Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Say Yes to the Stretch w/ Jo Saxton

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

If you’ve ever felt like you’re living in the in-between, trying to lead with purpose while questioning your pace, this conversation is for you. Sarah Jakes Roberts sits down with global leader and powerhouse Jo Saxton to unpack what freedom really means when life feels uncertain, leadership gets heavy, and identity feels up for grabs. From childhood wounds to uncharted seasons, from calling to capacity, these two women keep it real about how faith, rest, and community are keys to staying grounded and free. Jo shares her personal story of shedding old beliefs and letting God rewrite her narrative, piece by piece, mirror by mirror. Together, they talk about prophetic leadership, discernment, and how even your “I don’t know” can be holy. It’s not too late, sis. Your freedom is still available. And this episode? Whew. It’ll meet you right where you are.

Being a spirit-led parent is a choice, and it is one that I have to make every single day. Literally, sometimes my children will be talking to me and I have to invite the Holy Spirit to just tag in. I want to give them Jesus and not me. When I'm coaching leaders, I have to say, pray for the wild card. The thing you didn't see coming,

that's the one you need right now. The thing that causes you to depend on him again. So in this moment, when it's uncharted waters, think of rest, think of the cry, and take a moment to hear what the uncharted response needs to be. What's up, what's up, what's up? Okay, let me tell you about the struggle.

I recorded the first part of this podcast, eight minutes straight, and the mic wasn't on at all. So whatever, God must have wanted me to just run this thing again. And so how are you? What's going on in your world? I can tell you right now, I just got back from vacation and we did absolutely nothing. If you are one of those people who go on vacation and you love to have an itinerary and you want to plan breakfast and activities and lunch

and activities and parties and all of the things, let me tell you something, you would hate me on vacation. I don't want to do nothing. I barely want my departure flight to be scheduled. I kind of want it to just be ready when I'm ready to go. I want to do absolutely nothing. And my husband and I have the same vacation mentality. So we did nothing on a grand scale

and it was so restorative, so refreshing. And the moment we touched down back home, I knew for sure that the devil was trying to take everything that we just got on vacation because it feels like we have been slammed ever since, but it is giving me an opportunity to reassess, reprioritize my life because I don't want to live in such a way that I'm vacating, coming back and being overwhelmed

again, but how can I reimagine my life in a way that allows me to have sustainability and productivity and rest? And so that is my chart since we've been back. We got a lot going on. I mean, ministry, business, family-wise. Man, the installation is on July 6th, which is just around the corner, which is when we will be installed as the senior passage of the Partis House Dallas. I have all types of feelings and emotions about that.

And the world is worlding. Do you understand what I'm saying? For God so loved the world, the world that God so loved is out here being the world that he so loved that he needed his only begotten son for. We out here lost in the sauce. Do you understand what I'm saying? And so I be trying to figure out, Lord, who you understand what I'm saying? And so like, I be trying to figure out like, Lord, who you want me to be in,

like how I'm gonna be in the world and of the world, who you want me to be in the world, but not of the world. And so what do you want me to pray in this, in the world, not of the world season? And I wanna tell you that he took me to Romans eight because I feel like a lot of us are out here, like I wanna pray, I don't even know what to pray. Do I pray for this nation? Do I pray for that nation't even know what to pray. Do I pray for this nation?

Do I pray for that nation? Do I pray for this? Do I pray for that? And like, God, what is your perspective on all of these things? Like, where am I? Like, I just trying to figure it out. And God gave me this, like, pray whatever you can pray on your level. Even in these moments where you don't have strength,

you don't have clarity, you don't have clarity, you don't have vision, and you don't know what to pray, I want you to pray what is in your heart to pray. But listen, I also want you to recognize that your prayer has a partner, okay? So part of what we get when we receive Jesus as our Savior is we get a prayer partner. The Holy Spirit becomes our prayer partner.

Oh, I just want you to imagine that everywhere you go, Savior is we get a prayer partner. The Holy Spirit becomes our prayer partner. I just want you to imagine that everywhere you go, you've got a partner who could guide you, who can lead you, who can comfort you, who can coach you, who can teach you with you every step of the way. So in those moments where you don't know what to pray, the Holy Spirit is like, pray something anyway.

I got you, I'ma hook you up. I don't know if you've ever seen someone who's preached a message and they have an interpreter there. I've seen my father do it before. I've never been able to do it, but they're preaching and someone is interpreting what they're saying and they're doing it with just as much passion, just as much zeal. That is what's happening when you pray.

The Holy Spirit is interpreting, making intercession on your behalf because you don't know what to pray and they know you don't know what to pray. Okay, so Romans 8.26 says it like this, the Spirit also helps in our weakness. I looked up that word helps and that word helps means to cooperate. That word helps means to take hold of. Okay, so the Spirit takes hold. The Spirit cooperates in our weakness. So then I got curious and I thought, what does the word weakness mean?

That word weakness means feebleness, but it also comes from another word that is strengthless. So the spirit helps, the spirit cooperates in those moments when we are strengthless. If you have been feeling strengthless, If you have been feeling strengthless, if you have been feeling like you don't know what to pray, there is this beautiful scripture here to help you in those moments where you've got nothing. I'm daring you to pray anyway. Do not give up on praying

just because you don't know what to pray. Do not give up on praying just because you don't have any strength. Your prayer can literally be, Lord, I don't have any strength. And the Spirit will interpret your prayer. The Spirit will make intercession on your behalf. Taking those prayers. Oh, I just hear God saying, all I need you to do is open your mouth to welcome me and

my presence into what you are experiencing right now. Even if you don't know what I can do, even if you don't know what I can say or how I can fix it. I hear God saying that if you would just let me in, the spirit can do the rest. The spirit helps in our weaknesses for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought. But the spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings, which cannot be uttered. Now he who searches the heart knows what the mind of the spirit is,

because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. So the spirit goes, I know you don't know what to pray, but I just want you to pray anyway, because I'm going to interpret your prayers for heaven. You may be praying, Lord, please don't let this person walk out of my life. And the spirit is saying, Lord, help this woman

that recognized the strength that she has to stand on her own two feet and to experience your presence outside of this relationship. You may be praying, God, please help me to overcome this disease. And God may be saying, in the Spirit of the Lord, may be saying, Lord, help her to understand that she's on assignment to give a message to this nurse,

to show her light in a dark space. There's a woman, her name is Amy Dockery, and she talks about overcoming cancer and how she went in there and she realized that she was on assignment. And the only way she would have been in the room is if she was dealing with this disease. And so she used the disease as an opportunity to still spread light and hope. And so as it relates to what's happening in the world, that's something that has been on my heart. I don't always know what to pray, but I know I need to pray.

And so I've been praying, your kingdom come, your will be done, that there would be people in authority who reflect your heart for this cause, that there would be people who are comforted in the midst of their pain and their grief, that there would be wise leaders in comforted in the midst of their pain and their grief, that there would be wise leaders and authority. That has been my prayer and anything that I'm missing, I am praying that the spirit, I know, I'm knowing, not praying, I'm knowing that this spirit will translate it on my behalf.

So yeah, that's the world. That's my world. Now, let's talk about your world. Let me mind your business. Hey, Sarah. I am a E member at the Potter's House. I also follow you on Instagram. I wanted to know, how do you still seek after the Lord while dealing with inner trauma that

keeps showing up while you're on your journey. For example, I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. My mother was on drugs and no, not to my mom. Despite her addiction, she was the bomb.com and I love her dearly. However, her being on drugs and being like one of those parents who didn't show emotions as much, it kind of taught me how to be numb in that area and I have six babies that God blessed me with. My first one is 23 and her and I have been combating really bad these past few weeks. And I keep seeing things about my mom that I didn't like showing up in her and I relationship. Tell me, mind all of my business because I need you to.

How do I continue to seek after the Lord while trying to heal myself and heal possible hurt and trauma that I've caused to my now 23 year old child. I need your help. Thank you so much for having this voicemail and being obedient to God. I so appreciate you. I love you so much. I love the entire Jake's family and also PT. He's the truth.

Y'all have a blessed day and I appreciate you. Thank you. You know, I really feel like this is the perfect segue into the question. Not the question rather, but that little, you know, breakdown I had of the spirit making intercession on our behalf. Because honestly, truly, if you are raising your children without the Holy Spirit, I just don't know how you do it. Because I have no idea what I'm doing. I am depending on the spirit making intercession on my behalf, leading me, guiding me, coaching me, teaching me as I take care of these children because I don't know. Actually, you know what?

I do know how you're doing it because I did it. I actually did it. Let me get off of my high horse. I raised my child. I raised, let me see, how many of them? I got three kids that I have that lived inside of me and then I've got three bonus babies. But the three bonus babies only have known the saved inside of me. And then I've got three bonus babies. And so, but the three bonus babies only have known the saved version of me. My two oldest biological children,

they got a little halftime. You know what I mean? For my two oldest children, I was, it was like a Super Bowl experience. It was like the first two quarters of the game, I was out here figuring things out. And then there was like a halftime show of salvation, restoration, the Lord came into my life.

And then, you know, we in the third and fourth quarter right now. And so they definitely saw the side of me that wasn't evolved, that was just out here doing the best that I could without being led by the spirit. I was being led by what society said would be a good mom. I was being led by my emotions, led by shame, led by ambition, led by potential.

And so they experienced that version in me. Being a spirit led parent is a choice. And it is one that I have to make every single day. I have moments where I am being led by stress, being led by being tired. It is literally sometimes my children will be talking to me and I have to invite the Holy Spirit to just like tag in. Like, I'm going to need you to step up here.

I want to give them Jesus and not me. I want to give them Jesus and not where I currently am, because where I currently am isn't always necessarily for them. Sometimes the Spirit helps me to translate some of my own experiences in a way that can be helpful for them. I say this to you as you are raising your daughter, that you are going to need the Holy Spirit to do it. You're going to need constant help and constant support. And I honestly believe that this is a beautiful opportunity for you to own and admit to your

daughter that you can recognize that there is some opportunity for growth in your relationship, that you want to see it be healed and evolved, but you don't have tools. And you can't penalize yourself for not having the tools. You want to communicate better. You want to handle finances better. You want to forgive with more ease, but you don't have tools. You only know one way of doing things and you need tools to build a new life. It's not enough to just want a new life if you don't have the tools to build the new

life. And so to ask the Holy Spirit to lead me to the tools. Sometimes those tools will come in the form of podcasts. Sometimes those tools will come in the form of books, your local church, other relationships, but you have to one, identify that you need tools. You cannot build this thing on your own. You're going to need the help and support of other people's experiences, other people's wisdom, other people's knowledge, and you are going to need the Holy Spirit. And so to open yourself up to this reality, I think you could benefit from therapy.

Therapy is a tool. Therapy is a tool that allows us to take inventory of what has taken place in our lives, to help us process some of the things that we could only just survive in the moment. In the moment when you were being raised with your mom, all you could do is survive. You're not being raised by her anymore. You survive in the moment. In the moment when you were being raised with your mom, all you could do is survive.

You're not being raised by her anymore. You were doing the raising. But that little girl who didn't get what she needed from her mom fully, who didn't understand her mom wasn't present enough to help her navigate emotions, to navigate the world, and to translate it for her, that little girl, she needs help. She needs tools. And she still exists inside of the woman you are. And so don't be afraid to get the support that you need through those tools.

Your heart to do it though, your heart to want to get it right should be on display for your daughter. Humility, you're going to need a great humility. You cannot raise children without humility because you are going to mess them up. It can be like, well, I did write most of the time, so the times where I messed up, they should be able to get over it. Yes, they're going to have to get over it because everyone has to take ownership of their own lives, but it would be helpful if you could build a ladder for them to get over

it with humility. Do you want to build a ladder of humility that says, hey, I actually did mess you up right there? You're not crazy. actually did mess you up right there. You're not crazy. That did happen. That was inappropriate. I could have done better. I didn't do better.

I want to do better moving forward and I want to be a part of whatever growth looks like for you. They are going to have to get over it, whether you build the ladder or not. But if you are still here and you still have a chance to get it right, why not build a ladder? It's not too late to fix what you, you know what I mean? I'm having to do it myself. Okay, so I'm just saying no judgment.

Build a ladder to help them get over it and have that humility that makes you approachable because at the end of the day, you may see a full grown person coming to you saying, you know what, you messed me up. But it's the little person inside of them that's like, hey, pick me up. Show me what this means. Show me how to navigate this. Am I seeing this properly? So yeah, that's my suggestion to you. The Holy Spirit is going to give you so much wisdom, so much guidance on how to navigate it and humility.

Maybe you need humility. Maybe you need the Spirit to help you be vulnerable enough to show up for your children. Jesus, man, of all the things, we love to talk about the things that he embodied where he was flipping tables and going off on the Pharisees, but can we talk about vulnerability? Can we talk about being naked on that cross? Can we talk about how we have to model that where we are willing to show our wounds, our scars, our mistakes, our flaws to own that? That's the part of Jesus that is getting on the cross for real, crucifying your flesh,

your need to come off as you had it all together, your need to show up in pride and in strength, and instead allowing yourself to come off as a human on a journey who doesn't always get things right, but the moment when you know you didn't get it right, you do what you can to correct it. That's a beautiful offering that you can offer your children no matter how old you are. So that's my prayer for you. That's my prayer for her.

I love you. Thank you for the way that you loved on me and my family. And just for the sake of anonymity, I'm gonna ask that they redact your name and use your name out of this so that we can make sure we're taking as good care of you as you were taking of your daughter. Well, well, well.

Now that we've had an opportunity, mind your business. Man, I want to talk about a conversation that I had with Joe Saxton that I believe is going to tremendously bless you. I don't often get to pick the brain of women who are doing the training for women who are in leadership. And I think coming off the heels of what's happening in this world, and even as trying to lead our families, that anyone who is listening to this podcast means that you are in some way curious or living out what it means to be a woman who has evolved, which means, mama,

you are in leadership. You are leading your life or you are leading others, whether they're family members, community groups, or teams, organizations, and businesses. And so I wanted to have this opportunity to unpack with her what it means to be a woman in leadership. We are doing a Mind Your Business luncheon at the Women Evolve Conference, but I really do feel like this is a lane that I could benefit from exploring more

as a woman in leadership. As a matter of fact, I'm okay next week we are going to get the message from the called conference where I spoke about leadership because I just feel like now more than ever we need people who are in leadership and if you are like me you hear the word leadership it sounds like pressure sounds like responsibility sounds like too much on my plate and yet there is this reality that many of us are in places of leadership. So I think that's going to help you. But I got to pick her brain and I don't even know how to introduce this one fully without just saying, wow.

Okay. Jo Saxon is exactly who she thinks she is. She and I had a conversation that what places I didn't even know we needed to go. We talked about leadership, identity, motherhood, healing, and that lie that tries to tell us we're too late or too far gone. Somehow in between talking about London, Lagos, and life in the States, we ended up talking about the stuff that really sits in your heart. Are you actually free or just out here functioning? And if you've been feeling stretched, second guessing your season or just wondering what freedom

even looks like anymore girl, just go on and hit play. This one is going to bless you. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I'm so looking forward to just leaning from your wisdom and your perspective. You recently gone viral. When was the moment that you realized that this moment with you talking about disappointment was really resonating with so many people? You know it was really strange because I'm a bit slow on social media so I didn't really realize but I think some of my friends from the UK had called me and I kept on people kept on either sliding into the DMs and I was surprised. I was surprised because I was just talking, it was a conversation and it was an honest conversation with someone

about what we all experience really and so to see it resonate so deeply into people's stories and to their journeys was really humbling, really humbling. I think it speaks a lot to the way that people are existing right now. I'm curious because I know that you have such a global perspective even though you now live here in the States. I'm wondering as you look at what's happening in America in the context of what's happening in the larger landscape of the world, what perspective do you have that you think some of us who are maybe not as knowledgeable in our worldview may be missing?

I mean, I think it's inevitable when we are in our own context that you end up getting caught up in your immediate, in your immediate situation, your family, your world. But I think the last five years, particularly with the pandemic hit everybody across the board, but the recovery has been very different around your world. But I think the last five years, particularly with the pandemic, hit everybody across the board. But the recovery has been very different around the world. So in some ways,

I think there are lots of things that we have in common, but I think there are so many things that we've just experienced live differently, how we've lived financially, how we've lived with faith, how we've done relationships, the media we consume. We, it's not all the same thing. And but humans are humans, wherever they are. And so that bit,'s not all the same thing. But humans are humans wherever they are.

And so that bit is the same. I always encourage people living here that if you're going to consume the news, try and pick another country as well and read theirs just to hear. It just broadens the story. I think it's our Nigerian author um Chimamanda who says the danger of a single story is that it's not that it's inaccurate it's incomplete and sometimes when we only focus on one space you just have a single story and and there's more to discover. Okay who did you reference with the single story subject? Oh our favorite author I said ah because I know we're both Nigerian really. So, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.

She did a tech talk on this, yes? Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's a beautiful one. I come back to it again and again, cause it reminds me to just open my eyes and see the world around me and see people around me in a different way.

It's so interesting because I feel like, uh, growing up in America and seeing America centralized in all of the conversations as it relates to like other nations and now having to really compare and contrast with what's happening globally in the world and in different parts of the world, it feels like, um, it feels like both finding out that you're not as special as you thought you were, but also needing to know that you weren't as special as you thought you were. I think there's a necessary connection to humanity that is available to us when we allow ourselves to be decentralized and to really put our issues and problems in perspective to what's

happening in other parts of the world. But I think most importantly, it demands of us this need to really define what freedom looks like for ourselves. America has been this nation that's been built on freedom, but now we're in a space where I think we have to decide what does freedom look like for me and my thoughts and my spirit in the way that I show up in the world. What does it look like to be free from the ups and downs of whatever's happening in the political climate, the ups and downs of what's happening in the economy or even what's happening globally? And so I'm wondering for you, as we see womanhood being changed, as we see leadership being challenged, as we see motherhood

taking on its own definition, what does it mean to you to be free right now? I think that's a really helpful way even showing the big picture there to place it and to start it because I think when I first moved to the States I had my own perception of what freedom would look like. And I've often seen freedom as being economic, which it is in part, but sometimes you have the money and you still don't have the freedom. Or I've seen freedom as relational and then you have the date or you have the partner

and somehow you're still you. You're still you. And you can acquire all these things. I have understood, I've had, it's in the stripping away that I've discovered what's truly made me free. It's in the stripping away of my assumptions. It's in my reconnecting with the love of Jesus,

the power of Jesus, the transformative work of Jesus. That's the freedom that has set me free indeed, that has not been defined by circumstance. It's not that I'm not affected by circumstance. It's not that I'm not affected by circumstance. It's not that I can pretend those circumstances aren't there. It's just that I have discovered that if I'm not free on the inside, I'm not really free on the outside anyway. Okay, can we dig into that a little bit? I feel like one of my calls in this season, as I find myself going deeper in the knowledge and revelation of

who Jesus is, understanding the Holy Spirit and the Father. That's really been my heart's desire right now, is I'm also trying to balance it with this juxtaposition of when all of this was just foreign church talk to me, where my mother says, just because you graduate, don't burn the schoolhouse down. And so I want to take a minute and dig into the connection between how does me learning more about Jesus lead to my own freedom? Like, what is it that I should know about Jesus

that connects to who I am? Yeah, that's really important. For me, when I think of who Jesus is, I think of what He came for. And it's not just about believing in Him, although obviously that's a wonderful thing. But what He, His work on the cross, His life, His death and His resurrection, identified with humanity, identified with our highs and our lows. Yeah, identified with the wonderful things and also the devastating things.

So that's the start of it. But what I've understood in knowing Him and in worshiping Him, and not just that, in entering relationship with Him, is that an exchange takes place. When we talk our kind of old school church talk, we talk about a new covenant and a new relationship. And the covenant was the language of the people of that time. It talked of a partnership. And in the Old Testament times,

the whole idea was a covenant, with a covenant that tribes would make one with another, would be that when you entered a covenant with this stronger party, your debts were now gone. Your old identity was gone. Your enemies were now defeated because you had this new covenant and it would always be marked in blood.

So your old identity is now in the blood. Your old story is now in the blood. Your old name even is in the blood. And when Jesus takes that on and Jesus is the new covenant, we have this new wonderful relationship. So it's not just like, if you know he's there, but because of what he's done, our old identity, that's the things that have named us, shamed us,

guilted us, trapped us, they're in the blood. And the things which have defined us, re-distorted us in some way, he's taken on on the cross. And so when the Bible says by his wounds we're healed, it's because of what he's done. So for me, what that's looked like has taken my story, the broken pieces of my story and said, I can't get past my past.

I can't get past my wounds and not singing about them and pretending they're not there, that's just lying. But actually bringing them to him and saying, I can't forgive, would you help me? I can't, I look in the mirror and I'm not confident in who I am. Would you tell me who I am? Would you rename me? I feel like I've got to look a certain way, be a certain way, perform a certain way to be enough for everybody around me, but you've already said I'm enough. Would you do the work

that helps me be free? And it's in that relationship that I've discovered freedom again and again in each chapter of my life, in each chapter of my life. Okay, so this is, I'm feeling like I was watching your chapel from Bethel just last month in preparation of just having this conversation with you. First of all, when you only had seven minutes left to finish your talk, I was like, well, that's not nearly enough time for all of the things that she just read and covered. So I definitely feel like I'm getting to get the leftovers of what happened in that room. You said something that I think is the key

to those who are listening, truly understanding what does it mean to really, I'm gonna say transfer belief. I think that one of the things that I didn't realize when I was struggling to believe in Jesus, believe in myself, believe that I was loved, is that I wasn't struggling to believe, I was just struggling to believe that, right? So I believe that I wasn't worthy.

I believe that I didn't have any value. I didn't have a belief problem. It was where my belief was placed. And so I think what Jesus offers us in our relationship with him is an opportunity to believe what he believes about us. And then the question is, what does he believe about us beyond that you were worth dying for, but that your past doesn't define you, that you have the ability to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth when you show up. And so I believe that for those of us who are truly beginning to understand what

freedom looks like, there is an unraveling, there is a peeling back of belief systems that no longer serve us belief systems that actually keep us oppressed when we should have freedom. I wonder would you mind sharing? Maybe a belief that you once had that kept you oppressed that you had to shed in order to really experience freedom. Mm-hmm. I I spent my first five years in foster care and so just of where our family was at at the time and I And I had a to be honest a wonderful foster parent. She was a wonderful woman. But as I grew to adulthood, I had this feeling of being disposable,

rejectable, not worthy, that I had to be more. And that will define, that will define your every, no one had to say anything. Although other things were said over the years, I would show up wondering if, what would I do to get to belong here, to be enough here, to be acceptable here. And that would define how I'd work, that would define how the relationships I was in. What's that old Rolls Royce song, I'd rather have a piece of you than all of nothing. I would

tolerate certain things that weren't healthy, because I didn't know that I was worth more than that. And it was a deeply ingrained belief. Some of us have had things that have happened to us that defined us before we knew what it meant to be whole. Yeah. You know? And so to bring that to Jesus was like, well, I can sing it and I can say it,

but I don't know what that means. Cause you have to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And some of it was, I mean, it was a number of things. It was a journey of freedom. It was a journey of freedom. It was a journey of thinking, okay, like you said, there's a belief system already there. We're all discipled by something. We just want to make sure it's the healthy thing. And so what it was in that instance was to say, okay, God, what do you say about me? What do you say about my beginnings? What do you say about

my middle? What do you say about my end? What do you say about my value? What do you say about my worth? And so it began with Psalm 139 and taking these, there's a particular part of it which says, I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. I know that full well. And it was me, rather than my experience shaping my theology, allowing God's word in my theology to redefine my experience, I would stand in front of a mirror and read it over every part of my body. I praise you because my eyes are fearfully and wonderfully made. I praise you because my skin is fearfully and wonderfully made. And sometimes I'd argue with God midway through and say, yeah, but I don't like that bit. Could you give me some apps? Could you

do this? And honestly, it didn't feel transformational. It didn't feel it. But just because it doesn't feel like you're being transformed doesn't mean you're not being transformed because the word is living and active and you've got to let it live and act. And so, over time, God was just working on me, working on me, working on me, working on me. I'd invite the Spirit of God to come and change my life again and I'd read these words again. And over time, He was my confidence. He was my, He writes a new story over our lives, doesn't He? And so that was my journey. And that was one of the bigger ones, but it happens in smaller things as well.

In some of the broken relationships that I've walked through, walked out of, I've often found I've needed a word to walk on. It's like, God, what from Your word can I walk with You on this? How do I invite You into this? I've often found I've needed a word to walk on. It's like, God, what from your word can I walk with you on this? How do I invite you into this? And when I'm tempted to avoid it and say I'm fine,

the Lord reminds me that you can't heal what you don't name. You're just not gonna. But for me, I found it's been a, sometimes it's felt like an army crawl walking through. Sometimes it's felt like a victory song. Sometimes it's felt really mundane. But the consistent piece in it all is that Jesus has met me again and again and again, even when I've not felt it. Okay, Jo, I have to tell you, in talking about freedom, I feel convicted because I want to talk about this reality of responsibilities. Recently, we had a women's event, it's called Hey You,

and we have it just about every other month. And this woman got up and we asked her a question about what makes her really, really happy. And she said, what makes me really, really happy if we can find the clip, we'll insert the clip in the podcast. But she says it's like my 10 children, I've got two sets of triplets and two sets of twins and being with my children makes me really really happy and my me Thought was like that sounds like stress to me that does not You know and I said as much because that's my truth I said but I'm glad that that's joy for you God knows who do you know what kind of joy of joy. I feel like a lot of women and maybe it's just myself, maybe I'm projecting, but I'm hearing a lot of women asking about balance, about leadership,

about wanting to experience progression and promotion, but also getting progression and promotion and being so worn out from all of the weight and responsibility. Yeah, how do we experience freedom and responsibility? They don't seem like they go together like responsibility is very much so giving restriction sometimes. It gives a lot of you have to you have to you have to and I think that even for myself, I noticed that I start to struggle when I start feeling like I have to have to have to all of the time and never I get to or I want to. And I'm just wondering how are you helping women in leadership experience freedom while also pursuing the depth of their calling and gifting?

Yeah, I there were there were three things that I would come to mind. One is and I'll I'll say them all then I'll go back if that's okay. One is identity, other is season, and the other is community. So when I start with identity, and this might have been the bit that you might have heard me share when I was at Bethel, I want us to remember that we're leading from a calling, not for one. We're leading from a space of God calling us. With that word, that word where God first names women, Aza, which we translate helper, we often see as a backup plan,

but it's a word which is a combination of words meaning to rescue, to save and to be strong. It's a word with military connotations. It's a verb as well as a noun meaning to protect, surround, defend and cherish. That is who you are. connotations. It's a verb as well as a noun meaning to protect, surround, defend and cherish. That is who you are. And I say that as a grounding for us as a foundation, because we will never live, love or lead beyond what we believe to be true about ourselves. And we won't lead from a place of health if we don't know the foundation. And so

that way you have with numbers, that way you have with numbers, that way you have with people, that way you have with art, with community, those fearfully and wonderfully made things God has given you and gifted you, He delighted to give you, not as concession, but because He's inviting you to join Him in the renewal of all things. It's a wonderful thing. So I often, when I'm working with leaders, say, okay, what are the identities that God gave you? And what are the ones that, what are the shoulds that you've put on yourself? The expectations that you've made part

of your leadership identity that actually aren't what God has invited you into. Because if we're gonna live in freedom, we've got to be free to say, for the word no, and free for the word yes. A yes to who you are and who you are and a no to who you're not. There are things I am not and I have no business taking them on.

And do you know what I mean? It's just not, don't do that. Don't hurt people with that mess. So I start with identity and say, do you know that you're an Aza? Do you know that God has defined you, has called you, that you're not a backup plan, that you are his main character in your story. Do you know what I mean? All that kind of stuff. Because we approach leadership differently then. The next thing I come to is season because we don't do everything all at once. You know, when we look at leaders like Emiriah in scripture, we see her saving her brother's life at one point,

we see her in another point leading the women through the wilderness in worship, another point she's described as a leader of the people, different chapters evoke different things. And so a question I often ask us to when I'm coaching or when I'm working with leaders, what season has God got you in now? What's the season? And the thing is with that, that does mean that there are limitations and opportunities in every season. Okay. But because we know who we are and we know whose we are, we can be confident to let go of certain things,

as he calls and invites. I'm not saying it's easy, but we can trust that journey. But only if you know what season you're in and that we don't project someone else's season onto somebody else. You know, we don't say, well, my season, because that's the other thing. We start kind of doing blanket seasons for everyone. You're a mom, so your life looks like this.

Your grandma's, so it must look like this. Your single, so it must look like this. Actually, what has God said about your season and is your season changing? What are the demands? You know, I live in the Minneapolis area and you do not wear summer clothes in winter here if you want to live, you know, because the snow will hurt your feet, it will beat you up. You wear what you wear for the season. And the same is true for our leading and our life. What

are we doing in this season of our lives? What does it require of us? And if we can take a step back and look at the season God's got us in, what that means for our families, and I know that not all of us choose every season. I've never chosen a grief season in my life, but that doesn't mean I haven't had many. And so I know that we don't choose every season,

but when we discover what it's in, then we can take a look and say, what are the limitations here? What are the opportunities here? What's God saying to me here? And that can help give us just a better sense of what's going on. And sometimes in scripture we see when people have a vision for something, there's that time when David wants to build a temple and God basically says, not yet and not you. And the vision was accurate, but it wasn't accurate for them. So some of our visions, some of our dreams and our passions are in seed form

and they will be made beautiful in their time. We just got to know the season, God's got us in. I don't like the not yet, not you part. Let's talk about that one. You know, I didn't like when you said that. And we just getting to know each other. So I just want to be honest. I didn't like that part. You know, because I want, I want a now and you season.

You know what I mean? Like, I feel like when I have an idea, when I see something that I believe should be happening in the earth, should be happening in my family, should be happening in my finances. I pretty much mean now and me. I don't mean when someone else gets around to it, even if that means that it's gonna add to my capacity, and I also don't wanna take anything off my plate. I want to do all of the things that I want to do

when I want to do them, and I will stretch myself, get up earlier, run myself down to the ground in order to accomplish it. And so you saying, now you didn't sit right with me and yet. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. It's really hard to let go of good things, exciting things. Wonderful. I have a child about to go to college and I'm like, what?

What are we talking? Why? I'm about to be an empty nested. This is not appropriate. This is not appropriate. She can stay here. Every so often we go up to her and say, sure, you don't want to, do you really want to go to college? Cause you can just stay here in my house. And she's like, let me go.

And so, but on one level, it's the good things we've got to give back. Sometimes they're the hardest ones. That we know you're a preacher, you're a musician, you're a leader. But on one level, it's the good things we've got to give back. Sometimes they're the hardest ones. You're a preacher, you're a musician, you're a leader. Of course you want to get on and do it, but you might need to sleep because we need you to run a marathon, not a sprint. And seasons make room for new life, new visions.

Seasons make room for letting go and release and rest and renewal. But it takes a few cycles, excuse me, it takes a few cycles for us to realize that we can trust God in the season. So in these seasons, the shifting of the seasons, the need to really embrace what is our season and what's not our season. I'm wondering, and this reminds me of a message I preached at Wal-Mani-Vov about grieving and believing, like grieving that that season is over, but also still believing that there's opportunities. I think that it's easy for us to see the limitations in a new season, especially if it's a season that we didn't ask for or a season

that we don't necessarily trust. But to see the opportunities, is there anything practical that those of us who are in these uncharted territories should be doing in order to really develop resilience to keep going in these unchartered seasons. I would encourage us, again whatever life stage, whatever life stage we're at, I want to ask you what rest looks

like for you. I want to ask you what recharging looks like for you. Even if it's a minute in the day, even if it's to step outside and take a deep breath, just to give yourself some margin. Now some of us are raising our kids and raising our grandkids and we don't have a minute. We don't have 10 minutes. So I'm going to ask you to have 30 seconds. I am going to ask you to have 30 seconds to breathe and to pause. Because what that does is it gives us the practice of just stepping back, stepping back in these uncharted waters.

You know those moments when you're just on a roll and you say the things you shouldn't, you say the things you should regret, but it's too late because we haven't had a moment. So I want to ask us, first of all, what does rest look like for you? And what is it, and sometimes we need that in community. Is there a friend who needs a break and you just need to sit with her family for an hour so she can go for a drive?

Is there a way that you can bless someone else, let them go for a coffee and they can sit in another part of the coffee shop. They just need some head space. Some of us aren't able to make decisions because our heads and hearts are so full. It's not that we don't know how to discern. There's just so much to discern. Like you said, uncharted waters, they require more time. They require more energy. So I would ask you what rest looks like just to recharge your souls. If you're fighting for your

life, you've got to restore your soul to get there. So that would be my first advice I would give. What does rest look like? I would ask, what's your cry to the Lord? What's your, and this is for those of us in crisis, actually in any time, but particularly in crisis, what's your cry to the Lord? Because sometimes we think we cried out when we haven't, like, he should know by now, yes, and he does. But I would ask you, what's your cry out to the Lord? Are you pouring out your soul? I think it's over 40% of the Psalms that are lament. 40%. And yet we would see that are so lacking in faith. There's a whole book called Lamentations. And again, some of us will navigate these unshartered waters through lament. And then for those of us who are like, I'm leading, I've got business, some of us are actually

recharged by this time and find it unsettling, but exciting. Again, I want us to have moments of pause, just to listen, because uncharted waters require an uncharted response. We don't want to rely on the yesterdays, you know? This is a moment for us to live and lead prophetically, not nostalgically. This is a moment for us to draw back and hear what God is saying. When I'm coaching leaders, I often say, pray for the wild card, the thing you didn't see coming. That's the one you need right now. The thing that causes you to depend on Him again, invite Him again.

So in this moment, when it's Uncharted waters, think of rest, think of the cry, and take a moment to hear what the uncharted response needs to be. Okay, so that's beautiful. Uncharted waters require uncharted response. You said that word discern, I wrote that down, it really resonated with me. Then you talked about having prophetic leadership, which is our ability to really respond and lead with the voice of God at the center, not our system, not our routine, not our idea of what things should be, but

I want to respond and lead in this season in a way that reflects what God wants to see happen in the earth. I can't do that without pausing. That word discernment. And you said something that we often do have the gift of discerning, we just haven't given ourselves space to discern. I don't even have a question. I just wanna say that I resonate so deeply with that because I'm in unchartered territory. I'm in an unchartered season in my life.

And this season is not three months. This season has been about two years of unchartered season in my life. And this season is not three months. This season has been about two years of unchartered season, where it's sunshine and rain and snow, and I don't even know what to call it. But I have noticed that as I have surrendered to the uncertainty, instead of trying to find certainty in the uncertainty, but rather forced myself to truly trust God in the midst of it all, that I am discovering a deeper knowledge of who he is. I'm able to hear his voice more clearly and to be excited in this moment instead of afraid. And I think to move from that posture of fear into a posture of excitement and faith and discernment, it can't happen unless we're willing to discern

and take a pause and be still. Agreed. Agreed. And I'm sorry. No, please go ahead. I was going to say the other thing I'd add about discernment as well is that we often need community. Yeah. We often need to discern with people and who are your trusted friends?

Who are your trusted, your collaborators, your people, the people who will, who can tell you about yourself when required, but will be your greatest cheerleader as well. Will they, are you inviting them into that discernment process with you? Because clarity can come when you are discerning with others as well. Because leadership needs a village.

Leadership needs a village. Raising children on your own needs a village. Raising children with your spouse needs a village. Your career needs a village. They just call it a network, but you needs a village. Raising children with your spouse needs a village. Your career needs a village. They just call it a network, but you need a village. Okay, what you said was invitation. That's like keyword, buzzword, invitation, because I already know, I can hear many people saying,

I don't have a village, I don't have a community, no one understands me. And so I just wanna disarm those who are listening from any excuses by one Saying that you may need to discern something about Your professional career that can come from someone who understands that career without knowing your whole backstory Like to ask someone in your field. Am I seeing this properly? Is there anything that I may be missing as it relates to this project's development is entirely different from having someone, you know, speaking to your life about relationships.

I believe that community based on whatever it is that we are trying to discern may come in different shapes and sizes, but each points of those communities are going to require invitation and invitation can be vulnerable for people who have built themselves up on being an island, not needing anyone or wanting to seem like they have it all together. In order for us to experience community, we have to be willing to first extend an invitation.

Yeah, and it's a risk, it is. It is a risk because people have let us down before and people have abused our trust before. And it is scary. You know, it's scary, but it is vital and it is part of the redemptive plan and purposes of God. He sets the lonely in families, he says. Okay, so I want to mind your business before we go I'm wondering what is something that God is teaching you right now That's stretching you and freeing you in unexpected ways. Oh The one that is the most humbling is I love the gym

I love the gym and I love working out and I do this thing called alpha, which is a bit like CrossFit and Just and I am terrible at it and I go every week Um, I go a few times a week and it's like Olympic lifting and deadlifts and burpees and other things And but what it's teaching me, I it's teaching me what it's like to learn again okay for me as as a leader and it's teaching me, the work I do is with women leaders or with next generation leaders. And I needed to learn again. I needed to remember what it feels like when you feel vulnerable and you're not sure you're going to make it. I

needed to remember what it feels like to try something and be embarrassed in front of other people. I needed that feeling of, oh my gosh, and where I'm just having to learn. Why did you need that? I think because as leaders we can get incredibly comfortable in the knowledge we already have and in the respect we've already been given and in the things we've already accomplished and we can plateau without realizing there is more for us. And I think again that thing that we were saying before these are uncharted waters we're in. We and it yesterday's, yesterday's devotional life isn't working for me today. Yesterday's faith isn't working for me today.

So I am needing to put myself in places where I can be stretched and reminded of something to reach for. Because my faith has always been quite physical, in some ways the workout thing, because let me tell you Sarah, I have not lost a pound. No, I haven't lost anything. I'm like, Lord, come on. I thought we were going to speed up the metabolism. No, we were just going to learn.

But what it has taught me is preparing me for the work of today, of what it, and as well as giving me opportunities to talk, chat and pray with the guys I'm working out with as well. Like it's evangelistic too. But I'm learning and it's important to learn because then we keep on seeking more. I don't want to get to a point where I'm not seeking more from Jesus, where I'm not expecting more,

or where I'm not saying, God, who am I missing? What am I missing? What else are you doing? I want to join you in what you're doing in the world. And so ironically, the workouts are helping me learn again and humble myself Okay, so that's I I have started I used to do a lot of lifting a lot of lifting and I wasn't losing any weight But I convinced myself

I'm strong as a knocks even though I haven't lost any weight and then I went to the doctor and I was like almost 200 Pounds and but I was like it's mostly muscle so I'm fine with that but then I got on the scale and it was mostly fat which was shocking for me. I was like you know the BMI is racist, it's been applied to black women because we're so muscular. So that was a good word for me though. But I started running running change my life was so random. Okay, back on track. Listen, I am wondering, running has humbled me. It has taught me so much about my endurance and my capacity, if I'm willing to push, but it has also taught me like you can

always push. So like finding that sweet spot of exertion and rest, finding a steady pace, but also pushing myself has, it has helped me and translated into other areas of my life, which has really made me, I think it's made me better in this season. I want to ask you, I know I said as we were closing, but I have like maybe two more things to ask you. What do you think is an underrated superpower of leadership that makes the difference in building teams? Saying I don't know. I think it builds trust. I think it's, I think it builds, and it invites.

I think, like, I think that I'd add one more thing. I'd say, I don't know comma rather than I don't know period. Because sometimes a lot of, I don't know and then we check out. Whereas I don't know, comma means you lean forward and it invites other people in. I don't know, I don't know everything. But who here in my team does?

Who has God given something? I don't know everything. God, what am I missing? Again, it's that what am I missing? And I sometimes, particularly those of us who were not always welcome at the table at the beginning, women, black women, and many of us, when we weren't welcome at the table at the beginning,

we felt like we had to know everything to get there. We had to learn twice as much to get half the credit. We had to show up in all kinds of ways. England did it differently, but it did it. Do you know, we had to show up in all kinds of ways. And so we have prided, and I don't mean that in a negative sense,

we have worked really hard to know as much as we can so we can show up well in our work and our leadership because we're trying to provide for our families. We're trying to look after our elders. We're trying to raise our youngers. You know what I mean? All of those things. And that's a wonderful skill.

But there are some things we don't know. And it is not a sign that we have failed because we don't know it all. It is not a sign of us. It's not a reflection of a system that didn't welcome us telling us that we should never be there just because we don't know that moment. So I think I don't know is a beautiful quality because again it offers an invitation to get others involved Okay. Okay. So this is my last question for real if every woman listening

Could walk away from this episode holding one truth about her freedom. What would you want her to know? Oh Sarah you've given me I I want to say A, B, C, D, E, F, A, A, one. My heart for every woman listening and watching of every stage of life. Shout out to my menopausal sisters because I've swept my way through this entire interview. But to every, it's not too late. All of you, teenagers, it's not too late. All of you, teenagers, it's not too late. Young women, it's not too late. Aunties, it's not too late. Sisters, it's not too late. Whatever has defined you, I don't care what he said. I don't care what he did. I know,

oh, we know, we have lived this life, but redemption is not far from you. It is not too late for you to have a new story. It is not too late. That's the thing I'd want you to know. That's so good. What you just said though, it reminds me, my mother who's gonna be 70 this year

has been unpacking really how, is what she would say, though I don't like to hear it and don't want to agree with it, but she says how she wants to really spend the rest of her life seeing it as more limited than she has in the past. And she says she wants to live it to the fullest and to say yes and to explore and to discover what God can do in this season of our life. And I think that what's so interesting is hearing my 15 year old daughter who's turning 16 looking at college and feeling like even with her grades, like, oh, it's too late to apply to this school.

I'll never be able to do this because this didn't work out. And how all of us are living with a consciousness of time without a full ownership of time. And I think that what you just said allows us to have ownership of the time. That is why we were created. When we talk about the kingdom of heaven being expanded to earth, he gave us dominion over this realm of time. And if we don't own this time and have dominion and subdue and explore, right, because part of that required exploration, then we're not really owning our time with authority. We were here to own time, not to watch it pass. So I feel like what you said is going to resonate with so many of us who are just watching the days go by. So thank you. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. Thank you. It's one it's I love what you do. I love watching. I love celebrating. I just cheer it all the way. It's it's God is doing great things. And it's marvelous to see. It's a privilege to see. Thank you. Thank see. It's a privilege to see. Thank you. Thank you, that means a lot to me. There is no wonder why Jo Saxon is the bestselling author, church consultant and leadership coach that she is.

Her humility and directness and practical insights about leadership makes her a safe space who propels others into their destiny. And I am so grateful that she was willing to share her wisdom and knowledge with us. Listen, don't let this moment pass without grabbing hold of your truth.

It's not too late and you are not behind. Listen, freedom isn't some far off dream. It's something you can walk in today, one decision at a time. I feel like Joe reminded us that discernment takes community. Leadership takes humility and freedom. It takes courage. So take what spoke to you, journal it, pray on it, or send it to your group chat,

because that's where we know all of things live. But whatever you do, don't keep living stuck when God has already called you to be free. Until next time, stay grounded, stay open, and stay ready. The next version of you is already unfolding. And God, we thank you for your plans and for the ways that your plans always supersede our own. Thank you, God, for those moments where your plan and our plan align perfectly.

It is a moment that affirms us that we are in sync with the Spirit. And in those moments where our plan and your plan don't intersect any longer, God, give us the courage, the wisdom, the trust in you to give up on our plan because we trust your plan instead. God, I'm praying for every person listening right now as they navigate this crazy world. I'm praying that you would give them sensitivity to your will, your ways, your word, your plans, your thoughts, that we would not be so consumed with the thoughts and plans of other people that we miss out on the opportunity to hear from you. God bring stillness to their hearts, stillness to their minds, that they would be able to

have peace even in a chaotic world. God, I thank you for rest coming to them. I thank you where they have been heavy laden, where they have been burdened, that they will experience rest. God, I thank you that even now they feel your presence, your peace, your power, heavy on them, but heavy in a way that makes them feel seen, loved, comforted, and stable and anchored. And I thank you that even if they stray away from this feeling, that you can bring it back to them and that it can become their state. Thank you for this time spent together.

Bless them and bless this week. In Jesus' name I pray, amen. Evolve.