because. okay, some of you are in two bedroom apartments and you're not allowed to leave, so let's work out how we're going to keep our physical body. All the stuff that we learn about, but I'm not saying if you take this whole environment away from me, I no longer can be physically fit, or I can no longer flourish in life. It's, I have to learn to pivot really quickly, but don't confuse

the pivoting as the thing that I had is the source. Jesus is always the source. I'm like, that's why Paul said, I have learned to abound, to a base or to abound, whether I'm I'm in chains or whether I've got everything, I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me. And truly, I feel in the faith to flourish, I'm trying to remind Christians again, I'm like, y'all, we were born for this. Yeah. We roll your sleeves up.

Enjoy it. Throw your head back and laugh. And I know that that is confronting to people. But if we're going to hide our flourishing so that other people feel comfortable, I mean, you can be merciful and compassionate, but they will be drawn. The Lord says, I'm going to pour my glory out upon you so that the world is drawn to his light. And if we're hiding it and diminishing it because everyone else is having a breakdown because they're not rooted and grounded in Christ, we're not even doing our job evangelistically on the earth.

So good. Okay, I have to do rapid fire with you before we leave them. We're over time, but it doesn't matter because I have to know your answer to some of these questions. Okay. What's something ordinary that you find beautiful? Activity to do it. I love knitting. Really?

You're not a knitter. You know why? I've started seriously doing it this year because it offsets that they found it helped offset things like Alzheimer's, dementia, and just working on it. So I used to do it when I was young. I haven't done it. But now if you sit next to me in an airplane, you'll find me knitting. You have no idea how blown away I am by that. Were you expecting that? No. You know, I won't say that you're not domestic. But you know, the idea of you sitting down knitting just, I love it though. I crochet. It's not the same thing, but I do love crochet. It's very good for your brain. Good.

Okay. What's your go-to comfort food? Oh, Italian. Italian in general, but definitely, I'm a carbs girl. Oh. I listen, I just have never found comfort in lettuce. Well, Jesus is the bread a lot. I work out, I do the elliptical for an hour every day so that I can eat.

Yeah, and that's the reason why we're here. Yeah. Okay. Okay, hike a mountain or swim in the ocean. Hike a mountain. Yeah. What's your ideal day off? Sitting a very beautiful meal with Nick.

My ideal would be where I'm going for my 60th in the Dolomites in Italy. With Nick, with beautiful food, great mountains, and just surrounded by beauty. Okay. Fill in the blank. The world needs more. Joy. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Who in your life gives the best advice?

Joyce Meyer. Yeah. Love it. Thank you. I love you so much. So much of what Chris said in this conversation has stood out to me in the weeks after having the conversation. I will be marinating it for a long time. I feel like it's one of those things that you probably got to play back and take notes. But I will say one of the things that she said, that is going to stick with me. It's like, God is not looking for the next. He's looking for the new

thing. And even as to just bring this conversation full circle from the podcast, from the Mind Your Business question earlier, and it being Mental Health Awareness Month, sometimes we're looking for the next version of ourselves to show up. You know, what is it going to look like for me to be, what's the next new thing for me in my life and in my purpose that is going to springboard? or look similar to something that I have experienced in the past, where the Lord is inviting us as our identity shifts, as the world shifts around us, to not necessarily look for the 2.0 version of who we were,

but to be okay accepting a new version. And if you're like me, you're in a season where you're having to take inventory of what it looks like to be new and to be made new and to surrender to that process. I hope that this conversation and this time together has met you in that space and that it has encouraged and empowered you in a way that longs for you, that makes you longs to be in the presence of God and to be comforted and transformed in a way that is incapable of being undone, no matter what happens to you.

I pray that you experiencing the establishing of God's love and grace over your life and that you allow that to radically change you from the inside out. I love you and I am grateful that I get to do life with you. There are so many of you who have been a part of my journey and my story for a long time and maybe some of you who are just getting on this train. I'm grateful to hear your stories, to read your comments, to understand how you're growing, how you're feeling stuck, and how collectively we're helping one another move forward. It is our prayer here at Woman Evolve that you never feel like you're in it on your own. No woman left behind. That's what we stand by and that's what we're continuing to try and accomplish through all of these different ways that we get to connect with you. I want to pray for you before we. go. Lord, thank you so much for allowing conversations and reminders to meet us. In moments where we feel alone, God, I pray right now for the mental health of anyone who is connected to this podcast that you would give them the courage to admit where they are for someone who has struggled to

experience happiness because they've had so much instability admitting that they feel joy may be a challenge for someone who has often felt joy, but now feels sadness and unease. Admitting that may be a challenge. You know us so uniquely. And so God, I just ask that you would send your spirit to meet each and every one of us and the place where we are most in need of a reminder and a lesson and guidance from you. Would you please, Lord, open our hearts to receive it and give us the courage to walk and what you have for us so that we may be transformed to be vessels of your glory. God, I thank you so much

for the opportunity to serve these, your sons and daughters, because we know the fellas be listening. Bless them in ways that only you can. In Jesus' name, amen.