Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Fire to Advocate w/ Rev. Alisha Gordon

Episode Date: August 10, 2022

Quick, get Alicia on the keys—'cause THIS girl is on fiyaaa! Our guest co-host, Rev. Alisha Gordon, is out here doing the Lord’s work & it’s LIT! As the founder and Executive Director of TheCurrentProject.org, Sis connects programming and policy to close the social and economic gap for Black single mothers. She & SJR talk pulpits & politics, their lived experiences as single moms in the church, taking on the Goliath of systemic inequalities, plus a life reimagined! And Delegation, W.E. kickin’ that whole “bootstrap mentality” to the curb. Advocacy involves those with access getting #BootsOnTheGround & institutions putting the resources where their mouth is. Now, gone ignite your passion & blaze a trail for baddies behind you! This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp + Zocdoc + Athletic Greens. Holla at ‘em to REVOLUTIONIZE your health!

God can't bless you for ten to be or who you can care yourself to. He can only bless you and the lane that was created for you. I feel that for somebody. You don't need no itch, it's a unique boundary. What? I don't need your lights, I don't need your elevation. All I need is a God fighting for me that's there for all things. All things, all things.

Try. Okay, listen, I have a very serious question for you. This honestly, low key, it's probably the most serious question you'll be asked all week. How church are you? Like, are you so churchy that you insert church phrases in to regular regular conversations? Don't front like you haven't replaced saying, okay, with amen and quiet as it's kept.

I know I'm not the only one that changed the color red to red like the blood of Jesus to add more context to the shade of lipstick I'm looking for. Drop me a comment on the socials on the WomniBoff comment section and tell me how churchy are you? And guess what to my new girls not so churchy guess what that's alright Some of us more churchy than we need to be too much churchy

We'll hold it down for the rest of you. What's more important than being churchy than being Full of all of these colloquialisms is having a real authentic relationship with God It will change the way you see yourself The way that you see the world and change the way you see yourself, the way that you see the world and the way that you see your responsibility to show up. That is exactly what happened to my co-host today, Reverend Alicia Gordon, and let me tell you something. She is not your average Reverend, and when this conversation is over, you will thank

God for that. Friend! Hey you! How are you? I'm good. How are you? Thank God for that. Friend. Hey, you. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing great. Can you believe the level of like

adulting people would allow us to step into in this season? It's not right. Not right. I was like, they have no idea. They have no idea. I think we're doing a good job fooling them because people really think that we're adults out here. They do. They have no idea. I think we're doing a good job pulling them because people really think

that we're adults out here. They do, they do. I mean, you know, you put on a little lip, you pay a bill or two and people be like, oh, she got it together. No, man. She doesn't, but we'll go with it. We'll go with it anyway.

Thank you for doing this. Of course, of course. I was like, Sarah could ask me to fly to the moon. I'd be like, what time? I just know, I'll never ask Sarah could ask me to fly to the moon. I'd be like, what time? I just know I'll never ask you anywhere that I'm not going with you.

You know what I got to the moon? No, no, no, no. How's your city? New York is good. You know, it wants to be summertime, but not quite. You know, we're in a love hate relationship with the weather right now, but.

Are you obsessed? Do you love it there? Will you ever go back to Atlanta? Probably not. Lower willing to creak don't rise. I love New York. I live right in the middle of Harlem. I go walk to brunch, walk to church,

back to brunch. Things are good. It really suits you. It feels like once you move there that like you opened up, I don't know if it's just how expansive the opportunities are there, but I can definitely see a shift between like the person I met and who you are now. Yeah, I think New York is one of those cities where you get whatever you get left. And

I think it just pushes you into that place, but I love it here. And there's so much room to just be who you always want it to be. And so, you know, I think the culmination of all that really pushed me into this place to like test out who I always imagined myself to be, but didn't have the courage to be yet. So... I feel like when we talk about like testing out who you want to be, testing out what's possible for you, that I have seen you kick the tires on so many different

incredible and fruitful things. We're not just like kicking the tires and not being fruitful, but I have not seen anything more powerful than seeing the way that you have been advocating for single mothers as of late. Like can you tell me like obviously when we met, we were both single mothers, so you've seen my story kind of grow in transition.

So I know where that passion comes from when you've had that firsthand experience, but you have like really just taken into another level. What happened? You know, yeah. So there was a shift that happened. When I moved to New York, I was working in church spaces. I worked for a Methodist organization that I moved into executive minister role at a church here and then I took a turn into politics

and it was a very unexpected turn, something that I've always been politically engaged but never on that side of the veil. And when I brought together, like my church and theological with this political thing, I realized that all of the things that I was able to do as this black single mom from East Atlanta, who moved to New York and had all these opportunities, there were some key things that were present in my life that I found was not present in the lives of other black single moms like me.

And so I just felt like there was this calling to bring all of these lived experiences together to create the current project, which is the organization that I run, to really close the social economic gap that we, that Black single mothers experience when we think about access to jobs and we think about putting money in their hands to ensure that they can pay for childcare to go back to school. All of those very practical things that often are barriers. And in the very much it was response to what was happening in the world in 2020, the pandemic, thinking about what was happening in our government and needing to respond

in real time. Even though we are a secular organization It is very much sacred work right? It is a theological work to think about being the hands and feet of Jesus How do we respond to the needs about this particular demographic and really meaningful ways and The opportunities just opened up when I switched my intentions to doing that work The rest was kind of history. So, okay. So, I want to know, you said that there were some key tools, some key ingredients that you had that you recognized other single mothers didn't have. What were those key ingredients? So, as one of the things I love to call the community of reliable others, these are the people who are watching the babies while you at work or while you're in school. They're the ones that's giving you the holy handshake

and making sure you got money in your gas tank and all those types of different things. There were these key moments and key ingredients about access that people afforded to me as a single mom because they trusted the column on life. They trusted that the stories that I had were worthwhile telling. They trusted that the decisions that I made about my life

were the right decisions, right? And they equipped me with access and opportunity. So I think that's one thing. The other key component has been the room to mature and grow. I mean, you know my story, you know, when we met, I don't know, gosh, seven, eight years ago, the things that I was talking about and the ways that I was seeing the world has shifted so much, but it's been because people have just given me the grace. So like,

literally test out, what do I feel like who I am this year? And you know, what do I feel like? I'm really called to lean into and whether it's politics, whether it's in the church. And I think so many black single mothers do not get the grace to grow and mature and to who God has called them to be. They are bogged down with the stereotypes, with these expectations to be a performer certain way. And what I find is that black single mothers are one of the most innovative members of our community. They know how to make a dial out of 15 cent.

They are deeply compassionate and passionate about the world around them. But they often find themselves stuck between a rock and a heart place, between the narratives that people have for them and the things that they have dreamed for themselves. And so being able to lean into that community of reliable others who gave me access

and to really lean into that community of reliable others who gave me access and to really lean into the opportunities to really imagine who I could be in the life that I was called to live, or two major things that often are missing from the conversation when we think about resourcing this particular demographic. I have never heard community of reliable others before have never heard community of reliable others before. And it's a thing. It's a whole thing. I- It's a thing.

It's actually, I can't say credit for a professor and an amary, Dr. Gregory Ellison, that's his term. And I have adopted it. I tell them all the time. I was like, I use your stuff, but it's okay. It's mine, I stole it. It's so funny. We, you know, I moved to LA eight years ago

when I met my husband and we went back home to Dallas for a little while for a week. It's the longest and we had an Airbnb. Usually we stay at my parents' house but we stay at an Airbnb for a week. And my husband's like, I never see this side of you like what is this? And I think there's something about being in that community

of reliable others. We had something that was broken. I called my friend away at the Airbnb. One of my friends offered to keep the kids while we went on in date. Like there is a sense of security and stability. When you know you have that community, and a lot of times we think that in order to support someone,

if we can't write them and check them, we can't do anything at all. But I hear you saying like people were advocating for me on their level when I was in my process steel because they just brought what they could to the moment. Yeah, no, that's right. You know, part of the way that we think about our work is how do we temporarily alleviate these barriers that get in our way.

And often times the barriers are financial, but what we are finding is that what many of the moms that we work with, they really looking for community. They're saying, look, I have the vision, I want to work, I am in school, I do have the viable business idea, but I literally do not have the excess income to ensure that my child has childcare between the hours of six and nine at night, two days a week.

Right. And so we have said, okay, well, we will alleviate that burden, right? We will advocate for help you advocate and create the conditions at your workplace where you can say to your boss, these are the things that I need. This is what is going to take for me to thrive. And this is how I can move this path and move this process forward. I think that's such an critical points, because so much of their approach is about money,

you know, as an organization, we're committed to fundraising and doing right by people by having a moral budget and raising money and getting that money back into the hands of mothers. But we should also remember how critically important it is for these moms to have community, to have people that they can trust, to have people who can be their sounding board, to have people who believe their story. Yeah, who believe their story.

Yeah, absolutely. No, go ahead. You were in a flow, but I just wanted to underscore that. Yeah, to believe the story, because remember, this as black mothers, there is such a historical lens that is on our story, on our narrative as black mothers, right? We can go all the way back to slavery time where we think about the role of black mothering in this country and in this world. And even though we have often told our story from our own perspective, we

are often told that a story tale is not the right one, right? That it does not fit into whatever mold or whatever ideal that people have. And we are in a place now where we are uplifting the story of black women, uplifting the stories of black mothers, but also thinking about how we begin to shift our, how we spend our money, how we create policies, how we create theological doctrines that center the truth of the matter. And the truth of the matter is that these mothers are deeply committed to their children, they're deeply committed to the communities that they live in, they're the ones that are giving the holy handshakes and making sure the children get fed and making sure they get into school.

And they're often doing it with very restricted resources, right? And so it is the trusting of that story that we began to center and reimagine what's possible without thinking about the external lens that often tells us that our stories are invaluable or incorrect. Now a word from our sponsor, BetterHelp. Earlier this year, I began seeing a therapist and Swiss. Let me tell you, talking your way through situations and experiences with someone that doesn't have a counter-argument or side-to-take in the matter is such a freeing experience.

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or live chat so you don't have to see anyone on camera. Mental wellness is just one click away with Better Help online therapy. There are like 3,000 things I want to ask you now, because you, it's just like, just bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb I think part of the reason why we don't show up for our sisters to show up for our cousins, our aunts, our friends is because we think just because the story is common, just because it's one that we've heard before, that it somehow makes it easier for someone to navigate because though, well, your mama had to do it and oh, your cousin had to do it until you'll figure it out too.

And we remove ourselves from being a part of the solution. And I think there is a necessary re-engagement that requires us to say, if my sister, if my daughter, if my cousin, if my friend is suffering, then this is part of my ability to be an answer to her prayer. And I think that that level of re-engagement, what we see you doing, is can be literally world changing, like community changing, culture changing, to really re-engage on a human level with the people in our lives again.

Yeah, I mean, that is the longer term approach to this new school of thought, right? Is that we are often tied to a struggle narrative, just as you said, if your mama did it, your grandma mama did it, your auntie did it, then you being in a place to struggle is a part of the narrative. And what we are challenging is that,

yeah, there's beauty in the struggle, there's innovation that has come out of struggle, right? But when do we get to a place where we reclaim what is innately hours, which is a place of rest, a place of peace, a place of abundance where struggle is a secondary narrative and not the primary one, right? And a part of our work at the current project is to think about how do we not only program these things to help like single moms thrive, But how do we begin to champion for policies that sustain the growth?

We often find that we program our way into supporting Black single mothers and women across the diaspora, and we get them to a place of thriving, and then they go back into a world into a system that is actually not sustained to create, to sustain the thriving, right? And so then that means how to begin to create policies that help sustain that thriving

in really meaningful ways. So they are not in this up and down roller coaster situation where they are constantly in this place of thriving, then surviving, thriving, then surviving, right? How do we kind of create this consistency amongst their lives? And then thinking about Sarah, what are the ripple effects, right? Because in black single mothers who are one of the largest single households in the country in most urban cities, when not that community is thriving, then what is the possible outcome for the rest of the community, right?

What does it mean for our children? What does it mean for our children? What does it mean for our elders? What does it mean for the community at large when you have one of the largest household types in most urban cities in a place of thriving? Okay, so what are some of the current policies or lack of policies that play a role in that ebb and flow of thriving and surviving? because I really wanna bring awareness to the system that is set up to often keep us from sustainability, and maybe as we highlight those systems, we can empower women in their communities

to also begin to do this work as well. Yeah, no, that's a great question. So you think, for instance, the Child Tax Credit payment that families were getting over the course of 2020 and 2021. When that ended in January of 2022, 3.7 million children were thrust back into poverty. And so with the child tax credit, typically what happens is when people who qualify for it, they get it as an addition to their tax return. But because of the economy last year, they were sending it out as individual payments

month by month. So when they stopped that payment, 3.7 million children went back into poverty and all of the data shows that when working class and poor families have access to monthly cash on a regular basis, that those children are more likely to eat quality foods. They're more likely to not be food insecure. They're more likely to not be facing what housing insecurity, right? And so part of the, one of the things we need to really think about is how do we create policies that use data

that show that these types of ongoing cash assistance programs work? Another example is we think about the very welfare system, right? And when we say welfare, I know that can be like a charge word, but we think about things like tanif and food stamps and childcare subsidies, all of that is a part of the welfare system. And we think about these moms who we like to talk about as midler moms. These moms who are who are working, but they make too much money to qualify for something like food stamps, but not enough money to make sure that they can keep food on their table.

There in this really weird, wonky place, and part of the reason is because the policies as they're written often use an antiquated standard for what we consider poverty. A family of four, depending on the city city is in poverty if they may loosen $24,000 a year. Now, I live in New York City. Yeah. And when I'm, and I know people who make $80,000 a year here, and it's still not enough, right? So another policy thing that we should be thinking about as a community is how do we champion for a type of policy that increases that threshold instead of saying the poverty threshold for a family of policy that increases that threshold? Instead of saying the poverty threshold

for a family of four is 24,000, we may say it's 50,000 or 60,000, right? To give more people longer runway to have access to the type of support that they need. Okay, so I hate to interrupt all of this good conversation, but I wanted you to know that I wanna talk to you too. I wanna hear your story, I want to talk to you too. I want to hear your story, I want to hear your thoughts and opinions. You can send me your application, your video, to be a co-host to podcastatwomenevolved.com.

Let me know what it is you want to talk about, why it's important to you that you be on the podcast. Maybe you like girl, I am not going to be on anybody's podcast, I don't do talking to people. First of all, this is a sign, overcome yourself. But if not, you can send me an advice question. Podcast at womanevolve.com. Okay, let's get back to the podcast. So how do you keep this fire alive? Like because there are some people who are like,

you know what, I'd love to do this, but it feels like an uphill battle. An antiquated system means that it's been antiquated for a long time in the likelihood of me changing it in my lifetime feels impossible. It takes a certain level of perseverance, of determination to say that I am really gonna put my boots on the ground and I'm gonna weather every storm,

every policy, I'm gonna advocate for this people group. But like, how do you continue to do that when you realize like you're taking on Goliath, like you're taking on this system that's so much bigger than you? Two things. The first I will borrow again from a professor in Atlanta who talks about the three feet around us, right, is that when we try to take on these huge galaive of problems that we try to tackle them, you know, in big bites. But what he what he actually proposes that we only be concerned about the three feet

around us, which is basically our arm length, right. And our arm length is often the person next to us, right. And so we think about the three feet around us, which is basically our arm length. Our arm length is often in the person next to us. We think about these three feet around us who are the three feet of influence that we have. That's often an approach that we can take to see what is it that I can do with the three feet around me. But the second part I want to offer is that this fire and passion is deeply rooted in lived experience. And I think that is the core of advocacy, that is the core of championing for things. That is really the approach that Jesus took, is that there was a lived experience that is completely,

that is completely mine and that is tied to my story that drives the work that I do. I often find that our inability to sustain a level of advocacy that really gets things moving is because we're trying to do it out of a place that is ingenuous, right? We're doing it out of a place that because it looks good on social media or because we think so and so is you know is now the cool thing to do. But my experience as a black single mother who has been facing who has faced eviction, who has faced food insecurity. When I was in grad school my daughter and I were living out of my car moving house to house and I was still in grad school working three part time jobs on campus. Like all of those things drive the kind of fire and passion

to kind of create a world. And if not a world, at least the three feet around me that creates the conditions for black single mothers. So live into their dreams, but without having to do with so much struggle, right? And you know, that is the model that I think that, you know, why I often say that even though we are a secular organization, it has a deep theological ideal about living into the truth of our stories and letting the truth of our stories fuel the work that we do, fuel the

conversations that we have. Because that's the thing that sustains you is when the money is not coming in and the people not listening to you and the folks telling you that your approach is all wrong. It is the thing that is your own lived experience when you look up in the morning and see these babies or see these houses or whatever the case may be. You are that that is the thing that will continue to push you beyond what the world will possibly tell you is not even valuable. It's like I got chills when you were speaking because I think social media and just the way

that the culture set up in general makes us believe that if it's not a big splash that it didn't do anything. But the truth is that if you are going to make a difference, then you do have to be closely connected to it. And I'm just thinking to myself, if you've never been the one person who needed something different, then you don't believe that you can make a difference. But if you've been that one person who's like, listen, I wish that there was just one person who would have done this, one person who would have said this, then you believe that one person does matter because you were that one person. And have done this, one person who would have said this, then you believe that one person does matter

because you were that one person. And it sounds like you're like, listen, if it's just one, thank God that has been more than one, but it does matter if it's just one person. What do you think you're most proud of that the current project has done so far? You know, gosh, we're so proud of so many things. You know, I think I'm most proud of, I am most proud of being able to give the moms that

we work with new vernacular to how they talk about their stories. I remember when I first moved to New York in 2016, that was the first time that my daughter and I were not on welfare. We had been on welfare her entire life, put with assistance, all that stuff. And so when I moved to New York, I'm happy to be transparent.

I was making like $80,000 a year, and I was hyped. I was like, whoa, most money out of never made. But the rent was like $2,800 a month. And when you calculate that with the health insurance and the cost of a pack of bacon VN $12 80,000 was in exactly what I thought it was but I raised that because I Remember talking to somebody about you know my journey as a single mom working in the church and I named myself. I was talking myself, you know, I'm a black son mother, I'm a welfare single mother.

And I was like, nothing, not. No, you're not. But I have been using that narrative for over a decade at that point. It was just a part of my like story telling was a part of my like DNA because it had been a part of my story for so long. And the reality was I actually didn't qualify for a food stamps anymore.

And so that technically made me no longer a welfare mother, right? And we talk about this in the current project. When we've talked about money and finances, we always pause to think about personal narrative. And we're about our stories that we have created for ourselves and what have been told to us. And we take real intentional time about unpacking those narratives both socially, religiously,

culturally. And we try to just do a little fact checking. Are the things that you have been telling yourself are the ways that you're talking about yourself? Is that still true? Yeah. Right? There are parts of our stories that we are holding on to because it's deeply connected to our family lineage or is deeply connected to someone

that we use to love. But sometimes the things that we call ourselves are just not true anymore. And so the thing that the current project has done that we think is a really innovative approach is making those intentional pauses to get moms through reimagining their stories, reimagining the narrative. And that's something that you can't quantify, but it's great when I talk to moms and they're like, yo, I had never thought about how long I had been calling myself this and it just was no longer true, right? You've've given me the tools to re-imagine a narrative and then thinking about how that

re-imagine narrative now equips them to approach things like finances, like personal relationships, like small business, thinking about going back to school with new eyes to say that if I can re-imagine this part of my life, surely I have the capacity to re-imagine and dream these other parts of my life that have been sitting dormant for so long. And so that's what I'm most proud about. I can run down the numbers and the fundraising and all that. But give it moms a new narrative. The language to think about their story in a new way is really dope. That's what I'm most proud of. Do you think it's hard for us to disengage from those stories because we're afraid that we may get back in them?

So it's better to just stay in them than to take this step of faith outside of them? You know, I don't know if it's that we are afraid we're gonna fall back into them. I think that we have built community around those narratives. Like, you think about, we have built entire lives around the way that we have seen ourselves and been seen by others. So to detach ourselves from the narrative

is not just a matter of a soul thing, but it's a one on one. It's a one on one thing. It's about what are the possibilities of detaching from that narrative, me, made me detaching from particular relationships. It made me detaching from places we work, places we go to church. I think there's a real fear. I know that was the fear I had. Was that like, yo, if I can't rely on this narrative anymore, if I can't say that, you know, woe is me and I'm in this horrible place. What does that now mean for the relationships I have to people and to institutions? I think that is often the real fear that we have. But one thing that I know for sure and too for certain is that when we lean into the possibilities

of a new narrative is that on the other side of that is also new relationships, new ways of being, new cities to live in, you know, to me, like just new ways of life. And so I think that's it. I think that we're just afraid of what we stand to lose when we shift our narratives. But the fact of the matter is we actually have so much more to gain. And maybe that's what you've seen in the last six years and me moving to New York. I was like, oh snap.

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because I would not be myself if I didn't just lean into the hard things. But I've heard you talk about institutions and religion. And so I wanna know what role has theology played as it relates to the narrative that the black single mother possesses about herself. And I don't even know where this is headed, but I know.

Let me tell you something. Don't let the Reverend powerful you. This is not the Reverend that she may have grown up listening. Oh, gosh, she's so water. Here we go. I'm stressed, John. Don't be stressed. The role that the church listen.

Mm. Help Holy Ghost. Yes, come Holy Spirit. So look, um, there has been long standing theological ideas that have disenfranchised black single mothers or single mothers in general. In many churches and I use church with the capital C here right institutionally and so I think there are so many things at play that have fertilized this particular group because Because the institutional church is afraid of its own freedom.

Black single mothers, single mothers, have had to make a choice. And they often live into that choice, hell of high water. They often live into the choice by public opinion, often live into the choice despite public support. And the church has often been the place in which black single mothers often first find out that what they have done is shameful. It's often the first place that they realize that there is some kind of shame attached to being a single mother.

And there's always this blatant, just forgetting that Jesus, as we know, was born to this teenage mother, who also made a choice. And the church has been, the church has been the place. I remember when I first had my daughter, she was maybe a year or two old. Yeah, a year or two old, and I remember just feeling this level of shame. Not for my family, not for my friends, because they were the ones that showed

the baby shower about the diapers. But when I brought it to the church, well, we don't think you really should be singing and the choir anymore until you fill up, you know, until you reconcile this. How about the reconcile? Right. I got it. It's here now. What do I do? I can't change it. Yeah. And so, and so what I'll offer, what I'll offer up is that maybe not a critique of the church, but where the church has the opportunity to really help do some healing, right? Where we begin to reimagine theology, where we begin to reimagine how that theology is often patriarchy or a misogynistic. How do theology is often counterintuitive

to the notion of a liberative Jesus? Yeah. Right? How that theology positions people to, we think about how critical the church has been and the civil rights movement and like bringing justice to marginalized people. But then we go into the pulpit

and tell them that are bodies in the decision that they make for their bodies are sinful, right? And so it's liberation for some, and not liberation for all. And so I think the opportunity is for us to be really intentional about building ministries and building programming that is reimagining theology in really meaningful ways. And I'm keeping it real.

I know you are. I know it real. I know you are. I know you are. I know you are. I was like, I'm gonna say something crazy to you, but I'm gonna have to cut all that. No, no, no. But I think that's the opportunity, right, is that we began to really interrogate.

We need to really interrogate what it is that we are reading in scripture and how we are applying it to and applying it with the lens is that is the way that I am talking about scripture in relation to this particular group of people does it give them freedom? Does it free them up to live the lives that they were created to live and as an institution am I putting the resources to work to ensure they're thriving? And if the theology and if the church does not do that, then we're not on the right path.

And I believe. No, no, well, here we are. We're here now. Let's start it. If we're gonna start it, let's go. Okay, so I think the fear though, in teaching ethyology of freedom, even though we serve a guy who's like,

I'm gonna give you free will. Like God says, here's your freedom. Like here's your freedom. If we teach this freedom, I think we're afraid that people will live without conviction. I don't think we have enough trust in conviction and God's ability to, with loving kindness, I drew the, like I don't think that we trust God's ability to, with loving kindness, I drew thee. Like, I don't think that we trust God's ability

to help a person see what their truth was versus what it is now and to be safe within that truth and to have space to really say, like, listen, it is not my job to police your life. It's not my job to tell you what you should or should not do. If God didn't want to do it, I for sure cannot sign up for this job. And yet I am afraid that me not placing these boundaries and limitations on you will create a version of you

that lives without conviction. So I think it, I think, but I want to hear what you say. Like is this a battle for control and power? I mean, we benefit from the power of the power list. Like, what's happening here and let's try. Ooh, you said it were. I was like, I don't know she got turned to quarter,

but she said it control. Yeah. Right. It is a delicate balance between the notion of free will and like all these things. And I want to be clear that we are talking about in the confines of the institutional church because someone will come in and say,

in here saying, I'm not a church, you know, American, the Constitution, right? We're talking about, right? But again, I think there's an opportunity for us to interrogate this notion of power in the church, interrogate who, what is the genesis of this notion of power in the church and interrogate who, what is the genesis of this notion of power?

Because if we really want to be honest, especially in black and brown churches, this notion of power in the church is a white supremacist idea, right? When we think about the notion of white supremacy and how white supremacy in the Bible was used hand in hand to control people, to control ideologies, control how you showed up in the world, control how you dressed, control who you did it, you know, but things that you did and who you did it with for the sake of trying to belittle a particular group of people to and bring up the supremacy of another, right? And so we have to be careful to make sure that when we are trying to create a boundaries for how folks show up,

that it's not rooted in white supremacist ideas, right? That we are, that we, that we, and here's the thing, and one of the things I say all the time when I'm, when I'm trying to explain to people, the approach that I take when we talk about black single mothers is that we do not trust that they have the capacity and the will and the ability to hear God for themselves to make the right decisions. And oftentimes the institutional church doesn't want to relinquish that control because they really haven't done a good enough job

and teaching people on how to hear the spirit of the Lord. Okay, don't start now, because like now we could be on here for another hour. Yeah, go for it. But I'm serious, we saw this in the pandemic, right? In 2020 about how we were having to pivot from in-person church to online and part

of that what we were hearing is from parishioners all the time is who's going to pray for me. Who's going to who's going to do this for me? And what it showed is that we have not done a good enough job in teaching people to seek God for themselves, right? We're all the power and all the prayer and all of the programming and all of the outreach has been happening from the institution Down when Jesus's model was this way. Yeah His model wasn't this way when it was coming to connecting with people right when he thinks about when he talks about the disciples He said listen you faithless generation how many times do I have to teach you and tell you that you have the power and capacity to

slay demons, to pray for the sick, sick to heal the sick, right? And so I think part of it is that I think you're absolutely right, that it is a matter of control, that we need to begin to interrogate what is this notion of control and needing to like not let people have a free reign. What is that really about? But it really is an opportunity for us to think about how well of a job we have done and equipping people to seek God for themselves,

to hear God for themselves, to resource them in really meaningful ways. Because often the things that we fear, that people will do when we give them free reign, is that people are doing that because they lack opportunity because they lack resources because because they are in a fight or flight every day or their lives right so what does it mean for the institution to reimagine even its financial resources is building resources

is real estate resources to alleviate some of that pressure. Take some of the pressure off the pressure cooker. You know what it is. You put the lid on, turn it on, the outstays be cooking real good. You got to take some of that pressure off before you take the lid off. Because if you take the lid off before you take the pressure off, what happens? Yeah. Explosion.

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yet I also have dealt with being on the other hand of what it means to be one of the people who break the rules, who no longer have a clearly defined space, who we'd rather sit in the back so she doesn't contaminate the others. And as I've created, one of my goals has been, come as you are, girl, like listen, bring your raggedy, bring your beautiful, bring your journey,

like I don't want you to pretend to be anyone. And I've really been burdened to like really begin to expand that into a girl's version of it. Cause like, what does this look like on a girl level? But I don't want another girl's ministry that's like, don't have sex before marriage. Like I wanted to be something that feels real because I think if we do a good job, we won't have to say that your body has value and worth and that you should honor it by being selective over who you engage with. Like I think if we do it the right way, we're not just giving them this rulebook but we're restoring dignity and purpose and just really honoring

like your body and this, you know, all the things that it can do and why I shouldn't just be out there for anybody. You know, I mean, like I think there's an opportunity to make our young girls feel power-filled and protective over their power so that their power isn't abused by someone who wants to take advantage of them. And I don't wanna just do it because I have a women's ministry. I wanna know what I'm gonna say to them.

And you challenge me to really think about the options and opportunities that I have. Good, I may look, almost forgot where I was just having that. That's good. And I appreciate you taking a pause and thinking about what that looks like. Again, whether you are a little girl or a mother in the church with the right, with the access to the right information, people really do have the capacity to make the right choices for themselves. And that's the things that we have to trust.

We just have to trust that. Because that's not trust that I think we see, we've seen the counter of that so many times when we try to like enforce and force and force. And you know, you're raising daughters, I'm raising a daughter and I, when I was, I was in, I've been in therapy every day for the last four years, even how a Luiah Jesus every week I should say. And when I realized that, you know,

when I weak, my daughter and I were having these like, teenage angst things around my sex and my honesty and all these things. And when I realized that, I just needed to give her enough information so she could make choices. Yeah. It was a game changer.

It was a game changer because me and Posey, and this isn't me that I'm not like offering wisdom and like being insightful and all these things, but when I took just a small pivot to say, well, look, I'm gonna offer you up, like it could go this way, it can go this way, or you'll this way, this is all the information you need. And I, the hard part was for me to sit back

and just wait for her to make the choice. Yeah. And I'd be like, Lord, let me make the right choice. And nine times out of 10, she did. And then one time in the time that she didn't, there's the opportunity for correction. There's the opportunity for like, well, let's sit within a little bit more

because of X, Y, and Z. And so, I think that you have something through your lived experience as raising for raising daughters of being able to see. And from your own experiences that when you are offered the information we need, when we're honest with our girls, when we're honest with young women about the realities

of life and how that can play out. And when we, especially young girls, when we give them the opportunities to play into these scenarios in safe, comfortable spaces, right, they actually hone the muscle. It takes to make hard decisions in real time. And so I think you're on something, you know, actually might be a little too old about how you get it. We have a mentorship program. Now be quiet, I'll let you go. But I do think that when a girl who grows up in church

is disempowered or shamed by the church because she broke the rules that it teaches her a distrust of the church, but also a distrust of herself. And what I love about what you're saying about laying out the options is that it gives the power back to the girl who will become a woman. And it gives her the opportunity to make the right choice, to make a difficult choice and have to reap the repercussions or consequences connected to that. And then to show up again.

And I think one of the things that I am learning in my 30s, honestly, is to trust myself again, to trust my voice, to trust my decisions, because the consequences were so rough when I made the wrong choice, or I made a difficult choice, that it made me feel like I don't deserve to choose again and yet life is a choice every single day

and I want to be able to choose again. So I'm more careful with my choices now and I think we gotta give people the ability to choose again. Yeah, I mean, that reminds me of Jesus, know, Jesus, he was talking about forgiveness, but I think it's also about the ability to choose. He said, get that fall seven, get up eight. Yeah. That's a choice.

That's a choice. He says, when you fall seven, get up eight. Like, that is a choice, right? And so I think that, again, there's such an opportunity in this like new this dispensation of where we are about looking at scripture and this new lens of giving people liberation and freedom, right? And and and equipping them to do that because that was Jesus's model. He was like, listen before you was life or death. That's still a choice. Yeah, right going to give you, I'm going to show you the miracles.

I'm going to show you the love of Christ. I'm going to show you the possibilities of the kingdom. I'm going to give you everything you need so that you can make an informed decision. And he knew that these decisions that people were making were up against empire. It was up against society. It was up against policy.

It was up against poverty. It was up against society. It was up against policy. It was up against poverty. It was up against all of these things, but even Jesus trusted that with the right information, with a good community of reliable others, whether that's 12 or 2000, with the resources people needed to thrive. That folks really can make the right decisions for themselves, and ultimately the right decisions that create the conditions

for the entire community to thrive. And so, it's a no way of thinking about it. I don't know if the people ready, but listen, we hear. You know, I will say though, you know, Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery after he had really quieted everyone down. He doesn't say, now stick with me so you don't do this again or stay here so that you can

just stay in this place where you receive the miracle, but he says, go and send no more. Like go and choose differently than you chose this time. But so many of us get delivered, we barely make it past something and we just stay stuck in the place where we got caught. But I think it's, you know, we call it caught in the act of adultery. And I think that it speaks to the fact that we can get stuck and caught

in a circumstance where at the end of the day we gotta be willing to get up and go again. So I'm thankful that you got up and you went to New York. I'm thankful that you continue to choose differently went to New York. I'm thankful that you continue to choose differently and that it gives us permission to choose differently as well. So much respect. I have so many friends that are so much smarter than me and I just love picking your brain. First of all, thank God that I don't have student loans because y'all got them, y'all paid all of the school fees and now I get to just hustle off of your degree

and just pick your brain. That's it. I'm so grateful for who you are in the earth and the work that you're doing. So thank you. Thank you, friend. I really appreciate it. I love the organic growth I relationship with it over the years. So thank you. Yeah, thank you, Nick.

Well, I love you. I'm here. Love you too, sis. I'm going to talk to you soon. Okay, I love you. I'm here. Love you to says. I'm about to send. Okay. Bye. I tried to tell you this was not going to be the regular conversation that you're used to at minimum. I hope it was thought provoking for some of you. I hope that it changes the way that you engage with those around you.

My prayer is that I will continue to unearth the truth that God has deposited into my life so that I can share it with others. Alicia, so much love, so much respect. Thank you for joining us. If the Spirit is moving you, if your own relationship with God is trying to put something in your Spirit, I hope it's that you will join me in being a co-host. If you want to slide into the inbox and send us a video one to two minutes long telling us why you should co-host with me, you can do that by reaching out to podcast at warmandevolved.com. If you're like, listen, I am not one for the co-hosting, but I could use your perspective. You can send us an advice question there as well. I will see you next week. you