Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Faith On Display w/ Erica Campbell

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Grammy-winning gospel artist, radio host, and author Erica Campbell said what W.E. already knew: “SJR ain’t no regular girl.” Period! And after bigging up her leadership transition, the two unpack what truly happens when culture sees our faith on display. You see, today’s ministries are calling back the folks who thought they had to be perfect to seek God—and W.E. love to see it! In this episode, Erica explores the duality of her calling, shares insights on family life, and even pulls out her “church mother start kit”!

You are willing to turn all of your trust over to God. You just don't know how to do it yet. Keep your eyes open because what is the point in having a God who sees if our eyes are closed to the way that he's showing us? My father-in-law says we are pastors, which means we are doormats of the church. They're gonna walk over us sometimes.

They're gonna take advantage of us sometimes. And if we're working for them, we'll quit. But if we're working for him, we'll keep going. What's up, what's up, what's up. This is Sarah Jakes Roberts and you are listening to the woman evolve podcast. We are back in the saddle. What's up? I know it's been a minute and I am so grateful that we get to continue on this journey together. I am really excited about this week's episode. I had an incredible conversation with Erica Campbell, who I think she has just represented what it means to be a modern woman of faith since we were talking about getting shackles off our feet. Do you all remember when shackles was coming out? Like, I'm gonna keep it a buck as always.

I remember when Shackles was coming on K-104 or 97.9, however you do what you do, if you're from the DFW area, and Shackles would come on and then instantly something else like R. Kelly or something. They were mainstream talking about Jesus talking about freedom come on freedom at a time when it just was unheard of and here we are You know just a couple years later and they are still Erica in particular still Representing what it means to be real about our relationship with God what it means to be relevant to a culture that may think that God isn't necessary, and yet she's still invading conversations with hope and optimism.

And I just really enjoyed getting to know her through this conversation. Sometimes you meet people in back rooms or at the at events that you go to when you don't really get a chance to like really connect with them and get to know them. Erica is one of those people who has always been nice to me whenever I've seen her in a space. We did a pajama interview once before and it was really fun but I think something about where I am and my life right now,

I just gleaned from her wisdom differently. So yeah, I can't wait to get into it. That sounded like the intro, wasn't the intro. First of all, I got to catch y'all up with me. Let me see, today is Cinco de Mayo. It's the intro. First of all, I got to catch up with me. Let me see. Today is Cinco de Mayo. It's the Monday before you all are going to listen to this podcast. I just ran a smooth five miles, maybe.

I'll say maybe because my Apple watch clocked it at five miles. My trade mills did 4.63, whichever one is higher because the guy that I serve would not have me taking the low end. I'm always, I'm a glass half full kind of galley and it definitely gave five mouths. That's my answer and I am sticking to it, but it felt good. I haven't worked out in the last few days

and you all know I'm trying to be a runner girly. I want to do high rocks. I had a little fitness group, so we talked about this before I went on break. I got a fitness group, a few of my friends, we've gotten together. And since July of last year, we've like, okay, where almost all of us are in our 30s. And it's like, you know what, we want to start some healthy habits as we prepare our bodies

to really sustain us for the rest of our lives. And so we've been very intentional. And so we want to do this competition called High Rocks. Some of you may have heard of it. Some of you may have missed it and want to miss it. You know what I mean? You don't even have no FOMO in missing High Rocks. It's a fitness competition where you run eight times one kilometer and in between each kilometer,

which is 0.625 miles, in between each kilometer is some kind of strength endurance type exercise. There's rowing, there's a ski rig thing where you pull down on straps. It's like you're skiing. There's farmer carries, sled pulling, sled pushing, lunges, broad bump. Are you tired? Because I just got tired talking about it. I just got tired even thinking about this, but we're going to do it. And yeah, so I did some running today for the sake of the group because I'm in training.

Anywho, let me tell you what I did this weekend. I did something I have never done before. Most of the time, whenever I've gone to a conference, I have been attending the conference that my father hosted. I've been attending a conference that maybe a friend of mine hosted or I was speaking at a conference. I have never seen a conference online and been like, oh my gosh, I want to go to that conference or heard about it on a podcast.

And I decided to go to Lisa Harper's Carigma Summit in Nashville. I registered. I gotcha. I figured out the childcare, who's going to cover my portion of taking care of children and school runs, booked a flight, booked hotel, and I went to a conference. Let me tell you something. I am a conference girly. I will forever be on the hunt at this point for a

conference. This was not just services and worship. These were lectures and worship. Some of you all know I'm a little on the geeky side, and so I enjoy studying. I enjoy it particularly in studying scripture, the cultural context, and carigma is like all of these incredible scholars and theologians and professors who come together to talk about different aspects of whatever the theme was. The theme for this weekend was Christo Formidae, which is being made in the image of God and how we take on the form of Christ. And it's not, like I said, again, it's not necessarily like this preaching conference

where you're going to hear from all of these people who translate, interpret, exegete, that would like pull out things from Bible to help you apply it to life. These are people who have studied the context, they've studied the scripture, the origin of some of the moments and it was like totally geeky and nerdy and I absolutely adored it. I took so many notes, so many things for me to study. So I was just proud of myself because I did something for me. Usually I do not go anywhere. I do not do anything if it doesn't involve being at the house with my children or with

my husband. And I did something for myself. I was really excited. And I did it while also having finals week because I'm still in school and I was going to take, this is random, but I was going to take classes all throughout summer because at this point I will be graduating at the same time that I get my AARP card, which is fine. It takes as long as it takes, but I was going to take summer classes.

But I think considering this is my first time being back in school, I'm fitting to be somebody's co-senior pastor. I was like, let me take a minute and put a pause on school, allow myself some space in my life and my schedule and my rhythm to just breathe and be and create in 98. So I finished finals, I took my math final, I got an 89, which the girl is not mad at 89. She's just not mad at it. I don't know what my final grade is going to be. For my other class, I'm only taking two classes each semester. And the other one was a human development and family studies class,

particularly studying adolescence. And I don't know what I got for that. I just got my paper graded and I got it. Right now I have an 89 in that class. So whatever, finals, summits, Sundays, sleeping, miles. You have minded my business. That is my doing actually. You minded my doing. My puppy is it? Blah, puppy, blah. Anyways, you have minded my business, but let me give you a feeling. I'm proud of myself. I am happy. I am content. I am satisfied and excited and

anxious. They feel the same way. So somewhere in between excited and anxious. So those are my feelings. What are yours? Let me mind your business. Let's get into this week's podcast question. Hi. So my thing is I'm back on this newly walk with God. I've been going back on this path with Him since June of last year after suffering multiple

panic attacks and just having anxiety. But I felt like, and at times I'm trying to remind myself not to be too hard on myself, but what steps can I take to fully, fully put all my trust into God knowing that I know He's there, I know He's there But and he's there to help in every manner But like how can I what stuff can I take the food put my trust into him? Because at times I feel like I'm failing and lacking I keep feeling like I'm backtracking. I keep going like I'm Blank blank up. Sorry, see language, but how can I ensure that God understands my heart?

Because I have been misled by man, but I know he's not man. So how can I bridge that understanding knowing that he is fully there for me and that I can give all my trust or put all my trust into him? It's really hard for most of us to understand the reality that as we are in relationship with God, that we are still getting to know God. God is omnipresent, He's all-knowing, and yet we are still getting to know God. There is something to be said about you giving yourself permission to get to know God. Walking with God is a journey and part of the reason why it is a journey is because not only are you learning about God, God's showing you things about yourself.

Thinking not strange when you go through situations and you don't know how to trust God in this situation. You don't know if God's going to show up. You don't know if you can trust God through this moment. You don't know if there is any possibility that this thing that is so horrific could actually turn out for good. And so I want you to give yourself permission to not try and force yourself into this posture of complete trust because trusting God, especially as a new believer, is something that takes time. It is built because you begin to understand the character of God

and you begin to trust God's consistency and God's faithfulness because of the history that you have with God. And when you don't have your own history with God, scripture is when we get to see his faithfulness through the lens of other people's experiences. When you hear other people's testimonies, you get to hear about the character of God through other people's testimonies there's nothing like Meeting the friend of a friend and that friend begins to talk about your friend if you if you manage to like get over the fact that your friend has other friends because sometimes that'd be a hard pill to Swallow because like girl I thought it was just what is this but once you get over that pill, it's like man

Oh my gosh, she's loyal to you. Oh my gosh, she picks up the phone for you. Oh my gosh, she always makes you laugh. Oh my gosh, she's praying for you. You begin to realize that what you experience from that person isn't necessarily just unique to who you are. This is who this person is in totality. And if you can embrace that this is who that person is, then you don't think that it's

something that is just specific to certain situations and certain circumstances. This is what we learn when we hear other people's experiences with God and why it is necessary for our own journey of getting to know God. When I hear about God's faithfulness, when I hear about God's consistency in someone else's life, it gives me insight into what God can do for my own.

And so I want you to give yourself a break. Give yourself a break. You're getting to know God, you're getting to know yourself, and you're getting to know how you can walk out life with God. You are willing to turn all of your trust over to God. You just don't know how to do it yet. And time is when you learn to unclench your fist and to give all of your heart to God. I wanna show you something

that God recently highlighted for me that I was so deeply moved by. It's in Genesis chapter 21. And first of all, I wanna start by just really laying a foundation for the level of patriarchy that existed in Scripture back then. I know we have our own concepts of patriarchy, depending on where we're from and what worldview we bring to what's happening in the world. But when we look at the Western Icelands, of patriarchy is quite different than this Eastern lens of patriarchy, ancient patriarchy that we see in scripture. And so when we look

at Genesis 21, I want you to understand that Hagar, who, okay, I'm trying to give you a backstory because I never want to take for granted that like there are some of us who are still learning the Bible, learning these stories. And I want to give you like the cliff notes versions without jacking anything up. But God makes a promise to this man named who are still learning the Bible, learning these stories, and I wanna give you like the cliff-nose versions without jacking anything up. But God makes a promise to this man named Abraham, and he tells Abraham, I'm gonna make you the father of many nations.

Get out of your father's house. I'm gonna show you this land. I'm gonna create a nation out of you. He doesn't mean like, I'm gonna make you the United States of America. He's like, I'm gonna create a people group out of you. And from this people group, I'm going to bless them. I'm going to make sure that they succeed

in everything that comes their way. I'm going to cover them. I'm going to be their guide. And they are going to be countless. Like I'm going to make you into a group, okay? You're going to be a tribe. And so Abraham is like that. He leaves his father's house and he goes to this land

that God's going to show him. And God made him a promise that I'm going to make you the father of many nations. Only problem is he's married someone who cannot have children. Now let's flip the script for a minute and be a woman. To be a woman at that day and age, your soul worth in value through the eyes of the culture was to be able to produce children. If you could not produce children, your worth and value was instantly diminished. You needed to be a virgin.

You need to have sexual purity. No one needs to have touched you. And then you needed to be able to pop them babies out. Sarah could not pop them babies out. So God's made Abraham a promise, but he's given him this woman who doesn't seem like she can deliver on the promise. So homegirl is like, bet you finna get a baby one way or another. So she takes her maid servant Hagar, who is not a part of this promise, right?

She's a foreign woman, which means that she's not a part of this tribe that moved with Abraham. And so they take this woman who was her maidservant, likely a slave, likely someone who didn't have the best stage in life according to what was culturally the norm and she is subject to Abraham. And I can imagine that it was not necessarily consensual but just a part of life. And so we take this woman who is enslaved, who is indebted to this couple

who have this infertility issue. She's gonna be the solution. She has this baby, I feel like I'm taking a long time. Y'all just bear with me. She has this son, then oh girl mess around and she actually has a baby. Now she didn't have a baby and now I have a baby. Okay, so God tells her, hey listen,

like the two of them ain't mixed no more. Because you know, Hagar was supposed to be the one who fixed their fertility issue, but God went ahead and fixed their fertility issue. Have you ever done something trying to fix what God said he was gonna do and then God did what he was gonna do, but you got to fix what you ever done something trying to fix what God said he was going to do and then God did what he was going to do, but you got to fix what you did that was supposed to be what God was supposed to do, but you did, okay, this is what happens.

And God is like, separate the two, right? I'm going to keep things trucking on this side, but you got to eliminate this issue. It sounds heartless. How could God take this victim, take this woman, I'm going somewhere, I promise you, who was just a slave caught in the fire between these two people who were trying to fix her in infertility, and so he casts this woman and her son out. She sits his baby down, she's like,

listen, we ain't got no water, we ain't got nowhere to go, we're gonna be in trouble. She puts the boy down and she's like, I'm just, I don't wanna watch you die. And so she goes, she goes and she sits down and she's just waiting for the little boy to die. And the little boy is praying. He is praying like, ooh,

I preached about this one time. It was so good to me. And so the little boy starts praying cause he like, listen, my mom is tripping. I know about this God that my father was talking about. Surely there's something you can do. I don't know what he prayed. This is what I'm just saying.

The Bible says that, and God heard the voice of the lad and the angel of God called to Hagar. So the angel of the Lord calls to Hagar. Hagar doesn't realize that the boy is praying, but because of someone else's voice praying, the angel of the Lord addresses Hagar. I just feel like there's something to be said for those of us who are praying for people. Angels are going to show up as a response to those prayers. They won't even know that. It says maybe there's something that's shown up in He said, for those of us who are praying for people, angels are going to show up as a response to those prayers. They won't even know that.

It says, maybe there's something that's shown up in your life right now that somebody prayed into your atmosphere. You didn't even know it was there. Anyways, so the angel of the Lord calls to Hagar. Hagar is like, listen, God, listen. The angel of the Lord calls to Hagar and he says to her, don't be afraid. What else? You fear not for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is arise, lift up the lad

and hold him with your hand for I will make him a great nation oh wait a minute he gonna be a nation too wait a minute God hasn't cast me out God hasn't forgotten about me God's got a plan for me even though these people played in my face and so she opens her eyes and she sees a well of water she sees a well of water out of nowhere and she goes and she fills the skin with water and gave the lad a drink I know you're probably wondering like, why am I telling you this long story? Because I want you to know before this moment happens in scripture that if you go back to Genesis 16, there's a moment where Hagar and the woman are having issues again and Hagar

takes it on upon herself to move. She gets out of the way to try and control. Listen, if everybody can control a situation, say, I'm take control of the situation too. I'm running up out of here. And when she decides to run out there, she calls on the name of the Lord who spoke to her in Genesis 16 and says, you are the God who sees. This is the first time in scripture that we ever hear God being called something. You know how, well, maybe you don't know, but later on we hear people saying like, you are the God who knows, you are the God who does this, you are the God.

This is the first time we ever see someone trying to give language to the character of God. Why is this important? Because in Genesis 16, she says this, but then we look in Genesis 21, and this same Hagar is in a wilderness season, and she's not calling upon the name of the Lord, but God still sees her.

I say this to say to you, that it doesn't matter how much of a break you took from God. It doesn't matter how off track you think you are or how distant you are from God. That we serve a God who sees. To me it's even more powerful that God saw Hagar because Hagar is not a part of his original plan. He speaks to Abraham. Abraham has his wife. Hagar is not a part of his original plan. He speaks to Abraham. Abraham has his wife. Hagar was just a byproduct, a bystander in someone else's story, someone who wasn't even

supposed to be the star. There was supposed to be no plan for her. She just ended up being the victim to someone else's plot and yet still, because she was victimized, because she got the short end of the stick, because it didn't seem like her promise had any value to anyone else, God goes out of his way. He pauses the plot of someone else's story to let Hagar know that I have a plot for your story, that I have a plan for you. And Hagar's response is he is the God who sees. She learned who God was

in the moments where she was still trying to figure out who she was, in the moments where other people didn't understand who she was. She learned that God is the God who sees and she learned this not because she was forcing it, not because she was making her self-trust, but because she learned to call out to the Lord. And in the process of her calling out to the Lord, the Lord responds to her in a way that affirms who he is. And she begins to trust God season after season, not because it was easy, not because she was certain, but because he just kept showing up in ways that were undeniable.

So I guess my advice to you beyond don't put pressure on yourself, let this be a journey, walk your life out with the Lord is keep your eyes open. Because what is the point in having a God who sees if our eyes are closed to the way that he's showing up? Keep your eyes open. Keep your eyes open. Keep your heart open for those moments when the angel of the Lord shows up in situations that seem dire,

situations that seem out of control, situations that seem like they are absolutely at the end and you have nowhere to go. Keep your eyes open for the ways that God shows up through other people's prayer, through other people's podcasts, through things that are posted even on social media. You got to be hungry to see God.

You got to be hungry to see God in everything. Sometimes we get so consumed with this idea of God showing up in big moments that we miss the little ways that God is affirming us, the little ways that God is showing up in our lives. I was speaking on Sunday and I was talking about, you know, well, I grew up in church and so people say, you know, I woke up this morning, I was in my right mind, I closed on my body, food on the table. These little things that we start to take for granted are the little ways that God continues

to show up for us. And if we ever begin to normalize blessings, then we will make ourselves hungry for bigness instead of being grateful for the still small, consistent ways of God that are with us every single day. And so that's my prayer and advice to you. I hope that made sense, but I just, I've been moved by the Hagar thing and maybe I'm trying to force it, but at least force it into your context. But it just moved me so deeply

that God went out of his way to see this foreign woman who was not a part of the plot at all. And if he would do that then, what does that say about what he will do now for those of us who are foreigners? Foreigners to his word, foreigners to his word, foreigners to his ways, foreigners to his will, but curious. Maybe God will go out of his way for you.

Maybe the fact that you're even seeing this video, maybe the fact that you're even hearing this podcast is a sign that God will go out of his way for you. I hope that helps you. If I could sing a song, I would sing, good God, I feel all right. Right now I feel all right. Today I feel, let me tell you something. If I could sing, you would be turning this podcast off and flipping something else. But one thing I will say is not too much on my vocals, not too much on my vocals.

But when I say, help, when I say not too much on my vocals, I mean, take the shackle. When I say not too much on my vocals, I mean, I love God. You all love God. What's wrong with you? Okay. Listen, if I didn't land that, don't even worry about it because my next guest is about to clear it all the way up. Every word she speaks and every testimony she shares is a reminder that worship is more

than a song. It's a life laid down. I am talking about the incomparable singer, songwriter, Grammy award-winning gospel artist, radio host, author, speaker, and I hope to say one day my good friend, Erika Campbell. I am crazy enough to believe, though, that she would rather be known as wife, mother, friend, sister. And we talk about all of those things that she is not just on the stage but off the stage how she's balancing it the twists the turns and all of the

things I got to mind her business for real I did not know the backdrop of her parents story and the origin of her family but it was an incredible story and I can't wait to share it with you she's grabbing the podcast mic today it's gonna be full of glory, grit and grace. I need you to settle in because Erica is about to bless us from every angle possible. I'm so proud of you. Thank you.

I was remembering your blogs that you, your vlogs you would send out a long time ago. And I remember your language being just different. I was going, this ain't a regular young girl talking. Like I could feel the godness even in how you articulated your early emotions stepping into. It was just online and you weren't doing the videos and the social media thing wasn't happening. So from there to here, it's just been wonderful applauding you and celebrating you and praying for you and your family. I'm just, I got pom-poms on for the Jakes family. Thank you. I appreciate it. I, yet Sunday, when everything first happened, I was so,

we've been talking like strategically, like when, when do you do it? How do you say it? And I think we've been so like logistic focus and maybe strategy focus that we didn't really consider the emotional impact of it until the words came out of his mouth on Sunday. And I just, I feel like I got it. Like I feel like I got what the church meant to him in a way that I didn't get growing up. I think the church for me represented this place we're getting dragged to all of the time. And then this place where I experienced some rejection.

And then a place of healing where I think I always was either being drug into it or receiving from it. And I think for the first time I saw his blood in the walls, like his sweat on the carpet, you know what I mean? Like his heart beat in the people. And there was something about watching him and he didn't, I mean, he, he didn't tell them goodbye, but it was something about him letting them know that a goodbye was coming. Yeah. That was so deeply grief field for him, but not like in a, I don't want to do it way, but in this was my life way that I think I spent all Sunday processing it.

You know, I think that I was right that he sacrificed time with family, sacrificed time with my mom in order to build this church. And I probably wondered sometimes, was it worth it? And I think in that moment, I realized for him, it was worth it. It was the only thing he knew to do. And he poured himself into it. So I spent all Sunday just kind of wrapping my mind around

that, I think healing that perspective, the way that he saw it for the first time. And then Monday I woke up and was like, what happened to me? What happened to me? So when people are like, congratulations, I'm like, I don't know what happened to me. So yes, I don't know. I don't know what to do with that. I think I'm curious because you have so much experience

in this gospel world, in this church space. Like what do you think is happening as it relates to faith and culture, the intersection that it once lived in? I feel like it exists, but then I also feel like it's changing. I'm just wondering how have you noticed things changing? That wasn't any of the questions on the thing, but I just, I'm taking advantage. I feel like we're on the cusp of an epic battle that God has been trying to prepare the church for. Okay. And I think in some ways we have stars in our eyes when we look at culture,

because it's cool when the culture thinks Christians are cool. Yeah. And so we have kind of mistitled a moment when we're supposed to be standing up strong, and we're like, I'm just like you, when we should be saying that there is a difference. And I think that God is going to shift it for His glory because, you know, He ain't surprised by this. And we know that He always wins, but everybody won't get it and see it.

But I believe that there's also a generation of young people who are getting it and understanding, oh, I can't play with the devil. This ain't just, this is actually warfare for my life, for my children, for the generations to follow. And so I'm excited. I'm nervous. I got a lot of questions, but I'm very sure about God's ability to guide me and guard me. Like, there's been way too much that he's done for me to think that he won't take care of me now. Someone asked me

a question. They said, what are you afraid of? And I said, nothing. And they went, what do you mean? I was like, literally nothing. If I lose it all, he gives it back to me. If I'm broken, he puts my pieces back together. If I don't have answers, even if I have to wait for them, he gives me the answers. And so I think that when culture sees us grab our faith in that way, it shifts there, oh yeah, I don't have to change, we're homegirls. They'll go, let me rise to this level of holiness and this level of relationship with Christ that makes me get where God wants me to be. Not where the church thinks you should be, but where God wants you to be in relationship with Him

and understanding that our strong relationship with him backs the enemy down. Do you feel like that is an assurance that comes? I tell people all the time, I want to be a church mother so bad. I'm a church mother in training. What you said just gave me church mother, you got a starter kit and you could possibly be on your way one day because it's something about, I just know too much about them. Yes, girl. To believe that I can be afraid of anything. be on your way one day because it's something about I just know too much about him. Yeah. To believe that I can be afraid of anything.

Do you feel like that assurance just comes from walking with the Lord for so long that you just know too much about his character, his ways, his provision that you can't be afraid when the world starts getting turbulent? I'm getting chills because I just seen too much. Yeah. Seen too much of too many stories, too many testimonies. I've seen too much. I've seen too many stories, too many testimonies. I've seen the good and the bad. I've seen the up and the down. I've seen things that I prayed for, I get. And then things that I prayed for, I don't get.

And where my faith grows in those moments has just made me more sure. In my heart, in this season, it's all about the next generation. I cannot stop thinking about young 20-year-old girls, young 30-year-old girls, where they are, how they're processing. I'm thinking about my 13-year-old daughter and my 20-year-old daughter and their friends and how they're processing faith because they have way more distractions than I ever had.

They don't go to church seven days a week like I did or you did. They, Sunday, maybe one day. My daughter went to, we went to afternoon service and they were like, so hold on mom. You don't even know the cost of the oil in my alabaster box, baby. You just got here. So yes, I'm feeling like that mama Erica is rising up in me. And you know what?

I'm not mad at it because mama, the mamas represent this confidence, this safe place, this love. The mamas are where you go when you're wounded and they help you heal. The mamas are where you go and they say, mm-mm, baby, you can't fall apart right now. Mm-mm, it's not time yet.

And you wipe the tears. And so to think that I could be that for somebody is a privilege. I am 53 today. No. 1,052 years old. Why would you lie on this good Lord today? I am.

And I'm so grateful. Oh my goodness. You and April, April, I don't know her last name. I thought April Daniels. Oh Daniels. She just turned 52. Y'all. That girl's so fine. She, you, you are so fine. Y'all are so fine.

53. Wow. First of all, your wisdom is showing up in the way that you're speaking right now because I do think that there is this clarion call right now to be conscious of the next generation and the messages they're receiving and how we're living out messages of faith for them. I do, I hate it being in church all the time. I was a church girl by biology only. Some of my church girlfriends are like, oh my gosh, I loved it so much. Like I did not enjoy it, but now I'm raising my girls.

I'm like, I think y'all need to be at church Monday through Sunday the same way that I was, because there was something about, we weren't as exposed because we had to be up at the church. We didn't have as much, you know, free time to be as exposed. And so I don't know, but I do think I am tasked with this role of making faith real for them, which means putting my faith in my fears and my nerves and anxiety on display and connecting

my faith in real time for them. And I'm prayerful that that level of transparency and vulnerability and my own walk with the Lord will be better than, you know, them being up there Monday through Sunday since that we don't have that going. But I'm wondering as we have seen a shift in church culture with mental health, with faith, with vulnerability and transparency, what role do you think that is playing in this renaissance emergence of what it means to be a believer in these days and age? I think it's helping the generations that felt like faith men, I have to be perfect.

I think it's calling back the people who were like, I could never get it right. So I'll just be here on Easter and Mother's Day and I'm good. Yeah. You know, I think that it is giving those people another look at a life with God. For me, my faith has always checked my fears. Not that I didn't have them, they would be there. I remember sitting in church going, they only like me because I could sing. Yeah. I felt that a lot of days, you know, felt used, you know, in church because they ask, are you okay? And I love the church and I don't mean I'm not one that bashes the church. But you kind of feel like they don't really care as long as I show up and serve. And I think that us, especially me being honest about that, allows people to embrace God and

church in this community in a way that is honest and does take mental health breaks and does go on vacation. My husband takes a sabbatical for a month and when he first did it, I was like, oh, you're not a real pastor. What you mean? I'm not. I promise you not. I mean, and he is not going. He's taking his time. He's connecting with being himself. And I think that that taught me something. And so I'm giving that

to other people, especially the generation that grew up in church and are kind of there but wounded by it. I'm asking that God restore a love for it, for the community, for the church body, so that we illuminate it in a different way. And it looks like something where people are like, oh my God, they look like they have so much fun. Yeah. How has being a pastor's wife been different

than being a gospel artist? Hmm. being a gospel artist? Hmm. Hard-hitting questions on your birthday? It's challenging. Okay. Because you pour on the people, you love the people, you serve the people. And sometimes they're like, you said this to me, I don't like it, I'm out.

And you're like, but Lord, I thought I did such a good job mentoring and I thought we really poured our heart out or people serve you and they disagree with something. And not only do they leave, but they stir up the chaos and there's people that leave with them. Bishop Kenneth Omer taught me and my husband, he said, love the people, but don't fall in love with the people. Care without carrying, because it is God's job to heal, to restore, and to save.

I'm just the manager of this church. I got a boss I got to answer to. And so when they don't get me and I don't get them, I got to direct them to him. But it does hurt, you know. My aunt was my first me and I don't get them, I got to direct them to him, but it does hurt. You know, my aunt was my first lady and I adored her. And so feeling like I have to be a version of a first lady in her way, it's probably not healthy, but it is what I do. But we've got great people.

The people that are there that do love and do serve, we got good people, but people that are there that do love and do serve, we got good people. But it does stretch you. It does stretch you. Because sometimes I do. I talked to Dr. Bridget Hilliard and she said, I used to leave service, amen, and go to my car and close the windows with my kids, don't talk to me. I can't do that. I can't do that because being an artist, they already think I'm that. Yeah. Because of where they've seen me, TV and shows and stages and stuff.

They already think that I'm me and I'm really not, but sometimes I'm tired. Yeah. I'm just burnt out. And so I usually pray for strength because I know that their thoughts will sometimes influence their faith. Yeah. Their thoughts of me and their experience with me will influence, see, I knew nobody loved me.

So I have to tell my staff, especially my security staff, y'all, this ain't the Grammys today. California Worship Center. Yeah, right. You have to connect with the people. So it's different parts of my brain to be an artist and to be a First Lady. But I think as long as I remember that no matter how high I get or what he gives me,

I'm still at the feet of Jesus, then I treat people with the care and consideration God has given me, then I try to give that to them. And that helps me make good choices. Do I always get it right? Maybe, I don't know. Yeah. You know, Bishop Ulmer was really responsible.

He played a role in my husband's faith journey early on. And so, you know, I lived in LA for a little bit. So I feel like, you know, those are some of the OGs of faith in Los Angeles. And I heard him say on a podcast something that really resonated with me, I think, especially as we were talking just about transition and succession in our life. And he said he never wanted to do anything that made his members ashamed that he was their pastor. And I felt like it would be easy to say, well, you shouldn't live with that pressure.

But I felt like that level of reverence, that level of reverence for the role, that level of recognition of these people being connected to you and carrying them with you and everywhere you go. Sure, it's a weight, sure it's a responsibility, but if God's equipped you to do it, he'll give you the strength to carry it. But it just felt like a necessary sobriety for me as we were considering whether or not this was a good fit for us. And I feel like that's the posture that I want to bring into leadership is like I want I never want to do anything that makes someone ashamed that I am their pastor.

And I just when you said that idea of like you your your their interaction with you could it could impact their faith. It made me think about that. And I feel like even though I've been pastoring, like I've always been pastoring kind of from behind the scenes or someone else is covering, but now as we move into the forefront, I recognize that like the way we show up in the world,

the way we treat others, not when the lights are on, the cameras on, but outside of those moments that we may be the only glimpse of God that someone sees and what do we want them to see? that we may be the only glimpse of God that someone sees and what do we want them to see. And it may be telling them, hey, I'm tired and the Jesus is running low. You about to get me? You about to get me?

I don't want to mess it up. You might want to let me go to the car today because he's running low. So I try to navigate this tension of being human and showing that humanity, even on my social media, right? Like we're playing around, we're doing stuff with our kids, because I never want to become an icon or like this, you know, I don't want to be on this pedestal. So the more I feel like that we can see that this is a real person in real life, I think that it's easier for when they see us in those platform moments to hold those two truths.

I feel like that's one of the most difficult things that maybe Previous generations didn't get to have is they were only seen on the platform In the ropes on the stage telling you what you should or should not do telling you who God is And then no one saw them eating chicken No one saw them, you know doing whatever with their children and with their family. And so it was hard to see them as human. I think that modern day leadership is going to require authenticity and divinity living in the same space.

We can't afford to just allow our divinity to be on display. Authenticity with wisdom, right? But I think it's got to be authenticity or divinity because the divinity or then the falls are all that has been shown publicly. You're either divine and doing what God said do or I'm seeing you in a headline. And there are some of us who are just human, just raising our kids, just having a hard day, just going through anxiety and still called. And I think we got to let those two live together.

Yeah. And I think that Jesus showed us that. He was on his way to the cross, but he was like, hey, Father, hey, Dad, so like, is there any other way we can do this? He was honest about not wanting to go to the cross, but he knew he had to. And I think when we live with that knowledge and understanding in our hearts, we understand that it's okay to not be having pom poms on about the task at hand, but that nevertheless has to be there. And I think that when you live in that space, it keeps you humble.

I think far too many people aspire to this because of what they think it would do for them. You know what I mean? Like, this will mean, now this will finally mean, when I'm up there, then they'll finally see me, but God sees you as an usher at the back of the church. He sees you, you know, when you're serving the man or woman of God, He still sees you. And your heart posture matters. And far too many times, the envy that people feel like they're justified in holding because somebody did them wrong, when they get to the platform, you see they're broken. That's enough.

You're anointing, you know, because they didn't deal with it. You got to deal with your issues because the light illuminates everything. And when you are on that pedestal, that's a scary place to be. But it's the reason I put those lyrics in my song Positive. I know who I am and I know who I'm not. I know the difference between the two and it tells me a lot. And so when I recognize Erica, this ain't you, I'll go, okay, God, it's in your hands. This ain't me.

This is all you. Then I don't try to take credit or try to be more than I am in that moment. And I think that when our leaders take that position and show their humanity, I think the people in the pews understand that I have to rise up because I love God, not because I have a position. I'm not, you know, they're like, I don't have to live as holy because I'm not a pastor. Well, when you stand before God, you're not going to say I'm a pew member. He's going to say, you're my child. Did you treat me as a father?

Did you honor me as a father? Did you serve me as a father? Or I'm just in a pew, so I'm cool. It's not a different section in hell for- Right, right, right. Oh well they- Oh hi, where y'all at? Where you going? You know, I was trying to say that on Sunday but I didn't, I couldn't get the words together and it was a lot going on but I was like, there's a lot of people who want this position and I don't

want to sound dishonoring but I didn't necessarily want it because I think that the people who aspire to have it often aspire to have it for the wrong reasons. And I think the people who see it properly understand the weight and responsibility connected. And I think you would be foolish not to question whether or not you could lift it. You know? Yeah. But if you think it's going to lift you, then you could lift it. You know? Yeah. But if you think it's going to lift you, then you jump on top of it and you think you're going to ride the wave. But I don't, I don't think that at all.

And I think when your father's a pastor, you get a chance to see it. So my father was a preacher. He pastored for a short while, but my uncle was my pastor most of my life. And I saw what they went through. I saw the family. I saw brokenness. And even my uncle's going on to be with the Lord, and I'm still seeing the remnants of things. Yeah. And so as a first lady, I'm like, God, how do I guard myself from that? Yeah. You know, kids that haven't ought with the church or God.

You know what I mean? Cause you feel like I gave my life to you. We gave our lives to you. How does it end up here? You know, my uncle who prayed for people to be healed from cancer. I mean, we've seen it in every way, shape and form. Coming in with a robe, coming in with the IV,

coming in with the x-rays showing that the cancer was gone, but he died from cancer. Mm. I had some issues for a while. He died probably 2018, something like that, and... I had struggled for a long time. And...

my reconciliation with it all was I accept what God allows, even when it doesn't feel good. Because I don't ask God to explain His blessings. Right. You know, I don't ask Him, you know, why when the abundance and the favor and the grace. And so that is a part of life. And so when you understand it is a part of life, you prepare yourself differently for the good and the bad. And a lot of people don't know that's what it is. They just think it's all shiny and people love you and they serve you and now you're no.

My father-in-law says we are pastors, which means we are doormats of the church. They're going to walk over us sometimes. They're going to take advantage of us sometimes. And if we're working for them, we'll quit. But if we're working for him, we'll keep going. You guys seem like you're doing an exceptional job though. Obviously, I see a lot of what you do on social media being in LA, the overflow of membership and people have been impacted by your ministry is definitely felt in the city.

What I admire the most is like all while you're doing that, you're also touring, you're also on the road, you're also unpacking dorm rooms at colleges, and I forget what your daughter, is it choir? What was she doing? You were just posting- Glee? She was in the Glee, yes. In the Glee club at Spelman. Yes, I mean, the girls are, oh, and pageantry.

Your baby girl, she's- Oh yes, she won Little Miss African American. Yes, okay, so I. She's one little Miss African American. Yes. Okay, so I'm going to ask you the question that everyone asked me that I stumble and bumble through because there is no answer, but how do you balance it all? I'm not. The balls are dropping. No, I'm not.

The balls are dropping. I always tell myself I wear a lot of hats, but I don't wear them all on the same day. Then God gave me the family and the husband that I needed for the career that I had. He gave me the personality that I needed for what I have. So I believe the blessings of the Lord maketh rich and addeth no sorrow. And so sometimes, you know, me and my conversations with God get a little, I'm like, Lord, you gave me this. You're not going to give me what I need to take care of these girls?

I've never been a mother of a 20-year-old. She'll be 21. What would I do? I don't know. Because it was a different day and age when my mom raised me and my seven sisters, which I still think she's a saint. But I take it one day at a time. Some days, my body takes the abuse, you know.

I start a tour in two weeks and I'm supposed to be on vocal rest. But I have a radio show every morning, get up mornings. So I'm like, Lord, will you open the door? Was I supposed to say no? Did I hear you wrong? So me and my husband often pray and we go, how do you feel? Do you feel like you want to do it another year? Do you want to? And so we take it moment by moment. And he, like, we just wanted two services. And he said, so he was like, so, you know,

for a season we're going to have to do both. He was like, but I understand. And when you need to rest, just tell me. And so we give each other that, that gauge, other that gauge, that space to be human. And my sister, my oldest sister, I was called, all right now, I've seen too much on social media. I need you to go somewhere and put your feet in the sand. I'd be like, okay, Lili. So a good circle of people helped me balance. Okay, seven sisters. First of all, I love when your birthday comes around because it's like a chain thing from

this point forward because then Tina's birthday, Goo's birthday, I'm in the family, first of all. Tell Ms. Honey call me. Period. And then my sister, Alayna. Okay. What is this like? Seven Sisters.

What is this? It is wonderfully chaotic. Yeah. It is beautiful and rapid. Okay, can I ask you before you answer fully? What is this? It is wonderfully chaotic. Yeah. It is beautiful and rapid. Okay, can I ask you before you answer fully? I want to know the difference between having seven sisters now as an adult woman versus when you guys were younger and all in the house together.

So younger, it's just these little people keep coming from mom, enough. I felt like I loved being a big sister, but they didn't listen to me. So we screamed a lot. But my mother didn't let us say, I hate you. She didn't let us slam doors. If we did, she made us hug one another. So I hated hugging my sisters when I was younger because hug was a punishment for y'all just finished fighting.

Now go hug her and hold her a little longer. So we didn't hug growing up because it was part of punishment. But it was just always laughter. We were really poor. We moved a lot, didn't have a lot. But we were still the Atkins girls who sang. So people were looking at us and I just, I was like, dang, can we have something other than government cheese? Like, what is this?

But my mom was this beautiful woman and my father this charismatic man that everybody loved my parents. And so I saw them, but I didn't know them as I know them as an adult. So it was a child that just mom and dad, right? And then I began to see them as human because my parents divorced each other three times. Married and divorced each other three times. Really? Like, this is what y'all going to do.

I enjoy this foolishness, cause huh, cause what is y'all doing? Cause huh. The last time we said, I'm going to need y'all to stay together because our hearts can't take it anymore. No, stop doing this to me. Stop doing this to me. I'm gonna need y'all to stay together because our hearts can't take it anymore. No, stop doing this to me.

Stop doing this to me. But my father, before he passed, he came over and he said, I just want to have some real conversations with you. And he said, why do you think I kept coming back? He said, because your mom was all I wanted. He said, we didn't learn to speak the same language. We didn't go to therapy. He was like, but your mom was all I wanted.

He said, and I couldn't get it right. He said, and to this day, I don't know why. And he said, but my issues with expressing love and receiving love, I believe was a part of the problem. So they really showed their humanity to me when they got older. So me as a big sister, back to that part with my sisters, we all have different experiences with our parents in that way. So we lean on each other to understand,

okay, so what did they say to you? And put the pieces of our childhood life and our parents' life together to understand what it meant for my older sister, to understand what it means for my younger sister, which is very different. Because you know how you parent the oldest one and the youngest grand. Oh yeah, totally different.

So us realizing the effect it had on us as grown women has caused us to have to repent to each other, see each other differently. Because unfortunately my father had favorites, which I was one of. And it's, it still rattles me a little bit because I know what it did to my sisters who were not treated as a favorite. And it still rattles me a little bit, because I know what it did to my sisters who were not treated as a favorite.

So growing up as a little girl with them, we're sisters, but we're sisters in a different way. We're partners, we're counselors, we're cheerleaders, we're, you know what I mean? Sometimes we're prison guards, like, no, you're not, no, you're not going. You're not calling him no more. It's over, it's done. You know, sometimes we? Sometimes we're prison guards, like, no, you're not going. You're not calling him no more. It's over, it's done.

You know, sometimes we're that for each other. But it's like when you're older, you get to put different pieces of your life together with your siblings, because everybody has a different experience with your parents. Where one may be like, mommy, mommy. And one's like, I mean, y'all love her.

She cool, right? You know what I'm saying? And you're like, what is wrong with you? But everybody won't have the same experience. I don't really know how to explain that. And I know it sounds probably all over the place, but that's where I am truthfully with my sisters. We're on a text chain.

We do Zoom calls. We get together. And when it gets really rough, we just go to somebody's house and knock on the door and be like, uh-uh. Nope, you're not shutting me out. Yeah. We get it straight. We cry, we fuss, we're honest. All of that. You know, we keep it

a buck with each other. We have to. Because now we have daughters and so we're like, how do we help them avoid some stuff? How do we teach them what we didn't learn until we was 26 and 27? So, family is an interesting journey, but I see the godness in it because it's just like the forgiveness, the understanding, the patience, you know, coming through for somebody, you know, trying to understand when they break your heart, because siblings will break your heart, but you have to forgive and love them. Because I don't want my Thanksgiving to be weird. I don't want birthday parties to be weird. And we're going on Thanksgiving.

You're coming. You're not going to nobody else. We're never not doing that. So what do we need to figure out? Right, what do we need to figure out? That is probably a statement that we say to each other all the time. How we figured this out. My father once said that family is love's gymnasium.

And I feel like that that is completely true, whether it's your spouse, your children, your siblings. I'm at this like raising your parents stage of my life, because they don't. Girl. It ain't no way you raising me and you making these choices. It ain't.

Is this the same, these are the same people? I know I'm not fighting with you about taking no medicine. I know I'm not. I know we taking no medicine. I know I'm not. I know we both heard what the doctor said. It's really interesting. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I'm wondering if families love gymnasium, what muscle are you currently working out

as it relates to raising daughters at this stage of their lives. Why don't they just listen? I don't want to do that. Why don't they know everything? You can't listen. I told you that over there. Why are we over here? Nothing to listen to when you know everything. My mom's the best statement she ever made to my sisters and I was,

you will run into brick walls. I don't want you to run into brick walls. But I won't be able to stop you. So, I'll just be there with a bandaid. Yeah. And that's what she would say. I'll be there with a bandaid. And I had all kind of bandaids on my head. Yeah. So I'm assuming I'll just get some nice cute band-aids for my daughters. They got them real clear ones now that you can't even tell they there. No, no, no. I'm getting the ones that you can see.

I want you to remember that I had to patch this thing up. I had this rule with my daughters. One's 15, she's turning 16 and then there's a nine-year-old. And obviously, this 15-year-old is influencing the nine-year-old with skincare and makeup and all of the things. And I had this rule, whatever you ask me, I will always answer. Because if you're at an age where you can ask it, I want you to know that if you ask me, I will tell you the truth.

And that has been one of the ugliest statements I have ever made. I am the truth. Because the things that they want information on, I would rather not tell you. I just would rather you not know it. And yet realizing that if I don't tell you, you're going to ask someone and they're going to give you an answer that I may not be able to stand by has really, I mean, I just pray. I'm just like, Lord, I'm doing the best I can and you're going to have to do the rest. Because that's what I got right now.

That's all I got. And you know, what I do is I go to my sisters and I'll say, all right, I gave my answer, but I know she don't believe me. So depending on what it is, I know which sister she'll go to. They'll go to Alayna for some things. They'll go to Google for some things. They'll go to Auntie Lily because Lily is just nice and she's going to give them a good answer.

They don't play with Auntie Tina at all. They want nothing but the truth, the bitter truth. Listen, Tina might say, no, say, now that ain't that stupid. That don't sound stupid coming out of your mouth. But Google will be like, that's not the best niece. OK, let's, OK, all right. But Google going to let them get away with the murder. I believe that about her.

She's probably, I don't, you know, you got so many sisters, I don't know all of them. But Google gives me, she gives me favorite sisters, she favorite auntie. She gives me sliding you candy and doing things Absolutely. So when they first became teenagers, they always wanted to go to Google's house I said why don't would you let them do that? I don't let them do my house break it down. That's my business I'm an auntie and I got rights And she's not lying but as long as you, as long as you take them over there, that's fine.

Absolutely, absolutely. But this love, Jim, is with my daughters. I can't even tell you. A little patience, understanding. And sometimes I'm just flat out confused if I'm just honest there. I can't even. Yeah. You know, because you can tell them and tell them with love and sometimes they just don't hear it. And the Holy Spirit told me, you can't prevent

their testimony. You can't shield them from their testimony. Some of what they'll go through is for God to get the glory later in their life. And so, as much as I've tried to shield, and Christa is very upset because Zaya has all kinds of liberties and freedoms that Krista did not have. And so, yeah, I'm just trying to figure it out. Like Zaya was able to tell her dad about a boy that liked her. Krista said it and he was like, you don't like him and he don't like you and go to school and tell him. Whereas my son has a little girlfriend and, you know, Zia's like,

oh, I like this boy or... So it's just, I don't know. But my father didn't, the boy thing wasn't a thing for my dad. If I told him I liked a boy, he'd say, really? Why you like him? What's his name? And at this time it was elementary school. So I'd be like, well, we played tag at school. And so he never made the boy thing a bad thing.

So I feel comfortable talking to him. And he would be honest about certain things. So I'm keeping all those messages and trying to remember for my daughters that I don't put them in a bottle, that I don't parent from fear or pain. And sometimes that's what parents do. They parent from fear or pain.

And so I'm trying to be honest and allow them to have their lives and their experiences and just guide them as best I can. I wish that I could talk to you for another hour because I just feel like we could cover so many things and that we just just literally brush the surface. But I just cannot tell you how much I admire you as a woman as a woman, just a woman, like forget icon. I mean woman. I mean the way you show up in the world, the way that you are so humble, your vulnerability, but then your power and your strength, your confidence. Like I just love who you are as a woman. And then to be

exposed to the extent that you have led us with reality, television and social media to who you are on the inside, outside of the Grammys, outside of the sold out towards just how you navigate marriage and family and children has been such an inspiration. But I think even now, as I continue to step into a space of leadership in the kingdom, a space of visibility, you just remind me that you can do it and remain whole, that you can do it and remain authentic, that you can do it and remain authentic, that you can sometimes maybe make missteps

and own up to them and move forward. You just give me permission to be myself. And I'm just so grateful for who you are, the GOAT. You are the GOAT. Oh, Sarah, thank you so much. You're not stepping into it, honey. You've been here, honey. And you've been shining and you've been encouraging.

You've been empowering. You've been kicking the devil's butt. And we are just so honored and proud of you in these pictures, these photos. Let me tell you, okay. So I have a secret thing with J.Bowlin. Every time I see you in an outfit, I go, you didn't put me in that.

Get them. Every time. Get them. Get them together Every time. Get them. Get them together. It can depend on a text from me when I see you and it's just like, oh my. Is it because I'm older you didn't put me in that? Is it? He'd be like, please. So I just, I love and celebrate you so much anytime you need me.

Anytime. Just pick up the phone. I'm praying for you. I'm rooting for you. I know this will not be easy, but you are equipped and call for such a time as this and have been for quite some time. It's all in there. It's like a seed, the oak tree, the seed is in there, even in seed form. It's just growing and flourishing. And as your branches reach higher and higher, and as you continue to touch the world, I believe God is pleased. I really, really do. So I'll continue to pray for you and lift you.

Because I love you, girl. I love you too. I love you too. Thank you. Let me tell you, now that is how you lead in love and humility and honesty, authenticity, and transparency. I feel like this combo was packed with so much light, laughter and just little nuggets that you'll want to keep tucked away in your spirit. It's always a gift to hear from my good sis, Erica, and I pray that this episode leaves each of you with a fresh perspective and a little extra fire.

Speaking of fire, if you got a burning question or a testimony you want to share on the podcast, hit me up at 214-790-7871 and leave a message. Tell me what's on your heart. Don't be shy. I want to hear from you. And I want to thank God for you and for this podcast. And I'm just thinking about my girl who called me talking about how do I fully trust God, I have a sneaky suspicion that that is the prayer of many of you who are listening or tuning in. And so Holy Spirit, I pray specifically when I pray lately, I've been speaking directly to the

Holy Spirit because that is the gift that Jesus left with us, the gift of the Holy Spirit. And in the Holy Spirit, we have a helper, we have a counselor, we have a guide, we have a spiritual being, a spiritual person living on the inside of us, whose sole objective is to help us be transformed into the image of Christ to become more like God, an imitator of God. So when I pray to the Holy Spirit, I'm just giving this little caveat. When I pray to the Holy Spirit, I am just giving this a little caveat. When I pray to the Holy Spirit, I am praying that the Holy Spirit will help lead us into truth.

And so Holy Spirit, I thank you for where we are at this point in our journey is a place where you can locate us, a place where you can lead us, a place where you can comfort us and guide us. I thank you, Holy Spirit, that you don't just know the heart and mind of God well,

but you also know our heart and mind well. You know where we're struggling, you know where we're putting pressure on ourselves, you know where we're nervous, where we're hopeful, where we are afraid. And so I thank you, Holy Spirit, that you desire to give us power for the journey, the power to hang on, the power to see, the power to hope, the power to forgive.

And so, Holy Spirit, I'm asking for a fresh outpouring of your Spirit, that through the Holy Spirit we would become more like Jesus and would embrace our identity as children of God and that we would trust our Father, that we would trust the heart of God concerning us. So God, I'm praying that you would allow us to experience your heart today, that we would undeniably have an encounter that says, that was God and he loves me and he sees me, that we would be like Hagar and know you as the God who sees.

Thank you for those who are listening. May they embrace this season of their life with hope and optimism because they know that no matter where they are, you're there with them. Thank you for this podcast. In Jesus' name I pray, amen. Okay, I love you guys. We'll talk next week.

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