Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Processing Grief, Faith, and the Unexpected with Nicole Avant

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

Ahead of Mother’s Day, former diplomat Nicole Avant shares a powerful testimony shaped by faith, grief, and identity following the loss of both her mother and father. Reflections on her parents’ extraordinary lives reveal formative lessons that continue to inform how she navigates the world. What so beautifully emerges in conversation with host Sarah Jakes Roberts is a reminder that resilience is inherited, refined through experience, and anchored in faith. Listen in for a story that lingers long after it ends. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My mom would always say, you know, also, if you know when you leave this earth that you made even just one or few people's lives easier, better, made people feel valuable and taken care of and loved, you've succeeded. What's up? This is Sarah Jake's Roberts and you are listening to the WOM and Evolv podcast. What's up with you? What has been going on in your world? Are you one of those people who are in the season of your life where you're like, listen, I am thriving and flourishing. is going well in my world, or does it look like it's going well and on the inside you're crumbling, or do you look like what you're going through and is all coming down? I don't know where you are or at what stage of life you are in, but it is my prayer that this podcast needs you right when you need it the most and that it will be a gift from God that strengthens your heart. There are so many times when we look at people's lives, especially when we're going through something or taking inventory of our lives, and we think to ourselves, they really seem like

they have it going together on the outside, but on the inside, there's something else happening, something that we would never guess because we did not take the time to look beneath the surface. That is what I am going to challenge you to do this episode, is to dare to look beneath the surface. I remember this story when I was a young girl after I'd had my son and I was talking to my father, and a lot of you know, but I was a teen mother, my father's a pastor, and whenever I went to church with my son, there was always this lady who would look at me whenever I was holding my baby. And I always felt like she was judging me because I was a teen mom and I had received so much judgment, so much criticism. And I told my father, I don't want to go to church anymore. Every time I go to

church, people are staring at me. They're looking at me with shame or pity. And I would rather just not go at all. And I'm like, especially this one lady. I always see her in the hallway and she's just looking at me with so much disappointment. And my father goes on to tell me that that woman in particular had actually had an abortion when she was a teenager and that it was something that plagued her throughout her life. And it taught me a valuable lesson about what we think people are seeing when they're looking at us and even what we think we see when we look at others. Sometimes we are making up stories in our head based off of our insecurities and fears without any idea of what's actually happening in their life. And that has been something that I keep with me as I engage with

other people. Oftentimes we're all fighting battles that the other person can't see. And I am hopeful that this week, as you are listening to this podcast, that you feel like someone else is in the fight with you. There are so many mind your business questions that we get. First of all, I am enjoying it. If you want me to mind your business, I want to remind you that you can call me at 214-790-871, and I can mind your business. Now, listen, let me tell you something. I'm going to pray about it. I'm going to seek the Lord and I'm going to offer you what I can from my experiences. Sometimes it just helps to hear someone from the outside looking in hearing your story. But also take everything I say to the Lord in prayer.

Okay, I want you to test everything that I tell you because I want you to live a life that has a conviction from God that you can say, you know what? She said it. I took it to the Lord and now I'm ready to live it. Or maybe it's something that you wait and keep for later. Either way, I enjoy that I have the privilege of minding your business. So let's listen to this week's question. Hey Sarah, Ashley calling all the way from Bronx, New York.

Hope you're going well. I do have a question that I need to do the mind in my business. How do I stay submitted to God's process and not grow weary or offended when I know I'm called for doors somewhat, especially in my own church, feel delayed or blah? I already know that there are so many people who can relate to your story. First of all, what's up in New York? That accent was coming through heavy. I want to thank you so much for trusting me with this part of your life. There is nothing like feeling discouragement when we feel like God has given us a specific purpose or direction.

And for reasons we understand or maybe don't understand, things aren't unfolding the way that we anticipate. It's even more complicated when it happens in an environment that's supposed to edify us like a spiritual environment. This is the place that we come into when we think people will support me, they will encourage me, And then we find out the devastating news that the people who are in the church are often just like the people outside of the church. It's almost as if people from the outside got into the inside and they're in a process of being changed and transformed or maybe staying the same just like the rest of us. I'm trying to have more grace. I'm obviously in a leadership position at church. And so I try not to talk badly about church people because I'm a church people.

But I always try to remind people that they're on a journey themselves. I say that to say, when you experience disappointment or discouragement because of the way that you've been handled in church, and it feels like the people who are doing this treatment or giving you this treatment are people who have the power to block your blessing. I am telling you right now that you are beginning to make their authority more powerful than God's authority. If the word that you received came from God and you knew it came from God because it resonated in your spirit, it broke through all of your excuses. People often wonder like, how do I know it came from God? It passes our logic and our understanding.

It hits our spirit. It's almost like it awakens a part of us that have been lying dormant. That's what it feels like to get a word from God that resonates with us so deeply. It is so important that we continue to meditate, not just on the word that we received or the outcome that we received, but the giver of the word. if I can keep my eyes focused on the giver of the word, then my focus doesn't shift when he starts to use the people in my environment to pave away for that word to be made manifest in my life. The reality is that God uses people to facilitate whatever his plan and purposes are. And when God uses people to facilitate that plan, sometimes he's got to move some people out of the way.

Sometimes he has to reveal to you who some people are. And so while God is rearranging your world to make space for, for the world, you have to tone in on the gift of not being distracted by the noise of the movement. Right now, I am filming this podcast. There are people behind the camera. There are people to the side of me, but I am locked in on you. That's the same thing you're going to have to do when you get a word from God. You're going to have to lock in on the word with such intention, with such intensity that even when there are distractions around you, you stay locked in. And when we begin to do that, even when things start shifting that we understand or don't understand,

it doesn't knock us off our square because the mission in front of us, which is just to hang on to that word, not to manipulate it, not to manufacture it. Our goal is to just hang on to that word and to continue to perfect our spirit. God takes care of the rest. There's a scripture that I'm sure you've heard before, but because you use the word weary, I want to offer it to you as something to consider for you to hang on to hear. to in those moments where you get weary. If you have been around church, raised in church, or are in your word and cultivating your own relationship with God, it will not be an unfamiliar

scripture, but I want to point out something to you. It is in Galatians, 6 and 9, and it says, and let us not grow weary while doing good for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Some of you may have heard that scripture before, but I want to hone in on a very specific word. It doesn't say let us not get weary. It doesn't say let us not be weary. It says let us not grow weary. That means that there will be moments where you feel weary, where you may even sense within yourself that weariness is on you, but you have to ask yourself, what thoughts, what environments grow my weariness? Because I do not want this weariness to grow. So the moment you begin to identify it, Don't ignore it because that's how weariness grows. When we ignore what's making us weary,

we never attack what keeps it from showing up in our lives. And so begin to ask yourself, what makes me grow weary? Am I beginning to feed into this perspective that these people have the power to control what God has placed on me and placed in my life? If that is what's making me grow weary, then I need to change my perspective on who is really in control. Are there certain atmospheres where people are talking about these people negatively, and it is feeding my weariness and making me more discouraged because maybe I need to change my conversations. I want you to consider what environments, what words are growing my weariness because I want my heart to be pure and I want it to be strong enough for when it's time to run my mission.

Part of the reason why Paul writes this letter about not growing weary is because we're going to need strength for the mission, strength for the journey. and that's what I want you to have. If I can, I want to share with you just another verse to marinate on. It's in Psalm 27, verse 14. It says, wait on the Lord, be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart. Wait, I say. The reason why I wanted to highlight that is because there may be seasons for you when in order to not grow your weariness, you have to take a pause. I can't keep serving because right now serving is growing my weariness. I can't keep showing up for you in the way that I've been showing up because it is growing my weariness. I have to take a minute, restore, reflect to keep my eyes on who is really in control and then engage when I have good courage. And so I hope that that is helpful to you.

You talked about growing weary and feeling like that vision from God could be delayed or denied. When a vision comes from God, his word does not return to him void and there is no man on earth nor power in hell that can keep what God has ordained for you from coming to you so you make sure that you don't get in the way. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and I feel like it is time for us to acknowledge something that we do not always speak about, and that is the reality that we can know God, love God, be in our word, pray, meditate, and still have moments where we are mentally and emotionally overwhelmed. Our relationship with God is meant to help us sit in the tension of what it means to be human. And part of the human experience is that sometimes we have good days. We have strong days where we feel like we can take on the world and where joy comes easy.

And then there are moments where it takes a little bit of work. I want you to know that there is power in prayer to open your heart up, to help you understand what's happening in this season of your life. Sometimes when we don't have emotional language, there's an opportunity for us ask God literally search my heart, what's going on with me? What am I carrying that could be hurting me, that could be bringing me down? And then to ask God for tips and tools and strategy. Sometimes we simply ask for deliverance. I just want to be free. But we have to be asking questions like, do I need to talk to a therapist? Can I open up with a friend? Are there some books that I can be

reading? I don't want you to feel like it is just between you and God alone to figure out what's happening with you because God often places solutions, healing, and deliverance in the hands of other people. Oh, and can I just say this? It is not good for man to live alone. I don't know what's going on in your heart right now, what's going on in your mind right now, but I want you to be encouraged to perhaps let someone into that space, let someone into your heart and your mind and what's happening in your world. If there's no one around you right now who can handle that, then sometimes there are support groups we can look up. I just don't want you to become comfortable and be okay with this restlessness in your soul and your spirit. You deserve to be able to parse through all of

your traumas and triggers and things that have happened to you so that you have a relationship with God that is not just built on you being okay all of the time, but you come to recognize that the Lord can be with you even in those moments where things are a little bit more challenging and difficult. For me, that's been one of my greatest blessings and coming to a space where I am in relationship with God on my own is recognizing that I don't have to have it all together all at the time. There is a verse in scripture that talks about as not having a high priest who can't empathize with us. So whenever I'm feeling something, whether it's shame, embarrassment, misunderstood, I always go to scripture. I'm like, has Jesus ever felt this way? And undoubtedly, I have moments

where he was talked about. I find moments where he felt ashamed. I had moments where he felt compassion, where he felt conflicted. And so that's another way to help you understand that, one, it is okay for you to have those feelings, but there are moments where it's not okay for those feelings to have you. Our feelings are data, it's information. When it begins to become our identity, we need intervention. All this month, we're going to be talking about ways that we can navigate mental health that allows us to integrate our faith and awaken us to what God has for us. One of the reasons why I feel like this conversation is so important is because life is happening to all of us, no matter what. For those who feel like, you know what, everyone who's making a

certain amount of money, they must not be struggling. People who have a certain amount of success must be okay. Oh, if I was married, if I had my parents in my life, I would be feeling so much better. Life is happening to every single one of us. And my conversation with Nicole Avant, and I read her book before having this conversation, there was something that she said about her life and her story, and we're going to get into it. But she said something that really stood out to me that people would come up to her, and they would say, I can't believe this happened to you. She had this tragedy in which her mother was murdered in her, in her family's home. And people would come up to her, and they'd say, I can't believe this happened to. And she kind of said, well, who should it happen?

to because the reality is that life is happening to all of us, even those who look like they have it all together on the outside. Nicole Avant shared her story with such generosity, such purity, such strength that it made me sit up straight. When I left that conversation, I felt stronger as a woman who is going to have to navigate tough times and have to navigate things that maybe I see coming, things that maybe I don't see coming, and I'm going have to find a way to survive anyway. That's what I took away from this conversation, is that sometimes life forces you to find a way to survive anyway. Nicole Avant is a producer, author, an advocate whose life has been shaped by legacy, culture, and purpose. She is the daughter of

music legend, Clarence Avant and Jacqueline Avant, two individuals who left an undeniable mark on history, community, and culture. This conversation is so powerful for me as I come to a season in my life where I am seeing my parents, they talk about feeling like they have more years behind them than they have ahead of them. And when I look at women who have survived the loss of their parents, it makes me wonder what kind of woman I will be. There are so many people who tell me that you feel like an orphan when you lose your parents, you're just never the same. And seeing her staying up to the tragic loss of her mother and then the more progressive loss of her father reminded me that womanhood and the tragedies of life may be something that go hand in hand,

but there is strength available to us no matter what. As we go into Mother's Day, you may be navigating some of the emotions that come up with not having your mother here, or perhaps not having the type of relationship you wanted to have with your mother, or maybe you're like me, and you're so grateful for the woman that you do have in your life who is a mother or has been a mother to you. No matter what, I believe that this conversation about womanhood, about motherhood, and about surviving it all is going to bless you tremendously. So let's get into it. Okay, so I feel like I should call you Miss Nicole. It just hit me. Like, Miss Nicole, because after reading your book and just experiencing you for the short time that I've been

around you, there is this dignity, this settledness, this confidence that inspires me as a woman and that I'm intrigued by. Our theme this year is going rogue. And I think when people first hear, they're just kind of like, now, wait a minute. But there's something to be said about the moments when we go through things in life that people would expect a certain response from us. And we end up doing something that is completely different, but most align with our truth and most align with who we know God to be and who God is calling us to be in any given moment. And I feel like you embody this. After all that you've gone through, there is perhaps an expectation of what you should look like and that you should be responding. But you have done in many ways something

that is just unique and authentic to who you are. Do you sense that like you're showing up in ways that are unexpected in contrast to what you've gone through? You know, I think on the surface I would probably have said yes, if you asked me that a couple years ago. But now I look back at, you know, what had happened and what I've been through. And I think, no, I wanted to be the most truthful, authentic person I could possibly be. So I didn't want to waver from my truth. And sometimes my truth was, you know, various emotions at the same time.

It was anger. it was resentment, it was why and why, you know, all this. And then it was, okay, I know who I am. I do believe in God. I love the Lord. I trust the Holy Spirit. I trust everything. And I want to be aligned and rooted and grounded in that truth.

And however that's going to get me there, that's where I'm going to stay. So I think a lot of people kept saying, you should be this way and you should be responding this way. and just deciding on who I was going to show up as in the world versus accepting who I was showing up as in the world. And as long as it was truthful to me, and as long as I felt completely integrated and aligned, I was good with myself.

Yeah. Can I ask you, how do you like to share the story of what has happened in your life? And I think a lot of times, I want to make sure that people who maybe haven't heard hear it from you. But I think a lot of times people kind of narrow in on one moment. But when we read the book, we see that it was more than just one moment. There was a landscape of things that were happening. So how do you choose to share your story?

Well, it's a lot. I mean, I think the reason for writing the book is, yes, my mother had a tragic death, but she had an incredible, extraordinary life. that she created and she was very purposeful. And so my intention was to start there, which is let me give a landscape and a tapestry of the Avant life and not paint necessarily a pretty picture, but a truthful picture. And I wanted people to learn. And so a lot of people were emailing saying,

oh my gosh, this is part black history that I didn't even know. This is, you know, this is part, you know, about the record business. This is black people living in Beverly Hills. I mean, there were so many different layers to the book, but I had to introduce my family. I couldn't just write a book about grief and then not explain who we were or where we came from or where I received my beliefs from. And so for me, it's a life well-lived, and it's a book, you know, dedicated to my mother and honoring her commitment. to creating a beautiful, meaningful, and significant life. And having a beautiful, significant, meaningful life

doesn't mean that you don't have ups and downs. There's not one person on this planet. If you're human, you were going to go up and down and sideways and backwards and this. And that's just, it's part of the reality of being on Earth. But what she did give me was my faith. And, you know, as I write about it, it was, it's my superpower. And it's something that I lean on.

It's something that I depend on every day. And she taught me, you know, be appreciative for everything. Appreciate everything that you have. Appreciate the fact that you're alive. Appreciate the fact that you're free. Appreciate the fact that you can do things that many people around the world, you know, don't have the freedom to do. And so, but I wanted to give people hope. I wanted this book.

I think you'll be happy was about. living and really being alive and not taking your life for granted. And that's what I wanted to deliver when I wrote the book. And delivered you did. There's a part. So I read this book last year. And we talked a little bit about how I thought we'd already had a conversation about this book, but I'm just tired. But there's a part in this book that I think that is the moment where I was like,

this is the kind of woman that I want to be. I want to read it to you. Okay. Okay. So you receive a phone call that is devastating and probably there's some uncertainty there. And I don't, okay, if you would have, if someone had told you one day you're going to receive this phone call, you probably would have thought to yourself, maybe I would think to myself, oh my gosh, I'm going to fall out on the floor. I don't know what I'm going to do like that. I'm going to freak out. But what you wrote, it gave me chills. You said, maybe I became my mother or maybe I became more deeply. myself, I am not sure. But what I do know is that my mother needed a woman like her right then.

I know. I and I think it was it was all of that. I did feel there was a part of me that did become her. Yeah. And I understood her

completely in this moment because she was such a disciplinarian. You know, she was fun and fun loving and all that, but she was a disciplinarian. Period. Didn't play. Oh, she didn't play. did not play. And she always respect authority, respect this, respect, but she always had it

together. And even when things were falling apart, everyone would call on Jacqueline Avon. When things fell apart, if you called Jackie, she would figure it out. And so in that moment of receiving this phone call and getting to the hospital and I'm like, what do you mean my mother's been shot? What are you talking about? I just spoke to her a couple of hours ago. What are you talking about. But I knew she needed a woman to show up the way she showed up for every other person. I thought about it over and over again of, I don't have time to fall apart. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that to her. The least I can do, the least I could do is put my feelings, my stuff aside, and give her exactly what she needs. Because Sarah, I didn't get to,

remember, she died in the hospital. So I didn't get, I always thought when I was growing up, when my parents get older, I'm going to be able to be with them when they take their last breath and I'm going to be able to watch their eyes closed. You have these, you know, fantasies and you hope they come true, but they always don't. And so I wasn't with her in the room when she took her last breath and I wasn't in the room with her when she closed her eyes. And so I thought, well, the least I'm going to do, darn it, is give her the dignity and the strength and get everything in order for her to honor her soul. That was my main goal.

I am going to honor her soul in a way that she deserves. She earned this. She has earned this. And I was going to give it to her. It haunts me that you have said that. My mother had a knee replacement surgery. My father had a heart attack.

And in those moments, there was no falling apart. It haunts me, like, this is the moment where they get to have someone who covers them. Yes. because they've covered everybody. And I think for the people that show up the most for everybody else, they are the ones that deserve somebody to come in for them

and somebody to be their superhero and someone to come in and say, I got you. I've got you. And that's what I was doing to my mom. I said, Ma, I've got you. I've got this. And I just trust me. I'm going to take care of this and everything,

just her memorial service, every single thing going back to which flowers she loved, her favorite colors, everything, her music, everything I wanted to pay honor to her. Yes. Do you, okay, there's recent news headlines about Savannah Guthrie's mom. How do you process moments like that where you're, does it feel like having to relive something?

A little bit. I mean, that's, it's interesting you brought that up because I just said to my friend the other day, God bless Savannah and God bless her family. And it's interesting when people say death is death and it's all the same. And I said to my girlfriend the other day who's going through this with her parent,

I go, it's not the same because my dad died two years after my mom and it was very different. And I was very fortunate. And I did pray to God because after my mom died so tragically, I thought, oh God, you've got to, like when Clarence Avant crosses, this needs to be as peaceful. Take it easy on me. Please.

Please. Please. Please. And everything that I wanted with my mom and we got it in spades. But the difference with my mom and this is why I think that, you know, so many deaths are different. Suicide is very different from somebody passing away from a heart attack. And someone, you know, somebody missed what Savannah and her family are going through right now, that's a level that I can't even comprehend.

Yeah. I don't even, you know, and I pray for her every day. And I pray, and I love that she has faith. And she believes in God. And I do pray because I believe in prayer, obviously. And I believe that people feel your prayers. Yeah. And that's a different, that's something that I wouldn't wish upon anybody

because there was an unknowingness. Yeah. And my mom's was so tragic, yes, but I was able to, I was able to see her. I was able to give her her her final wishes and give her a memorial. Do you know what I mean? And even though it was sudden, it was done.

Yeah, yeah. You know? I think of, I've thought about Nancy Guthrie every single day since it's come out just because I can't imagine the uncertainty and the tragedy and having to process. And the agony, like Samantha said today, the agony, you know, they're agonizing

and that's something that, not, you know, that's only something that God can heal and, and, and, you know, you want answers. We all want answers. And I think that, you know, it's a reminder of sometimes it has to go in that, in that file, the I don't know file. I don't know. I don't know. You have to put a file in your brain that just says, I don't know. I don't understand and I don't know.

I think a lot of the anxiety is because we all want to know everything. And we just can't. And we can't handle knowing everything. No. It doesn't change the fact that I want to know anything. So like, someone's going to play this back for me when I want to answer it. But it's like, I don't even think that we could handle knowing everything. If someone had told me what was going to happen, you know, they all said then, you know, before you come down, if God is, you know, imagine you're sitting in a room with God, he says, okay, this is going to happen, this is going to do this and this and this. And you're going to get all these great things. But in the middle of the middle of of all of it. Yeah. It's going to be like this and then this is going to happen. This is going to

all of us would say, I don't even want to go. Why would you release me? I don't want to live on the earth if I have to go through that. But then you realize if you look at it that way, which my mom was great, she always lived from an eternal mindset of, you know, I would always overthink everything as a child, process everything over and over and over again. And my mom would say, Nicole, you're making a decision based, you know, thinking that you're going to live for 300 years. What are you doing? Just make the decision in this moment right now. What's going to work for you in the next five years, 10 years, whatever?

But if you're making something that's forever, what are you doing? You're not even, don't waste so much of your time. And as we were talking earlier, she was so great about teaching me to use my imagination. She always say, if God gives, God gave humans. an imagination. There's no other animal that has the power of imagination to use your mind to create pictures and to tell stories and what have you. So she'd always remind me, if you're going to use your imagination, believe in the best thing possible, believe in the best outcome possible. And when God says, yes, I will work all things out for good, it doesn't mean that everything's

going to be easy when you get there. But that tragedy, you can, something good will come out of that. You won't see it in the moment. But when I received letters and emails and DMs from people who have purchased this book, who have said, I have looked at life differently, I have forgiven my mother, I have worked things out with my father. I've chosen to live and I've chosen to come back to God, whatever it is, I always think to myself right. This is working things out. This is a part of working things out for good. Yes. You know, so if I'm going to be a part of that, I'm grateful for that.

Yeah, that God can use. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I just surrendered one day. I said, okay, I'm a conduit. Just whatever you want. Whatever you want to come through me, if it's going to help people. My mom would always say, you know, also, if you can make someone's life, if you know when you leave this earth, that you made even just one or few people's lives easier, better, made people feel.

valuable and taking care of and loved, you've succeeded. Yeah. That's really it. It is family and it's friends and it's faith. And that's about it. And you do your best, you know. How did losing your mom prepare you or did it prepare you for saying goodbye to your father? I think the greatest gift that I received from that experience was.

was, you know, in a moment, when tragedy strikes like that, you don't look at life the same and you don't operate the same in life. Because you really, because then the theory and the scripture of it could all change in one second, you really live that. And you know that. And I thought I'm going to really relish and cherish every single second that I have with my father. and I want to laugh with him as much as possible and I want to do things with him I want to continue on the same rhythm with him but I took the time with him very seriously

because I knew just chronologically look he was 92 and a half when he passed so I'm very lucky to have had him for that long I'm lucky to have had my mother for 53 years but it was different and you realize you really don't know in life

You think you do, and you could be people, you know, as we said earlier, it reigns on the just and the unjust. And so that was a good reminder of, oh, right, you know, this can happen, anything can happen at any time. And you're not always prepared for it. It's a blessing when you are prepared for it. And I was prepared for my father's death. He did have a stroke 15 days before he died. And that did, it was a blessing because my mom, again, would always say a train is coming for everybody. A train is coming to take you home.

That's a spiritual train, but it is coming to take you home. There is not one person on this earth that does not have to get on that train. So when my dad was ready to leave, of course they told me, he was so powerful. They said, okay, you could take him home. He'll probably, you know, be gone in about 48 hours to just prepare for that. Girl, like 13, 14 days later. I was looking at him like, yeah, you let go now. We're good.

I haven't slept in 13 nights. I come on. But it was great because he was in his room. He was around his things. He had his photographs of his family and his friends, but it was his music. And it was Bill Withers and Frank Sinatra and Quincy Jones and Count Basie and Duke Ellington, everything that he had that was just in his DNA that he passed on to me in the

love of music. And I went over his whole life with him. And I said, you know what? You did it. Yeah. You did it. Good for you. I said, you ran your race. You ran your race the best that you could. You helped so many people along the way. And you helped so many people get to where they needed to go and where they wanted to be, where God wanted them to be. I mean, he really knew his assignment. He knew what his assignment was. I'm going to move my people forward. I have been given this golden ticket. I don't know why. God put me in this position, but here I go. And I said, you've literally changed lives for generations.

And I think that's a big thing. And it was great for me to be able to say that to him. And I was able to nurture him because he never wanted to be nurtured. Ever. I was going to ask you, like, because, you know, you've met my father. Yeah. You know, and he's, you know, he's 68. So he's still, you know, a grown man and don't need no help.

But, you know, steps a little bit, you know, shorter, you know, maybe not climbing over pews the way that he did when I was growing up. And so, and, you know, had a heart attack. And so we're trying to find this fine line between, like, yes, you are Mufasa. Yes. You are very strong and could lift the car. We're not taking that from you. But also, did you take your medicine and stop eating that? What do we do?

Oh, yeah. Teach me. Teach me. I was insane. I looked at my father. I would say, I said, Daddy, you know, you shouldn't eat that much ice cream. He looked at me and goes, how old are you?

I'm a garage. He said, I have been here over 90 years. I can eat as much ice cream as I want. I have earned this. I would like my wine. I would like, Chinese food, ice cream and wine. All this.

Really? Are we doing that? All at the same time. Yes. And he looked at me, yes, we are. Because I'm good and I'm 92. So he was, but when he was not in the. the state to be like that. It was great

because I leaned in and I said, so today I'm giving you a pedicure. And we would tease him. I'm like, you're not going to heaven. You want to clean your toes up. My friend Amy was an angel. She showed up. She knew exactly what to do. I said, my father's had a stroke. He's

alert and everything, but he's not moving the same. Obviously, he's not speaking because it affected his vocal cords. So she came over. She goes, oh, the same thing happened to my grandfather. And she took care of my father. in a way that she's like okay clarence let's go let's do this i'm going to turn you over and she'd stretch him out and she'd read him stories and talk to him and listen to music and then one day

she said we're going to get you ready to go see jacky in heaven and we gave him facials like everything and i'm looking at him going see you can't do anything right you just got to take it you just got to take this and i know i said if this is what it takes for me to get you like this but i was happy that i was able to would be doting on him. Yeah. I love that you mentioned your friend, Amy, helping, because your mom had a friend Sandy. I think the name is. Can you talk to me about just like the beauty of seeing your mother have good quality

friendships and like how that shaped the way that you engage with other women and created your own friendships? My mom loved her friends so much. I cannot even tell you. That's the, it's incredible. And the hardest part for me actually was when she died, the amount of friends around the world that were just gutted and devastated because their really good friend Jacqueline had been murdered. It wasn't, it wasn't, oh, it was so, these were real friends. They weren't acquaintances.

She created real meaningful friendships. And I love that because it was, and I still have, I have my best friends. from three years old, five years old. That's crazy. And Adrian and Elaine, there's pictures of them in the book. They met my mom when my mom dropped me off at nursery school. Wow. So it was Cece, Ross, and myself were dropped off by our mothers.

And my mom was standing on the side. And Adrian and Elaine are on this side and they said to each other, well, she looks kind of lonely. You know, we're going to go have coffee and then come back. Should we invite her? And they celebrated every birthday. from that moment. So 31, yeah, from 31 years old up until 81. Wow.

Every single birthday. Just based on two women saying, well, she kind of looks lonely. And my mom had just moved to L.A. She didn't have any friends. And, you know, maybe we should take her, maybe we should invite her to lunch with us. And all of her friendships were that way. And I have my 40-year high school reunion coming up this year, my Lord. and I'm still friends.

I talk to all my friends. I'm thinking, it's even before high school that we've been friends. We've been friends since the first grade. We've been friends since nursery school. So friendship to me is everything because it is your family, and it's the family you do get to choose. And I think they're very important to tell your friends. It's so important what my mom taught me was telling your friends

how much you love them as often as you can. And they were support, for each other, and I love that. How do you maintain friendships through all of those years? Like, you know, someone gets married, someone's not married, we have kids, we don't have kids, like how do you keep the friendship time?

They change, you know, sometimes I used to talk to, sometimes, you know, the amount of time might change, but I just said to my friend the other day, but the love has never changed. When my mom died, I had friends who I had not seen in 25 years show up at my doorstep and telling me beautiful,

stories about my mom, how she made them feel when we were all in school together, how she was everyone's mom. But I hadn't talked to them in over 20 years, but they showed up and the love is still there. So things change and transform, but real love and real respect never really goes away. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that struck me in your book, and I think because of the nature of the tragedy, people are just like, oh my goodness, like of all people. why you? Why would this happen to you? And your response was why not my family? Like, can you talk a little bit to people who maybe think like, oh, well, if I had this or if I had that, then I wouldn't experience this because a lot of people feel like if I grew up in this family, if I would have had both

parents or if they would have been present or we would have had more resources, then I would not have had these traumas or these experiences. And yet, I feel like your life represents much like that scripture that rain falls on the just and the unjust. that tragedy finds a way to get all of us, no matter what happens. Can you talk a little bit about that response? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I was fortunate that my parents were very community-based. And so they would, you know, yes, we grew up in Beverly Hills, but they would, my mom was in South Central, you know, three times a week. She loved to volunteer.

She, you know, created children's centers for people. There's a children's center named after her now. She grew up with the belief of, you know, when you're blessed with the law, your job is not to hoard the blessings. You share the blessings, and whichever way the Lord leads you to share them, but share your blessings. And for her, it was not just her money, but it was her time. And I think, you know, because I've seen so much where my mom didn't shun us from things. So I used to go to children's hospitals and when my mom would volunteer and there were kids dying of cancer. at three months, three days, three years, 13 years old.

And parents of all walks of life who did everything right. And we don't know why. You know, people can, I did everything right. Why is this happening? Why is this happening? Where the man with the yacht, the family was a yacht, oh, they must not be going through everything. You know, must be nice.

You don't know what's going on with them. You have no idea what's going on with them. People have and suffer from tragedy, no matter what. It's what you do with it is what makes the difference. My dad, for example, was kicked out of his house at 14 years old. His stepfather was very cruel, mean-spirited, and very abusive, physically, emotionally, and spiritually abusive. And there were eight children and my father was the eldest of eight. Now, imagine being in North Carolina and you're kicked out of your home at 14. Thank God, you know, and he just took odd jobs. He got to,

he got to the East Coast by the time he was 16, 17, lived with an aunt, again, took odd jobs wherever he could. Sometimes, you know, he couldn't get back to her house in Jersey, and he would, he said, you know, sometimes if I was sleeping on a park bench or, thank God, the YMCA actually did what it was supposed to when it was a real Christian, and they took him in. He said, but I couldn't go to a motel. I couldn't go to a hotel. I wasn't allowed to stay in a hotel. Most of them are a motel or anywhere. And these things, you know, he took that and he thought, you know what, well, that was terrible. But he decided in that, he said, I always asked him, well, how did you get over that?

He goes, you just accepted. I wish my real father, you know, didn't go have another family and paid attention to me. I wish my stepfather would have taken care of me and taken care of my mother and my brothers and sisters and sent me to school. I wish that he would have believed in me, but he didn't. But I believe in myself, and I'm going to be the hero of my journey, and I'm going to be the one, I'm going to win this journey. And I don't know how long my life is going to be, but he always said, he goes, I wanted to die a winner. And if that meant, if that meant, you know, I'm on this train. And, you know, he was everything.

Like he was a bouncer, he was this, but he was always ready. And he served all the time. And so he would serve on the train. And he said, one day, a group of kids, you know, just being mean and bullying, and they asked him for tea and coffee. And he brought this whole tray. He goes, I was walking perfectly. And I loved this job because it gave me a place to stay. He goes, and then someone on purpose pushed their foot out, called him every name, you know, N word, this, that, idiot.

And my father tripped, all the hot tea and coffee just went everywhere. And he said, I said, were you? He said, I was fired, but thrown off the train at the next. stop. He said, I didn't even know where I was. And so all of that inside of him, he said, I had to make the choice because you have to choose how you respond. We all know, it's really not what happens to you, but it is what do you do with it? And he said, I chose, I didn't want to be like my father, I mean, my stepfather, I didn't even want to be like my father. I didn't want to be like of those people, I wanted to be me.

And I chose, I wanted to be triumphant. It doesn't matter what the job was. He just wanted to be, he wanted to run his race. And I think, you know, he gave me that word. That's why, you know, I stopped writing this book. I was writing a leadership book first.

And then I stopped and I put the pen down. And my father said, what's going on with your book? I go, I'm not going to write a book. Mom was just murdered. I'm going to write, like, how to be the book. your best version of yourself? What are you talking about? And he said, you're really going to let that man. You're going to let this person take your life too? You're going to let him take your life force too? You've got one life and this is not a joke. And this is not a joke, Nicole. This is going to be over

before you know it. Do not waste your time. Like, well, I don't even know how to, what am I supposed to do? He said, write about Jackie. Take your thing. And he just completely came up with this book. He said, You write about your mother. You write the lessons you've learned and tell the truth. Because he always said, he goes, because you and your mother sometimes can get little prickly with each other. Put that in the book too. You know, maybe it'll heal somebody. Maybe it'll, and it was such a, it was such a great moment of, okay, I guess so.

And it's that generation of it goes, you think it was easy for any of us? He said, Nicole, all of us, whether you were white or black, whatever. If you were poor, you were poor. I was picking cotton at five. I was picking tobacco at seven. And he goes, and I was the fastest, I was the best. He was very proud of his record. And he said, but it was in 100 degree heat.

He said, there were no child labor laws, especially not for any poor person. He said, so people didn't have to pay us. People didn't have to do anything because everybody had an outhouse. If you had that, he goes, there was no heat. There was no. So you have all these comforts. And yes, something bad happened to you. But don't waste it.

don't waste this. You can learn from this. You can grow from this. And most importantly, maybe you're going to help other people. And I thought, okay, well, then you're really going to help me with this. And he did. But he gave me the strength every day. He goes, I'm not telling you to be in denial.

And I'm not telling you not to grieve. But as your mother always said, Nicole, you know, death is a part of the circle of life. It's not outside the circle of life. It is inside the circle of life. So we have to remember people are in car accidents, people have heart attacks, people have stroke. There's a lot of people today, Sarah, who are going to drive home tonight, and they're not going to get home. And it's just reality. They are not going to go home tonight, not based on them doing anything wrong, not based on anything, not being good or anything.

It's their time. It's whatever it is. But it's going to happen. And so I think the ideas we all want to think when any of us close our eyes and when any of us take our last breath, it's going to be in the most peaceful, perfect way. And as life has shown us, that is not true. It's just not true. And we have to go to what's always true, which is a big lesson for me because I was factual, factual, factual, this is a fact, this is a fact. God will always say, what's the truth about the situation?

Don't give me the facts. What's the truth about the situation? And that is why the truth sets you free. Because once you really just say what the truth is, you could actually move and grow and change and correct your course. You know, I was in a relationship with somebody in my early 20s. I thought about this morning. I'm going to bring this up because somebody needs to hear it because, you know,

words are very important. And we all talk about the power of words, which is true. And whatever you say over and over again, I get it creates your life. But another thing is, but words actually can save you and they can direct you and they help you because they're describing something. They're describing either the place or the person or what have you. And I had never been in a relationship with someone who was fraudulent.

There's one thing where, and it caused me a lot because I was, oh, but he's so nice and, you know, he's moody sometimes, but he's so nice. So the, but at the end of the day, thank God I was able to get out of that relationship because I realized after seeing this movie and education, it was so great. She was in love with this con man who had a completely separate life. But I think what people forget is if you don't know the truth about situations, that's where you end up getting stuck. And being with a fraudulent person or a con person or somebody who just is not what they show, you know, is not who they show the world. to be, it'll kill your soul. It'll almost destroy you. And I think a lot of women especially, but a lot of people, men too, but women get so stuck in, you know, this feeling of there's not

going to be another one, there's not another good man, there's not this, there's eight billion people in the world. Okay. Eight billion. Okay. We're fine. Yeah. You know, it'll be okay. Don't, but I think, you know, the idea of, I will, the reason I bring that up, I will never get those years back, ever. And I fought a lot with myself. And that's when I was introduced to your dad through TBN. And I was watching Joyce Meyer and I was watching, and then your dad would come on and all these people would come on. And all of a sudden, I started to receive the word in a different way and in a new way, in a fresh way, very different from when, you know, when I would watch Billy Graham with my grandmother.

But it was still the truth. Yeah. And we have to remind each other of the truth, whether you want to see it or not. But I'm telling you, as soon as God kept putting it on my heart of, no, it's, he's a, it's fraudulent. Yeah. It's not, no. But you're making yourself crazy because you don't want to believe what I'm showing you. What's right in front of your face?

You want to, I used to have this terrible habit of every time God would give me a red flag, I'd always want to paint it white. Period. Okay. Please, yeah. I mean, just take the red flag. Yeah. That's why they're called red flags. Stop.

Take a look. Take a beat. Take a minute. Just trust that because the logic and intuition do not run on the same energy fields. And so intuition just knows, but we always want the backup of the knowledge. And the knowledge and the intuition don't always like it. We're lucky if it does. Yeah.

But when your gut tells you something, it's something, it's your compass. It's your inner compass that God puts in you. and it's there to protect you. It's not there to judge people, but it's there to protect you. And it helps you with discernment. You know, when you're talking about both of your parents, there's just like this undeniable resiliency that both of them seem to have embodied, that you now embody.

And, you know, a lot of people worry that, like, as families may be moved from, like, one income to another income, like, how do we teach our children resiliency? You know, we feel like the resiliency was a part of us having to like climb the ladder and pull up by our bootstraps. But I feel like you're kind of evidence that the resiliency is something that is passed on not necessarily because of the struggle, but because those lessons from the struggles are passed on to our children. Correct. And my mom, my parents were very big on honoring our ancestors, honoring everybody who came before you, who was very young. uncomfortable. Yeah. And, and, and, and really went through hardships. And they didn't, they, they survived. My dad would always say, well, you're here. So that means everybody had to, you go back so many lines. You go back to, it's not just your grandmother. It's her mother and her mother and her mother and her mother. And, and from the

beginning. And he goes, so you, you know, my parents basically said, the one thing you owe us is a life. Yeah. You owe us a life, number one. And number two, I'll never forget, my dad said, I was I would get really good grades in college, then I would, and then I would. And he looked at me one day, so let me tell you something. I'm going to support you in whatever you want to do because I can, but there's one thing I'm not going to support you

doing. And I said, well, what job is that? He said, wasting your life. I will not support you. He goes, and you will be on your own. I will not. He goes, because I didn't go through my hell for you just to coast. That's not happening. Because you wouldn't have your life

if I wasn't here. So you don't get to do that. That is paying honor to me is do something with your life. I don't care if you want to be a police officer, whatever. I don't care. A teacher, hair, dress, makeup, sideless, whatever you want. Do whatever you're called to do, but you will not

be lazy and you will not waste your life. He said, and he really meant it. He goes, I will have nothing to do with it. You're on your own. I thought, okay. I guess I better. Got it. Yeah, yeah. I figured I can say, well, I am in college. I am doing this. He goes, I know, it doesn't matter. When you get out,

you need to work and he was like you know Nicole really you everybody I mean my my friend said the same thing her grandmother came out of the Holocaust and she was like you owe me a life I was 30 pounds when I got out they had me captivated I watched my whole family burn you owe me a life do something with your life do something with the freedom that people fought for you to have and died for you people you'll never know white people black people brown people everybody in between men and women if they fought for you and were uncomfortable for you on your behalf. I mean, they literally planted seeds that they knew they would never see the harvest,

but that you would see the harvest. The least you could do for them is, you know, like I always try to, I always say, like I really do want to live my thank you. That's how I get through life. I want to live my thank you. And I think that keeps you from, it gives you the resilience,

but it also, you need to be humble. humble. You know what I mean? Like, everything is a blessing. So my parents would look at me like, yes, we live in Beverly Hills. So what? We have a nice house. So we're still human, but it's not like this just came to us. Yeah. You know, we, everybody went through a lot. I mean, and my mom worked since my mom had me work. And I think that's a big difference. I mean, it didn't matter. Yes, I would go home to my nice house and I would go home to my comfortable bedroom. But I was working at 10 and 12 and 13. She'd signed the little slips because you weren't allowed to really work until 16, but she said, you need to go and work, and especially in a restaurant, I sold shoes, I worked at the

post office, I mean, I had every job possible. And she said, you need to understand the value of a dollar. You need to understand work ethic. I need you to see other people where you get to come home and be comfortable. That person getting the same check that you're getting, that is everything to them. And if they miss that, their phone is cut off. If they miss the next one, their electricity is cut off. And my dad, because he had lived that, was very sensitive that we would never take it for granted.

No, I love that. I got a 16 year and a 10 year old. Let me tell you, I'm signing a work permit when I get back to that. Yes. Yeah. Because, no, you need to be exposed to different types of living. And it makes you a better person. I mean, when somebody asked me, oh, my gosh,

you became the U.S. ambassador. I can't believe that. How was it working for Obama? And how did you know what to do? when you landed in the Bahamas, I said, you know what, between my parents and growing up with them and watching my mother, of course, definitely gave me a guidebook.

But the best teacher for me was working in restaurants. And working in restaurants and selling shoes because my mom would always say when you're serving people, you will see the best of humanity and you will see the worst of humanity, but you still have to serve them.

And you're going to have to figure out how to navigate personalities. You're going to have to figure out. You can't always focus on why is this person this way. Who cares? You don't know their background. But how are you going to show up in these situations, which it then helped me become diplomatic. It helped me. I wanted everything to work out for everybody. I want everybody's order to be right. People who were yelling at me. People would call me stupid. How could you get this order wrong? How could you do this? And yes, it pissed me off and it hurt my feelings. And then it. it gives you a little like, you know what? Okay, they're in a bad mood. Not my problem. And it taught

me not to take things so personally. It taught me to really accept people as they are, but you have to be put in positions that, you know, the saying, you don't let anyone dim your light. Well, the only way you're really going to learn how to not let anyone dim your light is to be put in positions where people are trying to dim your light all the time because then it becomes a muscle of, oh, that's what they're trying to do. though. That's what they're trying to do. You have to be put in uncomfortable positions to then become a powerful, strong person. You have to be uncomfortable and unfair things are going to happen. Then you're going to have to pull it out of yourself of how are you going to do this. I remember I had a job working for a brilliant producer, brilliant TV producer. I didn't even want to be in TV at the

time, but it ended up working out. And she was horrible to me, but brilliant. And I wanted to quit. I was like, Dad, she is so mean and she doesn't pay attention to me and she just has me doing all, you know, at the printer and printing all the scripts and doing all this. He said, are you learning anything from her? I said, well, yeah, I mean, she's really great

at what she does. He goes, okay, well, there you are. And I go, but she's not valuing me and she doesn't respect me and all that stuff. And it's all coming up. That language is coming up now. Yes, for sure. And it's very dangerous. Yeah. Because if you know you're a valuable person of value, period, then however other people treat you,

they have the right to treat you, what are you going to do? But my dad did not want me to miss the lesson and to miss the gifts that she was going to give me. And then cut to 30 years later, I'm working with Tyler Perry on the 6th-3-8, and all of a sudden I'm thinking, oh, wait a minute,

I know how to read this thing, I know how to make these notes. Because 30 years before, I was with this terrible monster, but I learned so much. And it was such a great lesson of, A, this is not tragic. It's not going to kill me. This is not going to kill you. Yeah, uncomfortableness.

It's uncomfortable. But you grow through it. I've never, ever, ever grown on the mountaintop. Yeah. Ever. I've always grown, and all of us do, in difficult valley moments. where you're just, God, really? What is this? Why would this possibly happen to me?

What lesson could you possibly think I'm going to learn from this? And then you look back years later, like, right. I see what you did there? Yeah, I see it. I get it. I get the movements. I get everything. You never understand it while you're going through it. But you could always look back and say, oh, right, I got that now. Thank you very much. And you can't, and you have to be tested on if you're going to, if you want the big shiny object, are you going to be able to handle all the responsibility when you get the big shiny object?

So I'm going to have to test you on your way up. I mean, my mom would always say, again, your responsibility is your ability to respond to life. Yes. Your ability to respond to whatever life throws at you, you have to be, you have to figure out what you're able to do

and what you're not able to do. It doesn't change your value. So I said to somebody the other day, she said, I don't get this value thing. I don't, I, you know, she, it was a whole conversation. All I have to say is I said, you know, I know I'm valuable and I know I'm worthy and I know I'm a good person. That does, God forbid you had a brain tumor and you put me in the hospital to give you, you know, to perform surgery on your brain tumor. I go, I promise you you would be dead. I promise.

Not because I am not qualified. And it's not my thing. and I am of no value to you in that position. Doesn't mean I'm not a valuable person, but I am of no value to you in that moment because I'm not trained, I'm not qualified, I don't even understand what you're talking about. And she went, I go, it doesn't take anything away from you.

So again, it goes back to, I think my parents drilling that in me, and I did not like it when I was younger. And my mom used to say, it's home training. And one day you're going to be so grateful that I gave you home training. I was like, okay. Okay, Ms. Jackie. And then I ended up doing the same thing with, you know, Ted's kids. As soon as they came in in in my life, and I would drive them crazy.

And it was, oh, my God, my stepmom is out of control. And then Tony, by his second year in college, she called me and he said, wow, home training is the real deal. It's the real deal. And I said, what do you mean, Tony? and he said, no one knows how to do anything. They don't make up their beds.

They can't clean the rooms. They can't clean the bathroom. They have their mothers, bring this. They can't get their food. They can't cook. They were literally, they just couldn't do anything. And I said, see, I was just looking out for you because you got to go out into the world. Let me tell you something.

I am obsessed with you. I'm going to be honest. I'm obsessed. I could listen to you talk literally all day. And I hate that this is coming to you. I know. You have these huge personalities and you, your parents and yet you still have absorbed it, honored it while charting your own path.

How did you do that? I was, again, very lucky to have parents, especially my father on this one who said, people always ask me, you know, how are your kids going to fill your shoes? And he said, they're not supposed to fill my shoes. You know, my dad said say, Nicole, you know why they asked for a fingerprint? because there's not one other person on this planet that can copy your fingerprint. You know why they take your eye, you know, everything in your eye goes, there's nothing. There's not one other person that can replicate you.

So your job is to just be whomever you want to be and be the best version of that. And I think it really helped me of him saying, please don't try to be me. Yeah. There is me. You're never going to be me, by the way. Right, right. Good luck. You know, but it made me, it was so freeing of be, be who you came here to be, be who God called you to be.

And you're going to have to go through lots of things to figure out where you're going to land. But own your individuality. And I, it just completely helped me set my sale on, you know, as long as I had a good heart and I was a decent person. And, you know, of course, even decent kind people. always make mistakes and we always still do things that are wrong. But my parents said, but the quicker you can acknowledge that you miss the mark, even if you're only talking to God about it,

my mom would say, go to God first and say, totally screwed up. Own that. I'm 100% responsible for that. I apologize. And I know that that's your child too. Yeah. And even though I want to have a hard conversation, the how is very important,

just as important as the what, which, you know, my dad taught me because he said I was pretty rough. And he goes, and I wish I could have changed my how, you know? So I think that's how I've been able to navigate my course. My dad recently said something like that to me as well about just being, because he was rough. He was rough. But he was trying to prepare me for a rough world. Yes.

And so he felt like he couldn't be soft. And I think as he is becoming more reflective that he's recognizing there were moments where maybe he could have been a little bit more. And as long as people are reflecting, that's what you do is you get older. You reflect, you acknowledge, you take responsibility. You know, my mom would say, you know, I'm so sorry. I kind of, you know, you know I was really home training, but I think I kind of pinched your heart. And I apologize for that. Pinched your heart.

Yeah. So she'd say, you know, I pinched your heart. And it was our last birthday, because I was born on her birthday. And it was our last birthday lunch. And I love, I thank God for that every day that we had that moment where she said, I said, Mom, don't worry about it. I get it.

She goes, no, no, no. Let me apologize. For me, let me apologize. And she needed that. And then I never had another birthday with her again. So I'm happy that she was able to go and be in peace knowing that she made amends for where she missed the mark. Pinched your heart. I am obsessed with Pinched your heart.

I'm going to say that to my kids. Yeah. Okay. We have to do rapid fire. All right, here we go, okay. What's something ordinary that you find beautiful? Sunsets. Oh, yeah.

That's a good thing. If you could only eat one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be? Pizza. Oh, what kind? I actually just found this. I love any kind, actually, but a good, easy margarita pizza. Love it. Okay.

I don't know. We're going to... Do you spend a lot? lot of time on the internet, like on comments and things like that. No. Okay, hypothetically speaking. People are talking crazy to you. Do you clap back or stay silent?

Swipe left. Period. Doesn't you matter. Okay, and first thing you notice when meeting someone. Oh. Their smile. Oh, that's a good one. Okay, finish this sentence. The world needs more

respect. I think respect is the highest form of love. So I know that people say love, love, love, but I think we need to respect. I think we need to all go back to just being decent and respect each other. I totally agree. Yeah, just respect. You don't have to agree on everything. It doesn't matter, but I see you. I do. I really do try. It's the national ambassador in me. I do respect people and their journeys. But I think it's very important that we don't jump to conclusions based on political affiliation or race or gender or anything. you know, basic common respect.

And you know what I find interesting about that is when we talk about respect, a lot of people are like, yeah, they need to respect us more and they need to do better. But then it's like I actually don't have a lot of respect for some of the positions they take or some of the affiliations they have. And so I find myself not offering the same type of respect that I think that they could contribute to the world. So I've been challenged within myself to not be so busy, you know, judging someone else that I don't see what's in my own eye. Correct. And we all, but the fact that you know that is everything. That's, that's being the mature human being of when you can see it in yourself. Yeah. And, you know, it's, I mean, I see all this busyness and everybody pointing and especially Christians. Yeah. I'm thinking, oh my goodness. We can't tell who is who in the year.

You can't. And that, for me, you know, my grandmother always used to say, you know, she loved quoting, you know, you shall know them by their fruit. Yes. And I live by that. Yeah. And people will, you could put anything you want on your resume. You could say whatever. But the way you treat people and people who don't know you and you're a waitress and your barista and everything, the way you treat people tells me everything I need to know about you.

Yeah. And it reminds me of myself too. Right. You know, if I'm too busy. and we're just talking, talking. I know. I like it. I like it.

I'll have to come back. Please. I'll come back and I'm going to come to Dallas. Please. Because we have to make up for that. Absolutely. I'd love it. Yes.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Was there a point in this conversation when you realize I'm going to have to sit up straight and I'm going to just have to take this life and do the best that I can with the cards that I have been dealt and trust God in the midst of it all?

I am so grateful that we have the Holy Spirit available to us to strengthen and comfort us as we navigate all that comes our way. There is nothing that happens in our life that takes God by surprise. And the devastation that we experience in our lives may not be what God ultimately desired for us, but God says, I can find a way to make it all work together for good if you are willing to trust me. If you're listening to this podcast and you're at a season where you are having to force God, you are forced to trust God.

You are having to trust God in ways you, perhaps. Perhaps would it rather not. I hope that this podcast blessed you. I want to pray with you before we leave. I want to pray that the Holy Spirit would meet you right in this season of transition. Holy Spirit, we welcome your presence. We thank God that through Jesus, we have access to the mind of God. So Spirit of the Living God, I ask that you would rest on every person listening to this podcast.

God, first, let your spirit rest on their mind. where they're feeling perhaps depression, anxiety, worry, or weariness, we invite your spirit to come in, to take control, to soothe us, to highlight thoughts that are limiting us, to highlight beliefs that are keeping us bound, and to introduce fresh belief and fresh hope. And I thank you, God, that as we navigate the uncertainty of life, that you have allowed your spirit to be a comforter to us, a guidance to us, bring back to our remembrance who you are and what your promises are. May they be flooded in this moment with your love. May they be flooded with assurance and may they be flooded with direction on how to navigate their heart and mind in this season. If they need additional support from

a therapist, counselor, friends, God, I pray that you would give them the strength to say, I need help so that help can find them and lead them to better. Thank you for trusting them with us. we continue to be a good steward of the souls that you have placed under our care here at the woman evolve podcast. Thank you, God. In Jesus name, we'll see you next week.