Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Finding God In The Shame w/ Lisa Harper

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Some conversations feel like a hug you didn’t know you needed. This is one of them. SJR and Lisa Harper pull up to talk about the kind of grace that finds you in the middle of your mess, the love of God that never walks away, and what it means to grow through criticism without losing your softness. They unpack ministry wounds, performance-based faith, recovering from religious shame, and how to hold your calling without breaking your heart. This episode is a full-circle moment for the girls who’ve wrestled with not being “enough” for the Church but know they’re still called. If you’ve ever felt like you're building something while battling what’s behind you, go ahead and lean into this conversation.

If the Lord has made it clear that you are supposed to be in that space, heavy on the IF, okay, heavy on the IF, it is in my belief that the Lord sees you and the Lord has plans to prosper and multiply you in that space. Theology is not about accruing datum about who God is. Theology is about intimacy with Jesus. And that should translate into more healthy relationships with the other image bearers we get to rub shoulders with.

I am both back from Ghana and not back from Ghana at the same time. Do you understand what I'm saying? I cannot catch you up on what has not occurred yet, but I am on my way, and I am going to share any and everything that is connected to our trip. So hold what you got, hold what you got.

But this episode is one that I feel like you're going to fully enjoy. I would tell you how I'm doing, but it would sound just like I was doing in the last episode because I may be recording these on the same day, but don't worry about it. Calm down. Everything's fine.

When I do next week's episode, you're going to be minding so much of my business that you are going to wish that I was still back in Ghana. So without further ado, I'm going to jump right into your business because I have none in mind to currently share. Hey, Sarah. First of all, love you. Just all that God is doing through your ministry. My question is, girl, so I've stepped into more of a leadership role at my church and it's my first time really working in ministry and being this close up. I've experienced a lot of church hurt growing up. I always said I never wanted to get this close to church and really be involved in this way because I've seen just all the things that happen behind the scenes.

So naturally, just knowing that God is developing my own leadership, and I've always been a leader, it's hard for me to just to kind of sit back on the sidelines. And so sure, I got involved. As I've gotten involved, as I've grown, as I've gotten promoted at my church, the person that is above me, right, that I report to, Hoochow is a lot. And she is a lot. And I think we have just a difference

in how we see ministry, how we see people. And that can be really frustrating. And so my question is, how do you honor, right, up, down, all the way around? But how do I honor her, right? When I've seen just like, just some real shady things that she's done, right? Like not being consistent, taking ownership,

and just like poor leadership qualities that like, we just don't lead the same way, basically. And so my question is is is how to honor her And also how I pray forgot to remove her potentially from the role Which I just don't think that she should be in right and I don't think is really serving the team Especially given the team that she leads in the best way So yeah, give me advice would love to hear your thoughts on delegation So, yeah, give me advice. Would love to hear your thoughts on delegation,

just around how to honor people that don't always honor you and that don't have the same shared vision for your team, which you're trying to grow and really deeply care about. Love y'all, have a great day. You know what I absolutely love about what you just did in asking your question is you said, I love y'all. So shout out to the delegation. She is sending love your way. Man, this question is so real.

My heart hurts. Anytime that someone has experienced church hurt and as a leader now in not just a church, but in a faith space, I'm always trying to be so careful about how people are treated on the professional side of things while also navigating the ministerial side of things because sometimes it can be difficult to separate the two when there are expectations related to your job description and function and you're not able to meet those, it's never easy to have a separation or a termination and yet because it's coming from a space where you're maybe being spiritually edified or should be spiritually edified,

I feel like it's different than having friction at a job. It's difficult to separate the two. I feel for you and I feel for anyone who's in this position and I know that as leaders we don't always get it right and sometimes there's serious abuse taking place in the roles and I'm not convinced that the people who are abusing people even recognize it as abuse. I think that sometimes it is the culture of the organization and the culture is toxic or the culture has been accepted by so many that They don't recognize that it is toxic and abusive. So I'm sorry that you've had those experiences I want to start with you considering

Why are you in this role? You said that you're kind of a natural-born leader and that you know You're not one to sit still, that you aid and help where help is needed, which I think is beautiful. I want to ask one, do you feel a sense of calling to this particular lane and role? Do you feel like God has made it abundantly clear

that you are supposed to be in this position or is it something that came naturally and organic to you, you saw a need and you fit in? I want to qualify that not that there's a right or wrong answer, it could be a combination of them both, but I always like to start with, okay, so God, you got me into this. Now if God didn't get me into this, it doesn't mean that I necessarily have to get out, but it is like, God, where are you in it? And so I think really considering that as first, if God got you into this, then becoming

sensitive to how the Holy Spirit wants to utilize you in whatever's taking place in the culture would be my number one prayer to ask God to highlight how you can serve in this role and in this capacity, regardless of how unhealthy it is. I am reminded of Genesis, I want to say it's 15, read your whole Bible, you'll find it. No, JK, I'm going to pull it up for you. Is it Genesis 15? Genesis 16.

Genesis 16, when Hagar, who was the mistress of Sarah and Abraham, takes off into the wilderness because I think I talked about this a couple weeks ago because she was being mistreated by Sarah and she was like, you know what? I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress because Homegirl is dealing with me harshly and she is who has been put in charge and I cannot stand to be subjected to someone who cannot treat me well, especially in such a vulnerable role, right? She's carrying Abraham's seed and the Lord comes to her and he says, return to your mistress

and submit yourself under her hand. Hold up, Lord. Like, wait a minute. You want me to submit to someone who was treating me harshly. May this make sense. And the Lord continues and says to her, I will multiply your descendants exceedingly so that they shall not be counted for multitude. And then he goes on to tell her you're pregnant, you're going to have a son.

His name is going to be Ishmael because the Lord has heard your affliction. I heard you. I heard what you were going through and he's got like,. And he gives her a prophecy about what's gonna happen. And she calls the place that the Lord met her, you are the God who sees. If the Lord has made it clear that you are supposed to be in that space, even if there is something that is taking place

that is not healthy that you're being exposed to, if the, heavy on the IF, okay, heavy on the IF, if the Lord has placed you in there, it is my belief that the Lord sees you and the Lord has plans to prosper and multiply you in that space. Now, let me fix that, because it's not necessarily in that space where he prospers and multiplies Hagar,

because there is another moment, I think it's not necessarily in that space where he prospers and multiplies. Hey, Gar, because there is another moment. I think it's in Genesis 21 where the Lord tells Abraham to let her go. There is a moment where that season of being submitted to something that was harsh, where God makes it clear that's no longer her portion. It's time for her to go. And so I would continue to check back in with God. The Lord, if he sent you there, there may be a season where he's like, stay, keep your feet planted.

And then there may be a season where he's like, you know what, it's time for you to go. The purpose that I had you serving in that season is no longer useful for the next season of your life or their life. And so the Lord will release you. On a practical side, I will say this. I would get to know the person who you are currently experiencing who has an opportunity to grow. By getting to know them, it may take some twisting and some contorting because you have a perspective of her, but to understand who she is, I think as friendly as you can

make it, as curious as you can become, as complimentary as you can become about the things that she's done well, asking maybe why certain choices were made. I really thought that that was a good move that you made. How did you learn to make those types of decisions? How did you learn to create whatever that was that you did? If you can find something, you may have to ask the Lord if you can find something to begin to build relationship because a lot of times people who we place judgments on

who are harsh, sometimes they're misunderstood, sometimes they're understood clearly, but it's the only way they know how to function, the only way they know how to communicate. It doesn't give them a pass, but it helps us to no longer expect something that they can no longer give. In the process of removing that expectation, it might grant us an opportunity to have a healthier perspective on what we want to see change within the organization and within them.

I would get to know them a little bit better. If you are able to build rapport, and that's another heavy on the IF, if you are able to build rapport with that person, then I would say that it may create a space where you're able to offer them a perspective that helps to shift the culture in a more positive direction. I hope that is helpful. I cannot wait to hear what the delegation thinks of this because I am sure many people have had experiences with leadership that is difficult to follow.

And hopefully they can give us some additional tips and tools to point us in the right direction. Coming up as a younger woman in ministry, I can remember thinking to myself, I really wish that I had a spiritual mother. There is something unique about being related to women in ministry and understanding the different obstacles and lessons that they have had to learn.

And from a distance, I admired a lot of people, but when I would meet them face to face, it just, the vibes didn't, the vibes didn't catch. And so I realize now that part of what God was doing was really allowing me to observe and to experience mentorship directly from Him. So maybe that's a word for somebody. If you've been thinking to yourself,

man, I really wish that I had a mentor in this area of my life where I sense that I'm growing and developing, but God hasn't highlighted anyone. Sometimes it's because God wants to be that one who creates your definition and sets the path for you. But then there comes a moment where the Lord begins to bring in mentors. And sometimes it's from afar, from a distance.

It's not necessarily someone you can walk life out with. For me, that mentorship came in the person of Lisa Harper. I can't even tell you the first time that we met, I just know that from hearing her speak, that I was moved by the way that she understood God. Man, the way she talks about God makes me want to get to know him too. And I feel like that is the most powerful thing

that anyone could ever say about us. The way that you experienced Jesus makes me want to have my own encounter as well. And from following her from a distance, I mean, I listened to her podcast, Back Porch Theology, and I listened to many of her messages because I am just fascinated by the study that she has dedicated to the Bible and the interpretations and translations that she has offered many of us who are still learning

and growing as well. I'm sure that if she were listening to this, she would say that she's still learning and growing as well. I'm sure that if she were listening to this, she would say that she's still learning and growing too, but she's certainly sharing much of her wisdom and knowledge. I am looking forward to this conversation with her. I feel like it's going to be a blessing and one that you truly benefit from. It is not lost on me that Father's Day is around the corner if you're listening to this when it first airs.

And as many holidays, it can be challenging because it can bring up incredible memories of fathers who were present emotionally, physically, financially in our lives in a way that made us feel seen and valued. And then it can be difficult for people who maybe had a physical parent, but they weren't emotionally present, or maybe you didn't have either, maybe you had those things and that person is gone. I know for sure that I've had my share of daddy wounds and daddy lessons and daddy blessings.

And so I feel like to a certain degree, I can relate to many of the scenarios that exist as it relates to fatherhood. But I don't believe that there has been any gift that has been greater than me coming to know God as Father and to know the love of God, not the judgment of God. Though the love of God does have conviction and transformation in it, there was this fear that I had of God, this idea that I had disappointed him, that he would turn his back on me,

that he wouldn't find me worthy or valuable. And I believe that lie. And that lie had a lot to do with the decisions and choices that I made, because if God doesn't want you and your parents are disappointed in you, and the church is looking at you crazy, then you got to figure things out on your own

or find someone who will make you feel loved. And I took a lot of twists and turns, and fortunately, I turned in a direction that led me into the presence of God. It is my prayer that as you are listening to this podcast, especially with Father's Day around the corner, that no matter where you are on the this podcast, especially with Father's Day around the corner, that no matter where you are on the twists and turns of life, that this podcast leads you

closer to the presence of God and that you would too come to know Him as Father. And that you would lean into the love, to the provision, to the comfort, to the peace, to the presence of God and its ability to heal and cover and lead and guide and restore all of who you are. Lisa Harper has been instrumental in me having many of those encounters and I believe that she'll do the same for you. So I am looking forward to sharing this episode with you. I will say, though she needs no introduction at all, that she is an incredible gift. She is a Bible teacher who is so hilarious that you almost don't even realize.

It's like taking medicine that's got chocolate in it. You don't even realize that you are being healed because you're laughing. She's got so much humility and she drops gems about navigating faith in a critical world and why community can't just be cute. It has to be truthful. And because Lisa can't help but be Lisa,

she had me laughing one minute and reflecting the next. She's got a new book out. It's called A Jesus-Shaped Life. And it's for anybody who's ever felt like theology was too complicated or too far out of reach. Because, spoiler alert, it's not. And so I want you all to look up this book, A Jesus-Shaped Life. For those of you who are on a journey, you're learning, you're growing, I believe that it's going to help you exponentially. learning, you're growing, I believe that it's going to help you exponentially. So let's get into it. Okay, so you have to know this about me.

I don't like dogs. No. Okay, you might as well just told me you don't read the Bible. I am shocked and horrified. Let me tell you, they've never been my thing. He is going to totally snow you. You're going to be in love with him in a few weeks. At least it's happening. Like, I don't want anyone in the house to know but like there's no reason for him to be in my office

While I'm working, but I'm like if you're quiet you can stay in here I'm just gonna move his toy that makes noise and then I'll sit down I could not be happier that you're a dog convert our last golden doodle. We bought from a Bucky's Really? Yes, because I was with these kind of stiff Christians coming back from this conference and they didn't want to go to Buc-ee's. I was like, Buc-ee's is epic. It is like a fair and Walmart got married and had a baby. It is so fun. People watch. And so we pull up to Buc-ee's and they were kind of grumpy and I see these little boys in the back of a Suburban and they have a homemade sign that

says golden doodles for sale. So I just wanted to go over and encourage him for being so entrepreneurial in the Buckees parking lot. And he goes, do you want to hold one ma'am? And he put, I already had two dogs. He put this Golden Doodle in my arms, and one of the stiff saints walked up and went, you will not buy a puppy in a Buckees parking lot.

And I went, watch me. I had bought him. his name is Bucky. He's a year old now. So we've got, we love dogs. Okay. There's, I, what I love about you is that like, you are so brilliant that the stuffy Christians welcome you in. You just know all the things and there's so much respect for your knowledge, for your presentation.

And yet you resist the culture of arrogance that can often follow those who have pursued academia in a way that sets them apart from other people. I love Back porch theology because it is an opportunity for those of us who are like, I love the Lord. I love reading the Bible. Understanding context would be nice, but I don't know where to start. It feels like you just tear down all of the walls, all of the misnomers, all of the fears and anxieties of asking dumb questions. And you say the things that people don't say. And then you say the things that people don't say and then you say the things that people need to hear in the way that they can understand. And I think that that's one of the reasons why I glean so much from your podcast.

Was this a decision as you like, you've probably always been brilliant in so many different capacities, but as you realize, and I'm going to talk, I'm going to talk a little cultural, okay? So I'll translate. I'm going to talk a little cultural, okay? So I'll translate. I'm going to give you a little ebonics. Lisa, when you realized that you were that girl, and if you haven't, I'm here to tell you you're that girl. I'm smarter than the average bear. I'm one of the sharper knives in the drawer.

That's my identity. When you started to realize that, at what point do you say, you know what? I am not going to allow my intellect to become a weapon. I'm not gonna weaponize it against other people. I'm gonna use it as a tool that helps to build and edify others. Like, was that a decision or is that just your natural posture? First of all, you're very, very, very kind

and nothing if not a pastoral Barnabas. So thank you for seeing me through rose-colored glasses. No, Pastor Sarah, I ran scared for so many years. I've been walking with Jesus now for 55 years. I'm 61. But when I first put my hope in Jesus, there was a whole lot of sexual abuse kind of in that same era of my life. So for decades, my strongest feeling was dirty and damaged.

So I believed God had delivered me. I just didn't think He liked me very much. So I didn't see myself as remotely capable in anything. So I never saw myself as a, I still don't see myself as one of the sharpest knives in the drawer. I just was surviving. So I used what small intellect I had, big words, and I used humor as a defense mechanism so that if I walked into a room, I could read a room, discern a room so that I would figure out who was most likely to pull me into a dark closet. So some of the gifts God gave me for survival, I held onto far too long and they became ammunition.

And so I think I was a recovering fairy seat for a long time. I was just so afraid somebody would look under the hood of my life and call me a fraud. And so I pursued academia theology really as a kind of camouflage. So nobody would look behind that and see how lacking I was. And I think because I've been so wounded, you know, if you come from that place where you've been hurt, you go, I never want to be that person. I never want to use anything God and His mercy has allowed me to see a little more clearly, even though we see through the veil dimly. I never want to use that as something that could wound somebody else. That's the antithesis of Christoformity of being shaped like Jesus. else. That's the antithesis of Christoformity of being shaped like Jesus. And I just think

vitriol, we see so much of it now. It's shocking to me how we've got so many Christians who are using a platform to rip other Christians. I'm like, hey, there's a lot of theological nuance that Scripture isn't clear on, but He's really clear on how He hates one who causes dissension among the body of believers. That's not a metaphor. We're a body of Christ. So, when you've got an arm fighting another arm, I'm like, ooh, la. Y'all are going to have a little apartment with camels with irritable bowel syndrome as roommates in glory. You keep that mess up. So, no, I, goodness, that's why I love theology, Pastor Sarah, is you break theology down into the word that it comes from, theos is God, logos is conversation. So at its core, theology is conversations about God.

To have conversations about God means you not only lean in, you have to listen to somebody else. So I think intellectual humility is really key when it comes to understanding who our Creator Redeemer is, and then He condescends to speak to us, to give us this love letter we call the Bible, to give us Holy Spirit. He condescends to make us understand at least some semblance of who he is. Kasha, if you don't start with humility and gratitude, you've missed the whole point.

Because theology is not about accruing datum about who God is. Theology is about intimacy with Jesus. And then that should translate into more healthy relationships with the other image-bearers we get to rub shoulders with. That makes me that makes me unexpectedly emotional

Because I'm sorry for the way some Christians have treated you and your family it's it's scared people It's jealous, you know anger is not a primary emotion. I don't think in my experience It's usually a secondary emotion usually comes from someone who feels small. And so they attack somebody else who has a larger platform or a greater gift, kind of to pull themselves up. And vitriol is not a virtue. And the fact that God has allowed you and your family to have a really big mantle and to impact so many millions of people for the sake of the gospel. I know you take a lot of hits for that.

And I'm so sorry. Thank you for staying the course. Thank you for staying on the wall. I think, man, last year was like one of the hardest years for me, I think, in ministry, just because I kind of came into this, I say on accident, but I believe that it was a part of God's plan for my life. And I felt like because of who my dad is, that I've had to learn with an audience, you know?

And I've had to grow with an audience. And I think that because of my nature, I would rather just kind of be like, no, thank you, or get someone else to do it. Or so I think it's easy for me to believe that I'm not qualified. And so I always tell people that I feel like the criticism that hurts the most are the ones that echo and insecurity that already exists on the inside. Absolutely.

So I think that like this year, or last year rather, because I took so many hits, I think that like this year or last year rather, because I took so many hits, I think it just really made me wrestle with God about like this call and does it matter? And am I leading people incorrectly? Like I think I went through a lot last year and I think I just kind of find settled. I think I had so many moments where I'm like, God, if I'm not supposed to do this when I preach, don't show up.

Like when I get there, let me fall flat out on my face because I do not want to be leading people in a way that doesn't give you the glory, doesn't lead them to you. And like God will show up and then I'll be like, well, then show me how to deal with the heat that's coming my way. And I feel like whether you're in ministry or just doing that next big brave thing that God's called you to do, that sometimes we do it with wobbly legs and trying to find a sense of freedom in the midst of all of that can be really hard. Yeah, Pastor Sarah, what, gosh, I'm not wise enough to wrap words around this.

You have a gravitas and a grace that really only comes through the fire. I think our mutual friend, Chris Kane, talks a lot about how the best oil only comes from a lot of pressure from that press. The clearest diamonds only come from pressure. And so there's a grace and a gravitas Holy Spirit has given you that allows you to be a Nehemiah,

that allows you to stay on the wall that he's called you to in spite of all the distraction. And I think that's a, it's a beautiful gift, but it's a real heavy gift. And he decided your shoulders were strong enough to carry that kind of gravitas. And so I was talking with somebody yesterday about how there's so much rhetoric in the culture we live in. I think it's amplified by social media because everybody can be a critic.

And there's no accountability for critique now. You can just sling hate from your phone and then you walk away and you don't realize you know how much glass that rock broke because you just threw it. And I think as hard as that is, the platform for grace is also illuminated. Because when you see somebody take

a hit and they receive it with grace instead of retribution, and they really let the Lord be their vindicator and the lifter of their head, I think when our reputations matter less than God's, Our reputations matter less than God's. That's when you see the gospel echoing above that den of just all the discord and the diatrib we have now. And I think your testimony is louder. It's amplified because of what he allows you to walk through. Believe me, I mean, if I had the names of any of your haters, I would tackle them and punch them in the throat because it drives me bananas.

And I think it's such a distraction. I'm like, Lord have mercy. We have millions of unbelievers who've never heard the gospel and the church is becoming a barrier instead of a bridge. It drives me bananas. But I also go, I don't want to come off my wall. I want to keep running hard toward Jesus. And somebody asked me yesterday about, there's a facet of people, and I won't say the whole

acronym, but part of their acronym is Young Angry. And I said, you know what? You have very few old angry such and such. Because after you live a little bit of life and you fail, or you have a prodigal child, or you lose somebody you love, or something you've said that was unintentionally unbiblical becomes blasted all over social media, there's a softness about you and you realize you're not the hero of any story Jesus is. And so I think the people who are the loudest, angriest detractors, give them a little more humanity, give them

a little more time to live, and they'll realize, well, as argue about things that really weren't leading other people to the gospel. So if we can agree on Christ crucified and resurrected and on the authority of scripture, I really don't care that much what your eschatology is. If we both believe in the supremacy of Jesus Christ, then you're my sister, you're my brother and I'll go to the mat for you. Okay, so you said that you're recovering Pharisees, which that alone just gave me so much hope because I love you so much. I'm like, I could love these people

one day. If I love Lisa, I could love these people one day. I feel like one of the things that you said about losing this idea of protecting my reputation is one of the things that the Lord highlighted for me in the process. I'm hypersensitive to it because I feel like I've had to protect what was left of my reputation after making choices and experiencing different things in life. And so really just letting go of this idea of I am somehow in need to protect my reputation that I will be devalued or seen as less worthy if someone says something about me. I feel like the Lord really worked all of those things out even though I think that was the excuse he used to bring me to that space of like

confrontation with my own being and my own way of showing up in the world. And it just reminded me of that connection of you saying that you were a recovering Pharisee and I wonder was there any moment in particular where you were like, you know what, I have to change the way that I'm thinking, seeing, believing if I'm going to be as, I'm going to use the word free because that's what we're talking about. If I'm going to be as free as possible to be who God's called me to be, to serve this word, to show up in this faith and in this strength. Was there a moment that was a turning point for you?

Oh, there have been many, because I think we're obviously in a constant process of being shaped to the conformity of Jesus Christ. And I want to, by the end of my life, I want to look more like Jesus than I've ever looked. So I'm always growing. I think anytime you think, okay, I've got it, you are in trouble, baby. We should always be in the process of being conformed more and more and more into the image of Christ. So there will be a moment, I'm sure this week, where I recognize my inner Pharisee. And the Pharisees weren't all bad.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee and he gave Jesus his barrow plot, you know, I mean, Joseph of Arimathea and then Nicodemus was a Pharisee. But the Pharisees used knowledge as armament, as something that was self-protective, which I did for so many years. I thought if I can just sound smart or be funny, then nobody will see the real me because if they see the real me, surely they will turn up their nose and walk away because I just had such shame. I was really distorted by shame.

And so I think, you know, when a Pharisee encounters the love of Jesus Christ, then some of that self-protection begins to dissipate. So I think if we're honest, all of us should be Pharisees in recovery because I think all of us tend to curate ourselves and we put our best image forward, whether it's we filtered something on social media or, you know, we're in Spanx, they're rolling even as I speak. Whatever it is, we want to present the best version of ourselves because we live in a culture that is so performative that if I perform well and I give you what you want or what you expected, then you clap for me

or you buy my book or whatever it is. And so when you face that kind of transactional relationship, you don't ever really feel safe bringing all of you. And so, I love that even scripture, Jesus, over and over and over again, our creator, Redeemer, over and over again, you see him go, bring me everything. Don't just bring me your perky, bring me your tears. I count your tears. Bring me your grief. I mean, goodness gracious, the book of Malachi, the whole thing is God's people waving their fist at God, going, if you're such a good God, why do our lives look like this? And instead of eviscerating them, God says, Christmas is around the corner. I mean, he effectively puts his gentle hands around their raised fist and says, I know

it's hard. I know you don't understand. He tells him that the messenger you seek is coming, Jesus is around the corner. And then he says, I, the Lord, do not change so that you descendants of Jacob will not be destroyed. In other words, I know you don't get it. I know your tendency is to curate yourself and just present the very best image of you because people have kicked you to the curb. People have abandoned you. I'm not leaving.

He says that over and over again from Genesis to Revelation. I see you, I love you, I'm not leaving. I see you, I love you, I'm not leaving. How much do we experience that from other image bears? Pretty rarely. Because we can say I love you unconditionally, but most of us have been loved with some kind of condition. If you do these things, I'll stay.

But if you do this, you cross that line, baby, I'm gone. And so I think we're all in the place of going, oh, wow, I need to operate out of the security of God's love. Otherwise, I will treat other people the same way I'm afraid of being treated, which is to be discarded, to be abandoned. And so, yeah, I mean, I've done some really dumb things, Pastor Sarah, and I've been really

unkind. If I'm not walking with the Holy Spirit, the first place to drift is a critical spirit. So I have been such a Jezebel. I have been looked Christian, maybe used Christianese, but I think it's the places where I go, oh my heavens, even then, he didn't kick me to the curb. When I was such an ugly version of a Christian, he stepped into my muck and he held me. Well then you go, I'll stop fighting. I'll stop even fighting from my

own reputation. I don't. Now, if you mess with Missy, you can say anything you want about me on social media. You mess with my kid. I mean, I will cut you. I've got a gang girl up inside me if you mess with my kid. And so, I'm not saying I always respond like Gandhi. I'm just saying the more you've been held by Jesus when you least deserved it, the more grace you can extend to the haters in your life. Plus, I want accountability, but accountability comes with relationship. So Pastor Sarah, if you called me or text me and said, hey, Lisa, I just saw something and I don't think that's who you want to present to unbelievers to

the world around us. I would listen because you have the right to speak into my life and I know your motive is so that I'll be reconciled into a right relationship with God. Somebody who doesn't know me, I mean, they don't know me, they don't know the motives. I taught at a church recently and my whole message was on how there's no hierarchy in the family of God. And I was teaching on Ephraim and Ammonassah, you know, I love that passage in Genesis 48 where Jacob intentionally crosses his arms and he puts the right hand of blessing on the baby brother. Effectively, going against culture to say, no, there's

no second best in my family. There are no stepchildren in the family of God. All of you are coheirs. All of you sit at the right hand of God the Father, you're coheirs with Christ. But in teaching on that, I said, our God does play favorites, and we're all it. So I talked about how we have favoritism in humanity, but in the kingdom of God, we are all His favorite. Well, the clip this particular church chose to post only showed me saying God plays favorites. And I mean, I got so much vitriol. And of course, what happened over and over again was, this is why you don't have a woman

on a platform on a Sunday. Woman free shoot, yeah right. And I kind of want to go, actually let me give you the socio-historical exegesis of the Pauline passages that you're taking out of context regarding women and leaders. You can't go there. Those people don't know you. You just have to go. Lisa, I would go there. Humility is a good thing. And I had a publisher not too long ago, there's a couple of people, but there's one particular woman who kind of her whole organization is based on Harper as a heretic. And they said, we really think you should kind of, you know, give a rebuttal to this. And I said, no, I said, first of all, she obviously isn't very well studied

in Greek because heresis in the Greek means an intentional cutting. And I'm not intentionally cutting the truth of God's Word. I'm an ignoramus. She can call me an ignoramus because I make mistakes all the time, but I'm not a heretic because I'm not intentionally dividing the Word of God. I may interpret it differently than she does, but she probably needs to go back to Greek 101 before she uses that word. But I said, I'm not gonna print a rebuttal because what she's saying isn't true,

but I've got a whole lot of mistakes I could tell her where she could eviscerate me as doing some dumb stuff because I've done some dumb stuff. And so it's like, gosh, again, we have to go. I don't want to come off the wall of the calling God has for me, unless it's worth coming off the wall in the gospel, sharing the living unconditional hope of Jesus Christ.

That's just much more important to me than some yay-hoo who doesn't know me, but feels the need to cut my legs out from under me. This is why I say you make me want to be a better Christian. I've gone back to school to get my bachelor's and I have other aspirations, but I pray that the Lord allows me to finish because He probably had to humble me because Lisa, if I knew what you knew and someone said something to me, dinner would be late. I would be responding to that. I would take my good time. But this is why you're my mentor. This is why you're

teaching me how to balance the beauty of the knowledge with grace and wisdom. And so I honor you for that. Honestly, you do, you make me want to be a better Christian because I'm like, okay, I'm not going to weaponize because then I'm going to be guilty of doing the very things that have been done to me. The very thing they're doing. The very things.

I had pastor another, I don't know, several years ago, but a woman was mad. You know when you can see them coming, you can almost feel the heat. And she wanted to confront me at this event. And something I had said, and I may have said something really stupid, I don't remember what it was now, but something I had said had just stepped all over. She was, I mean, she had not just taken up an offense, she had fertilized it.

She was ticked. And she comes up and people try to keep her from me. And I said, no, no no no no it's okay and she just I mean she got all up in my face and and raised her voice and By the grace of God what I saw when she was yelling is I thought oh this woman is so wounded and and I'm kind of surprised I did it and I wish I did this more but I just reached toward her and hugged her and I whispered in her ear. I'm kind of surprised I did it and I wish I did this more. But I just reached toward her and hugged her. And I whispered in her ear, I'm so sorry. I stepped on your bruise.

I'm really sorry I hurt you. And she just collapsed in my arms and just began to stop. And I thought, well, if we could just see that behind some of the angry rhetoric is a person who's really been wounded. And if we could minister to the wound instead of respond to the angry vitriol. And I know we can't always do that, but man, the times in my life when I've been a total butt, it's usually that I'm afraid somebody will step on that bruise again. So I go, let me, you know, you look at what, how did Jesus respond to Judas?

He knows Judas is going to betray him and he washes his feet too. Oh my heavens to Betsy. I mean, I think I would have, I don't know, I wouldn't have washed his feet. Jesus washed his feet too and then he served in communion. That is the king of all kings condescending to wash a hater's feet. I just think there's more opportunity for ministry if we respond with mercy instead of offense. Okay, I'll write that down.

I'll do that. Listen, you model it all the time. You may not feel it, but you model it all the time. I don't always feel it, but I try, I try. You said something, and I want to preface this by saying, I've noticed something culturally that whenever we're about to, when we say things, sometimes we use blanket statements,

like in black families, in black church. So I'm going to say this, but I am also going to admit that I have never been raised in white church. And so it could be true in white church and black church. So I don't know, but I'm going to say that there seems to be a theme in black church experiences. Obviously not every black church experience, but a lot of people who I've known who've grown up in black church experiences, obviously, not every black church experience, but a lot of people who I've known,

who've grown up in black church, who have been raised by black preachers, where it felt like our relationship with God was very performative. And you have said something that I believe is worthy of unpacking as it relates to the love of God and a revelation of the love of God anchoring us, changing our response, changing how we see other people, changing how we look at our own lives, how we look

at our past, our present, our potential through the lens of God's love. And so I am wondering, there's someone listening, it's me if there's someone in me listening who is reconciling this reality of this love that is not works based, that is not performance based, that the love of God didn't pull back when you made those choices. It didn't pull back when someone hurt you or touched you, that the love of God was there and leaning in and grieving in those moments where you experienced heartbreak and experiencing joy when no one else would clap for you. How do we begin to reveal the mystery of the love of God to someone who has only known

him as a taskmaster, who will leave you, who's upset with you, whose wrath will separate you in some way, which is not scriptural at all. And yet that's all they know of them. How do we bridge that gap? Is it all right if I tell a story? Please. You know me, Pastor Sarah, I'm such a one bag, concise is not one of my special gifts.

I'll try to truncate. I was at a conference just a couple of months ago and at the very end, it was small enough that you could do this, maybe 500 women. And the woman who was, who was host to sing said, you know, instead of just saying, we're going to pray for each other, we're going to have intercessory prayer right now.

And she said, I just sense that someone here is really carrying a heavy weight of loneliness. So if you're lonely, would you stand up? And this was mostly Christian women, pretty well dressed, relatively wealthy area. So kind of everybody looked like they had it all together. And I love it when people are real, when they just kind of peel off those masks. And anyway, it was really cool because a bunch of women stood up

and there's a woman who stood up right on the front row and she just started sobbing. And I was, I was on the front row too, a little ways down from her. And I realized nobody's moving toward that woman. And I mean, she's, she's just, you know, dismantling. And I don't have a lot of gifts, but I can hug like a boss. And at my age, because I'm so much older, I can usually hug people and it's not sexual at this age.

So I can usually hug, you know, a big old boy or a woman and it's relatively safe. It's like Nana's coming up to hug you. And so I thought I'm just going to move toward her because she's alone. She's saying I'm struggling with loneliness. So I thought I'll just hug her. And a friend of mine was praying and she's kind of an introvert, so I thought it'd be a short prayer. So I just grabbed this woman and a hug, hug her. And I mean, as soon as I grab her, I mean, Sarah, she just, I mean, she's falling apart,

just sobbing. And I'm just holding her up. Well, the woman who I think is going to pray kind of a short prayer, she prays for like 17 minutes. I mean, it's like the longest prayer. And so at a point, the stage is right behind me. I can't back up. And this girl, the event was really packed.

She can't back up. So we're trapped and it's kind of awkward because I mean, we are stem to stern. Like I can feel her sweat on me. Yeah, I'm like, okay, this is actually more intimate than I think anyone of us planned. And so I thought I'm just gonna pull my head back because now it's been like 10 minutes of this like just embrace.

We can feel each other's belly fat, you know. And so I kind of back my head up and when I do she goes, I'm so sorry. And I went, oh, no, no, no, no, no. I said, this is the body of Christ. You don't have to say you're sorry. We're supposed to mourn with this. She mourns. She goes, no, I'm really sorry.

I said, no, this is what we're supposed to do in prayer. She goes, no, I'm sorry. I got snot in your hair. She had this big wad of the residue of her heartache in my hair. And I ended up being the person who prayed next. So I go up on stage and I'm just, you can see it. And I got kind of tickled, you know, well that night I was washing my hair, of course, I was home washing my hair. And I thought, you know, I think I've been at 60 events this

year. I've traveled 140 or 50 days on the road. And the holiest thing I've done all year is be close enough to that saint that I got the residue of her heartache in my hair. And I thought, oh my heavens, that's the hypostatic union. It's not an academic thing we study. Jesus is perfectly God, and He condescended to be incarnate to get the residue of our heartache in His hair and on his hands. He carried it on the cross. We have a God who loves us so much that he condescends to be closer

than that to us, to get the residue of our heartache on him. How, how that should blow our hard drives. That should re-gospel us every day to go. This is not a guide that we use to make other people feel small. This is a love story. This is not a collection of morality tales that we use to make people feel dumb or make people feel missed. At its core, the Bible is a love story. He's true. He's truer than true. But if you use theology primarily as a system to organize religious thoughts, gosh, you've missed the whole point.

The whole point of getting to have conversations about God, getting to marinate in this love story is to remember again and again, he loves me. And then our privilege is to get to at some distorted level, tell the story of being loved like that to the other image bears around us. I mean, what a glorious thing that, as Peter says, always be prepared to have an answer.

But the answer doesn't have to be smart. You don't have to use multislobic theological terms. My favorite testimony in the gospel is that the blind man, remember when the Pharisees tried to trip him up, and they were like, give us a dissertation on your healing. And he said, gosh, I don't know. He said, all I know is I was blind, and then I met Jesus and I can see. So, God bless those of us who get so insecure that we try to impress other people instead of going, come meet the God who let me get the residue of my heartache on Him. Come meet the God who is my front guard and my rear God. Come meet the God who lets me lean against Him, who carries the weight of my life when I can't carry it myself.

He's such a kind God. And for us to try to distill that, to prove we're smarter than somebody else, we've missed the mercy of the gospel when we do that. I have to ask you a question. You keep using the word condescend. And I know the context in which you're using it, but I've never heard it used in that way. In a positive context.

Exactly, it's always used negatively. There's so many words we use negative. Okay, the God of the universe, the King of all kings, makes himself knowable. makes himself knowable. I mean, the contrast of that would be so much bigger than this, but it would be me stooping to the level of a flea and trying to be flea-like. And so the fact that God chose to be incarnate,

Jesus, the Godhead, who's in glory, willingly laid down his scepter, knowing I'm going to become incarnate. I'm gonna shrug into a suit of skin. I'm gonna be born to a virgin who's gonna get stink eye her whole life, because nobody's gonna believe she didn't, you know, get jiggy with Joseph.

They're gonna be like, yeah, yeah, an angel. I'm going to come into this earth through a pregnant teenager who's not yet married. And the people are not only going to miss me, they're going to crucify me, and I'm going to love them. That is a merciful condescension. So yeah, we think of condescension as somebody who's smart going, oh, let me put the cookies on the lower shelf for you. CS Lewis says, even scripture has got lisping so that we can understand him. God's speaking in a language that we can hear. And so, when I think of condescension in the context of our Creator-Redeemer, I think the fact that Jesus listens to me, the psalmist says he leans down, he inclines his ear to

me, it slays me that the God who breathed and created the universe, he named the stars, actually listens to all my words. I'm a windbag. I have too many words and he cares about my words. He didn't save me as part of a congregation. He knows my name. That's the most merciful distillation of divinity. It's unstink and believable. And if we aren't grateful over that, then we need to get, we need to have an EKG.

It's so good because I just feel like it's hard to believe that when other people have run out of the capacity to take the time to know you or didn't show up in a way that made you feel seen and loved and valued. And yet to really embrace that, I think that there is a recognition of the capacity of a God who breathed the universe into being like he has the capacity to hear all of your words and all of my words. We're not talking about your mother, your father, your best friend who had a bad day

and told you go to your room or told you better not feel any kind of way. We're talking about a God who has limitless capacity for all of us. That's just remarkable to me. It is to me, even the concepts, like I did a deep dive a couple of years ago into the Trinity.

And anybody who tells you they get the Trinity is a liar or they've been hit in the head. You can't wrap our finite human minds around the miracle of ontological equality that God is simultaneously God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. There's no stinking way to fully comprehend that. I don't care what your IQ is.

You can be double menza. That's not a human construct. But the fact that our God chose to exist in a perfect community, Augustine says, you know, old dead guy, really smart, theologian, he says, only the Christian God exists in perfect community among himself. And then Genesis 1, 26, he says, let us, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit,

make male and female in our image. He knew we would be lonely. He knew even the greatest human parents sometimes would run out of capacity. They'd have a long day. Your dad, phenomenal, godly pastor. I'm sure he got tired. And sometimes sheep bite.

And so your dad might've come home and once in a blue moon been less than patient with you, his daughter, because he's human. So God says, I'm going to exist in perfect community so that you, my created, who will always suffer with loneliness, so that you actually know that you are never actually alone. If you believe in the Trinity, you go, oh, wow, that's the witness of God, is a God who exists in perfect relationship. He's hardwired us for relationship.

Wow, he knew loneliness would come with a fall. And so even the Trinity is the antidote for loneliness. So some of these concepts, I think sometimes we use all this elite language so that other people will think we're smart. But if you get what the fancy seminary language represents, it's always about a God who made a way for us to be in relationship with Him. He made a way for us to be family.

Even the very beginning of Scripture, when he starts with, you bear my image, Imago Dei, I made you in my image. You've got to remember, and Sarah, I've heard you teach on this so beautifully, they get Genesis after Egypt. So they know 400 years of slavery. All they know is performative. If I don't work hard, I will be beaten by my Egyptian captor or killed. So my worth and my work are completely connected. And so what he tells him in the very beginning, he begins to reframe their identity. He goes, no, no, you're not slaves anymore. You're children.

You actually look like me. You bear my image. When he brings in Sabbath, you know, I grew up thinking Sunday, I just had to wear pantyhose and couldn't talk and couldn't mow the yard or somebody might drive by and think we weren't serious Christians if we mowed the yard on the Sabbath. That's not the context of Sabbath. God says, you still think like slaves, even though you're children. So one day a week, you're not even going to understand it.

But I want you to gather around a table with the people you love. I want you to eat good food, not kale. I want you to eat carbs. And I want you to love on each other and to remember how much I love you because I don't love you for your productivity. That was slavery. I love you because you're mine. You go, oh, wow, how often do we reduce the Bible to a rule book when it's not rules? It's all promissory. It's, I have a life of belonging and family and hope and peace for you. And here's the guardrails for you to walk into relationship with me. I won't let Missy call it rules of the Bible anymore. I go, mm-mm, baby, they're not rules. They're promissory. They're parameters

because He loves us. He's not waiting for us to step out of line so He can smack us over the head with a big Bible. That's human understanding of a hierarchical relationship. We have a holy God who says, I'm your dad and I love you with an unconditional love and I'm not leaving on your worst, most rebellious day. I'm not leaving. Gosh, if we could just believe some facet of that, it would change the trajectory of life and it would change the way we treat other people. Because then instead of people being haters, they'd go, oh, I know what that insecurity feels like.

Yeah. I feel like I want to have an episode with you where I get to ask you like random things that have confused me in the Bible. And I'll probably say, I don't know either. For some of them, maybe, but for a lot of them, I bet you're going to fix me right on up. You're going to put it in great context. Okay, so I will say this and then I will close.

When I first started in ministry, speaking of accountability only being possible in relationship, God allowed me to meet Chris. And one of the things that I kind of have said over and over to her again, like, I want to be held accountable. You know, I didn't have many mentors as it related to women in ministry. And I said, Hey, if you ever see me doing anything, if there's anything that I could be doing better or something that I said, something I'm doing too much of, like, please hold me accountable. I say the same to you.

Like, please hold me accountable. I don't, to the extent that I have to do things on my own and stand on the wall on my own, I believe God will give me courage and strength to do that. But I also want to feel like there's someone who's watching, who's built a few walls of their own who are like, hey girl, if you lay it this way, it'll go faster. If you say it this way, it'll work differently. So please hear my heart when I say I want to experience that. Could I be really rude and interrupt my favorite female pastor on the continent?

Absolutely. What you just said comes from such beautiful humility, but I want to be your big sister for a second. Okay. What's the operative verb in what you just asked me? I want to be. Mm-hmm. Held. I want to be held. We miss the held part of accountability. When you have a sister

or a brother who will hug you when you hurt, when you failed. Remember after Peter threw Jesus under the bus, all the brothers came back and went fishing with him. I'm like, oh man, that'll preach. They knew he had betrayed the Christ. Not only did Jesus restore Peter, but ten, they lost Jesus by then. But the other ten disciples went fishing with him right after he had not just been humiliated, he was guilty of it. And they stayed with him. We are so quick to throw other Christians under the bus. When you want to be held accountable, you've got to be held accountable by people who would hold you, people who would hug you when you hurt,

people who would first say, I'm sorry, before they say, you're wrong. And so I want to be held accountable by you too, because I know when I blow it and I do something really stupid, before you tell me what I already know probably that I've done wrong, you would hug me and you would take me to dinner and you would weep with me when I wept, whether it was tears of repentance or tears of shame. And so I think those of us who have the undeserved privilege of walking close to other saints, we've got to remember the operative word and verb and held accountable. Got to be willing to hug people who hurt. You, I needed, I just, people say things to me all the time and I just kind of like take it in a little bit.

But you make every testimony that I've ever heard about my ministry that much more powerful because I feel it about yours when I say thank you for your yes, thank you for your obedience, thank you for your pursuit, thank you for sharing in all of the ways that you share, thank you for just exhaling on the days when things were not so easy and finding joy and just, I just, I'm so grateful for your light. You have no idea. You are one of the women who I know will continue to shape my ministry and to shape who I am as a woman of God. You just, you make it make sense to me. And I have spent so much of my life, not as much lately, I guess, feeling like I didn't fit in ministry, that God didn't make sense

to me. Like you make it make sense to me. And I'm just, I can't stress it enough. Like, I'm just very grateful for you. It is an extraordinary honor to be able to speak your name, to know you as a friend is an undeserved gift. And you are very, very easy to love. I'm so grateful that my daughter has been so impacted by your ministry and I, sorry, I don't have smart words now. I love you and I love getting to do even little snippets of life with you.

Thank you. And with that, our hilarious, edifying, mentoring Bible study has come to an end. When she said she was a recovering Pharisee, it took pause within me. I don't think that I spend enough time thinking about the ways that I have been judgmental and Pharisee-ical in my own perspectives of others, but also a challenge to make sure that I am in recovery. So many gems dropped here. Lisa's always finding a way to take us there though,

doesn't she? The way she makes room for hard truths and tender grace at the same time, that holding, being held accountable, like be for real. That's the kind of voice that I think that we need in the world right now. I think it's unifying. I think it causes us to elevate the plane. It's so easy for us to point

out what other people are doing wrong, but to sit squarely in our own area of growth and to allow it to create humility as we handle the lives and hearts of other people, whether it's in proximity or from a distance, I think is a gift that we could all learn to master. If something from this episode stirred your heart, and I know it did, let it keep stirring. Go check out her new book, A Jesus-Shaped Life. It will walk you through those big questions about God, life, and identity without making you feel like you need a seminary degree to understand. Lisa, thank you so much for your yes. Thank you for being a

friend who sharpens and softens me all at the same time. And thank you for reminding us that theology is just conversation about God. And because of that, there's always room at the table. Until next time, y'all stay anchored, stay growing and stay free. Evolve.