Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - It's Never Too Late to Start Again with Lisa Knowles-Smith

Episode Date: October 14, 2026

What happens when life gets hard, prayers seem unanswered, and you're trying to hold on to your faith while navigating grief? This week, Sarah Jakes Roberts sits down with gospel artist Lisa Knowles-Smith for an honest, heartfelt, and hilarious conversation about finding purpose through pain, healing from church hurt, and learning to trust God's goodness even when life doesn't feel good. From losing her mother unexpectedly to reclaiming her story, returning to school, and discovering that healing sometimes requires both prayer and participation, Lisa reminds us that what you've been through doesn't have to define who you become. Because even in your hardest season, God's goodness is still following you! Check out the goodies from our partners! Go to https://baskandlatherco.com and use code EVOLVE for 20% off. Get started at https://gogeviti.com/WOMANEVOLVE and use code WOMANEVOLVE for 20% off your membership. Get 40% off select Lola Blankets products at https://Lolablankets.com by using code EVOLVE at checkout. Experience the world’s #1 blanket with Lola Blankets. Download Cash App Today: https://click.cash.app/ui6m/kkzntqt9 #CashAppPod. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa® Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and The Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa U.S.A. Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and Bancorp debit flex card. Savings provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, we'll get back to the conversation, but first, let me put y'all on the ultimate sweater weather game because fall is around the corner and if you're anything like me, you want those pieces in your closet that you can reach for over and over again and know that they're going to work. Listen, when the weather starts cooling down, I want pieces that feel elevated and chic, but I also need them to be easy. I want the sweater that works whether I'm keeping it casual, dressing it up for dinner, or throwing it on when I need to get out of the house. and still look like I put myself together. One of the pieces I keep reaching for is my Quince cashmere sweater. It's soft, it's timeless, and it's one of those pieces that just makes getting dressed easier. And that's really what Quince does so well.

They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and washable silk. Their pieces are thoughtfully made to be worn again and again, so you're building a wardrobe of things you'll actually use. Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweater starts at just $50. So you're getting the softness and quality you would expect from a luxury brand without that luxury price tag. And it doesn't stop at sweaters. Quince also has premium stretch denim, leather bags and footwear and beautiful 14-carat gold jewelry that can pull the whole look together.

So if we're getting our fall wardrobe together, baby, we can do the whole thing. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality instead of some brand markup. And Quince isn't just for your closet. They bring that same approach to hotel quality bedding and bath, kitchen essentials, and thoughtfully designed furniture. So whether you're refreshing your wardrobe or your home for the season,

they've got you covered. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash evolve. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's QI-N-C.com slash evolve. Listen, we can't be transactional with God. He's good even when it's bad.

And even the bad things work for your good. Now, let me tell you how bad he is. So let me tell you about how bad your good God is. Let me tell you something. That I can even take those things that you didn't want to deal with that you didn't want to face. And I can work them together. Now I'm not to work them. I got to work it.

Because it wasn't all good. But in the end, it's going to be good. Because that's how good God is. What's up, family? This is Sarah Jake's Roberts. And you're listening to or watching. Perhaps you're watching the Woman Evolve podcast. It's harvest season, y'all.

And we are officially in the month of October. and I've really been stopping to think about what does harvest mean for me in this season. So many of you know about the year that I've had and it's brought a lot of different things into my life that have made me question. I've had to reflect. I have found myself re-evaluating my identity, my purpose, my offering and just really thinking about life differently in general. And so now that we're moving into this season of harvest, I feel like my assignment this quarter is to take some time to, look back at the things that have stretched me, the things that have challenged me, and even the things that, like, I didn't fully understand when I was going through them and asking myself,

like, how have I grown and what did this grow in me? One of the things that I am excited about is feeling more confident, but confidence feels different than I anticipated. I thought that confidence was going to be me feeling like bad. Like, I can do whatever. I'm strong. nothing gets under my skin. I felt like that's what confidence was. And it's not that for me. Confidence for me has been my ability to trust that every experience is meant as a teacher. My confidence that I can come undone in front of people, that I can be honest about areas where I have strength and areas where I have vulnerability.

And neither of those take away from who I am, I feel confident that I can. be myself and that myself doesn't have to be perfect. And that is something that I feel like I've always longed for and that I'm finally tapping into. And that makes me feel so happy. So I want to challenge you to ask yourself the same questions. Like what is grown in you emotionally, spiritually, relationally or personally? Because it's harvest season and the greatest harvest that you can have is you. Amen. You know what I've had to learn? Just because something works for somebody else does not mean it's going to work for. me and hair is definitely one of those things. You can take all the advice, try all the

routines, buy all the things, and still realize, okay, my hair needs something different. That's why I started using Baskin Lather. Their products are created with textured hair needs in mind. Their stimulating scalp and hair balm uses 100% natural ingredients to help nourish your hair, reduce breakage, and add shine without that heavy, greasy feeling. And their hydrating hair mist, aloe vera, and avocado oil come together. to help with dryness, frizz, detangling, and keeping your hair hydrated. Whether you're wearing your curls out or keeping them tucked away in brage, twist, or locks, I love that this is a black-owned family-operated company that literally started because a family

wanted better answers for their own hair. They did the research, created their own formulas, and turned that hair into something the rest of us can use to. I want you to explore viral bestsellers and products of healthier hair of all types. from Baskin Lather. Go to BaskinLatherco.com and use code evolve for 20% off. That's 20% off at Baskin Lather, C.O.com code evolve. Now y'all know I love a conversation that can make you laugh, think, and maybe even heal a little bit along the way.

And this one does all three. I'm sitting down with Lisa Noel Smith and we're talking about everything from finding purpose and owning your story to grief, faith, family. and what it really looks like to believe God is still good when life gets incredibly hard. Lisa has been so honest in this conversation about losing her mother, suddenly, about navigating church hurt, going back to school later in life. Yes, Queen, and learning that healing can require both prayer and participation. This conversation went places I wasn't expecting, but let me tell you, it was a good key key. You guys are going to enjoy this. I'm so glad that it went all these random places because it blessed me tremendously.

And I really feel like Lisa and I could really have a good time together. So let's get into you knowing Lisa Noel Smith the way that I got to know her for our conversation. I want to read your words to you. Okay. You've said something that is blessed me, but it needs some unpacking. Okay. You said that purpose isn't discovered in comfort. It's revealed in commitment.

When you say faithful to what God gave you, eventually the world will see what heaven already approved. How have you learned this lesson over the years? And what's birthed that thought? You know, I've been singing and traveling since I was a kid. So a lot of times when you're young, you feel like you've been called to do what you see everybody around you doing. And it was over time being committed to that thing that I realized, oh, there is purpose in this, not just because my mama did it or because grandma did it. It was because over the time, I realized that this is impactful. Like, people's lives are changing. Kids come up to me and they want to do what I do.

So you learn that purpose is really kind of determined in your commitment. It's kind of, you figure that thing out once you're committed to it over a period of time. So I thought it was a beautiful thing. And then for me, you know, because I was grown or born into a singing family, my mom and them did it. So I had to learn how to do it for me. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? My purpose, not our purpose.

What's my purpose? in this family dynasty, this thing that we have created. And it was a beautiful moment for me, an epiphany. Yeah, I love that because we have a generation that's like obsessed with purpose. Everyone wants to know their purpose. And they think if I have my purpose, then I'll do. But you did and then found purpose. That's so good.

And that's important. I think that's really important, especially for families who do things. When you have a big family, my family's huge. My grandfather pastored and, you know, my dad was a preacher. played music, we did all those things, and you grow up and you want to do what you, I wanted to be my mama and my grandma. And my grandmother was such a beautiful spirit. She was a fireball baby. She could, one minute, she'd be telling you how to cook the next minute she'd be shouting in your kitchen, you know what I mean? So I thought everybody was so drawn to her. So easily I could have said,

I want to just be my grandma, you know, but then there's different paths and then you begin to find yourself and maybe some of the things that granted did, I won't do. But there's going to be some things that are specifically for Lisa, and I find my purpose and my calling in those things. You know, our journeys are a little different because when I was growing up, I didn't want to do nothing. They was born. Really? Oh, no.

Are you serious? Oh, no. And then when I got pregnant as teenagers, like, who, now I never have to do it. Oh, no. Now look at me. And up here, looking the way I'm looking at you. But I think where our stories begin to merge is that we still had to figure out what does this mean to me personally.

Yes. Whether I was drawn to it as a child or it's something that I was. drawn to but feel a sense of connection to now. Yeah. We had to figure out how to make it our own. Our own. Yeah. And that's really important because for my, like I have kids now and so I try to tell my kids, don't

try to be me. Yeah. You be, you find yourself, I've created a path. So I think my grandparents, my mom, they created a path. But then I had to kind of venture off into my own thing because some of the things that they did and mistakes that they made, I don't want to do that thing. You know what I mean? And I think we're a little bit more

aware and a little bit more, you know, conscious of who we are than maybe our parents and grandparents were. So I think it's really important that you kind of

center yourself in yourself. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like be who you are and I really had to learn that. I learned it in my 20s and I'm forwarded something

but I got it. That's so good. I love what you said about us being able to kind of glean from what our parents did or didn't do and make decisions for our

I feel like that's so important. So many times we can be so focused, hyper-focused on what they didn't do well that we don't cling from what they did do right. And I've had this conversation with my father. I feel like so much of who I decide to be as a parent has so much to do with the ways that he admits that he couldn't show up for us. And so he's given us permission to not just take the mistake, but to take the mistake and let it be seed for a more promising future. That's good. What are some of the things that you've feel like you have gleaned from your, you know, grandmother, aunt's mother and family that are with you now? They were very hardworking. You know, I think about my parents divorced when I was nine

years old. And my mom worked three jobs to take care of me and my brother. She had two kids, have a younger brother, and she was a hard worker. I never once saw my mom complain. Like, never, I never heard her say, I don't want to get up and go to work. I don't want to do this. I don't want, she went to work, and she was proud of everything that she accomplished. She said, to me, to us at a young age, I don't want y'all to live in a ghetto. Like, you know, I don't want my family to grow up in the hood. And so I learned hard work from her. But I also learned from that experience that no matter how hard you work, you can't replace time. So there were some moments where I wish she was there, you know, but she was working. And I know she thought she

did the right thing. And I had to say to my brother one day, he was saying, you know, I wish she wouldn't work at FAA. My mom worked literally from morning to night. over into the wee hours of the morning. So basically I kind of raised him and I was making baloney sandwiches and Kool-Aid and while my mom worked and slipped. And my mom would feel guilty because my brother kind of made a couple of mistakes.

And he would say, if mama was at home, I said, well, she did what she thought she needed to do. And so sometimes we have to take those things. I took hard work from her, but I also won't work so hard that, you know, I miss my kids and that they miss me. So I don't blame, I didn't blame her for it. I just, I learned from it.

That is my testimony right there. My father, we just celebrated his 50 years in ministry. And he took a moment to have the people who were there to celebrate him to acknowledge the sacrifice that went with it because him being gone and doing some of the things that changed the world and made him a household institution for so many meant that he wasn't an institution within our own home. And we had to work through some of the abandonment and the pain that came with that. But it also had to have. has shaped the way that I showed for my parents. You know what I love about this? Because I feel like in, if you grew up in church or you grew up in a fake generation, you know you got to honor your parents, which we do. We do. This is not dishonoring them in any way, but honor and honesty, can it live in the same place? And I feel like when our parents give us permission to have honor and honesty,

or we give ourselves permission, maybe the parents won't give it to you to have honor and honesty. It can help us break some of the generational curses that have followed us into the pews. Absolutely. You know me, my mom got a chance before she passed to talk about this. You know, we actually had a conversation about what life looked like when I was younger. I think I brought up a memory and she was like, I don't remember that. And I'm like, mama, yeah, you was kind of, you know, my mama was really funny.

She was hardworking, but she loved her kids and loved her family. She would give anything to make sure that we were good. So we had a conversation just talking about how emotionally aware I am versus her. So talk about my kids. And I said, well, Mom, I don't do my children like this or whatever the thing was. And then we had a conversation. And she was like, you know, I didn't realize at the time that I'd worked so hard that I had, you know, kind of, you know, in so many words, she said, I didn't realize that I wasn't paying you guys enough attention. Yeah, right.

Because she was working, because in her mind, providing his attention, you know, you got food, you got clothes, you got a roof over your head. You're not your clothes are clean You're good That is my attention And I had to learn that We're kind of We're alike but different Because the end goal is the same

Yeah We want our kids to feel love We want them to know that we're there for them We support them We got you My mama just did it in a different Our parents Yeah

Did it in a different way For sure I love that you got to have that conversation Yeah All right guys I know we're just getting into this conversation With Lisa But I have to tell you all

About my Lola Blanket I first got my Lola blanket when I was in my recovery season after my neck injury. And when I tell you, this blanket is so soft, apparently it's a little too soft because I have not, I have not seen my blanket in a little minute. Everybody in my family has been using this Lola blanket and they need to give it back. At this point, I don't even know if I can call it my blanket anymore. Somebody's always wrapped up in it, caring it to another room or asking where the Lola is. And honestly, I get it because Lola blankets are made with ultra-soft, luxury faux fur. And they've got the signature four-way stretch so they have this really plush, cozy feel that makes you want to stay wrapped up in them.

But give me my blanket back, okay? I love that they're machine washable for when they start spilling stuff on them. They're double hem for durability and designed not to peel or shed even after repeated washes. And this is how they get you. You start with one. Then suddenly you're thinking, okay, maybe I need another one for the bedroom. Maybe the couch needs, maybe everybody in this house just needs their own so they can stop taking mine. So for a limited time, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola Blanket products with Code Evolve at checkout.

Just head to LolaBlankets.com and use Code Evolve to get 40% off your order. And after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. Again, that's LolaBlankets.com code Evolve. 30% off select Lola Blankets products. As you have navigated grief, because I hear the, we're coming up on the one-year anniversary, how has having some of those more difficult conversations helped you with some of the pain that you experienced in navigating her absence? You know, the more I miss her, the more I realize how amazing she was.

You know, I think, and I may get a little bit emotional. But remembering when you're young, you know, you feel like your parents are so hard on you. They're so, my mama, she wants me to do this and she want me to do that. And I'm from Memphis, so I got a little hood in me. And me and my mama used to be going at it. And in her passing, the things that she did for my, even my kids, that she's not here for now. Like my daughter got married. My oldest is married.

And, you know, just different things that was happening. And I remember my mama would have, she would have flew, walked, baby got on a canoe whatever she had to do to get to us to be there to be support and I just I realized that I didn't appreciate her enough while she was living

you know because sometimes our parents you're like you just be in my mama you know what I mean but in retrospect she was like an anchor for our family yeah she held things together all the time so in my grieving I'm realizing how amazing she was

and I wish that I would have gotten a chance to tell her, even though I feel like she knew. Can I ask you? So my mother, when I had my daughter Ella, I was living in Los Angeles. And she came out and she stayed with me for six weeks. It was like two weeks before. I had her and then four weeks afterwards. And she was, you know, making breakfast for the other kids and making my bed and celebrating

with me when I was pumping breast. She was all in it. And I was like, Mom, thank you so much for this sacrifice. And she said, to be honest, she said, it is as much for you as it is for me because this is what my mother did for me and it makes me feel more connected to her showing up for you in this way.

Do you have moments like that? Absolutely. Like my daughter is, she's married now and I keep asking, so when are y'all thinking about having kids? Yeah. Because I get to be the grandparent my mama was. Because my mom's the same way. When I had my kids, she's coming. Un invited.

Honey. I just had this next surgery. I felt sorry for my man because my family is just rolling through that house. My mom doesn't ask no question. She just, they know she's showing up for whatever. So I want that. And that's so great that you say that because I think that's what I feel.

I feel the need to be connected to her in some way. I'm now, you know, doing things that I know my mama would have did. Just because I feel a little bit connected. I just, you know, my son, he's 16, he's 6.5. Okay. And, you know. 16 and 16 and 6.5. You got to take him down at the knees.

Yeah. Yeah. But my mom was adamant about games and stuff. Like she didn't miss anything. Grandparents' day, football, basketball, anything that's happening. You know, she didn't miss a moment. And so now, even with my team, I'm like, look, basketball is coming up. I got to be there.

I can't miss those moments. I just showed up at one of his pregnancies the other day. And he was like, Mom, why are you here? I was like, I just wanted to see you out there on the court. But in my mind, that's something. mama with a deal. She was just so overbearing and the weirdest. I love it. Let me

tell you, I love it because my mother, like, there are so many things she does where I'm like, that's ending with you. I cannot, I can't imagine showing up and cutting out on people the way you do. Yes. And I can imagine if she's no longer here being like, you know what?

I'm going to show up that cut up. I'm cutting up. It's time for me to act like my mama is here. Absolutely. I'm doing all the things. Cooking breakfast and, you know, all the things. My daughter, I visited their house. And when I got there, I said, I need y'all to go get me some salad and some salmon. My mom, when she got in my house, she put in a grocery order. She wants her own stuff in the fridge and just us do it. We laugh about it. But in some kind of way, it's comforting. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's very confident. Today's episode

is sponsored by Jevity. Now, let's take a minute in chat. I need to know why my car gets more consistent maintenance than I do. An oil change on the calendar. Tires checked. But when it comes to our bodies, we'll keep pushing, keep moving, keep handling everybody else's business. And meanwhile, we may not even fully understand what's happening in our own bodies. That's where Jevity comes in. Jevity is a longevity membership that includes advanced blood work twice a year, along with a personal care team that helps you understand your results and build a plan around your own biology. and I really like that it doesn't stop at getting the labs back. Anyone can hand you a lab report.

Jevity is a team that tells you what to do next and stays with you while you do it. Your care team helps walk you through what your results mean and you have ongoing check-in so you can continue paying attention to how things change over time. Sometimes it's not enough to hear everything looks normal. You want to understand your body. You want to ask better questions and know what your next step can look like. and that's what Jevity is designed to help you do. More life starts here.

Get started at gogevity.com slash woman evolve and use code woman evolve for 20% off your membership. That's G-O-G-E-V-I-T-I dot com slash woman evolve for 20% off today. Part of me I love and hate it because I know the grief of it is very painful. And my parents are, you know, my mom's 71. My dad is 69. And they're at this stage in their life where they're like, you know, we got more years behind us than we do ahead of us.

And so they're trying to like prepare us, I guess, for when that happens. And I can't imagine the pain. But I feel a sense of hope and that we get to keep them alive. Yeah. Yeah. Through those memories and those moments and those beautiful things. And luckily now we have so many pictures and videos of holidays. of holidays. My mama, she loved

Aretha Franklin. So, and my kids love Michael Jackson. So we got videos of us like moon walking around the house and, you know, and those things I'll cherish forever. And I still try to do that with my kids now. Just randomly on a Saturday morning, let's just turn on some loud music and dance.

You know, okay, so this, I feel like if someone's listening right now and they're like, how do I make sure I treasure those memories, I think sometimes we take pictures and videos of the big moments, the weddings, the graduations, but like just the regular moments in the kitchen. Are those the ones that you think you end up missing out on those are the ones that I have?

Yeah. Like we've recorded my mom's sleep on the couch tree, eating popcorn, just little things that we can go back and laugh at. The big moments are important, but it's those little moments that you really see stuff like Christmas was at my house every year. So we would do matching PJs and just set the phone up and make gingerbread houses or whatever. I can look at that stuff and laugh at us talking or my mom. trying to sing the song and the words wrong, you know?

So those are the beautiful moments that I have. And that's why when I travel now and tell people my heart is broken, but my faith is strong. You know, I know who God is and I know that he doesn't make mistakes. And even though I don't understand why he did it, I thank God that I'm in position to understand it in a way that allows me to grieve gracefully. Can we talk about that a little bit? Because I just came out of my own season of grieving things that I didn't understand that God allows. and having to wrestle with this idea of God is good and God is in the blessing business

and he's a miracle worker and he's a protector and he's a provider and he's all of these things while feeling unprotected while going through a hard season and trying to hold on to the truth of who he is while navigating the reality of where I am. How do we encourage people to navigate that season? You know, I think I read a quote.

I don't remember who said it, but beautiful things happen and terrible things happen. Yeah. You know, and life, you have the beauty of things, and then sometimes it is terrible. Like, it feels like life is falling apart. And I think what I've learned over the years is you have to be in every moment. Because if you're in a terrible season, but you are focusing on, and I'm going to get in trouble for saying this. But we have been taught church, God is good. It's going to be this.

And you know, God's going to come through. But there sometimes has to be a reality of where we are. You've got to sit in some of this stuff sometimes and say, yeah, it's pretty bad right now. And then we figure out how to navigate in that space. Once we understand it is bad, but it won't always be bad. Or it can't always be bad. I feel like that. It can't always be bad.

I think people all over the world, when things go bad, if your relationship with God is not strong enough, then it's like you have a high high and then you have a low low. For sure. And so I think we have to find balance in the middle of that thing saying, okay, all right, it's bad, but it'll get better. And these are the steps to do that. Now, you know, I'm a psychology major. So my mind thinks different than most people because the bad things are bad. But even in the worst of seasons, like this is a terrible season for me.

My mom snatched away. Yeah. You know, with no plan, no call, I didn't get to say goodbye. I just got a chief officer telling me your mom didn't make it in his car accident. I could not have prepared for that. Yeah. I could not have, with the full schedule of dates and things that I had to do. And I had to sit in that.

This is really, really the worst thing that could ever happen to me. But this is not the thing that will destroy me. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. It was bad. It was bad. It was really bad. You know, my people meet her because church people can be so interesting.

And they don't cry, Lisa. What? What? Don't cry. Yeah. Are you serious? How could I not cry? Then they stop and breathe.

I feel so, and all of that. And I know their intentions were well and they mean the best. But it was just, it was rough. Lisa, hold on, because you just, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. and it will also not be the thing that destroys me. Absolutely. I need a pulpit nurse and a lap scarf. I'm ready to lay out on the floor.

It's the truth. It will not. It will not. I lived a couple of days feeling, because you go through these levels of grief, I was feeling like I was really angry at God. Like, why would you do this to me? Yeah.

This really was rough. at the same time I had to really live then the life that I sing about God would not do that to you but there are going to be some beautiful and terrible things that happen and even in that

God woke me up out of my sleep one night and he said there would be redemption for your mom's death he says I will not let it be wasted so when I heard those words like God what do you mean about it You know, because I'm destroyed and I got to live now for the people around me. My kids, nobody understands why this happened.

You mean to tell me an 18-wheeler hits my mama, kills five, three people, enters two others. Big accidents all over the internet. I get to see this man's face. It was crazy. And I was thinking, I can't do this. And then something in me says, But you got to. You got to do this.

And you can do this because you can do hard things. And so one by one, one day at a time, I was getting up. I'm like, all right, I'm booked. All right, I'm going to go sing. All right. I'm going to go get on the plane. All right. And over the course of the next few weeks, I was like, oh, this thing will not take me out.

This thing will not destroy me. This thing will not. And I'm going to use this to help. other people because a lot of times that's how God works. We're trying to figure out why is this happening? Why did it happen to me? Why not you? Yeah, yeah.

And then how are you going to use it? I put this, how are you going to use it? And I've encouraged so many people. So many people have said to me, I lost my mom and I almost lost my mind and I was depressed and I was this and I was there. And watching you is changing my life. And I'm telling them, yeah, I almost lost my mind too. Right.

You know, I feel the same thing you did. I'm just getting up every day. Doing it again. I have a question for the parents. What is one money lesson you wish somebody had taught you when you were younger? Because as my kids get older, I'm realizing that there are certain things I want them to understand about money before they have to learn them the hard way. Like how to save, how to manage what they have, how to have some independence without just spending everything because it's there. And listen, baby, raising teenagers.

it already comes with enough things to keep track of. Their money does not need to become one more thing you're stressed about. For all of the parents out there with teenagers, we know you're already trying to keep a million different things under control. Cash app is here to help make sure your teen's money and their spending isn't adding to that craziness. With the cash app card available to teens 13 to 17 with sponsorship by an eligible parent or guardian, every transaction triggers a real-time notification for you to seem. empowering your teen to practice independence while giving you peace of mind by keeping track of their spending.

You can also manage everything directly from your own cash app account without having to switch between the two, making it simple to stay connected to your teen's financial activity in a way that's both efficient and empowering. Finally, no one wants unnecessary surprises. With cash app, there are no monthly fees, no minimum balance requirements, and no hidden charges when sending or receiving money. With the cash app card, you and your teen's balance receive 24-7 fraud monitoring, and if the card ever gets lost, you have the ability to lock their card right from your phone in just one tap. Parents, it's time to start focusing on your teen's financial learning and growth instead of stressing about the fine print. If you're ready to give your teen more independence while staying in the loop, start by downloading Cash App and sponsoring their account today.

Download Cash App today and sponsor your teen. our link in bio. Cash app is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash Apps Bank partners. Prepaid debit card issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC, cash app Visa debit flex cards issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC, and the Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton Prepaid Card, Sutton Debit Flex Card,

and Bancorp Debit Flex Card, and Bancorp Debit Flex Card. savings provided by Cash app, a Block Inc brand. Visit cash.app slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. You know, I think that I had to really challenge myself as it related to my relationship with God, especially in experiencing grief. Yeah. Because I'm like, I was angry. Like you, I was angry and frustrated. And I just didn't understand like, Lord, it seemed like everything was moving in the right direction,

finally getting things together. And this isn't just a setback. This is like you could die for four weeks. You could be paralyzed and then the surgery. And I realized that I really thought that like God's goodness was transactional for my life. Like I hope I can say this really good. But God's goodness is independent from the circumstances we face. Yes.

Like he's good because he's good. But it's like a friend wins a lottery. and they're rich, like, no, we rich. Like, your goodness ought to be consistently invading my life, making sure no badness happens to me. And that's how God can remain good in a difficult season because good is who he is. But it doesn't mean that life is always going to feel good.

And it doesn't mean that we're always going to have the best days. All that promises is that his goodness will be with us. He can help us in those seasons where life is hard. We can experience God's goodness. But it made me realize, like, so much, maybe not so much, but at least at that stage in my life, that my faith was transactional. Like, God, you're only good if my life is good.

That's all of us. Yeah. That's all of us. It's not until you get to the hard place that you realize that God is still good even though things are going bad. Yeah. I wrote a song. The first song I wrote after my mom's death,

it's called Goodness. Psalms 23 and 6, surely goodness and mercy shall follow you all the days of your life. That key word right there, follow. Follow. So you could be going through a terrible story. season, but the goodness is behind you. Don't play with me. Because Lisa, let me tell you, I will get fool in a minute. Me too. Because that's, I mean, okay. Follow. Follow. That means come up behind. That means I'm on the front lines of some things, and goodness, not always in front of me. It's not always in front of me, but it'll follow me. It's somewhere behind me. It's back there. Okay, all right. Don't shout me. Don't. Don't shout me. But it's the truth.

It's literally what we're talking about now. You went through a really rough season. Yeah. Rough season. Yeah. Beautiful and terrible things. But goodness was behind you. It was there all of the time because it'll follow you all the days.

Yeah. Every day. Good day, bad day. I say that when I go sing, if it's raining outside, yeah, it's raining outside. But God is still good even on a rainy day. Yeah. He's still great. Even when things are terrible because that's who he is.

That's an attribute, characteristics of God. You know, we are transactional. Right. You got to do this and then you're going to be a good guy. Then we'll see if you're good. Yeah, then we're going to see if you're good. Mind you, okay, since you want to play with me, mind you, he didn't wait to see if we was good.

When he created us, he called it good before we did anything at all. We didn't do anything. He said it's very good. Yes. He was never transactional with us. It was never about performance. He called us good before anything. He knew we were going to eat from the tree instead that we were good.

But we will snatch our good back from him in a minute. When he doesn't do what we want to do and move out quickly, just like that. My mom, I could have said, you know what? We're finished. We're done. And many have. And I'm trying to encourage somebody. Listen, we can't be transactional with God.

He's good even when it's bad. And even the bad things work for your good. Now, let me tell you how bad he is. Let me tell you about how bad your good God is. Let me tell you something. That I can even take those things that you didn't want to deal with that you didn't want to face. And I can work them together. Now I'm not to work them.

I got to work it. Because it wasn't all good. But in the end, it's going to be good. Because that's how good God is. We can't tell. I'm not going to do it with you today. But that's the truth. But you know what?

I will say coming off the heels of my difficult season, which I'm not at all comparing to yours. Absolutely. The challenge is completely different. There is something. in me that has recategorized what a problem is. Yes. What's going to take me out? Yes.

What's actually an issue? What's not? You know, it used to be, oh, my gosh, if I disappoint somebody, it's just going to kid, oh, they're going to be upset about me. Oh, they're going to talk about me. Baby, when you really go through something. Talk about it. There are some things that just, they don't, they can't even afford to pay your

attention anymore. You can't even afford my attention right now. The price is so high after what I've got. gone through that you cannot afford it. I promise you. Listen, and that's a beautiful place to be in. Because a lot of times, because of, you know, I would only imagine with you, so many people depend on you and watch you, and they depend on your word, and they depend on your presence, and it's a lot of weight to carry because you just can't, it's not just your family you can't

let down. You got millions of women who are watching you daily. I was one of them. I'm still one of them, literally inspired by your journey. And sometimes we put that obligation over ourselves. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And then it's when you have a moment like you've experienced where you say, you know what? If something happens. Yeah. Yeah. In a minute. Let me tell. I was just explaining to you the whole with me, the conference and having to postpone and we got more refunds than we had resources to facilitate. So we were putting things together and there was this Facebook group and people were talking bad about me. and they're probably talking bad about me somewhere about something else. But it just meant like I could have put my life on the line to show up for in the moment where my life is on the line. And I've had to readjust and I can't show up the way you want me to.

You're talking about it ain't then called me everything but a child of God. They will do it. That's why we have to make sure that when we're making decisions, you're doing it for you. And what does God say? Yeah, what does God say? I promise you. I really felt like it was. test when it came to the point was like you could push it and push your body and play games

with this surgery at the expense of showing up for other people or you can trust me and not act like this is the only door and only opportunity you'll ever have to show up for people if you're going to do this for the long call you're going to take care of you but i really felt like it was a test because i've spent my whole life saying that if i do ministry that i was going to take care of my health i was going to take care of my family that i wasn't going to run myself down to the ground and and just do some of the things that I've seen done before. And then I was standing in the moment where I actually had to make the choice. I'm giving you the sister side eye.

I know. Because, honey, it's a real thing. Yeah. And you got to be good for us. Yeah. And not just for us. I don't mean it in a selfish way. No.

I mean that in a, you got to be good for you. Yeah. Because when you're good for you, then you're good for us. Yeah. You're good for the call. Pastor T. Renee Glenn told me at a Woman Evolve conference. And it was the first woman evolved that we'd had at Globe. Lepharina's 40,000 women there.

And I was scared because, Lord, you've trusted me with so much influence. And I don't want to mess it up, you know? And I don't want to lose myself. And I don't want to become a caricature of myself. Yeah. And she was praying and she prayed into my ear and she says, your health is going to be well. Your mind is going to be well. Your family is going to be well so that you can show people that you can do this and be well.

Yeah. And I knew that it was a word from God because you've seen some of the stories behind the scenes. And the people who moved a room and then drank themselves to sleep in night. Absolutely. Or had to do some type of drug after praying addiction off of somebody else. And I just don't want that. I really, really want to be the real deal. And I want a healthy marriage.

And I want my kids to be taken care of. And sometimes that means disappointing the people so that you can have something to give the ones who stay. That's the truth. Yeah. And we got to be mature enough to live with that. Yeah. Because I think sometimes that's the hard part. After I have to go back to comparing this season with my mom because it's been the toughest thing I had to go through.

This is what I realized. People like, oh my God, I feel so sorry for you. I'm praying for you. But can you come sing though? Yeah, right. We love you. Oh, my God. We're praying.

But are you booked on this day? Yeah. So how quickly they forget about our life. you know, what we've gone through because they have a need that needs to be fulfilled. They have something that they need you to do for them. So I learned, I'm going to take care of myself. Yes. I canceled shows this year.

Yeah. I've never done that. Yeah. I got my team like, yep, I don't want to go. And when you come from a family of work ethic canceling any? It's a no, no. Sick, dead. My father was like, Sarah, are you sure?

I was like, Daddy, I don't. I don't, one, I didn't think I was going to need her. So I didn't pray, Lord. Oh, yeah. heal me. I'm not going to need surgery. So I go on there four weeks later and say you need surgery. Now I don't know what to expect from God. So I'm like, do I proclaim my healing or do I prepare for an extended recovery? I didn't know what to expect. And so I didn't want to, I knew that if we waited late, that people were going to be even more upset. Because now you didn't play with my time and in my face. And my dad was like, well, you can't unscramble eggs, but I wish you wouldn't have done that. Ooh, you can't unscramble eggs.

What do you know? I mean Bishop. I mean, Bishop. But that's so good It's already done It's already done He said you can't unscrammeled eggs So whatever it is You just got to stand up to it now Yeah

Yeah Wow I enjoy you I enjoy you We're the same We are the same I knew that already How did you know

Because so I started a conference In 2017 called The Loving Me Again Women's Conference Right It was right after you You wrote a book Around a bit that time I bought

I can't think of it now But I bought the book Read the book and I realized that between 20 and 30, I was 30 when I started this thing. And I was like, I don't know me. You were making posts. I think when woman evolved, something was happening, but you were sharing stories of your life.

So it would be a picture of you as a teenager with the baby, you know, and there'd be this insert of what was happening and why this picture was important. And I was so inspired by that. And I was like, you know what? We are a lot of like the words that you say and the way that you conveyed the message. Because I was a young parent. I was 19. had a baby out of wedlock

and the world because I was singing the gospel I said don't you get up there singing in front of people and you got this baby you hear me and then I had to go stand

before the church and tell the people I'm sorry and I had to get out of the choir and in that moment I started that conference because

it's called loving me again because I said people can only mirror they mirror what you give them they love you the way you love yourself Yeah. So there was a beautiful thing that I thought you were taking this bad thing and making it a beautiful thing.

Yeah. And using it to tell a story of your life and of your, this is what happened. Yeah, this is it. But I'm not going to let this thing define me. I'm going to change the definition. When you see this, you know that this is what God, I evolved into this beautiful woman. You know what I mean? So I felt so connected to you.

Like, in my head, you're saying, you're going to be. like my best friend. We were sitting up listening to Brandy together. Sitting up in my room. Oh, goodness. Okay, you know what I love, though? As a church girl, to be able to say there have been moments where me being a woman in church, having had choices that required me to tap into the grace of God. Yes. It meant that I experienced the rejection of people.

Yeah. And still coming back to serve in a space that, you know, would not have welcomed you in some of your more raw forms. Yeah. I think I'm noticing this, and I think it's because I served so many women who grew up in church, left the church, don't do church, church-adjacent. That is difficult to honor a place that wouldn't honor you in some of your worst moments. And yet I do feel like part of my call, especially as a woman who has moved into more prominent spaces.

And the church is to take up space for all of the women who had to sit on the back pew or who were asked to leave because of the choices they've made and decisions they made to say that same God, that same Jesus that helped him when he had his affair. that helped him when he had his addiction, those little secret sins that nobody knew about. It's standing with me with the baby on my hip or the swollen of the same God and grace is available for me. How important is it do you think it is for women who have been harmed but called into church spaces to reconcile?

That's so good. My sister preaches a sermon called Damaged Goods. And so when we talk about it, She always talks about what a box looks like after the package has been delivered and it's beat up and it's torn and it's all these things. But on the inside, whatever you order is still good. And I think it's important for women to see women like me who had baby. And I was ashamed. Facebook used to have this little thing where people could leave anonymous messages to you.

Oh, yeah. And you remember that. And so somebody told me, you don't need to be up singing. You got their baby out of bed like you got this. You got that. But I also learned that we kind of. misunderstand, we confuse church with God. Yes.

You know what I mean? A lot of people who have church hurt, they have people hurt. It's not God hurt. You know what I mean? It is a person who maybe didn't understand. So I just, my grandmother, again, I always go back to reference the way I was raised. My grandma was the first lady. And I would hear her talk about the women in the church and the people was doing all

kind of stuff. But I never saw it affect her. And so what I learned from that and what I gathered from that is that things are going to happen. You know, people are going to say what they want to say. I got to live with myself with the mistakes that I've made and things that I've done. But I won't let people categorize me. And I walked in shame for a long time.

But at 30, something clicked in me in 30. I said, you know what? You know what? Because we all got closets. Yeah, we do. Well, you know, Jesus did tell them if you don't have a sin, you can throw a stone. You can be the first one. But then the stones had fell on the floor because then they had to live with themselves.

period. So what had happened was that's kind of where I was, I am in life. And at 30s, that's where I was at. I was like, you know what? Y'all didn't do some stuff too. Yeah.

I can talk about, you know, X, Y, Z. And even more than that, because I don't ever want to, when people bring out a flaw in me, I don't want to be the person be like, but you did. You know what I mean?

It's, I own it. It's this level of ownership that had to happen. So, you know, I was like, okay, yeah, I did. I'm not proud of that. But let me tell you what I learned from it. And that's where loving me was birth

from. We took a bunch of young women. We had over 300 women in Birmingham. I just put it on Facebook one day. I was like, would y'all meet me? And they was like, yeah, over 300 women showed up. And we literally talked about our life and mistakes and things and said, but it doesn't have to define you. It doesn't have to be who you are. It's what you did. Yeah. It was a mistake or whatever. Maybe it wasn't. Whatever it is, you don't have to be defined by that. And so we turned to, again, we watch how God can use something that seems terrible

and work it for your good. Because I was very ashamed to have a baby at 19. I was nervous and walking around high on my face and all that kind of stuff. And God said, but you did it. It's over with us. It happened. Now what are you going to do with it?

Yeah. So now I'm going to inspire other women. Let me tell you, baby, let me tell you so-and-so, don't believe him. And so we had that conference and it was just a, it was beautiful. God allows us to go through things that are not necessarily for us. Yeah. They become a part of the story that we build. That's so good.

I have found that when you own your story, it can't be ammunition in someone else's gun. Cannot. Like, you can't shoot me. You can't use that against me. You can't use, because that's fully me, it's fully integrated now. And now I, because I'm fully owning myself, when you tell me who I am, because I know who I am for real, you can't tell me no lie. Yeah. Because I know.

Yeah, I know who I am. And I'm not going to run away. I think a lot of times we've been taught to hide our mistakes. You know, hide the addictions and hide the pain and hide the, but I think if we would actually live with some of it sometimes, maybe we can live through it. Yeah, for sure. You know what I mean?

Man, I really feel like one of my prayers for church as a whole and perhaps the corner of it that God is trusting me to serve is that we will create spaces where we give people. permission to be where they are. Instead of telling them first where they need to be. Because if we don't start with where, if where they're starting from, it's already condemned, shame,

God can't get no glory, why would they even open their hearts? They won't. But all throughout scripture, we see a Jesus who meets people where they are. He goes out of his way to the woman in Samaria. He stays with the woman caught in the act of adultery. He goes out of his way to meet people where they are.

He doesn't say, just bring them to me. There are moments where people come to him, sure. But then there are moments where he goes to where they are. And I just pray that we can get to a space where we are comfortable enough in our salvation and trusting enough of God's power that we can get people permission to be who they are and where they are. And we can go and get them without feeling like it's going to contaminate us. I love that. Or we're going to keep talking to ourselves.

Oh, that is so good. Okay, let me hold on now. I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't trying to make you preach. No, no, you did that on your own. Oh, girl, no, you know, I didn't go back to school. Really? Yes, I'm going back to get my bachelor's. Yes, and it is in human development and family studies. Okay. And you went back to school as well. I did.

Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your why? So I had a baby out of Whitlock. I was in college then, 19 years old, dropped out of school, and it was just always something that I wanted to do. Like, I had a list of things that I wanted to accomplish. I wrote in a journal my whole life. So one of the things, I want to go to college graduate. I'd be the first of my family to do so if I had done it then. And I actually still end up being the first of my family to graduate.

But at 38, we were right in a pandemic. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to go back to school. And I did. I started all the way over. Yeah. Literally started from scratch. And I got my degree in psychology.

And it's wonderful because I was like the oldest. I pledged at the time as well. And I was the oldest. Have you, you pledged? What's you pledged child? Alpha Kappa Alpha. You know, they've canceled the sorority. I heard, yeah.

They say it's canceled, but they should cancel some other stuff. But I don't cancel all the things. They just cancel some of the things. But they cancel them for the wrong reasons. Tell me about it. Yeah. Hallelujah. We're going to go, yeah.

But I was the oldest. Okay. And, you know, I think it was just for me, I feel like I had done something and completed something. That's the word that I started. Yeah. I wrote a song that I've never sang anywhere, but it's called Finish. And basically, it says, I want to finish what I start. No matter how I feel, I don't have to be first.

I could be less as long as it's your will. Those are the words. And so with this, I feel like it was the will of God for me. I felt like I needed to do this for me, for my kids, for my family. And the whole purpose of the psychology degree was to do family counseling and Christian environments. I think that church people need a couch and Jesus. They do. They do.

Yeah. And I'm grateful that we are embracing that. Absolutely. Yeah. There was a time we wouldn't have those conversations. But I tell people all the time, scripture says it's clear to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I think that's one of the things that we don't really, really pay attention to.

Like, if your mind ain't right, if your mind ate up. Yeah. And let me tell you, the way life is, like nine times down 10, that mind been chew through. And it's okay to admit that you want it back. And we need to talk about it. And you just were saying something about how we, we cannot deliver people from things that we can't acknowledge. Right.

You've got to name it. Yes. Yes, you're depressed. But let's talk about why you're depressed. Yes, you're going through this, whatever this moment is and you have this addiction. Let's talk about what led you to it. Because if we don't fix that thing, we can pray for the addiction.

But it becomes this cycle. Mm-hmm. Can I, okay, so this is really random, but because you went for psychology, I have thoughts. So I, so in addition going back from my bachelor's, I'm also taking a course at seminary. Okay. It's like a year-long course. And one of it is, it's about ministry and mental illness in particular, outside of just depression and anxiety, you know, schizophrenia, bipolar disorders. And how the extent of our theology as it relates to mental illness has been deliverance.

And when God doesn't deliver, then they no longer have a space in the church or they feel awkward or comfortable uncomfortable. Can we talk a little bit about like who we will have to become as a church to respond responsibly to mental illness when there is not instantaneous deliverance? Mind you, I'm not saying that it cannot happen. I got you. But the reality that many people experience is that they don't get that instantaneous deliverance. They need to take their message. This is something that they experience for their lifetime, and that is not an indictment on their faith, and it doesn't mean that God loves them less, or that there's something wrong with them. But if we don't bridge that gap, I'm afraid that we're going to have an issue with people who feel disconnected from Jesus. Yeah, I think that's, first of all, is loaded. I read a book years ago called Pigs and Apollo that talks about deliverance, talks about schizophrenia, talks about bipolar. It talks about those things, being.

a part of deliverance. Like basically, you know, in a nutshell, we have to understand when we're dealing with certain spirits and certain things, how to speak to it to help people get delivered, so to speak. But I do think that we are

in certain spaces, especially in church, we're unaware of what we're dealing with. We don't know how to approach it, how to handle it. And that's why I think it's important that we have psychiatrists, psychologists, people who are knowledgeable of the book term, what is it, what is bipolar disease? What does schizophrenia look like? And I think there are times when we are calling it a demon and we're saying, and we don't

know how to navigate and categorize those things so that we can help people be freed. So I think it's really important that we do have, that the church has the conversation and that we have an open mind to what that looks like. Because I do feel like we're missing or missing an opportunity. to help people in a more fluid and organic way. Does that make sense? It does. Okay, I know you got it.

It does. And I do think if I can just underscore what has been stated. Yes. That there is an opportunity for us to acknowledge the miracles that come in different forms. You said it. Yeah. Because, I mean, the fact, I was thinking about this surgery that I had, that he went in through my neck, that he moved my vocal cord. and a muscle, access my spinal cord, took a disc,

I took two disc out, put a metal spacer in between them, titanium plate, screwed it back together. And I was like, God, I thought you was going to heal me. And he was like, that was it, that surgery, the fact that someone even came to a place where they were able to perform that level of surgery, and for you to recover within a matter of weeks is a miracle. That's so good. And sometimes we discredit the miracle because it didn't come in the form that we anticipated.

That's good. And healing and deliverance may come from different forms. You made me think about my grandmother. She would say, yeah, you got high blood pressure. And God can, you know, he can deliver it. But you got to stop eating out of pork too. Two things can be true. And you got to take your medicine.

Yeah, yeah. So that's exactly. And my lamest terms and even the way you just described it, it's the same thing. We need them both. Yeah, we do. We really do. And I think we got to give permission to people permission to do both. Absolutely.

I think that's one of the things that I hope to normal. through my ministry is to remove some of the stigma that comes with getting the tools that God has allowed us to have access to so that we can live the types of lives that God wanted us to experience. You know, I think it's too because we're, it's so funny because our generation, we're a little bit more aware, a little bit more knowledgeable of things that our parents, and the generations I'll say before us, they, all they knew was till God to do it. Tell God to fix it. Tell God to heal you.

Tell God to all of that. But there's a generation now, we're like, okay, we need God to do it, but he need a little bit of our help too. We've got to make a step towards our own healing, a step towards understanding what it looks like to even be healed. We're waiting on something that we've never seen. How do you know? Because again, like you just said, we're expecting God to do like a ta-da. It's like magic. He touched you and then all of a sudden it's gone.

But sometimes there's a process connected to that. You know, and if I were preaching, I would grab the text. I'm sorry. And I would say that there are so many miracles in the Bible that we preach about, proclaim, that required participation. Absolutely. He had to pick up a bed and walk. A lot of times. He commended the one with the issue.

He said, your faith, the fact that you went out of your way. And did this. That's what. It wasn't just what I carried is that you went out of your way to receive what I carry. He told the ten lepers to go. Yeah. The healing came in the going. In the going.

So to think that the miracle is going to come without some participation is a fallacy. It may be calling the therapist. It may be taking the medicine. You may have to go and get some partnership for this healing. That's it. Who wanted with us? Nobody. Nobody.

I know they don't. Okay. I have some rapid fire for you. If you had to eat one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be? Rice. Like with sugar and butter? Because you're from... Wait a minute.

I'm just saying, because listen, I come from... country stock myself and they don't eat rice unless it's got sugar and butter in it i don't food with no sugar on my rights or grits oh i've tapped into something here okay this is serious all right salt pepper butter you know grits could use baby you are turning this thing into a dessert you hear me grits could use sis like well on the shrimp i get it but for breakfast they could use it's like Like, you know how you had like pancakes or what? It's just like a little bit of sweetness with them eggs and bacon. I'm going to let you do it.

Okay. When you make our grits, you make sure you make a play. Put mine to the side. I have this sugar on my serving. Okay, we heard you believe sorbet is better than ice cream. Yes. Why are you so? First of all, somebody who don't put sugar in their grits.

You're not allowed to even be in on the sorbet or ice cream debate. Why not? Sorbet? First of all, sorbet. Sorbet, fruit. That's ice. That ain't nothing but frozen ice. But it's fruit-flavored ice.

It's good for you. You should try it. Stay away from the ice cream. Ice cream is so powerful that you can be lactose and still sign up for. That is so funny. What flavor sorbet? Peach mango. I'm a citrus girl.

You too classy for me. When did you first have sorbet and decide it was better than ice cream? In Memphis, tell me about it. First of all. You too classy. Let me tell you. I went on the One Love cruise. Oh, okay.

It was on a cruise. And we went to the little dinner, and I had to choose between the ice cream or to say Bay. So when the Sorbet came, I was like, oh, so refreshing. This is luscious. Did you put your pinky up when you ate? I did, because you ain't fancy unless you eat it like this. It was awesome, though. And I'm just, you know, I'm a Sorbet girl.

That's what I'm going to say. You're classy. Okay, okay, you're from Memphis. I'm going to Memphis. What's the one food spot or meal that I must have? have when I go home to your home. You know, to be honest with you, I would say Memphis is known for barbecue. Okay.

So I'm not sure if you like grill food, barbecue food. I do. But I would say probably some hood A&R barbecue. Okay. Hood A&R barbecue. You know, well, I stayed at Graceland Hotel once before. It's got ghosts. It got, what?

Did you say it's got ghosts? Yeah. Now see, I lived in Memphis for 32 years. I've never been to Graceland. Really? Okay. Your eyes told me a story. What?

Now, when we were young, they used to have a big plane. Elvis's plane used to be, and you could walk through the plane. It's not there anymore. But I've never been to Graceland. Let me do. It was, I guess it's the hotel that I don't know why we ended up, but the TV was coming on. Did you get up and start praying and speaking in tongues? Lisa, you don't understand.

When I tell you, I bind everything. When I tell you, we got to get up out of here, take me to the bus. Please. I don't know what we got going on over here, but it ain't for me. Okay. Ooh, this is going to be rough. Okay. And you're going to upset some of your friends.

Jesus. But you're on the Woman Evol podcast and you got to answer the question. Okay. I need you to build your Mount Rushmore of gospel singers. Jesus. Now you're trying to get me in trouble. Talk about it. Talk about it. Sell her awards, I want you to listen.

She got an announcement. Wait a minute. My Mount Rushmore. A female? What are we talking? It don't matter. Upset them all. Okay. I'm just going to stick with the girls. I'm going to stick with the girls.

My Mount Rushmore. Jesus. All right. All right. I'm going out of a limb here. First, Duranda Clark Cole. Okay. I love Duranda.

I grew up. I loved the raspingness. My voice was always raspy. So when I start singing, I sound like I've been smoking. I didn't say that. Let me tell you, if it was anywhere to say it, it was the Woman Evol podcast. So I had this rasp. And her rasp, she had the ability to do so many amazing things in her voice.

So Dorenda Clark Cole. Shirley Sears. Yeah. Let me tell you why, though. Okay. Because Shirley is, I don't know, in her 80s right now. and she can still, like, got it.

Like, really, can really still sing. Like, so watching her, watching some of those old videos of her in black and white, and vocally, she's been able to maintain her voice. She goes down as, like, one of the greatest of all times. So Shirley, okay,

Duranda Shirley, Kim Burrell. Okay. Kim told me how to do all my riffs and runs. I love her. Oh, see, you know, was only four people on Mount Rushmore. Did you know that? I'm aware of that. Yeah, you're not fair. Can you do a Kim run from you?

Let me see. Kim. Oh, Lou, I like that. I didn't want to. Did you hear mine? I don't know if it was a competition, but mine had a little something on it. Yeah, I feel like I heard that. You went, looom. Yeah, it was there. It did all the little. It did. I made sure to do all of that when I did mine. You got it. You got it. All right. Fourth person on Mount Rushmore.

Oh, Sarah, this is not fair. I told you it's going to upset some things. This is so not, do I have to? Got to. Got to. I am stumped right now. Okay, I'm going to go to Sean Pace. Okay, that's fair.

I'm going to go to Sean Pace because I feel like she was very innovative at a time. She was doing things vocally that was just unheard of. So, I mean, yeah, that's so not fair. She could have gave me like, she could have gave me top. Lisa does not She can Natasha, I know I was talking to you

on the way down here you've heard it here first. Oh, that is so funny. She did me bad with this one, y'all. I'm coming back. I'm going to post my top 20 because it's a lot of amazing singers, you know. Okay.

I'll love, I love. I need you to fill in the blank. I knew I was evolving when. I stopped caring what other people thought. Yeah. When I got to the point where it didn't matter what they thought about me or what they said.

I realized that I had evolved into a woman. Yeah. Clock it at that. I promise you, I am still sitting with a reminder that healing doesn't always look the way we expected to and faith doesn't mean we have to pretend that hard things aren't happening. Sometimes healing looks like grieving, honestly.

Sometimes it's setting a boundary. sometimes it's asking for help, is taking the medicine, calling the therapist, or simply deciding that what happened to you will not be the thing that defines you. And maybe that's the invitation for us this week, to be honest about where we are,

while still believing that God is present there too. His goodness is not dependent on our circumstances. And even in seasons that hurt, there can still be growth, purpose, and redemption. Whatever you're caring, I pray that this episode with Lisa, mind at you that you do not have to rush that process. Hide your story, nor do you have to have every answer before you take the next step. Lord, I just pray right now that you would allow us to

experience your faithfulness and our uncertainty. Your faithfulness can show up in so many different ways. Your faithfulness to show us your presence, to allow us to experience your love, to allow us to have kindness and generosity, your faithfulness, to just be who you are in season and out of season. When we can't count on anything else, we can count on that. And so, God, I pray for a fresh wave of confidence to meet your sons and daughters who are listening to this podcast that they would trust you when they feel they can't trust anything else. And I thank you, God, that as they do that, that they will experience your grace and your peace in Jesus' name. Amen.